British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
My faves are the obvious ones
Ely Wells Lincoln Durham Salisbury King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?) Guildford (lol) Truro (too modern) And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.
Yes if held at gunpoint I’d have to go for either Lincoln or Durham
And in the end it might be Lincoln
This should be done to every British schoolchild aged about 16. They should be held at gunpoint and forced to choose the best English cathedral. And if they say something stupid like “I hate cathedrals!” Or “I’ve no idea” or “er, Paris” then they are thrown into the Thames at Gallions Reach
The view of Durham Cathedral from the railway station (or indeed a passing train) is something else.
BTW - St Magnus Cathedral in Kirkwall was, I seem to remember reading, built by the people responsible for Durham.
And, indeed, it's just like a mini-Durham.
Finest ecclesiastical building in Scotland. In fact, drop the "ecclesiastical".
Kirkwall is wonderful. And for me it came as a total surprise. And all of it in that peculiar but poetic orange pink stone - and a glorious hybrid of English Scottish Celtic and Norse
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
I'm a bit perplexed by people saying that there's no point in a ceasefire because Hamas would just ignore it. The point of a ceasefire is presumably that both sides stop firing. If one side continues to fire, then ipso facto it's not a ceasefire, surely? So a ceasefire is only possible if both sides agree to stop firing and then stick to that agreement. Otherwise, no ceasefire exists.
The BBC wittering on about Boris joining GB News on the 6pm bulletin is really weird. Is that news worthy? Really? Just ignore GB News chaps unless or until Boris says or does something newsworthy. If anything they were almost advertising it.
The media loves talking about the media, more at 10.
Weren't presenters in Israel talking about Holly Willoughbooby leaving a TV show while war was waging around them?
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
Well that's Mr Blair for you. On the other hand I dont see your big demos for Uighirs, Christians in Pakistan, whites in Zimbabwe etc. I suppose it might be different if they were countries run by jews.
It was Bush and the neocons with Blair puppying along. All opposed by the Left. Compared to that sort of thing I think the selective demo'ing of various people is rather a 2nd order issue.
Maybe we should just sort our own shit out first. Theres enough of it.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
My faves are the obvious ones
Ely Wells Lincoln Durham Salisbury King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?) Guildford (lol) Truro (too modern) And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Was in Durham a couple of weeks ago:
Beautiful photos. You captured it. That imposing monumental quality. Don’t know anywhere else like it
And within all that monumental solidity, in the screens in the Choir there is such delicate perpendicular tracery that you feel you could almost snap it in two between your fingers.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
Except that this is precisely the argument used by people who disapprove of the death penalty but approve of military action
When you say to them We kill people all the time with bombs and drones and the like, in wars, or even just pre emptive action, how is that morally different to hanging someone after a trial (and in the latter at least you are probably hanging the guilty)? - then they reply (and I imagine you would reply - unless you favour capital punishment) - it’s just different. Killing someone in cold blood who does not threaten you is closer to murder
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The lack of sympathy being displayed towards British Jews right now worries me a lot.
Agreed. It's not just the lack of sympathy. It's the callous cruelty - tearing down posters, defacing them, threatening schools etc.,.
I think some people enjoy being able to justify cruelty to a group they classify as "wrong" by claiming that they are just concerned with being kind to their favoured "in" group. In some cases, people only side with the "in" group precisely because it allows them to be horrible to Jews - while wrapped up in self-proclaimed virtue.
It bodes very ill for our society. We can do nothing about what happens in the Middle East. But we can do something about how we treat a small, vulnerable and now fearful minority here - instead of grandstanding about abroad. That's what Starmer, what all our politicians should be judged on.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
No, but it's as close to objective truth as you can get that the clashing agendas of various powers and the searches for solutions to a difficult problem down the years since 1948 have left the Palestinian people wronged and stuffed.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
My faves are the obvious ones
Ely Wells Lincoln Durham Salisbury King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?) Guildford (lol) Truro (too modern) And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Was in Durham a couple of weeks ago:
Beautiful photos. You captured it. That imposing monumental quality. Don’t know anywhere else like it
And within all that monumental solidity, in the screens in the Choir there is such delicate perpendicular tracery that you feel you could almost snap it in two between your fingers.
Durham was brilliantly used in the movie Elizabeth with Cate Blanchett (the first one). The director harnessed its sense of grandiose yet menacing power - and its titanic shadows - so the young queen always seems endangered. Great location work
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
My faves are the obvious ones
Ely Wells Lincoln Durham Salisbury King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?) Guildford (lol) Truro (too modern) And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.
Yes if held at gunpoint I’d have to go for either Lincoln or Durham
And in the end it might be Lincoln
This should be done to every British schoolchild aged about 16. They should be held at gunpoint and forced to choose the best English cathedral. And if they say something stupid like “I hate cathedrals!” Or “I’ve no idea” or “er, Paris” then they are thrown into the Thames at Gallions Reach
We need to hear it for Chichester, small but perfectly formed and packed with wonders from Anglo Saxon sculpture to Chagall.
And Carlisle, tiny and ignored and unvisited by the hordes, mostly destroyed by the Scots but for a a heart aching Romanesque fragment, and the choir and chancel now make up the whole thing. And, being where it is, it sustains a decent choral tradition on the most limited of resources.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Is it any more imminent than it’s been for 3 weeks?
Serious question. Is there some news?
Non stop bombardment and all comms down in the strip. IDF guy just said there’ll be an overnight incursion..
There have already been incursions and raids. This may go on for weeks without a full scale invasion - indeed a proper invasion may not happen at all (ins’allah)
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Then you're wrong.
So if Ukraine accidentally kills people in the crossfire while retaliating to Russia's invasion, then that's Ukraine's fault since they pulled the trigger rather than Russia's fault for invading?
Hamas are the monsters who started this, and are using civilians as human shields. They are the ones responsible for all Gazan casualties.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
My faves are the obvious ones
Ely Wells Lincoln Durham Salisbury King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?) Guildford (lol) Truro (too modern) And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.
Yes if held at gunpoint I’d have to go for either Lincoln or Durham
And in the end it might be Lincoln
This should be done to every British schoolchild aged about 16. They should be held at gunpoint and forced to choose the best English cathedral. And if they say something stupid like “I hate cathedrals!” Or “I’ve no idea” or “er, Paris” then they are thrown into the Thames at Gallions Reach
We need to hear it for Chichester, small but perfectly formed and packed with wonders
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
My faves are the obvious ones
Ely Wells Lincoln Durham Salisbury King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?) Guildford (lol) Truro (too modern) And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.
Yes if held at gunpoint I’d have to go for either Lincoln or Durham
And in the end it might be Lincoln
This should be done to every British schoolchild aged about 16. They should be held at gunpoint and forced to choose the best English cathedral. And if they say something stupid like “I hate cathedrals!” Or “I’ve no idea” or “er, Paris” then they are thrown into the Thames at Gallions Reach
The view of Durham Cathedral from the railway station (or indeed a passing train) is something else.
BTW - St Magnus Cathedral in Kirkwall was, I seem to remember reading, built by the people responsible for Durham.
And, indeed, it's just like a mini-Durham.
Finest ecclesiastical building in Scotland. In fact, drop the "ecclesiastical".
Kirkwall is wonderful. And for me it came as a total surprise. And all of it in that peculiar but poetic orange pink stone - and a glorious hybrid of English Scottish Celtic and Norse
Oban, population about 12, has two cathedrals. The Catholic one is cool and is viewed well from the sea; the Episcopal one is bonkers and is held up with string and what looks like giant nutcrackers.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
Except that this is precisely the argument used by people who disapprove of the death penalty but approve of military action
When you say to them We kill people all the time with bombs and drones and the like, in wars, or even just pre emptive action, how is that morally different to hanging someone after a trial (and in the latter at least you are probably hanging the guilty)? - then they reply (and I imagine you would reply - unless you favour capital punishment) - it’s just different. Killing someone in cold blood who does not threaten you is closer to murder
So there’s the difference
Quite right. Cold blooded killings, and heat of the moment when there's no alternative, are two completely different things.
I oppose the death penalty. I am OK with the Police as a last resort killing an armed suspect who is engaged in a rampage, in order for the Police to protect others when he gets taken down, like with the terrorist attacks in London a few years ago. If they're arrested though, then no killing them afterwards.
Cold blooded murder and fog of war are not the same thing.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Are you in favour of the death penalty?
I am in favour of justice. If someone killed my child, I would go to their house and kill him (assuming I had the means and wasn't prevented from doing so). But no matter how much my grief, I wouldn't go round and blow up their street killing the murderer and numerous innocents at the same time. That would make me as bad as him.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
All this UN hand waving is simple nonsense. The whole idea that there are human rights, or rules of war makes no sense. What is true is that most nations will rule out the real horrors even in the depths of a life and death struggle.
The basic thought of the Israelis, given the horrible aggression against them, has to be to eliminate the enemy - and unfortunately that's the Gaza strip.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Are you in favour of the death penalty?
I am in favour of justice. If someone killed my child, I would go to their house and kill him (assuming I had the means and wasn't prevented from doing so). But no matter how much my grief, I wouldn't go round and blow up their street killing the murderer and numerous innocents at the same time. That would make me as bad as him.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Of course it does. It extends to as many as it takes to proportionality succeed in their military objective, which is destroying Hamas. How many German civilians do you think died while we were fighting WWII?
The civilian casualties would be greatly lowered if Egypt or other nations in the area were willing to offer safe refuge to civilians to avoid the conflict. Its disgusting that nobody is.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
The world shouldn't be doing nothing, the world, especially Arab nations that pretend to care about Palestinians, should be offering refuge to civilians to avoid the fighting.
Is it any more imminent than it’s been for 3 weeks?
Serious question. Is there some news?
Non stop bombardment and all comms down in the strip. IDF guy just said there’ll be an overnight incursion..
There have already been incursions and raids. This may go on for weeks without a full scale invasion - indeed a proper invasion may not happen at all (ins’allah)
I think that the diagrams of the tunnels that the Israelis have shown indicate what the incursions will be about.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Are you in favour of the death penalty?
I am in favour of justice. If someone killed my child, I would go to their house and kill him (assuming I had the means and wasn't prevented from doing so). But no matter how much my grief, I wouldn't go round and blow up their street killing the murderer and numerous innocents at the same time. That would make me as bad as him.
Are you in favour of the death penalty?
No, but that's seems entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Justice means punishing the guilty, whether or not by capital punishment. But it also means not punishing the innocent.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
You should try keeping tabs on famine - North Korea and Yemen are both on the brink of major man made famines
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Are you in favour of the death penalty?
I am in favour of justice. If someone killed my child, I would go to their house and kill him (assuming I had the means and wasn't prevented from doing so). But no matter how much my grief, I wouldn't go round and blow up their street killing the murderer and numerous innocents at the same time. That would make me as bad as him.
Are you in favour of the death penalty?
No, but that's seems entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Justice means punishing the guilty, whether or not by capital punishment. But it also means not punishing the innocent.
Israel isn't punishing the innocent.
Why is Egypt blockading Gaza and refusing to allow civilians to seek refuge, or the Red Crescent to bring aid into Gaza?
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
I find the lack of outrage so depressing. Even more so when the IDF told people to move south to safety and then proceeded to bomb them there . Gaza needs a 100 trucks a day in aid , in 20 days it’s not even reached that figure .
Are there any great Catholic cathedrals in the UK? Westminster is too garish for me
Indeed, are there any great Catholic churches in the UK? Or did the Anglicans steal them all?
I rather thought that Durham, and Kirkwall, which I'd have mentioned if you didn't say "English" at the start, and probably put you onto anyway in the first place, and Wells, and so on ... were sort of designed and built by chaps who would call themselves RCs.
If you are thinking of cathedrals built after the re-establishment of the RC hierarchy in GB, then it's modern - C19, C20. Might be worth considering Liverpool and Bristol (Clifton).
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
You should try keeping tabs on famine - North Korea and Yemen are both on the brink of major man made famines
I dont see any outrage
That would probably be different if our government were enthusiastically supporting the respective regimes in their cruelty.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
I find the lack of outrage so depressing. Even more so when the IDF told people to move south to safety and then proceeded to bomb them there . Gaza needs a 100 trucks a day in aid , in 20 days it’s not even reached that figure .
And do you blame Israel for the fact Egypt is blockading Gaza? 🤦♂️
Are there any great Catholic cathedrals in the UK? Westminster is too garish for me
Indeed, are there any great Catholic churches in the UK? Or did the Anglicans steal them all?
I rather thought that Durham, and Kirkwall, which I'd have mentioned if you didn't say "English" at the start, and probably put you onto anyway in the first place, and Wells, and so on ... were sort of designed and built by chaps who would call themselves RCs.
If you are thinking of cathedrals built after the re-establishment of the RC hierarchy in GB, then it's modern - C19, C20. Might be worth considering Liverpool and Bristol (Clifton).
"Bush and the neocons" Just a gentle reminder that, in the US, "neocons" was (and probably is still in some places) a subtle way of showing anti-Semitism. Typically, a person would say "neocons" and then follow that with two or three apparently Jewish names. (That may be one of the reasons William Buckley accused Pat Buchanan of anti-Semitism.)
For the record: I don't think the person who just used the term meant that, which is why I didn't name them.
(Odd historical fact: When the term "neoconservative" first became common, it was used to describe a group of intellectuals who thought many anti-poverty programs under LBJ had failed, and were looking for better ways to help the poor. Their principal magazine was The Public Interest, which never published articles on foreign policy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Public_Interest
I subscribed for a number of years, and still have about 20 issues.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
You should try keeping tabs on famine - North Korea and Yemen are both on the brink of major man made famines
I dont see any outrage
So that’s okay then . Let’s just throw another famine into the mix ! I’m well aware of the situation in those countries .
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
They should be allowed to leave and go to another country.
If they don't that's what happens in a war.
Irrespective of the military situation the Palestinians should be encouraged to leave Gaza as it is clearly impossible for over two million people to be economically supported by a territory smaller than the county of Rutland.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Are you in favour of the death penalty?
I am in favour of justice. If someone killed my child, I would go to their house and kill him (assuming I had the means and wasn't prevented from doing so). But no matter how much my grief, I wouldn't go round and blow up their street killing the murderer and numerous innocents at the same time. That would make me as bad as him.
Are you in favour of the death penalty?
No, but that's seems entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Justice means punishing the guilty, whether or not by capital punishment. But it also means not punishing the innocent.
No, it’s not. It is THE distinction
You draw a distinction between killing someone close at hand, in cold blood, who is no threat to you (even after a trial establishing their murderous guilt!) - and killing people at a distance as a byproduct of war, who may be innocent, but that is unfortunately part of war
That is what Israel is doing. So you agree with the Israeli action and disapprove of what Hamas did (without even a trial!). Or you are just utterly incoherent
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
You should try keeping tabs on famine - North Korea and Yemen are both on the brink of major man made famines
I dont see any outrage
So that’s okay then . Let’s just throw another famine into the mix ! I’m well aware of the situation in those countries .
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Are you in favour of the death penalty?
I am in favour of justice. If someone killed my child, I would go to their house and kill him (assuming I had the means and wasn't prevented from doing so). But no matter how much my grief, I wouldn't go round and blow up their street killing the murderer and numerous innocents at the same time. That would make me as bad as him.
And that's fair enough. But what if that person, after killing your child, was willing to kill your other children. You. And all your family? What if that person's entire reason for being was to wipe your kind off the face of the Earth?
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
Leaving aside the question of the unprovoked attacks on the Tutsis by Hutus in Rwanda having no resemblance to what's happening in the Middle East, can I ask why you are so exercised by the bombing of Palestinian civilians and yet so complacent about the murder of Israeli and indeed non-Israeli Jews in the name of a mass genocide?
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
I find the lack of outrage so depressing. Even more so when the IDF told people to move south to safety and then proceeded to bomb them there . Gaza needs a 100 trucks a day in aid , in 20 days it’s not even reached that figure .
And do you blame Israel for the fact Egypt is blockading Gaza? 🤦♂️
Egypt isn’t the one refusing to let aid in . Gazans are also worried that if they leave they won’t ever return . Israel if it could would annex the whole strip .
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
No, but it's as close to objective truth as you can get that the clashing agendas of various powers and the searches for solutions to a difficult problem down the years since 1948 have left the Palestinian people wronged and stuffed.
The Palestinians are not passive spectators in all this. They have on repeated occasions made many stupid choices which has made their position very much worse than it might otherwise have been. Pretending that it has all been done to them and not also by them is ahistorical nonsense and treats them like children.
Are there any great Catholic cathedrals in the UK? Westminster is too garish for me
Indeed, are there any great Catholic churches in the UK? Or did the Anglicans steal them all?
Brentwood is quite interesting neoclassical. However yes most of our oldest cathedrals are now Anglican, if you want to see historic Roman Catholic cathedrals France or Spain or Italy are better bets
The BBC wittering on about Boris joining GB News on the 6pm bulletin is really weird. Is that news worthy? Really? Just ignore GB News chaps unless or until Boris says or does something newsworthy. If anything they were almost advertising it.
The media loves talking about the media, more at 10.
Weren't presenters in Israel talking about Holly Willoughbooby leaving a TV show while war was waging around them?
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
I find the lack of outrage so depressing. Even more so when the IDF told people to move south to safety and then proceeded to bomb them there . Gaza needs a 100 trucks a day in aid , in 20 days it’s not even reached that figure .
And do you blame Israel for the fact Egypt is blockading Gaza? 🤦♂️
Egypt isn’t the one refusing to let aid in . Gazans are also worried that if they leave they won’t ever return . Israel if it could would annex the whole strip .
While I agree with your second and third sentences, your first is wrong. Egypt is doing everything it can to stop aid going in:
You must remember the Egyptian government absolutely hates Hamas. Indeed, the current president took power in a coup against what amounts to their Egyptian branch.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
No. Utterly wrong
The beauty of Anglicanism is that it was a continuation AND a rupture. It removed the grotesque or tawdry tat you see in Catholic Churches but kept the best of the spiritual beauty
That is why Anglican cathedrals are, weirdly, more moving than cathedrals elsewhere in much of Europe
Plus the Anglican choral musical tradition is peerless. Evensong in a November dusk at somewhere like Ely or King’s Cambridge is unbearably profound
Are there any great Catholic cathedrals in the UK? Westminster is too garish for me
Indeed, are there any great Catholic churches in the UK? Or did the Anglicans steal them all?
I rather thought that Durham, and Kirkwall, which I'd have mentioned if you didn't say "English" at the start, and probably put you onto anyway in the first place, and Wells, and so on ... were sort of designed and built by chaps who would call themselves RCs.
If you are thinking of cathedrals built after the re-establishment of the RC hierarchy in GB, then it's modern - C19, C20. Might be worth considering Liverpool and Bristol (Clifton).
Well I don't know if anyone is betting on it, but would suggest that the value bet might be to lay England at 1.14 in their match v Belgium, given they have underwhelmed in the first two Nations League matches.
Belgium are currently top of the table and available at 30
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If Cleverley or Bad-Enoch had actually done anything you might have a point. I imagine more people know of the vogue editor than the minister for business and trade. And yes, the things they have done have been to deliberately polarise a majority against them.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
No, but it's as close to objective truth as you can get that the clashing agendas of various powers and the searches for solutions to a difficult problem down the years since 1948 have left the Palestinian people wronged and stuffed.
The Palestinians are not passive spectators in all this. They have on repeated occasions made many stupid choices which has made their position very much worse than it might otherwise have been. Pretending that it has all been done to them and not also by them is ahistorical nonsense and treats them like children.
The Palestinians have had some agency in their own decisions.
But they've also been used as the cannon fodder and 'useful victims' by a multitude of Israel and Jew haters.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
No. Utterly wrong
The beauty of Anglicanism is that it was a continuation AND a rupture. It removed the grotesque or tawdry tat you see in Catholic Churches but kept the best of the spiritual beauty
That is why Anglican cathedrals are, weirdly, more moving than cathedrals elsewhere in much of Europe
Plus the Anglican choral musical tradition is peerless. Evensong in a November dusk at somewhere like Ely or King’s Cambridge is unbearably profound
That 'Carols at Kings' very precise choirboy singing (which I love very much) was largely a post-war invention, that's my understanding.
As @algarkirk said, Carlisle cathedral is indeed lovely - a hidden gem. I was there last week and loved it. For a small cathedral there is much to see inside, the setting is beautiful and Evensong was tremendous on the day we went.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
My faves are the obvious ones
Ely Wells Lincoln Durham Salisbury King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?) Guildford (lol) Truro (too modern) And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.
Just imagine what Ely Cathedral must have looked like before the fens were drained. On its island amid the waters.
You can still get that floating effect on a cold misty day - which are not unknown in the fenlands - the cathedral rises above the grey oceanic swirl
One of my favourite walks is along the Cam // Great Ouse from Cambridge or Waterbeach north to Ely. You get the cathedral slowly growing up in front of you, becoming larger and more prominent. I haven't done it for a few years, and I've no idea if the new bypass has spoilt that effect or not...
Incidentally, you can get tours of Ely's lantern tower, which is worth the effort, and apparently you can see Peterborough cathedral from it - though I never have. Peterborough's another excellent cathedral that deserves to be on the list - except for the location...
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
There's a 'bastion of civilisation against the hordes' undercurrent.
What a lot of people seem to forget is that there was a ceasefire on October 6th. Hamas shattered that of their own volition in a wanton rampage of slaughter and destruction. What should Israel have done? Let them go back to Gaza and then declare a ceasefire until Hamas chooses to do it again?
Hamas need to be stopped. There needs to be support for the Palestinian civilians but why do people expect the Israelis to do this?
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
I find the lack of outrage so depressing. Even more so when the IDF told people to move south to safety and then proceeded to bomb them there . Gaza needs a 100 trucks a day in aid , in 20 days it’s not even reached that figure .
And do you blame Israel for the fact Egypt is blockading Gaza? 🤦♂️
Egypt isn’t the one refusing to let aid in . Gazans are also worried that if they leave they won’t ever return . Israel if it could would annex the whole strip .
While I agree with your second and third sentences, your first is wrong. Egypt is doing everything it can to stop aid going in:
You must remember the Egyptian government absolutely hates Hamas. Indeed, the current president took power in a coup against what amounts to their Egyptian branch.
In addition - the experience in the region of those countries that have taken in substantial refugee population of Palestinians, gives pause to any thinking of doing so now.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
It is hard to believe. Yet Israel does have the right to defend itself, and is it not obliged to supply its sworn enemy with food and water. That responsibility falls, surely to the government of the state (entity?) declaring war, to provide for its own people as best it can. If it didn't take care to build up sufficient supplies of food, water and fuel before taking such provocative action, then that is its own fault.
But as we know, Hamas cares not one jot for human life.
And I say this with no joy at all, as someone who at one time was fully behind the Palestinian cause, and considers the Netanyahu government to be beneath contempt.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
I find the lack of outrage so depressing. Even more so when the IDF told people to move south to safety and then proceeded to bomb them there . Gaza needs a 100 trucks a day in aid , in 20 days it’s not even reached that figure .
And do you blame Israel for the fact Egypt is blockading Gaza? 🤦♂️
Egypt isn’t the one refusing to let aid in . Gazans are also worried that if they leave they won’t ever return . Israel if it could would annex the whole strip .
Egypt isn't the one refusing to let aid in?
You what!?
Aid is due to travel via the Rafah crossing, which is a border between Gaza and which country in your world?
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
So the World sits by and does nothing. Will we ever learn? Rwanda, Sri Lanka and now Gaza.
I find the lack of outrage so depressing. Even more so when the IDF told people to move south to safety and then proceeded to bomb them there . Gaza needs a 100 trucks a day in aid , in 20 days it’s not even reached that figure .
And do you blame Israel for the fact Egypt is blockading Gaza? 🤦♂️
Egypt isn’t the one refusing to let aid in . Gazans are also worried that if they leave they won’t ever return . Israel if it could would annex the whole strip .
While I agree with your second and third sentences, your first is wrong. Egypt is doing everything it can to stop aid going in:
You must remember the Egyptian government absolutely hates Hamas. Indeed, the current president took power in a coup against what amounts to their Egyptian branch.
In addition - the experience in the region of those countries that have taken in substantial refugee population of Palestinians, gives pause to any thinking of doing so now.
Jordan and Lebanon…
Add in Kuwait who kicked out 400,000 Palestinians because they supported Saddam Husein and roughed up the Kuwaitis.
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If Cleverley or Bad-Enoch had actually done anything you might have a point. I imagine more people know of the vogue editor than the minister for business and trade. And yes, the things they have done have been to deliberately polarise a majority against them.
Thanks for proving my point that its a political decision.
Cleverly and Badenoch are obviously more influential than whoever these people are:
Tunde Olanrewaju - senior partner and managing partner, McKinsey & Company Joshua Siaw, MBE - partner, White & Case Syreeta Brown - group chief people and communications officer, Virgin Money UK
and clearly examples of how black people can rise to the highest levels of government.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Are you in favour of the death penalty?
I am in favour of justice. If someone killed my child, I would go to their house and kill him (assuming I had the means and wasn't prevented from doing so). But no matter how much my grief, I wouldn't go round and blow up their street killing the murderer and numerous innocents at the same time. That would make me as bad as him.
And that's fair enough. But what if that person, after killing your child, was willing to kill your other children. You. And all your family? What if that person's entire reason for being was to wipe your kind off the face of the Earth?
Because that's what Hamas wants.
Yes. Absolutely
For me the great horrifying revelation of the last three weeks has been this: the Hamas Charter is not some obscure anomaly, not some historic document with unfortunate phrasing in modern times, it is absolutely what they believe, and it explains in detail what will do given the chance. As Hitler carefully and publicly explained in Mein Kampf
It is Islamic anti-Semitism, in its purest form. It has taken the worst of the Jew-hating hadiths and the anti-Jewish Koranic scriptures and distilled them into total Jew hatred. Given the chance Hamas will kill every Jew in the Middle East, with eager cruelty, and probably Jews everywhere, if they got nuclear weapons, or whatever
Hamas cannot be allowed to exist, any more, certainly not by Israel
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
There's a 'bastion of civilisation against the hordes' undercurrent.
Absolutely. On one side you have the evil Israelis with their nasty democracy and socially liberal values versus those loveable rogues of Hamas who aren’t big fans of democracy, treat women as second class citizens, don’t tolerate (to put it nicely) gay people, aren’t big fans of freedom of religious expression.
Are there any great Catholic cathedrals in the UK? Westminster is too garish for me
Indeed, are there any great Catholic churches in the UK? Or did the Anglicans steal them all?
I rather thought that Durham, and Kirkwall, which I'd have mentioned if you didn't say "English" at the start, and probably put you onto anyway in the first place, and Wells, and so on ... were sort of designed and built by chaps who would call themselves RCs.
If you are thinking of cathedrals built after the re-establishment of the RC hierarchy in GB, then it's modern - C19, C20. Might be worth considering Liverpool and Bristol (Clifton).
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
What rot.
Palestinians do count as fully fledged human beings, but the problem is that Hamas as the leaders of the Palestinians in Gaza don't treat their own civilians as fully fledged human beings.
Its Britain's responsibility to look after its own civilians first. Its Israel's responsibility to look after its own civilians first. Its Egypt's responsibility to look after its own civilians. Its the Palestinians authorities responsibility to look after its own civilians.
Unfortunately, Hamas as the Palestinian authority in Gaza chose to start a bloodythirsty war and use its own civilians as human shields.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
Given what we have seen levelled at Jews in this country here by fellow Britons, that charge could - and should - just as easily be made against those people who seem to think that being pro-Palestinian entitles them to be pretty bloody horrible to British Jews and to talk about 1400 murdered people in Israel who, for the record, did not just include Jews but Arabs and others like the Filippino carers of old people who stayed as if they do not count as human beings because they are "colonialists" or "settlers" or whatever.
Why is it that so many people on here find it so hard to notice or admit or care about what British Jews here - our fellow citizens - are feeling right now?
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If Cleverley or Bad-Enoch had actually done anything you might have a point. I imagine more people know of the vogue editor than the minister for business and trade. And yes, the things they have done have been to deliberately polarise a majority against them.
Thanks for proving my point that its a political decision.
Cleverly and Badenoch are obviously more influential than whoever these people are:
Tunde Olanrewaju - senior partner and managing partner, McKinsey & Company Joshua Siaw, MBE - partner, White & Case Syreeta Brown - group chief people and communications officer, Virgin Money UK
and clearly examples of how black people can rise to the highest levels of government.
I don't believe I could prove any of your views, not sure I'd ever want to either way.
40 minutes till the vote. Unlike the USA and Russia ones which were likely always bound to fail the Jordan proposal looks to me a genuine choice for nations. It's a fairly well regarded middle eastern nation, and off the top of my head I'd guess I'd say it is broadly Saudi aligned and not Iran to see who supports the proposal will be interesting.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
There's a 'bastion of civilisation against the hordes' undercurrent.
Absolutely. On one side you have the evil Israelis with their nasty democracy and socially liberal values versus those loveable rogues of Hamas who aren’t big fans of democracy, treat women as second class citizens, don’t tolerate (to put it nicely) gay people, aren’t big fans of freedom of religious expression.
Hang on, it is civilisation against the hordes.
Glad you've admitted it. Time to don your pot helmet, charm and chain shirt and get out there to show the inferiors what's up?
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
There's a 'bastion of civilisation against the hordes' undercurrent.
Absolutely. On one side you have the evil Israelis with their nasty democracy and socially liberal values versus those loveable rogues of Hamas who aren’t big fans of democracy, treat women as second class citizens, don’t tolerate (to put it nicely) gay people, aren’t big fans of freedom of religious expression.
Hang on, it is civilisation against the hordes.
Glad you've admitted it. Time to don your pot helmet, charm and chain shirt and get out there to show the inferiors what's up?
Or we could just provide the IDF with whatever military aid they need to wipe out Hamas in full.
"Humza Yousaf has responded to Elon Musk after the owner of X branded him a “blatant racist” in a social media post.
"The first minister responded by posting a Still Game reference to X after Musk hit out at him online."
Yousaf is a blatant racist, however. That video - and the way he spits the word “white” like it a disgusting and awful curse-word - is all the proof you need
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
There's a 'bastion of civilisation against the hordes' undercurrent.
Absolutely. On one side you have the evil Israelis with their nasty democracy and socially liberal values versus those loveable rogues of Hamas who aren’t big fans of democracy, treat women as second class citizens, don’t tolerate (to put it nicely) gay people, aren’t big fans of freedom of religious expression.
Hang on, it is civilisation against the hordes.
Glad you've admitted it. Time to don your pot helmet, charm and chain shirt and get out there to show the inferiors what's up?
Absolutely pathetic attempt to try and label me as some sort of colonialist racist for wanting people to be free to live in a country where they can safely be gay, have equal rights as women and practice their religion without fear.
"Humza Yousaf has responded to Elon Musk after the owner of X branded him a “blatant racist” in a social media post.
"The first minister responded by posting a Still Game reference to X after Musk hit out at him online."
Yousaf is a blatant racist, however. That video - and the way he spits the word “white” like it a disgusting and awful curse-word - is all the proof you need
How amusing that Elon has called him out
Allegedly the video is a rather heavily-edited beast. I'm not exactly a fan of Yousaf , but given Musk's tendency to lie about everything, expect that video to be not quite the truth.
Incidentally, Musk and his fellow tech bros are getting rather seriously up Putin's bottom atm. If you are on Ukraine's side, then be worried.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
But the opposite also applies.
Why are Palestinians deemed to be so much more deserving than the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh who were blockaded, bombarded and then ethnically cleansed this year ?
Or the African Sundanese who are again having a genocidal campaign waged against then right now ?
Or the Uighurs who have had a genocidal campaign waged against them for years ?
Or the Kurds or Assyrian Christians or any other group in the Middle East who have suffered for generations because they are different to those around them ?
The answer is that its not about the Palestinians but its about Israel and its about Israel because its a Jewish state and whether people are pro, anti or indifferent to Israel is linked to how pro, anti or indifferent they are to Jews.
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedrals
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg
Ironic that most of the cathedrals you mention were built as Catholic cathedrals.
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
No. Utterly wrong
The beauty of Anglicanism is that it was a continuation AND a rupture. It removed the grotesque or tawdry tat you see in Catholic Churches but kept the best of the spiritual beauty
That is why Anglican cathedrals are, weirdly, more moving than cathedrals elsewhere in much of Europe
Plus the Anglican choral musical tradition is peerless. Evensong in a November dusk at somewhere like Ely or King’s Cambridge is unbearably profound
No - I am not wrong. I have a view and an eye and an artistic sensibility which has been shaped by different currents to yours. The Reformation's rupture did not create some wonderful new spirituality. It channelled it elsewhere - into all the royal hoo ha, for instance, which helped the English disguise that what much of the Reformation was about was a simple seizure of property, looting and theft which allowed a lot of courtiers with an eye for the main chance to turn themselves into wealthy aristocrats who then thought this gave them the right to boss everyone else about and carry on with their looting.
Every so often the Catholic muscle memory of England shows itself - most notably after Diana's death - when all the flowers and tributes and claims that Dinah was somehow on the people's side interceding with higher powers resembled nothing so much as those tributes to the Virgin Mary you often see by the side of Italian roads. It struck me very obviously at the time and yet the English having lost their understanding of religion could not see it
Being English and Protestant does not automatically make you right you know.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The lack of sympathy being displayed towards British Jews right now worries me a lot.
Agreed. It's not just the lack of sympathy. It's the callous cruelty - tearing down posters, defacing them, threatening schools etc.,.
I think some people enjoy being able to justify cruelty to a group they classify as "wrong" by claiming that they are just concerned with being kind to their favoured "in" group. In some cases, people only side with the "in" group precisely because it allows them to be horrible to Jews - while wrapped up in self-proclaimed virtue.
It bodes very ill for our society. We can do nothing about what happens in the Middle East. But we can do something about how we treat a small, vulnerable and now fearful minority here - instead of grandstanding about abroad. That's what Starmer, what all our politicians should be judged on.
It's why I so detest the notion of "punching up." The National Socialists claimed to be "punching up." It's treating a group like shit, and claiming to be virtuous as you do it.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
Scratch some of the more exuberant pro-Israeli pundits and you'll find the feeling that Palestinians don't count as fully fledged human beings. They fling the 'antisemitism' charge around like drunken sailors but are guilty of the same sort of thing, deciding a particular group of people are undeserving of any empathy or respect.
But the opposite also applies.
Why are Palestinians deemed to be so much more deserving than the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh who were blockaded, bombarded and then ethnically cleansed this year ?
Or the African Sudanese who are again having a genocidal campaign waged against then right now ?
Or the Uighurs who have had a genocidal campaign waged against them for years ?
Or the Kurds or Assyrian Christians or any other group in the Middle East who have suffered for generations because they are different to those around them ?
The answer is that its not about the Palestinians but its about Israel and its about Israel because its a Jewish state and whether people are pro, anti or indifferent to Israel is linked to how pro, anti or indifferent they are to Jews.
Don't forget the Western Saharans (Sahrawis) occupied by Morocco since 1975. Or how about the Kashmiris (1947)?
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.
An estimated 3000 children dead so far in Gaza, according to the WHO, but for some reason it doesn't count if they were killed by a psychopath in an F-16 rather than a psychopath with a knife.
No, it absolutely doesn't. Psychopaths murdering people is cold-blooded murder.
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
I prefer to blame whoever is holding the knife, pulling the trigger or pressing the button.
Then you're wrong.
So if Ukraine accidentally kills people in the crossfire while retaliating to Russia's invasion, then that's Ukraine's fault since they pulled the trigger rather than Russia's fault for invading?
Hamas are the monsters who started this, and are using civilians as human shields. They are the ones responsible for all Gazan casualties.
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If Cleverley or Bad-Enoch had actually done anything you might have a point. I imagine more people know of the vogue editor than the minister for business and trade. And yes, the things they have done have been to deliberately polarise a majority against them.
Thanks for proving my point that its a political decision.
Cleverly and Badenoch are obviously more influential than whoever these people are:
Tunde Olanrewaju - senior partner and managing partner, McKinsey & Company Joshua Siaw, MBE - partner, White & Case Syreeta Brown - group chief people and communications officer, Virgin Money UK
and clearly examples of how black people can rise to the highest levels of government.
I don't believe I could prove any of your views, not sure I'd ever want to either way.
Okay, if you want to believe that some lawyer at a firm I've just had to google is more influential than the Foreign Secretary then that's your choice.
It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
No, but it's as close to objective truth as you can get that the clashing agendas of various powers and the searches for solutions to a difficult problem down the years since 1948 have left the Palestinian people wronged and stuffed.
The Palestinians are not passive spectators in all this. They have on repeated occasions made many stupid choices which has made their position very much worse than it might otherwise have been. Pretending that it has all been done to them and not also by them is ahistorical nonsense and treats them like children.
The Palestinians have had some agency in their own decisions.
But they've also been used as the cannon fodder and 'useful victims' by a multitude of Israel and Jew haters.
And have been massacred by fellow Arabs - notably Jordanians in September 1971 - and expelled from other countries: Jordan, Lebanon and Kuwait.
Comments
How this ends…I do not know
Serious question. Is there some news?
Weren't presenters in Israel talking about Holly Willoughbooby leaving a TV show while war was waging around them?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMTZaOrDk-c
We should be focussing on these places and how (if possible) to make them better.
Elon Musk vs Humza Yousaf
https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,humza-yousaf-responds-after-elon-musk-brands-him-a-blatant-racist
"Humza Yousaf has responded to Elon Musk after the owner of X branded him a “blatant racist” in a social media post.
"The first minister responded by posting a Still Game reference to X after Musk hit out at him online."
Casualties getting caught in the crossfire is what happens in war, its not murder.
One is appalling and inexcusable, the other is a tragedy but what happens in war.
Blame Hamas for all the Gazan civilians caught in the crossfire of a war Hamas chose to fight.
When you say to them We kill people all the time with bombs and drones and the like, in wars, or even just pre emptive action, how is that morally different to hanging someone after a trial (and in the latter at least you are probably hanging the guilty)? - then they reply (and I imagine you would reply - unless you favour capital punishment) - it’s just different. Killing someone in cold blood who does not threaten you is closer to murder
So there’s the difference
I think some people enjoy being able to justify cruelty to a group they classify as "wrong" by claiming that they are just concerned with being kind to their favoured "in" group. In some cases, people only side with the "in" group precisely because it allows them to be horrible to Jews - while wrapped up in self-proclaimed virtue.
It bodes very ill for our society. We can do nothing about what happens in the Middle East. But we can do something about how we treat a small, vulnerable and now fearful minority here - instead of grandstanding about abroad. That's what Starmer, what all our politicians should be judged on.
power - and its titanic shadows - so the young queen always seems endangered. Great location work
And Carlisle, tiny and ignored and unvisited by the hordes, mostly destroyed by the Scots but for a a heart aching Romanesque fragment, and the choir and chancel now make up the whole thing. And, being where it is, it sustains a decent choral tradition on the most limited of resources.
So if Ukraine accidentally kills people in the crossfire while retaliating to Russia's invasion, then that's Ukraine's fault since they pulled the trigger rather than Russia's fault for invading?
Hamas are the monsters who started this, and are using civilians as human shields. They are the ones responsible for all Gazan casualties.
I oppose the death penalty. I am OK with the Police as a last resort killing an armed suspect who is engaged in a rampage, in order for the Police to protect others when he gets taken down, like with the terrorist attacks in London a few years ago. If they're arrested though, then no killing them afterwards.
Cold blooded murder and fog of war are not the same thing.
Hard to believe in the 21st century we are watching the effective starvation of 2 million people under siege . I appreciate some in here could care less under the “ Israel has a right to defend itself “ .
I didn’t realize that right extended to killing over 2,000 children .
The basic thought of the Israelis, given the horrible aggression against them, has to be to eliminate the enemy - and unfortunately that's the Gaza strip.
It's not right, but it just is.
In fire
The civilian casualties would be greatly lowered if Egypt or other nations in the area were willing to offer safe refuge to civilians to avoid the conflict. Its disgusting that nobody is.
Fort Drum, essentially.
Indeed, are there any great Catholic churches in the UK? Or did the Anglicans steal them all?
I dont see any outrage
Why is Egypt blockading Gaza and refusing to allow civilians to seek refuge, or the Red Crescent to bring aid into Gaza?
Powerful Media's annual list celebrates people of African, African Caribbean and African American heritage.
Now in its 18th year, it highlights black role models to young people.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67229513
This list of influential black British people doesn't include Foreign Secretary James Cleverly or Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.
Presumably they're the wrong sort of black person for some reason.
If you are thinking of cathedrals built after the re-establishment of the RC hierarchy in GB, then it's modern - C19, C20. Might be worth considering Liverpool and Bristol (Clifton).
For the record: I don't think the person who just used the term meant that, which is why I didn't name them.
(Odd historical fact: When the term "neoconservative" first became common, it was used to describe a group of intellectuals who thought many anti-poverty programs under LBJ had failed, and were looking for better ways to help the poor. Their principal magazine was The Public Interest, which never published articles on foreign policy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Public_Interest
I subscribed for a number of years, and still have about 20 issues.
For the curious: You can read some of their articles here: https://www.nationalaffairs.com/public_interest/issues/spring-2005 )
I feel the opposite to you. Having been brought up in Naples amidst fantastic baroque architecture and going to such churches every week for years, I find the spareness of Protestant churches weird - as if they are unfinished. Minimalism seems to me to be inhuman.There was something inhuman about the destruction of religious art during the Reformation; it damaged Britain's visual sense in a very profound way - from which it has never truly recovered.
If they don't that's what happens in a war.
Irrespective of the military situation the Palestinians should be encouraged to leave Gaza as it is clearly impossible for over two million people to be economically supported by a territory smaller than the county of Rutland.
You draw a distinction between killing someone close at hand, in cold blood, who is no threat to you (even after a trial establishing their murderous guilt!) - and killing people at a distance as a byproduct of war, who may be innocent, but that is unfortunately part of war
That is what Israel is doing. So you agree with the Israeli action and disapprove of what Hamas did (without even a trial!). Or you are just utterly incoherent
Because that's what Hamas wants.
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/culture/sky-news-holly-willoughby-israel-jerusalem-video-b2427739.html
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-food-chief-criticizes-strict-rafah-crossing-checks-limiting-gaza-aid-2023-10-26/
You must remember the Egyptian government absolutely hates Hamas. Indeed, the current president took power in a coup against what amounts to their Egyptian branch.
The beauty of Anglicanism is that it was a continuation AND a rupture. It removed the grotesque or tawdry tat you see in Catholic Churches but kept the best of the spiritual beauty
That is why Anglican cathedrals are, weirdly, more moving than cathedrals elsewhere in much of Europe
Plus the Anglican choral musical tradition is peerless. Evensong in a November dusk at somewhere like Ely or King’s Cambridge is unbearably profound
I am not unaware we had a Reformation
Belgium are currently top of the table and available at 30
But they've also been used as the cannon fodder and 'useful victims' by a multitude of Israel and Jew haters.
Incidentally, you can get tours of Ely's lantern tower, which is worth the effort, and apparently you can see Peterborough cathedral from it - though I never have. Peterborough's another excellent cathedral that deserves to be on the list - except for the location...
Hamas need to be stopped. There needs to be support for the Palestinian civilians but why do people expect the Israelis to do this?
Jordan and Lebanon…
But as we know, Hamas cares not one jot for human life.
And I say this with no joy at all, as someone who at one time was fully behind the Palestinian cause, and considers the Netanyahu government to be beneath contempt.
You what!?
Aid is due to travel via the Rafah crossing, which is a border between Gaza and which country in your world?
A: Egypt.
B: Israel.
Cleverly and Badenoch are obviously more influential than whoever these people are:
Tunde Olanrewaju - senior partner and managing partner, McKinsey & Company
Joshua Siaw, MBE - partner, White & Case
Syreeta Brown - group chief people and communications officer, Virgin Money UK
and clearly examples of how black people can rise to the highest levels of government.
For me the great horrifying revelation of the last three weeks has been this: the Hamas Charter is not some obscure anomaly, not some historic document with unfortunate phrasing in modern times, it is absolutely what they believe, and it explains in detail what will do given the chance. As Hitler carefully and publicly explained in Mein Kampf
It is Islamic anti-Semitism, in its purest form. It has taken the worst of the Jew-hating hadiths and the anti-Jewish Koranic scriptures and distilled them into total Jew hatred. Given the chance Hamas will kill every Jew in the Middle East, with eager cruelty, and probably Jews everywhere, if they got nuclear weapons, or whatever
Hamas cannot be allowed to exist, any more, certainly not by Israel
See the Gulf war.
It's a headache for Starmer but he can win with discontent on his left.
Hang on, it is civilisation against the hordes.
Palestinians do count as fully fledged human beings, but the problem is that Hamas as the leaders of the Palestinians in Gaza don't treat their own civilians as fully fledged human beings.
Its Britain's responsibility to look after its own civilians first. Its Israel's responsibility to look after its own civilians first. Its Egypt's responsibility to look after its own civilians. Its the Palestinians authorities responsibility to look after its own civilians.
Unfortunately, Hamas as the Palestinian authority in Gaza chose to start a bloodythirsty war and use its own civilians as human shields.
Why is it that so many people on here find it so hard to notice or admit or care about what British Jews here - our fellow citizens - are feeling right now?
How amusing that Elon has called him out
If Starmer keeps this up and Israel commit the sort of slaughter of which we know they're capable things could get interesting.
Supporting a side in a ridiculously one sided war can be dangerous for Labour leader and an ambitious Burnham isn't someone you'd want behind you
I shall go and examine my inner immorality.
Incidentally, Musk and his fellow tech bros are getting rather seriously up Putin's bottom atm. If you are on Ukraine's side, then be worried.
Why are Palestinians deemed to be so much more deserving than the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh who were blockaded, bombarded and then ethnically cleansed this year ?
Or the African Sundanese who are again having a genocidal campaign waged against then right now ?
Or the Uighurs who have had a genocidal campaign waged against them for years ?
Or the Kurds or Assyrian Christians or any other group in the Middle East who have suffered for generations because they are different to those around them ?
The answer is that its not about the Palestinians but its about Israel and its about Israel because its a Jewish state and whether people are pro, anti or indifferent to Israel is linked to how pro, anti or indifferent they are to Jews.
Every so often the Catholic muscle memory of England shows itself - most notably after Diana's death - when all the flowers and tributes and claims that Dinah was somehow on the people's side interceding with higher powers resembled nothing so much as those tributes to the Virgin Mary you often see by the side of Italian roads. It struck me very obviously at the time and yet the English having lost their understanding of religion could not see it
Being English and Protestant does not automatically make you right you know.