Yes, in both ceremonies she 's actually looked the dominant figure. Public presentation is a big part of being a politician, and she has all that, along with the capacity to publicly empathise, too - not that common in politicians.
Fair play to Penny for the sword game. She’s rather good at this ceremonial, also did well around the passing of the Queen.
Let's just wait and see how she does in the actual combat against the French president's champion. That is usually the acid test. Let's not forget it was touch and go in 1910.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
And what a magnificent build* it was too - as with many medieval cathedrals, abbeys and churches. I never cease to feel a moment of awe whenever I enter a building with gothic stone vaulting.
(*Although the west towers are Protestant of course)
Sunak should quote the Bhagavad Geeta, where Krishna encourages a strong sense of duty and honour in Arjun when the latter has misgivings during the fratricidal Mahabharat War.
In more important news, my sewer pipe relocation was quick and easy. . There's not any overt coronation stuff going on around here, not a lot of bunting, no street parties, but it is weirdly very quiet. No rain, so I'd expect at least a bit of DIY noise or lawn mowing but it's silent, especially now the mini digger is off. I guess everyone is indoors watching the great and the good playing dress up.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
And what a magnificent build* it was too - as with many medieval cathedrals, abbeys and churches. I never cease to feel a moment of awe whenever I enter a building with gothic stone vaulting.
(*Although the west towers are Protestant of course)
I actually prefer the ancient, smaller churches - especially if you can find one that was not too heavily 'modernised' by the Victorians. Then again, I'm not find of bling in general - I'm not a fan of Pugin's interiors.
Rishi from Winchester, and the monarch acclaimed by centuries' old tradition by the scholars from Westminster. The elite schools getting in on the act again..
Was she as gloriously aloof and frosty as you'd imagine?
Quite, quite the opposite, with caveats.
Before we met her, my Aussie GF was a republican, and asked me to do all the talking. When we met her, I could hardly get a word in edgeways as they chatted. Funnily, the conversation turned onto whether things are nature versus nurture - she said something like one of her earliest memories was riding a pony, and asked me about walking. To which I replied that my grandfather had been a keen walker and cyclist. We then chatted about places we knew on and around the coast, and she mentioned memories of HMY Britannia.
My GF ended up a firm monarchist - and she still is.
It must be quite hard having to meet so many people, and to find common things to chat about. It made a lifelong memory for the two of us, but I bet she forgot about us within ten minutes...
Oh what a nice memory. That's the one thing the the Royals do have going for them. I bet it wouldn't have made anywhere near the same impression if you'd met a middle ranking government official or minister...
Most of us think we’re cool as cucumbers and unmoved by celebrity or power until we find ourselves having a conversation with someone famous and treasuring it. I’ve not conversed with any of the royals (though I did sing at a wedding in Hereford cathedral where Charles, Di and Camilla were all guests and Will was a page boy) but I do recall being ridiculously starstruck when Curtly Ambrose exchanged a few words with me in a beer tent once.
I have never spoken to anyone famous (unless you can count Adam Heppinstall) but I can imagine what an effect it must have.
I met a lot (probably over half) of the F1 drivers of the early 1990s. Mostly the back of the grid ones; not Senna or Prost. Through the same route, I also met Bernie Ecclestone, and chatted to him about concrete, of all things, before I realised who he was.
If I'd wanted, I could probably have swung a meeting with Senna. A very minor regret of my life.
Through my role with graduation at the Uni I meet a number of celebs each year - this has included John Cleese, Bobby Charlton, Jenson Button and many more, but my favourite was Lewis, of Duckworth-Lewis method. He was nonplussed to be asked to sign a copy of wisden for me… I’m struck by how varied such folk are. Some are very approachable and friendly, others give a different feel, albeit often behind a facade. John Cleese came across as affable, but I did not take to him at all. Bill Bailey was great, kept rambling on about wizards!
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
To an increasing number of younger people religion is arcane. That can't be avoided. Inviting people of multiple faiths is not really a solution. I don't know what the answer is other than disestablishment.
Was she as gloriously aloof and frosty as you'd imagine?
Quite, quite the opposite, with caveats.
Before we met her, my Aussie GF was a republican, and asked me to do all the talking. When we met her, I could hardly get a word in edgeways as they chatted. Funnily, the conversation turned onto whether things are nature versus nurture - she said something like one of her earliest memories was riding a pony, and asked me about walking. To which I replied that my grandfather had been a keen walker and cyclist. We then chatted about places we knew on and around the coast, and she mentioned memories of HMY Britannia.
My GF ended up a firm monarchist - and she still is.
It must be quite hard having to meet so many people, and to find common things to chat about. It made a lifelong memory for the two of us, but I bet she forgot about us within ten minutes...
Oh what a nice memory. That's the one thing the the Royals do have going for them. I bet it wouldn't have made anywhere near the same impression if you'd met a middle ranking government official or minister...
Most of us think we’re cool as cucumbers and unmoved by celebrity or power until we find ourselves having a conversation with someone famous and treasuring it. I’ve not conversed with any of the royals (though I did sing at a wedding in Hereford cathedral where Charles, Di and Camilla were all guests and Will was a page boy) but I do recall being ridiculously starstruck when Curtly Ambrose exchanged a few words with me in a beer tent once.
I have never spoken to anyone famous (unless you can count Adam Heppinstall) but I can imagine what an effect it must have.
I met a lot (probably over half) of the F1 drivers of the early 1990s. Mostly the back of the grid ones; not Senna or Prost. Through the same route, I also met Bernie Ecclestone, and chatted to him about concrete, of all things, before I realised who he was.
If I'd wanted, I could probably have swung a meeting with Senna. A very minor regret of my life.
Oh, if I'd wanted I could have met loads of famous people.
Actually there is a neat symbolism here. A Hindi head boy from Winchester.
Even deeper symbolism as Sunak wasn’t “head boy” but was Head of the Commoners (Sen Co Prae) and second to the head boy of college, the original institution, which is accidentally appropriate as PM at the Coronation of the King.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
To an increasing number of younger people religion is arcane. That can't be avoided. Inviting people of multiple faiths is not really a solution. I don't know what the answer is other than disestablishment.
Actually there is a neat symbolism here. A Hindi head boy from Winchester.
Even deeper symbolism as Sunak wasn’t “head boy” but was Head of the Commoners (Sen Co Prae) and second to the head boy of college, the original institution, which is accidentally appropriate as PM at the Coronation of the King.
This is starting to sound like a Private Eye parody. I don't mean to say that the details aren't strictly accurate, but still ...
There’s no way George is going to grow up believing in god.
It's an ancient ceremony?
Is everyone who has a wedding or a funeral devoutly religious? I think most people are able to separate their own personal faith (or lack of) with religious ceremony/tradition at the most important times in life and death
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
And what a magnificent build* it was too - as with many medieval cathedrals, abbeys and churches. I never cease to feel a moment of awe whenever I enter a building with gothic stone vaulting.
(*Although the west towers are Protestant of course)
I always find medieval cathedrals stunning. To achieve such structures with the tools and equipment they had at the time is just an incredible achievement. The Abbey is definitely one of the stars today.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
And what a magnificent build* it was too - as with many medieval cathedrals, abbeys and churches. I never cease to feel a moment of awe whenever I enter a building with gothic stone vaulting.
(*Although the west towers are Protestant of course)
I actually prefer the ancient, smaller churches - especially if you can find one that was not too heavily 'modernised' by the Victorians. Then again, I'm not find of bling in general - I'm not a fan of Pugin's interiors.
God no, Victorian 'gothic' is usually pretty awful.
I hardly think you can class the nave of Westminster Abbey as 'clingy' though. Sublime verticality and airiness crowned by a stone vault that is the essence of form following function.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
To an increasing number of younger people religion is arcane. That can't be avoided. Inviting people of multiple faiths is not really a solution. I don't know what the answer is other than disestablishment.
Why does it need an answer?
If the Monarchy is not seen as relevant to the younger generation it's support will fade. I'm going to a wedding tomorrow. It is at a Country House. There will be no religious element. That is increasingly the case among the young now.
There’s no way George is going to grow up believing in god.
It's an ancient ceremony?
Is everyone who has a wedding or a funeral devoutly religious? I think most people are able to separate their own personal faith (or lack of) with important ceremonys at the most important times in life.
I got married at a hotel, no religion whatsoever involved. Why have a church wedding if you don't believe in it?
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
And what a magnificent build* it was too - as with many medieval cathedrals, abbeys and churches. I never cease to feel a moment of awe whenever I enter a building with gothic stone vaulting.
(*Although the west towers are Protestant of course)
I always find medieval cathedrals stunning. To achieve such structures with the tools and equipment they had at the time is just an incredible achievement. The Abbey is definitely one of the stars today.
For anyone interested in this topic, I can highly recommend the book The Stone Skeleton by Jacques Heyman
Good moment for our country, whatever your politics, having Sunak read shows our multi-faceted and tolerant society.
Hmmm... Ok, so when will we have our first non-white Head of State?
Just arrange for everyone ahead of Prince Archie in the line of succession to die in unusual ways, á la Kind Hearts and Coronets, and you'll have it.
William once got the most almighty bollocking from her late Majesty, for turning up to meet her at Sandringham with Catherine and all three of their children, in an helicopter he’d flown there himself from London. Imagine the crisis if we needed to use the Spare, after all that’s happened recently.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
To an increasing number of younger people religion is arcane. That can't be avoided. Inviting people of multiple faiths is not really a solution. I don't know what the answer is other than disestablishment.
Why does it need an answer?
If the Monarchy is not seen as relevant to the younger generation it's support will fade. I'm going to a wedding tomorrow. It is at a Country House. There will be no religious element. That is increasingly the case among the young now.
I can think of very few young people who would be alienated by a friend having a religious wedding or funeral.
The relgiious side is a big part of what makes the coronation impressive.
Imagine a coronation ceremony being conducted by Keith Porteous Wood or Nicola Sturgeon.
MHAIRI Black has said the SNP would "drag the Labour Party to the left" in a hung parliament - as analysis suggests the SNP could hold the balance of power at the next election.
Presumably not if Kate Forbes has taken over by then.
Why not? The Labour Party in London is very right-wing. Brexit and so on. And if it is a hung parliament then social issues in England will not be on the agenda as far as the SNP are concerned, except insofar as human rights are respected.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
And what a magnificent build* it was too - as with many medieval cathedrals, abbeys and churches. I never cease to feel a moment of awe whenever I enter a building with gothic stone vaulting.
(*Although the west towers are Protestant of course)
I actually prefer the ancient, smaller churches - especially if you can find one that was not too heavily 'modernised' by the Victorians. Then again, I'm not find of bling in general - I'm not a fan of Pugin's interiors.
God no, Victorian 'gothic' is usually pretty awful.
I hardly think you can class the nave of Westminster Abbey as 'clingy' though. Sublime verticality and airiness crowned by a stone vault that is the essence of form following function.
Agree - and to clarify, I meant to *avoid* Victorian interiors.
But the exteriors - I quite like Gothic Revival. St Pancras hotel being a sublime example. Or the slightly understated GR exterior of my old school.
It's all the gilding in the interiors that I find far too much.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
To an increasing number of younger people religion is arcane. That can't be avoided. Inviting people of multiple faiths is not really a solution. I don't know what the answer is other than disestablishment.
Why does it need an answer?
If the Monarchy is not seen as relevant to the younger generation it's support will fade. I'm going to a wedding tomorrow. It is at a Country House. There will be no religious element. That is increasingly the case among the young now.
I can think of very few young people who would be alienated by a friend having a religious wedding or funeral.
The relgiious side is a big part of what makes the coronation impressive.
Imagine a coronation ceremony being conducted by Keith Porteous Wood or Nicola Sturgeon.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
To an increasing number of younger people religion is arcane. That can't be avoided. Inviting people of multiple faiths is not really a solution. I don't know what the answer is other than disestablishment.
Why does it need an answer?
If the Monarchy is not seen as relevant to the younger generation it's support will fade. I'm going to a wedding tomorrow. It is at a Country House. There will be no religious element. That is increasingly the case among the young now.
I can think of very few young people who would be alienated by a friend having a religious wedding or funeral.
The relgiious side is a big part of what makes the coronation impressive.
Imagine a coronation ceremony being conducted by Keith Porteous Wood or Nicola Sturgeon.
MHAIRI Black has said the SNP would "drag the Labour Party to the left" in a hung parliament - as analysis suggests the SNP could hold the balance of power at the next election.
Presumably not if Kate Forbes has taken over by then.
Why not? The Labour Party in London is very right-wing. Brexit and so on. And if it is a hung parliament then social issues in England will not be on the agenda as far as the SNP are concerned, except insofar as human rights are respected.
The Labour Party headquarters in London, rather than Labour members or voters in London, don't forget; who are some of the most anti-Brexit and liberal, in the country, let's not forget.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
And what a magnificent build* it was too - as with many medieval cathedrals, abbeys and churches. I never cease to feel a moment of awe whenever I enter a building with gothic stone vaulting.
(*Although the west towers are Protestant of course)
I always find medieval cathedrals stunning. To achieve such structures with the tools and equipment they had at the time is just an incredible achievement. The Abbey is definitely one of the stars today.
For anyone interested in this topic, I can highly recommend the book The Stone Skeleton by Jacques Heyman
Seconded. Interesting take away that I seem to recall from this or somewhere else is that the design of Gothic cathedrals is (a) compressive and (b) scales with unitary power (to a biologist, the allometric constant is 1.000). So making a scale model with bits of cut turnip works. If it falls down, no harm. If it doesn't, then have a go in 1:1 scale with real stone.
Didn't always work. Foundations were a dodgy area. Hence the in hindsight superb hasty lash-up at Wells Cathedral, and the bends in the Purbeck Marble columns at the crossing of Salisbury IIRC.
MHAIRI Black has said the SNP would "drag the Labour Party to the left" in a hung parliament - as analysis suggests the SNP could hold the balance of power at the next election.
Presumably not if Kate Forbes has taken over by then.
Why not? The Labour Party in London is very right-wing. Brexit and so on. And if it is a hung parliament then social issues in England will not be on the agenda as far as the SNP are concerned, except insofar as human rights are respected.
The Labour Party headquarters in London, rather than Labour members or voters in London ; who are some of the most anti-Brexit, and liberal, in the country, don't forget.
Quite right - should have been still more specific. As you say.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
To an increasing number of younger people religion is arcane. That can't be avoided. Inviting people of multiple faiths is not really a solution. I don't know what the answer is other than disestablishment.
Why does it need an answer?
If the Monarchy is not seen as relevant to the younger generation it's support will fade. I'm going to a wedding tomorrow. It is at a Country House. There will be no religious element. That is increasingly the case among the young now.
I can think of very few young people who would be alienated by a friend having a religious wedding or funeral.
The relgiious side is a big part of what makes the coronation impressive.
Imagine a coronation ceremony being conducted by Keith Porteous Wood or Nicola Sturgeon.
That's not the point. People can respect others' choices and yes the coronation is about the King but it is also supposed to be about the nation(s) he represents. I'm not sure something so alien to an increasingly large section of the public is going to encourage civic identity.
As I say there isn't much they can do. Attitudes to religion have changed massively since 1953.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
To an increasing number of younger people religion is arcane. That can't be avoided. Inviting people of multiple faiths is not really a solution. I don't know what the answer is other than disestablishment.
Traditional religion may be.
But even a cursory glance at our society will show that the religious impulse - the desire to believe in something - all sorts of ideologies and belief systems- coupled with shunning of heretics and quasi priestly castes etc and mantras or catechisms - is alive and well.
Indeed it seems strongest amongst the young. The real issue is what these belief systems are and what vices and virtues they have. Railing against established religions rather misses asking these crucial (to me, anyway) questions.
"When a man stops believing in God, he doesn't then believe in nothing, he believes anything."
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
To an increasing number of younger people religion is arcane. That can't be avoided. Inviting people of multiple faiths is not really a solution. I don't know what the answer is other than disestablishment.
Why does it need an answer?
If the Monarchy is not seen as relevant to the younger generation it's support will fade. I'm going to a wedding tomorrow. It is at a Country House. There will be no religious element. That is increasingly the case among the young now.
I can think of very few young people who would be alienated by a friend having a religious wedding or funeral.
The relgiious side is a big part of what makes the coronation impressive.
Imagine a coronation ceremony being conducted by Keith Porteous Wood or Nicola Sturgeon.
To you, maybe.
Remember we’re paying for this.
And?
We're just coming out of a winter where energy bills have at least doubled for people who can't afford the increase. People have had difficult choices to make. That many people think Chaz's shindig is excessive and that the money could have been better spent elsewhere is a more than acceptable stance.
They have no choice. I agree the overt religiosity is a real problem going forward though.
Well I'm Catholic and I have no problem with it. We've graciously allowed you to use the cathedral we built. I hope you're suitably grateful.
😀
To an increasing number of younger people religion is arcane. That can't be avoided. Inviting people of multiple faiths is not really a solution. I don't know what the answer is other than disestablishment.
Why does it need an answer?
If the Monarchy is not seen as relevant to the younger generation it's support will fade. I'm going to a wedding tomorrow. It is at a Country House. There will be no religious element. That is increasingly the case among the young now.
I can think of very few young people who would be alienated by a friend having a religious wedding or funeral.
The relgiious side is a big part of what makes the coronation impressive.
Imagine a coronation ceremony being conducted by Keith Porteous Wood or Nicola Sturgeon.
That's not the point. People can respect others' choices and yes the coronation is about the King but it is also supposed to be about the nation(s) he represents. I'm not sure something so alien to an increasingly large section of the public is going to encourage civic identity.
As I say there isn't much they can do. Attitudes to religion have changed massively since 1953.
I think you are right it would be a massive issue if the scenario ever arises where the next in line is skipped on religious grounds whilst otherwise being suitable. However the scenario is also very unlikely to happen in the next 60 years or so, by which time who knows what life will be like let alone religious attitudes or even the nation state.
Comments
It’s the new Truss/Day Collar conspiracy.
A non-religious coronation would be dismal.
Guessing change the rules?
(*Although the west towers are Protestant of course)
There's not any overt coronation stuff going on around here, not a lot of bunting, no street parties, but it is weirdly very quiet. No rain, so I'd expect at least a bit of DIY noise or lawn mowing but it's silent, especially now the mini digger is off.
I guess everyone is indoors watching the great and the good playing dress up.
I’m struck by how varied such folk are. Some are very approachable and friendly, others give a different feel, albeit often behind a facade.
John Cleese came across as affable, but I did not take to him at all. Bill Bailey was great, kept rambling on about wizards!
💙💛 choice of colours #Coronation
Video: @RoyalFamily
https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1654796979979927553?s=20
Is everyone who has a wedding or a funeral devoutly religious? I think most people are able to separate their own personal faith (or lack of) with religious ceremony/tradition at the most important times in life and death
I hardly think you can class the nave of Westminster Abbey as 'clingy' though. Sublime verticality and airiness crowned by a stone vault that is the essence of form following function.
https://www.latimes.com/
http://www.mordaunt.me.uk/baronets.html
The relgiious side is a big part of what makes the coronation impressive.
Imagine a coronation ceremony being conducted by Keith Porteous Wood or Nicola Sturgeon.
But the exteriors - I quite like Gothic Revival. St Pancras hotel being a sublime example. Or the slightly understated GR exterior of my old school.
It's all the gilding in the interiors that I find far too much.
Remember we’re paying for this.
Kind of goes a bit mediocre after that, but still.
Didn't always work. Foundations were a dodgy area. Hence the in hindsight superb hasty lash-up at Wells Cathedral, and the bends in the Purbeck Marble columns at the crossing of Salisbury IIRC.
Ugh. Caught a bit of the coronation in the hotel bar.
As I say there isn't much they can do. Attitudes to religion have changed massively since 1953.
But even a cursory glance at our society will show that the religious impulse - the desire to believe in something - all sorts of ideologies and belief systems- coupled with shunning of heretics and quasi priestly castes etc and mantras or catechisms - is alive and well.
Indeed it seems strongest amongst the young. The real issue is what these belief systems are and what vices and virtues they have. Railing against established religions rather misses asking these crucial (to me, anyway) questions.
"When a man stops believing in God, he doesn't then believe in nothing, he believes anything."
That many people think Chaz's shindig is excessive and that the money could have been better spent elsewhere is a more than acceptable stance.