On topic - I have no view on who should be the next Tory leader and hence PM, other than to say #Priti4Leader
No Labourite who I would take seriously could vote 'Leave' knowing it might result in pro hanging Priti Patel becoming leader.
She might be pro-hanging, but she would remain in a tiny minority in Westminster.
Even if I was totally opposed to capital punishment (which I'm not) then I can't imagine that it could be the dominant issue when considering politicians views. An unfair death of a criminal is something that one could balance with other benefits. We'd all trade the poor criminal's life for a million children spared starvation for example. I'd probably trade my own life for that.
We mainly don't have a death penalty because people are uncomfortable drawing the line. That's totally sensible, but I think its wrong to get terribly preachy on the issue. We all generally value our own lives over every other (Family stuff excepted).
I am opposed to capital punishment. But, I wouldn't oppose a referendum on it if the people called for one.
I would campaign on the "No" side. Vehemently.
But, if I lost, I'd accept the result and work out how best to moderate or campaign for its repeal again in future.
Yes. I guess the question is really about the degree to which if it was part of our system that it would worry you. I'd not be happy, but I wouldn't consider it high on my list of things to change.
I certainly don't want to get into this debate, but abortion laws are far more significant in their impact than the laws on capital punishment for example. Perhaps other laws are more important still.
If Priti Patel or any other politician has repugnent views on capital punishment then that really doesn't matter. It just informs your judgement as to that person.
I haven't seen this published here yet - a survey of Political Studies Association members has said that Remain will win comfortably. Among academics ( of which I was one) 87% thought they would win, among pollsters it was 92% and among journalists it was 97%!
Lol!
This is the group-think madness that is feeding into Remain complacency imho.
Mass confirmation bias.
It just goes to show the very clever are no more accurate or insightful than us mugs. They can just deploy more sophisticated explanations.
There's a lesson there.
Um. The clever are more accurate and/or insightful than the stupid: that's kinda the definition. (For the avoidance of doubt I am not calling you stupid nor a mug, nor implying it)
The academics, pollsters and journalists are not trying to predict the election, they are competing with other APJs for prestige amongst their peers, money and - for those with a taste for fame - places on Newsnight. The point is not to be right, the point is to publish. By that standard they are enormously successful and enjoy a life involving little danger in a pleasant climate with engrossing labour and long life expectancies. If their lives depended on it I assure you they would become very good at predicting very quickly.
The difference between tonight and yesterday is that this is becoming a ding-dong between Gove and Islam. Perhaps some of that is down to Islam. But regardless, a top politician should manage to avoid that.
And Faisal bit. Most people know interviewers play devil's advocate - Islam should have just kept asking the question. Instead he just looked evasive and the audience didn't like it.
I wonder if Vote Leave went for the £350m figure as a distraction? This seems a silly thing to be arguing about.
It is perfectly valid - some of it comes back in EU grants - with various strings attached - but the EU decides who gets it.
A UK government could cut those recipients off without a penny and give it to NHS or tax cuts. In fact I'm surprised there has been so little shroud waving by current grant recipients to this effect.
Well, speaking as a floating voter in the referendum... I think Gove is coming across terribly.
Just as belligerent as Cameron last night, and he's coming close to some of the more frothing criticisms of some of the more unhinged Eurosceptics (the EU might well be incompetent and chronically inefficient, but nobody believes it's an intentionally evil "job-killing machine").
I wonder if Vote Leave went for the £350m figure as a distraction? This seems a silly thing to be arguing about.
It is perfectly valid - some of it comes back in EU grants - with various strings attached - but the EU decides who gets it.
A UK government could cut those recipients off without a penny and give it to NHS or tax cuts. In fact I'm surprised there has been so little shroud waving by current grant recipients to this effect.
Faisal was careful about that. As we all know, some of the £350m is taken off the gross amount at source and doesn't leave the country.
Wobbly start but solid end. Faisal Islam was poor. Shouty, interrupting, his points made little coherence at times and couldn't cope with Gove actually having a greater memory of Faisal Islam's points last night than he did.
More interesting was Leave are going on elites vs. the people big time.
Well, speaking as a floating voter in the referendum... I think Gove is coming across terribly.
Just as belligerent as Cameron last night, and he's coming close to some of the more frothing criticisms of some of the more unhinged Eurosceptics (the EU might well be incompetent and chronically inefficient, but nobody believes it's an intentionally evil "job-killing machine").
The high youth unemployment rates in Spain, Greece, etc. say different.
Also, I remember the unemployment generated by the ERM in this country.
The key hit was that there is no credible ally in supporting Leave and rather than articulate a vision other than "Freedom", which is nebulous at best, no coherent vision of what Leave wants.
I wonder if Vote Leave went for the £350m figure as a distraction? This seems a silly thing to be arguing about.
It is perfectly valid - some of it comes back in EU grants - with various strings attached - but the EU decides who gets it.
A UK government could cut those recipients off without a penny and give it to NHS or tax cuts. In fact I'm surprised there has been so little shroud waving by current grant recipients to this effect.
It's not valid at all. £350 million per week is what the UK would pay if we didn't have the rebate. In fact, the UK only pays about £250 million per week, and that's before you even start to consider what comes back. It is simply absurd to keep using the £350 million figure.
Well, speaking as a floating voter in the referendum... I think Gove is coming across terribly.
Just as belligerent as Cameron last night, and he's coming close to some of the more frothing criticisms of some of the more unhinged Eurosceptics (the EU might well be incompetent and chronically inefficient, but nobody believes it's an intentionally evil "job-killing machine").
The high youth unemployment rates in Spain, Greece, etc. say different.
Also, I remember the unemployment generated by the ERM in this country.
The unemployment in Spain and Greece is caused by the farcical incompetence of the Eurocrats, and the fundamental flaws in trying to cram all sorts of different types of economy into one currency -- they are not intentionally trying to make people's lives misery.
I wonder if Vote Leave went for the £350m figure as a distraction? This seems a silly thing to be arguing about.
It is perfectly valid - some of it comes back in EU grants - with various strings attached - but the EU decides who gets it.
A UK government could cut those recipients off without a penny and give it to NHS or tax cuts. In fact I'm surprised there has been so little shroud waving by current grant recipients to this effect.
It's not valid at all. £350 million per week is what the UK would pay if we didn't have the rebate. In fact, the UK only pays about £250 million per week, and that's before you even start to consider what comes back. It is simply absurd to keep using the £350 million figure.
Part of me thinks that Leave made a big mistake going for the gross figure, but another part of me thinks it might have been calculated. Every time some says it's only £9.8bn I think that might be a win for Leave.
Well, speaking as a floating voter in the referendum... I think Gove is coming across terribly.
Just as belligerent as Cameron last night, and he's coming close to some of the more frothing criticisms of some of the more unhinged Eurosceptics (the EU might well be incompetent and chronically inefficient, but nobody believes it's an intentionally evil "job-killing machine").
The high youth unemployment rates in Spain, Greece, etc. say different.
Also, I remember the unemployment generated by the ERM in this country.
The unemployment in Spain and Greece is caused by the farcical incompetence of the Eurocrats, and the fundamental flaws in trying to cram all sorts of different types of economy into one currency -- they are not intentionally trying to make people's lives misery.
They were told this would be the effect in 1989 by HMG.
I think the problem for Gove is that this was his opportunity to demonstrate to the doubtful that Leave know what they are doing. It wasn't so much a bad interview as a missed opportunity.
Gove at his most convincing on immigration. That will of course delight and distress voters depending on their persuasion. There's no doubt, it will be immigration wot wins it.
Well, speaking as a floating voter in the referendum... I think Gove is coming across terribly.
Just as belligerent as Cameron last night, and he's coming close to some of the more frothing criticisms of some of the more unhinged Eurosceptics (the EU might well be incompetent and chronically inefficient, but nobody believes it's an intentionally evil "job-killing machine").
The high youth unemployment rates in Spain, Greece, etc. say different.
Also, I remember the unemployment generated by the ERM in this country.
The unemployment in Spain and Greece is caused by the farcical incompetence of the Eurocrats, and the fundamental flaws in trying to cram all sorts of different types of economy into one currency -- they are not intentionally trying to make people's lives misery.
They might not have started that way Danny but they are doing it now.
They are so determined to push integration that they will impose pension cuts, wage cuts, higher taxes and labour market reform.
How many more years are they going to push the Greeks?
Comments
Faisal is also more forensic than last night. Gove struggling to substantiate.
I certainly don't want to get into this debate, but abortion laws are far more significant in their impact than the laws on capital punishment for example. Perhaps other laws are more important still.
If Priti Patel or any other politician has repugnent views on capital punishment then that really doesn't matter. It just informs your judgement as to that person.
I will ignore you from now on.
Lancashire looking good!
The academics, pollsters and journalists are not trying to predict the election, they are competing with other APJs for prestige amongst their peers, money and - for those with a taste for fame - places on Newsnight. The point is not to be right, the point is to publish. By that standard they are enormously successful and enjoy a life involving little danger in a pleasant climate with engrossing labour and long life expectancies. If their lives depended on it I assure you they would become very good at predicting very quickly.
But I could have written your posts before it started.
I have credibility and perspective. You have neither.
F. Islam is awful.
And FCUK JP Morgan.
I also thought DC was very polished.
Frankly, that is disappointing to say the least.
Ah, Gove gets another hit back on Faisal.
Gove making his.
He's got a habit of going up an octave to make a point.
WHEN WILL PEOPLE LEARN THAN SMIRKING PUTS PEOPLE OFF
A UK government could cut those recipients off without a penny and give it to NHS or tax cuts. In fact I'm surprised there has been so little shroud waving by current grant recipients to this effect.
Just as belligerent as Cameron last night, and he's coming close to some of the more frothing criticisms of some of the more unhinged Eurosceptics (the EU might well be incompetent and chronically inefficient, but nobody believes it's an intentionally evil "job-killing machine").
'Faisal is overplaying his hand.'
Trying to hard to be a smart arse and getting trashed by Gove.
chortle
More interesting was Leave are going on elites vs. the people big time.
Also, I remember the unemployment generated by the ERM in this country.
The key hit was that there is no credible ally in supporting Leave and rather than articulate a vision other than "Freedom", which is nebulous at best, no coherent vision of what Leave wants.
Would he keep calling Sajid Javid "Mr President"?
That said, it does mystify me that the leavers seem surprised by the questions they are asked.
Gove was backed by the audience which seems firmly leave, however that will not swing voters.
Gove is winning this. @SkyNews
Toby YoungVerified account @toadmeister 7m7 minutes ago
Gove has @faisalislam on the ropes. Great TV. #InOrOut
Andrew NeilVerified account @afneil 8m8 minutes ago
Gove has turned on Faisal.
https://youtu.be/xSp5QwKRwqM
You want to thump Faisal Islam?
GO(ve) White Rose County.
Yorks 69-3 and it's 136 to win off 73
In style. Not substance, of course, but style is all isn't it.
They said, we know but we'll do it anyway.
Your call.
They are so determined to push integration that they will impose pension cuts, wage cuts, higher taxes and labour market reform.
How many more years are they going to push the Greeks?