A quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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Well that's Mr Blair for you. On the other hand I dont see your big demos for Uighirs, Christians in Pakistan, whites in Zimbabwe etc. I suppose it might be different if they were countries run by jews.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine3 -
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The fees charged are unlikely to be much, but if the firm is processing these claims in bulk, it will be profitable for them.noneoftheabove said:
https://www.flightright.co.uk/about-usrcs1000 said:@Sean_F
There's clearly a gap in the market for a specialist law firm whose only business is suing EasyJet/WhizzAir/etc.
Gap filled.0 -
140 employees, 430m euros paid out over 10 years, they take about a quarter.Sean_F said:
The fees charged are unlikely to be much, but if the firm is processing these claims in bulk, it will be profitable for them.noneoftheabove said:
https://www.flightright.co.uk/about-usrcs1000 said:@Sean_F
There's clearly a gap in the market for a specialist law firm whose only business is suing EasyJet/WhizzAir/etc.
Gap filled.2 -
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.1 -
The biggest hole in flight compensation regulation is the question of whether it’s the airline’s fault. I suspect that as soon as there’s a sniff of, say, industrial action by French ATC, they also move crew from those flights to the ones with a less good excuse. The former get even worse delays than they should have, but no one can prove it.noneoftheabove said:
Yeah, less good in the policing of blue chip vs individuals in the first place though. Regulators need to be tougher when obvious, unfair and persistent shenanigans are deployed.rcs1000 said:
Capitalism is amazing like thatnoneoftheabove said:
https://www.flightright.co.uk/about-usrcs1000 said:@Sean_F
There's clearly a gap in the market for a specialist law firm whose only business is suing EasyJet/WhizzAir/etc.
Gap filled.
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And of course crimes of their own to commit.Fishing said:
How can they be expected to when there are misgendering incidents to investigate, diversity targets to achieve or shoplifters to ignore?FrancisUrquhart said:BBC News - Hate crime soars in London amid Israel-Gaza conflict
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67241374
Imagine how high it would be if the MET actually did their job....5 -
Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense0 -
The Wallace Collection is rather nice. It's free and, when I've been there, not too busy either. Not claiming its the best in the world, or even in London, but it's well worth a visit. And it has The Laughing Cavalier and A Dance to the Music of Time which ain't bad.Leon said:
Well for a start I would dispute that the Gulbenkian is small, which is what we were arguing about? The best small museum?Nigelb said:.
That's from their Chinese porcelain collection, btw.Nigelb said:
Says you.Leon said:
No. Absurd American biasNigelb said:
The Gulbenkian then.rcs1000 said:
Well, that's a great PB question.Benpointer said:
Its focus is a big plus imo. Too many art galleries try to cover far too much, and do it poorly.Leon said:
No, absurdBenpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It only has Dutch golden age art, really. Which js amazing but rather limiting…
It is one of the finest SMALL museums in the world
I may be biased by my love of the Dutch Golden Age, of course.
What are the best *small* art galleries in the world?
The requirement being that you can see all the exhibits in an hour.
I would nominate the Hammer in Los Angeles, with an honourable mention for the Santa Barbara Museum of Art.
Confine yourself to the paintings, and you could do that.
The Courtauld beats all of those
Elsewhere in the building ..masterpieces by western European artists such as Domenico Ghirlandaio, Rubens, Rembrandt, Rodin, Carpeaux, Houdon, Renoir, Dierick Bouts, Vittore Carpaccio, Cima da Conegliano, Van Dyck, Corot, Degas, Nattier, George Romney, Stefan Lochner, Maurice-Quentin de La Tour, Édouard Manet, Henri Fantin-Latour, Claude Monet, Jean-François Millet, Sir Edward Burne-Jones, Thomas Gainsborough, Joseph Mallord William Turner, Jean-Honoré Fragonard, Giovanni Battista Moroni, Frans Hals, Ruisdael, Boucher, Largillière, Andrea della Robbia, Pisanello, Jean-Baptiste Pigalle, Antonio Rossellino, André-Charles Boulle ,Charles Cressent, Oeben, Riesener, Antoine-Sébastien Durand, Charles Spire, Jean Deforges, François-Thomas Germain...
Are you thinking of the modern art building next door, Leon ?
It is a splendid museum but it is fairly massive IIRC
Whereas the Courtauld is small but exquisitely formed and has three of the most famous paintings in the entire world
The Bar at the Folies Bergere - Manet
Self Portrait with Bandaged Ear - Van Gogh
Adam and Eve - Cranach
And you can whizz through the rest in an hour or two0 -
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
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Courtauld is quite unbeatable in the small but world class category. Not in the same league at all, but small and surprising: Pallant House, Chichester; Fairfax House, York. Small and still feels like a provincial museum from the 1930s: Senhouse, Maryport. Worth seeing but not worth going to see.rcs1000 said:
The Courtauld is absolutely magnificent, and would definitely be a part of any great small museums list.Leon said:
Well for a start I would dispute that the Gulbenkian is small, which is what we were arguing about? The best small museum?Nigelb said:.
That's from their Chinese porcelain collection, btw.Nigelb said:
Says you.Leon said:
No. Absurd American biasNigelb said:
The Gulbenkian then.rcs1000 said:
Well, that's a great PB question.Benpointer said:
Its focus is a big plus imo. Too many art galleries try to cover far too much, and do it poorly.Leon said:
No, absurdBenpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It only has Dutch golden age art, really. Which js amazing but rather limiting…
It is one of the finest SMALL museums in the world
I may be biased by my love of the Dutch Golden Age, of course.
What are the best *small* art galleries in the world?
The requirement being that you can see all the exhibits in an hour.
I would nominate the Hammer in Los Angeles, with an honourable mention for the Santa Barbara Museum of Art.
Confine yourself to the paintings, and you could do that.
The Courtauld beats all of those
Elsewhere in the building ..masterpieces by western European artists such as Domenico Ghirlandaio, Rubens, Rembrandt, Rodin, Carpeaux, Houdon, Renoir, Dierick Bouts, Vittore Carpaccio, Cima da Conegliano, Van Dyck, Corot, Degas, Nattier, George Romney, Stefan Lochner, Maurice-Quentin de La Tour, Édouard Manet, Henri Fantin-Latour, Claude Monet, Jean-François Millet, Sir Edward Burne-Jones, Thomas Gainsborough, Joseph Mallord William Turner, Jean-Honoré Fragonard, Giovanni Battista Moroni, Frans Hals, Ruisdael, Boucher, Largillière, Andrea della Robbia, Pisanello, Jean-Baptiste Pigalle, Antonio Rossellino, André-Charles Boulle ,Charles Cressent, Oeben, Riesener, Antoine-Sébastien Durand, Charles Spire, Jean Deforges, François-Thomas Germain...
Are you thinking of the modern art building next door, Leon ?
It is a splendid museum but it is fairly massive IIRC
Whereas the Courtauld is small but exquisitely formed and has three of the most famous paintings in the entire world
The Bar at the Folies Bergere - Manet
Self Portrait with Bandaged Ear - Van Gogh
Adam and Eve - Cranach
And you can whizz through the rest in an hour or two
Hidden in plain sight in unprepossessing setting and world class quality: The medieval stained glass in All Saints, North Street, York. Just staggering.0 -
Though there were quite a few on the right who persuaded themselves otherwise.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.2 -
The fan museum in Greenwich is rather nice and very tiny.Burgessian said:
The Wallace Collection is rather nice. It's free and, when I've been there, not too busy either. Not claiming its the best in the world, or even in London, but it's well worth a visit. And it has The Laughing Cavalier and A Dance to the Music of Time which ain't bad.Leon said:
Well for a start I would dispute that the Gulbenkian is small, which is what we were arguing about? The best small museum?Nigelb said:.
That's from their Chinese porcelain collection, btw.Nigelb said:
Says you.Leon said:
No. Absurd American biasNigelb said:
The Gulbenkian then.rcs1000 said:
Well, that's a great PB question.Benpointer said:
Its focus is a big plus imo. Too many art galleries try to cover far too much, and do it poorly.Leon said:
No, absurdBenpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It only has Dutch golden age art, really. Which js amazing but rather limiting…
It is one of the finest SMALL museums in the world
I may be biased by my love of the Dutch Golden Age, of course.
What are the best *small* art galleries in the world?
The requirement being that you can see all the exhibits in an hour.
I would nominate the Hammer in Los Angeles, with an honourable mention for the Santa Barbara Museum of Art.
Confine yourself to the paintings, and you could do that.
The Courtauld beats all of those
Elsewhere in the building ..masterpieces by western European artists such as Domenico Ghirlandaio, Rubens, Rembrandt, Rodin, Carpeaux, Houdon, Renoir, Dierick Bouts, Vittore Carpaccio, Cima da Conegliano, Van Dyck, Corot, Degas, Nattier, George Romney, Stefan Lochner, Maurice-Quentin de La Tour, Édouard Manet, Henri Fantin-Latour, Claude Monet, Jean-François Millet, Sir Edward Burne-Jones, Thomas Gainsborough, Joseph Mallord William Turner, Jean-Honoré Fragonard, Giovanni Battista Moroni, Frans Hals, Ruisdael, Boucher, Largillière, Andrea della Robbia, Pisanello, Jean-Baptiste Pigalle, Antonio Rossellino, André-Charles Boulle ,Charles Cressent, Oeben, Riesener, Antoine-Sébastien Durand, Charles Spire, Jean Deforges, François-Thomas Germain...
Are you thinking of the modern art building next door, Leon ?
It is a splendid museum but it is fairly massive IIRC
Whereas the Courtauld is small but exquisitely formed and has three of the most famous paintings in the entire world
The Bar at the Folies Bergere - Manet
Self Portrait with Bandaged Ear - Van Gogh
Adam and Eve - Cranach
And you can whizz through the rest in an hour or two0 -
Yes it’s charming. London is blessed with quite a few places like that. The Dulwich picture gallery. Kenwood house. Hampton court has some fine paintings - the MantegnasBurgessian said:
The Wallace Collection is rather nice. It's free and, when I've been there, not too busy either. Not claiming its the best in the world, or even in London, but it's well worth a visit. And it has The Laughing Cavalier and A Dance to the Music of Time which ain't bad.Leon said:
Well for a start I would dispute that the Gulbenkian is small, which is what we were arguing about? The best small museum?Nigelb said:.
That's from their Chinese porcelain collection, btw.Nigelb said:
Says you.Leon said:
No. Absurd American biasNigelb said:
The Gulbenkian then.rcs1000 said:
Well, that's a great PB question.Benpointer said:
Its focus is a big plus imo. Too many art galleries try to cover far too much, and do it poorly.Leon said:
No, absurdBenpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It only has Dutch golden age art, really. Which js amazing but rather limiting…
It is one of the finest SMALL museums in the world
I may be biased by my love of the Dutch Golden Age, of course.
What are the best *small* art galleries in the world?
The requirement being that you can see all the exhibits in an hour.
I would nominate the Hammer in Los Angeles, with an honourable mention for the Santa Barbara Museum of Art.
Confine yourself to the paintings, and you could do that.
The Courtauld beats all of those
Elsewhere in the building ..masterpieces by western European artists such as Domenico Ghirlandaio, Rubens, Rembrandt, Rodin, Carpeaux, Houdon, Renoir, Dierick Bouts, Vittore Carpaccio, Cima da Conegliano, Van Dyck, Corot, Degas, Nattier, George Romney, Stefan Lochner, Maurice-Quentin de La Tour, Édouard Manet, Henri Fantin-Latour, Claude Monet, Jean-François Millet, Sir Edward Burne-Jones, Thomas Gainsborough, Joseph Mallord William Turner, Jean-Honoré Fragonard, Giovanni Battista Moroni, Frans Hals, Ruisdael, Boucher, Largillière, Andrea della Robbia, Pisanello, Jean-Baptiste Pigalle, Antonio Rossellino, André-Charles Boulle ,Charles Cressent, Oeben, Riesener, Antoine-Sébastien Durand, Charles Spire, Jean Deforges, François-Thomas Germain...
Are you thinking of the modern art building next door, Leon ?
It is a splendid museum but it is fairly massive IIRC
Whereas the Courtauld is small but exquisitely formed and has three of the most famous paintings in the entire world
The Bar at the Folies Bergere - Manet
Self Portrait with Bandaged Ear - Van Gogh
Adam and Eve - Cranach
And you can whizz through the rest in an hour or two
Not world class art galleries but possessing a couple of world class paintings0 -
I sat in the Anglican Cathedral in Cape Town one afternoon and had the whole place to myself. Its a victorian gothic.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
It was one of the most spiritual moments Ive ever had.1 -
You let him live in an EU City after contributing to our being black-balled!!Alanbrooke said:
Thanks, Ill do that, its a short walk from where my son lives.Gardenwalker said:
Go to the Musee Carnavalet.Alanbrooke said:
When I went it was extremely busy, I wished I had looked at the guides to see if there was a slack time. If you can clear the tourists there's more to look at.Benpointer said:
I have yet to see the Sainte Chappelle (the lift has been broken every time we've tried - I mean, I am grateful and surprised there even is a lift but it would be nice for it to work). Having studied gothic architecture in an evening class, It really would like to see the example for myself.Alanbrooke said:
Ive been to Paris quite a lot and my son has just moved there. Last time I did the Sainte Chappelle ( overrated ) and Notre Dame. ND was really good as they had an exhibition on the restoration which was really well presented. The other thing I have been advised to see is the catacombs not sure if they will be as good as the hype.Richard_Tyndall said:
I wouldn't say it is the only thing worth visiting but it is certainly the shining gem. I much prefer the Musee D'Orsay to the Louvre.Alanbrooke said:
Musee D'Orsay for me, its about the only thing worth visiting in Paris.Benpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It's a fine gallery in a nice area. I'm sure you'll have been to the musee d'orsay but worth a visit every time you go. One of my favourites0 -
I'll be interested to see how Boris manages a live programme of his own. He's certainly well known enough to bring in viewers, but not sure he has enough affable composure and professionalism to be an easy watch and keep people tuning in. Perhaps they'll give him a telegenic female copresenter to keep the show on the road and Boris in line. I think a better format for him would be one of those programmes where a university professor wanders around enthusing about Greek ruins. They're scripted and you can just have a good voice and interesting screen presence (that he has). Boris on the Acropolis.1
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With the end of the Cold War, tolerance for South Africa's regime waned.Stuartinromford said:
Though there were quite a few on the right who persuaded themselves otherwise.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.0 -
…
One of the good things about the Wallace is that it’s not just the paintings. The armour and furniture collection is very good and so it’s a good smallish museum to take younger people in where there are lots of interesting things that can pique their interest and develop a love for something rather than just paintings. A good intro in central London that isn’t too much for youngsters who might not get the full appreciation of the National for example.Burgessian said:
The Wallace Collection is rather nice. It's free and, when I've been there, not too busy either. Not claiming its the best in the world, or even in London, but it's well worth a visit. And it has The Laughing Cavalier and A Dance to the Music of Time which ain't bad.Leon said:
Well for a start I would dispute that the Gulbenkian is small, which is what we were arguing about? The best small museum?Nigelb said:.
That's from their Chinese porcelain collection, btw.Nigelb said:
Says you.Leon said:
No. Absurd American biasNigelb said:
The Gulbenkian then.rcs1000 said:
Well, that's a great PB question.Benpointer said:
Its focus is a big plus imo. Too many art galleries try to cover far too much, and do it poorly.Leon said:
No, absurdBenpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It only has Dutch golden age art, really. Which js amazing but rather limiting…
It is one of the finest SMALL museums in the world
I may be biased by my love of the Dutch Golden Age, of course.
What are the best *small* art galleries in the world?
The requirement being that you can see all the exhibits in an hour.
I would nominate the Hammer in Los Angeles, with an honourable mention for the Santa Barbara Museum of Art.
Confine yourself to the paintings, and you could do that.
The Courtauld beats all of those
Elsewhere in the building ..masterpieces by western European artists such as Domenico Ghirlandaio, Rubens, Rembrandt, Rodin, Carpeaux, Houdon, Renoir, Dierick Bouts, Vittore Carpaccio, Cima da Conegliano, Van Dyck, Corot, Degas, Nattier, George Romney, Stefan Lochner, Maurice-Quentin de La Tour, Édouard Manet, Henri Fantin-Latour, Claude Monet, Jean-François Millet, Sir Edward Burne-Jones, Thomas Gainsborough, Joseph Mallord William Turner, Jean-Honoré Fragonard, Giovanni Battista Moroni, Frans Hals, Ruisdael, Boucher, Largillière, Andrea della Robbia, Pisanello, Jean-Baptiste Pigalle, Antonio Rossellino, André-Charles Boulle ,Charles Cressent, Oeben, Riesener, Antoine-Sébastien Durand, Charles Spire, Jean Deforges, François-Thomas Germain...
Are you thinking of the modern art building next door, Leon ?
It is a splendid museum but it is fairly massive IIRC
Whereas the Courtauld is small but exquisitely formed and has three of the most famous paintings in the entire world
The Bar at the Folies Bergere - Manet
Self Portrait with Bandaged Ear - Van Gogh
Adam and Eve - Cranach
And you can whizz through the rest in an hour or two1 -
United Airlines used to often cancel for bad weather, which also means no compensation.biggles said:
The biggest hole in flight compensation regulation is the question of whether it’s the airline’s fault. I suspect that as soon as there’s a sniff of, say, industrial action by French ATC, they also move crew from those flights to the ones with a less good excuse. The former get even worse delays than they should have, but no one can prove it.noneoftheabove said:
Yeah, less good in the policing of blue chip vs individuals in the first place though. Regulators need to be tougher when obvious, unfair and persistent shenanigans are deployed.rcs1000 said:
Capitalism is amazing like thatnoneoftheabove said:
https://www.flightright.co.uk/about-usrcs1000 said:@Sean_F
There's clearly a gap in the market for a specialist law firm whose only business is suing EasyJet/WhizzAir/etc.
Gap filled.1 -
The Wallace is nice, but not world class.Burgessian said:
The Wallace Collection is rather nice. It's free and, when I've been there, not too busy either. Not claiming its the best in the world, or even in London, but it's well worth a visit. And it has The Laughing Cavalier and A Dance to the Music of Time which ain't bad.Leon said:
Well for a start I would dispute that the Gulbenkian is small, which is what we were arguing about? The best small museum?Nigelb said:.
That's from their Chinese porcelain collection, btw.Nigelb said:
Says you.Leon said:
No. Absurd American biasNigelb said:
The Gulbenkian then.rcs1000 said:
Well, that's a great PB question.Benpointer said:
Its focus is a big plus imo. Too many art galleries try to cover far too much, and do it poorly.Leon said:
No, absurdBenpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It only has Dutch golden age art, really. Which js amazing but rather limiting…
It is one of the finest SMALL museums in the world
I may be biased by my love of the Dutch Golden Age, of course.
What are the best *small* art galleries in the world?
The requirement being that you can see all the exhibits in an hour.
I would nominate the Hammer in Los Angeles, with an honourable mention for the Santa Barbara Museum of Art.
Confine yourself to the paintings, and you could do that.
The Courtauld beats all of those
Elsewhere in the building ..masterpieces by western European artists such as Domenico Ghirlandaio, Rubens, Rembrandt, Rodin, Carpeaux, Houdon, Renoir, Dierick Bouts, Vittore Carpaccio, Cima da Conegliano, Van Dyck, Corot, Degas, Nattier, George Romney, Stefan Lochner, Maurice-Quentin de La Tour, Édouard Manet, Henri Fantin-Latour, Claude Monet, Jean-François Millet, Sir Edward Burne-Jones, Thomas Gainsborough, Joseph Mallord William Turner, Jean-Honoré Fragonard, Giovanni Battista Moroni, Frans Hals, Ruisdael, Boucher, Largillière, Andrea della Robbia, Pisanello, Jean-Baptiste Pigalle, Antonio Rossellino, André-Charles Boulle ,Charles Cressent, Oeben, Riesener, Antoine-Sébastien Durand, Charles Spire, Jean Deforges, François-Thomas Germain...
Are you thinking of the modern art building next door, Leon ?
It is a splendid museum but it is fairly massive IIRC
Whereas the Courtauld is small but exquisitely formed and has three of the most famous paintings in the entire world
The Bar at the Folies Bergere - Manet
Self Portrait with Bandaged Ear - Van Gogh
Adam and Eve - Cranach
And you can whizz through the rest in an hour or two0 -
We have our close finish in the cricket0
-
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
0 -
He's getting married next year to a francaise. But his Irish Passport lets him stroll about.Roger said:
You let him live in an EU City after contributing to our being black-balled!!Alanbrooke said:
Thanks, Ill do that, its a short walk from where my son lives.Gardenwalker said:
Go to the Musee Carnavalet.Alanbrooke said:
When I went it was extremely busy, I wished I had looked at the guides to see if there was a slack time. If you can clear the tourists there's more to look at.Benpointer said:
I have yet to see the Sainte Chappelle (the lift has been broken every time we've tried - I mean, I am grateful and surprised there even is a lift but it would be nice for it to work). Having studied gothic architecture in an evening class, It really would like to see the example for myself.Alanbrooke said:
Ive been to Paris quite a lot and my son has just moved there. Last time I did the Sainte Chappelle ( overrated ) and Notre Dame. ND was really good as they had an exhibition on the restoration which was really well presented. The other thing I have been advised to see is the catacombs not sure if they will be as good as the hype.Richard_Tyndall said:
I wouldn't say it is the only thing worth visiting but it is certainly the shining gem. I much prefer the Musee D'Orsay to the Louvre.Alanbrooke said:
Musee D'Orsay for me, its about the only thing worth visiting in Paris.Benpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It's a fine gallery in a nice area. I'm sure you'll have been to the musee d'orsay but worth a visit every time you go. One of my favourites0 -
Good to see that whatever happens in the world, South Africa are still a bunch of chokers at the World Cup.0
-
I see loads of Lab MPs have resigned from their front bench and select committee roles in protest at Starmer's handling of Israel/Gaza.
0 -
Starmer absolutely needs to stand firm against them.rottenborough said:I see loads of Lab MPs have resigned from their front bench and select committee roles in protest at Starmer's handling of Israel/Gaza.
1 -
He means it reached 2.718281828459045...rottenborough said:
"increased to exponential levels" ???DecrepiterJohnL said:
I passed one of the local Jewish schools today and can report that... it is half term.ydoethur said:Karen Pollock in the Holocaust Education Trust's October newsletter is uncharacteristically downbeat:
Since I wrote to you about the horrific massacre in Israel (you can read our statement again here), antisemitism in the UK has increased to exponential levels and many are feeling a heightened sense of anxiety as events continue to unfold. Our work to educate about the Holocaust and contemporary antisemitism could not be more important.
We know lots of people, including many in the Jewish community are feeling troubled and unsure due to current events.2 -
On topic, I don't think this will hurt Starmer for the election. Most Britons sympathise with both sides equally, and the Tories favour the Israelis more clearly than Labour. A few Corbynites and other anti-semites might be put off by Starmer, but it ain't going to shift much votes.0
-
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.1 -
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedralsStuartinromford said:
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg0 -
I found exactly the same. I love English Gothic cathedrals (no slight against any other UK countries as haven’t been to any of their cathedrals), their scale and general beauty and the settings are usually wonderful with the cathedral closes.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
I’ve always been a bit disappointed with the continental equivalents and I have put it down to, counterintuitively, the plainness of the interiors of the English ones. It’s like seeing a skeleton of a blue whale rather than a scale model of it with skin. The bones and the intricacy of construction are there in all their glory and not hidden by a riot of coloured columns and paintings.
I think if the Parthenon was complete it would be a more beautiful object in its stripped back, weathered current look rather than a riot of colour.1 -
Talking of which, I see that £75,000 has been raised for the two Met officers who were found to have lied.Richard_Tyndall said:
And of course crimes of their own to commit.Fishing said:
How can they be expected to when there are misgendering incidents to investigate, diversity targets to achieve or shoplifters to ignore?FrancisUrquhart said:BBC News - Hate crime soars in London amid Israel-Gaza conflict
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67241374
Imagine how high it would be if the MET actually did their job....
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/Clapham-Franks0 -
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?biggles said:
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
1 -
I think that’s it. Anglicanism is high church enough to be mystical and not too domestic, but subtle and austere enough not to be tacky.Stuartinromford said:
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense0 -
OTOH, the Church of St. Blaise in Dubrovnik, and Certosa San Martino in Naples are stunningly beautiful. Perhaps Baroque architecture and art works best on the scale of a church or chapel, but is OTT in a Cathedral.Leon said:
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedralsStuartinromford said:
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg0 -
To be fair that is exactly what people are asking for when they say they want a ceasefire. They may think they want something that encompases both sides but that is never going to happen. In reality they are just asking for Israel to stop bombing Gaza.Foxy said:
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?biggles said:
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.1 -
Def agree about Kenwood. Took the bus to Hampstead for a walk around the heath and its environs. Chanced across Kenwood and was amazed at its contents. Apparently whoever left it to the nation, or whatever, made it a condition that access should be free. As its so out of the way it isn't mobbed out which it would surely be if it was near the centre of town. Lovely local people vounteering as guides there as well - part of the charm.Leon said:
Yes it’s charming. London is blessed with quite a few places like that. The Dulwich picture gallery. Kenwood house. Hampton court has some fine paintings - the MantegnasBurgessian said:
The Wallace Collection is rather nice. It's free and, when I've been there, not too busy either. Not claiming its the best in the world, or even in London, but it's well worth a visit. And it has The Laughing Cavalier and A Dance to the Music of Time which ain't bad.Leon said:
Well for a start I would dispute that the Gulbenkian is small, which is what we were arguing about? The best small museum?Nigelb said:.
That's from their Chinese porcelain collection, btw.Nigelb said:
Says you.Leon said:
No. Absurd American biasNigelb said:
The Gulbenkian then.rcs1000 said:
Well, that's a great PB question.Benpointer said:
Its focus is a big plus imo. Too many art galleries try to cover far too much, and do it poorly.Leon said:
No, absurdBenpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It only has Dutch golden age art, really. Which js amazing but rather limiting…
It is one of the finest SMALL museums in the world
I may be biased by my love of the Dutch Golden Age, of course.
What are the best *small* art galleries in the world?
The requirement being that you can see all the exhibits in an hour.
I would nominate the Hammer in Los Angeles, with an honourable mention for the Santa Barbara Museum of Art.
Confine yourself to the paintings, and you could do that.
The Courtauld beats all of those
Elsewhere in the building ..masterpieces by western European artists such as Domenico Ghirlandaio, Rubens, Rembrandt, Rodin, Carpeaux, Houdon, Renoir, Dierick Bouts, Vittore Carpaccio, Cima da Conegliano, Van Dyck, Corot, Degas, Nattier, George Romney, Stefan Lochner, Maurice-Quentin de La Tour, Édouard Manet, Henri Fantin-Latour, Claude Monet, Jean-François Millet, Sir Edward Burne-Jones, Thomas Gainsborough, Joseph Mallord William Turner, Jean-Honoré Fragonard, Giovanni Battista Moroni, Frans Hals, Ruisdael, Boucher, Largillière, Andrea della Robbia, Pisanello, Jean-Baptiste Pigalle, Antonio Rossellino, André-Charles Boulle ,Charles Cressent, Oeben, Riesener, Antoine-Sébastien Durand, Charles Spire, Jean Deforges, François-Thomas Germain...
Are you thinking of the modern art building next door, Leon ?
It is a splendid museum but it is fairly massive IIRC
Whereas the Courtauld is small but exquisitely formed and has three of the most famous paintings in the entire world
The Bar at the Folies Bergere - Manet
Self Portrait with Bandaged Ear - Van Gogh
Adam and Eve - Cranach
And you can whizz through the rest in an hour or two
Not world class art galleries but possessing a couple of world class paintings1 -
Well it's hard not to see how Labour aren't associated with the Palestinians. It will probably shift some votes the other way . But over all I agree it wont impact much this time round, the fun will probably be the next election after that.Foxy said:On topic, I don't think this will hurt Starmer for the election. Most Britons sympathise with both sides equally, and the Tories favour the Israelis more clearly than Labour. A few Corbynites and other anti-semites might be put off by Starmer, but it ain't going to shift much votes.
0 -
Because I assume no one is silly enough to entertain the thought that Hamas would respect one.Foxy said:
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?biggles said:
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.0 -
It’s not just Englandboulay said:
I found exactly the same. I love English Gothic cathedrals (no slight against any other UK countries as haven’t been to any of their cathedrals), their scale and general beauty and the settings are usually wonderful with the cathedral closes.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
I’ve always been a bit disappointed with the continental equivalents and I have put it down to, counterintuitively, the plainness of the interiors of the English ones. It’s like seeing a skeleton of a blue whale rather than a scale model of it with skin. The bones and the intricacy of construction are there in all their glory and not hidden by a riot of coloured columns and paintings.
I think if the Parthenon was complete it would be a more beautiful object in its stripped back, weathered current look rather than a riot of colour.
Kirkwall Cathedral in the Orkneys is AMAZING. Absolutely spiritual - and beautiful - and strange
Irish churches are notably disappointing - with some rare medieval exceptions - Kilfenora in the Burren is wild0 -
I haven't called for one, mostly because as an anonymous doctor 3000 miles away I think neither Hamas nor the IDF are likely to listen to my call, but clearly ceasefires are bilateral.Richard_Tyndall said:
To be fair that is exactly what people are asking for when they say they want a ceasefire. They may think they want something that encompases both sides but that is never going to happen. In reality they are just asking for Israel to stop bombing Gaza.Foxy said:
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?biggles said:
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.2 -
Pakistan are often the most fun cricket team to watch because they're so erratic. Rubbish one moment, brilliant the next. And they've always been like that.0
-
Now is probably the best time - possibly ever - for a Xi to launch his invasion of Taiwan. During the general global confusion.
I assume it would be very difficult for them to do so by surprise though.0 -
Does ending apartheid equate to abolishing the state of Israel in this case?kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine0 -
Due to the 150 miles of Ocean and the fact that Taiwan has submarines, F16s and a really well trained and equipped military?TimS said:Now is probably the best time - possibly ever - for a Xi to launch his invasion of Taiwan. During the general global confusion.
I assume it would be very difficult for them to do so by surprise though.
Yes.2 -
Yeah, pb.com gets quite weird at the start of a war. Or when there is not a war on at all to be fair.Foxy said:
I haven't called for one, mostly because as an anonymous doctor 3000 miles away I think neither Hamas nor the IDF are likely to listen to my call, but clearly ceasefires are bilateral.Richard_Tyndall said:
To be fair that is exactly what people are asking for when they say they want a ceasefire. They may think they want something that encompases both sides but that is never going to happen. In reality they are just asking for Israel to stop bombing Gaza.Foxy said:
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?biggles said:
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
For some posters everything has to be said as if we were the PM addressing the nation rather than nerds talking amongst ourselves.2 -
One can deplore how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians on the West Bank, without wishing their destruction.williamglenn said:
Does ending apartheid equate to abolishing the state of Israel in this case?kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine3 -
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
0 -
The 2008 Hamas-Israel ceasefire was reasonably well observed by both sides, though Hamas had to force Islamic Jihad to ceasefire. It was brought to an end by the Israelis mounting a ground incursion.biggles said:
Because I assume no one is silly enough to entertain the thought that Hamas would respect one.Foxy said:
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?biggles said:
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Israel–Hamas_ceasefire2 -
Yes you could well be right. See my prior remark about St Paul’s. Wren did some brilliant churches but scaled up to cathedral size all you get is the grandiosity and not the godlinessSean_F said:
OTOH, the Church of St. Blaise in Dubrovnik, and Certosa San Martino in Naples are stunningly beautiful. Perhaps Baroque architecture and art works best on the scale of a church or chapel, but is OTT in a Cathedral.Leon said:
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. Controversial take: Catholicism ruins a lot of great Catholic cathedralsStuartinromford said:
Relative lack of Catholic Tat? Seville always gave me a degree of spiritual indigestion.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
In France it is often the revolution that is to blame. It swept away so much - it scraped away the patina of smoke and time and worship which makes a great moving cathedral
Weirdly, Hagia Sophia DOES have that buzz despite being a museum for a century and now a mosque
Ditto the orthodox churches of Greece. Some of them are seriously intense. Esp the monasteries of Mount athos. Omg0 -
Bit of a loophole in the cricket rules, where a ball flicking the pad can't be changed by the third umpire from being a wide to not being one.0
-
A
Agree about St Paul's. Utterly dead. The great stuff is round the corner. In the square mile of the City are 39 or so CoE churches, nearly all very good, some great, bursting with atmosphere. St Mary Abchurch, St Magnus Martyr, St James Garlickhithe, St Stephen Walbrook, St Barts Smithfield and loads more.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos3 -
But as we have discussed it won’t be a mad outright invasion it will be a blockadercs1000 said:
Due to the 150 miles of Ocean and the fact that Taiwan has submarines, F16s and a really well trained and equipped military?TimS said:Now is probably the best time - possibly ever - for a Xi to launch his invasion of Taiwan. During the general global confusion.
I assume it would be very difficult for them to do so by surprise though.
Yes.0 -
He couldn't lend it to me could he? Irish passports are like gold dust. Lucky boy. I bet he was livid with you.Alanbrooke said:
He's getting married next year to a francaise. But his Irish Passport lets him stroll about.Roger said:
You let him live in an EU City after contributing to our being black-balled!!Alanbrooke said:
Thanks, Ill do that, its a short walk from where my son lives.Gardenwalker said:
Go to the Musee Carnavalet.Alanbrooke said:
When I went it was extremely busy, I wished I had looked at the guides to see if there was a slack time. If you can clear the tourists there's more to look at.Benpointer said:
I have yet to see the Sainte Chappelle (the lift has been broken every time we've tried - I mean, I am grateful and surprised there even is a lift but it would be nice for it to work). Having studied gothic architecture in an evening class, It really would like to see the example for myself.Alanbrooke said:
Ive been to Paris quite a lot and my son has just moved there. Last time I did the Sainte Chappelle ( overrated ) and Notre Dame. ND was really good as they had an exhibition on the restoration which was really well presented. The other thing I have been advised to see is the catacombs not sure if they will be as good as the hype.Richard_Tyndall said:
I wouldn't say it is the only thing worth visiting but it is certainly the shining gem. I much prefer the Musee D'Orsay to the Louvre.Alanbrooke said:
Musee D'Orsay for me, its about the only thing worth visiting in Paris.Benpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It's a fine gallery in a nice area. I'm sure you'll have been to the musee d'orsay but worth a visit every time you go. One of my favourites
It's funny to think there was a time when English passports were just as valued. My ex went to live in Beausoleil and after overstaying her 90 days by several months can't come back because she fears they wont let her back again0 -
You’ve got a 2nd home in Villefranche sur Mer. Where you spend much time (and good luck to you, it’s a lovely part of the world) - surely you have claimed French rights of residency?Roger said:
He couldn't lend it to me could he? Irish passports are like gold dust. Lucky boy. I bet he was livid with you.Alanbrooke said:
He's getting married next year to a francaise. But his Irish Passport lets him stroll about.Roger said:
You let him live in an EU City after contributing to our being black-balled!!Alanbrooke said:
Thanks, Ill do that, its a short walk from where my son lives.Gardenwalker said:
Go to the Musee Carnavalet.Alanbrooke said:
When I went it was extremely busy, I wished I had looked at the guides to see if there was a slack time. If you can clear the tourists there's more to look at.Benpointer said:
I have yet to see the Sainte Chappelle (the lift has been broken every time we've tried - I mean, I am grateful and surprised there even is a lift but it would be nice for it to work). Having studied gothic architecture in an evening class, It really would like to see the example for myself.Alanbrooke said:
Ive been to Paris quite a lot and my son has just moved there. Last time I did the Sainte Chappelle ( overrated ) and Notre Dame. ND was really good as they had an exhibition on the restoration which was really well presented. The other thing I have been advised to see is the catacombs not sure if they will be as good as the hype.Richard_Tyndall said:
I wouldn't say it is the only thing worth visiting but it is certainly the shining gem. I much prefer the Musee D'Orsay to the Louvre.Alanbrooke said:
Musee D'Orsay for me, its about the only thing worth visiting in Paris.Benpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It's a fine gallery in a nice area. I'm sure you'll have been to the musee d'orsay but worth a visit every time you go. One of my favourites
It's funny to think there was a time when English passports were just as valued. My ex went to live in Beausoleil and after overstaying her 90 days by several months can't come back because she fears they wont let her back again0 -
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey0 -
St bartholonew is phenomenal. Christ church Spitalfields is wrenchingly good. I prayed on the morning of the last day of my Old Bailey rape trial at St Sepulchre without Newgate, as have many many people before me, for many centuries - the church of Newgate jailalgarkirk said:A
Agree about St Paul's. Utterly dead. The great stuff is round the corner. In the square mile of the City are 39 or so CoE churches, nearly all very good, some great, bursting with atmosphere. St Mary Abchurch, St Magnus Martyr, St James Garlickhithe, St Stephen Walbrook, St Barts Smithfield and loads more.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos0 -
But the question is what abolishing 'apartheid' means in practice.rcs1000 said:
One can deplore how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians on the West Bank, without wishing their destruction.williamglenn said:
Does ending apartheid equate to abolishing the state of Israel in this case?kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine1 -
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos0 -
Maybe there should be a new rule saying you can't visit a foreign country unless you've visited at least 5 British cathedrals first.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos0 -
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.Burgessian said:
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.0 -
-
It was Bush and the neocons with Blair puppying along. All opposed by the Left. Compared to that sort of thing I think the selective demo'ing of various people is rather a 2nd order issue.Alanbrooke said:
Well that's Mr Blair for you. On the other hand I dont see your big demos for Uighirs, Christians in Pakistan, whites in Zimbabwe etc. I suppose it might be different if they were countries run by jews.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine0 -
There are still White people living in South Africa.williamglenn said:
Does ending apartheid equate to abolishing the state of Israel in this case?kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine0 -
If Hamas won't respect a ceasefire then Israel surely have nothing to lose by calling a ceasefire knowing Hamas will break it anyway. An easy propaganda victory. But Israel doesn't want a ceasefire.biggles said:
Because I assume no one is silly enough to entertain the thought that Hamas would respect one.Foxy said:
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?biggles said:
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.2 -
I have a french guy lives across the street from me who has exactly the same problem.Roger said:
He couldn't lend it to me could he? Irish passports are like gold dust. Lucky boy. I bet he was livid with you.Alanbrooke said:
He's getting married next year to a francaise. But his Irish Passport lets him stroll about.Roger said:
You let him live in an EU City after contributing to our being black-balled!!Alanbrooke said:
Thanks, Ill do that, its a short walk from where my son lives.Gardenwalker said:
Go to the Musee Carnavalet.Alanbrooke said:
When I went it was extremely busy, I wished I had looked at the guides to see if there was a slack time. If you can clear the tourists there's more to look at.Benpointer said:
I have yet to see the Sainte Chappelle (the lift has been broken every time we've tried - I mean, I am grateful and surprised there even is a lift but it would be nice for it to work). Having studied gothic architecture in an evening class, It really would like to see the example for myself.Alanbrooke said:
Ive been to Paris quite a lot and my son has just moved there. Last time I did the Sainte Chappelle ( overrated ) and Notre Dame. ND was really good as they had an exhibition on the restoration which was really well presented. The other thing I have been advised to see is the catacombs not sure if they will be as good as the hype.Richard_Tyndall said:
I wouldn't say it is the only thing worth visiting but it is certainly the shining gem. I much prefer the Musee D'Orsay to the Louvre.Alanbrooke said:
Musee D'Orsay for me, its about the only thing worth visiting in Paris.Benpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It's a fine gallery in a nice area. I'm sure you'll have been to the musee d'orsay but worth a visit every time you go. One of my favourites
It's funny to think there was a time when English passports were just as valued. My ex went to live in Beausoleil and after overstaying her 90 days by several months can't come back because she fears they wont let her back again
On the other hand since you now have time on your hands could I suggest "On va tout peter"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blow_It_to_Bits
It's a docufilm set in a factory in the arse end of France. I used to run it and it's the only film where I know all the cast
- nutters to a man.
It won the Palme D'Or.
0 -
Wow.
That was some cricket match.
And something weird happened.
South Africa couldn't go through with the choke.0 -
Just imagine what Ely Cathedral must have looked like before the fens were drained. On its island amid the waters.ydoethur said:
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.Burgessian said:
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.2 -
Ooh. One I’ve missed! I’ve never been to Lichfield! Seems like I mustydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey
Agree Winchester. Outside not so impressive but that astonishing nave makes up for it. The cloisters at Gloucester are sublime
I love Tewkesbury too. Malmesbury and Shrewsbury are likewise resonant
One of THE most amazingly spiritual spaces in the whole world is St John’s chapel inside the white tower of the Tower of London. I believe English kings and queens are meant to do vigils there prior to coronation1 -
English passports would be very valuable.Roger said:
He couldn't lend it to me could he? Irish passports are like gold dust. Lucky boy. I bet he was livid with you.Alanbrooke said:
He's getting married next year to a francaise. But his Irish Passport lets him stroll about.Roger said:
You let him live in an EU City after contributing to our being black-balled!!Alanbrooke said:
Thanks, Ill do that, its a short walk from where my son lives.Gardenwalker said:
Go to the Musee Carnavalet.Alanbrooke said:
When I went it was extremely busy, I wished I had looked at the guides to see if there was a slack time. If you can clear the tourists there's more to look at.Benpointer said:
I have yet to see the Sainte Chappelle (the lift has been broken every time we've tried - I mean, I am grateful and surprised there even is a lift but it would be nice for it to work). Having studied gothic architecture in an evening class, It really would like to see the example for myself.Alanbrooke said:
Ive been to Paris quite a lot and my son has just moved there. Last time I did the Sainte Chappelle ( overrated ) and Notre Dame. ND was really good as they had an exhibition on the restoration which was really well presented. The other thing I have been advised to see is the catacombs not sure if they will be as good as the hype.Richard_Tyndall said:
I wouldn't say it is the only thing worth visiting but it is certainly the shining gem. I much prefer the Musee D'Orsay to the Louvre.Alanbrooke said:
Musee D'Orsay for me, its about the only thing worth visiting in Paris.Benpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It's a fine gallery in a nice area. I'm sure you'll have been to the musee d'orsay but worth a visit every time you go. One of my favourites
It's funny to think there was a time when English passports were just as valued. My ex went to live in Beausoleil and after overstaying her 90 days by several months can't come back because she fears they wont let her back again0 -
Maybe we should just sort our own shit out first. Theres enough of it.kinabalu said:
It was Bush and the neocons with Blair puppying along. All opposed by the Left. Compared to that sort of thing I think the selective demo'ing of various people is rather a 2nd order issue.Alanbrooke said:
Well that's Mr Blair for you. On the other hand I dont see your big demos for Uighirs, Christians in Pakistan, whites in Zimbabwe etc. I suppose it might be different if they were countries run by jews.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine1 -
Lichfield is less than two hours from London by train and is an extremely rare more or less unspoilt Georgian city.Leon said:
Ooh. One I’ve missed! I’ve never been to Lichfield! Seems like I mustydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey
Agree Winchester. Outside not so impressive but that astonishing nave makes up for it. The cloisters at Gloucester are sublime
I love Tewkesbury too. Malmesbury and Shrewsbury are likewise resonant
One of THE most amazingly spiritual spaces in the whole world is St John’s chapel inside the white tower of the Tower of London. I believe English kings and queens are meant to do vigils there prior to coronation
Plus it has the Cathedral.
Definitely well worth a visit.0 -
Oh, ok, but at this point all we are saying is “wouldn’t it be nice if there was peace, “which everyone agrees with.kamski said:
If Hamas won't respect a ceasefire then Israel surely have nothing to lose by calling a ceasefire knowing Hamas will break it anyway. An easy propaganda victory. But Israel doesn't want a ceasefire.biggles said:
Because I assume no one is silly enough to entertain the thought that Hamas would respect one.Foxy said:
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?biggles said:
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
0 -
Was in Durham a couple of weeks ago:Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
2 -
I am looking forward to a day from hell tomorrow. An early start then 2 longish flights home with the family, and I’ve just come down with a very violent bout of diarrhoea of the sort that drains you physically and gives a constant nausea just short of the cathartic moment of vomiting (so far).
At least it’s not on wizzair, but Turkish with its world class food offering is going to be wasted on me.0 -
On the rest of your comment - perhaps we should add Hexham, Beverley and St Mary Redcliffe in Bristol?Leon said:
Ooh. One I’ve missed! I’ve never been to Lichfield! Seems like I mustydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey
Agree Winchester. Outside not so impressive but that astonishing nave makes up for it. The cloisters at Gloucester are sublime
I love Tewkesbury too. Malmesbury and Shrewsbury are likewise resonant
One of THE most amazingly spiritual spaces in the whole world is St John’s chapel inside the white tower of the Tower of London. I believe English kings and queens are meant to do vigils there prior to coronation0 -
The second home makes no difference. As for the rest it's complicated. Ironically Monaco is easier,Leon said:
You’ve got a 2nd home in Villefranche sur Mer. Where you spend much time (and good luck to you, it’s a lovely part of the world) - surely you have claimed French rights of residency?Roger said:
He couldn't lend it to me could he? Irish passports are like gold dust. Lucky boy. I bet he was livid with you.Alanbrooke said:
He's getting married next year to a francaise. But his Irish Passport lets him stroll about.Roger said:
You let him live in an EU City after contributing to our being black-balled!!Alanbrooke said:
Thanks, Ill do that, its a short walk from where my son lives.Gardenwalker said:
Go to the Musee Carnavalet.Alanbrooke said:
When I went it was extremely busy, I wished I had looked at the guides to see if there was a slack time. If you can clear the tourists there's more to look at.Benpointer said:
I have yet to see the Sainte Chappelle (the lift has been broken every time we've tried - I mean, I am grateful and surprised there even is a lift but it would be nice for it to work). Having studied gothic architecture in an evening class, It really would like to see the example for myself.Alanbrooke said:
Ive been to Paris quite a lot and my son has just moved there. Last time I did the Sainte Chappelle ( overrated ) and Notre Dame. ND was really good as they had an exhibition on the restoration which was really well presented. The other thing I have been advised to see is the catacombs not sure if they will be as good as the hype.Richard_Tyndall said:
I wouldn't say it is the only thing worth visiting but it is certainly the shining gem. I much prefer the Musee D'Orsay to the Louvre.Alanbrooke said:
Musee D'Orsay for me, its about the only thing worth visiting in Paris.Benpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It's a fine gallery in a nice area. I'm sure you'll have been to the musee d'orsay but worth a visit every time you go. One of my favourites
It's funny to think there was a time when English passports were just as valued. My ex went to live in Beausoleil and after overstaying her 90 days by several months can't come back because she fears they wont let her back again0 -
It also has Michael Fabricant.ydoethur said:
Lichfield is less than two hours from London by train and is an extremely rare more or less unspoilt Georgian city.Leon said:
Ooh. One I’ve missed! I’ve never been to Lichfield! Seems like I mustydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey
Agree Winchester. Outside not so impressive but that astonishing nave makes up for it. The cloisters at Gloucester are sublime
I love Tewkesbury too. Malmesbury and Shrewsbury are likewise resonant
One of THE most amazingly spiritual spaces in the whole world is St John’s chapel inside the white tower of the Tower of London. I believe English kings and queens are meant to do vigils there prior to coronation
Plus it has the Cathedral.
What's not to like?0 -
Yes if held at gunpoint I’d have to go for either Lincoln or Durhamydoethur said:
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.Burgessian said:
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.
And in the end it might be Lincoln
This should be done to every British schoolchild aged about 16. They should be held at gunpoint and forced to choose the best English cathedral. And if they say something stupid like “I hate cathedrals!” Or “I’ve no idea” or “er, Paris” then they are thrown into the Thames at Gallions Reach0 -
…
Winchester isn’t “pretty” from the outside but it’s an absolutely imposing monster. It’s like a Springbok forward compared to the elegant French winger that is Ely or Salisbury.Leon said:
Ooh. One I’ve missed! I’ve never been to Lichfield! Seems like I mustydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey
Agree Winchester. Outside not so impressive but that astonishing nave makes up for it. The cloisters at Gloucester are sublime
I love Tewkesbury too. Malmesbury and Shrewsbury are likewise resonant
One of THE most amazingly spiritual spaces in the whole world is St John’s chapel inside the white tower of the Tower of London. I believe English kings and queens are meant to do vigils there prior to coronation
The thing I love about it is the fact that the transepts stayed Romanesque so you can see the change of styles in one place and see the beauty but the different effects of both on light and space by moving a few feet one way or another.
1 -
I think the Russians do such things.Leon said:
Yes if held at gunpoint I’d have to go for either Lincoln or Durhamydoethur said:
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.Burgessian said:
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.
And in the end it might be Lincoln
This should be done to every British schoolchild aged about 16. They should be held at gunpoint and forced to choose the best English cathedral. And if they say something stupid like “I hate cathedrals!” Or “I’ve no idea” or “er, Paris” then they are thrown into the Thames at Gallions Reach0 -
You can still get that floating effect on a cold misty day - which are not unknown in the fenlands - the cathedral rises above the grey oceanic swirlBurgessian said:
Just imagine what Ely Cathedral must have looked like before the fens were drained. On its island amid the waters.ydoethur said:
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.Burgessian said:
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.0 -
Feel bad for Pakistan, the match was decided by the umpire's decision on the final lbw appeal. Not that the decision was wrong but the umpire could have gone either way thereydoethur said:Wow.
That was some cricket match.
And something weird happened.
South Africa couldn't go through with the choke.4 -
I wouldn't have thought so. Although I was more referencing the SA original version of it in my comment. But no, surely a nation doesn't have to oppress part of its population to be viable. It might seem impossible now but eventually there'll be a resolution whereby there's an Israel and a Palestine, both of them free from the river to the sea. Although not literally. That was a turn of phrase I put in because it sounds good and it rhymes.williamglenn said:
Does ending apartheid equate to abolishing the state of Israel in this case?kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
What do you think about all this anyway? I like your trappy questions but sometimes thirst for more.0 -
But I have friends in this situation. All you had to do was reside in villefranche for a year before Brexit then you got residency AIUIRoger said:
The second home makes no difference. As for the rest it's complicated. Ironically Monaco is easier,Leon said:
You’ve got a 2nd home in Villefranche sur Mer. Where you spend much time (and good luck to you, it’s a lovely part of the world) - surely you have claimed French rights of residency?Roger said:
He couldn't lend it to me could he? Irish passports are like gold dust. Lucky boy. I bet he was livid with you.Alanbrooke said:
He's getting married next year to a francaise. But his Irish Passport lets him stroll about.Roger said:
You let him live in an EU City after contributing to our being black-balled!!Alanbrooke said:
Thanks, Ill do that, its a short walk from where my son lives.Gardenwalker said:
Go to the Musee Carnavalet.Alanbrooke said:
When I went it was extremely busy, I wished I had looked at the guides to see if there was a slack time. If you can clear the tourists there's more to look at.Benpointer said:
I have yet to see the Sainte Chappelle (the lift has been broken every time we've tried - I mean, I am grateful and surprised there even is a lift but it would be nice for it to work). Having studied gothic architecture in an evening class, It really would like to see the example for myself.Alanbrooke said:
Ive been to Paris quite a lot and my son has just moved there. Last time I did the Sainte Chappelle ( overrated ) and Notre Dame. ND was really good as they had an exhibition on the restoration which was really well presented. The other thing I have been advised to see is the catacombs not sure if they will be as good as the hype.Richard_Tyndall said:
I wouldn't say it is the only thing worth visiting but it is certainly the shining gem. I much prefer the Musee D'Orsay to the Louvre.Alanbrooke said:
Musee D'Orsay for me, its about the only thing worth visiting in Paris.Benpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It's a fine gallery in a nice area. I'm sure you'll have been to the musee d'orsay but worth a visit every time you go. One of my favourites
It's funny to think there was a time when English passports were just as valued. My ex went to live in Beausoleil and after overstaying her 90 days by several months can't come back because she fears they wont let her back again
Alternatively given that you are self employed you could get a digital nomad visa in say Spain or Portugal or just buy a bloody house in Malta or Cyprus and you get an EU passport
For rich people - eg you - this is not hard to work around0 -
Coventry is very poignant with the new one next to the bombed ruins . Also Leicester deserves a mention as it has Richard the Third in it!ydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey0 -
Indeed. Especially if one is in need of a yellow mop to clean the naveBurgessian said:
It also has Michael Fabricant.ydoethur said:
Lichfield is less than two hours from London by train and is an extremely rare more or less unspoilt Georgian city.Leon said:
Ooh. One I’ve missed! I’ve never been to Lichfield! Seems like I mustydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey
Agree Winchester. Outside not so impressive but that astonishing nave makes up for it. The cloisters at Gloucester are sublime
I love Tewkesbury too. Malmesbury and Shrewsbury are likewise resonant
One of THE most amazingly spiritual spaces in the whole world is St John’s chapel inside the white tower of the Tower of London. I believe English kings and queens are meant to do vigils there prior to coronation
Plus it has the Cathedral.
What's not to like?0 -
Haven't we got enough people arguing about children being killed on this thread?state_go_away said:
Coventry is very poignant with the new one next to the bombed ruins . Also Leicester deserves a mention as it has Richard the Third in it!ydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey0 -
I'm not a nerd. I'm a hard left social democrat.noneoftheabove said:
Yeah, pb.com gets quite weird at the start of a war. Or when there is not a war on at all to be fair.Foxy said:
I haven't called for one, mostly because as an anonymous doctor 3000 miles away I think neither Hamas nor the IDF are likely to listen to my call, but clearly ceasefires are bilateral.Richard_Tyndall said:
To be fair that is exactly what people are asking for when they say they want a ceasefire. They may think they want something that encompases both sides but that is never going to happen. In reality they are just asking for Israel to stop bombing Gaza.Foxy said:
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?biggles said:
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
For some posters everything has to be said as if we were the PM addressing the nation rather than nerds talking amongst ourselves.0 -
Years ago I went to a fantastic performance of Antigone at the Greek theatre in Siracusa. It was June, the weather was gorgeous, we brought cushions and watched this wonderful drama.
Then as it was getting dark and Creon was wailing and rending his garments in the final scene - "Non ho nessuno. Non son' nessuno." (I have no-one. I am no-one) - the audience decided it was time for the play to end, applauded wildly and got up to pass the rest of the night in Siracusa's many excellent bars and restaurants.
0 -
It does at the moment. Give me time.Burgessian said:
It also has Michael Fabricant.ydoethur said:
Lichfield is less than two hours from London by train and is an extremely rare more or less unspoilt Georgian city.Leon said:
Ooh. One I’ve missed! I’ve never been to Lichfield! Seems like I mustydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey
Agree Winchester. Outside not so impressive but that astonishing nave makes up for it. The cloisters at Gloucester are sublime
I love Tewkesbury too. Malmesbury and Shrewsbury are likewise resonant
One of THE most amazingly spiritual spaces in the whole world is St John’s chapel inside the white tower of the Tower of London. I believe English kings and queens are meant to do vigils there prior to coronation
Plus it has the Cathedral.
What's not to like?0 -
Also has that amazing history. Jane Austen buried in the nave and those bone boxes containing king Cnut and various Anglo Saxon kings and queensboulay said:…
Winchester isn’t “pretty” from the outside but it’s an absolutely imposing monster. It’s like a Springbok forward compared to the elegant French winger that is Ely or Salisbury.Leon said:
Ooh. One I’ve missed! I’ve never been to Lichfield! Seems like I mustydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey
Agree Winchester. Outside not so impressive but that astonishing nave makes up for it. The cloisters at Gloucester are sublime
I love Tewkesbury too. Malmesbury and Shrewsbury are likewise resonant
One of THE most amazingly spiritual spaces in the whole world is St John’s chapel inside the white tower of the Tower of London. I believe English kings and queens are meant to do vigils there prior to coronation
The thing I love about it is the fact that the transepts stayed Romanesque so you can see the change of styles in one place and see the beauty but the different effects of both on light and space by moving a few feet one way or another.0 -
The view of Durham Cathedral from the railway station (or indeed a passing train) is something else.Leon said:
Yes if held at gunpoint I’d have to go for either Lincoln or Durhamydoethur said:
It's the setting as well as the Cathedral. Like Salisbury and Norwich rolled into one stuck on top of a ginormous hill rising out of a massive plain.Burgessian said:
Clifton Taylor considered Lincoln to be numero uno. And, as I recall, it is truly magnificent. And it has the imp.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
It's absolutely exceptional. What Cathedral in the world can rival that? Ely would come closest in England but it isn't close.
Plus, it's a magnificent building.
And in the end it might be Lincoln
This should be done to every British schoolchild aged about 16. They should be held at gunpoint and forced to choose the best English cathedral. And if they say something stupid like “I hate cathedrals!” Or “I’ve no idea” or “er, Paris” then they are thrown into the Thames at Gallions Reach
BTW - St Magnus Cathedral in Kirkwall was, I seem to remember reading, built by the people responsible for Durham.
And, indeed, it's just like a mini-Durham.
Finest ecclesiastical building in Scotland. In fact, drop the "ecclesiastical".
1 -
On the one hand we have a civilised, modern democracy that respects human rights and has functioning courts of law.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
On the other we have a fascist dictatorship, which deliberately murders children, rapes women, executes gays and hasn't held an election in nearly twenty years.
There's an obvious good guy and bad guy here, it just doesn't suit Roger's agenda.0 -
Vanilla PURGE0
-
…
The Anthony Gormley sculpture, Sound II, in the crypt is special, if you catch it at the right level of flood it appears to be standing on the water.Leon said:
But I have friends in this situation. All you had to do was reside in villefranche for a year before Brexit then you got residencyRoger said:
The second home makes no difference. As for the rest it's complicated. Ironically Monaco is easier,Leon said:
You’ve got a 2nd home in Villefranche sur Mer. Where you spend much time (and good luck to you, it’s a lovely part of the world) - surely you have claimed French rights of residency?Roger said:
He couldn't lend it to me could he? Irish passports are like gold dust. Lucky boy. I bet he was livid with you.Alanbrooke said:
He's getting married next year to a francaise. But his Irish Passport lets him stroll about.Roger said:
You let him live in an EU City after contributing to our being black-balled!!Alanbrooke said:
Thanks, Ill do that, its a short walk from where my son lives.Gardenwalker said:
Go to the Musee Carnavalet.Alanbrooke said:
When I went it was extremely busy, I wished I had looked at the guides to see if there was a slack time. If you can clear the tourists there's more to look at.Benpointer said:
I have yet to see the Sainte Chappelle (the lift has been broken every time we've tried - I mean, I am grateful and surprised there even is a lift but it would be nice for it to work). Having studied gothic architecture in an evening class, It really would like to see the example for myself.Alanbrooke said:
Ive been to Paris quite a lot and my son has just moved there. Last time I did the Sainte Chappelle ( overrated ) and Notre Dame. ND was really good as they had an exhibition on the restoration which was really well presented. The other thing I have been advised to see is the catacombs not sure if they will be as good as the hype.Richard_Tyndall said:
I wouldn't say it is the only thing worth visiting but it is certainly the shining gem. I much prefer the Musee D'Orsay to the Louvre.Alanbrooke said:
Musee D'Orsay for me, its about the only thing worth visiting in Paris.Benpointer said:O/T The Mauritshuis in The Hague must surely be the finest art gallery in the world. A perfect gem.
It's a fine gallery in a nice area. I'm sure you'll have been to the musee d'orsay but worth a visit every time you go. One of my favourites
It's funny to think there was a time when English passports were just as valued. My ex went to live in Beausoleil and after overstaying her 90 days by several months can't come back because she fears they wont let her back again
Also has that amazing history. Jane Austen buried in the nave and those bone boxes containing king Cnut and various Anglo Saxon kings and queensboulay said:…
Winchester isn’t “pretty” from the outside but it’s an absolutely imposing monster. It’s like a Springbok forward compared to the elegant French winger that is Ely or Salisbury.Leon said:
Ooh. One I’ve missed! I’ve never been to Lichfield! Seems like I mustydoethur said:
Yes, we'll count Kings.Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos
Some other good ones
Lichfield
St David's
Gloucester
Winchester
York
Norwich
Rochester is rather good - I prefer it to Canterbury which I found rather underwhelming too.
If we're counting King's I feel we should also mention:
Tewkesbury Abbey
Agree Winchester. Outside not so impressive but that astonishing nave makes up for it. The cloisters at Gloucester are sublime
I love Tewkesbury too. Malmesbury and Shrewsbury are likewise resonant
One of THE most amazingly spiritual spaces in the whole world is St John’s chapel inside the white tower of the Tower of London. I believe English kings and queens are meant to do vigils there prior to coronation
The thing I love about it is the fact that the transepts stayed Romanesque so you can see the change of styles in one place and see the beauty but the different effects of both on light and space by moving a few feet one way or another.
3 -
Beautiful photos. You captured it. That imposing monumental quality. Don’t know anywhere else like itSunil_Prasannan said:
Was in Durham a couple of weeks ago:Leon said:
My faves are the obvious onesBurgessian said:
A nice retirement hobby is visiting England's cathedrals. So far I've only managed Ripon which is hardly the most celebrated - barely rates a mention in the Alec Clifton Taylor guide - but while small is "perfectly formed". The west front has rather spendid Early English lancet windows, and it possesses an Anglo-Saxon crypt. Worth a look.Leon said:Here’s a jingoistic architectural opinion
British churches and cathedrals - if old enough - are generally the most numinous, mystical and spiritual inside
I have no idea why this is. But if you go in a great British cathedral (generally gothic - but there are exceptions like Durham) you get an oooooh spine tingling quality that is all too often absent elsewhere
Eg I’ve just been in Siracusa’s cathedral - which is half built out of a Doric Greek temple ffs - yet it didn’t particularly move me. I find the same in Spanish French German cathedrals. Most but not all Italian cathedrals
And this is despite the fact Britain is a much less religious culture
Maybe it is the northern light? The accretion of time without revolutions? The patina?
You DO get the same buzz in some Eastern European and Russian cathedrals - they can be intense
Oh,just remembered, visited Newcastle-upon-Tyne cathedral too. A promoted parish church but still good value. A tremendous Jacobean monument for instance. Oh, and take the Metro to the central station. The walk to the cathedral is a delight.
Ely
Wells
Lincoln
Durham
Salisbury
King’s College Cambridge if it counts?
Disappointing
Canterbury (too much going on?)
Guildford (lol)
Truro (too modern)
And - controversial take here - St Paul’s London. I love its noble exterior rising over the city but inside it has zero atmos3 -
What a perverted logic. Hamas started the fight, and Israel haven't got in their retaliation yet.kamski said:
If Hamas won't respect a ceasefire then Israel surely have nothing to lose by calling a ceasefire knowing Hamas will break it anyway. An easy propaganda victory. But Israel doesn't want a ceasefire.biggles said:
Because I assume no one is silly enough to entertain the thought that Hamas would respect one.Foxy said:
What makes you say most people want a unilateral ceasefire?biggles said:
Yup. The talk of a “ceasefire” is a good example. In most conflicts when we say “ceasefire” we mean both sides. In this case, people seem to mean unilateral from Israel, and for Israel to just sit there and take continued rocket strikes during it, because it is the baddie and it deserves it.Sean_F said:
In South Africa, there was an obvious good guy, and an obvious bad guy.kinabalu said:
But as imperialisms go I'd say campaigning against apartheid beats invading Iraq.Alanbrooke said:
I'm always fascinated by the way the british Left decides it can willy nilly tell other people how to run their countries . Its just imperialism by other means.Roger said:It will possibly have blown over by then but there are few issues in British and European politics as visceral as apartheid. And since South Africa this is seen (certainly on the left) as the next great injustice.
(This woman on question time speaks for many; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaXNkCfLF6A)
I'm sure Starmer will water down his intemperate comments but if he doesn't there will be a backlash. A lot will depend what happens in the next few months. Blair was able to lose his support in a short time with a wrong decision on Iraq and so could Starmer over Palestine
Despite what Roger and the Corbynistas think, Israel doesn't fill the role of obvious bad guy, nor do the Palestinians fill the role of obvious good guy.
So your logic is that Israel should just have a ceasefire giving Hamas an opportunity to strike them with no recourse? How does that make any sense whatsoever?
Israel should have a ceasefire once Hamas have been destroyed.0 -
The BBC wittering on about Boris joining GB News on the 6pm bulletin is really weird. Is that news worthy? Really? Just ignore GB News chaps unless or until Boris says or does something newsworthy. If anything they were almost advertising it.3
