There is pretty much no difference between Labour’s and Truss’s energy policy, save that Labour wanted a windfall tax for optics, and are rather more interested in finding conservation measures.
Both effectively want to put it on the never-never, which btw, is the right thing to do.
In the sprit of PB debate, I disagree with you. In fact you are totally wrong.
Energy firms take out government-backed loans to freeze bills, the loans would have to be repaid over 10 to 20 years. And you are calling it a freeze not a loan?
The Lib Dems are calling it a loan, to be paid back by working people, not a freeze.
Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey called for a "genuine freeze" of energy bills, saying it is "not right" that families and pensioners should be paying back a loan. He told BBC Breakfast on Tuesday: "What we're hearing from Downing Street, what you were referring to, isn't a freeze. It's a loan. "What they're saying is that families and pensioners should be paying this back for years to come. That's just not right. "We should be asking the oil and gas companies who are making tens of billions of pounds in profit they never expected to make because Putin invaded Ukraine, we should be asking them to pay some of that back so that we can afford to freeze people's bills without actually having the loan system that it's rumoured that Liz Truss wants." Asked if that is what he is expecting Ms Truss to introduce as leader, he said: "We just don't know, and this is my whole point. She's had weeks to tell us during the leadership election for the Tory party. And she didn't spell it out. "We put forward our alternative, our constructive alternative, which would be a genuine freeze on people's bills paid for by a one-off tax on the oil and gas companies who are making these super profits. That seems a fair approach."
There are two camps right now with different expectations of Liz’s policy.
You are in a different camp to me.
Then join me, and together we can rule the PB universe…
I don’t understand PB today, you should all be able to see the acute difference in the politics of a freeze, to protect working peoples money, and a loan to protect the energy industries windfall profits, using working peoples money.
By going with the energy industry scheme to freeze prices at current levels, Liz is merely plugging the gap between wholesale costs and what consumers pay - Truss is actually bailing out the Energy industry, protecting them from contributing their windfall, by loaning them the working peoples money.
And the difference between a plan that weights assistance more heavily to lower energy users and poorer homes whilst energy wasters and the more wealthy pay a bit more
Sorry, which is that?
The one where the £400 discount remains applied to all bills not cancelled as labour proposed.
It seems the only response from Labour spokespersons today has been a windfall tax will pay
Will Labour or indeed anyone confirm just how much a windfall tax will raise as I believe it is around £8 billion at most and a one off
I’ll be straight with you Big G.
If it only costs £29B to cover the October and January jumps and the entire £29B comes from windfall tax, Ed Davey is absolutely right, it’s a freeze not Liz Truss loan.
More likely in my opinion, more than £29B needs to be poured into this, but where you and Truss are wrong, it's a matter of fairness. People are struggling at the moment. These companies have made profit that they never expected to make and therefore that redistribution is really important as part of the package. It is "unfair" for working-class people to bear the brunt of any energy company loan scheme that is being brought in by Liz Truss's incoming government.
That is where Truss and the Tory’s have got this spectacularly wrong.
The 29 billion does not come from the windfall tax
With respect that is fake news
With respect, It is "unfair" for working-class people to bear the brunt of any energy company loan scheme that is being brought in by Liz Truss's incoming government - redistribution is really important as part of the package, otherwise you have to admit Truss and the Tory’s have got this spectacularly wrong, don’t you?
It's belting down with rain in Downing Street. You would have thought somebody would be keeping an eye on weather reports. Taking further account of the fog at Aberdeen airport and recalling Kate McCann's collapse at the leadership debate, I'm getting the strong impression that Liz Truss attracts stuff.
It will probably hail next, with really big hailstones
There is pretty much no difference between Labour’s and Truss’s energy policy, save that Labour wanted a windfall tax for optics, and are rather more interested in finding conservation measures.
Both effectively want to put it on the never-never, which btw, is the right thing to do.
In the sprit of PB debate, I disagree with you. In fact you are totally wrong.
Energy firms take out government-backed loans to freeze bills, the loans would have to be repaid over 10 to 20 years. And you are calling it a freeze not a loan?
The Lib Dems are calling it a loan, to be paid back by working people, not a freeze.
Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey called for a "genuine freeze" of energy bills, saying it is "not right" that families and pensioners should be paying back a loan. He told BBC Breakfast on Tuesday: "What we're hearing from Downing Street, what you were referring to, isn't a freeze. It's a loan. "What they're saying is that families and pensioners should be paying this back for years to come. That's just not right. "We should be asking the oil and gas companies who are making tens of billions of pounds in profit they never expected to make because Putin invaded Ukraine, we should be asking them to pay some of that back so that we can afford to freeze people's bills without actually having the loan system that it's rumoured that Liz Truss wants." Asked if that is what he is expecting Ms Truss to introduce as leader, he said: "We just don't know, and this is my whole point. She's had weeks to tell us during the leadership election for the Tory party. And she didn't spell it out. "We put forward our alternative, our constructive alternative, which would be a genuine freeze on people's bills paid for by a one-off tax on the oil and gas companies who are making these super profits. That seems a fair approach."
There are two camps right now with different expectations of Liz’s policy.
You are in a different camp to me.
Then join me, and together we can rule the PB universe…
I don’t understand PB today, you should all be able to see the acute difference in the politics of a freeze, to protect working peoples money, and a loan to protect the energy industries windfall profits, using working peoples money.
By going with the energy industry scheme to freeze prices at current levels, Liz is merely plugging the gap between wholesale costs and what consumers pay - Truss is actually bailing out the Energy industry, protecting them from contributing their windfall, by loaning them the working peoples money.
And the difference between a plan that weights assistance more heavily to lower energy users and poorer homes whilst energy wasters and the more wealthy pay a bit more
Sorry, which is that?
The one where the £400 discount remains applied to all bills not cancelled as labour proposed.
But that cancels out doesn't it because Truss's cap is 400 and a bit higher?
The French would be very upset for you to say that. French national champions and all that.
Wasn't sure if it was 100% Francais, as I'd have to check more carefully - there have been so many mergers.
It's a long running, slowly evolved business jet line. Heritage back to the 1960s...
When the British plane industry was nationalised, it was forbidden to enter the business jet market. Because bad optics. Ironically, Concorde was the largest business jet ever built....
There is pretty much no difference between Labour’s and Truss’s energy policy, save that Labour wanted a windfall tax for optics, and are rather more interested in finding conservation measures.
Both effectively want to put it on the never-never, which btw, is the right thing to do.
In the sprit of PB debate, I disagree with you. In fact you are totally wrong.
Energy firms take out government-backed loans to freeze bills, the loans would have to be repaid over 10 to 20 years. And you are calling it a freeze not a loan?
The Lib Dems are calling it a loan, to be paid back by working people, not a freeze.
Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey called for a "genuine freeze" of energy bills, saying it is "not right" that families and pensioners should be paying back a loan. He told BBC Breakfast on Tuesday: "What we're hearing from Downing Street, what you were referring to, isn't a freeze. It's a loan. "What they're saying is that families and pensioners should be paying this back for years to come. That's just not right. "We should be asking the oil and gas companies who are making tens of billions of pounds in profit they never expected to make because Putin invaded Ukraine, we should be asking them to pay some of that back so that we can afford to freeze people's bills without actually having the loan system that it's rumoured that Liz Truss wants." Asked if that is what he is expecting Ms Truss to introduce as leader, he said: "We just don't know, and this is my whole point. She's had weeks to tell us during the leadership election for the Tory party. And she didn't spell it out. "We put forward our alternative, our constructive alternative, which would be a genuine freeze on people's bills paid for by a one-off tax on the oil and gas companies who are making these super profits. That seems a fair approach."
There are two camps right now with different expectations of Liz’s policy.
You are in a different camp to me.
Then join me, and together we can rule the PB universe…
I don’t understand PB today, you should all be able to see the acute difference in the politics of a freeze, to protect working peoples money, and a loan to protect the energy industries windfall profits, using working peoples money.
By going with the energy industry scheme to freeze prices at current levels, Liz is merely plugging the gap between wholesale costs and what consumers pay - Truss is actually bailing out the Energy industry, protecting them from contributing their windfall, by loaning them the working peoples money.
And the difference between a plan that weights assistance more heavily to lower energy users and poorer homes whilst energy wasters and the more wealthy pay a bit more
Sorry, which is that?
The one where the £400 discount remains applied to all bills not cancelled as labour proposed.
But that cancels out doesn't it because Truss's cap is 400 and a bit higher?
Well no. The proposed truss cap was ca 2500, thats average bills so lower end might be say 1250 p.a. Labour feeeze 1971, half that for lower end 985. Take 400 off the truss bill 850, 145 a year better off, but that reduces and reverses as you go further up towards and beyond average use. It encourages conservation and protects the lower end more
It seems the only response from Labour spokespersons today has been a windfall tax will pay
Will Labour or indeed anyone confirm just how much a windfall tax will raise as I believe it is around £8 billion at most and a one off
I’ll be straight with you Big G.
If it only costs £29B to cover the October and January jumps and the entire £29B comes from windfall tax, Ed Davey is absolutely right, it’s a freeze not Liz Truss loan.
More likely in my opinion, more than £29B needs to be poured into this, but where you and Truss are wrong, it's a matter of fairness. People are struggling at the moment. These companies have made profit that they never expected to make and therefore that redistribution is really important as part of the package. It is "unfair" for working-class people to bear the brunt of any energy company loan scheme that is being brought in by Liz Truss's incoming government.
That is where Truss and the Tory’s have got this spectacularly wrong.
The 29 billion does not come from the windfall tax
With respect that is fake news
With respect, It is "unfair" for working-class people to bear the brunt of any energy company loan scheme that is being brought in by Liz Truss's incoming government - redistribution is really important as part of the package, otherwise you have to admit Truss and the Tory’s have got this spectacularly wrong, don’t you?
I am challenging the impression that the windfall tax will raise more than £8 billion one off
It seems the only response from Labour spokespersons today has been a windfall tax will pay
Will Labour or indeed anyone confirm just how much a windfall tax will raise as I believe it is around £8 billion at most and a one off
Big G back on message. For how long?
No wonder your compadres down Llandudno Conservative Club call you “Bun-G”.
I am asking genuine questions, and by the way I remain a non member of the party and have never been in any conservative club at anytime anywhere
Now please answer the question
Conservative clubs are packed with non-Tories. They can be quite nice (although it varies a fair bit) and tend to be good value. I was a member of one at one time.
I think the manager of the Honiton one publicly endorsed the Lib Dems at the by-election. The Lib Dems had some fun with it but, in fact, that's not at all unusual and he may well not have been a Tory even when he took the job.
I do not mean to give a negative impression on con clubs, just I have not been in one
You've never been in a Conservative Club? I'm amazed. I can imagine some hipster from London saying this, but Con Clubs are a big of middle Britain. Not necessarily my cup of tea, being in the market for neither snooker nor low-level live entertainment, but I'll still end up in one every few years when someone hosts a party there or some such. Interestingly they still smell the same as they did when my parents used to drink in the local Con club in the 80s.
A friend's daughter was astonished when she realised at 16 that there was a link between the Conservative Party and Conservative Clubs. She just sort of assumed it was what you jooned when you were too old for guides or scouts.
There is pretty much no difference between Labour’s and Truss’s energy policy, save that Labour wanted a windfall tax for optics, and are rather more interested in finding conservation measures.
Both effectively want to put it on the never-never, which btw, is the right thing to do.
In the sprit of PB debate, I disagree with you. In fact you are totally wrong.
Energy firms take out government-backed loans to freeze bills, the loans would have to be repaid over 10 to 20 years. And you are calling it a freeze not a loan?
The Lib Dems are calling it a loan, to be paid back by working people, not a freeze.
Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey called for a "genuine freeze" of energy bills, saying it is "not right" that families and pensioners should be paying back a loan. He told BBC Breakfast on Tuesday: "What we're hearing from Downing Street, what you were referring to, isn't a freeze. It's a loan. "What they're saying is that families and pensioners should be paying this back for years to come. That's just not right. "We should be asking the oil and gas companies who are making tens of billions of pounds in profit they never expected to make because Putin invaded Ukraine, we should be asking them to pay some of that back so that we can afford to freeze people's bills without actually having the loan system that it's rumoured that Liz Truss wants." Asked if that is what he is expecting Ms Truss to introduce as leader, he said: "We just don't know, and this is my whole point. She's had weeks to tell us during the leadership election for the Tory party. And she didn't spell it out. "We put forward our alternative, our constructive alternative, which would be a genuine freeze on people's bills paid for by a one-off tax on the oil and gas companies who are making these super profits. That seems a fair approach."
There are two camps right now with different expectations of Liz’s policy.
You are in a different camp to me.
Then join me, and together we can rule the PB universe…
I don’t understand PB today, you should all be able to see the acute difference in the politics of a freeze, to protect working peoples money, and a loan to protect the energy industries windfall profits, using working peoples money.
By going with the energy industry scheme to freeze prices at current levels, Liz is merely plugging the gap between wholesale costs and what consumers pay - Truss is actually bailing out the Energy industry, protecting them from contributing their windfall, by loaning them the working peoples money.
And the difference between a plan that weights assistance more heavily to lower energy users and poorer homes whilst energy wasters and the more wealthy pay a bit more
Sorry, which is that?
The one where the £400 discount remains applied to all bills not cancelled as labour proposed.
But that cancels out doesn't it because Truss's cap is 400 and a bit higher?
Well no. The proposed truss cap was ca 2500, thats average bills so lower end might be say 1250 p.a. Labour feeeze 1971, half that for lower end 985. Take 400 off the truss bill 850, 145 a year better off, but that reduces and reverses as you go further up towards and beyond average use. It encourages conservation and protects the lower end more
First names of the last four finance ministers— France: Bruno, Michel, Pierre, François Germany: Christian, Olaf, Peter, Wolfgang Italy: Daniele, Roberto, Giovanni, Pier Carlo Britain: Kwasi, Nadhim, Rishi, Sajid
Whose finances are in best shape is perhaps the question to ask!
Debt as % GDP:
Italy: 151 France: 113 UK: 96 Germany: 69
Is that the measure that was UK under 40% in 2007 - before years of Austerity (for some) to bring it down! 🫣
Where would US be on that current list, if I have been paying attention, PBs St Bart the Pirate will comment here that 140% is actually no problem at all, only beyond that it goes squizzy.
So is St Bart the pirate actually right on this one, this is a pointless measure to use for economic health and strength? The Tory austerity years, the lasting impact of them in income divides, was not actually necessary?
????????
I have NEVER said that. In fact I've always said the exact opposite.
There is no specific debt to GDP number that "matters" but what matters far more is an overall look at the deficit, whether debt to GDP is going up or down, and where you are in the economic cycle.
You only know where you were in the "economic cycle" since it takes shape in retrospect.
Not true, a recession is a matter of record determined at the time, not in hindsight. Two consecutive quarters of negative growth. On average a recession occurs about once every eight to twelve years or so.
You can and do know how many years you are since the last recession as a matter of fact at the time. So eg in 2006/07 we were 15/16 years from the last recession and overdue a new one which then occurred the following year.
You know the past - all of the GDP fluctuations (eg when the last recession was) going back to when records began - but you don't know the equivalent for the future.
Also the fluctuations aren't of a fixed shape or size. Eg recessions are sometimes mild, sometimes severe, sometimes long, sometimes short, and they don't come along at predictable intervals like clockwork. Ditto with growth spurts.
Hence the notion that at a point in time you can with any precision whatsoever "know where you are in the economic cycle" is a bit of a nonsense.
You can't know exactly where you are in the cycle as in T-x days until next recession, but you absolutely can know how long since last one and be prepared for the next exogenous shock as and when it inevitably happens.
PPPPPP: Piss Poor Preparation leads to Piss Poor Performance.
There's no such thing as THE economic cycle, let alone one you can know in advance. What there are are fluctuations in GDP. Those in the past you know. Those in the future you don't. Sense you're being hampered in this conversation by a need to regurgitate the long discredited Tory Story on Gordon Brown.
It seems the only response from Labour spokespersons today has been a windfall tax will pay
Will Labour or indeed anyone confirm just how much a windfall tax will raise as I believe it is around £8 billion at most and a one off
Big G back on message. For how long?
No wonder your compadres down Llandudno Conservative Club call you “Bun-G”.
I am asking genuine questions, and by the way I remain a non member of the party and have never been in any conservative club at anytime anywhere
Now please answer the question
Conservative clubs are packed with non-Tories. They can be quite nice (although it varies a fair bit) and tend to be good value. I was a member of one at one time.
I think the manager of the Honiton one publicly endorsed the Lib Dems at the by-election. The Lib Dems had some fun with it but, in fact, that's not at all unusual and he may well not have been a Tory even when he took the job.
I do not mean to give a negative impression on con clubs, just I have not been in one
You've never been in a Conservative Club? I'm amazed. I can imagine some hipster from London saying this, but Con Clubs are a big of middle Britain. Not necessarily my cup of tea, being in the market for neither snooker nor low-level live entertainment, but I'll still end up in one every few years when someone hosts a party there or some such. Interestingly they still smell the same as they did when my parents used to drink in the local Con club in the 80s.
A friend's daughter was astonished when she realised at 16 that there was a link between the Conservative Party and Conservative Clubs. She just sort of assumed it was what you jooned when you were too old for guides or scouts.
Just as a point of interest since I was 16 I have only lived in Scotland and Wales so no I have not been in a conservative club
It seems the only response from Labour spokespersons today has been a windfall tax will pay
Will Labour or indeed anyone confirm just how much a windfall tax will raise as I believe it is around £8 billion at most and a one off
Big G back on message. For how long?
No wonder your compadres down Llandudno Conservative Club call you “Bun-G”.
I am asking genuine questions, and by the way I remain a non member of the party and have never been in any conservative club at anytime anywhere
Now please answer the question
Conservative clubs are packed with non-Tories. They can be quite nice (although it varies a fair bit) and tend to be good value. I was a member of one at one time.
I think the manager of the Honiton one publicly endorsed the Lib Dems at the by-election. The Lib Dems had some fun with it but, in fact, that's not at all unusual and he may well not have been a Tory even when he took the job.
I do not mean to give a negative impression on con clubs, just I have not been in one
You've never been in a Conservative Club? I'm amazed. I can imagine some hipster from London saying this, but Con Clubs are a big of middle Britain. Not necessarily my cup of tea, being in the market for neither snooker nor low-level live entertainment, but I'll still end up in one every few years when someone hosts a party there or some such. Interestingly they still smell the same as they did when my parents used to drink in the local Con club in the 80s.
A friend's daughter was astonished when she realised at 16 that there was a link between the Conservative Party and Conservative Clubs. She just sort of assumed it was what you jooned when you were too old for guides or scouts.
Just as a point of interest since I was 16 I have only lived in Scotland and Wales so no I have not been in a conservative club
Do they not have them in Scotland or Wales? I didn't know that.
It seems the only response from Labour spokespersons today has been a windfall tax will pay
Will Labour or indeed anyone confirm just how much a windfall tax will raise as I believe it is around £8 billion at most and a one off
Big G back on message. For how long?
No wonder your compadres down Llandudno Conservative Club call you “Bun-G”.
I am asking genuine questions, and by the way I remain a non member of the party and have never been in any conservative club at anytime anywhere
Now please answer the question
Conservative clubs are packed with non-Tories. They can be quite nice (although it varies a fair bit) and tend to be good value. I was a member of one at one time.
I think the manager of the Honiton one publicly endorsed the Lib Dems at the by-election. The Lib Dems had some fun with it but, in fact, that's not at all unusual and he may well not have been a Tory even when he took the job.
I do not mean to give a negative impression on con clubs, just I have not been in one
You've never been in a Conservative Club? I'm amazed. I can imagine some hipster from London saying this, but Con Clubs are a big of middle Britain. Not necessarily my cup of tea, being in the market for neither snooker nor low-level live entertainment, but I'll still end up in one every few years when someone hosts a party there or some such. Interestingly they still smell the same as they did when my parents used to drink in the local Con club in the 80s.
A friend's daughter was astonished when she realised at 16 that there was a link between the Conservative Party and Conservative Clubs. She just sort of assumed it was what you jooned when you were too old for guides or scouts.
Just as a point of interest since I was 16 I have only lived in Scotland and Wales so no I have not been in a conservative club
Do they not have them in Scotland or Wales? I didn't know that.
It seems the only response from Labour spokespersons today has been a windfall tax will pay
Will Labour or indeed anyone confirm just how much a windfall tax will raise as I believe it is around £8 billion at most and a one off
Big G back on message. For how long?
No wonder your compadres down Llandudno Conservative Club call you “Bun-G”.
I am asking genuine questions, and by the way I remain a non member of the party and have never been in any conservative club at anytime anywhere
Now please answer the question
Conservative clubs are packed with non-Tories. They can be quite nice (although it varies a fair bit) and tend to be good value. I was a member of one at one time.
I think the manager of the Honiton one publicly endorsed the Lib Dems at the by-election. The Lib Dems had some fun with it but, in fact, that's not at all unusual and he may well not have been a Tory even when he took the job.
I do not mean to give a negative impression on con clubs, just I have not been in one
You've never been in a Conservative Club? I'm amazed. I can imagine some hipster from London saying this, but Con Clubs are a big of middle Britain. Not necessarily my cup of tea, being in the market for neither snooker nor low-level live entertainment, but I'll still end up in one every few years when someone hosts a party there or some such. Interestingly they still smell the same as they did when my parents used to drink in the local Con club in the 80s.
A friend's daughter was astonished when she realised at 16 that there was a link between the Conservative Party and Conservative Clubs. She just sort of assumed it was what you jooned when you were too old for guides or scouts.
I won't join the local Con Club but my friend, secretary of the local Labour party, has! I've told him he has to sing the Red Flag three times after each visit!
Comments
It will probably hail next, with really big hailstones
Where TF is she, BTW?
When the British plane industry was nationalised, it was forbidden to enter the business jet market. Because bad optics. Ironically, Concorde was the largest business jet ever built....
Sky pundits soooo running out of things to say. Rigby opining that giving speeches in the pouring rain is not Liz's style.
Labour feeeze 1971, half that for lower end 985.
Take 400 off the truss bill 850, 145 a year better off, but that reduces and reverses as you go further up towards and beyond average use.
It encourages conservation and protects the lower end more
In the context of labour's offer it will not
Also Tory govt: Let's do speeches in the rain https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1567177944476389377
A friend's daughter was astonished when she realised at 16 that there was a link between the Conservative Party and Conservative Clubs. She just sort of assumed it was what you jooned when you were too old for guides or scouts.
https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar
Hint - Starmers isnt good
A Russian relative worked at a secret building in St Petersburg belonging to the Russian Navy, during the Cold War. Not allowed to be on maps etc.
On one occasion the tram driver belted out, "Stop for Building No. {insert number here}"
Everyone froze. For about a minute. Then all the Naval officers, GRU etc got off, and went to work....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46222026
"Since I was 25 years old and independent I have instructed my staff and secretaries. I have never used a computer in my life,"...
NEW THREAD
If not fake, such entitlement will be a big problem for the government. Furlough has fried everyone's brains.
Top rate tax payer. Needs far more support than those on benefits. Because you spend to your income.
There's some as per normal self-serving gormless wibble from a Green Party MSP:
With soaring inflation, skyrocketing bills and increasing rents, these are desperate times for tenants all across Scotland.”
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-announces-rent-freeze-to-help-tackle-cost-of-living-crisis-3832580
In fact Scottish Government published data show that rents in Scotland to February 2022 increased by 2.6% over 12 months, that is a real terms *cut* of 3.3%. They even provided a graph to help the Greens to understand it.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-housing-market-review-q1-2022/pages/4/
The real problem comes, I think, with buildings with communal provision of heating/water. When those bills skyrocket….