The membership fee for the EU is completely irrelevant to the argument of whether we should be in the EU or not. If you are opposed to membership even £1 is too much, but the amount is not your reason to leave. If you are in favour, the cost is what it is - not insignificant but as a small percentage of the total budget what you expect for that sort of thing. The cost would only come into play if you see the EU as a nice to have, but not especially important - like our membership of the World Tourism Organisation. I don't imagine there are very many people in that camp.
I know people don't rationalise in that logical way. Nevertheless, I doubt the cost of membership is that salient. At most it will be "and another thing". I was surprised that Leave led on this as their key argument, mentioning it four times in their one pager.
I disagree. If it were £1 or £100 or even £1,000,000 then you would have a point. The amount is insignificant. But when you are taking about £15 billion a year that is a substantial amount of money which can be put to better use.
It also perverts our own funding of services and causes because the money we do get back usually has a requirement for matched funding and the decision on where it is spent is not our own. As a result the Government can end up spending even more money in areas it doesn't necessarily agree with or face claims it is rejecting 'EU money'.
Ooh, a possible defection. Not sure how this works for a referendum though, she's been quite forthright about her Leave views, contrary to her party's leadership - if she turns up tomorrow morning going on about "Nigel Farage's Little England" she'll just look stupid.
I'm quite happy to give lessons to Leavers on how to deal with defectors.
I was the model of restraint and rationality when Mark Reckless defected to UKIP.
LOL. That TPD, we remember!
Favourite moment last May, Reckless or Balls?
Reckless. I've always kinda like Ed Balls on some levels.
Shows how brutal politics is. On May 7th last year at 9.59pm Ed Balls was thinking he might be Chancellor of the Exchequer in the morning. turns out he ended up being unemployed in the morning.
I just hope the bickering will die down reasonably quickly, otherwise I shall have to forsake PB, which is one of my minor pleasures, and thus, a small shame.
On this point I agree entirely, and commend your reasonable approach
I actually think that Vote Leave are justified in using the gross figure, but I can certainly see the objections to it.
What I can't understand is, why would that make someone decide to switch sides (if that is what she is going to do)?
I can't see an objection that holds water.
If you were to ask me how much tax I pay, I'd give you the gross figure, not the figure minus the value of services I receive in return.
Net of rebate is the correct figure to use.
Agreed. I have never for the life of me been able to work out why Leave went with the amount including he rebate when using the gross without the rebate is entirely justified and would still equal £288 million a week. It is a bullet proof figure and still sounds like a vast amount of money.
Precisely the point. Anything that eats your opposition saying 'but it's only 280m a week' is helpful.
If you can get the opposition and the media to do your campaigning for you even when they are trying to attack you, you're not losing.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
I can report that the Wye Valley is a pretty solid 'Leave', which will surprise precisely no one.
That's going to get the WWC voters going isn't it. Don't vote for Farage and higher wages, vote for the chancellor who has been mean and divisive in government for years....
Ooh, a possible defection. Not sure how this works for a referendum though, she's been quite forthright about her Leave views, contrary to her party's leadership - if she turns up tomorrow morning going on about "Nigel Farage's Little England" she'll just look stupid.
I'm quite happy to give lessons to Leavers on how to deal with defectors.
I was the model of restraint and rationality when Mark Reckless defected to UKIP.
LOL. That TPD, we remember!
Favourite moment last May, Reckless or Balls?
Reckless. I've always kinda like Ed Balls on some levels.
Shows how brutal politics is. On May 7th last year at 9.59pm Ed Balls was thinking he might be Chancellor of the Exchequer in the morning. turns out he ended up being unemployed in the morning.
And now you have taken on the mantle of TPD yourself. How the mighty have fallen.
Ooh, a possible defection. Not sure how this works for a referendum though, she's been quite forthright about her Leave views, contrary to her party's leadership - if she turns up tomorrow morning going on about "Nigel Farage's Little England" she'll just look stupid.
I'm quite happy to give lessons to Leavers on how to deal with defectors.
I was the model of restraint and rationality when Mark Reckless defected to UKIP.
LOL. That TPD, we remember!
Favourite moment last May, Reckless or Balls?
Reckless. I've always kinda like Ed Balls on some levels.
Shows how brutal politics is. On May 7th last year at 9.59pm Ed Balls was thinking he might be Chancellor of the Exchequer in the morning. turns out he ended up being unemployed in the morning.
Yes, politics can be a brutal game. I think Balls got the bigger cheer at the party I was at that morning, but thinking back Reckless was the one we were most happy to see shoved off the green benches on his fat sorry arse.
Ooh, a possible defection. Not sure how this works for a referendum though, she's been quite forthright about her Leave views, contrary to her party's leadership - if she turns up tomorrow morning going on about "Nigel Farage's Little England" she'll just look stupid.
I'm quite happy to give lessons to Leavers on how to deal with defectors.
I was the model of restraint and rationality when Mark Reckless defected to UKIP.
LOL. That TPD, we remember!
Favourite moment last May, Reckless or Balls?
Reckless. I've always kinda like Ed Balls on some levels.
Shows how brutal politics is. On May 7th last year at 9.59pm Ed Balls was thinking he might be Chancellor of the Exchequer in the morning. turns out he ended up being unemployed in the morning.
And now you have taken on the mantle of TPD yourself. How the mighty have fallen.
Vote Leave arguing amongst themselves whether it is £350m or £200m seems really poor...
... for Remain who look bad (either way) while this is in the news.
You do have a point, but it also makes Leave look innumerate.
Innumerate?
Take a look at the Tories' immigration commitment; makes Leave look like financial accountants.
Exxon's accountants perhaps. I am first in the line to criticise the duplicitous tens of thousands pledge but that was duplicitous and this is politics. Worse than that is to look incompetent.
LauraK Osborne now claiming immigration down to tens of thousands was an 'ambition' - it was a manifesto commitment
Yes, if you read the Conservative Manifesto for 2015 it actually says:
"We will; keep our ambition of delivering annual net migration in the tens of thousands, ...."
But they missed out the following sentence '....but do nothing to actually achieve it, base a large part of our economic plan on increased migration and state that we want Turkey to join the EU'.
No, it doesn't. I haven't and won't embrace any such thing, even if it exists outside someone's head.
What is said on Twitter is someone's personal view and worth not a lot. I really don't understand why you re-post so many such opinions on here. In my twitter feed I regularly get stuff from someone who calls themself CatFoodBreath and posts about Squeaky Toy Smackdown, Elephants in the Hallway, and other cat like activities. They have the same relevance in forming my opinion as the stuff you re-post.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
I can report that the Wye Valley is a pretty solid 'Leave', which will surprise precisely no one.
What's pretty solid? Over 60%?
Easily. It helps that our local MP (David Davies) is a long standing BOOer - he was returned with an increased majority last election. We seem to quite like him round here, and why not? He's a good bloke, works hard.
Ooh, a possible defection. Not sure how this works for a referendum though, she's been quite forthright about her Leave views, contrary to her party's leadership - if she turns up tomorrow morning going on about "Nigel Farage's Little England" she'll just look stupid.
I'm quite happy to give lessons to Leavers on how to deal with defectors.
I was the model of restraint and rationality when Mark Reckless defected to UKIP.
LOL. That TPD, we remember!
Favourite moment last May, Reckless or Balls?
Reckless. I've always kinda like Ed Balls on some levels.
Shows how brutal politics is. On May 7th last year at 9.59pm Ed Balls was thinking he might be Chancellor of the Exchequer in the morning. turns out he ended up being unemployed in the morning.
Yes, politics can be a brutal game. I think Balls got the bigger cheer at the party I was at that morning, but thinking back Reckless was the one we were most happy to see shoved off the green benches on his fat sorry arse.
I know someone who was at Matthew Parker Street on election night, he said the biggest cheers of the night were the following
1) Reckless losing 2) Cable losing 3) Nuneaton result 4) Ed Balls losing
This is now Remain's campaign message and in particular DC and GO. Must be result of focus group but if sticks will not be good for leave
There were a couple of "Nigel Farage's Little England" from DC at PMQs today. It's obviously a focus grouped line that NF is unpopular with swing voters, and Remain think that if they push the line it might stop a few waverers from voting Leave. Expect to hear it every day for the next fortnight.
Ooh, a possible defection. Not sure how this works for a referendum though, she's been quite forthright about her Leave views, contrary to her party's leadership - if she turns up tomorrow morning going on about "Nigel Farage's Little England" she'll just look stupid.
I'm quite happy to give lessons to Leavers on how to deal with defectors.
I was the model of restraint and rationality when Mark Reckless defected to UKIP.
LOL. That TPD, we remember!
Favourite moment last May, Reckless or Balls?
Reckless. I've always kinda like Ed Balls on some levels.
Shows how brutal politics is. On May 7th last year at 9.59pm Ed Balls was thinking he might be Chancellor of the Exchequer in the morning. turns out he ended up being unemployed in the morning.
Yes, politics can be a brutal game. I think Balls got the bigger cheer at the party I was at that morning, but thinking back Reckless was the one we were most happy to see shoved off the green benches on his fat sorry arse.
I know someone who was at Matthew Parker Street on election night, he said the biggest cheers of the night were the following
1) Reckless losing 2) Cable losing 3) Nuneaton result 4) Ed Balls losing
Counterfactual - Balls led Labour Party might be 20 points ahead in the polls right now.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
I can report that the Wye Valley is a pretty solid 'Leave', which will surprise precisely no one.
What's pretty solid? Over 60%?
Easily. It helps that our local MP (David Davies) is a long standing BOOer - he was returned with an increased majority last election. We seem to quite like him round here, and why not? He's a good bloke, works hard.
That's great to hear.
My concern is that while we will win areas on 60%, Remain will win inner North London and part of Scotland by 70%. We need to win in far more local authorities to make up the difference.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
Well enough.
Come on, don't be a snide tease like TSE! Spill...
This is now Remain's campaign message and in particular DC and GO. Must be result of focus group but if sticks will not be good for leave
There were a couple of "Nigel Farage's Little England" from DC at PMQs today. It's obviously a focus grouped line that NF is unpopular with swing voters, and Remain think that if they push the line it might stop a few waverers from voting Leave. Expect to hear it every day for the next fortnight.
Be interesting if other leading remainers use their own version and increase the narrative that leave is represented by Farage and his not so popular views
Ooh, a possible defection. Not sure how this works for a referendum though, she's been quite forthright about her Leave views, contrary to her party's leadership - if she turns up tomorrow morning going on about "Nigel Farage's Little England" she'll just look stupid.
I'm quite happy to give lessons to Leavers on how to deal with defectors.
I was the model of restraint and rationality when Mark Reckless defected to UKIP.
LOL. That TPD, we remember!
Favourite moment last May, Reckless or Balls?
Reckless. I've always kinda like Ed Balls on some levels.
Shows how brutal politics is. On May 7th last year at 9.59pm Ed Balls was thinking he might be Chancellor of the Exchequer in the morning. turns out he ended up being unemployed in the morning.
Yes, politics can be a brutal game. I think Balls got the bigger cheer at the party I was at that morning, but thinking back Reckless was the one we were most happy to see shoved off the green benches on his fat sorry arse.
I know someone who was at Matthew Parker Street on election night, he said the biggest cheers of the night were the following
1) Reckless losing 2) Cable losing 3) Nuneaton result 4) Ed Balls losing
That's about right. I remember Reckless, Cable, Farage and Balls all being within an hour, at around 09:30 Dubai time and a dozen beers into the long night. The Nuneaton result was when we realised the majority was on, and everyone, like on here, hit Betfair to undo the 1/8 and 1/10 we all had on NOM!! Happy days!
This is now Remain's campaign message and in particular DC and GO. Must be result of focus group but if sticks will not be good for leave
There were a couple of "Nigel Farage's Little England" from DC at PMQs today. It's obviously a focus grouped line that NF is unpopular with swing voters, and Remain think that if they push the line it might stop a few waverers from voting Leave. Expect to hear it every day for the next fortnight.
Calling at least half your voters, members and activists Little Englanders is beyond self destructive.
Ooh, a possible defection. Not sure how this works for a referendum though, she's been quite forthright about her Leave views, contrary to her party's leadership - if she turns up tomorrow morning going on about "Nigel Farage's Little England" she'll just look stupid.
I'm quite happy to give lessons to Leavers on how to deal with defectors.
I was the model of restraint and rationality when Mark Reckless defected to UKIP.
LOL. That TPD, we remember!
Favourite moment last May, Reckless or Balls?
Reckless. I've always kinda like Ed Balls on some levels.
Shows how brutal politics is. On May 7th last year at 9.59pm Ed Balls was thinking he might be Chancellor of the Exchequer in the morning. turns out he ended up being unemployed in the morning.
Yes, politics can be a brutal game. I think Balls got the bigger cheer at the party I was at that morning, but thinking back Reckless was the one we were most happy to see shoved off the green benches on his fat sorry arse.
I know someone who was at Matthew Parker Street on election night, he said the biggest cheers of the night were the following
1) Reckless losing 2) Cable losing 3) Nuneaton result 4) Ed Balls losing
That's about right. I remember Reckless, Cable, Farage and Balls all being within an hour, at around 09:30 Dubai time and a dozen beers into the long night. The Nuneaton result was when we realised the majority was on, and everyone, like on here, hit Betfair to undo the 1/8 and 1/10 we all had on NOM!! Happy days!
Ironically they thought the biggest cheer would be Farage losing, but everyone was too knackered by then.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
I can report that the Wye Valley is a pretty solid 'Leave', which will surprise precisely no one.
What's pretty solid? Over 60%?
Easily. It helps that our local MP (David Davies) is a long standing BOOer - he was returned with an increased majority last election. We seem to quite like him round here, and why not? He's a good bloke, works hard.
That's great to hear.
My concern is that while we will win areas on 60%, Remain will win inner North London and part of Scotland by 70%. We need to win in far more local authorities to make up the difference.
Lincolnshire should deliver...
London as a whole was 57/43 in today's poll. Nothing special. Lincolnshire is interesting: now one of the most eurosceptic counties, in 1975 it returned one of the highest YES votes, at 75%.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
Well enough.
Come on, don't be a snide tease like TSE! Spill...
On current polling, I think Leave will win 52% in Luton.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
I can report that the Wye Valley is a pretty solid 'Leave', which will surprise precisely no one.
What's pretty solid? Over 60%?
Easily. It helps that our local MP (David Davies) is a long standing BOOer - he was returned with an increased majority last election. We seem to quite like him round here, and why not? He's a good bloke, works hard.
Christ. As a leaver I could see him far enough, I really could. Other than Heath's sulk record what does he have to aim for exactly?
This is now Remain's campaign message and in particular DC and GO. Must be result of focus group but if sticks will not be good for leave
There were a couple of "Nigel Farage's Little England" from DC at PMQs today. It's obviously a focus grouped line that NF is unpopular with swing voters, and Remain think that if they push the line it might stop a few waverers from voting Leave. Expect to hear it every day for the next fortnight.
Calling at least half your voters, members and activists Little Englanders is beyond self destructive.
I'm beyond stunned TBH
Too many beyonds dear Plato . I agree it's daft, but they clearly think we have nowhere else to go. For that to be correct, they must be counting on Corbyn staying on until 2020. So, Labour, you know what you need to do - get cracking.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
I can report that the Wye Valley is a pretty solid 'Leave', which will surprise precisely no one.
What's pretty solid? Over 60%?
Easily. It helps that our local MP (David Davies) is a long standing BOOer - he was returned with an increased majority last election. We seem to quite like him round here, and why not? He's a good bloke, works hard.
Christ. As a leaver I could see him far enough, I really could. Other than Heath's sulk record what does he have to aim for exactly?
Vote Leave arguing amongst themselves whether it is £350m or £200m seems really poor...
... for Remain who look bad (either way) while this is in the news.
You do have a point, but it also makes Leave look innumerate.
Innumerate?
Take a look at the Tories' immigration commitment; makes Leave look like financial accountants.
Exxon's accountants perhaps. I am first in the line to criticise the duplicitous tens of thousands pledge but that was duplicitous and this is politics. Worse than that is to look incompetent.
Interestingly, Gove was on TV a few days ago saying that it would be tens of thousands of immigrants after Brexit, which is just as duplicitous. Unlike Cameron he won't be called out on it until after we Brexit, if we do. Cameron has a big immigration problem. Remain has a big Cameron problem in that he seems to be fronting the thing single-handedly. Therefore Remain has a Cameron-sized immigration problem.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
I can report that the Wye Valley is a pretty solid 'Leave', which will surprise precisely no one.
What's pretty solid? Over 60%?
Easily. It helps that our local MP (David Davies) is a long standing BOOer - he was returned with an increased majority last election. We seem to quite like him round here, and why not? He's a good bloke, works hard.
Christ. As a leaver I could see him far enough, I really could. Other than Heath's sulk record what does he have to aim for exactly?
This is now Remain's campaign message and in particular DC and GO. Must be result of focus group but if sticks will not be good for leave
And Farage always the gift that keeps giving, just keeps on delivering for Remain... Farage wants to bring down the whole EU project, imagine the economic & security chaos that would create as Putin waits patiently on the sidelines of Europe. But then, isn't Farage is an admirer of Putin?
Twitter Nigel Farage Verified account @Nigel_Farage I hope on June 23rd it is not just Independence Day for the UK, I hope it brings an end to the entire EU project.
I actually think that Vote Leave are justified in using the gross figure, but I can certainly see the objections to it.
What I can't understand is, why would that make someone decide to switch sides (if that is what she is going to do)?
I can't see an objection that holds water.
If you were to ask me how much tax I pay, I'd give you the gross figure, not the figure minus the value of services I receive in return.
Net of rebate is the correct figure to use.
Agreed. I have never for the life of me been able to work out why Leave went with the amount including he rebate when using the gross without the rebate is entirely justified and would still equal £288 million a week. It is a bullet proof figure and still sounds like a vast amount of money.
Agreed. Stupid. But then consistency is always an overrated virtue.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
I can report that the Wye Valley is a pretty solid 'Leave', which will surprise precisely no one.
What's pretty solid? Over 60%?
Easily. It helps that our local MP (David Davies) is a long standing BOOer - he was returned with an increased majority last election. We seem to quite like him round here, and why not? He's a good bloke, works hard.
Christ. As a leaver I could see him far enough, I really could. Other than Heath's sulk record what does he have to aim for exactly?
So will Wollaston be joining Labour Leave in the morning?
Welcome aboard Doc!
Meanwhile, I guess George Osborne didn't make Airfix models as a boy, otherwise he might know that wings are a fairly fundamental part of an aeroplane.
Harry Cole Home Office said last week they cannot provide numbers on how many jobseekers have been kicked out after six months, despite Osborne claim.
Blimey.
While Remain focus on personal attacks, Leave are busy taking Remain's claims to pieces.
Remain do realise this isn't an election and Farage won't be on the ballot?
Plenty of people acting like Cameron is on the ballot, given the non-EU things that are brought up around him in this debate. Which given Leave do have the best arguments, shows no one can help going personal.
I actually think that Vote Leave are justified in using the gross figure, but I can certainly see the objections to it.
What I can't understand is, why would that make someone decide to switch sides (if that is what she is going to do)?
I can't see an objection that holds water.
If you were to ask me how much tax I pay, I'd give you the gross figure, not the figure minus the value of services I receive in return.
Net of rebate is the correct figure to use.
Agreed. I have never for the life of me been able to work out why Leave went with the amount including he rebate when using the gross without the rebate is entirely justified and would still equal £288 million a week. It is a bullet proof figure and still sounds like a vast amount of money.
Agreed. Stupid. But then consistency is always an overrated virtue.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
Wise words, and, translated into Latin, my suggested motto for SeanT's CoA when he is finally ennobled for services to Literature.
So will Wollaston be joining Labour Leave in the morning?
Welcome aboard Doc!
Meanwhile, I guess George Osborne didn't make Airfix models as a boy, otherwise he might know that wings are a fairly fundamental part of an aeroplane.
Too busy studying Machiavelli, the Prince. Which is an extremely underrated book which frequently had me laughing out loud with its cynicism and insights into human nature.
Harry Cole Home Office said last week they cannot provide numbers on how many jobseekers have been kicked out after six months, despite Osborne claim.
Blimey.
While Remain focus on personal attacks, Leave are busy taking Remain's claims to pieces.
Remain do realise this isn't an election and Farage won't be on the ballot?
Plenty of people acting like Cameron is on the ballot, given the non-EU things that are brought up around him in this debate. Which given Leave do have the best arguments, shows no one can help going personal.
Harry Cole Home Office said last week they cannot provide numbers on how many jobseekers have been kicked out after six months, despite Osborne claim.
Blimey.
While Remain focus on personal attacks, Leave are busy taking Remain's claims to pieces.
Remain do realise this isn't an election and Farage won't be on the ballot?
Plenty of people acting like Cameron is on the ballot, given the non-EU things that are brought up around him in this debate. Which given Leave do have the best arguments, shows no one can help going personal.
Didn't need to be like this. Cameron could have risen above the fray and would likely have won 55 - 45. Project fear and an unpopular leadership has given the momentum to Leave.
Whilst you could argue Sarah Wollaston is a principled politician, she is being pretty thin-skinned over this. I notice she hasn't criticised any of the Remain figures, so it will be interesting to see what this is really all about.
Leave are on course for the mother of all shellackings, and no one wants to be associated with a defeat that would rival Zama?
I think the realistic thing is she's a very deeply principled politician, who causes her own side as much grief as she does her opponents.
I suspect she'll campaign on her for Leave, and not used any of the Vote Leave lines.
She didn't like the NHS line, and I get the feeling she's not happy with the focus on Turkey
Gonna tell us how tonight went on the doorsteps? Cat got your tongue?
If tonight's voters are representative of England, then England will vote Remain.
Pathetically evasive.
Remain are frit!
You won't get a honest open answer from TSE.
His role is to advocate and push Remain.
He gets some sort of kick out of sticking two fingers up at right wing voters.
I'm a right wing voter and have been since I was 18. I've been advocating right wing policies since then. I would never stick two fingers up to any voters (well maybe BNP voters, when they weren't looking)
How's campaigning going down in your part of the world?
I can report that the Wye Valley is a pretty solid 'Leave', which will surprise precisely no one.
What's pretty solid? Over 60%?
Easily. It helps that our local MP (David Davies) is a long standing BOOer - he was returned with an increased majority last election. We seem to quite like him round here, and why not? He's a good bloke, works hard.
Christ. As a leaver I could see him far enough, I really could. Other than Heath's sulk record what does he have to aim for exactly?
LauraK Osborne now claiming immigration down to tens of thousands was an 'ambition' - it was a manifesto commitment
Infuriating for many Tories though it may be, and a silly thing to say (though given how unachievable it was, I suppose it was the least worst option vs saying it was a lie), isn't that strictly speaking a true statement from Osborne? Manifesto commitments are merely ambitions, and parties can and do ignore them or outright do the opposite of them all the time. They then have to try to explain why things have changed so much they can't do it, or it was a mistake to include it, or whatever. I'm not saying Osborne's explanation is justification for including the promise in the first place if it was unobtainable, or excuse enough for not achieving it, but without seeing the exact quote, I feel like in literal terms (though not in terms which will not help him) he's correct.
Pretty devastating critique of the leave campaign. Sarah getting the buyers remorse in early. As opposed to a few million who will have it in 10 months time if leave wins.
Doesn't keep up to date then does she? The Vote Leave campaign have been saying (for around a week) that they would spend £100 million a week on health...
And made a fool of herself. Her words will be thrown back at her, mercilessly. This is TPD behaviour.
As luck would have it, if you can call it luck, John Nott quitting should cancel this out to some extent.
Very odd. She was evidently quite a staunch eurosceptic and yet decided to somehow defect from one campaign telling fibs to another campaign telling fibs.
Pity, I thought Sarah Wollaston could go a long way. It is not as if there are not plenty of people on both sides, but particularly Leave who have made it clear that they do not agree with everything that leave spokesmen have said.
Harry Cole Home Office said last week they cannot provide numbers on how many jobseekers have been kicked out after six months, despite Osborne claim.
Blimey.
While Remain focus on personal attacks, Leave are busy taking Remain's claims to pieces.
Remain do realise this isn't an election and Farage won't be on the ballot?
Plenty of people acting like Cameron is on the ballot, given the non-EU things that are brought up around him in this debate. Which given Leave do have the best arguments, shows no one can help going personal.
Didn't need to be like this. Cameron could have risen above the fray and would likely have won 55 - 45. Project fear and an unpopular leadership has given the momentum to Leave.
Many people feel that is so. It may be right. I was merely observing that it isn't only Remain going personal, even if people feel they have been bigger offenders.
Curious. The claims of VoteLeave may well have been untrue, but if she thought leaving the EU was a good idea, surely even if she was unwilling to being part of their campaign she would not switch to remain over incorrect claims - incorrect claims presumably don't invalidate the reasons she wanted to leave?
That'd be like A Tory cabinet minister switching to Labour during the GE because Osborne deliberately confused debt and deficit to score a point against Labour.
Comments
It also perverts our own funding of services and causes because the money we do get back usually has a requirement for matched funding and the decision on where it is spent is not our own. As a result the Government can end up spending even more money in areas it doesn't necessarily agree with or face claims it is rejecting 'EU money'.
Shows how brutal politics is. On May 7th last year at 9.59pm Ed Balls was thinking he might be Chancellor of the Exchequer in the morning. turns out he ended up being unemployed in the morning.
Extraordinary
The Corbynistas think it has betrayed the true way while the soft left have been sent packing by the Corbynistas..
Not sure who is there to get out the soft left Remain vote. @SouthamObserver any thoughts?
If you can get the opposition and the media to do your campaigning for you even when they are trying to attack you, you're not losing.
She would be crazy to go over to Remain.
You never go full Remain.
Was what Wollaston wrote recently. Not sure a defection to remain makes much sense?
Take a look at the Tories' immigration commitment; makes Leave look like financial accountants.
Well maybe high and mighty
"We will;
keep our ambition of delivering annual net migration in the tens of thousands, ...."
Meanwhile, the EU prevents bear attacks...
https://twitter.com/Stronger_ln/status/727468326570610688
What is said on Twitter is someone's personal view and worth not a lot. I really don't understand why you re-post so many such opinions on here. In my twitter feed I regularly get stuff from someone who calls themself CatFoodBreath and posts about Squeaky Toy Smackdown, Elephants in the Hallway, and other cat like activities. They have the same relevance in forming my opinion as the stuff you re-post.
Harry Cole
Home Office said last week they cannot provide numbers on how many jobseekers have been kicked out after six months, despite Osborne claim.
1) Reckless losing
2) Cable losing
3) Nuneaton result
4) Ed Balls losing
We will see how that works out. Farage will appeal to some Boris and Gove can't and vice versa.
My concern is that while we will win areas on 60%, Remain will win inner North London and part of Scotland by 70%. We need to win in far more local authorities to make up the difference.
Lincolnshire should deliver...
Osborne also said, 'immigration is not on the ballot paper' - think rather a lot of voters, and certainly Vote Leave, would beg to differ
Oh, wait...
I'm beyond stunned TBH
It wasn't that bad. Better than Cameron last night.
"Why should we believe you, a here today gone tomorrow minister" and off he went..
Robin Day was good!
A here today, gone tomorrow story.
*John Nott https://t.co/cthf3B5moa
https://youtu.be/Q9kZR7EPv7g
They had a point.
While Remain focus on personal attacks, Leave are busy taking Remain's claims to pieces.
Remain do realise this isn't an election and Farage won't be on the ballot?
Twitter
Nigel Farage Verified account
@Nigel_Farage
I hope on June 23rd it is not just Independence Day for the UK, I hope it brings an end to the entire EU project.
Welcome aboard Doc!
Meanwhile, I guess George Osborne didn't make Airfix models as a boy, otherwise he might know that wings are a fairly fundamental part of an aeroplane.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/leave-campaign-leaders-presenting-themselves-as-champions-of-the-people-now-that-really-is-scary-a7068926.html
Wise words, and, translated into Latin, my suggested motto for SeanT's CoA when he is finally ennobled for services to Literature.
Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has quit the campaign to leave the EU and will vote for Remain instead, she told the BBC.
Dr Wollaston, who is chairman of the health select committee, said Vote Leave's claim that Brexit would free up £350m for the NHS "simply isn't true".
She told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that she did not feel "comfortable" being part of the campaign.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36485464
Clark talks about Nott quite a lot in his diaries.
AC would if alive, I imagine, be going mental at the state of the leadership to every journo he could.
Cameron's ratings have gone down the pan since this campaign started.
As luck would have it, if you can call it luck, John Nott quitting should cancel this out to some extent.
This is not a story that will be buried by the resignation of someone who left 30 years ago
That'd be like A Tory cabinet minister switching to Labour during the GE because Osborne deliberately confused debt and deficit to score a point against Labour.