So have the supporters of a 'rules based international community' explained how this 'rules based international community' would have:
1) Brought the Hamas leadership to justice
2) Ensured Israel's security from further attacks from Gaza
And after that can anyone explain how 2.5m people are supposed to be economically supported by an area smaller than the Isle of Wight ?
Answer those questions and you might be on the way to a workable peace process.
The sad thing is it’s possible for an area the size of the Isle of Wight to support many millions of people. Take Singapore, which even looks just like the IoW and houses twice Gaza’s population on twice the area, and is one of the worlds richest countries. But you need: peace, transport access and free trade with neighbouring countries, high quality governance, substantial manufacturing and service sector exports to counterbalance food and raw material imports.
Gaza is actually quite well situated on the Eastern Med close to Israel, Saudi and the gulf states, Egypt, Turkey and Cyprus. But history and geopolitics mean it’ll never be the Singapore of the Levant.
Plus rule of law, a hard working populace, tolerance towards those different and I'm sure many other things which aren't found in Gaza.
Dubai would be a more relevant example but if you wanted to create another Dubai you wouldn't want to start with Gaza.
I didn’t use Dubai because that was subsidised by next door Abu Dhabi’s oil wealth allowing it to invest vast amounts and build a mega city from scratch. Singapore developed with few raw material resources but those other things you and I listed.
There should be scope for a Levantine entrepôt like Singapore. Beirut could have been it, but civil war put paid to that. Tel Aviv almost is, but Israel’s geopolitical position makes it impossible. Alexandria has the history but the hinterland is too poor. Syria ruled itself out long ago. And Turkey already has its entrepôt at the other end of the Anatolian peninsula.
Jan Morris’s Hav, about a fictional city roughly where Antakya now is gives a taste of what that Levantine hub might have looked like.
A point that seems to be sometimes overlooked is that Israel has no practical choice but to attempt to crush Hamas. I can't imagine that there is a single significant figure in Israeli public life who doesn't accept that. Israel is a democracy and its leadership simply cannot ignore the views of its population which has been traumatised.
Indeed, the whole point of the extreme performative sadistic cruelty shown by Hamas (the details of what happened to those young people still haunts me) was to ensure that there would be an overwhelming reaction. Hamas delights in the destruction both in Israel and Gaza. And will no doubt be pleased with reactions in the West such as today's London demonstrators which is why, frankly, I rather despise them. (Where were they for the Uyghurs?) The lackof sympathy for our own Jewish community is quite something. Just imagine being a Jew in London.
It is to the credit of most of our political leaders that, so far, they have faced down this protest.
Meanwhile, the BBC has been speaking to some of those attending today's pro-Palestine march.
"I am a Christian and God tells us to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. So I just felt absolutely compelled to come today," one woman tells us.
When asked about PM Rishi Sunak's comments that protesting on Armistice Day is disrespectful, she says: "I think it is the perfect day to actually do it on. Because that's what armistice is, it is a call for ceasefire and a call for stopping war."
Yeah, right. No doubt, she's been actively speaking for the Uyghurs, Rohingyas, Tibetans, Armenians, and everyone else who genuinely can't speak for themselves. Not to mention the various Jewish communities across the globe facing continuous and insidious discrimination.
Not such a great problem for the Palestinians who, let's face it, don't seem to lacking in spokesmen, do they?.
I don't know of any Palestinian spokespersons.
300,000 of them just marched through London, apparently.
In terms of violence the only ones doing that were the far right and knuckle draggers . The pro Palestinian March was peaceful although sadly a few did have some anti -Semitic flags .
That shouldn’t detract from the overwhelming majority who were there to promotes peace and a ceasefire.
Braverman should be fired for trying to incite violence and Sunak should grow a spine and stop acting like a spineless gimp .
In the US "Oreo" is generally considered racist (black on the outside, white on the inside).
And then there is "watermelon", for greens who are accused of being socialist on the inside.
The new rural Green Party councillors in various parts of the Home Counties have been called Mangoes. Lib Dem amber on the inside.
The whole coconut thing is stupid, self-destructive for BAME communities and perpetuates the hyper racialising of everything. A US fashion we should be wary of importing. Stick with criticising Rishi for being posh (or nouveau, depending on taste), that’s much more British.
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
Are these the ones that take Tommy Robinson's or George Galloway's view on the Israel Palestine question ?
Well I’ve just seen Palestinian protestors shooting fireworks into Vauxhall station so these BBC guys aren’t trying very hard
I'm not there, but I suspect the BBC see it as their duty to unify, calm things down, and generally try and be "balanced". Moreover, due to health & safety and corporate policy, they probably report at a slight distance.
So they're not going to see as much bad behaviour and would be reluctant to highlight it even if they did, in case it cuts across that.
Report from Michigan - a key swing state in next year's election.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/11/biden-israel-michigan-support-00125320 FARMINGTON HILLS, Michigan — It’s well past 9 p.m. on a Wednesday in late October. Evening prayers have long concluded, but a few congregants lag behind to talk. Outside the Farmington Hills Community Mosque, rain batters the concrete. Inside, the mosque’s brightly lit conference room is heavy with grief and exhaustion.
Imran Shehada, a 47-year-old bespectacled physician, sits at a conference table, hands clasped tightly in front of him, recounting the last few days. The Saturday before, an airstrike killed his cousin, a dentist in Gaza, along with the cousin’s daughter and two adult sons. And on Monday, another four cousins were killed. Two of them were women in their 20s, one of whom was pregnant with her first child; two others were elementary-age children. And two hours before Shehada arrived at the mosque, his sister called from Gaza in distress. She told him that the house next door had been bombed and 10 people were dead — some of them relatives on their father’s side...
An absolutely openly anti semitic rally here (Piers Corbyn is present of course)
A guy just spoke on the megaphone and said “Zionism is taking over the world” - and got very loud cheers
You can believe me or not
About ten yeas ago after a particularly brutal attack on Gaza by the Israelis you wrote one of the best posts I have ever read of yours lambasting the Israelis for their brutality. It was so powerfully written that I kept a copy of it and I even sent it to a relative who was closely involved. Unfortunately it was several computers ago and I can't find it now but it's interesting how your views have changed over time and even your articulacy
So have the supporters of a 'rules based international community' explained how this 'rules based international community' would have:
1) Brought the Hamas leadership to justice
2) Ensured Israel's security from further attacks from Gaza
And after that can anyone explain how 2.5m people are supposed to be economically supported by an area smaller than the Isle of Wight ?
Answer those questions and you might be on the way to a workable peace process.
The sad thing is it’s possible for an area the size of the Isle of Wight to support many millions of people. Take Singapore, which even looks just like the IoW and houses twice Gaza’s population on twice the area, and is one of the worlds richest countries. But you need: peace, transport access and free trade with neighbouring countries, high quality governance, substantial manufacturing and service sector exports to counterbalance food and raw material imports.
Gaza is actually quite well situated on the Eastern Med close to Israel, Saudi and the gulf states, Egypt, Turkey and Cyprus. But history and geopolitics mean it’ll never be the Singapore of the Levant.
Plus rule of law, a hard working populace, tolerance towards those different and I'm sure many other things which aren't found in Gaza.
Dubai would be a more relevant example but if you wanted to create another Dubai you wouldn't want to start with Gaza.
I didn’t use Dubai because that was subsidised by next door Abu Dhabi’s oil wealth allowing it to invest vast amounts and build a mega city from scratch. Singapore developed with few raw material resources but those other things you and I listed.
There should be scope for a Levantine entrepôt like Singapore. Beirut could have been it, but civil war put paid to that. Tel Aviv almost is, but Israel’s geopolitical position makes it impossible. Alexandria has the history but the hinterland is too poor. Syria ruled itself out long ago. And Turkey already has its entrepôt at the other end of the Anatolian peninsula.
Jan Morris’s Hav, about a fictional city roughly where Antakya now is gives a taste of what that Levantine hub might have looked like.
Another thing successful countries need is birth control.
They can always allow immigration of those that will bring benefits but a population reproducing faster than resources do will lead to disaster.
Gaza's population was about 300k when occupied by Israel in 1967:
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
Of course you do. It iis what you want to believe.
It must be hugely disappointing to Braverman, and a few on here, that 300,000 or whatever managed to wander through London pretty peacefully. Attempts to scrabble around to find terrible behaviour have become increasingly desperate as the day goes on, although of course a bit will be found and amplified. My spies in the crowd tell me it was 'lovely and peaceful'.
Meanwhile, Tommy and his 200 or so EDL thugs have scrapped with the police, tried to find fights with their opponents, and generally behaved like fascist thugs who have no respect for Armistice day.
So have the supporters of a 'rules based international community' explained how this 'rules based international community' would have:
1) Brought the Hamas leadership to justice
2) Ensured Israel's security from further attacks from Gaza
And after that can anyone explain how 2.5m people are supposed to be economically supported by an area smaller than the Isle of Wight ?
Answer those questions and you might be on the way to a workable peace process.
The sad thing is it’s possible for an area the size of the Isle of Wight to support many millions of people. Take Singapore, which even looks just like the IoW and houses twice Gaza’s population on twice the area, and is one of the worlds richest countries. But you need: peace, transport access and free trade with neighbouring countries, high quality governance, substantial manufacturing and service sector exports to counterbalance food and raw material imports.
Gaza is actually quite well situated on the Eastern Med close to Israel, Saudi and the gulf states, Egypt, Turkey and Cyprus. But history and geopolitics mean it’ll never be the Singapore of the Levant.
Plus rule of law, a hard working populace, tolerance towards those different and I'm sure many other things which aren't found in Gaza.
Dubai would be a more relevant example but if you wanted to create another Dubai you wouldn't want to start with Gaza.
I didn’t use Dubai because that was subsidised by next door Abu Dhabi’s oil wealth allowing it to invest vast amounts and build a mega city from scratch. Singapore developed with few raw material resources but those other things you and I listed.
There should be scope for a Levantine entrepôt like Singapore. Beirut could have been it, but civil war put paid to that. Tel Aviv almost is, but Israel’s geopolitical position makes it impossible. Alexandria has the history but the hinterland is too poor. Syria ruled itself out long ago. And Turkey already has its entrepôt at the other end of the Anatolian peninsula.
Jan Morris’s Hav, about a fictional city roughly where Antakya now is gives a taste of what that Levantine hub might have looked like.
Another thing successful countries need is birth control.
They can always allow immigration of those that will bring benefits but a population reproducing faster than resources do will lead to disaster.
Gaza's population was about 300k when occupied by Israel in 1967:
Successful countries benefit from some of the corollaries of birth control - female workforce engagement and rights, high education, long life expectancy and so on. The actual growth of working age population per se is extremely good for economic growth. Britain’s economic miracle in the 19th century came when our birth rate was eye wateringly high.
I’d say the causation is the other way anyway. Rich and healthy societies have fewer children. Demographic transition. See Hans Rosling.
It must be hugely disappointing to Braverman, and a few on here, that 300,000 or whatever managed to wander through London pretty peacefully. Attempts to scrabble around to find terrible behaviour have become increasingly desperate as the day goes on, although of course a bit will be found and amplified. My spies in the crowd tell me it was 'lovely and peaceful'.
Meanwhile, Tommy and his 200 or so EDL thugs have scrapped with the police, tried to find fights with their opponents, and generally behaved like fascist thugs who have no respect for Armistice day.
I thought their attempt to recreate the disintegrating shield wall at Senlac was a fitting tribute. They were a bunch of losers as well.
It must be hugely disappointing to Braverman, and a few on here, that 300,000 or whatever managed to wander through London pretty peacefully. Attempts to scrabble around to find terrible behaviour have become increasingly desperate as the day goes on, although of course a bit will be found and amplified. My spies in the crowd tell me it was 'lovely and peaceful'.
Meanwhile, Tommy and his 200 or so EDL thugs have scrapped with the police, tried to find fights with their opponents, and generally behaved like fascist thugs who have no respect for Armistice day.
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
He called me a twat because I pointed out this morning this his presence looking for the marchers to be causing trouble was totally predicable and it was totally predictable that he'd big up any trouble.
Now, I don't mind Leon calling me a twat - it's a badge of honour tbh.
For the record, I don't want to see any violence but the day is not over yet and there are no doubt extremists on both sides who would love to cause problems.
I certainly don't discount that there could be trouble from the pro-Palestinian side but so far the few 100 neo-Nazis seem to have caused most of the issues - notnecessarily the narrative Leon was seeking.
Black lives don't seem to matter when its African Muslims being killed by Arab ** Muslims.
** The Sudanese Arabs being more Arabised than actual Arabs - the narcissism of small differences having a brutal effect in Sudan.
I went to a private school in Khartoum, run by missionaries, where the majority of students there were children of displaced families from the south, mostly Christians. A foreigner would probably have thought all of us looked the same, but to a Sudanese, there was a huge difference – I was an Arab and one or two shades lighter than my classmates, which gave me immense privilege.
Although I did not know why exactly I was “superior” to my darker non-Arab classmates, I knew for sure I was because everyone important I saw on television looked like me. Indeed, political and economic power was almost exclusively in the hands of members of the Arabised tribes.
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
It must be hugely disappointing to Braverman, and a few on here, that 300,000 or whatever managed to wander through London pretty peacefully. Attempts to scrabble around to find terrible behaviour have become increasingly desperate as the day goes on, although of course a bit will be found and amplified. My spies in the crowd tell me it was 'lovely and peaceful'.
Meanwhile, Tommy and his 200 or so EDL thugs have scrapped with the police, tried to find fights with their opponents, and generally behaved like fascist thugs who have no respect for Armistice day.
The problem is not the violence, it’s the Jew hate embedded in there, in broad daylight. I hope a lot of people are arrested over the next few days and face consequences.
Suella has unhelpfully tried to insert herself into a sensitive situation and make it all about her, creating a straw man about desecration of the cenotaph and violence rather than supporting the police to do what they need to do (and which they appear to have done pretty well this time).
It must be hugely disappointing to Braverman, and a few on here, that 300,000 or whatever managed to wander through London pretty peacefully. Attempts to scrabble around to find terrible behaviour have become increasingly desperate as the day goes on, although of course a bit will be found and amplified. My spies in the crowd tell me it was 'lovely and peaceful'.
Meanwhile, Tommy and his 200 or so EDL thugs have scrapped with the police, tried to find fights with their opponents, and generally behaved like fascist thugs who have no respect for Armistice day.
Indeed, Britain fought AGAINST Fascism.
We fought against an attacker, and that attacker was characterised as Fascist. We fought against the French too. Revolutionary, Republican and Fascist.. hard to pick.
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
Uh oh, the likes detective is on the case.
I don't know how he does this! Before we even get onto why.
So have the supporters of a 'rules based international community' explained how this 'rules based international community' would have:
1) Brought the Hamas leadership to justice
2) Ensured Israel's security from further attacks from Gaza
And after that can anyone explain how 2.5m people are supposed to be economically supported by an area smaller than the Isle of Wight ?
Answer those questions and you might be on the way to a workable peace process.
The sad thing is it’s possible for an area the size of the Isle of Wight to support many millions of people. Take Singapore, which even looks just like the IoW and houses twice Gaza’s population on twice the area, and is one of the worlds richest countries. But you need: peace, transport access and free trade with neighbouring countries, high quality governance, substantial manufacturing and service sector exports to counterbalance food and raw material imports.
Gaza is actually quite well situated on the Eastern Med close to Israel, Saudi and the gulf states, Egypt, Turkey and Cyprus. But history and geopolitics mean it’ll never be the Singapore of the Levant.
Plus rule of law, a hard working populace, tolerance towards those different and I'm sure many other things which aren't found in Gaza.
Dubai would be a more relevant example but if you wanted to create another Dubai you wouldn't want to start with Gaza.
I didn’t use Dubai because that was subsidised by next door Abu Dhabi’s oil wealth allowing it to invest vast amounts and build a mega city from scratch. Singapore developed with few raw material resources but those other things you and I listed.
There should be scope for a Levantine entrepôt like Singapore. Beirut could have been it, but civil war put paid to that. Tel Aviv almost is, but Israel’s geopolitical position makes it impossible. Alexandria has the history but the hinterland is too poor. Syria ruled itself out long ago. And Turkey already has its entrepôt at the other end of the Anatolian peninsula.
Jan Morris’s Hav, about a fictional city roughly where Antakya now is gives a taste of what that Levantine hub might have looked like.
Another thing successful countries need is birth control.
They can always allow immigration of those that will bring benefits but a population reproducing faster than resources do will lead to disaster.
Gaza's population was about 300k when occupied by Israel in 1967:
Successful countries benefit from some of the corollaries of birth control - female workforce engagement and rights, high education, long life expectancy and so on. The actual growth of working age population per se is extremely good for economic growth. Britain’s economic miracle in the 19th century came when our birth rate was eye wateringly high.
I’d say the causation is the other way anyway. Rich and healthy societies have fewer children. Demographic transition. See Hans Rosling.
Wasn't it more of a falling death rate which saw the population increase ?
Whatever the case the resulting increase in population was able to boost the economy because the agricultural and industrial revolutions allowed the extra people to be productively employed.
Without those technological breakthroughs any increase in population would have resulted in increased poverty, starvation and societal failure.
There was also the opportunity to migration to North America and Australasia for any surplus population.
With Gaza the situation would be much easier if the population increase of the last two generations had migrated to the rest of the Arab world.
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
My honest appraisal is that 90% of the “football hooligans” are truculent idiots looking for a fight and 10% are actual patriots feeling concern. At the same time 90% of the pro-Palestine marchers are peaceful, amiable, perhaps ill advised but well meaning and only 5-10% are sinister menacing types - all in black, masked, punchy, tinged with some real hostility - anti semitism or whatever
But do the maths
That means you’ve got 180 twattish football hooligans and 15-30,000 sinister quasi-Islamists on the streets of London
It must be hugely disappointing to Braverman, and a few on here, that 300,000 or whatever managed to wander through London pretty peacefully. Attempts to scrabble around to find terrible behaviour have become increasingly desperate as the day goes on, although of course a bit will be found and amplified. My spies in the crowd tell me it was 'lovely and peaceful'.
Meanwhile, Tommy and his 200 or so EDL thugs have scrapped with the police, tried to find fights with their opponents, and generally behaved like fascist thugs who have no respect for Armistice day.
Indeed, Britain fought AGAINST Fascism.
We fought against an attacker, and that attacker was characterised as Fascist. We fought against the French too. Revolutionary, Republican and Fascist.. hard to pick.
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
Of course you do. It iis what you want to believe.
No. I genuinely believe @Leon to be fair in his reporting and to report back what he sees on the ground. For example, the fairness of the police. I don't doubt he'd be quick to report on the activities of Tommy Robinson and his ilk if he saw it.
The bigger question is those being so quick to dismiss what he says because it's inconvenient for them.
It must be hugely disappointing to Braverman, and a few on here, that 300,000 or whatever managed to wander through London pretty peacefully. Attempts to scrabble around to find terrible behaviour have become increasingly desperate as the day goes on, although of course a bit will be found and amplified. My spies in the crowd tell me it was 'lovely and peaceful'.
Meanwhile, Tommy and his 200 or so EDL thugs have scrapped with the police, tried to find fights with their opponents, and generally behaved like fascist thugs who have no respect for Armistice day.
Indeed, Britain fought AGAINST Fascism.
We fought against an attacker, and that attacker was characterised as Fascist. We fought against the French too. Revolutionary, Republican and Fascist.. hard to pick.
Massive failure of understanding there.
Go on. (Genuinely don't mind if you have a good point)
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
Uh oh, the likes detective is on the case.
I don't know how he does this! Before we even get onto why.
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
My honest appraisal is that 90% of the “football hooligans” are truculent idiots looking for a fight and 10% are actual patriots feeling concern. At the same time 90% of the pro-Palestine marchers are peaceful, amiable, perhaps ill advised but well meaning and only 5-10% are sinister menacing types - all in black, masked, punchy, tinged with some real hostility - anti semitism or whatever
But do the maths
That means you’ve got 180 twattish football hooligans and 15-30,000 sinister quasi-Islamists on the streets of London
Yes, that feels about right.
Also worth noting that, due to those numbers, the police will move in on the former today and the latter later in days to come.
It's the only thing they can do given the numbers.
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
Uh oh, the likes detective is on the case.
Yes, because people do it to try and back a point and cause, and give it popularity, credence and prominence to intimidate the other side.
It's all rather pathetic really - particularly when they are shit points.
It's the same 8-12 usual suspects who do it, who aren't in the slightest bit representative, and it helps to call it out lest others get overly influenced by it.
Unless the Tories really do wish to spend a long, long time in opposition.
While rejoining the EU anytime soon looks a long shot, it’s quite clear that a majority of people now see Brexit, in the way the Tories have implemented it (which, remember, still wasn’t damaging enough for La Farage), has been a bad mistake. Putting the instigator of this national disaster at the head of their party and they might as well headline their first party conference thereafter with the slogan ‘sensible people, don’t vote for us!’.
War crimes continue to be committed in Gaza, but the World remains largely silent. Well done Macron for calling for a ceasefire.
I remember reading post after post from you about War Crimes on 7th October, and thereafter.
Well done you for taking such a strong moral stance.
Israel seems to have very recently reduced the number of victims of those War Crimes from 1,400 to 1,200.
With respect, as a nerdy, obsessive, contrarian and off-the-scale aspergery train-nerd I sort of think you're essentially harmless and at the same time not really worth listening to on politics so I ignore what you say.
War crimes continue to be committed in Gaza, but the World remains largely silent. Well done Macron for calling for a ceasefire.
I remember reading post after post from you about War Crimes on 7th October, and thereafter.
Well done you for taking such a strong moral stance.
Israel seems to have very recently reduced the number of victims of those War Crimes from 1,400 to 1,200.
With respect, as a nerdy, obsessive, contrarian and off-the-scale aspergery train-nerd I sort of think you're essentially harmless and at the same time not really worth listening to on politics so I ignore what you say.
Play the ball, not the man. Too much of this sort of snark from multiple quarters in the last couple of weeks.
Today hasn't quite worked out as Suella would have hoped. To keep her leadership ambitions alive she needs to go nuclear: call a press conference this evening, issuing Rishi with a 'back me or sack me' ultimatum.
It must be hugely disappointing to Braverman, and a few on here, that 300,000 or whatever managed to wander through London pretty peacefully. Attempts to scrabble around to find terrible behaviour have become increasingly desperate as the day goes on, although of course a bit will be found and amplified. My spies in the crowd tell me it was 'lovely and peaceful'.
Meanwhile, Tommy and his 200 or so EDL thugs have scrapped with the police, tried to find fights with their opponents, and generally behaved like fascist thugs who have no respect for Armistice day.
Indeed, Britain fought AGAINST Fascism.
We fought against an attacker, and that attacker was characterised as Fascist. We fought against the French too. Revolutionary, Republican and Fascist.. hard to pick.
Massive failure of understanding there.
Go on. (Genuinely don't mind if you have a good point)
Ok: "We fought against an attacker" Well not strictly; we declared war on Nazi Germany when Nazi Germany hadn't attacked us. But we did that in reluctant recognition that the Fascists led by Hitler had to be stopped because Fascism was going to stop at nothing. We proactively fought to stop Fascism.
War crimes continue to be committed in Gaza, but the World remains largely silent. Well done Macron for calling for a ceasefire.
I remember reading post after post from you about War Crimes on 7th October, and thereafter.
Well done you for taking such a strong moral stance.
Israel seems to have very recently reduced the number of victims of those War Crimes from 1,400 to 1,200.
With respect, as a nerdy, obsessive, contrarian and off-the-scale aspergery train-nerd I sort of think you're essentially harmless and at the same time not really worth listening to on politics so I ignore what you say.
Is this an invitation for others to posit why listening to a thirty-something premature-Victor-Meldrew would be equally futile?
One prediction: Leon will be on here at some point highlighting even the slightest issue.
But I am here. And you’re trying to frame a narrative in a. way that I can see - with my own eyes - is completely preposterous
There is a big crowd to my left shooting fireworks everywhere. The riot police do nothing because there’s nothing they can do. They can’t arrest 10,000 people. The marchers have been asked to go home and they are refusing
You've gone looking for trouble from the Pro-Palestinian side and predictably, amid a crowd of hundreds of thousands, you've found it.
We all appreciated there could be trouble; the surprise is that so far there has not been more.
Meanwhile you've dismissed the neo-Nazis as "200 pathetic, drunk football hooligans".
Forgive me if I take my news from proper journalists, not some right-wing extremist with an axe to grind.
I see this predictable dismissal got four equally predictable likes from the usual suspects.
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
My honest appraisal is that 90% of the “football hooligans” are truculent idiots looking for a fight and 10% are actual patriots feeling concern. At the same time 90% of the pro-Palestine marchers are peaceful, amiable, perhaps ill advised but well meaning and only 5-10% are sinister menacing types - all in black, masked, punchy, tinged with some real hostility - anti semitism or whatever
But do the maths
That means you’ve got 180 twattish football hooligans and 15-30,000 sinister quasi-Islamists on the streets of London
Yes, that feels about right.
Also worth noting that, due to those numbers, the police will move in on the former today and the latter later in days to come.
It's the only thing they can do given the numbers.
I think that’s right. Police have already said they are better served recording most hate crimes on camera and arresting later, unless there is an imminent threat to public order.
I have to admit after the string of abject failures in the Met over the last few years they seem to have done a very good job today.
War crimes continue to be committed in Gaza, but the World remains largely silent. Well done Macron for calling for a ceasefire.
I remember reading post after post from you about War Crimes on 7th October, and thereafter.
Well done you for taking such a strong moral stance.
Israel seems to have very recently reduced the number of victims of those War Crimes from 1,400 to 1,200.
With respect, as a nerdy, obsessive, contrarian and off-the-scale aspergery train-nerd I sort of think you're essentially harmless and at the same time not really worth listening to on politics so I ignore what you say.
Is this an invitation for others to posit why listening to a thirty-something premature-Victor-Meldrew would be equally futile?
War crimes continue to be committed in Gaza, but the World remains largely silent. Well done Macron for calling for a ceasefire.
I remember reading post after post from you about War Crimes on 7th October, and thereafter.
Well done you for taking such a strong moral stance.
Israel seems to have very recently reduced the number of victims of those War Crimes from 1,400 to 1,200.
With respect, as a nerdy, obsessive, contrarian and off-the-scale aspergery train-nerd I sort of think you're essentially harmless and at the same time not really worth listening to on politics so I ignore what you say.
Here we go again using "Asperger's" as an offensive casual insult.
You clearly haven't ignored what @Sunil_Prasannan writes about politics, otherwise you wouldn't have responded to his post.
War crimes continue to be committed in Gaza, but the World remains largely silent. Well done Macron for calling for a ceasefire.
I remember reading post after post from you about War Crimes on 7th October, and thereafter.
Well done you for taking such a strong moral stance.
Israel seems to have very recently reduced the number of victims of those War Crimes from 1,400 to 1,200.
With respect, as a nerdy, obsessive, contrarian and off-the-scale aspergery train-nerd I sort of think you're essentially harmless and at the same time not really worth listening to on politics so I ignore what you say.
You don't mean "with respect" at all. Just not on.
War crimes continue to be committed in Gaza, but the World remains largely silent. Well done Macron for calling for a ceasefire.
I remember reading post after post from you about War Crimes on 7th October, and thereafter.
Well done you for taking such a strong moral stance.
Israel seems to have very recently reduced the number of victims of those War Crimes from 1,400 to 1,200.
With respect, as a nerdy, obsessive, contrarian and off-the-scale aspergery train-nerd I sort of think you're essentially harmless and at the same time not really worth listening to on politics so I ignore what you say.
Er, replying to me isn't exactly ignoring me, is it?
I always preferred Uncle Ben's rice myself...until that was also deemed racist.
Ah, a staple of mine when I lived and worked in Cambridge nearly 20 years ago.
Tilda is cheaper and just as good.
Any rice really. This may not be the canonical way to hook it, but you just boil it in plenty of water, drain and pour a bit of boiling water from kettle over it to remove the remaining starch. A piece of piss. Why anyone would spend extra money on branded "easy cook" or instant rice is beyond me. Of course, basmati is worth paying extra money for as it tastes nicer.
Vauxhall: Closed - Closed to avoid congestion during an event nearby. Call us on 0343 222 1234 if you need help planning your journey.
Maybe they opened it exclusively for Leon. He is a minor celebrity you know.
Some of the station was shut some was open - why on earth would I lie about such a trivial thing? I’ve no idea what trains or buses were running above or below ground
Honestly. PB
Roads still closed around Westminster by riot police
War crimes continue to be committed in Gaza, but the World remains largely silent. Well done Macron for calling for a ceasefire.
I remember reading post after post from you about War Crimes on 7th October, and thereafter.
Well done you for taking such a strong moral stance.
Israel seems to have very recently reduced the number of victims of those War Crimes from 1,400 to 1,200.
With respect, as a nerdy, obsessive, contrarian and off-the-scale aspergery train-nerd I sort of think you're essentially harmless and at the same time not really worth listening to on politics so I ignore what you say.
You don't mean "with respect" at all. Just not on.
I hadn't realised Casino was a nerdy, obsessive, contrarian and off-the-scale aspergery train-nerd, to be fair. Disarming frankness, it must be said.
I always preferred Uncle Ben's rice myself...until that was also deemed racist.
Ah, a staple of mine when I lived and worked in Cambridge nearly 20 years ago.
Tilda is cheaper and just as good.
Any rice really. This may not be the canonical way to hook it, but you just boil it in plenty of water, drain and pour a bit of boiling water from kettle over it to remove the remaining starch. A piece of piss. Why anyone would spend extra money on branded "easy cook" or instant rice is beyond me. Of course, basmati is worth paying extra money for as it tastes nicer.
1.5x water to rice, then you don't need to drain. Just use same container to scoop water and rice to keep it easy.
War crimes continue to be committed in Gaza, but the World remains largely silent. Well done Macron for calling for a ceasefire.
I remember reading post after post from you about War Crimes on 7th October, and thereafter.
Well done you for taking such a strong moral stance.
Israel seems to have very recently reduced the number of victims of those War Crimes from 1,400 to 1,200.
With respect, as a nerdy, obsessive, contrarian and off-the-scale aspergery train-nerd I sort of think you're essentially harmless and at the same time not really worth listening to on politics so I ignore what you say.
You don't mean "with respect" at all. Just not on.
Meaning "without respect'. Referencing Yes Minister
Today hasn't quite worked out as Suella would have hoped. To keep her leadership ambitions alive she needs to go nuclear: call a press conference this evening, issuing Rishi with a 'back me or sack me' ultimatum.
He's already backed her.
Because he has the talent in judging people that William Topaz Macgonagall displayed in judging verse.
Comments
One of them has just warned me “watch your back”. They are expecting more trouble
What strikes me is the amount of people coming back over the bridge - effectively retracing the steps of the march, and then dispersing.
More seem to be making their way back from the US Embassy - the location of the end of the march - towards Victoria station and Westminster.
Chants critical of PM Rishi Sunak are repeated over a megaphone and there is a smoky smell from some flares which have been set off.
I haven't seen any trouble from these crowds of people.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-67390343
There should be scope for a Levantine entrepôt like Singapore. Beirut could have been it, but civil war put paid to that. Tel Aviv almost is, but Israel’s geopolitical position makes it impossible. Alexandria has the history but the hinterland is too poor. Syria ruled itself out long ago. And Turkey already has its entrepôt at the other end of the Anatolian peninsula.
Jan Morris’s Hav, about a fictional city roughly where Antakya now is gives a taste of what that Levantine hub might have looked like.
And then there is "watermelon", for greens who are accused of being socialist on the inside.
- Mark Rowley receives some well-earned praise
- Suella Braverman is sacked
- Israel perceives a little extra pressure on the stop side.
In terms of violence the only ones doing that were the far right and knuckle draggers . The pro Palestinian March was peaceful although sadly a few did have some anti -Semitic flags .
That shouldn’t detract from the overwhelming majority who were there to promotes peace and a ceasefire.
Braverman should be fired for trying to incite violence and Sunak should grow a spine and stop acting like a spineless gimp .
inside.
The whole coconut thing is stupid, self-destructive for BAME communities and perpetuates the hyper racialising of
everything. A US fashion we should be wary of importing. Stick with criticising Rishi for being posh (or nouveau, depending on taste), that’s much more British.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom#Epithet
https://twitter.com/search?q=michael gove&src=typed_query
So they're not going to see as much bad behaviour and would be reluctant to highlight it even if they did, in case it cuts across that.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/11/biden-israel-michigan-support-00125320
FARMINGTON HILLS, Michigan — It’s well past 9 p.m. on a Wednesday in late October. Evening prayers have long concluded, but a few congregants lag behind to talk. Outside the Farmington Hills Community Mosque, rain batters the concrete. Inside, the mosque’s brightly lit conference room is heavy with grief and exhaustion.
Imran Shehada, a 47-year-old bespectacled physician, sits at a conference table, hands clasped tightly in front of him, recounting the last few days. The Saturday before, an airstrike killed his cousin, a dentist in Gaza, along with the cousin’s daughter and two adult sons. And on Monday, another four cousins were killed. Two of them were women in their 20s, one of whom was pregnant with her first child; two others were elementary-age children. And two hours before Shehada arrived at the mosque, his sister called from Gaza in distress. She told him that the house next door had been bombed and 10 people were dead — some of them relatives on their father’s side...
At least 800 people were killed within 72 hours this week as part of the ethnic cleansing of minorities conducted by the RSF and its allies in West Darfur.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/11/un-sounds-alarm-on-darfur-warns-world-not-to-repeat-history-00126708
Well done you for taking such a strong moral stance.
They can always allow immigration of those that will bring benefits but a population reproducing faster than resources do will lead to disaster.
Gaza's population was about 300k when occupied by Israel in 1967:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine
@Leon is quite right in his response to you and, despite his strong political views, I actually trust him to report the situation on the ground accurately.
Meanwhile, Tommy and his 200 or so EDL thugs have scrapped with the police, tried to find fights with their opponents, and generally behaved like fascist thugs who have no respect for Armistice day.
Still on sale....
I’d say the causation is the other way anyway. Rich and healthy societies have fewer children. Demographic transition. See Hans Rosling.
Now, I don't mind Leon calling me a twat - it's a badge of honour tbh.
For the record, I don't want to see any violence but the day is not over yet and there are no doubt extremists on both sides who would love to cause problems.
I certainly don't discount that there could be trouble from the pro-Palestinian side but so far the few 100 neo-Nazis seem to have caused most of the issues - notnecessarily the narrative Leon was seeking.
** The Sudanese Arabs being more Arabised than actual Arabs - the narcissism of small differences having a brutal effect in Sudan.
I went to a private school in Khartoum, run by missionaries, where the majority of students there were children of displaced families from the south, mostly Christians. A foreigner would probably have thought all of us looked the same, but to a Sudanese, there was a huge difference – I was an Arab and one or two shades lighter than my classmates, which gave me immense privilege.
Although I did not know why exactly I was “superior” to my darker non-Arab classmates, I knew for sure I was because everyone important I saw on television looked like me. Indeed, political and economic power was almost exclusively in the hands of members of the Arabised tribes.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2020/8/13/do-black-lives-matter-in-sudan
Suella has unhelpfully tried to insert herself into a sensitive situation and make it all about her, creating a straw man about desecration of the cenotaph and violence rather than supporting the police to do what they need to do (and which they appear to have done pretty well this time).
(*Aka pre-boiled, ultra-processed stodge - no offence @Stodge)
https://x.com/matthewherper/status/1723332870599590113?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
https://x.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1723400499234300332?s=46
Whatever the case the resulting increase in population was able to boost the economy because the agricultural and industrial revolutions allowed the extra people to be productively employed.
Without those technological breakthroughs any increase in population would have resulted in increased poverty, starvation and societal failure.
There was also the opportunity to migration to North America and Australasia for any surplus population.
With Gaza the situation would be much easier if the population increase of the last two generations had migrated to the rest of the Arab world.
peaceful, amiable, perhaps ill advised but well
meaning and only 5-10% are sinister menacing types - all in black, masked, punchy, tinged with some real hostility - anti semitism or whatever
But do the maths
That means you’ve got 180 twattish football hooligans and 15-30,000 sinister quasi-Islamists on the streets of London
Vauxhall: Closed - Closed to avoid congestion during an event nearby. Call us on 0343 222 1234 if you need help planning your journey.
Look at the detail on the firework!
The bigger question is those being so quick to dismiss what he says because it's inconvenient for them.
But only because she should never have been appointed.
And once appointed, should have been sacked by Wednesday afternoon at the latest.
Also worth noting that, due to those numbers, the police will move in on the former today and the latter later in days to come.
It's the only thing they can do given the numbers.
It's all rather pathetic really - particularly when they are shit points.
It's the same 8-12 usual suspects who do it, who aren't in the slightest bit representative, and it helps to call it out lest others get overly influenced by it.
Unless the Tories really do wish to spend a long, long time in opposition.
While rejoining the EU anytime soon looks a long shot, it’s quite clear that a majority of people now see Brexit, in the way the Tories have implemented it (which, remember, still wasn’t damaging enough for La Farage), has been a bad mistake. Putting the instigator of this national disaster at the head of their party and they might as well headline their first party conference thereafter with the slogan ‘sensible people, don’t vote for us!’.
A Gaza with a 300k population could be economically successful.
A Gaza with 2,500k population cannot be.
So would you prefer those extra 2,200k to live successfully elsewhere or destitute in Gaza ?
And yes population movements can lead to a more stable international settlement - see the Germans of eastern Europe or the Ionian Greeks as examples.
That's the reality, brutal perhaps but a reality that has to be faced.
I have to admit after the string of abject failures in the Met over the last few years they seem to have done a very good job today.
You clearly haven't ignored what @Sunil_Prasannan writes about politics, otherwise you wouldn't have responded to his post.
https://twitter.com/IncMonocle/status/1723401957056876883
Protestors move back to Victoria, singing John Lennon's Imagine
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-67390343 @ 18:49
Honestly. PB
Roads still closed around Westminster by riot police
It’s all going to be a bit ‘The Man in the white Suit’
Could AI do as well or better tho?
Because he has the talent in judging people that William Topaz Macgonagall displayed in judging verse.
Paul Golding
@GoldingBF
·
3h
Poland, a patriotic European nation.
No immigration.
No multiculturalism.
No diversity.
https://twitter.com/AshleaSimonBF