There are two options for what he is saying. The first is tautologically pointless. No one is blaming invisible pixies for the people being crushed to death. No insight is gained from saying it was crowd members that crushed other crowd members. We know that. It is a vacuous, pseudo-intellectual statement at best.
The other option is that it is victim blaming because quite surely some of those who were crushed so hard that their rib cages collapsed were also pressing against other who had the same happen to them either before or after they died. And this happened whilst people only feet away had no idea it was occurring. In crush and pre-crush situations people can take locally optimal, even logical, decisions for themselves that are devastating for the crowd as a whole. Not one person in that crowd thought "I know, I'll push this person so hard they won't be able to breather"
The whole notion of "not pushing" is based on some utopian vision of crowds
People are also completely ignoring that the reason why there was such a rush Look, here's the report on the Love Parade crowd disaster to get this clear of football fans.
Here's the key lines "As was pointed out in Sec. 2.3, when the crowd was trapped in a situation of extreme density, it did not have a chance to get an overview of the situation and possible ways to improve it, in particular to get out of the area."
"However, it took some time until the criticality of the situation was noticed and evacuation measures were taken. When the evacuation finally became effective, the ramp cleared quickly."
In dense crowd situations it takes external observation and direction for a crowd to safely disperse.
Hmm , still does not get away from the fact that if they were not acting like a herd of wildebeest and just rushing forward then it would not have happened. For sure once you are in the melee it is hard to do anything. I was involved in similar crowds, much bigger ones indeed, and it was scary indeed. I went down stairway 13 at Ibrox on day of the disaster , we heard the roar as the last minute goal was scored and people started to try to go back, we were at bottom and just left, only hearing about disaster later. At that time, in Scotland at least, most people were at best half cut as well. Had some scary ones at Hampden with over 100K crowds. Surprising it did not happen more often.
In the column with Brendan Barber, Cameron embraces Osborne's £4,300 lie. This has so many deceptions in the calculations it is hard to always mention them all. Most easily understood is dividing the 2030 GDP difference by the 2015 number of households. David Cameron is a fundamentally dishonest person.
Their co-operation is in itself remarkable, as they acknowledge that a "former trade union leader and a Conservative prime minister have never before put pen to paper together". But why is the Tory leader having to pitch so openly for votes from trade union members and the other folk who still read the Guardian?
1. Balance the budget but do so in a way that has a reasonable balance between tax rises and spending cuts (I think we're taxed enough apart from the 0.1%) and allocates spending cuts in a fair way too (sorry rich pensioners you need to be in this together with everyone else). 2. Defend our country and our culture. (Yes I am thinking of the EU and of Islam, defence spending, overseas aid and all the rest). 3. Defend free speech. We have proscribed speech right now. Some look for 'safe spaces'. Free speech means free speech - especially the right to offend someone else. 4. Is socially liberal - I'm fine with gays, soft drugs, etc. But doesn't seek to shove PC crap down my neck. 5. Enforce the law. (Rotherham, etc) 6. Put citizens first and the establishment second. Children over teachers, passengers over tube drivers, patients over doctors, customers over unions, etc.
I have no party to vote for these days. It's depressing.
May I suggest a couple more?
7. Heavily restrict unskilled migration, and migration from extremist nations like Pakistan and Somalia. 8. A new independent body to regulate the BBC's blatant bias.
Nah, you don't even need to do that, just do what rcs has suggested, make immigration here cost more money, a £5000 annual surcharge for NHS insurance for non-residents, a £2500 per child per year non-resident surcharge for the education system etc... That automatically puts off all but the highest earners.
My main problem with that is it lets in the richest people, not the best people. You would still have endless Russian oligarchs kids swanning around Knightsbridge, but would never see a talented Engineer from the third world, as for nurses from the Philippines, forget it, £5000 is 3 years salary.
Philippine nurses coming for a job would I'm sure have their employer (most likely the NHS) pay the fee as part of the hiring costs. Ditto Indian engineers, although most of them are building stuff in Dubai and Qatar right now, and earning pretty good money doing it.
Engineers don't build stuff. Engineers design stuff. It is 'hairy-arsed contractors' who build stuff!
Or Zac pulls off the shock of the century, UKIP beat the Tories in Wales and Scotland slides into a NOM with SLAB in third. I wonder what odds I can get on all of that...
I'd be happy with the Tories finishing second in Scotland.
“‘Look, Nick,’ said David Cameron impatiently, ‘I just don’t care. We’ve only got one Conservative MP north of the border. Let Labour sort it out. It’s now their problem.’
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
Miss Plato, Cameron's gone from nodding along as a foreign leader disparages the UK to turning tricks for the trade unions.
I'd already decided not to vote Conservative at the local elections, even before the formation of the Patrick Party [on a serious note, if something like that were put together I'd be more than happy to lend a hand with writing/proofing etc], but, if not, that would've pushed me away.
Mr. Owls, I share your contempt for Jess Phillips. [And Livingstone, presumably].
Keiran Pedley is a Spurs fan, I therefore agree with everything he says.
TSE, who I understand is cosy with CCHQ said that Cameron estimated that 70 of his MPs would come out for Leave. This is the root problem that not just Cameron but our senior politicians in general have, they surround themselves with nodding dogs, SPADs and focus groups who tell them what they want to hear. How on earth can Cameron understand the mood of the electorate if he doesn't understand the mood of his own MPs. In fairness to Blair, he made Prescott his deputy, he represented everything Blair wasn't and acted as a weather vane.
This referendum is about far more than EU membership, its a wake up call about accountability and public service, Cameron has taken his own people for granted, they won't all forgive him.
In the column with Brendan Barber, Cameron embraces Osborne's £4,300 lie. This has so many deceptions in the calculations it is hard to always mention them all. Most easily understood is dividing the 2030 GDP difference by the 2015 number of households. David Cameron is a fundamentally dishonest person.
If Jeremy Corbyn is not a gimp he should ask Dave that at next week's PMQs. Oh wait a mo.....
In the column with Brendan Barber, Cameron embraces Osborne's £4,300 lie. This has so many deceptions in the calculations it is hard to always mention them all. Most easily understood is dividing the 2030 GDP difference by the 2015 number of households. David Cameron is a fundamentally dishonest person.
Even dividing the 2030 GDP difference by the 2030 projected number of households would still be bollox, the measure of GDP/Household is meaningless, because there is no more than a passing relationship between GDP and household income.
1. Balance the budget but do so in a way that has a reasonable balance between tax rises and spending cuts (I think we're taxed enough apart from the 0.1%) and allocates spending cuts in a fair way too (sorry rich pensioners you need to be in this together with everyone else). 2. Defend our country and our culture. (Yes I am thinking of the EU and of Islam, defence spending, overseas aid and all the rest). 3. Defend free speech. We have proscribed speech right now. Some look for 'safe spaces'. Free speech means free speech - especially the right to offend someone else. 4. Is socially liberal - I'm fine with gays, soft drugs, etc. But doesn't seek to shove PC crap down my neck. 5. Enforce the law. (Rotherham, etc) 6. Put citizens first and the establishment second. Children over teachers, passengers over tube drivers, patients over doctors, customers over unions, etc.
I have no party to vote for these days. It's depressing.
[6] means that you get treated like dirt in the workplace in order to be treated with respect the rest of the time. Is that what you really want?
I disagree. Firstly it's about balance rather than it being a binary choice. But in fact companies that treat their staff badly invariably give poor customer service, in part because the staff themselves are demotivated and in part because there develops a poor interpersonal culture throughout the organisation.
The whole thing should happen organically anyway given adequate choice. it's no coincidence that those organisations with poor cultures usually have a well-established monopoly of some sort, whether public or private sector, so that customers - to the extent that they're even recognised as customers - come a poor second behind stitch-ups among decision makers.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I did not think I would ever see a Leader of the Conservative party issue this statement unless they defected to the Lib Dems or Labour. " being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
1. Balance the budget but do so in a way that has a reasonable balance between tax rises and spending cuts (I think we're taxed enough apart from the 0.1%) and allocates spending cuts in a fair way too (sorry rich pensioners you need to be in this together with everyone else). 2. Defend our country and our culture. (Yes I am thinking of the EU and of Islam, defence spending, overseas aid and all the rest). 3. Defend free speech. We have proscribed speech right now. Some look for 'safe spaces'. Free speech means free speech - especially the right to offend someone else. 4. Is socially liberal - I'm fine with gays, soft drugs, etc. But doesn't seek to shove PC crap down my neck. 5. Enforce the law. (Rotherham, etc) 6. Put citizens first and the establishment second. Children over teachers, passengers over tube drivers, patients over doctors, customers over unions, etc.
I have no party to vote for these days. It's depressing.
May I suggest a couple more?
7. Heavily restrict unskilled migration, and migration from extremist nations like Pakistan and Somalia. 8. A new independent body to regulate the BBC's blatant bias.
Nah, you don't even need to do that, just do what rcs has suggested, make immigration here cost more money, a £5000 annual surcharge for NHS insurance for non-residents, a £2500 per child per year non-resident surcharge for the education system etc... That automatically puts off all but the highest earners.
My main problem with that is it lets in the richest people, not the best people. You would still have endless Russian oligarchs kids swanning around Knightsbridge, but would never see a talented Engineer from the third world, as for nurses from the Philippines, forget it, £5000 is 3 years salary.
Well they would be able to come for high wage, high skill positions. £400 per month and no access to the benefits system means that minimum earnings of £30k for a single person and £50k for a family of four. If anything we would end up with more immigration of highly skilled people as the arbitrary blocks are removed and those who can't pay their way would be forced to leave as their NI numbers are rescinded and housing benefits and tax credits removed.
1. Balance the budget but do so in a way that has a reasonable balance between tax rises and spending cuts (I think we're taxed enough apart from the 0.1%) and allocates spending cuts in a fair way too (sorry rich pensioners you need to be in this together with everyone else). 2. Defend our country and our culture. (Yes I am thinking of the EU and of Islam, defence spending, overseas aid and all the rest). 3. Defend free speech. We have proscribed speech right now. Some look for 'safe spaces'. Free speech means free speech - especially the right to offend someone else. 4. Is socially liberal - I'm fine with gays, soft drugs, etc. But doesn't seek to shove PC crap down my neck. 5. Enforce the law. (Rotherham, etc) 6. Put citizens first and the establishment second. Children over teachers, passengers over tube drivers, patients over doctors, customers over unions, etc.
I have no party to vote for these days. It's depressing.
'These days'? When has any party advocated all those things? 'Never' is the answer.
But virtually no-one wants to vote for your eurowank.
1. Balance the budget but do so in a way that has a reasonable balance between tax rises and spending cuts (I think we're taxed enough apart from the 0.1%) and allocates spending cuts in a fair way too (sorry rich pensioners you need to be in this together with everyone else). 2. Defend our country and our culture. (Yes I am thinking of the EU and of Islam, defence spending, overseas aid and all the rest). 3. Defend free speech. We have proscribed speech right now. Some look for 'safe spaces'. Free speech means free speech - especially the right to offend someone else. 4. Is socially liberal - I'm fine with gays, soft drugs, etc. But doesn't seek to shove PC crap down my neck. 5. Enforce the law. (Rotherham, etc) 6. Put citizens first and the establishment second. Children over teachers, passengers over tube drivers, patients over doctors, customers over unions, etc.
I have no party to vote for these days. It's depressing.
[6] means that you get treated like dirt in the workplace in order to be treated with respect the rest of the time. Is that what you really want?
I disagree. Firstly it's about balance rather than it being a binary choice. But in fact companies that treat their staff badly invariably give poor customer service, in part because the staff themselves are demotivated and in part because there develops a poor interpersonal culture throughout the organisation.
The whole thing should happen organically anyway given adequate choice. it's no coincidence that those organisations with poor cultures usually have a well-established monopoly of some sort, whether public or private sector, so that customers - to the extent that they're even recognised as customers - come a poor second behind stitch-ups among decision makers.
Only a tomfool would set up a business that didn't have a USP. That's at least halfway to monopolistic trading. You are far too bright, David, to believe a word economics textbooks spout.
@MartinHoscik: Team Khan won’t be chuffed with Ken’s comment that Sadiq “is just like me” - caller immediately after said it was “kiss of death” for Sadiq.
1. Balance the budget but do so in a way that has a reasonable balance between tax rises and spending cuts (I think we're taxed enough apart from the 0.1%) and allocates spending cuts in a fair way too (sorry rich pensioners you need to be in this together with everyone else). 2. Defend our country and our culture. (Yes I am thinking of the EU and of Islam, defence spending, overseas aid and all the rest). 3. Defend free speech. We have proscribed speech right now. Some look for 'safe spaces'. Free speech means free speech - especially the right to offend someone else. 4. Is socially liberal - I'm fine with gays, soft drugs, etc. But doesn't seek to shove PC crap down my neck. 5. Enforce the law. (Rotherham, etc) 6. Put citizens first and the establishment second. Children over teachers, passengers over tube drivers, patients over doctors, customers over unions, etc.
I have no party to vote for these days. It's depressing.
'These days'? When has any party advocated all those things? 'Never' is the answer.
But virtually no-one wants to vote for your eurowank.
1. Balance the budget but do so in a way that has a reasonable balance between tax rises and spending cuts (I think we're taxed enough apart from the 0.1%) and allocates spending cuts in a fair way too (sorry rich pensioners you need to be in this together with everyone else). 2. Defend our country and our culture. (Yes I am thinking of the EU and of Islam, defence spending, overseas aid and all the rest). 3. Defend free speech. We have proscribed speech right now. Some look for 'safe spaces'. Free speech means free speech - especially the right to offend someone else. 4. Is socially liberal - I'm fine with gays, soft drugs, etc. But doesn't seek to shove PC crap down my neck. 5. Enforce the law. (Rotherham, etc) 6. Put citizens first and the establishment second. Children over teachers, passengers over tube drivers, patients over doctors, customers over unions, etc.
I have no party to vote for these days. It's depressing.
'These days'? When has any party advocated all those things? 'Never' is the answer.
But virtually no-one wants to vote for your eurowank.
Oh dear. And I had you down as a thinker.
Likewise - but your post at 10.08am shows that perhaps I was wrong.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I did not think I would ever see a Leader of the Conservative party issue this statement unless they defected to the Lib Dems or Labour. " being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
Keiran Pedley is a Spurs fan, I therefore agree with everything he says.
TSE, who I understand is cosy with CCHQ said that Cameron estimated that 70 of his MPs would come out for Leave. This is the root problem that not just Cameron but our senior politicians in general have, they surround themselves with nodding dogs, SPADs and focus groups who tell them what they want to hear. How on earth can Cameron understand the mood of the electorate if he doesn't understand the mood of his own MPs. In fairness to Blair, he made Prescott his deputy, he represented everything Blair wasn't and acted as a weather vane.
This referendum is about far more than EU membership, its a wake up call about accountability and public service, Cameron has taken his own people for granted, they won't all forgive him.
As I noted on an earlier thread - it's crap Party management. How can you not know that your best mate Gove is going to break for Leave? Or half your MPs? Either you've not been listening for quite a long time, or you've dismissed their valid concerns. When the driver of the bus looks over his shoulder and discovers half the passengers got off en route - he's only got himself to blame.
1. Balance the budget but do so in a way that has a reasonable balance between tax rises and spending cuts (I think we're taxed enough apart from the 0.1%) and allocates spending cuts in a fair way too (sorry rich pensioners you need to be in this together with everyone else). 2. Defend our country and our culture. (Yes I am thinking of the EU and of Islam, defence spending, overseas aid and all the rest). 3. Defend free speech. We have proscribed speech right now. Some look for 'safe spaces'. Free speech means free speech - especially the right to offend someone else. 4. Is socially liberal - I'm fine with gays, soft drugs, etc. But doesn't seek to shove PC crap down my neck. 5. Enforce the law. (Rotherham, etc) 6. Put citizens first and the establishment second. Children over teachers, passengers over tube drivers, patients over doctors, customers over unions, etc.
I have no party to vote for these days. It's depressing.
'These days'? When has any party advocated all those things? 'Never' is the answer.
But virtually no-one wants to vote for your eurowank.
Oh dear. And I had you down as a thinker.
Likewise - but your post at 10.08am shows that perhaps I was wrong.
I'm rather proud of it. I'm thinking of having it framed, to remind me in years to come how correct I can be.
In the column with Brendan Barber, Cameron embraces Osborne's £4,300 lie. This has so many deceptions in the calculations it is hard to always mention them all. Most easily understood is dividing the 2030 GDP difference by the 2015 number of households. David Cameron is a fundamentally dishonest person.
Even dividing the 2030 GDP difference by the 2030 projected number of households would still be bollox, the measure of GDP/Household is meaningless, because there is no more than a passing relationship between GDP and household income.
Well yes. There's also the problem that it assumed out of thin air that EEA membership was no advantage over WTO rules for service companies, even though EEA and EU members have exact same trade access for services.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
The Mirror really isn't very keen on Remain at all. I've seen a lot of pro-Brexit opinion articles - they know their readers. I agree it'd be a much better platform, but I can't see Cameron getting any audience at all.
Has he ever done a piece there? He's written one for NewDay recently. I forget that even exists.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
The Mirror really isn't very keen on Remain at all. I've seen a lot of pro-Brexit opinion articles - they know their readers. I agree it'd be a much better platform, but I can't see Cameron getting any audience at all.
Has he ever done a piece there? He's written one for NewDay recently. I forget that even exists.
It can't be long until they pull the plug on that paper surely...
Or Zac pulls off the shock of the century, UKIP beat the Tories in Wales and Scotland slides into a NOM with SLAB in third. I wonder what odds I can get on all of that...
Zac will lose because he won't even turn out his own Tory base.
Virtually every Tory activist I speak to is "meh".
I agree there is a lot of 'meh' and the opinion polls back that. But....
But what?
But considered opinion is saying that a sub-35% turnout in London gives Zac a 50/50 chance of winning Mayoralty. Same opinion from both sides.
Keiran Pedley is a Spurs fan, I therefore agree with everything he says.
TSE, who I understand is cosy with CCHQ said that Cameron estimated that 70 of his MPs would come out for Leave. This is the root problem that not just Cameron but our senior politicians in general have, they surround themselves with nodding dogs, SPADs and focus groups who tell them what they want to hear. How on earth can Cameron understand the mood of the electorate if he doesn't understand the mood of his own MPs. In fairness to Blair, he made Prescott his deputy, he represented everything Blair wasn't and acted as a weather vane.
This referendum is about far more than EU membership, its a wake up call about accountability and public service, Cameron has taken his own people for granted, they won't all forgive him.
FYI Keiran Pedley is a Labour supporter.
He's a Spurs fan, far more important than anything else
@jessphillips: Ken Livingstone must be suspended from the Labour Party
And that direction of travel is no doubt one reason why Corbyn was (and for that matter, apparently still is) unkeen to take action against Shah - apart from his general unwillingness to engage in confrontation.
How many others on the Labour left have made 'edgy' comments, either to burnish their 'radical' reputation or because they actually believe it?
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I did not think I would ever see a Leader of the Conservative party issue this statement unless they defected to the Lib Dems or Labour. " being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
Maybe that is what Cameron has really done?
These rights would only be at risk because the fecking Tories would want to take them away!
Either Cameron is a total hypocrite or he has just crossed the floor of the house.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I did not think I would ever see a Leader of the Conservative party issue this statement unless they defected to the Lib Dems or Labour. " being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
Maybe that is what Cameron has really done?
So now we have a 'Conservative' prime minister speaking like Jacques Delors.
Extraordinary. Either he is a 100% paid-up Europhile or he really does believe in absolutely nothing and will therefore say absolutely anything.
Either way, he proves himself dishonest and disreputable.
@jessphillips: Ken Livingstone must be suspended from the Labour Party
And that direction of travel is no doubt one reason why Corbyn was (and for that matter, apparently still is) unkeen to take action against Shah - apart from his general unwillingness to engage in confrontation.
How many others on the Labour left have made 'edgy' comments, either to burnish their 'radical' reputation or because they actually believe it?
I have a feeling that Staines minions have a whole filing cabinet full of them, just waiting to see the light of day.
Sadiq Khan tries to have it both ways depending on how big the story is. This is a man who responds to criticism of women having to go through a back entrance at an event by saying its a matter of respecting religious freedom.
In the column with Brendan Barber, Cameron embraces Osborne's £4,300 lie. This has so many deceptions in the calculations it is hard to always mention them all. Most easily understood is dividing the 2030 GDP difference by the 2015 number of households. David Cameron is a fundamentally dishonest person.
And yet here you are, Layne, still talking about it.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I did not think I would ever see a Leader of the Conservative party issue this statement unless they defected to the Lib Dems or Labour. " being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
Maybe that is what Cameron has really done?
Which of those do you oppose?
I oppose the view that we have these because of Europe. Equal treatment of workers on grounds of their sex comes from UK law back in the 1970s or earlier etc etc. We have a UK PM ignoring our history of making our own laws and being proud about that.
In the column with Brendan Barber, Cameron embraces Osborne's £4,300 lie. This has so many deceptions in the calculations it is hard to always mention them all. Most easily understood is dividing the 2030 GDP difference by the 2015 number of households. David Cameron is a fundamentally dishonest person.
And yet here you are, Layne, still talking about it.
That'll suit George very nicely.
Arron Banks did it again yesterday too.
He's getting a Knighthood from Dave were Remain to win.
Even dividing the 2030 GDP difference by the 2030 projected number of households would still be bollox, the measure of GDP/Household is meaningless, because there is no more than a passing relationship between GDP and household income.
The biggest mistake is taking seriously an economic forecast for 14 years time.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I was a Blairite. He's not appealing to me at all. I've no idea who he is anymore. He's pork-barreling HMG to win.
The interesting question is within the ABC1 are the 51% or the 36% more likely to turn out. I would suggest the latter by some margin, Leavers are more motivated.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I did not think I would ever see a Leader of the Conservative party issue this statement unless they defected to the Lib Dems or Labour. " being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
Maybe that is what Cameron has really done?
These rights would only be at risk because the fecking Tories would want to take them away!
Either Cameron is a total hypocrite or he has just crossed the floor of the house.
This government (and the Conservatives in Opposition) have opposed a great deal of pan-EU employment legislation. Cameron seems to be implying that if we left the EU, his own government would repeal these laws, and therefore EU membership is necessary to prevent his own government from acting in ways that it would like.
@jessphillips: Ken Livingstone must be suspended from the Labour Party
And that direction of travel is no doubt one reason why Corbyn was (and for that matter, apparently still is) unkeen to take action against Shah - apart from his general unwillingness to engage in confrontation.
How many others on the Labour left have made 'edgy' comments, either to burnish their 'radical' reputation or because they actually believe it?
Let's face reality. All Labour's ultra left leadership, Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne et al, would cheerfully see Israel wiped off the map. Just as they all supported the Provisional IRA etc. It's what they are.
Sadiq Khan tries to have it both ways depending on how big the story is. This is a man who responds to criticism of women having to go through a back entrance at an event by saying its a matter of respecting religious freedom.
Agreed, he is cut from the same cloth, just a better liar
I'd like to see the split of the ABs without the C1s, personally.
YouGov don't go into that level of detail.
This is going to sound very condescending, patronising, and elitist of me, but there's a reason Cameron decided to hold the referendum during the European Championships, that split explains it.
Keiran Pedley is a Spurs fan, I therefore agree with everything he says.
TSE, who I understand is cosy with CCHQ said that Cameron estimated that 70 of his MPs would come out for Leave. This is the root problem that not just Cameron but our senior politicians in general have, they surround themselves with nodding dogs, SPADs and focus groups who tell them what they want to hear. How on earth can Cameron understand the mood of the electorate if he doesn't understand the mood of his own MPs. In fairness to Blair, he made Prescott his deputy, he represented everything Blair wasn't and acted as a weather vane.
This referendum is about far more than EU membership, its a wake up call about accountability and public service, Cameron has taken his own people for granted, they won't all forgive him.
FYI Keiran Pedley is a Labour supporter.
I thought so, given what I've read whilst following his Twitter account.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I did not think I would ever see a Leader of the Conservative party issue this statement unless they defected to the Lib Dems or Labour. " being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
Maybe that is what Cameron has really done?
These rights would only be at risk because the fecking Tories would want to take them away!
Either Cameron is a total hypocrite or he has just crossed the floor of the house.
Maybe he's panicking and just not engaging his brain.
@jessphillips: Ken Livingstone must be suspended from the Labour Party
And that direction of travel is no doubt one reason why Corbyn was (and for that matter, apparently still is) unkeen to take action against Shah - apart from his general unwillingness to engage in confrontation.
How many others on the Labour left have made 'edgy' comments, either to burnish their 'radical' reputation or because they actually believe it?
I have a feeling that Staines minions have a whole filing cabinet full of them, just waiting to see the light of day.
drip drip drip drip
I imagine they've gone for a relatively junior MP first, having already nailed a few councillors.
FU..The ISIS combatant wearing the head cam was killed in that little encounter..
I know. I watched the full film on Vice. I presume the Peshmerga gave it to Vice, as they have had reporters on the front line with them for a long time now.
Keiran Pedley is a Spurs fan, I therefore agree with everything he says.
TSE, who I understand is cosy with CCHQ said that Cameron estimated that 70 of his MPs would come out for Leave. This is the root problem that not just Cameron but our senior politicians in general have, they surround themselves with nodding dogs, SPADs and focus groups who tell them what they want to hear. How on earth can Cameron understand the mood of the electorate if he doesn't understand the mood of his own MPs. In fairness to Blair, he made Prescott his deputy, he represented everything Blair wasn't and acted as a weather vane.
This referendum is about far more than EU membership, its a wake up call about accountability and public service, Cameron has taken his own people for granted, they won't all forgive him.
Blair didn't make Prescott his deputy; Prescott was independently elected at the same time (in fact, prescott ran against Blair for the leadership too). Blair did at least have the sense to listen to Prescott as the authentic voice of Labour, from time to time.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I did not think I would ever see a Leader of the Conservative party issue this statement unless they defected to the Lib Dems or Labour. " being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
Maybe that is what Cameron has really done?
These rights would only be at risk because the fecking Tories would want to take them away! Either Cameron is a total hypocrite or he has just crossed the floor of the house.
Corbyn and his party could have great fun with Cameron at the next PMQs. He should start by thanking the PM for his conversion to Labour policies on the social chapter. Then in follow up questions highlight each one and ask what led Cameron to his damascene conversion to the Labour view on each of them... If that does not cause heart attacks on the tory back benches nothing will... Mentioning Jaques Delors as another poster below highlighted would just add to the Labour merriment. The SDP and the Lib Dems could even join in.
Leave need to campaign hard on the housing issue to win over ABC1s, young people and Londoners. The OECD report says explicitly that housing would be more affordable if we left.
Sadiq Khan acting all shocked....lets not forget his own speechwriter* had to be sacked for disgusting social media posts both before and during his employment with Khan. Either Khan is incompetent and never checked or he turned a blind eye.
Keiran Pedley is a Spurs fan, I therefore agree with everything he says.
TSE, who I understand is cosy with CCHQ said that Cameron estimated that 70 of his MPs would come out for Leave. This is the root problem that not just Cameron but our senior politicians in general have, they surround themselves with nodding dogs, SPADs and focus groups who tell them what they want to hear. How on earth can Cameron understand the mood of the electorate if he doesn't understand the mood of his own MPs. In fairness to Blair, he made Prescott his deputy, he represented everything Blair wasn't and acted as a weather vane.
This referendum is about far more than EU membership, its a wake up call about accountability and public service, Cameron has taken his own people for granted, they won't all forgive him.
FYI Keiran Pedley is a Labour supporter.
I thought so, given what I've read whilst following his Twitter account.
Spurs and Zac Goldsmith are around the same odds on Betfair !
Keiran Pedley is a Spurs fan, I therefore agree with everything he says.
TSE, who I understand is cosy with CCHQ said that Cameron estimated that 70 of his MPs would come out for Leave. This is the root problem that not just Cameron but our senior politicians in general have, they surround themselves with nodding dogs, SPADs and focus groups who tell them what they want to hear. How on earth can Cameron understand the mood of the electorate if he doesn't understand the mood of his own MPs. In fairness to Blair, he made Prescott his deputy, he represented everything Blair wasn't and acted as a weather vane.
This referendum is about far more than EU membership, its a wake up call about accountability and public service, Cameron has taken his own people for granted, they won't all forgive him.
FYI Keiran Pedley is a Labour supporter.
I thought so, given what I've read whilst following his Twitter account.
Spurs and Zac Goldsmith are around the same odds on Betfair !
So Kieran should have 1 result to cheer shortly
If I had know Keiran was a Spurs fan, I would never have introduced him to Mike.
The interesting question is within the ABC1 are the 51% or the 36% more likely to turn out. I would suggest the latter by some margin, Leavers are more motivated.
Why do non-voters not vote? 'Nothing ever makes a difference' is a common reply. That is for an election, not a referendum. No one can say that upon the outcome of the referendum nothing will change.
It surely makes more sense to measure propensity to vote from the refendum sample directly, rather than superimpose demographic profiles from an election context.
From the Spectator article on the BBC - I find this extraordinary:
"The same ambiguity applies when it comes to the EU. Bourne commissioned a research company called Newswatch to analyse the discussion of the EU on the Today programme between March 2004 and last June. In the monitored sample, 4,275 guests appeared to talk about the EU, of whom just 132 were in favour of British withdrawal. That’s 3.2 per cent of the total, even though opinion polls in the same period put the level of public support for withdrawal at between 33 and 50 per cent. Of those 132, some 95 were members of Ukip and over a third of the pro-Brexit contributions were from one man, Nigel Farage."
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I did not think I would ever see a Leader of the Conservative party issue this statement unless they defected to the Lib Dems or Labour. " being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
Maybe that is what Cameron has really done?
I have absolutely no idea why Cameron has 'co-authored' the piece. It would stand perfectly well - within its context - coming from just barber.
Zac's down to 2% on Betfair, new poll coming out ?
People have had it with the Posh Boys.
You sound like a lefty class warrior. You're going to be very disappointed if Remain wins aren't you?
I'm expecting REMAIN to win after everything they've done.
In a way that's when the fun begins as we can start setting about destroying Cameron and Osborne for their treachery. We've got to see both of them humiliated and turfed out of office in disgrace.
Realistically Cameron will be off on his own terms I suppose, but we can still tear Osborne to pieces (especially if the Tories are mad enough to make him leader - Fingers crossed)
After the effort he has put in and the number of his own side he's alienated in the process, Cameron has to win big or he's likely to be toast in short order. 60-40 as a minimum to avoid a challenge over the summer?
If Remain wins - by whatever margin - Cameron and Osborne will be fine. This is reminding me of the Left's travails over unilateral disarmament in the 1980s. Yes, there was no end of abuse and bitterness whilst the argument raged, but once the view was settled everyone just shrugged and moved on. Even a die-hard unilateralist like Corbyn becoming leader hasn't revivified the matter. This will be Leave's last battle. If they lose, neither they nor anyone else will be able to summon up the energy to persevere any more.
Some Leavers are Rabid though.
As a unilateralist in the 80's I was wrong.
Cant see the reasonable leavers like Casino, Sean Fear let alone the even more rabid leavers saying that ever should Remain win.
The International Consortium of Investigative Journalists is about to unleash a huge data dump about how some of the world's wealthiest and most powerful people hide their cash.
Basically they are going to release all the data in searchable form. Although given the Guardian only managed 4 days worth of revelations, I am going to presume it won't be very exciting.
But how many of the "Poorest in our Country" read the Guardian? They're preaching to the choir, would have been much better off writing in the Mirror!
Cameron is virtue signalling to Blairites, it has ever been thus, hugging hoodies, huskies, turbines on the roof and now fellating trades unions over the EU, he is a disgrace.
I did not think I would ever see a Leader of the Conservative party issue this statement unless they defected to the Lib Dems or Labour. " being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
Maybe that is what Cameron has really done?
These rights would only be at risk because the fecking Tories would want to take them away!
Either Cameron is a total hypocrite or he has just crossed the floor of the house.
This government (and the Conservatives in Opposition) have opposed a great deal of pan-EU employment legislation. Cameron seems to be implying that if we left the EU, his own government would repeal these laws, and therefore EU membership is necessary to prevent his own government from acting in ways that it would like.
Honestly, I'm gobsmacked by it. It's just beyond wrong on every level.
There were a lot of ABC1s at the Spectator debate, which Leave "won", didn't it?
I was at that debate. Leave won 2:1 on the voting card.
Was it a Conservative leaning and politically engaged audience? Yes, but that's precisely why it presages such significance for the internal politics of the Party after the referendum.
I've never seen or heard a politician cheered as loudly as Dan Hannan was. It was deafening.
Comments
I won’t be holding my breath however,
Alistair said:
» show previous quotes
No.
There are two options for what he is saying. The first is tautologically pointless. No one is blaming invisible pixies for the people being crushed to death. No insight is gained from saying it was crowd members that crushed other crowd members. We know that. It is a vacuous, pseudo-intellectual statement at best.
The other option is that it is victim blaming because quite surely some of those who were crushed so hard that their rib cages collapsed were also pressing against other who had the same happen to them either before or after they died. And this happened whilst people only feet away had no idea it was occurring. In crush and pre-crush situations people can take locally optimal, even logical, decisions for themselves that are devastating for the crowd as a whole. Not one person in that crowd thought "I know, I'll push this person so hard they won't be able to breather"
The whole notion of "not pushing" is based on some utopian vision of crowds
People are also completely ignoring that the reason why there was such a rush
Look, here's the report on the Love Parade crowd disaster to get this clear of football fans.
http://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.1140/epjds7
Here's the key lines
"As was pointed out in Sec. 2.3, when the crowd was trapped in a situation of extreme density, it did not have a chance to get an overview of the situation and possible ways to improve it, in particular to get out of the area."
"However, it took some time until the criticality of the situation was noticed and evacuation measures were taken. When the evacuation finally became effective, the ramp cleared quickly."
In dense crowd situations it takes external observation and direction for a crowd to safely disperse.
Hmm , still does not get away from the fact that if they were not acting like a herd of wildebeest and just rushing forward then it would not have happened.
For sure once you are in the melee it is hard to do anything. I was involved in similar crowds, much bigger ones indeed, and it was scary indeed. I went down stairway 13 at Ibrox on day of the disaster , we heard the roar as the last minute goal was scored and people started to try to go back, we were at bottom and just left, only hearing about disaster later. At that time, in Scotland at least, most people were at best half cut as well. Had some scary ones at Hampden with over 100K crowds. Surprising it did not happen more often.
I'd already decided not to vote Conservative at the local elections, even before the formation of the Patrick Party [on a serious note, if something like that were put together I'd be more than happy to lend a hand with writing/proofing etc], but, if not, that would've pushed me away.
Mr. Owls, I share your contempt for Jess Phillips. [And Livingstone, presumably].
DEFECTION: Cllr Greg Robbins outlines why he has today joined the Welsh Conservatives, quitting Plaid Cymru.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChHr479XEAAKe88.jpg
The whole thing should happen organically anyway given adequate choice. it's no coincidence that those organisations with poor cultures usually have a well-established monopoly of some sort, whether public or private sector, so that customers - to the extent that they're even recognised as customers - come a poor second behind stitch-ups among decision makers.
" being in Europe has helped to deliver many of the crucial rights that underpin fairness at work. Paid holidays, maternity rights, equal treatment for the millions of people working part-time, protections for agency workers, even equal pay for women at work: all are guaranteed by Europe and all could be at risk if we left."
Maybe that is what Cameron has really done?
Why are you being a cretin ?
Why don't you stop being a cretin ?
and of course
Have you stopped being a cretin yet ?
Plenty of choice
It's a pathetic statement.
Has he ever done a piece there? He's written one for NewDay recently. I forget that even exists.
How many others on the Labour left have made 'edgy' comments, either to burnish their 'radical' reputation or because they actually believe it?
Either Cameron is a total hypocrite or he has just crossed the floor of the house.
YouGov referendum SEG split
ABC1s 51% IN 36% OUT
C2DEs 27% IN 51% OUT
In past elections ABC1s much more likely to vote
Extraordinary. Either he is a 100% paid-up Europhile or he really does believe in absolutely nothing and will therefore say absolutely anything.
Either way, he proves himself dishonest and disreputable.
That'll suit George very nicely.
He's getting a Knighthood from Dave were Remain to win.
'Nice shot Abu, but you roasted us too!'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3563080/Nice-shot-Abu-roasted-Chaotic-footage-shows-reality-ISIS-fighters-hapless-militants-bicker-moan-firefight.html
The western government really should be using this as anti-ISIS propaganda. You too could go to Syria and be a laughing stock.
https://twitter.com/ConorMcGinn/status/725623850457796608
A good day to bury bad news.
This is going to sound very condescending, patronising, and elitist of me, but there's a reason Cameron decided to hold the referendum during the European Championships, that split explains it.
I imagine they've gone for a relatively junior MP first, having already nailed a few councillors.
And shock horror...
http://order-order.com/2016/04/28/khan-campaigned-for-naz-shah-defended-ken-on-anti-semitism/
* and nobody seemed to wonder how this guy got the job in the first place given his piss poor qualifications / suitability for the role.
"What is Fascist is your belief in your unfettered belief to define Fascism. Among other things"
I mean FFS...
So Kieran should have 1 result to cheer shortly
It surely makes more sense to measure propensity to vote from the refendum sample directly, rather than superimpose demographic profiles from an election context.
http://news.sky.com/story/1686289/why-is-osborne-so-sure-of-eu-campaign-victory?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
"This is a preview to the long anticipated HM Treasury report into the short-term impact of a Brexit vote.
As we know, the Chancellor has already anticipated that this could include a spike in mortgage costs.
Undoubtedly, this will leave pro-Leave campaigners absolutely furious.
This second report due in early May will be much more the horror story than the Project Fear alleged of the first report."
"The same ambiguity applies when it comes to the EU. Bourne commissioned a research company called Newswatch to analyse the discussion of the EU on the Today programme between March 2004 and last June. In the monitored sample, 4,275 guests appeared to talk about the EU, of whom just 132 were in favour of British withdrawal. That’s 3.2 per cent of the total, even though opinion polls in the same period put the level of public support for withdrawal at between 33 and 50 per cent. Of those 132, some 95 were members of Ukip and over a third of the pro-Brexit contributions were from one man, Nigel Farage."
Everything Remain are doing they are giving plenty of warning about.
As a unilateralist in the 80's I was wrong.
Cant see the reasonable leavers like Casino, Sean Fear let alone the even more rabid leavers saying that ever should Remain win.
I am 67% Leave 33% WNV at the moment BTW
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36158172
http://uk.businessinsider.com/panama-papers-data-dump-in-may-2016-4?r=US&IR=T
Basically they are going to release all the data in searchable form. Although given the Guardian only managed 4 days worth of revelations, I am going to presume it won't be very exciting.
Was it a Conservative leaning and politically engaged audience? Yes, but that's precisely why it presages such significance for the internal politics of the Party after the referendum.
I've never seen or heard a politician cheered as loudly as Dan Hannan was. It was deafening.