Cameron must be gone within the week, leave must be made to face up to their promises. Forget labour for now, it's a side show, the lack of any idea of how Brexit is supposed to happen the country will continue to fall apart.
If leave are not ready and need Cameron to prop things up in the mean time or if Cameron is trying to buy time himself neither are acceptable.
And labour? FFS get a grip, you're not allowing the above to be the main focus, you're letting them off the hook and allowing things to drift. Stop the navel gazing narcissism.
Sigh, and to think on Thursday morning we had a country that was running along pretty smoothly.
We are in the EU until Oct 2018 at the earliest.
Why do we need to have everything topped and tailed within a week of the referendum? People are being utterly unrealistic. We might get a better sense of things after Cameron's meeting on Tuesday.
In the meantime, a lot of people should just sit quietly and huff into a paper bag for a while.
An excellent piece by Richard Tyndall. His comparison between Brexit and the post 9/11 occupations is chilling and I fear accurate. However the Leave Campaign lied and lied and lied and lied. So now we bear the consequences. Who is going to front the retreat from Suez that is EEA membership that Richard rightly identifies as the next logical step ?
So, aside from McD and Diane, who hasn't resigned? I mean seriously, there's no one of any substance left at all. On top of that, Corbyn will now have to suffer the indignity of naming a new cabinet, then repeatedly having to tweak it as yet more resignations arrive on his desk.
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
What I was told today was:
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
They are quite right. Cameron thought he could phone it in. Yep, 3 days to negotiate our future with the French? Right-oh. Perhaps we can fix third world poverty with a quick teleconf and a press-release. Asre-hole.
Tom Watson needs to put an end to this farce. A dozen have quit, and more will follow. I supported Corbyn but whilst I support his policy platform I don't support the half-arsed attempts to lead, the lack of strategy and basic political nous.
We have a stand-off between the bulk of the PLP, Progress and perhaps 80s members on one side, and the rest of the PLP, Momentum, the entire TU movement and the bulk of the membership on the other. What will happen is simple - the PLP will declare UDI, and will take their 80k members to form Progressive Labour.
We're supposed to be waiting for the Tories to split, not Labour. The party is bigger than any member. For the good of the party Corbyn must recognise his basic failings and go.
Absolutely - the left could put up another candidate. The choice does not have to be Corbyn or a "Blairite".
I would be happy with the peoples chancellor but he wouldn't get on the ballot as he would need 35 MPs and would be too likely to win for the PLP.
Thought our party believed in democracy
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 37m37 minutes ago Understand at least 30 shadow ministers set to resign tomorrow.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The British Empire was lost last century. The English Empire (Scotland, what's left of Ireland, even possibly Wales) will be lost this century.
Senior Minister [but not Sec of State - level] just canvassed my opinion over The Choice to be made in Parliament: Johnson, May or [seriously] Osborne.
Osborne? Do you think the membership would be willing to vote for a Remain candidate?
Unlikely - but possible if the Brexit candidate is too extreme.
Boris v May - Boris wins Fox v May - May wins
If May has spare votes will she do what Cameron did in 2005 - ie get a chunk of her supporters to vote Fox to get him into the Final ahead of Boris - but that'll depend on being comfortably above 110 MPs.
Do you think Leadsom has a chance? (she's my fave! )
Re Osborne he is now at 46 on BF next Tory Leader, does he have any route to the top two and then the membership deciding against Johnson? I mean, Gove who has supposed to have ruled himself out is at 32.
So, aside from McD and Diane, who hasn't resigned? I mean seriously, there's no one of any substance left at all. On top of that, Corbyn will now have to suffer the indignity of naming a new cabinet, then repeatedly having to tweak it as yet more resignations arrive on his desk.
So, aside from McD and Diane, who hasn't resigned? I mean seriously, there's no one of any substance left at all. On top of that, Corbyn will now have to suffer the indignity of naming a new cabinet, then repeatedly having to tweak it as yet more resignations arrive on his desk.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
I've raised this in the past. For 90% of the population, freedom to work in the EU is pointless, aside from the ROI - most of us don't have the language skills to make working in Italy or Germany a realistic prospect. Australia, Canada and New Zealand make a far more attractive free-movement bloc. Look at the stats: that's where British people choose to go. Because of the language issue. Which is also the main reason Europe has failed to fuse into one polity: we only ever find out second hand what most of the continent are up to or think about any given issue.
Tom Watson needs to put an end to this farce. A dozen have quit, and more will follow. I supported Corbyn but whilst I support his policy platform I don't support the half-arsed attempts to lead, the lack of strategy and basic political nous.
We have a stand-off between the bulk of the PLP, Progress and perhaps 80s members on one side, and the rest of the PLP, Momentum, the entire TU movement and the bulk of the membership on the other. What will happen is simple - the PLP will declare UDI, and will take their 80k members to form Progressive Labour.
We're supposed to be waiting for the Tories to split, not Labour. The party is bigger than any member. For the good of the party Corbyn must recognise his basic failings and go.
Absolutely - the left could put up another candidate. The choice does not have to be Corbyn or a "Blairite".
I would be happy with the peoples chancellor but he wouldn't get on the ballot as he would need 35 MPs and would be too likely to win for the PLP.
Thought our party believed in democracy
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 37m37 minutes ago Understand at least 30 shadow ministers set to resign tomorrow.
What next? Andrew Roberts? Mary Beard? That guy who does the books about Victorian sewers? There is no hope for the Crown.
The UK is finished now. Maybe it was living on borrowed time but those that voted Leave have killed the Union. Live with it!!!!
If one constituent part of the Union can't accept that there will be occasions when the other parts outvote it, then indeed it is finished.
To be fair it's happened quite bit for the Scots. You have a government very few of them voted for and has one MP out of 59. I think it would matter an awful lot less if the Scots felt grateful for the Blair/Brown years but like much of the UK they don't.
Good, what we need now is to delay exit while the EU infights and try and get the best deal possible. It is brutal to say it but we now need populists to win almost everywhere, the more chaos and anti establishment parties do well the better our relative position will be
What's become of you, HYUFD? You seem to have become a bit of a revolutionary!
We have to now, Brexit occurred and we have to put national interest first and it may be horrible to say but that would include Trump winning the US presidency and Le Pen the presidency in France
Sounds like you have eschewed the Norway or Switzerland or Canada model and have plumped instead for a direct move to the North Korean one.
No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
My point, however, was that very few countries have true sovereignty. North Korea is one. Aside from them, it is compromises and we have now exited a group where compromises where required, but which gave us unambiguous benefits, and are now in a position where we don't know what compromises we will have to make and to what benefit.
The electorate clearly decided the benefits were outweighed by the negatives, the regulations and directives etc. There is giving up some sovereignty and giving up sovereignty
A large chunk of them just crossed a box they thought said "stop all immigration"
A chunk, most Leavers did not vote to end all immigration but control it
So, aside from McD and Diane, who hasn't resigned? I mean seriously, there's no one of any substance left at all. On top of that, Corbyn will now have to suffer the indignity of naming a new cabinet, then repeatedly having to tweak it as yet more resignations arrive on his desk.
Tom Watson needs to put an end to this farce. A dozen have quit, and more will follow. I supported Corbyn but whilst I support his policy platform I don't support the half-arsed attempts to lead, the lack of strategy and basic political nous.
We have a stand-off between the bulk of the PLP, Progress and perhaps 80s members on one side, and the rest of the PLP, Momentum, the entire TU movement and the bulk of the membership on the other. What will happen is simple - the PLP will declare UDI, and will take their 80k members to form Progressive Labour.
We're supposed to be waiting for the Tories to split, not Labour. The party is bigger than any member. For the good of the party Corbyn must recognise his basic failings and go.
Absolutely - the left could put up another candidate. The choice does not have to be Corbyn or a "Blairite".
I would be happy with the peoples chancellor but he wouldn't get on the ballot as he would need 35 MPs and would be too likely to win for the PLP.
Thought our party believed in democracy
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 37m37 minutes ago Understand at least 30 shadow ministers set to resign tomorrow.
Progressive Labour think they can overturn a democratic mandate and don't even want an election.
It aint happening and when they leave they should have the bollox to trigger a by-election
Which Campaign officially ceased to exist on the 23rd.
You mean "just kidding"?
I mean the Government called the Referendum. There were two official campaigns. They ceased to exist when the votes were counted. The result was passed to the Government.
So, aside from McD and Diane, who hasn't resigned? I mean seriously, there's no one of any substance left at all. On top of that, Corbyn will now have to suffer the indignity of naming a new cabinet, then repeatedly having to tweak it as yet more resignations arrive on his desk.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
It was set out very clearly in the question what it would mean. Single Market access but a continuation of freedom of movement.
It is still only 42%. 45% said no thanks and the rest were undecided. But added to the Remain camp who were 75% in favour of the EEA if we voted to leave it is still a clear majority of all respondents.
So, aside from McD and Diane, who hasn't resigned? I mean seriously, there's no one of any substance left at all. On top of that, Corbyn will now have to suffer the indignity of naming a new cabinet, then repeatedly having to tweak it as yet more resignations arrive on his desk.
There was no one of any substance to begin with. He was fishing in the shallow end first time round to fill a shadow cabinet.
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
What I was told today was:
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
Really?! Bloody hell, I had always had him down as trying hard in a dull but earnest way and then getting nothing and trying to sell it.
It would be a faint sign that the EU had the vaguest glimmerings why it is so unpopular in so many quarters.
But he won't resign, and their shit-show will rumble on, which must - surely - give you a faint thrill of relief that we are now out of this charade of nondemocracy.
Yes London will soon be a wasteland populated mainly by racist orcs, but at least we aren't paying for Juncker's third chauffeur.
I feel my mood has switched. I went from gin to wine. Interesting.
There is much I dislike about the EU. But I preferred dealing with its many deficiencies to watching Britain visibly shrink, as it is doing now.
I feel I lost my country on Thursday. I have to reevaluate my identity now.
My consolation is that politics for the foreseeable future is going to be compulsive viewing, like a TV documentary showing emergency surgery going wrong.
So, aside from McD and Diane, who hasn't resigned? I mean seriously, there's no one of any substance left at all.
Burnham. Watson.
In other news, Berger seems very quiet. For someone who normally isn't.
If you think Burnham and Watson represent substance, then you are setting the bar very, very low indeed
I was setting the bar at "people at least some people have heard of"
Would have included the Eagles*, but they seem to be waivering.
*the band would be better** **Fun fact: the band is the Eagles, not The Eagles
I suspect Angela is holding off just so she can keep her NEC seat. Which might actually be sensible going forward as she can try to make sure the election process is fair
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
What I was told today was:
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
A year or two ago we had a disagreement about Cameron's negotiating ability.
You were convinced he knew what he was doing and I pointed out that saying you wouldn't walk away without an agreement was the way to guarantee a shit deal.
Out of curiosity what were the Foreign Office experts doing while Cameron was behaving in this manner ?
Quite. Until recently, I used to give the "moderates" the benefit of the doubt, but no longer. If they were really concerned about Labour's electability, they would be reflecting on the fact that one of the key parts of their philosophy (pro-Europeanism) was just rejected by the country on Thursday, and coming to terms with the obvious fact that sticking with it will lose the party tons of voters.
At this point, the "moderates" are clearly only interested in their own ideological obsessions, and in their own personal ambitions to have senior positions in the party. They do not care about how much they damage the chances of a Labour government in the process.
So if it's made before markets open, it won't be to Parliament but knowing Bercow, Osborne will be summoned to the Commons tomorrow, where he is bound to be asked about his future. He has to go of course but might he auto-quit for a Leaver (the ghastly Gove?) to take over. I think he should, but he won't.
Boris backtracking big time on immigration in his Telegraph column.
Buy shares in Betrayal, they are going to spike.
I don't read it that way at all. It's all just motherhood and apple pie stuff. Or have we reached a new low for pb where a mere puff-piece in a broadsheet is construed as a manifesto?
Tom Watson needs to put an end to this farce. A dozen have quit, and more will follow. I supported Corbyn but whilst I support his policy platform I don't support the half-arsed attempts to lead, the lack of strategy and basic political nous.
We have a stand-off between the bulk of the PLP, Progress and perhaps 80s members on one side, and the rest of the PLP, Momentum, the entire TU movement and the bulk of the membership on the other. What will happen is simple - the PLP will declare UDI, and will take their 80k members to form Progressive Labour.
We're supposed to be waiting for the Tories to split, not Labour. The party is bigger than any member. For the good of the party Corbyn must recognise his basic failings and go.
Absolutely - the left could put up another candidate. The choice does not have to be Corbyn or a "Blairite".
I would be happy with the peoples chancellor but he wouldn't get on the ballot as he would need 35 MPs and would be too likely to win for the PLP.
Thought our party believed in democracy
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 37m37 minutes ago Understand at least 30 shadow ministers set to resign tomorrow.
Progressive Labour think they can overturn a democratic mandate and don't even want an election.
It aint happening and when they leave they should have the bollox to trigger a by-election
What progressive Labour? Just the usual vermin that need to be expelled in order for Labour to find some peace and quiet.
It ditches Corbyn - or it splits. Pretty much as simple as that.
Will Cryer actually allow the no confidence motion to be tabled tomorrow? If not, the split might even be precipitated this week.
They may as well skip the no confidence vote and go straight to the leadership challenge.
No, they need the vote to show the depth of the unease in the PLP.
Ideally they would want to restrict the Corbyn vote to sub 35 - proving that he couldn't get nominated again (if that is what the rules actually allowed)
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
I've raised this in the past. For 90% of the population, freedom to work in the EU is pointless, aside from the ROI - most of us don't have the language skills to make working in Italy or Germany a realistic prospect. Australia, Canada and New Zealand make a far more attractive free-movement bloc. Look at the stats: that's where British people choose to go. Because of the language issue. Which is also the main reason Europe has failed to fuse into one polity: we only ever find out second hand what most of the continent are up to or think about any given issue.
As someone with family in Tasmania and a Canadian girlfriend, I'd be up for that. BTW, don't forget there'd be a Quebec issue: for instance, you have to pass a French Language exam to work there. Would we reciprocate by forcing Quebecers to take an English one?!
It ditches Corbyn - or it splits. Pretty much as simple as that.
Will Cryer actually allow the no confidence motion to be tabled tomorrow? If not, the split might even be precipitated this week.
My gut feeling is the party will move to a leadership election. But, given the strange times we live in, I can see there being a separate 'independent Labour' PLP before the end of the week.
No answer as to why Leave shouldn't try to implement their own manifesto?
Just a stab in the dark but because they aren't the government?
So the manifesto was a sham. Another Leave lie then.
How can they implement a manifesto if they aren't the government?
Perhaps you can explain.
Why did they issue it if they weren't ever intending to implement it?
Perhaps you can explain.
Because people like you kept banging on about the fact they had no plans for post Brexit in spite of us continually pointing out they would not be in power to implement those plans. So in the end they ignored the basic fact that they would not be in power and published them anyway.
And guess what, just like we all said, they are not in power and can't implement them. But you still won't shut up because you are too dumb to realise this and need to have something else to say besides crying about how you have lost your country,
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The British Empire was lost last century. The English Empire (Scotland, what's left of Ireland, even possibly Wales) will be lost this century.
Do you have rellies in Oz or Canada? They would love Free Movement with the UK, especially London.
I went to NZ the back end of last year, they like young hard working Brits of around 20-25 to stick around and do bar work and explore the country but be hard workers. Above that age they want people with qualifications to solve the brain drain and work in key industries but that is it. Free movement is not even on the cards, it is restricted and limited movement in a way they can control only.
What next? Andrew Roberts? Mary Beard? That guy who does the books about Victorian sewers? There is no hope for the Crown.
The UK is finished now. Maybe it was living on borrowed time but those that voted Leave have killed the Union. Live with it!!!!
If one constituent part of the Union can't accept that there will be occasions when the other parts outvote it, then indeed it is finished.
To be fair it's happened quite bit for the Scots. You have a government very few of them voted for and has one MP out of 59. I think it would matter an awful lot less if the Scots felt grateful for the Blair/Brown years but like much of the UK they don't.
Yes, I can see that. Perhaps the political differences are just irreconcilable.
Corbyn is genuinely unintelligent. He does not understand the damage his leadership - or, more precisely, the lack of it - is doing. It's all going way over his head.
Funny Bryant couldn't keep his own constituency from voting Leave yet he is complaining about Corbyn......at least he got his remain vote out. Same for hodge.
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
What I was told today was:
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
A year or two ago we had a disagreement about Cameron's negotiating ability.
You were convinced he knew what he was doing and I pointed out that saying you wouldn't walk away without an agreement was the way to guarantee a shit deal.
Out of curiosity what were the Foreign Office experts doing while Cameron was behaving in this manner ?
No offence to Charles, an arch Brexiteer, but unless we know who his contact was (which reasonably he won't divulge), why should we believe this account?
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The British Empire was lost last century. The English Empire (Scotland, what's left of Ireland, even possibly Wales) will be lost this century.
Wales voted Leave and given the choice of keeping the English 'Empire' but being part of the even greater EU 'Empire' English voters chose to forgo imperialism and take freedom, may not prove to be such a bad choice in the end!
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
What I was told today was:
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
Cameron bounced the referendum through because he didn't want it to have the backdrop of a migrant crisis like last year.
An autumn referendum would have allowed a better period of negotiation. A spectacular misjudgement on his part.
It ditches Corbyn - or it splits. Pretty much as simple as that.
Will Cryer actually allow the no confidence motion to be tabled tomorrow? If not, the split might even be precipitated this week.
They may as well skip the no confidence vote and go straight to the leadership challenge.
No, they need the vote to show the depth of the unease in the PLP.
Ideally they would want to restrict the Corbyn vote to sub 35 - proving that he couldn't get nominated again (if that is what the rules actually allowed)
I think they would lose momentum if they are made to wait a week.
Quite. Until recently, I used to give the "moderates" the benefit of the doubt, but no longer. If they were really concerned about Labour's electability, they would be reflecting on the fact that one of the key parts of their philosophy (pro-Europeanism) was just rejected by the country on Thursday, and coming to terms with the obvious fact that sticking with it will lose the party tons of voters.
At this point, the "moderates" are clearly only interested in their own ideological obsessions, and in their own personal ambitions to have senior positions in the party. They do not care about how much they damage the chances of a Labour government in the process.
Do you actually believe what you have just typed?
They are acting like this because they sincerely believe that there will be no Labour government with Corbyn as PM. A view shared by the majority of people in the UK.
They are fighting to save Labour as a viable force in UK politics. Corbyn is the one who is refusing to see the reality of the situation.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The British Empire was lost last century. The English Empire (Scotland, what's left of Ireland, even possibly Wales) will be lost this century.
Do you have rellies in Oz or Canada? They would love Free Movement with the UK, especially London.
I went to NZ the back end of last year, they like young hard working Brits of around 20-25 to stick around and do bar work and explore the country but be hard workers. Above that age they want people with qualifications to solve the brain drain and work in key industries but that is it. Free movement is not even on the cards, it is restricted and limited movement in a way they can control only.
Yep. NZ is not going to allow unlimited from the UK or anywhere else. Neither is Australia.
George Osborne has been offered the opportunity to be Chancellor or Foreign Secretary in Boris Johnson and Michael Gove's 'dream ticket' leadership bid, The Telegraph understands.
Good, what we need now is to delay exit while the EU infights and try and get the best deal possible. It is brutal to say it but we now need populists to win almost everywhere, the more chaos and anti establishment parties do well the better our relative position will be
What's become of you, HYUFD? You seem to have become a bit of a revolutionary!
We have to now, Brexit occurred and we have to put national interest first and it may be horrible to say but that would include Trump winning the US presidency and Le Pen the presidency in France
Hmm. German foreign minister calls for USA trops to leave Eastern Europe - says their presence is provocative.
I guess he prefers Russian troops instead?
I believe the German FM has recently visited Putin and made friendly noises. The Germans were always ambivalent about Russia - they would like to do more trade with them in spite of historically hiding behind Uncle Sam's skirts when the Ruskies threatened.
Brexit increases Russian influence, or rather reduces our influence in the Continent to Russia's benefit. Not WW3, but a nudge in the needle toward the forces of anti-democracy.
I don't see how ceasing to prevent Germany's wish (if they have one) of being friends with a huge country they share a landmass with is anti-democracy.
The huge country you talk about is a revanchist, aggressive, anti-democratic regime.
So is Turkey. But we give them diplomatic support, development aid, and ignore their 'little' foibles (I shan't even speak of Saudi Arabia). We talk in terms of trade, development and constructive engagement bringing them closer to our model. Why should the same arguments not apply to trade and development between Germany and Russia?
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
Well they aren't wrong.
I honestly still cannot understand Cameron's whole approach to the Referendum. From the timing, to the limited ambition, the short negotiation, to the dire campaign — "you are all racist, and here are some people you hate to tell you what horrible things will happen" — who the hell thought that would work?
The only reason the result wasn't even worse is that the Leave campaign was also bloody awful.
Politics in the UK is a total shambles today, the best thing that could happen would be an asteroid hitting the House of Commons so we can start from scratch.
George Osborne has been offered the opportunity to be Chancellor or Foreign Secretary in Boris Johnson and Michael Gove's 'dream ticket' leadership bid, The Telegraph understands.
Quite. Until recently, I used to give the "moderates" the benefit of the doubt, but no longer. If they were really concerned about Labour's electability, they would be reflecting on the fact that one of the key parts of their philosophy (pro-Europeanism) was just rejected by the country on Thursday, and coming to terms with the obvious fact that sticking with it will lose the party tons of voters.
At this point, the "moderates" are clearly only interested in their own ideological obsessions, and in their own personal ambitions to have senior positions in the party. They do not care about how much they damage the chances of a Labour government in the process.
It ditches Corbyn - or it splits. Pretty much as simple as that.
Will Cryer actually allow the no confidence motion to be tabled tomorrow? If not, the split might even be precipitated this week.
My gut feeling is the party will move to a leadership election. But, given the strange times we live in, I can see there being a separate 'independent Labour' PLP before the end of the week.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The British Empire was lost last century. The English Empire (Scotland, what's left of Ireland, even possibly Wales) will be lost this century.
Do you have rellies in Oz or Canada? They would love Free Movement with the UK, especially London.
I went to NZ the back end of last year, they like young hard working Brits of around 20-25 to stick around and do bar work and explore the country but be hard workers. Above that age they want people with qualifications to solve the brain drain and work in key industries but that is it. Free movement is not even on the cards, it is restricted and limited movement in a way they can control only.
Yep. NZ is not going to allow unlimited from the UK or anywhere else. Neither is Australia.
Errr... except that the 1973 Trans-Tasman Travel Arrangement allowed basically free movement of people for work between those two countries.
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
What I was told today was:
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
They are quite right. Cameron thought he could phone it in. Yep, 3 days to negotiate our future with the French? Right-oh. Perhaps we can fix third world poverty with a quick teleconf and a press-release. Asre-hole.
If what Charles has revealed is true (and I'm certainly not saying it isn't) then Cameron was never a fit person to ever be in public office.
Obviously my intention was not to belittle the deaths on all sides in the conflicts I mentioned. It was simply the fact that what was so notable about those conflicts - perhaps unlike any other I have read of before - was the lack of the exit strategy, the basic idea that it wasn't necessary to really think about what comes next because everything is bound to work out okay as long as you win. It does strike me that this appears to have been the principle followed by both camps in the referendum. It is a case of winning the war but losing the peace.
I was going to respond too to your military analogy, but thought better of it when I decided you were mainly riffing on the phrase "exit strategy" rather than saying something about those conflicts. The main point being that Britain did not win the wars in either Iraq or Afghanistan - Britain lost - and in fact did not even have a clear and realisable overall military aim. A good book on this and its ramifications is Frank Letwidge's Losing Small Wars: British Military Failure in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
Don't look at me. I voted Remain and I voted Labour last year. If Ed Milliband was PM we would still be in the EU and the £ would not be sinking towards parity against the USD.
Quite. Until recently, I used to give the "moderates" the benefit of the doubt, but no longer. If they were really concerned about Labour's electability, they would be reflecting on the fact that one of the key parts of their philosophy (pro-Europeanism) was just rejected by the country on Thursday, and coming to terms with the obvious fact that sticking with it will lose the party tons of voters.
At this point, the "moderates" are clearly only interested in their own ideological obsessions, and in their own personal ambitions to have senior positions in the party. They do not care about how much they damage the chances of a Labour government in the process.
Do you actually believe what you have just typed?
They are acting like this because they sincerely believe that there will be no Labour government with Corbyn as PM. A view shared by the majority of people in the UK.
They are fighting to save Labour as a viable force in UK politics. Corbyn is the one who is refusing to see the reality of the situation.
As, it would appear, are you.
And again, I come back to the point that these "moderates" all thought the Remain campaign was onto a winner, and that it would be a good thing for Labour to position themselves as "united in being passionately pro-EU".
If their politicial judgement was so wrong in assessing how popular the EU was with the country, why should I trust their judgement when they say other potential candidates would be more successful than Corbyn?
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The British Empire was lost last century. The English Empire (Scotland, what's left of Ireland, even possibly Wales) will be lost this century.
Do you have rellies in Oz or Canada? They would love Free Movement with the UK, especially London.
I went to NZ the back end of last year, they like young hard working Brits of around 20-25 to stick around and do bar work and explore the country but be hard workers. Above that age they want people with qualifications to solve the brain drain and work in key industries but that is it. Free movement is not even on the cards, it is restricted and limited movement in a way they can control only.
Yep. NZ is not going to allow unlimited from the UK or anywhere else. Neither is Australia.
Errr... except that the 1973 Trans-Tasman Travel Arrangement allowed basically free movement of people for work between those two countries.
Fair point! The supply of Kiwis is pretty limited though and the flow of Aussies to NZ low. Both countries have very strict rules for unskilled Brits.
I have seldom seen such excitable madness by numerous PBers on this site before. The Leave vote has left quite sensible people partly deranged.
Never mind shutting the markets, I wonder if this site should be shut for a while.
Alternatively one can shut one's eyes for a while.
The Brexit reminds me of one or two of the darker German fairy tales wherein an ogre is tricked intro stabbing itself....Or a scene from one of the Tolkien movies where a monstrous ogre storms a fortress gate by running full tilt head first into it, and then collapsing.
Quite. Until recently, I used to give the "moderates" the benefit of the doubt, but no longer. If they were really concerned about Labour's electability, they would be reflecting on the fact that one of the key parts of their philosophy (pro-Europeanism) was just rejected by the country on Thursday, and coming to terms with the obvious fact that sticking with it will lose the party tons of voters.
At this point, the "moderates" are clearly only interested in their own ideological obsessions, and in their own personal ambitions to have senior positions in the party. They do not care about how much they damage the chances of a Labour government in the process.
I lost any respect for them last summer when months before the vote came in where already publicly stating that they will try to overthrow Corbyn as soon as possible.
In the beginning I was an Yvette Cooper supporter and their own actions forced me to support Corbyn in order to kick their buts, time and time again they are infuriating me so much that I simply want them expelled.
Those people have proved that they do not and should not belong to the Labour party.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
If they are going to betray the wwc that handed them their victory there will be carnage.
Seriously, this is a section of society that thinks it has now been listened to and they will turn very nasty if denied. I mean seriously, civil unrest type nasty.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
Don't look at me. I voted Remain and I voted Labour last year. If Ed Milliband was PM we would still be in the EU and the £ would not be sinking towards parity against the USD.
Enough. The ninnies have taken over the nursery. I shall leave you all to play with the endless succession of strawmen that this site now specialises in, and hope that things are cooler tomorrow. Toodle pip!
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
Is Pakistan an Old Dominion?
New Dominion, like India.
But would have been nice if the Statute of Westminster had applied to all colonies and dominions.
I bet he's not far wrong. A lot of people are thinking and talking out of a place of shock and fear after Thursday's unexpected result. Once things settle down, appetite in Scotland for another referendum will decline and when it's called 'No' will win again. Scotland will be choosing between the UK and the EU, which will focus minds.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The British Empire was lost last century. The English Empire (Scotland, what's left of Ireland, even possibly Wales) will be lost this century.
Do you have rellies in Oz or Canada? They would love Free Movement with the UK, especially London.
I went to NZ the back end of last year, they like young hard working Brits of around 20-25 to stick around and do bar work and explore the country but be hard workers. Above that age they want people with qualifications to solve the brain drain and work in key industries but that is it. Free movement is not even on the cards, it is restricted and limited movement in a way they can control only.
Yep. NZ is not going to allow unlimited from the UK or anywhere else. Neither is Australia.
Errr... except that the 1973 Trans-Tasman Travel Arrangement allowed basically free movement of people for work between those two countries.
As a result one of the major sources of migration to Oz is from NZ. People mostly go one way.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
Don't look at me. I voted Remain and I voted Labour last year. If Ed Milliband was PM we would still be in the EU and the £ would not be sinking towards parity against the USD.
Comments
Why do we need to have everything topped and tailed within a week of the referendum? People are being utterly unrealistic. We might get a better sense of things after Cameron's meeting on Tuesday.
In the meantime, a lot of people should just sit quietly and huff into a paper bag for a while.
https://twitter.com/janinegibson/status/747170494248542208
And how many left to choose from...
The British Empire was lost last century. The English Empire (Scotland, what's left of Ireland, even possibly Wales) will be lost this century.
Unless he does the smart thing and calls whoever is left and flushes them out.
Buy shares in Betrayal, they are going to spike.
"a coup by self-entitled w***ers"...
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-26/what-team-corbyn-thinks-of-the-coup-to-topple-him/
It aint happening and when they leave they should have the bollox to trigger a by-election
Would have included the Eagles*, but they seem to be waivering.
*the band would be better**
**Fun fact: the band is the Eagles, not The Eagles
But you know that and are just being a cock.
It is still only 42%. 45% said no thanks and the rest were undecided. But added to the Remain camp who were 75% in favour of the EEA if we voted to leave it is still a clear majority of all respondents.
In Las Palmas, PP and C are duking it out over a seat.
While in Madrid, Cs are about 200 votes adrift of flipping a seat from Podemos.
Only possible remaining shift, therefore, would be to take PP + C up to 170.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/george-osborne-offered-top-job-of-foreign-secretary-by-boris-joh/
You were convinced he knew what he was doing and I pointed out that saying you wouldn't walk away without an agreement was the way to guarantee a shit deal.
Out of curiosity what were the Foreign Office experts doing while Cameron was behaving in this manner ?
At this point, the "moderates" are clearly only interested in their own ideological obsessions, and in their own personal ambitions to have senior positions in the party. They do not care about how much they damage the chances of a Labour government in the process.
Ideally they would want to restrict the Corbyn vote to sub 35 - proving that he couldn't get nominated again (if that is what the rules actually allowed)
And guess what, just like we all said, they are not in power and can't implement them. But you still won't shut up because you are too dumb to realise this and need to have something else to say besides crying about how you have lost your country,
That ends well as we know.
Ruled Out (8)
Corbyn
McDonnell
Burnham
Abbott
Trickett
Smith A
Lord Bassam
Thornberry
Not Ruled Out (11)
Eagle M
Eagle A
Smith O
Green
Watson
Winterton
Nandy
Berger
Healy
Griffith
Ashworth
[Already out: 12]
Some definite possibles on that second list...
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/labour-shadow-cabinet-resignations-jeremy-corbyn-who-has-gone (but note Bryant's gone!)
Free movement is not even on the cards, it is restricted and limited movement in a way they can control only.
A split is looking inevitable.
An autumn referendum would have allowed a better period of negotiation. A spectacular misjudgement on his part.
They are acting like this because they sincerely believe that there will be no Labour government with Corbyn as PM. A view shared by the majority of people in the UK.
They are fighting to save Labour as a viable force in UK politics. Corbyn is the one who is refusing to see the reality of the situation.
As, it would appear, are you.
I honestly still cannot understand Cameron's whole approach to the Referendum. From the timing, to the limited ambition, the short negotiation, to the dire campaign — "you are all racist, and here are some people you hate to tell you what horrible things will happen" — who the hell thought that would work?
The only reason the result wasn't even worse is that the Leave campaign was also bloody awful.
Politics in the UK is a total shambles today, the best thing that could happen would be an asteroid hitting the House of Commons so we can start from scratch.
I wonder if Jezza has a stash of Wildfire hidden under the Sept...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/
Unacceptable.
If their politicial judgement was so wrong in assessing how popular the EU was with the country, why should I trust their judgement when they say other potential candidates would be more successful than Corbyn?
The Brexit reminds me of one or two of the darker German fairy tales wherein an ogre is tricked intro stabbing itself....Or a scene from one of the Tolkien movies where a monstrous ogre storms a fortress gate by running full tilt head first into it, and then collapsing.
In the beginning I was an Yvette Cooper supporter and their own actions forced me to support Corbyn in order to kick their buts, time and time again they are infuriating me so much that I simply want them expelled.
Those people have proved that they do not and should not belong to the Labour party.
Seriously, this is a section of society that thinks it has now been listened to and they will turn very nasty if denied. I mean seriously, civil unrest type nasty.
Still got that badge
But would have been nice if the Statute of Westminster had applied to all colonies and dominions.
There are even substatial Maori communities in Z.
Sindy yes 54% no 46%