Russia has no understanding of the concept of good faith in anything. They only have military power, so the rest of the world needs to expend every effort possible to neutralise that power.
It's funny that we have difficulty understanding states who behave in this way. If it was an individual it would probably be described in the DSM as an antisocial behaviour disorder. They being people who lie cheat steal and see others simply as objects to exploit for their own gain. There are plenty of them in our prisons and you've probably had the misfortune to come across one or two in your own life.
Yet we seem to have real difficulty in ascribing such attitudes to states - as if deep down a country MUST be governed by some kind of grand theory of international relations. Perhaps it's a desire to romanticise nations and not realise that often they're just run by total sh*tbags.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
So completely failed to address the points made then in total. Just lost your temper instead and as usual when you are wrong insult your opponent by claiming they know nothing. A tactic you always use, often by claiming you are more intelligent when you obviously are not (although you didn't this time). A self defence mechanism I assume. I'll take that as a win.
Also I note you called me a remoaner. I also note when challenged on this before you claimed you only used it on those who want to rejoin. As you well know I am not one of those. So again wrong.
Also the EU did not overrule or ignore any referendums. Individual countries may have, but I am not aware of an EU referendum.
I mean is there any more you could have not wrong?
Wow. 410 not out for Sam Northeast. Leics. made 584 first innings and now need 211 to avoid an innings defeat.
Highest score by an English cricket player for 127 years. Ninth highest score of all time. Second highest first-class score by a player not to play Test cricket (though I suppose that could still change).
Incredible.
He’s played one day international I think, but not been near the test side, which is a bit odd as we’ve tried a lot of players recently!
Nope, never played for England in any format. Don't think he's even played for the Lions.
Wow. 410 not out for Sam Northeast. Leics. made 584 first innings and now need 211 to avoid an innings defeat.
Highest score by an English cricket player for 127 years. Ninth highest score of all time. Second highest first-class score by a player not to play Test cricket (though I suppose that could still change).
Incredible.
He’s played one day international I think, but not been near the test side, which is a bit odd as we’ve tried a lot of players recently!
Nope, never played for England in any format. Don't think he's even played for the Lions.
Northeast played for England Lions in 2018 against the West Indies A.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
This is nonsense. We always were free and independent. We left didn't we so we must have been. And where would you like to draw this line of freedom? Independence for Wales and Scotland? Independence for Surrey, my street, etc, etc. We choose or not to make these alliances to combine for our mutual benefit.
But fundamentally, your position in the freedom to leave is illogical. If freedom to leave was a pillar of freedom within the EU, then it cannot have been wrong for us to exercise that freedom.
If on the other hand, the EU had so metastasised within our systems of law, justice and all areas of life, that excising it was a practical impossibility, then the freedom to leave never existed meaningfully.
Wow. 410 not out for Sam Northeast. Leics. made 584 first innings and now need 211 to avoid an innings defeat.
Highest score by an English cricket player for 127 years. Ninth highest score of all time. Second highest first-class score by a player not to play Test cricket (though I suppose that could still change).
Incredible.
He’s played one day international I think, but not been near the test side, which is a bit odd as we’ve tried a lot of players recently!
Nope, never played for England in any format. Don't think he's even played for the Lions.
Northeast played for England Lions in 2018 against the West Indies A.
Are you sure? He didn't tour the West Indies and I can't find his name in the scorecards of either match in the home series.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Getting rid of Boris (All voters): Right 60 Mistake 27
Getting rid of Boris (Con voters only): Right 43 Mistake 49
Overwhelming support for Net Zero amongst All voters and Con voters.
Tories also do slightly better under Truss than Sunak, getting 38% with the latter and 36% with the former
You must be getting itchy feet!
I suspect the public polling on Sunak vs Truss is based on thinking they know about the former (extremely rich, tax issues, responsible for current economy etc) but knowing virtually nothing about Truss.
I genuinely feel for @HYUFD. It's going to be a conundrum for him working out how to support a Truss-led Tory party.
Similarly Big_G and a few other Tory-loyalist-Truss-haters on here.
I suspect 'at least they're not Labour' will figure highly in their explanations.
Oh, they will find their reasons. It's tribalism.
Correct. They'll be telling us how great Truss is in a few weeks.
Glass houses though horse. You were all for Corbyn, and now laud Starmer. There is nothing wrong with tribalism.
But I have in hindsight said how crap Corbyn was and how I was wrong - I do not see any similar level of admission from these folks.
As for Starmer, he needs to come up with some policies soon or he needs to go.
I voted for David M, I am not an always leftie in the Labour Party.
I think, though, that you are always Labour? And nothing wrong with that.
No I've voted Tory - and Lib Dem.
So, if it’s not too personal, when did you vote Tory and why?
Because I thought Labour had run out of ideas and needed to spend some time in opposition post Iraq
I voted Conservative in 2010, for similar reasons, but also believed that Cameron had in large part modernised what had indeed been the nasty party.
Once Cameron fell, that nastiness has recurred far worse. I cannot see myself voting Conservative again in the foreseeable future.
Yes I agree, I'd vote for Cameron now, possibly even over Starmer.
Regarding gender and children, I struggle to see what information a toddler can meaningfully convey about their gender identity. What does a boy or girl even mean to someone that age? Type of clothing or length of hair? Neither are gender-specific traits but just societal norms. There's no good reason a little boy can't have long hair or wear dresses, and choosing to do so isn't a meaningful indication of gender dysphoria.
My two year old currently identifies as a train. Just let kids be kids.
Indeed, which is why playing into their world, rather than correcting them, is the right thing to do.
The other interesting thing is that while two year olds have a fantastic imagination, they have typically not yet developed an ability to lie.
A four year old with chocolate all over their face might say with a straight face they haven't eaten the missing chocolate, a two year old would not as they haven't yet developed the cognitive reasoning required to be deceitful.
If they say they're a train, or a girl or boy, they're not being dishonest. In that moment, in their imagination, that is what they are.
Regarding gender and children, I struggle to see what information a toddler can meaningfully convey about their gender identity. What does a boy or girl even mean to someone that age? Type of clothing or length of hair? Neither are gender-specific traits but just societal norms. There's no good reason a little boy can't have long hair or wear dresses, and choosing to do so isn't a meaningful indication of gender dysphoria.
My two year old currently identifies as a train. Just let kids be kids.
Have you asked whether s/he is really a train, or playing pretend? Children are usually hyperaware of the difference.
I used to tell my daughter that she could be whatever she wanted to be, but I had to be a bit more specific after she asked whether she could be a zebra. She was actually quite upset until she fell asleep.
Regarding gender and children, I struggle to see what information a toddler can meaningfully convey about their gender identity. What does a boy or girl even mean to someone that age? Type of clothing or length of hair? Neither are gender-specific traits but just societal norms. There's no good reason a little boy can't have long hair or wear dresses, and choosing to do so isn't a meaningful indication of gender dysphoria.
My two year old currently identifies as a train. Just let kids be kids.
Indeed, which is why playing into their world, rather than correcting them, is the right thing to do.
The other interesting thing is that while two year olds have a fantastic imagination, they have typically not yet developed an ability to lie.
A four year old with chocolate all over their face might say with a straight face they haven't eaten the missing chocolate, a two year old would not as they haven't yet developed the cognitive reasoning required to be deceitful.
If they say they're a train, or a girl or boy, they're not being dishonest. In that moment, in their imagination, that is what they are.
Boris Johnson is four years old? That explains much.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
The low blood sugar Leon is a bit of a dick. Time for that smoke.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Probing, not seeking to wind up.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
The low blood sugar Leon is a bit of a dick. Time for that smoke.
I like him. Unpredictable
A roller coaster ride but I don't want to get off. Yet
Thanks for not putting me into the rejoiner list @Leon, I am sure you can then appreciate my criticisms of Brexit are in the spirit of trying to make it work
My brother survived a medical emergency on Tuesday (ambulance no go therefore needed a mate to take him in) then today has gone on holiday and taken 8 hours to get to France via Dover. Tory Brexit Britain.
Glad to hear the emergency was resolved. Tbh I’m fairly sure I recall stories before Brexit about queues at Dover and at airports during the great summer getaway. It’s been a thing for a long long time. Coupled with people needing to use holiday/travel vouchers from Covid times before they expire.
Brexit is done, and for sure it’s not perfect (far from) but it’s not responsible for everything.
Well it was responsible for me burning my toast this morning.
In what way? Distracted by the news?
I was jesting. As usual I actually agree with you; it is not responsible for everything.
There of course must be some extra delays. Ignoring the crap the lorry drivers have to go through the extra recording and stamping of each passport must add on a minute or two to each car which adds up when there are thousands. I went cycling in France at the height of the pandemic and it was seamless but then I was on a ferry with hardly any cars and as a cyclist you overtake the cars queueing and get to the passport control first and it is just you so the process was very quick. If you are the hundredth car each with 4 people and a dog I suspect passport control is more torturous.
No wonder it's so torturous for drivers what with all the cyclists that continually skip the queue rather than waiting their turn.
I was waiting for that one one Rob. I live in the Surrey Hills and the bikes are a nightmare so I sympathise. However it is rather smooth with a bike on a ferry. You get waved to the front getting on and off because you don't hold up any cars getting on or off. You are to one side and accelerate away faster than a car. The bikes go to the front of the queue while waiting to get on, then the front of the ferry. By the time I have faffed about when getting off some cars are in front of me but I cycle faster than them when leaving a ferry, so by the time I get to passport control I am either in the front or only behind a few cars. However even if behind cars we are usually taken to one side and dealt with separately and immediately as there are usually only about 10 bikes on each ferry.
On a bike is the only time I find passport control a pleasure. We are long gone before most people are off.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Probing, not seeking to wind up.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
Read the thread, accountant
I answered all this before. And spare me your respect, it would make me queasy
Here's my answer on Scottish indy v British indy
"There are two competing and ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner - or whenever - you have to persuade not me, but a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster"
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
I think the material change in circumstances argument given by Sturgeon would be a lot stronger if Cameron's Bloomberg speech had taken place AFTER the 2014 indy ref, rather than more than a year and a half before.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him how much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
I think the material change in circumstances argument given by Sturgeon would be a lot stronger if Cameron's Bloomberg speech had taken place AFTER the 2014 indy ref, rather than more than a year and a half before.
You need only remember the vigorous propaganda campaign by Better Together, as often demonstrated on PB with examples, to know that the assertion "stay in the UK is the only way toi stay in the EU) was a key element of the British nationalist campaign in 2014. It was, in part, aimed at EU residents in Scotland (who then were able to vote in the referendum).
Regarding gender and children, I struggle to see what information a toddler can meaningfully convey about their gender identity. What does a boy or girl even mean to someone that age? Type of clothing or length of hair? Neither are gender-specific traits but just societal norms. There's no good reason a little boy can't have long hair or wear dresses, and choosing to do so isn't a meaningful indication of gender dysphoria.
My two year old currently identifies as a train. Just let kids be kids.
Have you asked whether s/he is really a train, or playing pretend? Children are usually hyperaware of the difference.
I asked him just now and be confirmed he was a train, a blue one specifically.
He did have a bit grin on his face so there is a chance he's not being entirely serious.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
Sorry genuinely don't understand what you are driving at.
I excluded the people Scotland and NI because they line up with the other 27 countries in that they did not want to leave.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
I dunno, I thought the bit where I said
"Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to your hovels, and eat your oats"
kinda implied I was being a touch facetious. But hey ho
On the question of whether the EU is democratic or not, it is in my view a flawed democracy. Like the USA.
Yes it has elections, but it takes more than elections to be truly democratic. The issues determined by the EU Commission don't really get debated at EU elections all that well, and the EU elections don't determine the EU Commission all that well either.
With reforms the EU could be more democratic. Some of that could also end up with the EU being more powerful not less in determining laws.
The EU isn't yet a nation, and it doesn't yet have a demos, but it's evolving into one and that's all well and good so long as there's democratic checks along the way. Unfortunately some very sensible and modest reforms that Cameron proposed were rejected.
The ideal for me is that the Eurozone needs to evolve into a proper country, with a proper demos and proper democratic accountability. Over time that should probably happen and good luck to them as it does.
Continuing with this present half democratic halfway house is not ideal.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
Sorry genuinely don't understand what you are driving at.
I excluded the people Scotland and NI because they line up with the other 27 countries in that they did not want to leave.
There was a national vote. You can look at districts all you like, but it was never four nations voting separately.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I think they were referring to a lack of any sort of referendum on the various treaties, something that was more common on the continent.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I was referencing the public having a say in what the politicians decided, as happened in almost all EU nations e.g Lisbon treaty etc.
OT For all those who like quality war films there's one on Netlix called 'The Battle for the Sheldt' English title 'The Forgotten Battle'. It's huge for a Dutch made film and full of distinctive and unique European film qualities
(Apparently watched by 55 million on Netlix)
First time I've liked one of your posts in years, Roger.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I was referencing the public having a say in what the politicians decided, as happened in almost all EU nations e.g Lisbon treaty etc.
OK, but that was a failure of the UK government of the time, nothing to do with EU governance.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
I think the material change in circumstances argument given by Sturgeon would be a lot stronger if Cameron's Bloomberg speech had taken place AFTER the 2014 indy ref, rather than more than a year and a half before.
Plus the SNP previously wanted a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and voted against ratifying it in parliament.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I suspect @turbotubbs means we had no say in shaping the EU institutions, the Commission, Council, ECJ, etc. The undemocratic fundamentals. And that is true, but that is also largely our fault, we could have joined in the 1950s at the start and shaped it more to British liking, but we haughtily stood aside, and the French seized the opportunity to make it much more French, up to and including the lingo
(And good luck to them)
By the time we got on board it was formed in a way that is inimical to us, and our Common Law traditions, but the economic benefits meant we tolerated it, for quite a long time
To my mind, we either should have joined the EEC at the very beginning - or never joined at all
Both would have left us in a better place than we are now
Otherwise yes I agree that it is nonsense to say we didn't shape the EU in serious ways post-1975; we did, and the Single Market is one of them
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
Sorry genuinely don't understand what you are driving at.
I excluded the people Scotland and NI because they line up with the other 27 countries in that they did not want to leave.
There was a national vote. You can look at districts all you like, but it was never four nations voting separately.
Of course the decision was a UK one but let's not pretend that the fact that 2 of the 4 countries involved voted not to leave is irrelevant. It's part of the ongoing problem .
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I was referencing the public having a say in what the politicians decided, as happened in almost all EU nations e.g Lisbon treaty etc.
OK, but that was a failure of the UK government of the time, nothing to do with EU governance.
That’s a fair point. It feels like the British politicians didn’t trust th3 public to vote the right way.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
If that is what Tubbs was trying to say I agree with you entirely. It was such a stupid assertion that I thought I must have misunderstood the comment.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I suspect @turbotubbs means we had no say in shaping the EU institutions, the Commission, Council, ECJ, etc. The undemocratic fundamentals. And that is true, but that is also largely our fault, we could have joined in the 1950s at the start and shaped it more to British liking, but we haughtily stood aside, and the French seized the opportunity to make it much more French, up to and including the lingo
(And good luck to them)
By the time we got on board it was formed in a way that is inimical to us, and our Common Law traditions, but the economic benefits meant we tolerated it, for quite a long time
To my mind, we either should have joined the EEC at the very beginning - or never joined at all
Both would have left us in a better place than we are now
Otherwise yes I agree that it is nonsense to say we didn't shape the EU in serious ways post-1975; we did, and the Single Market is one of them
No, more the lack of referenda in the U.K., so that when we did get a say, the public said no.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
If that is what Tubbs was trying to say I agree with you entirely. It was such a stupid assertion that I thought I must have misunderstood the comment.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
If that is what Tubbs was trying to say I agree with you entirely. It was such a stupid assertion that I thought I must have misunderstood the comment.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Probing, not seeking to wind up.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
Read the thread, accountant
I answered all this before. And spare me your respect, it would make me queasy
Here's my answer on Scottish indy v British indy
"There are two competing and ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner - or whenever - you have to persuade not me, but a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster"
This doesn't square the circle I drew for you and asked that you try - try properly - to square. This is just the old yawny argument about when a Ref should be granted. Park that. It's not the point at issue.
Again -
Given 'national sovereignty' is so massively important to you that it pretty much mandated Brexit, even though we had national sovereignty within the EU, we'd just pooled some of it, why when it comes to Scotland, which does NOT have national sovereignty within the UK, do you have zero respect or empathy for the desire of many up there to separate? Why does even the thought of it rile you so?
Or more pithily, since I know you struggle follow long sentence constructions -
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I suspect @turbotubbs means we had no say in shaping the EU institutions, the Commission, Council, ECJ, etc. The undemocratic fundamentals. And that is true, but that is also largely our fault, we could have joined in the 1950s at the start and shaped it more to British liking, but we haughtily stood aside, and the French seized the opportunity to make it much more French, up to and including the lingo
(And good luck to them)
By the time we got on board it was formed in a way that is inimical to us, and our Common Law traditions, but the economic benefits meant we tolerated it, for quite a long time
To my mind, we either should have joined the EEC at the very beginning - or never joined at all
Both would have left us in a better place than we are now
Otherwise yes I agree that it is nonsense to say we didn't shape the EU in serious ways post-1975; we did, and the Single Market is one of them
No, more the lack of referenda in the U.K., so that when we did get a say, the public said no.
Fair enough, and Yes, absolutely right
The irony of Brexit is that one single referendum - if the europhiles had ever stopped being arrogant enough to grant one - at any point before 2016, would have sufficiently vented democratic resentment and eurosceptic anger, such that Brexit would never have happened
Instead they stoked the fires and accelerated the steamtrain, without a thought for the danger, until the boiler exploded and we crashed
One single tiny referendum, on Maastricht, say, or the Constitution, or Lisbon. But no. THEY KNEW BEST
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Probing, not seeking to wind up.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
Read the thread, accountant
I answered all this before. And spare me your respect, it would make me queasy
Here's my answer on Scottish indy v British indy
"There are two competing and ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner - or whenever - you have to persuade not me, but a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster"
This doesn't square the circle I drew for you and asked that you try - try properly - to square. This is just the old yawny argument about when a Ref should be granted. Park that. It's not the point at issue.
Again -
Given 'national sovereignty' is so massively important to you that it pretty much mandated Brexit, even though we had national sovereignty within the EU, we'd just pooled some of it, why when it comes to Scotland, which does NOT have national sovereignty within the UK, do you have zero respect or empathy for the desire of many up there to separate? Why does even the thought of it rile you so?
Or more pithily, since I know you struggle follow long sentence constructions -
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Probing, not seeking to wind up.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
Read the thread, accountant
I answered all this before. And spare me your respect, it would make me queasy
Here's my answer on Scottish indy v British indy
"There are two competing and ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner - or whenever - you have to persuade not me, but a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster"
This doesn't square the circle I drew for you and asked that you try - try properly - to square. This is just the old yawny argument about when a Ref should be granted. Park that. It's not the point at issue.
Again -
Given 'national sovereignty' is so massively important to you that it pretty much mandated Brexit, even though we had national sovereignty within the EU, we'd just pooled some of it, why when it comes to Scotland, which does NOT have national sovereignty within the UK, do you have zero respect or empathy for the desire of many up there to separate? Why does even the thought of it rile you so?
Or more pithily, since I know you struggle follow long sentence constructions -
Why do you LOVE Brexit and HATE Sindy?
Ears.
That’s easy. The old political divide - “who; whom”.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
Do you really believe this?
Try not to believe this. Honestly. It's borderline QAnon stuff. Don't go there
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
There's certainly a case for full membership of the EU, with near frictionless trade and a potential political leadership role across a bloc of over 400 million people, but that comes at a price and there are plenty of other options the UK can pursue as an alternative instead, which also come with a price.
I don't think it's reasonable to say that some are prima facie right, and others wrong.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
Do you really believe this?
Try not to believe this. Honestly. It's borderline QAnon stuff. Don't go there
I really do. Pay no heed to their words. Look at their actions, what they’ve done and continue to do since the referendum. What other possible conclusion can you draw?
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
Do you really believe this?
Try not to believe this. Honestly. It's borderline QAnon stuff. Don't go there
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
Oh, the contempt is mutual and sincere. Trust me
I don't have contempt for you. Not at all. Terrific poster. I just find your stuff on this topic to be infantile (for the reasons explained).
If you could try - try properly - to address the specific problem with your Brexit v Sindy views that I've taken the time and trouble to highlight all would be enlightened.
A slight move to Rishi. Favourite Liz Truss boosted to 1/2 at Bet365; Rishi 9/4 at Boylesports.
At the moment, I think I'll be voting Rishi because - as uninspiring as he is, and naïve on foreign policy - my mortgage risks becoming unaffordable under Truss and that's a chance I can't take for my family.
Tax cuts have value if they save me money. Higher interests rates will cost me far more, and I'm not voting to be worse off.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
After you said you were going to get fit the other day, I was reminded of this from a few years ago - the ultimate endurance race.
Four mile course, and you have an hour to complete it. Then go again at the top of the next hour, and continue every hour until you’re the last person left standing.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
Do you really believe this?
Try not to believe this. Honestly. It's borderline QAnon stuff. Don't go there
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
Do you really believe this?
Try not to believe this. Honestly. It's borderline QAnon stuff. Don't go there
Ha ha. It's all completely true. They lied. They don't give a shit. And they are power-hungry bastards. It's sad that you can't see it.
The SCourt is never going to agree to make a ruling, on some hypothetical piece of legislation from a devolved entity.
They need to pass the legislation first and then debate the legality of it. But the SG don’t want to do that, because their own Lord Advocate knows it’s completely illegal, and is required to say that before the SG legislation is passed in Scotland.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
Oh, the contempt is mutual and sincere. Trust me
I don't have contempt for you. Not at all. Terrific poster. I just find your stuff on this topic to be infantile (for the reasons explained).
If you could try - try properly - to address the specific problem with your Brexit v Sindy views that I've taken the time and trouble to highlight all would be enlightened.
The reason I have contempt for you (and I am afraid I do) is that you are clearly intelligent, yet you seem unable to comprehend how or why others might have equally or more intelligent opinions that fundamentally differ from yours. That would be acceptable - it happens - but you also seem unable or unwilling to even try to understand these opposing views, because - I suspect - you are so complacently happy with your own
You bought a whole load of leftwing thought by the yard in your 20s, you see no reason to renew it or change it. Like someone who bought a ton of IKEA furniture as a student which they keep because it is "still perfectly serviceable", even though the Billy bookcase has collapsed into powder and STIG The Table has three legs left
It's the narrow mind thing again
But still, at least you are on here daily and thus exposed to alternative thoughts even if you can't grasp them. That, I guess, shows a certain willingness. So I will dial down my "contempt" to "mild contempt". You're welcome
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I suspect @turbotubbs means we had no say in shaping the EU institutions, the Commission, Council, ECJ, etc. The undemocratic fundamentals. And that is true, but that is also largely our fault, we could have joined in the 1950s at the start and shaped it more to British liking, but we haughtily stood aside, and the French seized the opportunity to make it much more French, up to and including the lingo
(And good luck to them)
By the time we got on board it was formed in a way that is inimical to us, and our Common Law traditions, but the economic benefits meant we tolerated it, for quite a long time
To my mind, we either should have joined the EEC at the very beginning - or never joined at all
Both would have left us in a better place than we are now
Otherwise yes I agree that it is nonsense to say we didn't shape the EU in serious ways post-1975; we did, and the Single Market is one of them
No, more the lack of referenda in the U.K., so that when we did get a say, the public said no.
Fair enough, and Yes, absolutely right
The irony of Brexit is that one single referendum - if the europhiles had ever stopped being arrogant enough to grant one - at any point before 2016, would have sufficiently vented democratic resentment and eurosceptic anger, such that Brexit would never have happened
Instead they stoked the fires and accelerated the steamtrain, without a thought for the danger, until the boiler exploded and we crashed
One single tiny referendum, on Maastricht, say, or the Constitution, or Lisbon. But no. THEY KNEW BEST
I voted Leave because I didn't support the political vision for the European Union, and couldn't see that ever changing. It would have been fundamentally dishonest for me to vote to stay in. I knew another vote wouldn't be granted for a generation and so I approached my decision as my one and only chance.
That's a perfectly rational position to take; there are plenty of alternative models where the UK can undertake practical economic and political co-operation with our European neighbours but outwith an organisation we had no confidence in.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Probing, not seeking to wind up.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
Read the thread, accountant
I answered all this before. And spare me your respect, it would make me queasy
Here's my answer on Scottish indy v British indy
"There are two competing and ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner - or whenever - you have to persuade not me, but a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster"
This doesn't square the circle I drew for you and asked that you try - try properly - to square. This is just the old yawny argument about when a Ref should be granted. Park that. It's not the point at issue.
Again -
Given 'national sovereignty' is so massively important to you that it pretty much mandated Brexit, even though we had national sovereignty within the EU, we'd just pooled some of it, why when it comes to Scotland, which does NOT have national sovereignty within the UK, do you have zero respect or empathy for the desire of many up there to separate? Why does even the thought of it rile you so?
Or more pithily, since I know you struggle follow long sentence constructions -
Why do you LOVE Brexit and HATE Sindy?
Ears.
Because I am British
Now, please shove off
Ah. Because you're British! But this can't be the reason. Because I'm also British. Gee whiz, I am. Yet I can appreciate why Scotland might wish to be a sovereign nation state.
I can appreciate it even though absolutist unsullied national sovereignty is not so dear to me as to have made me vote Leave. Yet you - who say you did because it is - get mad at just the slimmest prospect of it for Scotland.
But anyway, I sense you don't like this sort of exchange so we can drop it if you like. I wasn't really enjoying it. It was like work.
The SCourt is never going to agree to make a ruling, on some hypothetical piece of legislation from a devolved entity.
They need to pass the legislation first and then debate the legality of it. But the SG don’t want to do that, because their own Lord Advocate knows it’s completely illegal, and is required to say that before the SG legislation is passed in Scotland.
1) The Lord Advocate thinks she can ask for a judgement without legislation under the Scotland Act. See her "concluding observations"
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
Oh, the contempt is mutual and sincere. Trust me
I don't have contempt for you. Not at all. Terrific poster. I just find your stuff on this topic to be infantile (for the reasons explained).
If you could try - try properly - to address the specific problem with your Brexit v Sindy views that I've taken the time and trouble to highlight all would be enlightened.
The reason I have contempt for you (and I am afraid I do) is that you are clearly intelligent, yet you seem unable to comprehend how or why others might have equally or more intelligent opinions that fundamentally differ from yours. That would be acceptable - it happens - but you also seem unable or unwilling to even try to understand these opposing views, because - I suspect - you are so complacently happy with your own
You bought a whole load of leftwing thought by the yard in your 20s, you see no reason to renew it or change it. Like someone who bought a ton of IKEA furniture as a student which they keep because it is "still perfectly serviceable", even though the Billy bookcase has collapsed into powder and STIG The Table has three legs left
It's the narrow mind thing again
But still, at least you are on here daily and thus exposed to alternative thoughts even if you can't grasp them. That, I guess, shows a certain willingness. So I will dial down my "contempt" to "mild contempt". You're welcome
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
Throwing off the yolk
The puns just white themselves
- Oh god and that was not on purpose from me either.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Probing, not seeking to wind up.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
Read the thread, accountant
I answered all this before. And spare me your respect, it would make me queasy
Here's my answer on Scottish indy v British indy
"There are two competing and ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner - or whenever - you have to persuade not me, but a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster"
This doesn't square the circle I drew for you and asked that you try - try properly - to square. This is just the old yawny argument about when a Ref should be granted. Park that. It's not the point at issue.
Again -
Given 'national sovereignty' is so massively important to you that it pretty much mandated Brexit, even though we had national sovereignty within the EU, we'd just pooled some of it, why when it comes to Scotland, which does NOT have national sovereignty within the UK, do you have zero respect or empathy for the desire of many up there to separate? Why does even the thought of it rile you so?
Or more pithily, since I know you struggle follow long sentence constructions -
Why do you LOVE Brexit and HATE Sindy?
Ears.
Because I am British
Now, please shove off
Ah. Because you're British! But this can't be the reason. Because I'm also British. Gee whiz, I am. Yet I can appreciate why Scotland might wish to be a sovereign nation state.
I can appreciate it even though absolutist unsullied national sovereignty is not so dear to me as to have made me vote Leave. Yet you - who say you did because it is - get mad at just the slimmest prospect of it for Scotland.
But anyway, I sense you don't like this sort of exchange so we can drop it if you like. I wasn't really enjoying it. It was like work.
A slight move to Rishi. Favourite Liz Truss boosted to 1/2 at Bet365; Rishi 9/4 at Boylesports.
At the moment, I think I'll be voting Rishi because - as uninspiring as he is, and naïve on foreign policy - my mortgage risks becoming unaffordable under Truss and that's a chance I can't take for my family.
Tax cuts have value if they save me money. Higher interests rates will cost me far more, and I'm not voting to be worse off.
Rishi should hammer this message. Truss means Minford and higher interest rates. She is dangerous as far as economics goes.
The problem is I guess that most of the Tory voting membership have paid off the mortgages and have savings.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
Brexit has made politics in this country matter more, which is exactly what its advocates claimed it would do.
You have a right to think it was a mistake, but it's a bit rich to complain about division while talking like that about people who have a different opinion.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Probing, not seeking to wind up.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
Read the thread, accountant
I answered all this before. And spare me your respect, it would make me queasy
Here's my answer on Scottish indy v British indy
"There are two competing and ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner - or whenever - you have to persuade not me, but a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster"
This doesn't square the circle I drew for you and asked that you try - try properly - to square. This is just the old yawny argument about when a Ref should be granted. Park that. It's not the point at issue.
Again -
Given 'national sovereignty' is so massively important to you that it pretty much mandated Brexit, even though we had national sovereignty within the EU, we'd just pooled some of it, why when it comes to Scotland, which does NOT have national sovereignty within the UK, do you have zero respect or empathy for the desire of many up there to separate? Why does even the thought of it rile you so?
Or more pithily, since I know you struggle follow long sentence constructions -
Why do you LOVE Brexit and HATE Sindy?
Ears.
Because I am British
Now, please shove off
Ah. Because you're British! But this can't be the reason. Because I'm also British. Gee whiz, I am. Yet I can appreciate why Scotland might wish to be a sovereign nation state.
I can appreciate it even though absolutist unsullied national sovereignty is not so dear to me as to have made me vote Leave. Yet you - who say you did because it is - get mad at just the slimmest prospect of it for Scotland.
But anyway, I sense you don't like this sort of exchange so we can drop it if you like. I wasn't really enjoying it. It was like work.
Maybe revisit middle of next week or so.
It's not worth it, mate!
I think if I keep at it for months and years and decades he'll eventually crack and start bawling like a baby, adopt the foetal position and say "Ok, I know, I know, it was stupid and wrong".
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Probing, not seeking to wind up.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
Read the thread, accountant
I answered all this before. And spare me your respect, it would make me queasy
Here's my answer on Scottish indy v British indy
"There are two competing and ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner - or whenever - you have to persuade not me, but a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster"
What is your view on Wales - we did not 'sign up' for UK - we were forecefully annexed.
Comments
Yet we seem to have real difficulty in ascribing such attitudes to states - as if deep down a country MUST be governed by some kind of grand theory of international relations. Perhaps it's a desire to romanticise nations and not realise that often they're just run by total sh*tbags.
Also I note you called me a remoaner. I also note when challenged on this before you claimed you only used it on those who want to rejoin. As you well know I am not one of those. So again wrong.
Also the EU did not overrule or ignore any referendums. Individual countries may have, but I am not aware of an EU referendum.
I mean is there any more you could have not wrong?
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
If on the other hand, the EU had so metastasised within our systems of law, justice and all areas of life, that excising it was a practical impossibility, then the freedom to leave never existed meaningfully.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/west-indies-a-in-england-2018-1145657/match-results
He may have been in the squad, but it doesn't look like he played.
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
The other interesting thing is that while two year olds have a fantastic imagination, they have typically not yet developed an ability to lie.
A four year old with chocolate all over their face might say with a straight face they haven't eaten the missing chocolate, a two year old would not as they haven't yet developed the cognitive reasoning required to be deceitful.
If they say they're a train, or a girl or boy, they're not being dishonest. In that moment, in their imagination, that is what they are.
That explains much.
Time for that smoke.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
A roller coaster ride but I don't want to get off. Yet
On a bike is the only time I find passport control a pleasure. We are long gone before most people are off.
I answered all this before. And spare me your respect, it would make me queasy
Here's my answer on Scottish indy v British indy
"There are two competing and ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner - or whenever - you have to persuade not me, but a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster"
He did have a bit grin on his face so there is a chance he's not being entirely serious.
I excluded the people Scotland and NI because they line up with the other 27 countries in that they did not want to leave.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
"Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to your hovels, and eat your oats"
kinda implied I was being a touch facetious. But hey ho
Yes it has elections, but it takes more than elections to be truly democratic. The issues determined by the EU Commission don't really get debated at EU elections all that well, and the EU elections don't determine the EU Commission all that well either.
With reforms the EU could be more democratic. Some of that could also end up with the EU being more powerful not less in determining laws.
The EU isn't yet a nation, and it doesn't yet have a demos, but it's evolving into one and that's all well and good so long as there's democratic checks along the way. Unfortunately some very sensible and modest reforms that Cameron proposed were rejected.
The ideal for me is that the Eurozone needs to evolve into a proper country, with a proper demos and proper democratic accountability. Over time that should probably happen and good luck to them as it does.
Continuing with this present half democratic halfway house is not ideal.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Thanks - I'll watch that.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/snp-to-push-for-eu-treaty-referendum-961377
(And good luck to them)
By the time we got on board it was formed in a way that is inimical to us, and our Common Law traditions, but the economic benefits meant we tolerated it, for quite a long time
To my mind, we either should have joined the EEC at the very beginning - or never joined at all
Both would have left us in a better place than we are now
Otherwise yes I agree that it is nonsense to say we didn't shape the EU in serious ways post-1975; we did, and the Single Market is one of them
If that is what Tubbs was trying to say I agree with you entirely. It was such a stupid assertion that I thought I must have misunderstood the comment.
Again -
Given 'national sovereignty' is so massively important to you that it pretty much mandated Brexit, even though we had national sovereignty within the EU, we'd just pooled some of it, why when it comes to Scotland, which does NOT have national sovereignty within the UK, do you have zero respect or empathy for the desire of many up there to separate? Why does even the thought of it rile you so?
Or more pithily, since I know you struggle follow long sentence constructions -
Why do you LOVE Brexit and HATE Sindy?
Ears.
The irony of Brexit is that one single referendum - if the europhiles had ever stopped being arrogant enough to grant one - at any point before 2016, would have sufficiently vented democratic resentment and eurosceptic anger, such that Brexit would never have happened
Instead they stoked the fires and accelerated the steamtrain, without a thought for the danger, until the boiler exploded and we crashed
One single tiny referendum, on Maastricht, say, or the Constitution, or Lisbon. But no. THEY KNEW BEST
1.46 Liz Truss 68%
3.15 Rishi Sunak 32%
Next Conservative leader
1.5 Liz Truss 67%
3.05 Rishi Sunak 33%
A slight move to Rishi. Favourite Liz Truss boosted to 1/2 at Bet365; Rishi 9/4 at Boylesports.
The puns just white themselves
Now, please shove off
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
The old political divide - “who; whom”.
Try not to believe this. Honestly. It's borderline QAnon stuff. Don't go there
Hope wins arguments – not fear
Robert Peston" (£)
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-liz-truss-learned-from-the-brexit-referendum
I don't think it's reasonable to say that some are prima facie right, and others wrong.
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1550830583940583425
If you could try - try properly - to address the specific problem with your Brexit v Sindy views that I've taken the time and trouble to highlight all would be enlightened.
Tax cuts have value if they save me money. Higher interests rates will cost me far more, and I'm not voting to be worse off.
Four mile course, and you have an hour to complete it. Then go again at the top of the next hour, and continue every hour until you’re the last person left standing.
Oh, and really, really well written.
https://www.si.com/more-sports/2019/12/04/big-dogs-backyard-ultra-marathon
Meanwhile, the SNP will make their own case. (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20369182.scottish-independence-snp-apply-intervene-supreme-court-case/)
They need to pass the legislation first and then debate the legality of it. But the SG don’t want to do that, because their own Lord Advocate knows it’s completely illegal, and is required to say that before the SG legislation is passed in Scotland.
You bought a whole load of leftwing thought by the yard in your 20s, you see no reason to renew it or change it. Like someone who bought a ton of IKEA furniture as a student which they keep because it is "still perfectly serviceable", even though the Billy bookcase has collapsed into powder and STIG The Table has three legs left
It's the narrow mind thing again
But still, at least you are on here daily and thus exposed to alternative thoughts even if you can't grasp them. That, I guess, shows a certain willingness. So I will dial down my "contempt" to "mild contempt". You're welcome
That's a perfectly rational position to take; there are plenty of alternative models where the UK can undertake practical economic and political co-operation with our European neighbours but outwith an organisation we had no confidence in.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I can appreciate it even though absolutist unsullied national sovereignty is not so dear to me as to have made me vote Leave. Yet you - who say you did because it is - get mad at just the slimmest prospect of it for Scotland.
But anyway, I sense you don't like this sort of exchange so we can drop it if you like. I wasn't really enjoying it. It was like work.
Maybe revisit middle of next week or so.
2) It may not be unlawful. There is nothing in the Scotland Act stopping the SG asking the people of Scotland what they think abvout independence, as long as the referendum is advisory (and therefore political). Adam Tomkins has a good article on this: https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1550495996815319042?s=20&t=c8TdX57URDNguBrPLTdqvQ
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
The problem is I guess that most of the Tory voting membership have paid off the mortgages and have savings.
You have a right to think it was a mistake, but it's a bit rich to complain about division while talking like that about people who have a different opinion.
Changing the BoE mandate wrt monetary policy
Unfunded tax cuts
Provoking a possible trade war with our biggest trading partner
And that WILL be worth it.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?