Low rent Paxman impression from Faisal - trying to laugh to yourself about a ridiculous answer needs far more commitment than he could must and it fell rather flat.
Very strong from Gove, particularly in the 2nd half when he was allowed to speak in full sentences.
@stellacreasy No idea why Gove thinks he can confirm now what other countries will do re UK residents if we leave- will be upto them not him! #inOrOut
We will take back control, but other countries will do what we want.
Heart: Touchy, feely, freedom? Out. Head: Details of how it actually works? In.
Yes, that's been the essence of the campaign as a whole. Leave have been appealing to the emotions; Remain to reason.
We are animals not comptuers. We take our most important decisions, like who to marry, by instinct not reason.
Which, perhaps, is why so many end in divorce. Yes, emotion does provide a fast way to make decisions when reason is overwhelmed with detail, but when emotion gets it wrong, boy does it get it wrong.
(Note: I disagree with the accepted "lions led by donkeys" narrative.)
So do I.
Most of the generals had to work hard to figure out from scratch how to fight that war and despite some serious mistakes innovated throughout the war.
They didn't have to work out didely squat from scratch. The proceeding half a century had laid out a clear picture of how the war would develop when two technologically matched foes were to meet. Grant at Cold Harbour in the American civil war was the absolute prototype of attempting to take trenches vs massed firepower I.e. absolute and total failure.
Their abject failure to learn from history, stunning failure to use modern technology, particularaly communication technology (the French high command at one point was headquartered in a building without any phone lines, everything was done by messenger) and startling combination of onstinance and strategic cowardice - repeatedly ordering frontal assaults but then refusing to release reserves once a breakthrough had been made cost untold lives.
Yes there was innovation over the years of the war but at a painfully slow rate and only because the incompetents in command had failed to head the lessons of history.
As a Labour voter and a firm believer in the EU ideal, I was very impressed with Michael Gove. There's no doubt that Britain would be fine outside the EU - I wish Remain would admit this.
(Note: I disagree with the accepted "lions led by donkeys" narrative.)
So do I.
Most of the generals had to work hard to figure out from scratch how to fight that war and despite some serious mistakes innovated throughout the war.
They didn't have to work out didely squat from scratch. The proceeding half a century had laid out a clear picture of how the war would develop when two technologically matched foes were to meet. Grant at Cold Harbour in the American civil war was the absolute prototype of attempting to take trenches vs massed firepower I.e. absolute and total failure.
Their abject failure to learn from history, stunning failure to use modern technology, particularaly communication technology (the French high command at one point was headquartered in a building without any phone lines, everything was done by messenger) and startling combination of onstinance and strategic cowardice - repeatedly ordering frontal assaults but then refusing to release reserves once a breakthrough had been made cost untold lives.
Yes there was innovation over the years of the war but at a painfully slow rate and only because the incompetents in command had failed to head the lessons of history.
Another wikipedia General.
Bring back Dair - the earnestness was more amusing.
@stellacreasy No idea why Gove thinks he can confirm now what other countries will do re UK residents if we leave- will be upto them not him! #inOrOut
We will take back control, but other countries will do what we want.
Gove answered Faisal's questions which were all economy based where Leave is seen to be weakest. By contrast Faisal attacked Cameron on immigration and yet Cameron just spoke about the economy.
Gove debated, Cameron dodged. It's a nonsense to say Cameron did better against Faisal.
Talking of Twitter. Our Stella doesn't seem very impressed by Gove stellacreasy @stellacreasy No idea why Gove thinks he can confirm now what other countries will do re UK residents if we leave- will be upto them not him! #inOrOut
Does she think they are going to break international conventions?
Talking of Twitter. Our Stella doesn't seem very impressed by Gove stellacreasy @stellacreasy No idea why Gove thinks he can confirm now what other countries will do re UK residents if we leave- will be upto them not him! #inOrOut
She has never heard of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, then?
Fewer than in the second. (38M Vs 50M). Off course if you include the flu epidemic....
Price worth paying then...
The arrogance of the Leave campaign in full view.
Millions died, but only the little people. The generals (Gove and BoJo) get medals...
During the 1st world war over 200 generals were killed - epic fail.
"Some 12% of the British army's ordinary soldiers were killed during the war, compared with 17% of its officers. Eton alone lost more than 1,000 former pupils - 20% of those who served. UK wartime Prime Minister Herbert Asquith lost a son, while future Prime Minister Andrew Bonar Law lost two. Anthony Eden lost two brothers, another brother of his was terribly wounded, and an uncle was captured."
It might surprise you but Blackadder Goes Forth was not a 'fly on the wall' documentary.
Don't cite facts to Scott, he's too interesting in sneering.
We have a duty to educate and inform the ignorant. They may be no wiser but they may know more.
I haven't agreed with a lot of what he's said. But our politics would be richer, deeper and better if it was a bit more like Michael Gove.
Whether you agree with his approach and method or not, Islam asked some searing questions and Gove had no answer to any of them. Gove has decided to support Leave and good for him. But his support in now way substantiates the Leave campaign.
"Optimistic and hopeful about our future" must sound real good to say. But there is precious little substance about what would happen were we to leave the EU.
Clear that he is at odds with many of the Leave campaign on immigration, fear of the foreigner, global conspiracies and Turkey. He might have a charming bedside manner but the dark underbelly of the a Leave campaign is still there. He might have struggled on the detail but the Leave campaign isn't fighting for the votes of people who will make their decisions on costed manifestos - they are already gone.
Talking of Twitter. Our Stella doesn't seem very impressed by Gove stellacreasy @stellacreasy No idea why Gove thinks he can confirm now what other countries will do re UK residents if we leave- will be upto them not him! #inOrOut
She has never heard of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, then?
Heart: Touchy, feely, freedom? Out. Head: Details of how it actually works? In.
Yes, that's been the essence of the campaign as a whole. Leave have been appealing to the emotions; Remain to reason.
Problem is I've looked at remains reason and it's ill founded.
By 2030, the economics of Brexit are the same as Bremain IMHO
It is almost impossible to guarantee *zero* short-term disruption and change when we've been part of an economic union for 40 years, unless there's a ready-made deal on the table we can instantly switch to.
I think if we did Leave we'd reach a sensible agreement that would be worth it, and we'd grow strongly globally after.
But Leave are always going to be on the back foot here. The Government has given them so choice.
@stellacreasy No idea why Gove thinks he can confirm now what other countries will do re UK residents if we leave- will be upto them not him! #inOrOut
We will take back control, but other countries will do what we want.
It's laughable. And Salmondesque...
They either follow conventions (in this case the Vienna convention) or they don't. I suspect they will actually follow them, but don't let that stop you being ridiculous.
(Note: I disagree with the accepted "lions led by donkeys" narrative.)
So do I.
Most of the generals had to work hard to figure out from scratch how to fight that war and despite some serious mistakes innovated throughout the war.
They didn't have to work out didely squat from scratch. The proceeding half a century had laid out a clear picture of how the war would develop when two technologically matched foes were to meet. Grant at Cold Harbour in the American civil war was the absolute prototype of attempting to take trenches vs massed firepower I.e. absolute and total failure.
Their abject failure to learn from history, stunning failure to use modern technology, particularaly communication technology (the French high command at one point was headquartered in a building without any phone lines, everything was done by messenger) and startling combination of onstinance and strategic cowardice - repeatedly ordering frontal assaults but then refusing to release reserves once a breakthrough had been made cost untold lives.
Yes there was innovation over the years of the war but at a painfully slow rate and only because the incompetents in command had failed to head the lessons of history.
Another wikipedia General.
Bring back Dair - the earnestness was more amusing.
Nah, I'm a wargamer with, obviously, an interest in military history
The weird revisionism to try and paint the WW1 generals of either side as bold military innovators is just bizarre to me.
Leave would carry more weight with me if they said there would (or may) be a short term convulsion, but in the long run we would be better off because democratic accountability would be better.
Instead we get we must leave now line, but if we do, everything will be exactly same and there is no risk. It's bullshit and it loses me.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
(Note: I disagree with the accepted "lions led by donkeys" narrative.)
So do I.
Most of the generals had to work hard to figure out from scratch how to fight that war and despite some serious mistakes innovated throughout the war.
They didn't have to work out didely squat from scratch. The proceeding half a century had laid out a clear picture of how the war would develop when two technologically matched foes were to meet. Grant at Cold Harbour in the American civil war was the absolute prototype of attempting to take trenches vs massed firepower I.e. absolute and total failure.
Their abject failure to learn from history, stunning failure to use modern technology, particularaly communication technology (the French high command at one point was headquartered in a building without any phone lines, everything was done by messenger) and startling combination of onstinance and strategic cowardice - repeatedly ordering frontal assaults but then refusing to release reserves once a breakthrough had been made cost untold lives.
Yes there was innovation over the years of the war but at a painfully slow rate and only because the incompetents in command had failed to head the lessons of history.
Another wikipedia General.
Bring back Dair - the earnestness was more amusing.
Nah, I'm a wargamer with, obviously, an interest in military history
Leave would carry more weight with me if they said there would (or may) be a short term convulsion, but in the long run we would be better off because democratic accountability would be better.
Instead we get we must leave now line, but if we do, everything will be exactly same and there is no risk. It's bullshit and it loses me.
Glad I didn't wait to write my Saturday piece now. Don't think Gove has changed anything. Very few will have watched and even fewer again who are genuinely undecided. In the absence of any zingers or serious foul-ups, it'll be a minor news story tomorrow morning and then be dissolved away by events.
Voting Leave would have been like voting Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
I totally agree with the poster up thread who said the audience were listening; he holds your attention.
To be fair i don't think it was just because it was Gove. Scare stories about leaving have for a long time dominated the campaign and so i think the audience genuinely were interested in hearing from the horses mouth the rational arguments for. I think the tone Gove took hit the spot.
(Note: I disagree with the accepted "lions led by donkeys" narrative.)
So do I.
Most of the generals had to work hard to figure out from scratch how to fight that war and despite some serious mistakes innovated throughout the war.
They didn't have to work out didely squat from scratch. The proceeding half a century had laid out a clear picture of how the war would develop when two technologically matched foes were to meet. Grant at Cold Harbour in the American civil war was the absolute prototype of attempting to take trenches vs massed firepower I.e. absolute and total failure.
Their abject failure to learn from history, stunning failure to use modern technology, particularaly communication technology (the French high command at one point was headquartered in a building without any phone lines, everything was done by messenger) and startling combination of onstinance and strategic cowardice - repeatedly ordering frontal assaults but then refusing to release reserves once a breakthrough had been made cost untold lives.
Yes there was innovation over the years of the war but at a painfully slow rate and only because the incompetents in command had failed to head the lessons of history.
Another wikipedia General.
Bring back Dair - the earnestness was more amusing.
Nah, I'm a wargamer with, obviously, an interest in military history
The weird revisionism to try and paint the WW1 generals of either side as bold military innovators is just bizarre to me.
It is counter-revisionism, actually.
I'm not saying they were bold military innovators.
Voting Leave would have been like voting Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
Voting Leave would have been like voting Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
None of the anger and frustration that Cameron faced last night.
That was very noticeable. Gove came across as calm, measured and assured and the contrast with Cameron last night could not have been clearer. Gove surprised me on the upside, he's not got that natural bonhomie and wasn't as polished as Cameron but that made him seem more human and believable as a result.
Is there any evidence Gove actually wants the job ?
Boris yes, but Gove ?
He's repeatedly said he doesn't want it.
Not only that, Miss P, Gove has said more than once the he does not have the qualities required of a Party Leader. So he not only doesn't want the job but he knows he would be rubbish at it. However, no matter how often this is pointed out some denizens of this site still keep mentioning him as a future leader of the Conservative Party.
I'm not sure I'm talking to you after your rather rude remarks on the last thread. Criticising both the City *and* the EIC in the same sentence!
I am sorry, Mr. Charles, but much as I love the City (and I really do) it would be wrong to ignore its failures and, it has to be said, the fact(?) that it has not been a nett long term benefit for the the UK.
I'd love to come up to Town and debate this with you and we can go back to Gresham, and the later founding of certain banks, and discuss how the good and bad aspects the City have had on the UK. Of course, such a debate would take many hours and probably as many bottles of wine and neither your busy life nor my eyesight would permit that.
Sky's done some weird highlights editing - they've one clip of Faisal making a Trump point and not any of the reply.
Err.
To be honest Sky seem to be highlighting the worst bits of the programme much like they did with DC last night and they have played those all day today. No doubt they will do the same with Gove tomorrow which I believe is unfair to both sides but that's the media for you
Voting Leave would have been like voting Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
Ok how much do you want ?
Whiskered screech owl, please.
Yeah we'll give you two
Do you have an o-level in that? Otherwise not interested.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
"Optimistic and hopeful about our future" must sound real good to say. But there is precious little substance about what would happen were we to leave the EU.'
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
Or that there are not huge risks inherent in staying in the EU
Voting Leave would have been like voting Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
Ok how much do you want ?
Whiskered screech owl, please.
Yeah we'll give you two
Do you have an o-level in that? Otherwise not interested.
Leave would carry more weight with me if they said there would (or may) be a short term convulsion, but in the long run we would be better off because democratic accountability would be better.
Instead we get we must leave now line, but if we do, everything will be exactly same and there is no risk. It's bullshit and it loses me.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
The benefit to the country of EU membership outweighs the minor inconveniences that we have to put up with by being a member.
The Donald now arriving in Trump Force 1 to a rally in Redding California accompanied by Ride of the Valkyries, makes for a brilliant spectacle but a bit concerning that the last leader to arrive with his plane circling the arena accompanied by martial music was Adolf Hitler! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSjLHsiP9mo
Nah, I'm a wargamer with, obviously, an interest in military history
The weird revisionism to try and paint the WW1 generals of either side as bold military innovators is just bizarre to me.
Board or miniatures? Many years ago I wrote a best-seller about the former, and still play them - going over to the World Boardgames Convention in Pennsylkvania at the end of July.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
Absolutely. I think large parts of our history before 1973 were rather good.
And lets nail this lie about remain being the status quo. It isn't. Its a vote for more Brussels, for an EU army to become reality, for everyone to have a tax ID within the EU.......leading to harmonised (and higher) tax rates across the EU at the behest of France, for more interference in our domestic affairs from afar and for less legitimacy and accountability and democracy across the EU.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
We are an independent country
How so? Another entity's laws are supreme over ours. We have no say on global trade. We cannot close our borders to 27 other nations.
We are an autonomous region of a federation. We are the Basque Country of the EU.
"Optimistic and hopeful about our future" must sound real good to say. But there is precious little substance about what would happen were we to leave the EU.'
Better than being shackled to a corpse.
A corpse to which we send nearly half our exports.
Leave would carry more weight with me if they said there would (or may) be a short term convulsion, but in the long run we would be better off because democratic accountability would be better.
Instead we get we must leave now line, but if we do, everything will be exactly same and there is no risk. It's bullshit that loses me.
Do you wanna be governed by the unelected likes of Juncker, Draghi, Delors, Barosso, for the rest of your life, and your childrens' lives? And the lives of their children?
Is that the best you and they can hope for? A gentle but definite decline under a torpid yet gilded eurocracy which swans around nice places collecting cash while everyone else suffers?
Is that it? Is that what we are? Is that all we are?
The EU is basically FIFA without the commercially successful World Cups.
As a sincere lefty, who believes in democracy - which I believe you are - you HAVE to vote OUT. And then you and I can REALLY argue about the future of OUR country, and may the best argument win.
At the end of the day, does it really matter if our GDP is +/- 2% in 2030 over what it might have otherwise been, or not?
We will continue to be a rich and prosperous country whatever happens. And this is a decision, as you say, for decades; not for 2-3 years.
(Note: I disagree with the accepted "lions led by donkeys" narrative.)
So do I.
Most of the generals had to work hard to figure out from scratch how to fight that war and despite some serious mistakes innovated throughout the war.
They didn't have to work out didely squat from scratch. The proceeding half a century had laid out a clear picture of how the war would develop when two technologically matched foes were to meet. Grant at Cold Harbour in the American civil war was the absolute prototype of attempting to take trenches vs massed firepower I.e. absolute and total failure.
Their abject failure to learn from history, stunning failure to use modern technology, particularaly communication technology (the French high command at one point was headquartered in a building without any phone lines, everything was done by messenger) and startling combination of onstinance and strategic cowardice - repeatedly ordering frontal assaults but then refusing to release reserves once a breakthrough had been made cost untold lives.
Yes there was innovation over the years of the war but at a painfully slow rate and only because the incompetents in command had failed to head the lessons of history.
Another wikipedia General.
Bring back Dair - the earnestness was more amusing.
Nah, I'm a wargamer with, obviously, an interest in military history
The weird revisionism to try and paint the WW1 generals of either side as bold military innovators is just bizarre to me.
I didn't say they were bold military innovators, just that they did innovate.
In the US civil war they had both trench warfare and far more open battles but in WW1 it ended up mostly as trench warfare from end to end. I don't think that the civil war had much of an answer to trench warfare other than it's costly.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
Absolutely. I think large parts of our history before 1973 were rather good.
And lets nail this lie about remain being the status quo. It isn't. Its a vote for more Brussels, for an EU army to become reality, for everyone to have a tax ID within the EU.......leading to harmonised (and higher) tax rates across the EU at the behest of France, for more interference in our domestic affairs from afar and for less legitimacy and accountability and democracy across the EU.
And if all that transpires, then it will have been with the blessing of the people of the UK. Because we, as a sovereign nation, can vote to leave the EU at any point.
I thought Gove was poor with Faisal but pleasant with the audience but had no answer to what a Brexit would look like. The important issue for leave will be how Sky replay the highlights, starting at 10.00 tonight then continuing all through tomorrow. If they only show him struggling, as they may, it will be a little unfair as he did OK in parts
The Donald now arriving in Trump Force 1 to a rally in Redding California accompanied by Ride of the Valkyries, makes for a brilliant spectacle but a bit concerning that the last leader to arrive with his plane circling the arena accompanied by martial music was Adolf Hitler!
It's all very symbolic. He started his campaign by 'descending the escalator' and now he appears from the heavens to address the crowds.
"Optimistic and hopeful about our future" must sound real good to say. But there is precious little substance about what would happen were we to leave the EU.'
Better than being shackled to a corpse.
A corpse to which we send nearly half our exports.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
The benefit to the country of EU membership outweighs the minor inconveniences that we have to put up with by being a member.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
The benefit to the country of EU membership outweighs the minor inconveniences that we have to put up with by being a member.
Yeah, minor inconveniences like:
Piece rates being driven down Overcrowded schools Maternity services in chaos House prices driven sky high
Leave would carry more weight with me if they said there would (or may) be a short term convulsion, but in the long run we would be better off because democratic accountability would be better.
Instead we get we must leave now line, but if we do, everything will be exactly same and there is no risk. It's bullshit and it loses me.
Sometimes in life you have to take a step backwards to move forwards in the long term. If you're doing some building work or decorating its like that. We're in turbulent times on lots of fronts right now. Hoping that everything will remain the same is naive in the extreme though. Things are always changing, everything moves in cycles and never stays the same.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
The benefit to the country of EU membership outweighs the minor inconveniences that we have to put up with by being a member.
I am still totally baffled by both your thinking and your position, and will possibly go to my grave as such.
The Donald now arriving in Trump Force 1 to a rally in Redding California accompanied by Ride of the Valkyries, makes for a brilliant spectacle but a bit concerning that the last leader to arrive with his plane circling the arena accompanied by martial music was Adolf Hitler!
It's all very symbolic. He started his campaign by 'descending the escalator' and now he appears from the heavens to address the crowds.
Yes it is run perfectly, he is now about to exit the plane to the theme from Airforce One and Battle Hymn of the Republic but the Nazis were brilliant at symbolic spectacle too!
As a sincere lefty, who believes in democracy - which I believe you are - you HAVE to vote OUT. And then you and I can REALLY argue about the future of OUR country, and may the best argument win.
The arguments that Remain use are very totalitarian. It's actually quite shocking when you take a step back. I don't buy it. I am not going to do what nanny tells me to do.
The issue for me is democratic accountability, however messy and imperfect the people are we will always be better off in the end.
The question is which route in this referendum delivers more democracy - in or out.
The leavers see that question as a no brainer. But for that to be the case Westminster would have to be the answer. I have problems with how Westminster has performed over my lifetime. So for me it isn't quite so clear cut.
The lack of any genuine European press or political culture, or indeed a route to one, is a concern. There is no Faisal Islam equivalent on the EU stage and no sign of one.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
All this talk of "risk" about leaving the EU, it's almost like we've never been an independant country...
Absolutely. I think large parts of our history before 1973 were rather good.
And lets nail this lie about remain being the status quo. It isn't. Its a vote for more Brussels, for an EU army to become reality, for everyone to have a tax ID within the EU.......leading to harmonised (and higher) tax rates across the EU at the behest of France, for more interference in our domestic affairs from afar and for less legitimacy and accountability and democracy across the EU.
And if all that transpires, then it will have been with the blessing of the people of the UK. Because we, as a sovereign nation, can vote to leave the EU at any point.
I don't know about you, but having been born post-1975, this is the first chance I've had to express my opinion on solely remaining or leaving the EU in my lifetime!
Sky's done some weird highlights editing - they've one clip of Faisal making a Trump point and not any of the reply.
Err.
To be honest Sky seem to be highlighting the worst bits of the programme much like they did with DC last night and they have played those all day today. No doubt they will do the same with Gove tomorrow which I believe is unfair to both sides but that's the media for you
Comments
Very strong from Gove, particularly in the 2nd half when he was allowed to speak in full sentences.
It's laughable. And Salmondesque...
Their abject failure to learn from history, stunning failure to use modern technology, particularaly communication technology (the French high command at one point was headquartered in a building without any phone lines, everything was done by messenger) and startling combination of onstinance and strategic cowardice - repeatedly ordering frontal assaults but then refusing to release reserves once a breakthrough had been made cost untold lives.
Yes there was innovation over the years of the war but at a painfully slow rate and only because the incompetents in command had failed to head the lessons of history.
If he said yes he would love to be PM, he would seriously want it and if he says he doesn't he seriously wants it.
Hmm....
There's no doubt that Britain would be fine outside the EU - I wish Remain would admit this.
Bring back Dair - the earnestness was more amusing.
Faisal Islam got a lot out of them. It was good entertaining TV and generated both heat and light.
Gove debated, Cameron dodged. It's a nonsense to say Cameron did better against Faisal.
Audience didn't lay a glove on Gove (who proved a good debater). May not hv shifted non-Tories but he may hv impressed Tory waverers
I totally agree with the poster up thread who said the audience were listening; he holds your attention.
IMO Gove supplied the "it will all be ok" bit, but not the "and here's why" bit.
I said yesterday, Gove would do well and he did.
It is almost impossible to guarantee *zero* short-term disruption and change when we've been part of an economic union for 40 years, unless there's a ready-made deal on the table we can instantly switch to.
I think if we did Leave we'd reach a sensible agreement that would be worth it, and we'd grow strongly globally after.
But Leave are always going to be on the back foot here. The Government has given them so choice.
Youve been pushing this line now for 3 months, Youve certainly covinced me all Tories are liars
The weird revisionism to try and paint the WW1 generals of either side as bold military innovators is just bizarre to me.
Instead we get we must leave now line, but if we do, everything will be exactly same and there is no risk. It's bullshit and it loses me.
Simply different class.
Voting Leave would be like having voted Labour in 2015. Plenty of feelgood factor about owls for all, but precious little detail on how they actually deliver the owl.
Same with Leave. Super turbo feelgood factor about Cry Freedom! Perhaps (only perhaps) people in the cold light of day will assess that it is too great a risk. Or perhaps not.
I also think most people secretly know that too.
Err.
I'm not saying they were bold military innovators.
But they won.
'I think Faisal's ego got the better of him tonight, he's obviously been reading his own publicity. Talked over Michael Gove far too much.
I said yesterday, Gove would do well and he did.'
Islam should focus on being himself & not trying to do a poor impersonation of Jeremy Paxman.
Whoever came up with the idea of campaign rallies on airstrips is a propaganda genius.
"Optimistic and hopeful about our future" must sound real good to say. But there is precious little substance about what would happen were we to leave the EU.'
Better than being shackled to a corpse.
to the strains of Wagner...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSjLHsiP9mo
And lets nail this lie about remain being the status quo. It isn't. Its a vote for more Brussels, for an EU army to become reality, for everyone to have a tax ID within the EU.......leading to harmonised (and higher) tax rates across the EU at the behest of France, for more interference in our domestic affairs from afar and for less legitimacy and accountability and democracy across the EU.
We are an autonomous region of a federation. We are the Basque Country of the EU.
We will continue to be a rich and prosperous country whatever happens. And this is a decision, as you say, for decades; not for 2-3 years.
In the US civil war they had both trench warfare and far more open battles but in WW1 it ended up mostly as trench warfare from end to end. I don't think that the civil war had much of an answer to trench warfare other than it's costly.
The floodgates will be closed.
Piece rates being driven down
Overcrowded schools
Maternity services in chaos
House prices driven sky high
The issue for me is democratic accountability, however messy and imperfect the people are we will always be better off in the end.
The question is which route in this referendum delivers more democracy - in or out.
The leavers see that question as a no brainer. But for that to be the case Westminster would have to be the answer. I have problems with how Westminster has performed over my lifetime. So for me it isn't quite so clear cut.
The lack of any genuine European press or political culture, or indeed a route to one, is a concern. There is no Faisal Islam equivalent on the EU stage and no sign of one.
That is where the question hangs for me.