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Rishi needs to define what Sunak-ism is to stand a chance – politicalbetting.com

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    slade said:

    There are 2 local by-elections today - both in Haringey and both Lab defences. Tomorrow there are Lab defences in Tamworth(!) and Lambeth.

    This is a LOCAL by-election for LOCAL people! There's nothing for YOU here!
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,496

    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    Indeed and one wonders if this could be a trojan for just that eventuality. After all, how on earth does a shopkeeper tell if someone is 45 or 46 when they come to buy cigarettes?
    OTOH smokers do look older than they really are in calendar years, above a certain age.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,635
    Wall to wall awful and it takes real skill to pick out a good bit. But it's a skill I have so ...

    The annual ratchet on buying cigs. Yes. Excellent.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 19,178
    Heh.

    Trying the famous "egg bites" in the air cooker.

    Clearly slightly too much of something, as they went like Marge Simpson's hairdo.
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    Sub optimal day for Lozza Fox.

    He and Calvin Robinson sacked by Wokeist GB News.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,496

    MattW said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    I'm not convinced by one year at a time; 21 now and 25 in 4 years' time would be a better start, perhaps alongside significant price hikes, and followed in due course by making the relevant substances probihibited drugs.
    Why do people insist on sticking their noses in on other people's legal business? Small mindedness and puritanism on steroids.
    Why do people have a problem with programmes to improve health, and prevent those who say "Waah ! Leave me on my own !" imposing unnecessary costs on the Health System?
    According to the anti-smoking lobby ASH, smoking costs the NHS £2.5 billion a year
    According to HMRC smoking raises £8.8 billion a year in tax.

    Your costs argument is bullshit.
    Depends what they'd spend the money on otherwise, mind. Fresh fruit? Alcohol?
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    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,496
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:


    @jamesrbuk

    If it’s true that the government are indeed rushing to sell off the land compulsorily purchased, over years, at HUGE cost, for the sections of HS2 above Crewe, that’s a genuine act of national sabotage – just to make sure a future government can’t override Rishi’s decision.

    Sounds like a possible case for Labour's proposed compulsory purchase/reduction of planning gain windfall policy.

    (Though they were briefing last week that had been de-prioritised.)
    Exactly what I was thinking. All Labour have to do is to make an announcement now.
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    novanova Posts: 525
    MattW said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    I'm not convinced by one year at a time - too complex and pfaffy; 21 now and 25 in 4 years' time would be a better start, perhaps alongside significant price hikes, and followed in due course by making the relevant substances probihibited drugs.

    (If there is no such thing as a minor crime as I just heard, why is he running away from parking enforcement to prevent wheelchair users and others being forced into dangerous traffic?)
    Wouldn't that mean that everyone who is 18-20 now is stuck in an ongoing loop of being able to smoke every few years, and then banned again?
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    boulayboulay Posts: 4,286
    Scott_xP said:


    @jamesrbuk

    If it’s true that the government are indeed rushing to sell off the land compulsorily purchased, over years, at HUGE cost, for the sections of HS2 above Crewe, that’s a genuine act of national sabotage – just to make sure a future government can’t override Rishi’s decision.

    They can just build copies of the Alexandra Road Estate over all the cancelled train lines. Road and parking underneath, cycle and walk on top - transport and housing for a brighter future.


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    Listening to the media it seems there is support with the public in the north

    I would suggest Sunak needs to gather the northern mayors at no 10 to agree the way forward and to have regular meetings

    Where is labour's response ?
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    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    I'm not convinced by one year at a time; 21 now and 25 in 4 years' time would be a better start, perhaps alongside significant price hikes, and followed in due course by making the relevant substances probihibited drugs.
    Why do people insist on sticking their noses in on other people's legal business? Small mindedness and puritanism on steroids.
    Why do people have a problem with programmes to improve health, and prevent those who say "Waah ! Leave me on my own !" imposing unnecessary costs on the Health System?
    According to the anti-smoking lobby ASH, smoking costs the NHS £2.5 billion a year
    According to HMRC smoking raises £8.8 billion a year in tax.

    Your costs argument is bullshit.
    Depends what they'd spend the money on otherwise, mind. Fresh fruit? Alcohol?
    Black market ciggies with the Government getting none of the tax money.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,496

    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party

    Shame. I disagree with him on HS2 but it would have been good to see him make a stand on a point of principle he believes in. He could very easily have quit as a Tory and still continued to do his job as mayor - probably would have got him more support as well.
    Indeed.

    Interesting hatchet job by Jen Williams on the Graun feed - at 11.22

    "Jennifer Williams, the Financial Times’ northern correspondent, explains why people in her region are unlikely to be impressed. There is a long history of the north being promised transport upgrades that never materialise, she says." and she goes on ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/oct/04/hs2-rishi-sunak-manchester-tory-conference-conservative-rail-latest-updates?page=with:block-651d381f8f08297bb3421029#block-651d381f8f08297bb3421029
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,335
    AlistairM said:

    To be fair, someone probably knocked it up in 5 minutes using MS Paint this morning.
    Is Sunak just doing a version of The Apprentice writ large? It could explain a lot.

    Next week he has to design a new soda-pop with a marketing angle.
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    novanova Posts: 525
    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    I am now imagining a 65 year old hanging around outside a newsagent, trying to persuade a passing 70 year old to buy them cigarettes.
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    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:


    @jamesrbuk

    If it’s true that the government are indeed rushing to sell off the land compulsorily purchased, over years, at HUGE cost, for the sections of HS2 above Crewe, that’s a genuine act of national sabotage – just to make sure a future government can’t override Rishi’s decision.

    They can just build copies of the Alexandra Road Estate over all the cancelled train lines. Road and parking underneath, cycle and walk on top - transport and housing for a brighter future.


    Or even the cancelled motorways, like the Southwyck Estate

    image
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,211

    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party

    In other news, I am not going pony trekking with Mamamoo. It's a pity because I reckon Moonbyul would be a good laugh.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,402
    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    I'm not convinced by one year at a time; 21 now and 25 in 4 years' time would be a better start, perhaps alongside significant price hikes, and followed in due course by making the relevant substances probihibited drugs.
    Why do people insist on sticking their noses in on other people's legal business? Small mindedness and puritanism on steroids.
    One word: pensionerism. As Britain ages, it will be dominated by proposals that protect people from themselves. See also infantilisation of adults, see also weak men create hard times, see also gambling repression. You will note that very few people are discussing whether this should be done, they are discussing how to do it.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,496
    nova said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    I am now imagining a 65 year old hanging around outside a newsagent, trying to persuade a passing 70 year old to buy them cigarettes.
    Trying, but failing, to imagine a "newsagent" existing in 2060 ...
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,635

    Sub optimal day for Lozza Fox.

    He and Calvin Robinson sacked by Wokeist GB News.

    Liz Truss says (and I quote) that 'we need more GB News'. Such an astonishing statement that I thought I'd misheard.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,402

    Great to know that we live in a country where a multi-millionaire former public schoolboy can become PM, whatever the colour of their skin.

    You forgot to mention the inevitable PPE degree.
    Nowt wrong with a PPE degree...


    ...says the man with the PPE degree.
    It enabled you to have enough plastic surgery to stop looking like Yannis Varoufakis!
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    nova said:

    MattW said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    I'm not convinced by one year at a time - too complex and pfaffy; 21 now and 25 in 4 years' time would be a better start, perhaps alongside significant price hikes, and followed in due course by making the relevant substances probihibited drugs.

    (If there is no such thing as a minor crime as I just heard, why is he running away from parking enforcement to prevent wheelchair users and others being forced into dangerous traffic?)
    Wouldn't that mean that everyone who is 18-20 now is stuck in an ongoing loop of being able to smoke every few years, and then banned again?
    Sounds like Sunakism perfected.....
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,138

    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party

    What an absolute whopper
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    Andy Street on BBC very disappointed in decision but this is a good compromise position
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,949
    I didn't think the announcement of the Shipley Bypass would be seen as the key policy pledge of the speech.

    Oh, and if this new station in Bradford is on the site previously proposed, and just replaces Interchange, it will mean a longer walk from Forster Square than at present. What is needed is a single, central station, not half a new station further away from the city centre.
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    Listening to the media it seems there is support with the public in the north

    I would suggest Sunak needs to gather the northern mayors at no 10 to agree the way forward and to have regular meetings

    Where is labour's response ?

    It really is a disgrace that after 13 years of lefty government the Labour party haven't got an immediate response to the brave policies of the leader of the opposition.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,496

    I didn't think the announcement of the Shipley Bypass would be seen as the key policy pledge of the speech.

    Oh, and if this new station in Bradford is on the site previously proposed, and just replaces Interchange, it will mean a longer walk from Forster Square than at present. What is needed is a single, central station, not half a new station further away from the city centre.

    You know the Tories - the only kind of Union they like is the one with the UJ stuck on top. Trades Unions, Union Stations, forget it.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,738
    ...

    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party

    The second decision is not his finest call.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,335
    Politics Joe have done a fine video for Trainstopping, starring Sunak.

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1709529507659473192?t=Z_drqe2WGKm3cauAlDelxA&s=19
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,402

    I would suggest Sunak needs to...

    You don't have to answer the question below out loud, just do it in your head.

    "Do you believe him?"

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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,988
    The more you look at Sunaks speech, the worse it is. The A level reforms aren’t schedule to happen for 10 years, and the HS2 decision to sell the already purchased land (as well as scrapping it) looks like a form of national sabotage for Labour to clear up

    Ugh. Conservative politics is just so…shit.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,738
    kinabalu said:

    Sub optimal day for Lozza Fox.

    He and Calvin Robinson sacked by Wokeist GB News.

    Liz Truss says (and I quote) that 'we need more GB News'. Such an astonishing statement that I thought I'd misheard.
    You can watch my share. Thanks.
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    viewcode said:

    I would suggest Sunak needs to...

    You don't have to answer the question below out loud, just do it in your head.

    "Do you believe him?"

    That is why I said he has to have regular dialogue with the northern mayors and work together
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,977

    Listening to the media it seems there is support with the public in the north

    I would suggest Sunak needs to gather the northern mayors at no 10 to agree the way forward and to have regular meetings

    Where is labour's response ?

    First rule of politics; don't interrupt your opponent when they're making a huge mistake
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,676

    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party

    There goes his credibility.
    Shame.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,496

    viewcode said:

    I would suggest Sunak needs to...

    You don't have to answer the question below out loud, just do it in your head.

    "Do you believe him?"

    That is why I said he has to have regular dialogue with the northern mayors and work together
    Tories having regular dialogue with any devolved administration if it's not a Tory one? Pull the other plonker, chum (as a railway worker once said to me).
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    Andy Street on BBC very disappointed in decision but this is a good compromise position

    I suspect Street was in on it all along: huff and puff to begin with then have a damascene conversion once Rishi explains it. Completely transparent.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,278
    Foxy said:

    Politics Joe have done a fine video for Trainstopping, starring Sunak.

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1709529507659473192?t=Z_drqe2WGKm3cauAlDelxA&s=19

    Okay that’s actually funny - but they shouldn’t have had a posh boy do the narration. Plenty of actors with Manchester or Glasgow accents that would have made it better.
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,188

    Sub optimal day for Lozza Fox.

    He and Calvin Robinson sacked by Wokeist GB News.

    And the police have searched his house and arrested him for conspiracy
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,496

    Andy Street on BBC very disappointed in decision but this is a good compromise position

    I suspect Street was in on it all along: huff and puff to begin with then have a damascene conversion once Rishi explains it. Completely transparent.
    He'd rather go to Euston than OOC, which is understandable. Shame about the North.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,676
    Dura_Ace said:

    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party

    In other news, I am not going pony trekking with Mamamoo. It's a pity because I reckon Moonbyul would be a good laugh.
    Well called.

    And yes, they are ace.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,757

    Listening to the media it seems there is support with the public in the north

    I would suggest Sunak needs to gather the northern mayors at no 10 to agree the way forward and to have regular meetings

    Where is labour's response ?

    I don't think the Northern Mayors are in any mood to compromise. What the Northern Mayors wanted was HS2 and NPR. Now they are being offered neither. I don't see where the space for agreement is.


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    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,212
    Street , another spineless Tory lickspittle .
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    glwglw Posts: 9,583
    Nigelb said:

    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party

    There goes his credibility.
    Shame.
    He might simply think it's worth waiting on Starmer becoming PM rather than resigning.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,676
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Politics Joe have done a fine video for Trainstopping, starring Sunak.

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1709529507659473192?t=Z_drqe2WGKm3cauAlDelxA&s=19

    Okay that’s actually funny - but they shouldn’t have had a posh boy do the narration. Plenty of actors with Manchester or Glasgow accents that would have made it better.
    It's supposed to be Rishi, so no.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,278
    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,676
    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party

    There goes his credibility.
    Shame.
    He might simply think it's worth waiting on Starmer becoming PM rather than resigning.
    As TSE points out, he could have stayed as Mayor, and left the party.

    Really not sure what's left there for him.
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    Actor Laurence Fox and presenter Calvin Robinson sacked from TV channel GB News

    GB News is the home of cancel culture.
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,981
    "But, in an interview being broadcast now, he says he is staying in part because Sunak has respected his concerns. He says he thinks people in the West Midlands will be better served by his continuing to stay in the party and working with Sunak on transport improvements."

    Next West Midlands mayoral election is 2 May 2024.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,496
    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    With reference (only) to your final query, and without implying who has or has not been doing it: an obvious difference is that statues are not a functional instrument of government by which it applies legal sanctions where needed.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,211
    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    There is no free speech. This Blades fan is going to jail for taking the piss out of some dead mackem kid at a football match.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/fan-who-mocked-late-six-year-old-sunderland-mascot-faces-jail-after-utterly-deplorable-act/ar-AA1hzslw
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,072
    edited October 2023

    Listening to the media it seems there is support with the public in the north

    I would suggest Sunak needs to gather the northern mayors at no 10 to agree the way forward and to have regular meetings

    Where is labour's response ?

    I can tell you don't use the trains in the North, particularly Manchester.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,079
    edited October 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    Terrorism Act 2000 ?

    The Terrorism Act 2000 defines terrorism, both in and outside of the UK, as the use or threat of one or more of the actions listed below

    . serious damage to property;

    The use or threat of action, as set out above, which involves the use of firearms or explosives is terrorism regardless of whether or not the action is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public or a section of the public.

    Action includes action outside the United Kingdom.

    It is important to note that in order to be convicted of a terrorism offence a person doesn't actually have to commit what could be considered a terrorist attack. Planning, assisting and even collecting information on how to commit terrorist acts are all crimes under British terrorism legislation.

    Fox has NOT threatened to use firearms or explosives though
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,720
    edited October 2023
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    I'm not convinced by one year at a time; 21 now and 25 in 4 years' time would be a better start, perhaps alongside significant price hikes, and followed in due course by making the relevant substances probihibited drugs.
    Why do people insist on sticking their noses in on other people's legal business? Small mindedness and puritanism on steroids.
    Why do people have a problem with programmes to improve health, and prevent those who say "Waah ! Leave me on my own !" imposing unnecessary costs on the Health System?
    According to the anti-smoking lobby ASH, smoking costs the NHS £2.5 billion a year
    According to HMRC smoking raises £8.8 billion a year in tax.

    Your costs argument is bullshit.
    Depends what they'd spend the money on otherwise, mind. Fresh fruit? Alcohol?
    Also the two figures are not directly linked, as the smokers paying the tax today will be getting the joy of cancer in 20, 30 or 40 years (possibly). For instance a colleague's mother in law has recently been diagnosed with lung cancer almost certainly associated with he smoking of many years ago - she hasn't smoked for decades. So even if you banned smoking today, the harms will keep rolling on for decades.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,402
    "...and thank you Huw. On "Network North" tonight, more transport chaos as yet another rail line is cancelled, the police announce the third knife amnesty this year, and local centenarian Mary Phillips says it's stout that keeps her young. And now to Alan Partridge with the sport..."
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,720
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    There is no free speech. This Blades fan is going to jail for taking the piss out of some dead mackem kid at a football match.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/fan-who-mocked-late-six-year-old-sunderland-mascot-faces-jail-after-utterly-deplorable-act/ar-AA1hzslw
    What 'free speech' was he undertaking? He was being deliberating provocative and insulting concerning a deceased 6 year old for fecks' sake.

    We all know that free speech has limits and rightly so. Behaviour such as this is utterly puerile and worthy of punishment (but not jail).
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,835
    edited October 2023
    Maajid Nawaz is another that has gone quite mad in recent years.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,627
    Laurence Fox has apparently been arrested for damaging ULEZ cameras.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,949

    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party

    Shame. I disagree with him on HS2 but it would have been good to see him make a stand on a point of principle he believes in. He could very easily have quit as a Tory and still continued to do his job as mayor - probably would have got him more support as well.
    People who have their bluff called uniformly look ridiculous. This is as true for Andy Street as it is for every parent with a toddler at one time or another.

    If you make a bluff you run a serious risk of humiliation.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,949

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Mortimer said:

    MattW said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    I'm not convinced by one year at a time; 21 now and 25 in 4 years' time would be a better start, perhaps alongside significant price hikes, and followed in due course by making the relevant substances probihibited drugs.
    Why do people insist on sticking their noses in on other people's legal business? Small mindedness and puritanism on steroids.
    Why do people have a problem with programmes to improve health, and prevent those who say "Waah ! Leave me on my own !" imposing unnecessary costs on the Health System?
    According to the anti-smoking lobby ASH, smoking costs the NHS £2.5 billion a year
    According to HMRC smoking raises £8.8 billion a year in tax.

    Your costs argument is bullshit.
    Depends what they'd spend the money on otherwise, mind. Fresh fruit? Alcohol?
    Also the two figures are not directly linked, as the smokers paying the tax today will be getting the joy of cancer in 20, 30 or 40 years (possibly). For instance a colleague's mother in law has recently been diagnosed with lung cancer almost certainly associated with he smoking of many years ago - she hasn't smoked for decades. So even if you banned smoking today, the harms will keep rolling on for decades.
    That's true, but it makes the comparison even stronger, because the lung cancer we see now is largely a consequence of smoking in the past, when smoking rates were higher, but the tax revenue is from now, when smoking rates are lower.
  • Options

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    There is no free speech. This Blades fan is going to jail for taking the piss out of some dead mackem kid at a football match.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/fan-who-mocked-late-six-year-old-sunderland-mascot-faces-jail-after-utterly-deplorable-act/ar-AA1hzslw
    What 'free speech' was he undertaking? He was being deliberating provocative and insulting concerning a deceased 6 year old for fecks' sake.

    We all know that free speech has limits and rightly so. Behaviour such as this is utterly puerile and worthy of punishment (but not jail).
    But jail is what seems likely. Should be a ban from football grounds with as little police and court time, if any, as needed.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,492
    viewcode said:

    "...and thank you Huw. On "Network North" tonight, more transport chaos as yet another rail line is cancelled, the police announce the third knife amnesty this year, and local centenarian Mary Phillips says it's stout that keeps her young. And now to Alan Partridge with the sport..."
    There'll be no new projects that would not have happened anyway (e.g. under NPR), and the filling in of a pothole in Alston will be shown as "Being from HS2 funds".

    The only people 'winning' from this are the treasury.

    This government is backwards-looking and utterly London-centric.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,738

    Andy Street on BBC very disappointed in decision but this is a good compromise position

    But it's not a good compromise is it?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,720

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    There is no free speech. This Blades fan is going to jail for taking the piss out of some dead mackem kid at a football match.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/fan-who-mocked-late-six-year-old-sunderland-mascot-faces-jail-after-utterly-deplorable-act/ar-AA1hzslw
    What 'free speech' was he undertaking? He was being deliberating provocative and insulting concerning a deceased 6 year old for fecks' sake.

    We all know that free speech has limits and rightly so. Behaviour such as this is utterly puerile and worthy of punishment (but not jail).
    But jail is what seems likely. Should be a ban from football grounds with as little police and court time, if any, as needed.
    Is jail likely? I'd suspect suspended sentence at worst.
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,397
    kinabalu said:

    Sub optimal day for Lozza Fox.

    He and Calvin Robinson sacked by Wokeist GB News.

    Liz Truss says (and I quote) that 'we need more GB News'. Such an astonishing statement that I thought I'd misheard.
    Might as well be the new slogan of the Tory Party. Certainly it beats whatever inane drivel about a brighter future the moron room in CCHQ came up with. This conference has been a fiasco that has not been equalled in Conservative history.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,949
    My opinion is that mind-altering drugs should be safe, legal and used sparingly.

    I'm as opposed to banning nicotine as I am to continuing the futile war on cannabis, heroin, etc.

    The current strategy on nicotine is largely working. Smoking rates are decreasing, it's regulated so users know they're using what they think they are using, and people who want help to quit can ask for help without involving the police.
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,447
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    There is no free speech. This Blades fan is going to jail for taking the piss out of some dead mackem kid at a football match.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/fan-who-mocked-late-six-year-old-sunderland-mascot-faces-jail-after-utterly-deplorable-act/ar-AA1hzslw
    There is a difference between free speech and freedom to say what you want without impunity. Nobody prevented the football fan in the first place.
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,447
    Consequences always follow freedom of speech
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,738
    Has Rishi done enough to remain PM until the next GE?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,496
    edited October 2023
    Did anyone mention Brexit at Brum? Like how they are going to actually implement customs controls?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,720

    Consequences always follow freedom of speech

    And in this case, I go back to the point, what "freedom of speech" was he trying to make or say? Is he laughing because a six year old kid died of cancer? Makes him stupid or a despicable human being, or both.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,413

    The smoking policy is absolute nonsense. It's a decision which should be made by adults. Either you are an adult and thus old enough to decide at 18 or you are not.

    If the government wants to discourage smoking further it should simply increase the tax on cigarettes.

    Can't we just exile smokers to Rwanda?
    Normally, we just make them go stand outside under a small awning...
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,757
    edited October 2023

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    There is no free speech. This Blades fan is going to jail for taking the piss out of some dead mackem kid at a football match.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/fan-who-mocked-late-six-year-old-sunderland-mascot-faces-jail-after-utterly-deplorable-act/ar-AA1hzslw
    There is a difference between free speech and freedom to say what you want without impunity. Nobody prevented the football fan in the first place.
    I'm not sure I agree. This fella is clearly a horrible individual - one of the regrettable majority of football fans who give the rest a bad name - but I can't see how what he did constitutes a crime. Freedom of speech includes the freedom to say things which are horrible or tasteless or with which we disagree or which might rile those in authority. Otherwise it isn't really freedom at all.

    Clearly he merits a good kicking however.
  • Options
    novanova Posts: 525

    Andy Street on BBC very disappointed in decision but this is a good compromise position

    Considering HS2 still goes to London from Birmingham, and that the money saved from the more northerly sections will now partly be used in the Midlands, it's not a surprise he thinks it's a good compromise.

    I notice it was also going to be used in other parts of the country. The cynic in me imagines every two bit transport project anywhere in England over the next decade will be allocated to "HS2 savings".
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,720

    Has Rishi done enough to remain PM until the next GE?

    I think he has because there is no alternative that is any better. If you wanted the shot at Tory leadership would you want the year of the sinking ship, or 5 years of building a new ship? I'd want the latter - at least there is a chance of something there.

    The situation of the nation is still going to be shit when Starmer takes over. The honeymoon won't last long and for all that they can (and will) blame the Tories, people very soon get fed up when the change doesn't deliver what they hoped. See also Brexit.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,926

    Consequences always follow freedom of speech

    Has Rishi done enough to remain PM until the next GE?

    Nice juxtaposition.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 10,197

    Andy Street confirms he will stay as mayor and a member of the conservative party

    Shame. I disagree with him on HS2 but it would have been good to see him make a stand on a point of principle he believes in. He could very easily have quit as a Tory and still continued to do his job as mayor - probably would have got him more support as well.
    People who have their bluff called uniformly look ridiculous. This is as true for Andy Street as it is for every parent with a toddler at one time or another.

    If you make a bluff you run a serious risk of humiliation.
    It's possible this will go the Claire Short route. Reassured, stays on board, then realises that after he'd served his purpose for a brief political moment he's being ignored, so flounces a bit later.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,178

    Listening to the media it seems there is support with the public in the north

    I would suggest Sunak needs to gather the northern mayors at no 10 to agree the way forward and to have regular meetings

    Where is labour's response ?

    I can tell you don't use the trains in the North, particularly Manchester.
    Won't Labour's current response be "don't interrupt an opponent when he is busy punching himself on he nose"?

    But we may hear something next week?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,197
    nova said:

    Andy Street on BBC very disappointed in decision but this is a good compromise position

    Considering HS2 still goes to London from Birmingham, and that the money saved from the more northerly sections will now partly be used in the Midlands, it's not a surprise he thinks it's a good compromise.

    I notice it was also going to be used in other parts of the country. The cynic in me imagines every two bit transport project anywhere in England over the next decade will be allocated to "HS2 savings".
    Over the next 12 months. After that there will be a different government.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,083
    edited October 2023

    Consequences always follow freedom of speech

    And in this case, I go back to the point, what "freedom of speech" was he trying to make or say? Is he laughing because a six year old kid died of cancer? Makes him stupid or a despicable human being, or both.
    Surely we can agree being stupid is not a crime?

    Even being a despicable human being, or more accurately a human being acting despicably, should be insufficient on its own to be a crime.

    The point of protecting free speech is not to protect those making lovely, logical and correct statements, but to allow the people we disagree with, who are indeed often a bit stupid and occassionally despicable to speak freely.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,720
    Cookie said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    There is no free speech. This Blades fan is going to jail for taking the piss out of some dead mackem kid at a football match.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/fan-who-mocked-late-six-year-old-sunderland-mascot-faces-jail-after-utterly-deplorable-act/ar-AA1hzslw
    There is a difference between free speech and freedom to say what you want without impunity. Nobody prevented the football fan in the first place.
    I'm not sure I agree. This fella is clearly a horrible individual - one of the regrettable majority of football fans who give the rest a bad name - but I can't see how what he did constitutes a crime. Freedom of speech includes the freedom to say things which are horrible or tasteless or with which we disagree or which might rile those in authority. Otherwise it isn't really freedom at all.

    Clearly he merits a good kicking however.
    Does anyone think that any country, anywhere in the world has absolute freedom of speech? Of course they don't. In this case if the idiot wants to be free to be grossly insulting to a dead child, then I think others ought to have the freedom to kick the shit out of him without punishment...

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,079
    Services to Sheffield Victoria apparently.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,720

    The smoking policy is absolute nonsense. It's a decision which should be made by adults. Either you are an adult and thus old enough to decide at 18 or you are not.

    If the government wants to discourage smoking further it should simply increase the tax on cigarettes.

    Can't we just exile smokers to Rwanda?
    Normally, we just make them go stand outside under a small awning...
    Ah - the smoking huts that pubs rolled out after the smoking ban came in. How the smokers hated that.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,790

    The smoking policy is absolute nonsense. It's a decision which should be made by adults. Either you are an adult and thus old enough to decide at 18 or you are not.

    If the government wants to discourage smoking further it should simply increase the tax on cigarettes.

    Can't we just exile smokers to Rwanda?
    Normally, we just make them go stand outside under a small awning...
    Rwanda has a small awning just outside of it?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,738

    Has Rishi done enough to remain PM until the next GE?

    I think he has because there is no alternative that is any better. If you wanted the shot at Tory leadership would you want the year of the sinking ship, or 5 years of building a new ship? I'd want the latter - at least there is a chance of something there.

    The situation of the nation is still going to be shit when Starmer takes over. The honeymoon won't last long and for all that they can (and will) blame the Tories, people very soon get fed up when the change doesn't deliver what they hoped. See also Brexit.
    In some respects the Conservatives scorching the earth in anticipation of a Labour Government and unexpectedly winning a Tory majority of 5 would be the optimal result.
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,447
    Carnyx said:

    nova said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    One more thought before I go to conduct my afternoon.

    The smoking age going up by a year every year.

    Proof of age is currently only a fairly low level identity thing limited to the young. As time goes on, 30, 40, 50 year olds will be having to prove their age to smoke.

    Maybe it will still be low level, but it could also be seen as a serious use case for identity cards.

    I am now imagining a 65 year old hanging around outside a newsagent, trying to persuade a passing 70 year old to buy them cigarettes.
    Trying, but failing, to imagine a "newsagent" existing in 2060 ...
    Tobacconist?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,635
    Andy_JS said:

    Laurence Fox has apparently been arrested for damaging ULEZ cameras.

    He's probably Cool Hand Luke in his own head. But be careful what you wish for Lozza. We know how that ended.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,278
    Andy_JS said:

    Laurence Fox has apparently been arrested for damaging ULEZ cameras.

    Nope, he’s been arrested for Twitter posts and a podcast interview. No suggestion he’s damaged anything.

    A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: “Officers arrested a 45-year-old man on suspicion of conspiring to commit criminal damage to Ulez cameras and encouraging or assisting offences to be committed.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,720

    Consequences always follow freedom of speech

    And in this case, I go back to the point, what "freedom of speech" was he trying to make or say? Is he laughing because a six year old kid died of cancer? Makes him stupid or a despicable human being, or both.
    Surely we can agree being stupid is not a crime?

    Even being a despicable human being, or more accurately a human being acting despicably, should be insufficient on its own to be a crime.

    The point of protecting free speech is not to protect those making lovely, logical and correct statements, but to allow the people we disagree with, who are indeed often a bit stupid and occassionally despicable to speak freely.
    Maybe - I think a society has the right to enforce social mores, or that society risks falling apart. Being able to give offence in this way without come back does not seem right to me. A bit like people burning poppies - some assert that that is a freedom of speech issue too, but others are gravely offended. Or worse - burning a Bible or a Koran.

    Comedy relies on punching up. Thats why its seen as ok to insult the rich, or the government as they have money and power. You don't punch down. So mocking a poor dead child and his family is really beyond the pale. As I say - what freedom of speech point is made here?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,627
    Leon said:

    Another death by XL Bully

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/04/man-killed-by-dog-believed-to-be-xl-bully-near-sunderland

    How many more will we tolerate? Man had his throat ripped out

    Muzzle them NOW by LAW and cull them all by Christmas

    This should be the government's priority, not smoking.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,235
    edited October 2023

    Consequences always follow freedom of speech

    And in this case, I go back to the point, what "freedom of speech" was he trying to make or say? Is he laughing because a six year old kid died of cancer? Makes him stupid or a despicable human being, or both.
    Surely we can agree being stupid is not a crime?

    Even being a despicable human being, or more accurately a human being acting despicably, should be insufficient on its own to be a crime.

    The point of protecting free speech is not to protect those making lovely, logical and correct statements, but to allow the people we disagree with, who are indeed often a bit stupid and occassionally despicable to speak freely.
    But surely you're not saying we shouldn't be allowed to stop people doing things just because we don't like them?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,278
    I wonder how Rishi views the new post-grad course at Exeter on Magic, as outlined in the Guardian this morning.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,211

    Cookie said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    There is no free speech. This Blades fan is going to jail for taking the piss out of some dead mackem kid at a football match.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/fan-who-mocked-late-six-year-old-sunderland-mascot-faces-jail-after-utterly-deplorable-act/ar-AA1hzslw
    There is a difference between free speech and freedom to say what you want without impunity. Nobody prevented the football fan in the first place.
    I'm not sure I agree. This fella is clearly a horrible individual - one of the regrettable majority of football fans who give the rest a bad name - but I can't see how what he did constitutes a crime. Freedom of speech includes the freedom to say things which are horrible or tasteless or with which we disagree or which might rile those in authority. Otherwise it isn't really freedom at all.

    Clearly he merits a good kicking however.
    Does anyone think that any country, anywhere in the world has absolute freedom of speech? Of course they don't. In this case if the idiot wants to be free to be grossly insulting to a dead child, then I think others ought to have the freedom to kick the shit out of him without punishment...

    So we should be allowed to kill people who say things we find disagreeable?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,838

    Has Rishi done enough to remain PM until the next GE?

    No.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,335
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    There is no free speech. This Blades fan is going to jail for taking the piss out of some dead mackem kid at a football match.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/fan-who-mocked-late-six-year-old-sunderland-mascot-faces-jail-after-utterly-deplorable-act/ar-AA1hzslw
    The guy is an idiot, but that is merely crass, and shouldn't be a crime.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,635

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Where freedom of speech meets incitement?

    On Tuesday, in an interview broadcast on video platform Rumble, Fox, 45, declared full support for the “Blade Runners” group of Ulez vigilantes.

    “I encourage them to tear down every single camera there is and I will be joining them,” the suspended GB News host said.

    He added: “I am pretty close with several and I will be out there with my angle grinder.”

    He also told presenter Maajid Nawaz he would be “happy to be arrested” if he was caught removing the cameras.

    A video shared on Wednesday morning by the Reclaim Party, of which Fox is leader, showed five police officers at the disgraced presenter’s address.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/laurence-fox-police-search-ulez-gb-news-cameras/

    Does that comment really cross the line into illegality?

    There’s no suggestion that Fox ever touched an ULEZ camera, and he’s not been arrested for actual criminal damage.

    One gets the impression that Fox is well-funded and could take this to the Supreme Court.

    How would criminal damage of ULEZ cameras be compared to criminal damage to statues a few years ago?

    There is no free speech. This Blades fan is going to jail for taking the piss out of some dead mackem kid at a football match.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/fan-who-mocked-late-six-year-old-sunderland-mascot-faces-jail-after-utterly-deplorable-act/ar-AA1hzslw
    What 'free speech' was he undertaking? He was being deliberating provocative and insulting concerning a deceased 6 year old for fecks' sake.

    We all know that free speech has limits and rightly so. Behaviour such as this is utterly puerile and worthy of punishment (but not jail).
    But jail is what seems likely. Should be a ban from football grounds with as little police and court time, if any, as needed.
    Is jail likely? I'd suspect suspended sentence at worst.
    He won't be going to jail.
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