It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
No, but it's as close to objective truth as you can get that the clashing agendas of various powers and the searches for solutions to a difficult problem down the years since 1948 have left the Palestinian people wronged and stuffed.
The Palestinians are not passive spectators in all this. They have on repeated occasions made many stupid choices which has made their position very much worse than it might otherwise have been. Pretending that it has all been done to them and not also by them is ahistorical nonsense and treats them like children.
Sure. And eg the Israelis keep voting for Netanyahu. So ditto. But anyway I'm not making out this is a clear good v bad affair. I'll leave that to the antisemites and their opposite numbers in the 'Palestinians don't count' camp.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The lack of sympathy being displayed towards British Jews right now worries me a lot.
Agreed. It's not just the lack of sympathy. It's the callous cruelty - tearing down posters, defacing them, threatening schools etc.,.
I think some people enjoy being able to justify cruelty to a group they classify as "wrong" by claiming that they are just concerned with being kind to their favoured "in" group. In some cases, people only side with the "in" group precisely because it allows them to be horrible to Jews - while wrapped up in self-proclaimed virtue.
It bodes very ill for our society. We can do nothing about what happens in the Middle East. But we can do something about how we treat a small, vulnerable and now fearful minority here - instead of grandstanding about abroad. That's what Starmer, what all our politicians should be judged on.
It's why I so detest the notion of "punching up." The National Socialists claimed to be "punching up." It's treating a group like shit, and claiming to be virtuous as you do it.
Everyone knows you need to hate fascism and the Nazis today and are all to ready to project this onto others whilst seemingly being oblivious to when they exhibit far more serious signs of it themselves.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
I felt that, a few months ago, as I wandered through the ruins of Glastonbury Abbey, and I've felt it at Fountains, too, and the London Charterhouse. Especially, reading about the cruel fates of many of the monks who dared to defy a tyrant, knowing what awaited them.
It was Councillor Peter Golds, a Jewish Conservative, who once spoke to me of his sadness at reading of the disapperance of the "Land of the Bells" that was pre-Reformation England.
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If Cleverley or Bad-Enoch had actually done anything you might have a point. I imagine more people know of the vogue editor than the minister for business and trade. And yes, the things they have done have been to deliberately polarise a majority against them.
Thanks for proving my point that its a political decision.
Cleverly and Badenoch are obviously more influential than whoever these people are:
Tunde Olanrewaju - senior partner and managing partner, McKinsey & Company Joshua Siaw, MBE - partner, White & Case Syreeta Brown - group chief people and communications officer, Virgin Money UK
and clearly examples of how black people can rise to the highest levels of government.
I don't believe I could prove any of your views, not sure I'd ever want to either way.
Okay, if you want to believe that some lawyer at a firm I've just had to google is more influential than the Foreign Secretary then that's your choice.
Its a popularity contest, if you spend your time being a Conservative politician you've already lost. And yet the editor of vogue does have more influence on the lives of the majority than the two wastrels in government.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
No. Utterly wrong
The beauty of Anglicanism is that it was a continuation AND a rupture. It removed the grotesque or tawdry tat you see in Catholic Churches but kept the best of the spiritual beauty
That is why Anglican cathedrals are, weirdly, more moving than cathedrals elsewhere in much of Europe
Plus the Anglican choral musical tradition is peerless. Evensong in a November dusk at somewhere like Ely or King’s Cambridge is unbearably profound
No - I am not wrong. I have a view and an eye and an artistic sensibility which has been shaped by different currents to yours. The Reformation's rupture did not create some wonderful new spirituality. It channelled it elsewhere - into all the royal hoo ha, for instance, which helped the English disguise that what much of the Reformation was about was a simple seizure of property, looting and theft which allowed a lot of courtiers with an eye for the main chance to turn themselves into wealthy aristocrats who then thought this gave them the right to boss everyone else about and carry on with their looting.
Every so often the Catholic muscle memory of England shows itself - most notably after Diana's death - when all the flowers and tributes and claims that Dinah was somehow on the people's side interceding with higher powers resembled nothing so much as those tributes to the Virgin Mary you often see by the side of Italian roads. It struck me very obviously at the time and yet the English having lost their understanding of religion could not see it
Being English and Protestant does not automatically make you right you know.
I’m sorry, but God is an Englishman. Any fule kno that
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
Given what we have seen levelled at Jews in this country here by fellow Britons, that charge could - and should - just as easily be made against those people who seem to think that being pro-Palestinian entitles them to be pretty bloody horrible to British Jews and to talk about 1400 murdered people in Israel who, for the record, did not just include Jews but Arabs and others like the Filippino carers of old people who stayed as if they do not count as human beings because they are "colonialists" or "settlers" or whatever.
Why is it that so many people on here find it so hard to notice or admit or care about what British Jews here - our fellow citizens - are feeling right now?
Horrible and inexcusable. Don't take me making my point as meaning I think otherwise.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The lack of sympathy being displayed towards British Jews right now worries me a lot.
Agreed. It's not just the lack of sympathy. It's the callous cruelty - tearing down posters, defacing them, threatening schools etc.,.
I think some people enjoy being able to justify cruelty to a group they classify as "wrong" by claiming that they are just concerned with being kind to their favoured "in" group. In some cases, people only side with the "in" group precisely because it allows them to be horrible to Jews - while wrapped up in self-proclaimed virtue.
It bodes very ill for our society. We can do nothing about what happens in the Middle East. But we can do something about how we treat a small, vulnerable and now fearful minority here - instead of grandstanding about abroad. That's what Starmer, what all our politicians should be judged on.
It's why I so detest the notion of "punching up." The National Socialists claimed to be "punching up." It's treating a group like shit, and claiming to be virtuous as you do it.
Everyone knows you need to hate fascism and the Nazis today and are all to ready to project this onto others whilst seemingly being oblivious to when they exhibit far more serious signs of it themselves.
You know, I think there actually is a good analogy to fascism and Nazi Germany here.
Hamas are like the Nazis: they have the same desire to utterly destroy.
And Israel has behaved towards Palestine like the Allies did to Germany in the wake of WW1.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
No, but it's as close to objective truth as you can get that the clashing agendas of various powers and the searches for solutions to a difficult problem down the years since 1948 have left the Palestinian people wronged and stuffed.
The Palestinians are not passive spectators in all this. They have on repeated occasions made many stupid choices which has made their position very much worse than it might otherwise have been. Pretending that it has all been done to them and not also by them is ahistorical nonsense and treats them like children.
Sure. And eg the Israelis keep voting for Netanyahu. So ditto. But anyway I'm not making out this is a clear good v bad affair. I'll leave that to the antisemites and their opposite numbers in the 'Palestinians don't count' camp.
This is a good v bad affair.
That's not because "Palestinians don't count".
Its because Hamas being fascist anti-democrats who refuse elections, murder babies, rape women, execute gays and want to kill every Jew, is unmitigatedly evil.
While Israel as a democratic nation that has sought peace for decades, offered peace to the Palestinians, and has in recent years made peace agreements even with undemocratic nations like the UAE and who were in peace talks with the Saudis are on the side of good.
Democracy and human rights count. That's why Israel is good, and Hamas is not.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?
Because I assume no one is silly enough to entertain the thought that Hamas would respect one.
If Hamas won't respect a ceasefire then Israel surely have nothing to lose by calling a ceasefire knowing Hamas will break it anyway. An easy propaganda victory. But Israel doesn't want a ceasefire.
Israel won't enter ceasefire talks until all of the hostages are released by Hamas unconditionally. Why should they? Their citizens are being held by a hostile terrorist organisation, they must do everything they can to bring them back. It is within Hamas' power to start ceasefire talks by releasing the hostages, not Israel's.
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If Cleverley or Bad-Enoch had actually done anything you might have a point. I imagine more people know of the vogue editor than the minister for business and trade. And yes, the things they have done have been to deliberately polarise a majority against them.
Thanks for proving my point that its a political decision.
Cleverly and Badenoch are obviously more influential than whoever these people are:
Tunde Olanrewaju - senior partner and managing partner, McKinsey & Company Joshua Siaw, MBE - partner, White & Case Syreeta Brown - group chief people and communications officer, Virgin Money UK
and clearly examples of how black people can rise to the highest levels of government.
I don't believe I could prove any of your views, not sure I'd ever want to either way.
Okay, if you want to believe that some lawyer at a firm I've just had to google is more influential than the Foreign Secretary then that's your choice.
Its a popularity contest, if you spend your time being a Conservative politician you've already lost. And yet the editor of vogue does have more influence on the lives of the majority than the two wastrels in government.
An actual popularity contest might have the likes of Jude Bellingham and Courtney Lawes somewhere in the top ten.
But they are also deemed to be less influential than some lawyer at a firm I've never heard of before.
But we know enough, far, far more than enough. We know that the October 7 massacre was among the most sickening and depraved events in all the history of human cruelty. So it is incredible that in the three weeks since the murder of 1,400 Jews we seem — in Britain and around the world — to have lost all moral clarity.
A fog has descended. We have forgotten which way is up. We are reflexively treating Hamas and Israel as two belligerent parties in an ancient quarrel, where there are faults on both sides; and we are therefore ignoring, or minimising, what actually happened.
...
If you step back and look at the broad sweep of post-war history, you also have to wonder why this is the one territorial dispute that continues to excite such viciousness and such hatred.
Think of the colossal movements of people around the world after 1945, the tens of millions who were turned into refugees as the maps were re-drawn.
Why has this question proved so insoluble? Is it just Israeli intransigence? Or is it also the recurring virus of anti-Semitism that continues to be so prevalent, not just in the Middle East but around the world?
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
According to Hamas, sorry, the Palestine health organisation who the WHO and UN just quote word for word. I'd have thought after the hospital incident we'd have learned not to believe anything Hamas come out with.
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
Gibbon was an incredible propagandist for Roman “civilisation” v medieval “barbarism”, and he dominates the popular view of Rome long after academics have ceased bothering either to attack or defend him.
That said, vikings are massively popular too. In the popular mind, Saxons were pious and boring, whereas vikings all looked like Ragnar and Lagertha and life was one long round of feasting, sex, and splitting skulls.
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
They built things that lasted and we use the latin alphabet are two reasons.
O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
Musee D'Orsay for me, its about the only thing worth visiting in Paris.
I wouldn't say it is the only thing worth visiting but it is certainly the shining gem. I much prefer the Musee D'Orsay to the Louvre.
Ive been to Paris quite a lot and my son has just moved there. Last time I did the Sainte Chappelle ( overrated ) and Notre Dame. ND was really good as they had an exhibition on the restoration which was really well presented. The other thing I have been advised to see is the catacombs not sure if they will be as good as the hype.
I have yet to see the Sainte Chappelle (the lift has been broken every time we've tried - I mean, I am grateful and surprised there even is a lift but it would be nice for it to work). Having studied gothic architecture in an evening class, It really would like to see the example for myself.
When I went it was extremely busy, I wished I had looked at the guides to see if there was a slack time. If you can clear the tourists there's more to look at.
Go to the Musee Carnavalet.
Thanks, Ill do that, its a short walk from where my son lives.
You let him live in an EU City after contributing to our being black-balled!!
It's a fine gallery in a nice area. I'm sure you'll have been to the musee d'orsay but worth a visit every time you go. One of my favourites
He's getting married next year to a francaise. But his Irish Passport lets him stroll about.
He couldn't lend it to me could he? Irish passports are like gold dust. Lucky boy. I bet he was livid with you.
It's funny to think there was a time when English passports were just as valued. My ex went to live in Beausoleil and after overstaying her 90 days by several months can't come back because she fears they wont let her back again
I have a french guy lives across the street from me who has exactly the same problem.
On the other hand since you now have time on your hands could I suggest "On va tout peter"
It's a docufilm set in a factory in the arse end of France. I used to run it and it's the only film where I know all the cast - nutters to a man.
It won the Palme D'Or.
I can't understand how I missed it. I usually watch all the fancied films from Cannes and certainly the Palme d'Or winners. I'll chase it up as soon as I can find it. You're description doesn't sound engaging but films that make it into competition let alone win the Palme d'Or are rarely ordinary. So thanks.
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
They built things that lasted and we use the latin alphabet are two reasons.
Though it amuses me that four of the days of the week are named after the Norse gods, while only one is named after a Roman god.
Norse: Tyr's day (Tuesday) Woden's day (Wednesday) Thor's day (Thursday) Frig's day (Friday)
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
They built things that lasted and we use the latin alphabet are two reasons.
also the founder of Christianity in the sense of getting it going
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
No, but it's as close to objective truth as you can get that the clashing agendas of various powers and the searches for solutions to a difficult problem down the years since 1948 have left the Palestinian people wronged and stuffed.
The Palestinians are not passive spectators in all this. They have on repeated occasions made many stupid choices which has made their position very much worse than it might otherwise have been. Pretending that it has all been done to them and not also by them is ahistorical nonsense and treats them like children.
Sure. And eg the Israelis keep voting for Netanyahu. So ditto. But anyway I'm not making out this is a clear good v bad affair. I'll leave that to the antisemites and their opposite numbers in the 'Palestinians don't count' camp.
This is a good v bad affair.
That's not because "Palestinians don't count".
Its because Hamas being fascist anti-democrats who refuse elections, murder babies, rape women, execute gays and want to kill every Jew, is unmitigatedly evil.
While Israel as a democratic nation that has sought peace for decades, offered peace to the Palestinians, and has in recent years made peace agreements even with undemocratic nations like the UAE and who were in peace talks with the Saudis are on the side of good.
Democracy and human rights count. That's why Israel is good, and Hamas is not.
You will have noticed I've put you in the fridge on this one. It's for the best.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The lack of sympathy being displayed towards British Jews right now worries me a lot.
Agreed. It's not just the lack of sympathy. It's the callous cruelty - tearing down posters, defacing them, threatening schools etc.,.
I think some people enjoy being able to justify cruelty to a group they classify as "wrong" by claiming that they are just concerned with being kind to their favoured "in" group. In some cases, people only side with the "in" group precisely because it allows them to be horrible to Jews - while wrapped up in self-proclaimed virtue.
It bodes very ill for our society. We can do nothing about what happens in the Middle East. But we can do something about how we treat a small, vulnerable and now fearful minority here - instead of grandstanding about abroad. That's what Starmer, what all our politicians should be judged on.
The posters things might seem small, but is actually one of the most telling examples of behaviour. There's no reason to do it other than to be cruel, one could very easily condemn the Israeli actions without shitting on the plight of kidnapped and murdered people. So choosing to do it, to inflict distress rather than simply protest or demonstrate, speaks volumes.
And you just know the people doing it think they are incredibly virtuous.
But we know enough, far, far more than enough. We know that the October 7 massacre was among the most sickening and depraved events in all the history of human cruelty. So it is incredible that in the three weeks since the murder of 1,400 Jews we seem — in Britain and around the world — to have lost all moral clarity.
A fog has descended. We have forgotten which way is up. We are reflexively treating Hamas and Israel as two belligerent parties in an ancient quarrel, where there are faults on both sides; and we are therefore ignoring, or minimising, what actually happened.
...
If you step back and look at the broad sweep of post-war history, you also have to wonder why this is the one territorial dispute that continues to excite such viciousness and such hatred.
Think of the colossal movements of people around the world after 1945, the tens of millions who were turned into refugees as the maps were re-drawn.
Why has this question proved so insoluble? Is it just Israeli intransigence? Or is it also the recurring virus of anti-Semitism that continues to be so prevalent, not just in the Middle East but around the world?
Or it could be that Arafat didn't take the deal in early 2000s.
iirc Clinton said effectively he was mad and would bring terrible destruction on his Palestinian grandkids.
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
They built things that lasted and we use the latin alphabet are two reasons.
also the founder of Christianity in the sense of getting it going
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The lack of sympathy being displayed towards British Jews right now worries me a lot.
Agreed. It's not just the lack of sympathy. It's the callous cruelty - tearing down posters, defacing them, threatening schools etc.,.
I think some people enjoy being able to justify cruelty to a group they classify as "wrong" by claiming that they are just concerned with being kind to their favoured "in" group. In some cases, people only side with the "in" group precisely because it allows them to be horrible to Jews - while wrapped up in self-proclaimed virtue.
It bodes very ill for our society. We can do nothing about what happens in the Middle East. But we can do something about how we treat a small, vulnerable and now fearful minority here - instead of grandstanding about abroad. That's what Starmer, what all our politicians should be judged on.
It's why I so detest the notion of "punching up." The National Socialists claimed to be "punching up." It's treating a group like shit, and claiming to be virtuous as you do it.
Odious idea, probably connected with the occasionally mentioned idea racism is only about power dynamics and thus its impossible to be racist toward, say, the majority ethnic group, which is a lot of absolute twaddle.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
No, but it's as close to objective truth as you can get that the clashing agendas of various powers and the searches for solutions to a difficult problem down the years since 1948 have left the Palestinian people wronged and stuffed.
The Palestinians are not passive spectators in all this. They have on repeated occasions made many stupid choices which has made their position very much worse than it might otherwise have been. Pretending that it has all been done to them and not also by them is ahistorical nonsense and treats them like children.
Sure. And eg the Israelis keep voting for Netanyahu. So ditto. But anyway I'm not making out this is a clear good v bad affair. I'll leave that to the antisemites and their opposite numbers in the 'Palestinians don't count' camp.
This is a good v bad affair.
That's not because "Palestinians don't count".
Its because Hamas being fascist anti-democrats who refuse elections, murder babies, rape women, execute gays and want to kill every Jew, is unmitigatedly evil.
While Israel as a democratic nation that has sought peace for decades, offered peace to the Palestinians, and has in recent years made peace agreements even with undemocratic nations like the UAE and who were in peace talks with the Saudis are on the side of good.
Democracy and human rights count. That's why Israel is good, and Hamas is not.
You will have noticed I've put you in the fridge on this one. It's for the best.
I've noticed no such thing.
What I have noticed is you're willing to cast unsubstantiated aspersions, eg accusing others without any grounding at all, of having an attitude of "Palestinians don't count".
What I have also noticed is your willingness to "bothsides" this conflict, rather than accept it as a clash of good versus evil, democrats versus fascists, humanity versus monsters.
Your excuses to try and bothsides this are as lame and pathetic as those trying to bothsides American politics by suggesting Biden or Hillary are as bad as Trump. Only Hamas are far, far worse than even Trump.
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
They built things that lasted and we use the latin alphabet are two reasons.
Though it amuses me that four of the days of the week are named after the Norse gods, while only one is named after a Roman god.
Norse: Tyr's day (Tuesday) Woden's day (Wednesday) Thor's day (Thursday) Frig's day (Friday)
Roman: Saturn's day (Saturday)
Celestial: Moon's day (Monday) Sun's day (Sunday)
Although the names of the months are based on the Roman names.
Its bizarre how the mishmash of names evolved / were chosen.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
I find the lack of outrage so depressing. Even more so when the IDF told people to move south to safety and then proceeded to bomb them there . Gaza needs a 100 trucks a day in aid , in 20 days it’s not even reached that figure .
And do you blame Israel for the fact Egypt is blockading Gaza? 🤦♂️
Egypt isn’t the one refusing to let aid in . Gazans are also worried that if they leave they won’t ever return . Israel if it could would annex the whole strip .
While I agree with your second and third sentences, your first is wrong. Egypt is doing everything it can to stop aid going in:
You must remember the Egyptian government absolutely hates Hamas. Indeed, the current president took power in a coup against what amounts to their Egyptian branch.
In addition - the experience in the region of those countries that have taken in substantial refugee population of Palestinians, gives pause to any thinking of doing so now.
Jordan and Lebanon…
Add in Kuwait who kicked out 400,000 Palestinians because they supported Saddam Husein and roughed up the Kuwaitis.
Which in turn related to the joy joy conditions the said Palestinians endured in Kuwait.
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
Their ancient ruins are more striking and thus romantic, their cultural reputation leans more toward the classy togas and rhetoricians than their many conquests, there's a lot of writings from their times still with us so we have a firmer mental picture of it, and many of the big events have been told so many times they are ingrained on our memories, so it's a feedback loop - they had more attention, which gets more attention, which gets more attention, whereas viking tales are bigger now but less common overall.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
No, but it's as close to objective truth as you can get that the clashing agendas of various powers and the searches for solutions to a difficult problem down the years since 1948 have left the Palestinian people wronged and stuffed.
The Palestinians are not passive spectators in all this. They have on repeated occasions made many stupid choices which has made their position very much worse than it might otherwise have been. Pretending that it has all been done to them and not also by them is ahistorical nonsense and treats them like children.
Sure. And eg the Israelis keep voting for Netanyahu. So ditto. But anyway I'm not making out this is a clear good v bad affair. I'll leave that to the antisemites and their opposite numbers in the 'Palestinians don't count' camp.
This is a good v bad affair.
That's not because "Palestinians don't count".
Its because Hamas being fascist anti-democrats who refuse elections, murder babies, rape women, execute gays and want to kill every Jew, is unmitigatedly evil.
While Israel as a democratic nation that has sought peace for decades, offered peace to the Palestinians, and has in recent years made peace agreements even with undemocratic nations like the UAE and who were in peace talks with the Saudis are on the side of good.
Democracy and human rights count. That's why Israel is good, and Hamas is not.
You really are a simplistic clown. Have you ever been outside of Mostyn?
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
They built things that lasted and we use the latin alphabet are two reasons.
Though it amuses me that four of the days of the week are named after the Norse gods, while only one is named after a Roman god.
Norse: Tyr's day (Tuesday) Woden's day (Wednesday) Thor's day (Thursday) Frig's day (Friday)
Roman: Saturn's day (Saturday)
Celestial: Moon's day (Monday) Sun's day (Sunday)
Although the names of the months are based on the Roman names.
Its bizarre how the mishmash of names evolved / were chosen.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
No, but it's as close to objective truth as you can get that the clashing agendas of various powers and the searches for solutions to a difficult problem down the years since 1948 have left the Palestinian people wronged and stuffed.
The Palestinians are not passive spectators in all this. They have on repeated occasions made many stupid choices which has made their position very much worse than it might otherwise have been. Pretending that it has all been done to them and not also by them is ahistorical nonsense and treats them like children.
Sure. And eg the Israelis keep voting for Netanyahu. So ditto. But anyway I'm not making out this is a clear good v bad affair. I'll leave that to the antisemites and their opposite numbers in the 'Palestinians don't count' camp.
This is a good v bad affair.
That's not because "Palestinians don't count".
Its because Hamas being fascist anti-democrats who refuse elections, murder babies, rape women, execute gays and want to kill every Jew, is unmitigatedly evil.
While Israel as a democratic nation that has sought peace for decades, offered peace to the Palestinians, and has in recent years made peace agreements even with undemocratic nations like the UAE and who were in peace talks with the Saudis are on the side of good.
Democracy and human rights count. That's why Israel is good, and Hamas is not.
You really are a simplistic clown. Have you ever been outside of Mostyn?
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
Given what we have seen levelled at Jews in this country here by fellow Britons, that charge could - and should - just as easily be made against those people who seem to think that being pro-Palestinian entitles them to be pretty bloody horrible to British Jews and to talk about 1400 murdered people in Israel who, for the record, did not just include Jews but Arabs and others like the Filippino carers of old people who stayed as if they do not count as human beings because they are "colonialists" or "settlers" or whatever.
Why is it that so many people on here find it so hard to notice or admit or care about what British Jews here - our fellow citizens - are feeling right now?
Interesting you mention the Filipino carers.
There is a story I want to confirm, about someone who was told to leave but refused to leave her charges. Is that the one you are taking off? If so, do you have more info?
I’d say another reason for the popularity of Romans and vikings is the widespread belief that pagans didn’t really believe their own religions, which makes them rather like us.
Again, a popular belief that no qualified academic would entertain, and really, pretty insulting to both Romans and Danes.
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
They built things that lasted and we use the latin alphabet are two reasons.
Though it amuses me that four of the days of the week are named after the Norse gods, while only one is named after a Roman god.
Norse: Tyr's day (Tuesday) Woden's day (Wednesday) Thor's day (Thursday) Frig's day (Friday)
Roman: Saturn's day (Saturday)
Celestial: Moon's day (Monday) Sun's day (Sunday)
Although the names of the months are based on the Roman names.
Its bizarre how the mishmash of names evolved / were chosen.
Apparently all the main planets were named after Roman names for gods, apart from Uranus, which is named after a Greek name for a god (Caelus being the Roman equivalent). I guess someone messed up when they were settling for a theme.
I find the numbers of 2019 Lab voters and pro-Palestine voters finding Starmer very wrong on this to be surprisingly low. He is certainly in a better position than if he had taken any other line. Bith groups - and voters in gerneral - rank Sunak lower I notice. Might open a chance for third parties - even if they just keep their mouths shut.
Will it hurt Lab in a year's time? Possibly - but not by as much as some may hope.
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
It's not going to be long before the entire programming is fronted by ex-Conservative MPs and John Cleese. It'll be like a kind of retirement home for former Tories who can shout into the darkness safe in the knowledge no one will be listening any longer.
I’d say another reason for the popularity of Romans and vikings is the widespread belief that pagans didn’t really believe their own religions, which makes them rather like us.
Again, a popular belief that no qualified academic would entertain, and really, pretty insulting to both Romans and Danes.
I don't mind stories set in ancient times where the main character is not really very devout, there must have been people like that, but sometimes it does feel like a cheap way of having someone with near modern values in an older setting, when they are in a period where it was likely they were and not at least appearing so would be questionable.
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
It's not going to be long before the entire programming is fronted by ex-Conservative MPs and John Cleese. It'll be like a kind of retirement home for former Tories who can shout into the darkness safe in the knowledge no one will be listening any longer.
And Tom Harwood, Richard Tice and Farage it is now the TV station for the British Right not just Tories
"Humza Yousaf has responded to Elon Musk after the owner of X branded him a “blatant racist” in a social media post.
"The first minister responded by posting a Still Game reference to X after Musk hit out at him online."
Yousaf is a blatant racist, however. That video - and the way he spits the word “white” like it a disgusting and awful curse-word - is all the proof you need
How amusing that Elon has called him out
It’s a fairly standard thing in some communities. See the comedy about Obama claiming that he never noticed the contents the sermons he was sitting through every Sunday…
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
IDK, if he were alive today I could see Churchill hanging on for attention with a podcast where he invites on old chums and gets pissed whilst moaning about modern society.
To stick up for GB News - here is a very good interview with two British Jews on the situation at the moment in London. It would be nice if people could share other media organisations that have done something similar - BBC/ITV/SKY etc
To stick up for GB News - here is a very good interview with two British Jews on the situation at the moment in London. It would be nice if people could share other media organisations that have done something similar - BBC/ITV/SKY etc
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
Indeed and I imagine you'd support Starmer in holding to his line.
I gather the network of tunnels under Gaza would have impressed the North Vietnamese but it's the deliberate extortion of money which could have been used to improve the lot of the Gazan citizen (yet another crime you can lay at the door of Hamas) which is another appalling indictment.
Hamas know a reckoning is coming but I suspect they've planned for it and even welcome it. The gallant martyrs dying at the hands of the evil Israelis radicalises the next generation and Arab opinion elsewhere and that's going to be the real tragedy on top of all the other tragedies - none of this will stop the cycle of violence, indeed it ensures its perpetuation.
Hamas may well be suppressed at a terrible cost but "something else" will arise in time to take its place I fear. I hope I'm wrong and this time it will be the end but I'm not convinced.
I find the numbers of 2019 Lab voters and pro-Palestine voters finding Starmer very wrong on this to be surprisingly low. He is certainly in a better position than if he had taken any other line. Bith groups - and voters in gerneral - rank Sunak lower I notice. Might open a chance for third parties - even if they just keep their mouths shut.
Will it hurt Lab in a year's time? Possibly - but not by as much as some may hope.
For all the hype, Starmer's mithering and hand wringing is probably about right.
There is no good answer, because the necessary leadership doesn't exist on either side. The idea of destroying the leadership of Hamas probably fails the "reasonable chance of success" test in Just War Theory. And once you acknowledge that, what's left? Apart from to wait and hope, and pray if that is your inclination.
I’d say another reason for the popularity of Romans and vikings is the widespread belief that pagans didn’t really believe their own religions, which makes them rather like us.
Again, a popular belief that no qualified academic would entertain, and really, pretty insulting to both Romans and Danes.
I don't mind stories set in ancient times where the main character is not really very devout, there must have been people like that, but sometimes it does feel like a cheap way of having someone with near modern values in an older setting, when they are in a period where it was likely they were and not at least appearing so would be questionable.
One of the worst sins for a historian is presentism - the belief that people who lived in past societies shared our own outlook and beliefs.
Some behaviours are almost universal - almost everyone loves their own children for example; fart jokes are always popular.
But, especially in matters of sex and religion, the past is often a different country.
And, presentism is a sin for the historical novelist, too.
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If Cleverley or Bad-Enoch had actually done anything you might have a point. I imagine more people know of the vogue editor than the minister for business and trade. And yes, the things they have done have been to deliberately polarise a majority against them.
Thanks for proving my point that its a political decision.
Cleverly and Badenoch are obviously more influential than whoever these people are:
Tunde Olanrewaju - senior partner and managing partner, McKinsey & Company Joshua Siaw, MBE - partner, White & Case Syreeta Brown - group chief people and communications officer, Virgin Money UK
and clearly examples of how black people can rise to the highest levels of government.
I don't believe I could prove any of your views, not sure I'd ever want to either way.
Okay, if you want to believe that some lawyer at a firm I've just had to google is more influential than the Foreign Secretary then that's your choice.
Its a popularity contest, if you spend your time being a Conservative politician you've already lost. And yet the editor of vogue does have more influence on the lives of the majority than the two wastrels in government.
Does he? Google tells me it has a circulation of 220k? Outside of the 220k does anyone give a f###?
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
They built things that lasted and we use the latin alphabet are two reasons.
also the founder of Christianity in the sense of getting it going
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
They built things that lasted and we use the latin alphabet are two reasons.
also the founder of Christianity in the sense of getting it going
“The Romans bought Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. And have been selling him ever since, God rot them.”
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
It's not going to be long before the entire programming is fronted by ex-Conservative MPs .
There will soon be fierce competition for a place in that case, good job Boris quit early to get ahead of the crowd.
If they are determined to give them all jobs I suggest a workplace comedy starring all ex-Conservative MPs. One of those where all the characters are horrible people, like It's Always Sunny.
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
They built things that lasted and we use the latin alphabet are two reasons.
Though it amuses me that four of the days of the week are named after the Norse gods, while only one is named after a Roman god.
Norse: Tyr's day (Tuesday) Woden's day (Wednesday) Thor's day (Thursday) Frig's day (Friday)
Roman: Saturn's day (Saturday)
Celestial: Moon's day (Monday) Sun's day (Sunday)
Although the names of the months are based on the Roman names.
Its bizarre how the mishmash of names evolved / were chosen.
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
It will get him viral clips on social media. In 2023 it’s a good way to try and launch a come back. It’s convinced me he wants one. It’s not like he needs the money.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
IDK, if he were alive today I could see Churchill hanging on for attention with a podcast where he invites on old chums and gets pissed whilst moaning about modern society.
Bound to. Only question is who would be the Stewart to his Campbell?
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If Cleverley or Bad-Enoch had actually done anything you might have a point. I imagine more people know of the vogue editor than the minister for business and trade. And yes, the things they have done have been to deliberately polarise a majority against them.
Thanks for proving my point that its a political decision.
Cleverly and Badenoch are obviously more influential than whoever these people are:
Tunde Olanrewaju - senior partner and managing partner, McKinsey & Company Joshua Siaw, MBE - partner, White & Case Syreeta Brown - group chief people and communications officer, Virgin Money UK
and clearly examples of how black people can rise to the highest levels of government.
I don't believe I could prove any of your views, not sure I'd ever want to either way.
Okay, if you want to believe that some lawyer at a firm I've just had to google is more influential than the Foreign Secretary then that's your choice.
Its a popularity contest, if you spend your time being a Conservative politician you've already lost. And yet the editor of vogue does have more influence on the lives of the majority than the two wastrels in government.
Does he? Google tells me it has a circulation of 220k? Outside of the 220k does anyone give a f###?
I'm not about to denigrate Vogue, since I have never read it, but it seems like a bit of an indictment of the country if a magazine editor is the most influential black person in the country. People can mock the achievements of politicians but they are more well known and high profile than many others on the list. Profile isn't everything, a senior business person even if not well known would be influential, but I'm genuinely curious if any magazine is that influential thesedays.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
Indeed and I imagine you'd support Starmer in holding to his line.
I gather the network of tunnels under Gaza would have impressed the North Vietnamese but it's the deliberate extortion of money which could have been used to improve the lot of the Gazan citizen (yet another crime you can lay at the door of Hamas) which is another appalling indictment.
Hamas know a reckoning is coming but I suspect they've planned for it and even welcome it. The gallant martyrs dying at the hands of the evil Israelis radicalises the next generation and Arab opinion elsewhere and that's going to be the real tragedy on top of all the other tragedies - none of this will stop the cycle of violence, indeed it ensures its perpetuation.
Hamas may well be suppressed at a terrible cost but "something else" will arise in time to take its place I fear. I hope I'm wrong and this time it will be the end but I'm not convinced.
Yes absolutely support Starmer holding the line. It's the first time he's not getting splinters from sitting on the fence so he had to expect the opposition, it will be a test of character to not change direction, if he fails then we're in for no improvement in government when Labour win next year.
Agree that Hamas have siphoned funds to build their tunnel network. It's going to be a very awful and very bloody conflict. There are going to be huge losses on both sides over the next few months and the only way out right now is for Hamas to send the hostages home. While those hostages are at risk Israel has a casus belli against Hamas and none of its allies will break ranks or dare talk Israel down because the Israelis will ask what we would do in their place if it was British or American or French citizens that were kidnapped by a hostile terrorist organisation that is determined to wipe us out.
If the hostages come home I could see allies start talking Israel down from total war and turning a blind eye to Israel building a massive fucking wall and tunnel detection along the whole Gazan border and halting travel between Israel and Gaza completely.
A hopefully non-controversial question for the evening.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
Might be worth keeping them quiet/entertained with this :
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
No, there is an austere beauty in Puritanism, which is why there was a massive popular demand for it. The focus though is not on architecture and idolatry, but rather the message and the collective of believers.
Anglicanism is a British compromise to suppress the revolutionary doctrines and reimpose an aristocratic control of believers not very different to Catholicism.
So yes of course there is less ornament, statuary, smells and spells in Protestant Churches. All that is seen as idolatry that is a misrepresentation of God.
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
How do we know Churchill wouldn't have been on GBNews had it existed during his era? I believe he wrote articles for newspapers (I could be very wrong there - I stand to be corrected)?
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If Cleverley or Bad-Enoch had actually done anything you might have a point. I imagine more people know of the vogue editor than the minister for business and trade. And yes, the things they have done have been to deliberately polarise a majority against them.
Thanks for proving my point that its a political decision.
Cleverly and Badenoch are obviously more influential than whoever these people are:
Tunde Olanrewaju - senior partner and managing partner, McKinsey & Company Joshua Siaw, MBE - partner, White & Case Syreeta Brown - group chief people and communications officer, Virgin Money UK
and clearly examples of how black people can rise to the highest levels of government.
I don't believe I could prove any of your views, not sure I'd ever want to either way.
Okay, if you want to believe that some lawyer at a firm I've just had to google is more influential than the Foreign Secretary then that's your choice.
Its a popularity contest, if you spend your time being a Conservative politician you've already lost. And yet the editor of vogue does have more influence on the lives of the majority than the two wastrels in government.
Does he? Google tells me it has a circulation of 220k? Outside of the 220k does anyone give a f###?
I'm not about to denigrate Vogue, since I have never read it, but it seems like a bit of an indictment of the country if a magazine editor is the most influential black person in the country. People can mock the achievements of politicians but they are more well known and high profile than many others on the list. Profile isn't everything, a senior business person even if not well known would be influential, but I'm genuinely curious if any magazine is that influential thesedays.
Exactly that. I am sure those that read it like it, and it may be brilliant at what it does, but can anyone give an example of it influencing the rest of us? Genuine question. It may do.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
I felt that, a few months ago, as I wandered through the ruins of Glastonbury Abbey, and I've felt it at Fountains, too, and the London Charterhouse. Especially, reading about the cruel fates of many of the monks who dared to defy a tyrant, knowing what awaited them.
It was Councillor Peter Golds, a Jewish Conservative, who once spoke to me of his sadness at reading of the disapperance of the "Land of the Bells" that was pre-Reformation England.
Rievaulx Abbey had that effect on me. It felt unutterably sad and moving to see the remains of what was once there, sacked by greedy barbarians.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
I read the statement before and nowhere does it call on Hamas to release the hostages. In fact it puts pressure on the "international comminuty" to get them released, not Hamas. If he wants to call out Qatar then he should do that not the "international community".
Sadiq Khan wants Israel to stand down while a hostile terrorist organisation is holding guns to the heads of Israeli citizens. The hostages have to be released first, before any ceasefire talks begin. He is a hypocrite.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
No. Utterly wrong
The beauty of Anglicanism is that it was a continuation AND a rupture. It removed the grotesque or tawdry tat you see in Catholic Churches but kept the best of the spiritual beauty
That is why Anglican cathedrals are, weirdly, more moving than cathedrals elsewhere in much of Europe
Plus the Anglican choral musical tradition is peerless. Evensong in a November dusk at somewhere like Ely or King’s Cambridge is unbearably profound
No - I am not wrong. I have a view and an eye and an artistic sensibility which has been shaped by different currents to yours. The Reformation's rupture did not create some wonderful new spirituality. It channelled it elsewhere - into all the royal hoo ha, for instance, which helped the English disguise that what much of the Reformation was about was a simple seizure of property, looting and theft which allowed a lot of courtiers with an eye for the main chance to turn themselves into wealthy aristocrats who then thought this gave them the right to boss everyone else about and carry on with their looting.
Every so often the Catholic muscle memory of England shows itself - most notably after Diana's death - when all the flowers and tributes and claims that Dinah was somehow on the people's side interceding with higher powers resembled nothing so much as those tributes to the Virgin Mary you often see by the side of Italian roads. It struck me very obviously at the time and yet the English having lost their understanding of religion could not see it
Being English and Protestant does not automatically make you right you know.
I’m sorry, but God is an Englishman. Any fule kno that
It's your willingness to engage in debate and argument that makes me love you so. 😀
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
How do we know Churchill wouldn't have been on GBNews had it existed during his era? I believe he wrote articles for newspapers (I could be very wrong there - I stand to be corrected)?
Yup. He was thought of as an irrelevant relic and a failed minister with very outdated views. He retreated to making speeches and writing newspaper articles. But he had a loyal fan base on his back benches.
(For the avoidance of doubt I’m not in the Boris fan club and actually saying they are alike. It’s just that, unlike 90% on this site, I understand why Boris was popular, do think he’d score better at the coming election than Rishi, and wouldn’t count him out).
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
Indeed and I imagine you'd support Starmer in holding to his line.
I gather the network of tunnels under Gaza would have impressed the North Vietnamese but it's the deliberate extortion of money which could have been used to improve the lot of the Gazan citizen (yet another crime you can lay at the door of Hamas) which is another appalling indictment.
Hamas know a reckoning is coming but I suspect they've planned for it and even welcome it. The gallant martyrs dying at the hands of the evil Israelis radicalises the next generation and Arab opinion elsewhere and that's going to be the real tragedy on top of all the other tragedies - none of this will stop the cycle of violence, indeed it ensures its perpetuation.
Hamas may well be suppressed at a terrible cost but "something else" will arise in time to take its place I fear. I hope I'm wrong and this time it will be the end but I'm not convinced.
Yes absolutely support Starmer holding the line. It's the first time he's not getting splinters from sitting on the fence so he had to expect the opposition, it will be a test of character to not change direction, if he fails then we're in for no improvement in government when Labour win next year.
Agree that Hamas have siphoned funds to build their tunnel network. It's going to be a very awful and very bloody conflict. There are going to be huge losses on both sides over the next few months and the only way out right now is for Hamas to send the hostages home. While those hostages are at risk Israel has a casus belli against Hamas and none of its allies will break ranks or dare talk Israel down because the Israelis will ask what we would do in their place if it was British or American or French citizens that were kidnapped by a hostile terrorist organisation that is determined to wipe us out.
If the hostages come home I could see allies start talking Israel down from total war and turning a blind eye to Israel building a massive fucking wall and tunnel detection along the whole Gazan border and halting travel between Israel and Gaza completely.
Israel claims that fuel sent into Gaza is used for the ventilation contraptions for the tunnels. Perhaps it's a silly question, but couldn't Israel just blow up the ventilation machinery, and hey presto, Hamas emerge blinking into the open? They must know where it is.
I’d say another reason for the popularity of Romans and vikings is the widespread belief that pagans didn’t really believe their own religions, which makes them rather like us.
Again, a popular belief that no qualified academic would entertain, and really, pretty insulting to both Romans and Danes.
I don't mind stories set in ancient times where the main character is not really very devout, there must have been people like that, but sometimes it does feel like a cheap way of having someone with near modern values in an older setting, when they are in a period where it was likely they were and not at least appearing so would be questionable.
One of the worst sins for a historian is presentism - the belief that people who lived in past societies shared our own outlook and beliefs.
Some behaviours are almost universal - almost everyone loves their own children for example; fart jokes are always popular.
But, especially in matters of sex and religion, the past is often a different country.
And, presentism is a sin for the historical novelist, too.
Verisimilitude. It doesn't need to be true, just seem like it could be. We might not put our finger on something seeming wrong, but we can often tell.
Ancient Romans did not speak like upper class British people, but because it is not everyday California dialogue it sounds more real than if a film has them all talk like surfer dudes. 9th century viking raiders probably held less than salubrious opinions on treatment of monasteries, that sort of thing.
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If Cleverley or Bad-Enoch had actually done anything you might have a point. I imagine more people know of the vogue editor than the minister for business and trade. And yes, the things they have done have been to deliberately polarise a majority against them.
Thanks for proving my point that its a political decision.
Cleverly and Badenoch are obviously more influential than whoever these people are:
Tunde Olanrewaju - senior partner and managing partner, McKinsey & Company Joshua Siaw, MBE - partner, White & Case Syreeta Brown - group chief people and communications officer, Virgin Money UK
and clearly examples of how black people can rise to the highest levels of government.
I don't believe I could prove any of your views, not sure I'd ever want to either way.
Okay, if you want to believe that some lawyer at a firm I've just had to google is more influential than the Foreign Secretary then that's your choice.
Its a popularity contest, if you spend your time being a Conservative politician you've already lost. And yet the editor of vogue does have more influence on the lives of the majority than the two wastrels in government.
Does he? Google tells me it has a circulation of 220k? Outside of the 220k does anyone give a f###?
I'm not about to denigrate Vogue, since I have never read it, but it seems like a bit of an indictment of the country if a magazine editor is the most influential black person in the country. People can mock the achievements of politicians but they are more well known and high profile than many others on the list. Profile isn't everything, a senior business person even if not well known would be influential, but I'm genuinely curious if any magazine is that influential thesedays.
I was once the cause of one of their magazines being pulped to mush at the border. Not my finest hour.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
I felt that, a few months ago, as I wandered through the ruins of Glastonbury Abbey, and I've felt it at Fountains, too, and the London Charterhouse. Especially, reading about the cruel fates of many of the monks who dared to defy a tyrant, knowing what awaited them.
It was Councillor Peter Golds, a Jewish Conservative, who once spoke to me of his sadness at reading of the disapperance of the "Land of the Bells" that was pre-Reformation England.
Rievaulx Abbey had that effect on me. It felt unutterably sad and moving to see the remains of what was once there, sacked by greedy barbarians.
Though the flip side was a parallel system of government that refused to answer to the civil courts.
And given what we now know, the Black Book of Cromwell, that Mary I was so keen to stamp out, was probably quite factual.
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
How do we know Churchill wouldn't have been on GBNews had it existed during his era? I believe he wrote articles for newspapers (I could be very wrong there - I stand to be corrected)?
Well, Churchill like Boris was always short of money. It is almost inevitable he would have found outlets that paid him well.
I guess the question is whether GB News would have been able to afford Churchill. Because there are lots of outlets, in the US and the UK, with lots more budget.
The problem with GBeebies is that like Talk Tory TV it is an embarrassment to the concept of news. At least Live TV knew it was funny. GBeebies hires Fuck Off Lee Anderson to conduct impartial interviews where he talks to other Tories about why Labour are shit.
And people watch it, nodding, saying that the MSM is biased...
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
No, there is an austere beauty in Puritanism, which is why there was a massive popular demand for it. The focus though is not on architecture and idolatry, but rather the message and the collective of believers.
Anglicanism is a British compromise to suppress the revolutionary doctrines and reimpose an aristocratic control of believers not very different to Catholicism.
So yes of course there is less ornament, statuary, smells and spells in Protestant Churches. All that is seen as idolatry that is a misrepresentation of God.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
Indeed and I imagine you'd support Starmer in holding to his line.
I gather the network of tunnels under Gaza would have impressed the North Vietnamese but it's the deliberate extortion of money which could have been used to improve the lot of the Gazan citizen (yet another crime you can lay at the door of Hamas) which is another appalling indictment.
Hamas know a reckoning is coming but I suspect they've planned for it and even welcome it. The gallant martyrs dying at the hands of the evil Israelis radicalises the next generation and Arab opinion elsewhere and that's going to be the real tragedy on top of all the other tragedies - none of this will stop the cycle of violence, indeed it ensures its perpetuation.
Hamas may well be suppressed at a terrible cost but "something else" will arise in time to take its place I fear. I hope I'm wrong and this time it will be the end but I'm not convinced.
Yes absolutely support Starmer holding the line. It's the first time he's not getting splinters from sitting on the fence so he had to expect the opposition, it will be a test of character to not change direction, if he fails then we're in for no improvement in government when Labour win next year.
Agree that Hamas have siphoned funds to build their tunnel network. It's going to be a very awful and very bloody conflict. There are going to be huge losses on both sides over the next few months and the only way out right now is for Hamas to send the hostages home. While those hostages are at risk Israel has a casus belli against Hamas and none of its allies will break ranks or dare talk Israel down because the Israelis will ask what we would do in their place if it was British or American or French citizens that were kidnapped by a hostile terrorist organisation that is determined to wipe us out.
If the hostages come home I could see allies start talking Israel down from total war and turning a blind eye to Israel building a massive fucking wall and tunnel detection along the whole Gazan border and halting travel between Israel and Gaza completely.
Israel claims that fuel sent into Gaza is used for the ventilation contraptions for the tunnels. Perhaps it's a silly question, but couldn't Israel just blow up the ventilation machinery, and hey presto, Hamas emerge blinking into the open? They must know where it is.
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
How do we know Churchill wouldn't have been on GBNews had it existed during his era? I believe he wrote articles for newspapers (I could be very wrong there - I stand to be corrected)?
Well, Churchill like Boris was always short of money. It is almost inevitable he would have found outlets that paid him well.
I guess the question is whether GB News would have been able to afford Churchill. Because there are lots of outlets, in the US and the UK, with lots more budget.
Another reason why I think Boris wants back in to U.K. politics. Fox would have him, and gives him trousers full of cash.
I will be talking about the immense opportunities for Global Britain – as well as the challenges – and why our best days are yet to come…I will be giving this remarkable new TV channel my unvarnished views on everything from Russia, China, the war in Ukraine, and how we meet all of those challenges, to the huge opportunities that lie ahead for us
I predict of year of sniping at the government for not being as good as when he ran it (certainly it is less popular), and then a good niche railing against Starmer thereafter. I should think there's an audience for both those things, so I would think reasonable success.
I've been surprised he's not done more on the foreign policy stuff since leaving office - it wouldn't be seen as a direct attack on the government since he mostly aligns with it, but might want more, outside EU stuff he got some praise for his positions, and it would have kept him seeming like a statesman.
The problem with GBeebies is that like Talk Tory TV it is an embarrassment to the concept of news. At least Live TV knew it was funny. GBeebies hires Fuck Off Lee Anderson to conduct impartial interviews where he talks to other Tories about why Labour are shit.
And people watch it, nodding, saying that the MSM is biased...
I did ask if another major broadcaster had done something similar in giving British Jews a chance to air their fears in public and also the sense of abandonment. Not seen anything yet.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
Indeed and I imagine you'd support Starmer in holding to his line.
I gather the network of tunnels under Gaza would have impressed the North Vietnamese but it's the deliberate extortion of money which could have been used to improve the lot of the Gazan citizen (yet another crime you can lay at the door of Hamas) which is another appalling indictment.
Hamas know a reckoning is coming but I suspect they've planned for it and even welcome it. The gallant martyrs dying at the hands of the evil Israelis radicalises the next generation and Arab opinion elsewhere and that's going to be the real tragedy on top of all the other tragedies - none of this will stop the cycle of violence, indeed it ensures its perpetuation.
Hamas may well be suppressed at a terrible cost but "something else" will arise in time to take its place I fear. I hope I'm wrong and this time it will be the end but I'm not convinced.
Yes absolutely support Starmer holding the line. It's the first time he's not getting splinters from sitting on the fence so he had to expect the opposition, it will be a test of character to not change direction, if he fails then we're in for no improvement in government when Labour win next year.
Agree that Hamas have siphoned funds to build their tunnel network. It's going to be a very awful and very bloody conflict. There are going to be huge losses on both sides over the next few months and the only way out right now is for Hamas to send the hostages home. While those hostages are at risk Israel has a casus belli against Hamas and none of its allies will break ranks or dare talk Israel down because the Israelis will ask what we would do in their place if it was British or American or French citizens that were kidnapped by a hostile terrorist organisation that is determined to wipe us out.
If the hostages come home I could see allies start talking Israel down from total war and turning a blind eye to Israel building a massive fucking wall and tunnel detection along the whole Gazan border and halting travel between Israel and Gaza completely.
Israel claims that fuel sent into Gaza is used for the ventilation contraptions for the tunnels. Perhaps it's a silly question, but couldn't Israel just blow up the ventilation machinery, and hey presto, Hamas emerge blinking into the open? They must know where it is.
I suspect that machinery is probably rather small and pretty well distributed around.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
Indeed and I imagine you'd support Starmer in holding to his line.
I gather the network of tunnels under Gaza would have impressed the North Vietnamese but it's the deliberate extortion of money which could have been used to improve the lot of the Gazan citizen (yet another crime you can lay at the door of Hamas) which is another appalling indictment.
Hamas know a reckoning is coming but I suspect they've planned for it and even welcome it. The gallant martyrs dying at the hands of the evil Israelis radicalises the next generation and Arab opinion elsewhere and that's going to be the real tragedy on top of all the other tragedies - none of this will stop the cycle of violence, indeed it ensures its perpetuation.
Hamas may well be suppressed at a terrible cost but "something else" will arise in time to take its place I fear. I hope I'm wrong and this time it will be the end but I'm not convinced.
Yes absolutely support Starmer holding the line. It's the first time he's not getting splinters from sitting on the fence so he had to expect the opposition, it will be a test of character to not change direction, if he fails then we're in for no improvement in government when Labour win next year.
Agree that Hamas have siphoned funds to build their tunnel network. It's going to be a very awful and very bloody conflict. There are going to be huge losses on both sides over the next few months and the only way out right now is for Hamas to send the hostages home. While those hostages are at risk Israel has a casus belli against Hamas and none of its allies will break ranks or dare talk Israel down because the Israelis will ask what we would do in their place if it was British or American or French citizens that were kidnapped by a hostile terrorist organisation that is determined to wipe us out.
If the hostages come home I could see allies start talking Israel down from total war and turning a blind eye to Israel building a massive fucking wall and tunnel detection along the whole Gazan border and halting travel between Israel and Gaza completely.
Israel claims that fuel sent into Gaza is used for the ventilation contraptions for the tunnels. Perhaps it's a silly question, but couldn't Israel just blow up the ventilation machinery, and hey presto, Hamas emerge blinking into the open? They must know where it is.
Mosque. School. Most likely a hospital.
Guaranteed, but since they aparatus couldn't be moved, Israel would need to notify of their findings, give appropriate time for the inhabitants to evacuate, and go to it.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
I felt that, a few months ago, as I wandered through the ruins of Glastonbury Abbey, and I've felt it at Fountains, too, and the London Charterhouse. Especially, reading about the cruel fates of many of the monks who dared to defy a tyrant, knowing what awaited them.
It was Councillor Peter Golds, a Jewish Conservative, who once spoke to me of his sadness at reading of the disapperance of the "Land of the Bells" that was pre-Reformation England.
Rievaulx Abbey had that effect on me. It felt unutterably sad and moving to see the remains of what was once there, sacked by greedy barbarians.
Barbarians?!
The monasteries were sinks of corruption, stagnation and avarice, and sucked the blood out of rural England. Henry VIII dissolved them for purely selfish reasons, but what he did almost certainly benefited England as a whole. The Catholic Church in the 16th century was the equivalent of the Woke Blob today. A toad squatting fatly and squarely on the nation. There was a Reformation for a damn good reason
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
Given what we have seen levelled at Jews in this country here by fellow Britons, that charge could - and should - just as easily be made against those people who seem to think that being pro-Palestinian entitles them to be pretty bloody horrible to British Jews and to talk about 1400 murdered people in Israel who, for the record, did not just include Jews but Arabs and others like the Filippino carers of old people who stayed as if they do not count as human beings because they are "colonialists" or "settlers" or whatever.
Why is it that so many people on here find it so hard to notice or admit or care about what British Jews here - our fellow citizens - are feeling right now?
Interesting you mention the Filipino carers.
There is a story I want to confirm, about someone who was told to leave but refused to leave her charges. Is that the one you are taking off? If so, do you have more info?
I would have to look for it. Her name was given. She refused to leave and was murdered along with the elderly woman in her care.
I’d say another reason for the popularity of Romans and vikings is the widespread belief that pagans didn’t really believe their own religions, which makes them rather like us.
Again, a popular belief that no qualified academic would entertain, and really, pretty insulting to both Romans and Danes.
I don't mind stories set in ancient times where the main character is not really very devout, there must have been people like that, but sometimes it does feel like a cheap way of having someone with near modern values in an older setting, when they are in a period where it was likely they were and not at least appearing so would be questionable.
One of the worst sins for a historian is presentism - the belief that people who lived in past societies shared our own outlook and beliefs.
Some behaviours are almost universal - almost everyone loves their own children for example; fart jokes are always popular.
But, especially in matters of sex and religion, the past is often a different country.
And, presentism is a sin for the historical novelist, too.
Verisimilitude. It doesn't need to be true, just seem like it could be. We might not put our finger on something seeming wrong, but we can often tell.
Ancient Romans did not speak like upper class British people, but because it is not everyday California dialogue it sounds more real than if a film has them all talk like surfer dudes. 9th century viking raiders probably held less than salubrious opinions on treatment of monasteries, that sort of thing.
The other one is avoiding the ugly truth by talk about complexity.
One that struck me was the description of how two cultures “merged” after a conquest. According to DNA, after the conquest there was lots of “inter-marriage” with only the female side of the original group.
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
How do we know Churchill wouldn't have been on GBNews had it existed during his era? I believe he wrote articles for newspapers (I could be very wrong there - I stand to be corrected)?
Well, Churchill like Boris was always short of money. It is almost inevitable he would have found outlets that paid him well.
I guess the question is whether GB News would have been able to afford Churchill. Because there are lots of outlets, in the US and the UK, with lots more budget.
Another reason why I think Boris wants back in to U.K. politics. Fox would have him, and gives him trousers full of cash.
The sickening and hypocritical Hamas sycophants like Sadiq Khan calling for Israel to enter a ceasefire while saying absolutely nothing about Israeli hostages being held by Hamas should be blasted by the government, Rishi has a huge platform but he seems scared to use it. The hostages should be front page news and all those fools marching for a ceasefire should be demanding that Hamas release the hostages. That is the only path to a short term ceasefire. While Hamas holds a gun to the heads of Israeli citizens there will not be any chance of a ceasefire.
Indeed and I imagine you'd support Starmer in holding to his line.
I gather the network of tunnels under Gaza would have impressed the North Vietnamese but it's the deliberate extortion of money which could have been used to improve the lot of the Gazan citizen (yet another crime you can lay at the door of Hamas) which is another appalling indictment.
Hamas know a reckoning is coming but I suspect they've planned for it and even welcome it. The gallant martyrs dying at the hands of the evil Israelis radicalises the next generation and Arab opinion elsewhere and that's going to be the real tragedy on top of all the other tragedies - none of this will stop the cycle of violence, indeed it ensures its perpetuation.
Hamas may well be suppressed at a terrible cost but "something else" will arise in time to take its place I fear. I hope I'm wrong and this time it will be the end but I'm not convinced.
Yes absolutely support Starmer holding the line. It's the first time he's not getting splinters from sitting on the fence so he had to expect the opposition, it will be a test of character to not change direction, if he fails then we're in for no improvement in government when Labour win next year.
Agree that Hamas have siphoned funds to build their tunnel network. It's going to be a very awful and very bloody conflict. There are going to be huge losses on both sides over the next few months and the only way out right now is for Hamas to send the hostages home. While those hostages are at risk Israel has a casus belli against Hamas and none of its allies will break ranks or dare talk Israel down because the Israelis will ask what we would do in their place if it was British or American or French citizens that were kidnapped by a hostile terrorist organisation that is determined to wipe us out.
If the hostages come home I could see allies start talking Israel down from total war and turning a blind eye to Israel building a massive fucking wall and tunnel detection along the whole Gazan border and halting travel between Israel and Gaza completely.
Israel claims that fuel sent into Gaza is used for the ventilation contraptions for the tunnels. Perhaps it's a silly question, but couldn't Israel just blow up the ventilation machinery, and hey presto, Hamas emerge blinking into the open? They must know where it is.
It's not as simple as that, these contraptions are almost always kept either in or next to civilian infrastructure. Schools, hospitals etc... Israel could undoubtedly destroy it all but the civilian casualties would be extremely high so they I don't think they would. One of the reasons that a ground invasion is underway is to destroy this stuff without also destroying the hospital or school next door.
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
How do we know Churchill wouldn't have been on GBNews had it existed during his era? I believe he wrote articles for newspapers (I could be very wrong there - I stand to be corrected)?
Well, Churchill like Boris was always short of money. It is almost inevitable he would have found outlets that paid him well.
I guess the question is whether GB News would have been able to afford Churchill. Because there are lots of outlets, in the US and the UK, with lots more budget.
Another reason why I think Boris wants back in to U.K. politics. Fox would have him, and gives him trousers full of cash.
Hopefully he'll keep his trousers on!
Based on the last 40 years, it does seem unlikely.
More news on Mike Johnson: 'One month ago, Rep. Mike Johnson, R-La., voted with 93 Republicans to cut off Ukraine aid. Now, as speaker, Johnson said he's asked White House staff to “bifurcate” aid to Israel and Ukraine. But he emphasized that the U.S. must stop Russia’s advances.
“We can’t allow Vladimir Putin to prevail in Ukraine because I don’t believe it would stop there,” Johnson said in an interview on Fox News the day after he was sworn in. “And it would probably encourage and empower China to perhaps make a move on Taiwan. We have these concerns. We’re not going to abandon them.”'
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
I felt that, a few months ago, as I wandered through the ruins of Glastonbury Abbey, and I've felt it at Fountains, too, and the London Charterhouse. Especially, reading about the cruel fates of many of the monks who dared to defy a tyrant, knowing what awaited them.
It was Councillor Peter Golds, a Jewish Conservative, who once spoke to me of his sadness at reading of the disapperance of the "Land of the Bells" that was pre-Reformation England.
Rievaulx Abbey had that effect on me. It felt unutterably sad and moving to see the remains of what was once there, sacked by greedy barbarians.
Barbarians?!
The monasteries were sinks of corruption, stagnation and avarice, and sucked the blood out of rural England. Henry VIII dissolved them for purely selfish reasons, but what he did almost certainly benefited England as a whole. The Catholic Church in the 16th century was the equivalent of the Woke Blob today. A toad squatting fatly and squarely on the nation. There was a Reformation for a damn good reason
We were and are well rid
But...but...the nice buildings!
In all honesty I love a good historical building myself and so any loss is regrettable in one sense, but greedy old git that Henry was it's hard to escape the idea the medieval church was a greedy, hypocritical, power hungry group of political power players. You probably had the good folks at the bottom doing the good work, but the organisation? So many abbeys and monasteries and who paid for it all?
Kings nearly always squabbled with the church about power and money. Henry just won his confrontation more strongly than most.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
No, there is an austere beauty in Puritanism, which is why there was a massive popular demand for it. The focus though is not on architecture and idolatry, but rather the message and the collective of believers.
Anglicanism is a British compromise to suppress the revolutionary doctrines and reimpose an aristocratic control of believers not very different to Catholicism.
So yes of course there is less ornament, statuary, smells and spells in Protestant Churches. All that is seen as idolatry that is a misrepresentation of God.
And the weird thing is, as @TimS implies below, that very English compromise between Catholicism and Puritanism means that ancient English cathedrals and churches have managed to maintain the best of both traditions - avoiding the overt garishness and luridity of Catholicism (all those saints’ foreskins and bleeding Christs) while also sidestepping the total blank austerity of the puritanical tradition, where beauty itself seems a sin. And all history is expunged
It may have been sheer luck, of course. Or the happenstance of modern aesthetic sensibilities meeting ancient coincidence. But the fact is, if today you walk into a great English medieval cathedral, you get a spiritual rush - the instant sense of the mysterious and the numinous - that is hard to find anywhere else in the world
Ayesha Hazarika @ayeshahazarika · 2h He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
How do we know Churchill wouldn't have been on GBNews had it existed during his era? I believe he wrote articles for newspapers (I could be very wrong there - I stand to be corrected)?
Well, Churchill like Boris was always short of money. It is almost inevitable he would have found outlets that paid him well.
I guess the question is whether GB News would have been able to afford Churchill. Because there are lots of outlets, in the US and the UK, with lots more budget.
Churchill made a small fortune in his dotage from the ghost-written History of the English Speaking Peoples which, according to Attlee, should have been titled Things in history that interested me.
Comments
It was Councillor Peter Golds, a Jewish Conservative, who once spoke to me of his sadness at reading of the disapperance of the "Land of the Bells" that was pre-Reformation England.
My son is obsessed with the Romans. Teaching-himself-Latin levels of obsessed. Creating-frescoes levels of obsessed. Recreating-Pompeii-in-Minecraft levels of obsessed.
The son of an acquaintance is also obsessed with the Romans. Why do the Romans loom so heavily over our history and psyche; perhaps more so than (say) the Vikings or Normans?
Hamas are like the Nazis: they have the same desire to utterly destroy.
And Israel has behaved towards Palestine like the Allies did to Germany in the wake of WW1.
That's not because "Palestinians don't count".
Its because Hamas being fascist anti-democrats who refuse elections, murder babies, rape women, execute gays and want to kill every Jew, is unmitigatedly evil.
While Israel as a democratic nation that has sought peace for decades, offered peace to the Palestinians, and has in recent years made peace agreements even with undemocratic nations like the UAE and who were in peace talks with the Saudis are on the side of good.
Democracy and human rights count. That's why Israel is good, and Hamas is not.
But they are also deemed to be less influential than some lawyer at a firm I've never heard of before.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12680473/BORIS-JOHNSON-stop-equating-hamas-israel.html
But we know enough, far, far more than enough. We know that the October 7 massacre was among the most sickening and depraved events in all the history of human cruelty. So it is incredible that in the three weeks since the murder of 1,400 Jews we seem — in Britain and around the world — to have lost all moral clarity.
A fog has descended. We have forgotten which way is up. We are reflexively treating Hamas and Israel as two belligerent parties in an ancient quarrel, where there are faults on both sides; and we are therefore ignoring, or minimising, what actually happened.
...
If you step back and look at the broad sweep of post-war history, you also have to wonder why this is the one territorial dispute that continues to excite such viciousness and such hatred.
Think of the colossal movements of people around the world after 1945, the tens of millions who were turned into refugees as the maps were re-drawn.
Why has this question proved so insoluble? Is it just Israeli intransigence? Or is it also the recurring virus of anti-Semitism that continues to be so prevalent, not just in the Middle East but around the world?
That said, vikings are massively popular too. In the popular mind, Saxons were pious and boring, whereas vikings all looked like Ragnar and Lagertha and life was one long round of feasting, sex, and splitting skulls.
Norse:
Tyr's day (Tuesday)
Woden's day (Wednesday)
Thor's day (Thursday)
Frig's day (Friday)
Roman:
Saturn's day (Saturday)
Celestial:
Moon's day (Monday)
Sun's day (Sunday)
That's one dating app to avoid.
And you just know the people doing it think they are incredibly virtuous.
iirc Clinton said effectively he was mad and would bring terrible destruction on his Palestinian grandkids.
And so here we are...
My favourite cathedral - Ripon. A beautiful cathedral, some decent places to eat and a racecourse - what more could anyone need?
I know Hereford, Worcester and Salisbury can match it but I've always won money at Ripon, don't know why.
What I have noticed is you're willing to cast unsubstantiated aspersions, eg accusing others without any grounding at all, of having an attitude of "Palestinians don't count".
What I have also noticed is your willingness to "bothsides" this conflict, rather than accept it as a clash of good versus evil, democrats versus fascists, humanity versus monsters.
Your excuses to try and bothsides this are as lame and pathetic as those trying to bothsides American politics by suggesting Biden or Hillary are as bad as Trump. Only Hamas are far, far worse than even Trump.
Ayesha Hazarika
@ayeshahazarika
·
2h
He once dreamed of being a modern day Churchill. Now he’s on GB News… life comes at you fast.
"Eight Indian ex-naval officers sentenced to death in Qatar on Israel spying charges"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/eight-indian-ex-naval-officers-sentenced-to-death-in-qatar-on-israel-spying-charges/ar-AA1iWRkj
Its bizarre how the mishmash of names evolved / were chosen.
I AM GOING TO MY APARTMENT TO WATCH FOUNDATION
There is a story I want to confirm, about someone who was told to leave but refused to leave her charges. Is that the one you are taking off? If so, do you have more info?
Again, a popular belief that no qualified academic would entertain, and really, pretty insulting to both Romans and Danes.
Will it hurt Lab in a year's time? Possibly - but not by as much as some may hope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXW147YoR2Q
I gather the network of tunnels under Gaza would have impressed the North Vietnamese but it's the deliberate extortion of money which could have been used to improve the lot of the Gazan citizen (yet another crime you can lay at the door of Hamas) which is another appalling indictment.
Hamas know a reckoning is coming but I suspect they've planned for it and even welcome it. The gallant martyrs dying at the hands of the evil Israelis radicalises the next generation and Arab opinion elsewhere and that's going to be the real tragedy on top of all the other tragedies - none of this will stop the cycle of violence, indeed it ensures its perpetuation.
Hamas may well be suppressed at a terrible cost but "something else" will arise in time to take its place I fear. I hope I'm wrong and this time it will be the end but I'm not convinced.
There is no good answer, because the necessary leadership doesn't exist on either side. The idea of destroying the leadership of Hamas probably fails the "reasonable chance of success" test in Just War Theory. And once you acknowledge that, what's left? Apart from to wait and hope, and pray if that is your inclination.
Some behaviours are almost universal - almost everyone loves their own children for example; fart jokes are always popular.
But, especially in matters of sex and religion, the past is often a different country.
And, presentism is a sin for the historical novelist, too.
Can’t remember where I saw that….
If they are determined to give them all jobs I suggest a workplace comedy starring all ex-Conservative MPs. One of those where all the characters are horrible people, like It's Always Sunny.
https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/1717816255661695461
and the text at
https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/1717816891266461932
Agree that Hamas have siphoned funds to build their tunnel network. It's going to be a very awful and very bloody conflict. There are going to be huge losses on both sides over the next few months and the only way out right now is for Hamas to send the hostages home. While those hostages are at risk Israel has a casus belli against Hamas and none of its allies will break ranks or dare talk Israel down because the Israelis will ask what we would do in their place if it was British or American or French citizens that were kidnapped by a hostile terrorist organisation that is determined to wipe us out.
If the hostages come home I could see allies start talking Israel down from total war and turning a blind eye to Israel building a massive fucking wall and tunnel detection along the whole Gazan border and halting travel between Israel and Gaza completely.
https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-60-the-celtic-holocaust/
Anglicanism is a British compromise to suppress the revolutionary doctrines and reimpose an aristocratic control of believers not very different to Catholicism.
So yes of course there is less ornament, statuary, smells and spells in Protestant Churches. All that is seen as idolatry that is a misrepresentation of God.
Sadiq Khan wants Israel to stand down while a hostile terrorist organisation is holding guns to the heads of Israeli citizens. The hostages have to be released first, before any ceasefire talks begin. He is a hypocrite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IknUP_lQvtk
(For the avoidance of doubt I’m not in the Boris fan club and actually saying they are alike. It’s just that, unlike 90% on this site, I understand why Boris was popular, do think he’d score better at the coming election than Rishi, and wouldn’t count him out).
Ancient Romans did not speak like upper class British people, but because it is not everyday California dialogue it sounds more real than if a film has them all talk like surfer dudes. 9th century viking raiders probably held less than salubrious opinions on treatment of monasteries, that sort of thing.
And given what we now know, the Black Book of Cromwell, that Mary I was so keen to stamp out, was probably quite factual.
I guess the question is whether GB News would have been able to afford Churchill. Because there are lots of outlets, in the US and the UK, with lots more budget.
And people watch it, nodding, saying that the MSM is biased...
Also the Pilgrimage of Grace waves hello.
I predict of year of sniping at the government for not being as good as when he ran it (certainly it is less popular), and then a good niche railing against Starmer thereafter. I should think there's an audience for both those things, so I would think reasonable success.
I've been surprised he's not done more on the foreign policy stuff since leaving office - it wouldn't be seen as a direct attack on the government since he mostly aligns with it, but might want more, outside EU stuff he got some praise for his positions, and it would have kept him seeming like a statesman.
The monasteries were sinks of corruption, stagnation and avarice, and sucked the blood out of rural England. Henry VIII dissolved them for purely selfish reasons, but what he did almost certainly benefited England as a whole. The Catholic Church in the 16th century was the equivalent of the Woke Blob today. A toad squatting fatly and squarely on the nation. There was a Reformation for a damn good reason
We were and are well rid
One that struck me was the description of how two cultures “merged” after a conquest. According to DNA, after the conquest there was lots of “inter-marriage” with only the female side of the original group.
Yeah. “Inter-marriage”….
“We can’t allow Vladimir Putin to prevail in Ukraine because I don’t believe it would stop there,” Johnson said in an interview on Fox News the day after he was sworn in. “And it would probably encourage and empower China to perhaps make a move on Taiwan. We have these concerns. We’re not going to abandon them.”'
source: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/new-hope-ukraine-aid-pass-congress-israel-funding-rcna122408
Several possible compromises are mentioned in the article.
The Loser's friend, "Czar" Putin, won't be happy about this announcement.
In all honesty I love a good historical building myself and so any loss is regrettable in one sense, but greedy old git that Henry was it's hard to escape the idea the medieval church was a greedy, hypocritical, power hungry group of political power players. You probably had the good folks at the bottom doing the good work, but the organisation? So many abbeys and monasteries and who paid for it all?
Kings nearly always squabbled with the church about power and money. Henry just won his confrontation more strongly than most.
It may have been sheer luck, of course. Or the happenstance of modern aesthetic sensibilities meeting ancient coincidence. But the fact is, if today you walk into a great English medieval cathedral, you get a spiritual rush - the instant sense of the mysterious and the numinous - that is hard to find anywhere else in the world