I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
Of the 4 mc middle aged scots I have spoken to it has been 2:2.
Lunch today was 5 Leave, 1 undecided.
Any feel for how things are going in your area ?
Your canvassing reports were accurate last year.
Been a co-ordinated blitz of REMAIN posters down here since Thursday, placed in prominent places. The Leave people leave them in place, whereas Remain have been ripping down and destroying a lot of LEAVE posters. Also heard of Leavers having their houses egged. Nice proponents of democracy, these Remainers.
There has been plenty of Leave leafletting of even the rural villages. Just two left to do locally. Have heard that Torquay, Paignton, Brixham are solidly Leave, whilst Totnes (with its town-twinning with Narnia) is as expected better for Remain.
I expect Leave to be comfortably ahead round here on the day.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
I am a middle aged, middle class Londoner of Glaswegian extraction. And I voted Leave.
IS there anything stopping the other EU states turning round on Friday if we vote remain and veto the so called renegotiation package
It's more likely going to be the ECJ to cause issues. As the euro-diplomat story had it in the Telegraph earlier this week, we've been offered a deal so generous, it's actually illegal. I suppose Schulz might stir up trouble in parliament....but who knows?
As I posted a few days ago, key parts require the agreement of the European Parliament and of the individual Parliaments of the other 27 countries.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
I am a middle aged, middle class Londoner of Glaswegian extraction. And I voted Leave.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
I am a middle aged, middle class Londoner of Glaswegian extraction. And I voted Leave.
Middle class? Please stop, my sides have split
I'm in trade, darling
In that case, please ensure you use the rear entrance to pb in future, my good man *draws skirts aside*
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
I think it unlikely that Leave can win, unless it is government policy to advocate Leave; and very unlikely that a government would lose a referendum, if it advocated Leave.
I also think that the government would actually have a destination in mind, which would make the whole thing a lot more honest.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
I am a middle aged, middle class Londoner of Glaswegian extraction. And I voted Leave.
Middle class? Please stop, my sides have split
I'm in trade, darling
Even peers have to work these days! If it weren't for Mr Lloyd George...
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
Of the 4 mc middle aged scots I have spoken to it has been 2:2.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
I do not think he would want to lead that coalition. He is happy to have lost the 'fruitcakes and closet racists', so would not want the UKIP ones back or the same type from Labour. I think his ideal coalition would be business-focused conservatives, Umunna-type Labour members and Clegg-type Liberal Democrats.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
I am a middle aged, middle class Londoner of Glaswegian extraction. And I voted Leave.
There has been plenty of Leave leafletting of even the rural villages. Just two left to do locally. Have heard that Torquay, Paignton, Brixham are solidly Leave, whilst Totnes (with its town-twinning with Narnia) is as expected better for Remain.
I expect Leave to be comfortably ahead round here on the day.
I was in Newton Abbot, Dartmouth and Totnes for a few days this week, staying with family (a couple with divided opinions). Very few posters of any kind - saw 3 Leave ones (one in a car), 1 Remain. Also in Penzance for half a day - saw a couple of Remain posters there, no Leave. All really about the visible intensity of a borough council election, but perhaps things are humming below the surface.
Mr. Booth, the eurozone countries seem very unlikely to do it. Which leaves... Sweden? Denmark's position to Germany is comparable to how Ireland trades with the UK, isn't it [which likely rules them out]?
They've integrated so much the pain of leaving is far higher. In a few years it'll be even worse. Then when the EU collapses, it'll be catastrophic.
It seems to me that all the countries north of the Alps would be much better off ditching the EU and joining an expanded Nordic Circle. I'd be perfectly happy with Estonia and Latvia along with the Scandinavian countries, Germany, Poland, Denmark, the Netherlands, the UK and I suspect Norway and Iceland might find that a much more appealing offer. Only four of them would even have to switch away from the Euro as well.
Maybe even the Czech Repubic and Slovakia but absolutely no Belgium, it's not even a real country.
Didn't we just once fight a pretty major war on that issue? But I know what you mean. When you have a joke of a country which can't even form a government for months on end an EU government that you don't even have to vote for must look more attractive.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
I am a middle aged, middle class Londoner of Glaswegian extraction. And I voted Leave.
Middle class? Please stop, my sides have split
I'm in trade, darling
Even peers have to work these days! If it weren't for Mr Lloyd George...
One of my cousins summed it up perfectly in the 20s:
"God has been good to our family: we have been asked to work in a manner which is not unpleasant, in which we can be of quiet service to people and which is not unrewarded in worldly terms"
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
Of the 4 mc middle aged scots I have spoken to it has been 2:2.
Lunch today was 5 Leave, 1 undecided.
A family gathering was it MM?
(Only joking!)
Included a couple of Labour-luvvies who have somehow been smuggled into the South Hams. (Both violently anti-Corbyn though.)
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
I am a middle aged, middle class Londoner of Glaswegian extraction. And I voted Leave.
Charles - just a few days ago, weren't you also referring to one of your family elders having been married to a Princess ? Middle-class .... my backside.
Anecdata: Group of three middle-aged women with young-ish families that I talked about earlier this week, with one undecided and the other two leaning one in each direction.
Now all voting remain, citing the economy mainly. This is why Remain will win safely.
Just another anecdote, the reason why I was away for a few days was that I was collecting my son from University and helping to clean the house* he has shared with seved for Leave. Straws in the wind, nothing more.
*Have you any idea the muck young people can live in? Dear God, it was appalling.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof.
Or at least that's what the reports suggest - it would be amusing if things turned out to be different to what we expect.
I believe 60:40 to Leave is entirely possible. But I think the big issue is that most of us only hang out with people like ourselves. So, we only see people with the same voted.
Of the 30 odd people in my office, I am the only Leaver. 29-1. Staggering. Our ESG analyst spends her weekends campaigning for Remain.
In NW3 I've seen perhaps 20 Remain posters, and no Leave ones.
London is a lost cause for Leave, unless Commonwealth migrants go big for Leave out of resentment for how they're treated compared to EU migrants. Most of the people I know (Kent and London) are for Remain; ironically, most of those who are migrants are for Leave though.
Is that really your experience with Kent? All my family there are voting Leave, and Vote Leave posters are very much in evidence with no sign of BSE.
I'm not in 'proper' Kent but a commuter town just outside the M25, so I expect Remain to do well here, it's a 50/50 split between Leave and Remain posters (one Leave poster was attacked with offensive graffiti, but they're wipe-clean!). I think for Kent you only need to look at the PCC elections from May - it was a straight fight between UKIP and Tory and UKIP won in the east (Men of Kent) and the Tories in the west (Kentish men). EU vote will be a similar split I think, with county's overall result Leave.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
I am a middle aged, middle class Londoner of Glaswegian extraction. And I voted Leave.
Charles - just a few days ago, weren't you also referring to one of your family elders having been married to a Princess ? Middle-class .... my backside.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
And tied up the last two years of his Premiership spent in interminable negotiations with the EU, whilst dealing with significant economic fallout and comprehensively failing to deliver the expectations of those who had voted on the back of his "leadership".
Isn't it Tuesday, but maybe if you are for leave with all the media coverage connected to Jo Cox
according to google this year its tomorrow - due to extra day in Feb
Well I didn't know that and I was born on the 29th February 1944 as V bombs were flying over our house in Manchester
Are you sure about those V1s, Big G? The first wasn't launched against the UK until June 1944 and I don't think they had the range to hit Manchester.
Somewhere in the attic I have a map of the "landing point" of every V1 that hit the UK, after the initial barrage most were to the South and South East of London, primarily due to the fine work done by the XX committee as I recall.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
Of the 4 mc middle aged scots I have spoken to it has been 2:2.
Lunch today was 5 Leave, 1 undecided.
A family gathering was it MM?
(Only joking!)
I find it it difficult to find a remainer too. Certainly where i live and areas nearby there are no remain posters. On FB there are a couple of the usual suspects. Admittedly I haven't been to a major city recently. But it all seems a bit unreal.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
I am a middle aged, middle class Londoner of Glaswegian extraction. And I voted Leave.
Charles - just a few days ago, weren't you also referring to one of your family elders having been married to a Princess ? Middle-class .... my backside.
Nah, that's my dear friend and cousin HSH Marie-Severine [she's my age and we used to hang out together as kids]
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
This was never about electoral success or party unity. This is about the establishment docking us forever to the EU, and they will do so, whatever it takes. It is really only a miracle imo that can win it for Leave now. God undoubtedly endorses Leave; he's especially against the CAP - 'Unused fields could yield plenty of food for the poor, but unjust men keep them from being farmed'. And famously in favour of the fishing industry.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof. This seems to be a very, very small base on which to find 50% of a referendum vote.
I really am convinced the polls are understating Leave by a considerable number of points. I just can't rationally find a way to explain the 50:50 split.
On today's polls Remain has the under 55s, Scotland and London and the middle-classes, not hard to get to 51% if you look!
Yes I understand what the polls are saying. What I was pointing out is that I cannot rationalise it at all. The polls do not tally with the evidence I see in front of me and I cannot find a logical way to match the polls to the real world. The polls fail a basic reasonableness test.
I would love to meet this massive group of middle aged, middle class Londoners and Scots you know who are all backing Leave because I have not met any!
I am a middle aged, middle class Londoner of Glaswegian extraction. And I voted Leave.
Charles - just a few days ago, weren't you also referring to one of your family elders having been married to a Princess ? Middle-class .... my backside.
Isn't it Tuesday, but maybe if you are for leave with all the media coverage connected to Jo Cox
according to google this year its tomorrow - due to extra day in Feb
Well I didn't know that and I was born on the 29th February 1944 as V bombs were flying over our house in Manchester
Are you sure about those V1s, Big G? The first wasn't launched against the UK until June 1944 and I don't think they had the range to hit Manchester.
Somewhere in the attic I have a map of the "landing point" of every V1 that hit the UK, after the initial barrage most were to the South and South East of London, primarily due to the fine work done by the XX committee as I recall.
I'd not vote for the man to represent me, nor would I agree with many of his views. Nonetheless an issue that he has been the chief flag-waver for is being decided by a national referendum. This is extraordinary.
Whatever the result Nigel Farage is an important man.
Anecdata: Group of three middle-aged women with young-ish families that I talked about earlier this week, with one undecided and the other two leaning one in each direction.
Now all voting remain, citing the economy mainly. This is why Remain will win safely.
Just another anecdote, the reason why I was away for a few days was that I was collecting my son from University and helping to clean the house* he has shared with seved for Leave. Straws in the wind, nothing more.
*Have you any idea the muck young people can live in? Dear God, it was appalling.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof.
Or at least that's what the reports suggest - it would be amusing if things turned out to be different to what we expect.
I believe 60:40 to Leave is entirely possible. But I think the big issue is that most of us only hang out with people like ourselves. So, we only see people with the same voted.
Of the 30 odd people in my office, I am the only Leaver. 29-1. Staggering. Our ESG analyst spends her weekends campaigning for Remain.
In NW3 I've seen perhaps 20 Remain posters, and no Leave ones.
London is a lost cause for Leave, unless Commonwealth migrants go big for Leave out of resentment for how they're treated compared to EU migrants. Most of the people I know (Kent and London) are for Remain; ironically, most of those who are migrants are for Leave though.
Is that really your experience with Kent? All my family there are voting Leave, and Vote Leave posters are very much in evidence with no sign of BSE.
I'm not in 'proper' Kent but a commuter town just outside the M25, so I expect Remain to do well here, it's a 50/50 split between Leave and Remain posters (one Leave poster was attacked with offensive graffiti, but they're wipe-clean!). I think for Kent you only need to look at the PCC elections from May - it was a straight fight between UKIP and Tory and UKIP won in the east (Men of Kent) and the Tories in the west (Kentish men). EU vote will be a similar split I think, with county's overall result Leave.
I'm surprised you think it will be 50:50; I expect Leave will do rather better than that in Bromley, which is much more susceptible to 'metropolitan' (God forbid) influences.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
And tied up the last two years of his Premiership spent in interminable negotiations with the EU, whilst dealing with significant economic fallout and comprehensively failing to deliver the expectations of those who had voted on the back of his "leadership".
Yes I can see why he didn't really want that.
He's got nothing planned for this year at all given the Queen's Speech.
Isn't it Tuesday, but maybe if you are for leave with all the media coverage connected to Jo Cox
according to google this year its tomorrow - due to extra day in Feb
Well I didn't know that and I was born on the 29th February 1944 as V bombs were flying over our house in Manchester
Are you sure about those V1s, Big G? The first wasn't launched against the UK until June 1944 and I don't think they had the range to hit Manchester.
Somewhere in the attic I have a map of the "landing point" of every V1 that hit the UK, after the initial barrage most were to the South and South East of London, primarily due to the fine work done by the XX committee as I recall.
Only on PB .
Our collective attics hold more information than t'Internet....
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
Which makes me like Cameron (and Osborne) even more. They could have gone down the sinkhole of lowest common denominator, sectional, popular racist politics for personal gain (like Boris). But instead, they have stood up for the interests of the UK and Europe- for tolerance, inclusivity and believing in a better future for all.
Whatever happens Thursday the pair of them deserve to be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for putting the collective interest over their personal careers. Bravo
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
And tied up the last two years of his Premiership spent in interminable negotiations with the EU, whilst dealing with significant economic fallout and comprehensively failing to deliver the expectations of those who had voted on the back of his "leadership".
Yes I can see why he didn't really want that.
He's got nothing planned for this year at all given the Queen's Speech.
And your point is? He's probably quite looking forward to it. Just think, instead of doing nothing he could have been spending all of his time in Brussels!
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
This was never about electoral success or party unity. This is about the establishment docking us forever to the EU, and they will do so, whatever it takes. It is really only a miracle imo that can win it for Leave now. God undoubtedly endorses Leave; he's especially against the CAP - 'Unused fields could yield plenty of food for the poor, but unjust men keep them from being farmed'. And famously in favour of the fishing industry.
Not sure about that. He thinks they should only catch two fish to feed 5000.
Isn't it Tuesday, but maybe if you are for leave with all the media coverage connected to Jo Cox
according to google this year its tomorrow - due to extra day in Feb
Well I didn't know that and I was born on the 29th February 1944 as V bombs were flying over our house in Manchester
Are you sure about those V1s, Big G? The first wasn't launched against the UK until June 1944 and I don't think they had the range to hit Manchester.
Somewhere in the attic I have a map of the "landing point" of every V1 that hit the UK, after the initial barrage most were to the South and South East of London, primarily due to the fine work done by the XX committee as I recall.
Yes - they reported the location of bombs that overshot with the time of impact of bombs that fellshort. The Gemans assumed their rockets were overshooting and reduced the average range still further.
Not nice if living in the South of London, but the densley populated streets were spared.
For an overview. A list was publish of estimated declaration times for Indyref, so I'll have a dig about to see if there's similar for EUref.
Thanks.
Looking at this I suspect that the Sunderland prediction is a bit off. The Nissan factory workers (and their family & friends) should make Sunderland more or less a dead heat or 51/2% for Leave if the country is 50-50.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
Which makes me like Cameron (and Osborne) even more. They could have gone down the sinkhole of lowest common denominator, sectional, popular racist politics for personal gain (like Boris). But instead, they have stood up for the interests of the UK and Europe- for tolerance, inclusivity and believing in a better future for all.
Whatever happens Thursday the pair of them deserve to be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for putting the collective interest over their personal careers. Bravo
If it is Remain, surely George will pick up the credit for his genius?
It's pretty clear that last Thursday's murder will be in the news all the way until polls close at 10pm this Thursday.
There is nothing Leave can do about this.
All Leave can do is acknowledge the tragedy, distance themselves from it, keep a measured and reasonable tone (this will be crucial) refocus people on the much bigger issues at stake here, and encourage people to cast their vote based upon what they believe is best for the UK's future.
I agree but I found it interesting that there was no lack of intensity from the QT audience tonight, felt exactly the same as previous events.
QT audiences are largely nominated by the local political parties (to ensure balance) and are therefore biased to keen interest. It's a mistake to think they are representative of local opinion wherever they happen to be held.
FWIW by impression is that people are genuinely sickened by the Jo Cox murder, not much bothered or positively impressed by the volume of tributes, but not linking it especially to the referendum. Which all seems fair enough to me. If Remain wins I think it will be the long-predicted oo-er-isn't-this-risky factor that punter have been expecting to show up (hence Remain's consistent lead on the markets even gainst adverse polls), and not an emotional reaction to the murder. It would be a pity if Leave effectively cried foul on that basis - whatever the result, we really need to move on, not spend time whinging about it.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
Which makes me like Cameron (and Osborne) even more. They could have gone down the sinkhole of lowest common denominator, sectional, popular racist politics for personal gain (like Boris). But instead, they have stood up for the interests of the UK and Europe- for tolerance, inclusivity and believing in a better future for all.
Whatever happens Thursday the pair of them deserve to be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for putting the collective interest over their personal careers. Bravo
Camerond and Osbourne are purely in it for self interest. To keep wages low for Osbourne and Little and whatever large business cameron gets directorships from when he is ejected from office.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
This was never about electoral success or party unity. This is about the establishment docking us forever to the EU, and they will do so, whatever it takes. It is really only a miracle imo that can win it for Leave now. God undoubtedly endorses Leave; he's especially against the CAP - 'Unused fields could yield plenty of food for the poor, but unjust men keep them from being farmed'. And famously in favour of the fishing industry.
Unbelieveable that people can actually believe this rubbish. For years anti EU people have been telling us "the establishment" have been seeking every trick in the book to avoid giving "the people" a say on our relationship with the European Union. Then finally they get the vote they've been demanding for decades and apparently it was all an Establishment plot after all.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
Which makes me like Cameron (and Osborne) even more. They could have gone down the sinkhole of lowest common denominator, sectional, popular racist politics for personal gain (like Boris). But instead, they have stood up for the interests of the UK and Europe- for tolerance, inclusivity and believing in a better future for all.
Apart from those who are working class or live in rural Britain.
It's pretty clear that last Thursday's murder will be in the news all the way until polls close at 10pm this Thursday.
There is nothing Leave can do about this.
All Leave can do is acknowledge the tragedy, distance themselves from it, keep a measured and reasonable tone (this will be crucial) refocus people on the much bigger issues at stake here, and encourage people to cast their vote based upon what they believe is best for the UK's future.
I agree but I found it interesting that there was no lack of intensity from the QT audience tonight, felt exactly the same as previous events.
QT audiences are largely nominated by the local political parties (to ensure balance) and are therefore biased to keen interest. It's a mistake to think they are representative of local opinion wherever they happen to be held.
FWIW by impression is that people are genuinely sickened by the Jo Cox murder, not much bothered or positively impressed by the volume of tributes, but not linking it especially to the referendum. Which all seems fair enough to me. If Remain wins I think it will be the long-predicted oo-er-isn't-this-risky factor that punter have been expecting to show up (hence Remain's consistent lead on the markets even gainst adverse polls), and not an emotional reaction to the murder. It would be a pity if Leave effectively cried foul on that basis - whatever the result, we really need to move on, not spend time whinging about it.
Anecdata: Group of three middle-aged women with young-ish families that I talked about earlier this week, with one undecided and the other two leaning one in each direction.
Now all voting remain, citing the economy mainly. This is why Remain will win safely.
Just another anecdote, the reason why I was away for a few days was that I was collecting my son from University and helping to clean the house* he has shared with seved for Leave. Straws in the wind, nothing more.
*Have you any idea the muck young people can live in? Dear God, it was appalling.
I'm still struggling to find where the Remain vote is going to come from.
From all the comments I've seen in various places and the news coverage of the debate, it seems Remain has middle-aged mothers, the hard left and the liberal yoof.
Or at least that's what the reports suggest - it would be amusing if things turned out to be different to what we expect.
I believe 60:40 to Leave is entirely possible. But I think the big issue is that most of us only hang out with people like ourselves. So, we only see people with the same voted.
Of the 30 odd people in my office, I am the only Leaver. 29-1. Staggering. Our ESG analyst spends her weekends campaigning for Remain.
In NW3 I've seen perhaps 20 Remain posters, and no Leave ones.
Is that really your experience with Kent? All my family there are voting Leave, and Vote Leave posters are very much in evidence with no sign of BSE.
I'm not in 'proper' Kent but a commuter town just outside the M25, so I expect Remain to do well here, it's a 50/50 split between Leave and Remain posters (one Leave poster was attacked with offensive graffiti, but they're wipe-clean!). I think for Kent you only need to look at the PCC elections from May - it was a straight fight between UKIP and Tory and UKIP won in the east (Men of Kent) and the Tories in the west (Kentish men). EU vote will be a similar split I think, with county's overall result Leave.
I'm surprised you think it will be 50:50; I expect Leave will do rather better than that in Bromley, which is much more susceptible to 'metropolitan' (God forbid) influences.
Well yes ...... unless LEAVE wins areas like Bromley, it stands no chance at all, the same applies to LB of Wandsworth where I live. But these are not typical London Boroughs.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
Which makes me like Cameron (and Osborne) even more. They could have gone down the sinkhole of lowest common denominator, sectional, popular racist politics for personal gain (like Boris). But instead, they have stood up for the interests of the UK and Europe- for tolerance, inclusivity and believing in a better future for all.
Apart from those who are working class or live in rural Britain.
The people its fashionable to hate.
I'm sure all those loyal Labour voters are warming the cockles of their hearts.
Isn't it Tuesday, but maybe if you are for leave with all the media coverage connected to Jo Cox
according to google this year its tomorrow - due to extra day in Feb
Well I didn't know that and I was born on the 29th February 1944 as V bombs were flying over our house in Manchester
Are you sure about those V1s, Big G? The first wasn't launched against the UK until June 1944 and I don't think they had the range to hit Manchester.
Somewhere in the attic I have a map of the "landing point" of every V1 that hit the UK, after the initial barrage most were to the South and South East of London, primarily due to the fine work done by the XX committee as I recall.
Indeed.
I believe there were people evacuated from southern England to Manchester in the summer of 1944 for this reason.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
Which makes me like Cameron (and Osborne) even more. They could have gone down the sinkhole of lowest common denominator, sectional, popular racist politics for personal gain (like Boris). But instead, they have stood up for the interests of the UK and Europe- for tolerance, inclusivity and believing in a better future for all.
Whatever happens Thursday the pair of them deserve to be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for putting the collective interest over their personal careers. Bravo
Their personal careers lie aboard the Brussels gravy train. Stay in the EU, and it doesn't matter if their UK reputation is about level with bowel cancer, they will be handsomely rewarded. See Neil Kinnock. Win for Leave; all they'd get is a few more years at Westminster, and on to the internationalist shit list. There's only one selfless option there, and it isn't Remain.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
It's pretty clear that last Thursday's murder will be in the news all the way until polls close at 10pm this Thursday.
There is nothing Leave can do about this.
All Leave can do is acknowledge the tragedy, distance themselves from it, keep a measured and reasonable tone (this will be crucial) refocus people on the much bigger issues at stake here, and encourage people to cast their vote based upon what they believe is best for the UK's future.
I agree but I found it interesting that there was no lack of intensity from the QT audience tonight, felt exactly the same as previous events.
QT audiences are largely nominated by the local political parties (to ensure balance) and are therefore biased to keen interest. It's a mistake to think they are representative of local opinion wherever they happen to be held.
FWIW by impression is that people are genuinely sickened by the Jo Cox murder, not much bothered or positively impressed by the volume of tributes, but not linking it especially to the referendum. Which all seems fair enough to me. If Remain wins I think it will be the long-predicted oo-er-isn't-this-risky factor that punter have been expecting to show up (hence Remain's consistent lead on the markets even gainst adverse polls), and not an emotional reaction to the murder. It would be a pity if Leave effectively cried foul on that basis - whatever the result, we really need to move on, not spend time whinging about it.
That doesn't make sense. Leave were ahead in the polling average last week yet there has been swingback to Remain in the poll afterwards. As a Remain supporter I have been appalled by the lack of delay in the vote. We had an extra two days for voter registration when it was suspended for an hour. Now there is no delay in the vote despite a suspension of campaigning for three days. The way Cameron exploited the poor woman's death in his last column was beyond tasteless.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
This was never about electoral success or party unity. This is about the establishment docking us forever to the EU, and they will do so, whatever it takes. It is really only a miracle imo that can win it for Leave now. God undoubtedly endorses Leave; he's especially against the CAP - 'Unused fields could yield plenty of food for the poor, but unjust men keep them from being farmed'. And famously in favour of the fishing industry.
Unbelieveable that people can actually believe this rubbish. For years anti EU people have been telling us "the establishment" have been seeking every trick in the book to avoid giving "the people" a say on our relationship with the European Union. Then finally they get the vote they've been demanding for decades and apparently it was all an Establishment plot after all.
Sorry who's been saying all this? Remainers winning the imaginary arguments in their head again.
I notice that gove has nothing to do with the big Wembley debate, either on stage or the additional commentators role. I wonder why? He doesn't seemed to have been involved with any of the debates.
I notice that gove has nothing to do with the big Wembley debate, either on stage or the additional commentators role. I wonder why? He doesn't seemed to have been involved with any of the debates.
Leave are sticking with the trio who did so well last time. Remain are bringing in a new team.
Isn't it Tuesday, but maybe if you are for leave with all the media coverage connected to Jo Cox
according to google this year its tomorrow - due to extra day in Feb
Well I didn't know that and I was born on the 29th February 1944 as V bombs were flying over our house in Manchester
Are you sure about those V1s, Big G? The first wasn't launched against the UK until June 1944 and I don't think they had the range to hit Manchester.
Somewhere in the attic I have a map of the "landing point" of every V1 that hit the UK, after the initial barrage most were to the South and South East of London, primarily due to the fine work done by the XX committee as I recall.
Yes - my sister said how she held my hand under a steel table as one stopped above the house and landed nearby killing six. It probably was the summer of 1944 but I was a bit too young to remember to be fair
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
And question 2?
Question 2 is even more obvious that I can't actually believe it's been asked.
It won't matter to us because we won't be part of it.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
I don't quite know why people get their knickers in a twist about a European army? It is perfectly logical to have one to deal with global issues.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
Which makes me like Cameron (and Osborne) even more. They could have gone down the sinkhole of lowest common denominator, sectional, popular racist politics for personal gain (like Boris). But instead, they have stood up for the interests of the UK and Europe- for tolerance, inclusivity and believing in a better future for all.
Apart from those who are working class or live in rural Britain.
The people its fashionable to hate.
I'm sure all those loyal Labour voters are warming the cockles of their hearts.
Labour's strongest voters are now middle class metropolitans.
They tend to have no liking for the working class or rural Britain either.
He misspoke I'm sure. It must be bloody difficult to think on your feet in that environment. I have not time for the guy, but he's not actually the devil incarnate. Don't forget he's got previous - mixing up deficit with debt. Happens to us all.
Isn't it Tuesday, but maybe if you are for leave with all the media coverage connected to Jo Cox
according to google this year its tomorrow - due to extra day in Feb
Well I didn't know that and I was born on the 29th February 1944 as V bombs were flying over our house in Manchester
Are you sure about those V1s, Big G? The first wasn't launched against the UK until June 1944 and I don't think they had the range to hit Manchester.
Somewhere in the attic I have a map of the "landing point" of every V1 that hit the UK, after the initial barrage most were to the South and South East of London, primarily due to the fine work done by the XX committee as I recall.
Yes - my sister said how she held my hand under a steel table as one stopped above the house and landed nearby killing six. It probably was the summer of 1944 but I was a bit too young to remember to be fair
The attack was on Xmas Eve 1944. Most of the 31 V1s fell in sparsely populated areas, but people were killed in Oldham and Didsbury.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
And question 2?
Question 2 is even more obvious that I can't actually believe it's been asked.
It won't matter to us because we won't be part of it.
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we remain in the EU (although we may have a say in the extent of its operations).
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we leave the EU.
And of course it has the potential to matter to us. As Benedict White pointed out, the major objection to it would be any effect it has on Nato. But if we have such grounds for objection, being out of the EU wouldn't help us.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
I don't quite know why people get their knickers in a twist about a European army? It is perfectly logical to have one to deal with global issues.
You don't see the issue with transferring coercive power to an executive we don't elect?
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
And question 2?
If the EU wishes to establish an EU army after Britain left, that's their business.
We could choose to cooperate with it where we agreed, and not to do so where we disagreed.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
And question 2?
Question 2 is even more obvious that I can't actually believe it's been asked.
It won't matter to us because we won't be part of it.
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we remain in the EU (although we may have a say in the extent of its operations).
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we leave the EU.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
I don't quite know why people get their knickers in a twist about a European army? It is perfectly logical to have one to deal with global issues.
I don't give two hoots whether there's an EU army or not. However, to the rather paranoid, this is another symbol that the EU considers itself a unitary state. It wants a unitary foreign policy, we all know that war is ultima ratio regnum, hence people take alarm.
The only issue for me is its command and control. If it's within NATO structures, no shits given. Outside, the Yanks will go very quietly ballistic.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
And question 2?
Question 2 is even more obvious that I can't actually believe it's been asked.
It won't matter to us because we won't be part of it.
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we remain in the EU (although we may have a say in the extent of its operations).
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we leave the EU.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
And question 2?
Question 2 is even more obvious that I can't actually believe it's been asked.
It won't matter to us because we won't be part of it.
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we remain in the EU (although we may have a say in the extent of its operations).
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we leave the EU.
And of course it has the potential to matter to us. As Benedict White pointed out, the major objection to it would be any effect it has on Nato. But if we have such grounds for objection, being out of the EU wouldn't help us.
Yet there were already plans to 'share' an aircraft carrier with the French. I mean sorry wtf? What is that if it's not military procurement on the basis of an amalgamation of forces in the medium term?
Isn't it Tuesday, but maybe if you are for leave with all the media coverage connected to Jo Cox
according to google this year its tomorrow - due to extra day in Feb
Well I didn't know that and I was born on the 29th February 1944 as V bombs were flying over our house in Manchester
Are you sure about those V1s, Big G? The first wasn't launched against the UK until June 1944 and I don't think they had the range to hit Manchester.
Somewhere in the attic I have a map of the "landing point" of every V1 that hit the UK, after the initial barrage most were to the South and South East of London, primarily due to the fine work done by the XX committee as I recall.
Yes - my sister said how she held my hand under a steel table as one stopped above the house and landed nearby killing six. It probably was the summer of 1944 but I was a bit too young to remember to be fair
The attack was on Xmas Eve 1944. Most of the 31 V1s fell in sparsely populated areas, but people were killed in Oldham and Didsbury.
Lets get the nett cost of being in the EU (£140m per week) into perspective - this cost is about £2 a week for the each of the approx 70 million of us living in the UK. I do not buy the Sun, Express or Daily Mail but I am told the cost per week for taking any of these "admirable organs" is considerably more than this. So why are some people so upset about the amount of money we are currently paying to the EU? I wonder how many new hospitals could be built with the amount of money that people could save if they stopped buying these newspapers?
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
And question 2?
Question 2 is even more obvious that I can't actually believe it's been asked.
It won't matter to us because we won't be part of it.
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we remain in the EU (although we may have a say in the extent of its operations).
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we leave the EU.
And of course it has the potential to matter to us. As Benedict White pointed out, the major objection to it would be any effect it has on Nato. But if we have such grounds for objection, being out of the EU wouldn't help us.
I am going to muddy the waters a bit and suggest that Britain might decide to opt in if it remains in the EU on the basis that it is better to be inside the tent than outside it.
I assume Britain's real objection to an EU army is that cuts across its old diplomatic objective: "Keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down". So they don't want an EU army that is separate from NATO. But the Germans are pushing for it with strong American support. So it's almost certainly going to happen. Britain could set the parameters and lead from within.
If we leave the EU, it will go ahead without us. NATO will be the US, the EU and some bits and pieces. We would be one of the bits and pieces.
This is another example in the EU referendum debate where rhetoric gets in the way of discussing the real issues. Immigration is another. Cameron was back on Question Time defending his sub 100 000 immigrants "aspiration". So then someone says that leaving the EU will sort that out. No it won't. No-one is honest about why we do things
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
I don't quite know why people get their knickers in a twist about a European army? It is perfectly logical to have one to deal with global issues.
And to put down internal dissent. Something the Chinese are past masters at.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
I don't quite know why people get their knickers in a twist about a European army? It is perfectly logical to have one to deal with global issues.
I don't give two hoots whether there's an EU army or not. However, to the rather paranoid, this is another symbol that the EU considers itself a unitary state. It wants a unitary foreign policy, we all know that war is ultima ratio regnum, hence people take alarm.
The only issue for me is its command and control. If it's within NATO structures, no shits given. Outside, the Yanks will go very quietly ballistic.
*edited after arrest by the Apostrophe Police*
That clip posted above was rather thought-provoking. In the same way as the courts in any member country are now obliged to put EU laws above their own parliament's legislation, the EU army could, conceivably, end up enforcing EU policy in a member state that disagrees.
Just imagine if Cameron had fought for Leave against the wringing wet pacifism of Corbyn's Remain stance. It would have been a Leave landslide, consigned Labour to oblivion, and Cameron would have gone down in history as a great PM. Instead, he will end up as one of the most reviled, in equal measure on all sides. Now we all know why he publically announced his stepping down before 2020.
It's quite incredible. He's have walked it, could claim to stand for democracy and sovereignty and have taken 80% or more of Tory MPs, most members and voters with him - as well as a huge chunk of social conservative Labour supporters/killed off Kippers' reason d'etre.
And tied up the last two years of his Premiership spent in interminable negotiations with the EU, whilst dealing with significant economic fallout and comprehensively failing to deliver the expectations of those who had voted on the back of his "leadership".
Yes I can see why he didn't really want that.
He's got nothing planned for this year at all given the Queen's Speech.
1) Clarify exactly why you object to the concept of an (opt in) EU army? 2) How would the UK leaving the EU make any difference to the establishment of said EU army?
I have no objection to European countries cooperating pan-Europe on defence. But, if so, that should only be done through multilateral agreement by national parliaments.
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
I don't quite know why people get their knickers in a twist about a European army? It is perfectly logical to have one to deal with global issues.
It isn't to deal with global issues but as juncker puts it:
"To deal with threats to peace in member states or neighbouring countries"
I wonder what he means by that. What ever it is, I do not like it.
Comments
There has been plenty of Leave leafletting of even the rural villages. Just two left to do locally. Have heard that Torquay, Paignton, Brixham are solidly Leave, whilst Totnes (with its town-twinning with Narnia) is as expected better for Remain.
I expect Leave to be comfortably ahead round here on the day.
So young,RIP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_solstice
For a politician being laughed at is the pits.
Come on LEAVE!
(Only joking!)
In any case it's a bit naff.
"God has been good to our family: we have been asked to work in a manner which is not unpleasant, in which we can be of quiet service to people and which is not unrewarded in worldly terms"
Yes I can see why he didn't really want that.
For an overview. A list was publish of estimated declaration times for Indyref, so I'll have a dig about to see if there's similar for EUref.
Somewhere in the attic I have a map of the "landing point" of every V1 that hit the UK, after the initial barrage most were to the South and South East of London, primarily due to the fine work done by the XX committee as I recall.
I'd not vote for the man to represent me, nor would I agree with many of his views. Nonetheless an issue that he has been the chief flag-waver for is being decided by a national referendum. This is extraordinary.
Whatever the result Nigel Farage is an important man.
Whatever happens Thursday the pair of them deserve to be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for putting the collective interest over their personal careers. Bravo
Not nice if living in the South of London, but the densley populated streets were spared.
FWIW by impression is that people are genuinely sickened by the Jo Cox murder, not much bothered or positively impressed by the volume of tributes, but not linking it especially to the referendum. Which all seems fair enough to me. If Remain wins I think it will be the long-predicted oo-er-isn't-this-risky factor that punter have been expecting to show up (hence Remain's consistent lead on the markets even gainst adverse polls), and not an emotional reaction to the murder. It would be a pity if Leave effectively cried foul on that basis - whatever the result, we really need to move on, not spend time whinging about it.
The people its fashionable to hate.
Are you new to the Internet or something?
To let one be established under the powers of the EU treaties to an EU that has legal identity to promote its foreign policy and support its 'power projection' is very different.
I should have thought the difference was obvious
I believe there were people evacuated from southern England to Manchester in the summer of 1944 for this reason.
BBC Reality Check
Not quite. EU migrants can claim unemployment benefit after 3 months https://t.co/NFkPPCLQKK #bbcqt #EUref https://t.co/4rTJzHjp29
Look out for the government debt as a percentage of GDP.
In 2010 Osborne told us it would be 67% and falling now.
Last July Osborne told us it would be 79% and falling now.
Last month it stood at 83.3%:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/hf6x
I wonder if Osborne will maintain his interest in emergency budgets for covering financial black holes ?
It won't matter to us because we won't be part of it.
They tend to have no liking for the working class or rural Britain either.
They were launched from Heinkels flying over the North Sea.
http://aircrashsites.co.uk/air-raids-bomb-sites/luftwaffe-v1-attack-on-manchester-christmas-eve-1944/
We won't be part of an opt-in EU army if we leave the EU.
And of course it has the potential to matter to us. As Benedict White pointed out, the major objection to it would be any effect it has on Nato. But if we have such grounds for objection, being out of the EU wouldn't help us.
Come back when you've thought about it.
Scaremongering' David Cameron repeats claim Isis want Brexit in BBC debate https://t.co/T3znIJy9Yt https://t.co/uQwDFTpSyC
We could choose to cooperate with it where we agreed, and not to do so where we disagreed.
Yeah right.
The only issue for me is its command and control. If it's within NATO structures, no shits given. Outside, the Yanks will go very quietly ballistic.
*edited after arrest by the Apostrophe Police*
I assume Britain's real objection to an EU army is that cuts across its old diplomatic objective: "Keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down". So they don't want an EU army that is separate from NATO. But the Germans are pushing for it with strong American support. So it's almost certainly going to happen. Britain could set the parameters and lead from within.
If we leave the EU, it will go ahead without us. NATO will be the US, the EU and some bits and pieces. We would be one of the bits and pieces.
This is another example in the EU referendum debate where rhetoric gets in the way of discussing the real issues. Immigration is another. Cameron was back on Question Time defending his sub 100 000 immigrants "aspiration". So then someone says that leaving the EU will sort that out. No it won't. No-one is honest about why we do things
"To deal with threats to peace in member states or neighbouring countries"
I wonder what he means by that. What ever it is, I do not like it.