I'm slightly surprised to see people shocked that Braverman is back, this is the cost of doing business for Rishi. We all said how massively significant it was that she backed him instead of Boris, was anyone really that naïve that they thought it was a freebie?
Politics is a messy business and sometimes getting down in the mud is the only way to win. Rishi showed he was a grown up rather than playing student politics by getting political enemies like SB on side. Is it ideal? Obviously not, but the alternative is Boris bringing back Priti or SB for HS. SB was the kingmaker, this was her price.
Looking at the piccies, I see a military uniform I don't recognise. Can anyone help?
It looks very @TSE , especially the white leather boots.
2A Ceremonial of Royal Regiment of Scotland. Gold aiguilette because he's an equerry.
He's destroying Sunak (beta cuck) with that handshake.
aiguillette noun noun: aiguillette; plural noun: aiguillettes an ornament on some military and naval uniforms, consisting of braided loops hanging from the shoulder and on dress uniforms ending in points that resemble pencils.
Looking at the piccies, I see a military uniform I don't recognise. Can anyone help?
It looks very @TSE , especially the white leather boots.
2A Ceremonial of Royal Regiment of Scotland. Gold aiguilette because he's an equerry.
He's destroying Sunak (beta cuck) with that handshake.
What I'm wondering: Why is Arsene Wenger in the car with KCIII? is Charlie a gooner? Or did he get confused and think it was Starmer coming to the palace?
When we weren't sure if Suella B had resigned or been sacked, there was lots of chatter about how the issue was about legal immigration. Basically, we could no longer afford a "fewer foreigners" strategy because we really needed people to take our jobs.
How does that circle get squared?
Extend the Australia/NZ working holiday scheme to the EU on reciprocal basis. It's not a difficult question to answer, Rishi just needs the balls to push it through.
Hang on so now we want virtually unlimited immigration from the EU instead of South Asia.
You leavers can't get your story right - last time (ie with Brexit) you were all delighted that we would have fewer EU immigrants and more from eg South Asia.
Make your bleedin' minds up.
I was never particularly bothered about immigration and the point of the working holiday visa is that it's still a work permit based scheme and comes with no right to welfare for the three years and it then requires sponsorship to renew for a further three years, that's completely different to free movement, the government still has a big lever to pull on if it doesn't think it's good for the economy or a subset of workers are seeing wage deflation.
Max you said yourself that it is virtually unlimited, in the millions, while many over stay their visas. That was what you didn't like, but are suggesting the exact same thing for the EU.
Makes no sense.
And if I had a penny for every time people posted on here "we love immigration we just want to be able to control it why should those from South Asia be discriminated against?" I would be 0.00000000001x as wealthy as Rishi.
It's because Indian nationals already have a higher than average tendency to overstay their visas. Suella Braverman was, fairly, pointing that out.
You're being purposefully obtuse because you know there's no argument to be had here. An Indian person who earns $100/m in India has a huge incentive to get the 3 year visa, overstay and work illegally until they are deported vs a European earning €1500 per month wherever they live and there are, at last count, 1.4bn Indians compared to 300m people in the EU. The pull factor is just hugely different, for most younger Europeans it will be about a cultural exchange, learning English, meeting English and other European young people, for younger Indians it will be a straight up transactional exchange until they are booted out for overstaying their visa. The proposed scheme was a rubbish idea and any trade deal with India which includes it would be a terrible idea.
Just be logical.
To say give all EU citizens the theoretical right to come over here in their millions after voting precisely to curtail just that right is just ridiculous.
Not really, firstly it's a working holiday visa available to people aged 35 or younger, secondly the visa comes with no right to welfare, thirdly to renew it the person needs a sponsored job at the end of the 3 years or they have to go home. It's completely different to free movement of people. You're trying to draw an equivalence because you think it's some kind of huge gotcha moment, but it isn't and it isn't.
There is of course an equivalence. It is allowing millions of people into the country to work. I don't imagine too many Parisian investment bankers will be coming but maybe for people from Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria it will be very tempting. Millions? Ask Nigel Farage.
And you are happy for them to come. It isn't a gotcha moment it is a moment to show how absurd the Brexit vote was.
For all his personal disappointment at losing cabinet status, Jacob Rees Mogg has the presence of mind and sense of humour to date his resignation letter "Saint Crispin's Day". What a remarkable man he is.
I'm slightly surprised to see people shocked that Braverman is back, this is the cost of doing business for Rishi. We all said how massively significant it was that she backed him instead of Boris, was anyone really that naïve that they thought it was a freebie?
Politics is a messy business and sometimes getting down in the mud is the only way to win. Rishi showed he was a grown up rather than playing student politics by getting political enemies like SB on side. Is it ideal? Obviously not, but the alternative is Boris bringing back Priti or SB for HS. SB was the kingmaker, this was her price.
Mordaunt would have probably become FS had she withdrawn on Sunday and backed Sunak, tbh.
When we weren't sure if Suella B had resigned or been sacked, there was lots of chatter about how the issue was about legal immigration. Basically, we could no longer afford a "fewer foreigners" strategy because we really needed people to take our jobs.
How does that circle get squared?
Extend the Australia/NZ working holiday scheme to the EU on reciprocal basis. It's not a difficult question to answer, Rishi just needs the balls to push it through.
Hang on so now we want virtually unlimited immigration from the EU instead of South Asia.
You leavers can't get your story right - last time (ie with Brexit) you were all delighted that we would have fewer EU immigrants and more from eg South Asia.
Make your bleedin' minds up.
Again, this is the make-up-your-mind fallacy. There will be diverse opinons within a group, many of which are consisyent over time. This does not equate to a single un-made-up mimd.
Absolutely. Some of us have been wanting free movement with the EU and more immigration from the rest of the world. But that doesn't seem to fit with Topping's preconceived ideas about Leavers so he would rather pretend we don't exist or that we have had some sort of Damascene conversion.
Bollocks Richard. Max (a leaver) just said he didn't want millions of Indians coming over here and his solution was to give those very same visas to the EU.
What's your solution?
Max is one person. He does not speak for the whole of the Leave movement any more than I do - or any more than you speak for all Remainers. You don't get to pigeon hole people just to fit your own pre-conceived bias. So I am afraid it is you who are talking bollocks.
Are you a fan of the visas for India?
I am a fan of both freedom of movement with the EU and more visas for India (and lots of other places). It has been my position - argued against all comers on here, both Leave and Remain supporters - since long before the EU referendum. I think immigration is good for this country and something to be encouraged. Always have done and, I hope, always will.
I think strong control of borders is good in so far as we need to filter those who intend to do us harm or commit criminal acts (one reason I don't like Schengen) but beyond that I would like to see a default position that people are encouraged to come and work and study here rather than pushed away.
Thanks for clarifying. You are of course in a minority of leavers but good for you for all that.
The Suella appointment is very disappointing and I think is the big story of the reshuffle. And not in a good way.
Fumbled it, Rishi…
And yet the alternative was Priti Patel returning under Boris next Monday after he won the members ballot. I'm really not sure how different that would be for the department, but for the nation another two years of Boris would be a disaster. The opportunity cost of not getting Braverman on side was extremely high, Sunak showing he can do grown up politics more than anything else. Purity is for numpties, if he'd refused her offer he'd be losing the membership race right now.
Agreed - my interpretation of this is also that it must have been the deal that got him over the line, in the sense that it avoided a members election. Braverman back as Home Secretary. Keeps enough of the ERG ers on side. Braverman is probably the only politician aside from Patel that actually covets that job, which is a poisoned chalice in any event. The problem is that I can't see it lasting long. We're basically on a countdown to Braverman resigning the second time, as they come to blows on any number of flashpoint issues (ECHR, migration visa quotas). At least Sunak can say he tried. But it feels like not long until things fall apart. Or perhaps we will be surprised...
Well I think Sunak will find it hard to convince the public that this is a new-look, revitalised government. He is either being surprisingly foolish, or is in a surprisingly weak position - either way I was hoping for a more convincing team.
Yep that is a sensible assessment. It is mine also.
Delighted to see Cruella reappointed to the Home Office. Gift week for Labour.
Hmm, quite a Cabinet of Curiosities in the old museum sense - not least how many are the same old specimens stil on display. Even if the stuffed giraffe and hippo had a terminal dose of moth/mite/dermestid beetle and had to be chucked.
For some reason, possibly also to do with her fondness for double entendres, I find this sentence vaguely exciting, although I don't really want her to be punished.
More seriously, she deserved a better job, and is more competent than several of the others appointed to more senior roles.
The Suella appointment is very disappointing and I think is the big story of the reshuffle. And not in a good way.
Fumbled it, Rishi…
And yet the alternative was Priti Patel returning under Boris next Monday after he won the members ballot. I'm really not sure how different that would be for the department, but for the nation another two years of Boris would be a disaster. The opportunity cost of not getting Braverman on side was extremely high, Sunak showing he can do grown up politics more than anything else. Purity is for numpties, if he'd refused her offer he'd be losing the membership race right now.
My interpretation of this is that it must have been the deal that got him over the line, in the sense that it avoided a members election. Braverman back as Home Secretary. Keeps enough of the ERG ers on side. Braverman is probably the only politician aside from Patel that actually covets that job, which is a poisoned chalice in any event. The problem is that I can't see it lasting long. We're basically on a countdown to Braverman resigning the second time, as they come to blows on any number of flashpoint issues (ECHR, migration visa quotas). At least Sunak can say he tried. But it feels like not long until things fall apart.
Tim Shipman's assessment seems to be that she knew what she was doing and did it anyway, so I don't think she'd have a problem in doing it again. Definite gift for Labour as they've got another thing to chip away at apart from Rishi himself.
The Suella appointment is very disappointing and I think is the big story of the reshuffle. And not in a good way.
Fumbled it, Rishi…
And yet the alternative was Priti Patel returning under Boris next Monday after he won the members ballot. I'm really not sure how different that would be for the department, but for the nation another two years of Boris would be a disaster. The opportunity cost of not getting Braverman on side was extremely high, Sunak showing he can do grown up politics more than anything else. Purity is for numpties, if he'd refused her offer he'd be losing the membership race right now.
Agreed - my interpretation of this is also that it must have been the deal that got him over the line, in the sense that it avoided a members election. Braverman back as Home Secretary. Keeps enough of the ERG ers on side. Braverman is probably the only politician aside from Patel that actually covets that job, which is a poisoned chalice in any event. The problem is that I can't see it lasting long. We're basically on a countdown to Braverman resigning the second time, as they come to blows on any number of flashpoint issues (ECHR, migration visa quotas). At least Sunak can say he tried. But it feels like not long until things fall apart.
The trouble about appointing factional representatives to Cabinet is that when you fire them for incompetence the whole faction feels like it is being punished.
I'm genuinely in awe of this appointment. It is breathtaking.
When we weren't sure if Suella B had resigned or been sacked, there was lots of chatter about how the issue was about legal immigration. Basically, we could no longer afford a "fewer foreigners" strategy because we really needed people to take our jobs.
How does that circle get squared?
Extend the Australia/NZ working holiday scheme to the EU on reciprocal basis. It's not a difficult question to answer, Rishi just needs the balls to push it through.
Hang on so now we want virtually unlimited immigration from the EU instead of South Asia.
You leavers can't get your story right - last time (ie with Brexit) you were all delighted that we would have fewer EU immigrants and more from eg South Asia.
Make your bleedin' minds up.
I was never particularly bothered about immigration and the point of the working holiday visa is that it's still a work permit based scheme and comes with no right to welfare for the three years and it then requires sponsorship to renew for a further three years, that's completely different to free movement, the government still has a big lever to pull on if it doesn't think it's good for the economy or a subset of workers are seeing wage deflation.
Max you said yourself that it is virtually unlimited, in the millions, while many over stay their visas. That was what you didn't like, but are suggesting the exact same thing for the EU.
Makes no sense.
And if I had a penny for every time people posted on here "we love immigration we just want to be able to control it why should those from South Asia be discriminated against?" I would be 0.00000000001x as wealthy as Rishi.
It's because Indian nationals already have a higher than average tendency to overstay their visas. Suella Braverman was, fairly, pointing that out.
You're being purposefully obtuse because you know there's no argument to be had here. An Indian person who earns $100/m in India has a huge incentive to get the 3 year visa, overstay and work illegally until they are deported vs a European earning €1500 per month wherever they live and there are, at last count, 1.4bn Indians compared to 300m people in the EU. The pull factor is just hugely different, for most younger Europeans it will be about a cultural exchange, learning English, meeting English and other European young people, for younger Indians it will be a straight up transactional exchange until they are booted out for overstaying their visa. The proposed scheme was a rubbish idea and any trade deal with India which includes it would be a terrible idea.
Just be logical.
To say give all EU citizens the theoretical right to come over here in their millions after voting precisely to curtail just that right is just ridiculous.
Not really, firstly it's a working holiday visa available to people aged 35 or younger, secondly the visa comes with no right to welfare, thirdly to renew it the person needs a sponsored job at the end of the 3 years or they have to go home. It's completely different to free movement of people. You're trying to draw an equivalence because you think it's some kind of huge gotcha moment, but it isn't and it isn't.
There is of course an equivalence. It is allowing millions of people into the country to work. I don't imagine too many Parisian investment bankers will be coming but maybe for people from Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria it will be very tempting. Millions? Ask Nigel Farage.
And you are happy for them to come. It isn't a gotcha moment it is a moment to show how absurd the Brexit vote was.
It's the difference between having the ability to modify the policy unilaterally based on changing circumstances and being tied in to a political arrangement that cannot be altered.
A spineless set of appointments by Sunak . And with Braverman I can go back to utterly loathing the Tories . Fxck Sunak and his compassionate Conservative garbage .
The Suella appointment is very disappointing and I think is the big story of the reshuffle. And not in a good way.
Fumbled it, Rishi…
And yet the alternative was Priti Patel returning under Boris next Monday after he won the members ballot. I'm really not sure how different that would be for the department, but for the nation another two years of Boris would be a disaster. The opportunity cost of not getting Braverman on side was extremely high, Sunak showing he can do grown up politics more than anything else. Purity is for numpties, if he'd refused her offer he'd be losing the membership race right now.
Agreed - my interpretation of this is also that it must have been the deal that got him over the line, in the sense that it avoided a members election. Braverman back as Home Secretary. Keeps enough of the ERG ers on side. Braverman is probably the only politician aside from Patel that actually covets that job, which is a poisoned chalice in any event. The problem is that I can't see it lasting long. We're basically on a countdown to Braverman resigning the second time, as they come to blows on any number of flashpoint issues (ECHR, migration visa quotas). At least Sunak can say he tried. But it feels like not long until things fall apart.
The trouble about appointing factional representatives to Cabinet is that when you fire them for incompetence the whole faction feels like it is being punished.
I'm genuinely in awe of this appointment. It is breathtaking.
It's also possible that he actually rates her and agrees with her.
The Suella appointment is very disappointing and I think is the big story of the reshuffle. And not in a good way.
Fumbled it, Rishi…
And yet the alternative was Priti Patel returning under Boris next Monday after he won the members ballot. I'm really not sure how different that would be for the department, but for the nation another two years of Boris would be a disaster. The opportunity cost of not getting Braverman on side was extremely high, Sunak showing he can do grown up politics more than anything else. Purity is for numpties, if he'd refused her offer he'd be losing the membership race right now.
Agreed - my interpretation of this is also that it must have been the deal that got him over the line, in the sense that it avoided a members election. Braverman back as Home Secretary. Keeps enough of the ERG ers on side. Braverman is probably the only politician aside from Patel that actually covets that job, which is a poisoned chalice in any event. The problem is that I can't see it lasting long. We're basically on a countdown to Braverman resigning the second time, as they come to blows on any number of flashpoint issues (ECHR, migration visa quotas). At least Sunak can say he tried. But it feels like not long until things fall apart.
The trouble about appointing factional representatives to Cabinet is that when you fire them for incompetence the whole faction feels like it is being punished.
I'm genuinely in awe of this appointment. It is breathtaking.
It's also possible that he actually rates her and agrees with her.
I'm slightly surprised to see people shocked that Braverman is back, this is the cost of doing business for Rishi. We all said how massively significant it was that she backed him instead of Boris, was anyone really that naïve that they thought it was a freebie?
Politics is a messy business and sometimes getting down in the mud is the only way to win. Rishi showed he was a grown up rather than playing student politics by getting political enemies like SB on side. Is it ideal? Obviously not, but the alternative is Boris bringing back Priti or SB for HS. SB was the kingmaker, this was her price.
A spineless set of appointments by Sunak . And with Braverman I can go back to utterly loathing the Tories . Fxck Sunak and his compassionate Conservative garbage .
The Suella appointment is very disappointing and I think is the big story of the reshuffle. And not in a good way.
Fumbled it, Rishi…
And yet the alternative was Priti Patel returning under Boris next Monday after he won the members ballot. I'm really not sure how different that would be for the department, but for the nation another two years of Boris would be a disaster. The opportunity cost of not getting Braverman on side was extremely high, Sunak showing he can do grown up politics more than anything else. Purity is for numpties, if he'd refused her offer he'd be losing the membership race right now.
Agreed - my interpretation of this is also that it must have been the deal that got him over the line, in the sense that it avoided a members election. Braverman back as Home Secretary. Keeps enough of the ERG ers on side. Braverman is probably the only politician aside from Patel that actually covets that job, which is a poisoned chalice in any event. The problem is that I can't see it lasting long. We're basically on a countdown to Braverman resigning the second time, as they come to blows on any number of flashpoint issues (ECHR, migration visa quotas). At least Sunak can say he tried. But it feels like not long until things fall apart.
The trouble about appointing factional representatives to Cabinet is that when you fire them for incompetence the whole faction feels like it is being punished.
I'm genuinely in awe of this appointment. It is breathtaking.
It's also possible that he actually rates her and agrees with her.
The Suella appointment is very disappointing and I think is the big story of the reshuffle. And not in a good way.
Fumbled it, Rishi…
And yet the alternative was Priti Patel returning under Boris next Monday after he won the members ballot. I'm really not sure how different that would be for the department, but for the nation another two years of Boris would be a disaster. The opportunity cost of not getting Braverman on side was extremely high, Sunak showing he can do grown up politics more than anything else. Purity is for numpties, if he'd refused her offer he'd be losing the membership race right now.
Agreed - my interpretation of this is also that it must have been the deal that got him over the line, in the sense that it avoided a members election. Braverman back as Home Secretary. Keeps enough of the ERG ers on side. Braverman is probably the only politician aside from Patel that actually covets that job, which is a poisoned chalice in any event. The problem is that I can't see it lasting long. We're basically on a countdown to Braverman resigning the second time, as they come to blows on any number of flashpoint issues (ECHR, migration visa quotas). At least Sunak can say he tried. But it feels like not long until things fall apart.
The trouble about appointing factional representatives to Cabinet is that when you fire them for incompetence the whole faction feels like it is being punished.
I'm genuinely in awe of this appointment. It is breathtaking.
It's also possible that he actually rates her and agrees with her.
I think at least half of that may be true, as Leon pointed out he made control of borders prominent in his short speech earlier. But even if you agree with and rate someone, it can not be time to appoint them. Her admission last week was significant.
When we weren't sure if Suella B had resigned or been sacked, there was lots of chatter about how the issue was about legal immigration. Basically, we could no longer afford a "fewer foreigners" strategy because we really needed people to take our jobs.
How does that circle get squared?
Extend the Australia/NZ working holiday scheme to the EU on reciprocal basis. It's not a difficult question to answer, Rishi just needs the balls to push it through.
Hang on so now we want virtually unlimited immigration from the EU instead of South Asia.
You leavers can't get your story right - last time (ie with Brexit) you were all delighted that we would have fewer EU immigrants and more from eg South Asia.
Make your bleedin' minds up.
I was never particularly bothered about immigration and the point of the working holiday visa is that it's still a work permit based scheme and comes with no right to welfare for the three years and it then requires sponsorship to renew for a further three years, that's completely different to free movement, the government still has a big lever to pull on if it doesn't think it's good for the economy or a subset of workers are seeing wage deflation.
Max you said yourself that it is virtually unlimited, in the millions, while many over stay their visas. That was what you didn't like, but are suggesting the exact same thing for the EU.
Makes no sense.
And if I had a penny for every time people posted on here "we love immigration we just want to be able to control it why should those from South Asia be discriminated against?" I would be 0.00000000001x as wealthy as Rishi.
It's because Indian nationals already have a higher than average tendency to overstay their visas. Suella Braverman was, fairly, pointing that out.
You're being purposefully obtuse because you know there's no argument to be had here. An Indian person who earns $100/m in India has a huge incentive to get the 3 year visa, overstay and work illegally until they are deported vs a European earning €1500 per month wherever they live and there are, at last count, 1.4bn Indians compared to 300m people in the EU. The pull factor is just hugely different, for most younger Europeans it will be about a cultural exchange, learning English, meeting English and other European young people, for younger Indians it will be a straight up transactional exchange until they are booted out for overstaying their visa. The proposed scheme was a rubbish idea and any trade deal with India which includes it would be a terrible idea.
Just be logical.
To say give all EU citizens the theoretical right to come over here in their millions after voting precisely to curtail just that right is just ridiculous.
Not really, firstly it's a working holiday visa available to people aged 35 or younger, secondly the visa comes with no right to welfare, thirdly to renew it the person needs a sponsored job at the end of the 3 years or they have to go home. It's completely different to free movement of people. You're trying to draw an equivalence because you think it's some kind of huge gotcha moment, but it isn't and it isn't.
There is of course an equivalence. It is allowing millions of people into the country to work. I don't imagine too many Parisian investment bankers will be coming but maybe for people from Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria it will be very tempting. Millions? Ask Nigel Farage.
And you are happy for them to come. It isn't a gotcha moment it is a moment to show how absurd the Brexit vote was.
Again, it's a time limited scheme available to people aged 18-35 and doesn't allow migration rights for dependents. What millions of people are going to use it from Europe? We have the same scheme already in place with Australia and NZ, soon Canada, it's a few thousand per year from the first two and probably a few thousand from Canada after it's agreed. For people from Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania there's no longer any right to welfare or right to bring dependents, so if they want to come here to work as a waiter or waitress for three years, not get a sponsored job (tip, restaurants can't sponsor visas for waiters and waitresses) and go home will anyone give a flying fuck? They pay their way for the NHS, they can't have kids in school, they don't get tax credits of UC, they don't get housing benefits or qualify for social housing, they don't have an indefinite right to leave as they did within the EU.
The pull factor is completely different. Whether or not you want to recognise that is up to you, I'm certain you already have but are being obtuse because you think it is a gotcha moment despite protestations to the contrary.
Delighted to see Cruella reappointed to the Home Office. Gift week for Labour.
And LDs; also for SNP; though much of the HS's remit doesn't affect Scotland, they also have strong views on immigration (and forced emigration of local people).
If Starmer has any sense, he will ignore all that rubbish about elections, which will get him nowhere, and zero in on integrity. A Home Secretary who broke the law, a Business Secretary who lied to the House, a Chancellor who when Health Secretary declined to keep stocks of PPE in place. Serving a boss who not only committed crimes but caused him to.
Attacks like that are going to be difficult for Sunak to rebut. And they are definitely going to hurt him.
OT Rory McIlroy won the CJ Cup at the weekend, his third win this year, and is now back on top of the PGA rankings. In a mediocre year for sport so far, there are probably worse 100/1 shots for SPotY. That said, I'd be happier waiting for the shortlist and then backing him (if nominated) for a top-3 finish. He should have the Northern Ireland bloc vote if nothing else.
A spineless set of appointments by Sunak . And with Braverman I can go back to utterly loathing the Tories . Fxck Sunak and his compassionate Conservative garbage .
"go back to"?
I briefly mellowed and then Sunak put the stain on humanity back as HS .
As Northern Al says we've got continuity Johnson/Truss. In fact worse. Al lest Truss had the bottle to sack her for her breach of the ministerial code.
Looking at the piccies, I see a military uniform I don't recognise. Can anyone help?
It looks very @TSE , especially the white leather boots.
2A Ceremonial of Royal Regiment of Scotland. Gold aiguilette because he's an equerry.
He's destroying Sunak (beta cuck) with that handshake.
What I'm wondering: Why is Arsene Wenger in the car with KCIII? is Charlie a gooner? Or did he get confused and think it was Starmer coming to the palace?
The Tory fresh start was Mordaunt. This is continuity.
With respect one unwise appointment in Braverman does not make this continuity from Truss and Johnson
I agree with Sky that he wants to hit the ground running, and in his confirmation of Hunt as COE you will see next Monday a complete rejection of all things Truss
Not expecting too much movement among the remaining lot. Not worth the disruption and there's not really much to promote or demote people into or out of.
So red neat for the right is Braverman, Cleverly, for Borisites Raab, centrists get Hunt, Shapps Has Kemi got anything? We all get to say cheerio to Mogg and Nadine Penny gets a rough deal but thems the breaks
Braverman aside it could be worse, its compromise with a weird Suella side
If Starmer has any sense, he will ignore all that rubbish about elections, which will get him nowhere, and zero in on integrity. A Home Secretary who broke the law, a Business Secretary who lied to the House, a Chancellor who when Health Secretary declined to keep stocks of PPE in place. Serving a boss who not only committed crimes but caused him to.
Attacks like that are going to be difficult for Sunak to rebut. And they are definitely going to hurt him.
If I was Mordaunt I would be furious too. Going by the appointments, it's almost as if both Truss and then Sunak have tried to deliberately humiliate her, for being the most genuine threat to them in the contests.
When we weren't sure if Suella B had resigned or been sacked, there was lots of chatter about how the issue was about legal immigration. Basically, we could no longer afford a "fewer foreigners" strategy because we really needed people to take our jobs.
How does that circle get squared?
Extend the Australia/NZ working holiday scheme to the EU on reciprocal basis. It's not a difficult question to answer, Rishi just needs the balls to push it through.
Hang on so now we want virtually unlimited immigration from the EU instead of South Asia.
You leavers can't get your story right - last time (ie with Brexit) you were all delighted that we would have fewer EU immigrants and more from eg South Asia.
Make your bleedin' minds up.
I was never particularly bothered about immigration and the point of the working holiday visa is that it's still a work permit based scheme and comes with no right to welfare for the three years and it then requires sponsorship to renew for a further three years, that's completely different to free movement, the government still has a big lever to pull on if it doesn't think it's good for the economy or a subset of workers are seeing wage deflation.
Max you said yourself that it is virtually unlimited, in the millions, while many over stay their visas. That was what you didn't like, but are suggesting the exact same thing for the EU.
Makes no sense.
And if I had a penny for every time people posted on here "we love immigration we just want to be able to control it why should those from South Asia be discriminated against?" I would be 0.00000000001x as wealthy as Rishi.
It's because Indian nationals already have a higher than average tendency to overstay their visas. Suella Braverman was, fairly, pointing that out.
You're being purposefully obtuse because you know there's no argument to be had here. An Indian person who earns $100/m in India has a huge incentive to get the 3 year visa, overstay and work illegally until they are deported vs a European earning €1500 per month wherever they live and there are, at last count, 1.4bn Indians compared to 300m people in the EU. The pull factor is just hugely different, for most younger Europeans it will be about a cultural exchange, learning English, meeting English and other European young people, for younger Indians it will be a straight up transactional exchange until they are booted out for overstaying their visa. The proposed scheme was a rubbish idea and any trade deal with India which includes it would be a terrible idea.
Just be logical.
To say give all EU citizens the theoretical right to come over here in their millions after voting precisely to curtail just that right is just ridiculous.
Not really, firstly it's a working holiday visa available to people aged 35 or younger, secondly the visa comes with no right to welfare, thirdly to renew it the person needs a sponsored job at the end of the 3 years or they have to go home. It's completely different to free movement of people. You're trying to draw an equivalence because you think it's some kind of huge gotcha moment, but it isn't and it isn't.
There is of course an equivalence. It is allowing millions of people into the country to work. I don't imagine too many Parisian investment bankers will be coming but maybe for people from Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria it will be very tempting. Millions? Ask Nigel Farage.
And you are happy for them to come. It isn't a gotcha moment it is a moment to show how absurd the Brexit vote was.
Again, it's a time limited scheme available to people aged 18-35 and doesn't allow migration rights for dependents. What millions of people are going to use it from Europe? We have the same scheme already in place with Australia and NZ, soon Canada, it's a few thousand per year from the first two and probably a few thousand from Canada after it's agreed. For people from Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania there's no longer any right to welfare or right to bring dependents, so if they want to come here to work as a waiter or waitress for three years, not get a sponsored job (tip, restaurants can't sponsor visas for waiters and waitresses) and go home will anyone give a flying fuck? They pay their way for the NHS, they can't have kids in school, they don't get tax credits of UC, they don't get housing benefits or qualify for social housing, they don't have an indefinite right to leave as they did within the EU.
The pull factor is completely different. Whether or not you want to recognise that is up to you, I'm certain you already have but are being obtuse because you think it is a gotcha moment despite protestations to the contrary.
Millions of people from Australia and NZ, and soon Canada are not going to come over here because it's bloody miles away. Arguably the same for India.
And as for the dependents, this, that and the other benefits if you are a FAM from Bulgaria or Romania you don't care about all that (wasn't it shown that EU immigrants, indeed immigrants in general claim fewer benefits than the indigenous population) you just want to come and get a good job or set up a car wash somewhere. The prevention of which informed precisely the same arguments which were used in support of us leaving the EU.
A spineless set of appointments by Sunak . And with Braverman I can go back to utterly loathing the Tories . Fxck Sunak and his compassionate Conservative garbage .
"go back to"?
I briefly mellowed and then Sunak put the stain on humanity back as HS .
Well, you never seemed to stop using the phrase "stain on humanity", which says a damn sight more about you than her.
I would be furious if I was Mordaunt too. Going by the appointments, it's almost as if both Truss and then Sunak have tried to deliberately humiliate her, for being the most genuine threat to them in the contests.
The Tory fresh start was Mordaunt. This is continuity.
With respect one unwise appointment in Braverman does not make this continuity from Truss and Johnson
I agree with Sky that he wants to hit the ground running, and in his confirmation of Hunt as COE you will see next Monday a complete rejection of all things Truss
As Northern Al says we've got continuity Johnson/Truss. In fact worse. Al lest Truss had the bottle to sack her for her breach of the ministerial code.
I must admit I'd thought he'd be better than that
Total partisan rubbish. It is not continuity Johnson and Truss; that is as absurd as suggesting SKS was continuity Corbyn. It could be argued that overlooking Mordaunt was foolish, but who knows what has gone on in the background. All looks very promising to me. I wish the new PM good luck. He will need it.
A spineless set of appointments by Sunak . And with Braverman I can go back to utterly loathing the Tories . Fxck Sunak and his compassionate Conservative garbage .
"go back to"?
I briefly mellowed and then Sunak put the stain on humanity back as HS .
Well, you never seemed to stop using the phrase "stain on humanity", which says a damn sight more about you than her.
Why I’m not the one taking glee from shipping people to Rwanda with orgasmic joy . She’s a sociopath.
A spineless set of appointments by Sunak . And with Braverman I can go back to utterly loathing the Tories . Fxck Sunak and his compassionate Conservative garbage .
"go back to"?
I briefly mellowed and then Sunak put the stain on humanity back as HS .
Well, you never seemed to stop using the phrase "stain on humanity", which says a damn sight more about you than her.
Why I’m not the one taking glee from shipping people to Rwanda with orgasmic joy . She’s a sociopath.
She never actually did it, any more than Ms Patel did. I wonder how much they spent on it all?
When we weren't sure if Suella B had resigned or been sacked, there was lots of chatter about how the issue was about legal immigration. Basically, we could no longer afford a "fewer foreigners" strategy because we really needed people to take our jobs.
How does that circle get squared?
Extend the Australia/NZ working holiday scheme to the EU on reciprocal basis. It's not a difficult question to answer, Rishi just needs the balls to push it through.
Hang on so now we want virtually unlimited immigration from the EU instead of South Asia.
You leavers can't get your story right - last time (ie with Brexit) you were all delighted that we would have fewer EU immigrants and more from eg South Asia.
Make your bleedin' minds up.
I was never particularly bothered about immigration and the point of the working holiday visa is that it's still a work permit based scheme and comes with no right to welfare for the three years and it then requires sponsorship to renew for a further three years, that's completely different to free movement, the government still has a big lever to pull on if it doesn't think it's good for the economy or a subset of workers are seeing wage deflation.
Max you said yourself that it is virtually unlimited, in the millions, while many over stay their visas. That was what you didn't like, but are suggesting the exact same thing for the EU.
Makes no sense.
And if I had a penny for every time people posted on here "we love immigration we just want to be able to control it why should those from South Asia be discriminated against?" I would be 0.00000000001x as wealthy as Rishi.
It's because Indian nationals already have a higher than average tendency to overstay their visas. Suella Braverman was, fairly, pointing that out.
You're being purposefully obtuse because you know there's no argument to be had here. An Indian person who earns $100/m in India has a huge incentive to get the 3 year visa, overstay and work illegally until they are deported vs a European earning €1500 per month wherever they live and there are, at last count, 1.4bn Indians compared to 300m people in the EU. The pull factor is just hugely different, for most younger Europeans it will be about a cultural exchange, learning English, meeting English and other European young people, for younger Indians it will be a straight up transactional exchange until they are booted out for overstaying their visa. The proposed scheme was a rubbish idea and any trade deal with India which includes it would be a terrible idea.
Just be logical.
To say give all EU citizens the theoretical right to come over here in their millions after voting precisely to curtail just that right is just ridiculous.
Not really, firstly it's a working holiday visa available to people aged 35 or younger, secondly the visa comes with no right to welfare, thirdly to renew it the person needs a sponsored job at the end of the 3 years or they have to go home. It's completely different to free movement of people. You're trying to draw an equivalence because you think it's some kind of huge gotcha moment, but it isn't and it isn't.
There is of course an equivalence. It is allowing millions of people into the country to work. I don't imagine too many Parisian investment bankers will be coming but maybe for people from Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria it will be very tempting. Millions? Ask Nigel Farage.
And you are happy for them to come. It isn't a gotcha moment it is a moment to show how absurd the Brexit vote was.
Again, it's a time limited scheme available to people aged 18-35 and doesn't allow migration rights for dependents. What millions of people are going to use it from Europe? We have the same scheme already in place with Australia and NZ, soon Canada, it's a few thousand per year from the first two and probably a few thousand from Canada after it's agreed. For people from Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania there's no longer any right to welfare or right to bring dependents, so if they want to come here to work as a waiter or waitress for three years, not get a sponsored job (tip, restaurants can't sponsor visas for waiters and waitresses) and go home will anyone give a flying fuck? They pay their way for the NHS, they can't have kids in school, they don't get tax credits of UC, they don't get housing benefits or qualify for social housing, they don't have an indefinite right to leave as they did within the EU.
The pull factor is completely different. Whether or not you want to recognise that is up to you, I'm certain you already have but are being obtuse because you think it is a gotcha moment despite protestations to the contrary.
Millions of people from Australia and NZ, and soon Canada are not going to come over here because it's bloody miles away. Arguably the same for India.
And as for the dependents, this, that and the other benefits if you are a FAM from Bulgaria or Romania you don't care about all that (wasn't it shown that EU immigrants, indeed immigrants in general claim fewer benefits than the indigenous population) you just want to come and get a good job or set up a car wash somewhere. Precisely the same arguments which were used in support of us leaving the EU.
That was never shown, people said it was but then never provided evidence. Additionally it seems unlikely because immigrants do lower paid work which are subsidised with in working benefits.
If they want to work in a car wash for three years that's up to them because at the end of the three years they have to go home because the car wash won't be able to sponsor them. If they want to come and get a good job then more power to them, they can get their workplace to sponsor them for a further three years and then become residents.
Also, you haven't addressed the huge income differential gap, even from those three countries you name, the GDP per capita is $12900 for a Romanian vs $1900 for an Indian. The Indian has a much, much higher incentive to come here than the Romanian.
As Northern Al says we've got continuity Johnson/Truss. In fact worse. Al lest Truss had the bottle to sack her for her breach of the ministerial code.
I must admit I'd thought he'd be better than that
Total partisan rubbish. It is not continuity Johnson and Truss; that is as absurd as suggesting SKS was continuity Corbyn. It could be argued that overlooking Mordaunt was foolish, but who knows what has gone on in the background. All looks very promising to me. I wish the new PM good luck. He will need it.
It was a bit of a snub when Truss put her there. I do hope that young Master Sunak keeps his petulance in check a bit better than this.
Otoh, although Truss & Sunak no doubt intended it as a slight, Leader of the House got Penny Mordaunt a starring role in the Queen to King handover, and sees her on Commons telly every week, which is more than most Secretaries of State.
A spineless set of appointments by Sunak . And with Braverman I can go back to utterly loathing the Tories . Fxck Sunak and his compassionate Conservative garbage .
"go back to"?
I briefly mellowed and then Sunak put the stain on humanity back as HS .
Well, you never seemed to stop using the phrase "stain on humanity", which says a damn sight more about you than her.
Why I’m not the one taking glee from shipping people to Rwanda with orgasmic joy . She’s a sociopath.
She never actually did it, any more than Ms Patel did. I wonder how much they spent on it all?
About £140m I think, including an extra 20, recently.
As Northern Al says we've got continuity Johnson/Truss. In fact worse. Al lest Truss had the bottle to sack her for her breach of the ministerial code.
I must admit I'd thought he'd be better than that
Total partisan rubbish. It is not continuity Johnson and Truss; that is as absurd as suggesting SKS was continuity Corbyn. It could be argued that overlooking Mordaunt was foolish, but who knows what has gone on in the background. All looks very promising to me. I wish the new PM good luck. He will need it.
The. Clown. is. Gone. Just rejoice!
We can’t rejoice until the corrupt sleazy filthy Tories are gone!
The Tory fresh start was Mordaunt. This is continuity.
With respect one unwise appointment in Braverman does not make this continuity from Truss and Johnson
I agree with Sky that he wants to hit the ground running, and in his confirmation of Hunt as COE you will see next Monday a complete rejection of all things Truss
Only one unwise appointment?
To be honest I am content with most of the appointments so far
A spineless set of appointments by Sunak . And with Braverman I can go back to utterly loathing the Tories . Fxck Sunak and his compassionate Conservative garbage .
"go back to"?
I briefly mellowed and then Sunak put the stain on humanity back as HS .
Well, you never seemed to stop using the phrase "stain on humanity", which says a damn sight more about you than her.
Why I’m not the one taking glee from shipping people to Rwanda with orgasmic joy . She’s a sociopath.
She never actually did it, any more than Ms Patel did. I wonder how much they spent on it all?
About £140m I think, including an extra 20, recently.
At that sort of rate for a free African holiday, Leon ought to be lobbying for an assignment to try it out. Edit: I hasten to add, nothing personal implied or intended, just the sums of money involved!
The Tory fresh start was Mordaunt. This is continuity.
With respect one unwise appointment in Braverman does not make this continuity from Truss and Johnson
I agree with Sky that he wants to hit the ground running, and in his confirmation of Hunt as COE you will see next Monday a complete rejection of all things Truss
Only one unwise appointment?
To be honest I am content with most of the appointments so far
Braverman has your full support. Do you share her dreams?
Comments
I will not be expecting much from this lot. Perhaps their purpose is to act as a warning to future generations?
Politics is a messy business and sometimes getting down in the mud is the only way to win. Rishi showed he was a grown up rather than playing student politics by getting political enemies like SB on side. Is it ideal? Obviously not, but the alternative is Boris bringing back Priti or SB for HS. SB was the kingmaker, this was her price.
Have a scarf with same pattern, which I'm wearing to local election office today, due to the blue!
noun
noun: aiguillette; plural noun: aiguillettes
an ornament on some military and naval uniforms, consisting of braided loops hanging from the shoulder and on dress uniforms ending in points that resemble pencils.
We have our winner for word of the day.
“ Braverman” beaten into second place.
(By at least 3 minutes)
And you are happy for them to come. It isn't a gotcha moment it is a moment to show how absurd the Brexit vote was.
Really? That fresh start did not last long.
https://graziadaily.co.uk/life/in-the-news/who-is-major-johnny-thompson-king-charles/
More seriously, she deserved a better job, and is more competent than several of the others appointed to more senior roles.
https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1584939423703396352
I'm genuinely in awe of this appointment. It is breathtaking.
The pull factor is completely different. Whether or not you want to recognise that is up to you, I'm certain you already have but are being obtuse because you think it is a gotcha moment despite protestations to the contrary.
Titter
THAT. IS. A. DISGRACE.
Attacks like that are going to be difficult for Sunak to rebut. And they are definitely going to hurt him.
Maybe third time is a charm when it comes to new PMs this year.
What if they all did that? Ricky Sunak, “Sunny” Jim, Mac the Knife, Lettuce Liz, Sleepy Joe F**kface Von Clownstick
I must admit I'd thought he'd be better than that
https://twitter.com/david_firth/status/1575473269351845888
All they now need to do is ask, every day, why a woman whose own party considers a security risk has been reappointed as, erm, Home Secretary.
The Tories just make it too easy these days.
I agree with Sky that he wants to hit the ground running, and in his confirmation of Hunt as COE you will see next Monday a complete rejection of all things Truss
Has Kemi got anything?
We all get to say cheerio to Mogg and Nadine
Penny gets a rough deal but thems the breaks
Braverman aside it could be worse, its compromise with a weird Suella side
And as for the dependents, this, that and the other benefits if you are a FAM from Bulgaria or Romania you don't care about all that (wasn't it shown that EU immigrants, indeed immigrants in general claim fewer benefits than the indigenous population) you just want to come and get a good job or set up a car wash somewhere. The prevention of which informed precisely the same arguments which were used in support of us leaving the EU.
@Dominic2306
@Betfair please set up 'what year ECHR/HRA referendum' & 'which side will win' markets asap, thanks!
https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1583022315960299521
And wither Theresa Coffey? Whose "old" departmental position still unfilled.
Am using "wither" above in more than one sense. May they BOTH wither!
The. Clown. is. Gone. Just rejoice!
(Health though.)
If they want to work in a car wash for three years that's up to them because at the end of the three years they have to go home because the car wash won't be able to sponsor them. If they want to come and get a good job then more power to them, they can get their workplace to sponsor them for a further three years and then become residents.
Also, you haven't addressed the huge income differential gap, even from those three countries you name, the GDP per capita is $12900 for a Romanian vs $1900 for an Indian. The Indian has a much, much higher incentive to come here than the Romanian.