TUD posts quite a lot of interesting stuff. There may have been a bit of a relapse into nat outrage since Nicola took up the claymore of independence again, but I am sure that will calm down in due course.
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
I am not arguing about the tech, if the magic trick is good / useful.
I am stating the BBC is factually wrong here. The crucial point is the BBC article isn't true. and thus makes it sound like the guy has been fired incorrectly. It is not self-aware. The guy is a very weird dude who appears to have got into a bit of a love affair with the chat bot to the extent he believes it really is aware and has feelings, to the extent he has gone and broken company policy and thus been fired.
You ask it if it is alive, it says yes and gives you a load of blurb about why it is. Another person logs on and asks if it not alive and it says yes and gives you a load of blurb about whit it isn't alive. It isn't consistent about its views even at the same time.
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
You need to get a grip.
You what? You read that tweet, by Stonewall, and you reaction is that am the one that needs to get a grip?
Yes - I find nothing in that tweet concerning at all. I don't think nurseries etc shouldn't be reinforcing gender roles or identity or anything like that.
It derives from this article in Metro
‘After [my 4 year old girl] been attending for a few weeks, she said to me again she was a boy. But then she looked troubled and added that her teacher told her she’s a girl, that she’s always a girl.
The experience of being told that had lingered, following her into her home life where she had always felt safe and accepted.
I suspect her teachers don’t think she’s ‘old enough’ for gender nonconformity, despite published research confirming that children as young as two to three recognise their gender, and can identify their own transness.’
This mad woman literally believes a tiny child can know their ‘transness’. Age 2. And thus live therefrom as a different gender. When my kids were two they thought they were fire engines or dragons or they lived as a mouse under the stairs
And where is this ‘research’? No link. Oddly
Eh? So the kid is feeling confused about their gender but the nursery teacher has rubbished their feelings and now the kid is feeling even more confused?
Who are you angry at again?
Guardian journo Oliver Burkeman summarises the article better than me
From the piece: • 4yo is comfortable referred to as a girl, expresses discomfort when called anything else • Author themselves refers to 4yo as a girl • Been a while since 4yo has mentioned gender stuff
--> Conclusion: 4yo is being taught to "fear her mind, her very self"
===
It’s a neurotic, confused mother projecting her fears onto a normally shame-shifting toddler. And possibly doing grave damage
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
Nothing illegal in any of that.
If a two year old girl says they're a boy, or vice versa, they ought to be supported not chastised.
For many it might just be a phase. For some it won't be. Love and support is needed throughout.
That's a false dichotomy. There's a world of a difference between letting someone express themselves as they want and reinforcing the idea that they are in the 'wrong' body.
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
You need to get a grip.
You what? You read that tweet, by Stonewall, and you reaction is that am the one that needs to get a grip?
Yes - I find nothing in that tweet concerning at all. I don't think nurseries etc shouldn't be reinforcing gender roles or identity or anything like that.
It derives from this article in Metro
‘After [my 4 year old girl] been attending for a few weeks, she said to me again she was a boy. But then she looked troubled and added that her teacher told her she’s a girl, that she’s always a girl.
The experience of being told that had lingered, following her into her home life where she had always felt safe and accepted.
I suspect her teachers don’t think she’s ‘old enough’ for gender nonconformity, despite published research confirming that children as young as two to three recognise their gender, and can identify their own transness.’
This mad woman literally believes a tiny child can know their ‘transness’. Age 2. And thus live therefrom as a different gender. When my kids were two they thought they were fire engines or dragons or they lived as a mouse under the stairs
And where is this ‘research’? No link. Oddly
Some children might know their transness from age 2. Others might not.
When your children thought they were a fire engine did their nursery teacher say "no you're not" or play along? Why should that be any different to a girl saying they're a boy?
"Step into their world" is good advice for young children and elderly people with dementia. If its a phase they'll grow out of it. No need to torment them along the way.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
I am not arguing about the tech, I am stating the BBC is factually wrong here. The crucial point is the BBC article isn't true. and thus makes it sound like the guy has been fired incorrectly. It is not self-aware. The guy is a very weird dude who appears to have got into a bit of a love affair with the chat bot to the extent he believes it really is aware and has feelings, to the extent he has gone and broken company policy and thus been fired.
You ask it if it is alive, it says yes and gives you a load of blurb about why it is. Another person logs on and asks if it not alive and it says yes and gives you a load of blurb about whit it isn't alive. It isn't consistent about its views even at the same time.
Pretty sure this is a spoof but just a teeny quiver of doubt remains.. Anyhow, a think tank called The Thought Cauldron is excellent, very Chris Morris.
Clearly a spoof.
The last thing we should be doing is negotiating with Russia. Anyone who says that isn't serious.
Bloody Ukes negotiating with Russia over grain exports. Madness!
Explosions have rocked a key Ukrainian port just a day after Kyiv and Moscow reached a landmark deal to allow the resumption of grain exports.
Two missiles hit the port city of Odesa in the early hours of Saturday morning, Ukraine's military said.
Blaming Russia, Ukraine's air force chief said grain stores at the port were deliberately targeted.
Under the terms of Friday's deal, Russia agreed not to target ports while grain shipments are in transit.
I can see the flaw in that agreement that Russia is (ab)using. Grain in a store isn't moving so isn't in transit.
Yeah, and they've hit the port so it'll be harder to move grain in the future...
As an aside, there are rumours that the Russians agreed to this in return for Lithuania allowing movement to Kaliningrad. Lithuania lifted their ban at pretty much the same time the deal was inked.
I wonder if Lithuania will reinforce the ban again....
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
Nothing illegal in any of that.
If a two year old girl says they're a boy, or vice versa, they ought to be supported not chastised.
For many it might just be a phase. For some it won't be. Love and support is needed throughout.
That's a false dichotomy. There's a world of a difference between letting someone express themselves as they want and reinforcing the idea that they are in the 'wrong' body.
Of course there is but that's not what the quote is about.
The quote is about a girl saying they're a boy and being told they're wrong, they're a girl. No need to do that. If a girl said they're a unicorn would you say "no you're not, you're a human"?
Step into their world, support them with love. If it's a stage they'll grow out of it, but love and support them along the way.
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
Nothing illegal in any of that.
If a two year old girl says they're a boy, or vice versa, they ought to be supported not chastised.
For many it might just be a phase. For some it won't be. Love and support is needed throughout.
That's a false dichotomy. There's a world of a difference between letting someone express themselves as they want and reinforcing the idea that they are in the 'wrong' body.
Of course there is but that's not what the quote is about.
The quote is about a girl saying they're a boy and being told they're wrong, they're a girl. No need to do that. If a girl said they're a unicorn would you say "no you're not, you're a human"?
Step into their world, support them with love. If it's a stage they'll grow out of it, but love and support them along the way.
The problem is they’re not being allowed to ‘grow out of it’, they’re being given affirmative support and then medical intervention, at an age when they have no idea of what’s really going on.
Sunak: "If we are to deliver on the promise of Brexit, then we're going to need someone who actually understands Brexit, believes in Brexit, voted for Brexit,"
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
You need to get a grip.
You what? You read that tweet, by Stonewall, and you reaction is that am the one that needs to get a grip?
Yes - I find nothing in that tweet concerning at all. I don't think nurseries etc shouldn't be reinforcing gender roles or identity or anything like that.
It derives from this article in Metro
‘After [my 4 year old girl] been attending for a few weeks, she said to me again she was a boy. But then she looked troubled and added that her teacher told her she’s a girl, that she’s always a girl.
The experience of being told that had lingered, following her into her home life where she had always felt safe and accepted.
I suspect her teachers don’t think she’s ‘old enough’ for gender nonconformity, despite published research confirming that children as young as two to three recognise their gender, and can identify their own transness.’
This mad woman literally believes a tiny child can know their ‘transness’. Age 2. And thus live therefrom as a different gender. When my kids were two they thought they were fire engines or dragons or they lived as a mouse under the stairs
And where is this ‘research’? No link. Oddly
Some children might know their transness from age 2. Others might not.
When your children thought they were a fire engine did their nursery teacher say "no you're not" or play along? Why should that be any different to a girl saying they're a boy?
"Step into their world" is good advice for young children and elderly people with dementia. If its a phase they'll grow out of it. No need to torment them along the way.
I don't think 2 year old are really aware of gender at all. They play very similarly if left to their own devices, and are unaware of other differences such as ethnicity or disability. That awareness doesn't really come until older at 4-5ish and doesn't develop into intolerance or bullying until 8-9 years or so.
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
Nothing illegal in any of that.
If a two year old girl says they're a boy, or vice versa, they ought to be supported not chastised.
For many it might just be a phase. For some it won't be. Love and support is needed throughout.
That's a false dichotomy. There's a world of a difference between letting someone express themselves as they want and reinforcing the idea that they are in the 'wrong' body.
Of course there is but that's not what the quote is about.
The quote is about a girl saying they're a boy and being told they're wrong, they're a girl. No need to do that. If a girl said they're a unicorn would you say "no you're not, you're a human"?
Step into their world, support them with love. If it's a stage they'll grow out of it, but love and support them along the way.
The problem is they’re not being allowed to ‘grow out of it’, they’re being given affirmative support and then medical intervention, at an age when they have no idea of what’s really going on.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
Nothing illegal in any of that.
If a two year old girl says they're a boy, or vice versa, they ought to be supported not chastised.
For many it might just be a phase. For some it won't be. Love and support is needed throughout.
That's a false dichotomy. There's a world of a difference between letting someone express themselves as they want and reinforcing the idea that they are in the 'wrong' body.
Of course there is but that's not what the quote is about.
The quote is about a girl saying they're a boy and being told they're wrong, they're a girl. No need to do that. If a girl said they're a unicorn would you say "no you're not, you're a human"?
Step into their world, support them with love. If it's a stage they'll grow out of it, but love and support them along the way.
The problem is they’re not being allowed to ‘grow out of it’, they’re being given affirmative support and then medical intervention, at an age when they have no idea of what’s really going on.
That's a different issue to the quote about two years olds.
Being given medical intervention at that age I'd oppose, but I'd also oppose telling people at that age they're wrong.
Kids will be kids, let them grow up. If a girl wants to say she's a boy, or vice versa, let them. Tomorrow they might be a fire truck or a unicorn. If they're still saying they're a boy or a girl for years, then it might be time to get medical advice, but let them be theirselves until then.
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
Nothing illegal in any of that.
If a two year old girl says they're a boy, or vice versa, they ought to be supported not chastised.
For many it might just be a phase. For some it won't be. Love and support is needed throughout.
That's a false dichotomy. There's a world of a difference between letting someone express themselves as they want and reinforcing the idea that they are in the 'wrong' body.
Of course there is but that's not what the quote is about.
The quote is about a girl saying they're a boy and being told they're wrong, they're a girl. No need to do that. If a girl said they're a unicorn would you say "no you're not, you're a human"?
Step into their world, support them with love. If it's a stage they'll grow out of it, but love and support them along the way.
The problem is they’re not being allowed to ‘grow out of it’, they’re being given affirmative support and then medical intervention, at an age when they have no idea of what’s really going on.
That's a different issue to the quote about two years olds.
Being given medical intervention at that age I'd oppose, but I'd also oppose telling people at that age they're wrong.
Kids will be kids, let them grow up. If a girl wants to say she's a boy, or vice versa, let them. Tomorrow they might be a fire truck or a unicorn. If they're still saying they're a boy or a girl for years, then it might be time to get medical advice, but let them be theirselves until then.
This is the calm and rational take. Not the moral panic take.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
Nothing illegal in any of that.
If a two year old girl says they're a boy, or vice versa, they ought to be supported not chastised.
For many it might just be a phase. For some it won't be. Love and support is needed throughout.
That's a false dichotomy. There's a world of a difference between letting someone express themselves as they want and reinforcing the idea that they are in the 'wrong' body.
Of course there is but that's not what the quote is about.
The quote is about a girl saying they're a boy and being told they're wrong, they're a girl. No need to do that. If a girl said they're a unicorn would you say "no you're not, you're a human"?
Step into their world, support them with love. If it's a stage they'll grow out of it, but love and support them along the way.
The problem is they’re not being allowed to ‘grow out of it’, they’re being given affirmative support and then medical intervention, at an age when they have no idea of what’s really going on.
That's a different issue to the quote about two years olds.
Being given medical intervention at that age I'd oppose, but I'd also oppose telling people at that age they're wrong.
Kids will be kids, let them grow up. If a girl wants to say she's a boy, or vice versa, let them. Tomorrow they might be a fire truck or a unicorn. If they're still saying they're a boy or a girl for years, then it might be time to get medical advice, but let them be theirselves until then.
This is the calm and rational take. Not the moral panic take.
"Moral panic" is a silly and non-useful expression, but what has a poster's individual "take" got to do with anything? If powerful and well funded parties are advocating immediate irreversible affirmation of the "you are a unicorn" case, with medical intervention, is not that something to be concerned ("have a moral panic") about, just because Bart thinks different?
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.
I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday
You need to get a grip.
You what? You read that tweet, by Stonewall, and you reaction is that am the one that needs to get a grip?
Yes - I find nothing in that tweet concerning at all. I don't think nurseries etc shouldn't be reinforcing gender roles or identity or anything like that.
It derives from this article in Metro
‘After [my 4 year old girl] been attending for a few weeks, she said to me again she was a boy. But then she looked troubled and added that her teacher told her she’s a girl, that she’s always a girl.
The experience of being told that had lingered, following her into her home life where she had always felt safe and accepted.
I suspect her teachers don’t think she’s ‘old enough’ for gender nonconformity, despite published research confirming that children as young as two to three recognise their gender, and can identify their own transness.’
This mad woman literally believes a tiny child can know their ‘transness’. Age 2. And thus live therefrom as a different gender. When my kids were two they thought they were fire engines or dragons or they lived as a mouse under the stairs
And where is this ‘research’? No link. Oddly
Some children might know their transness from age 2. Others might not.
When your children thought they were a fire engine did their nursery teacher say "no you're not" or play along? Why should that be any different to a girl saying they're a boy?
"Step into their world" is good advice for young children and elderly people with dementia. If its a phase they'll grow out of it. No need to torment them along the way.
I don't think 2 year old are really aware of gender at all. They play very similarly if left to their own devices, and are unaware of other differences such as ethnicity or disability. That awareness doesn't really come until older at 4-5ish and doesn't develop into intolerance or bullying until 8-9 years or so.
Well, @foxy clearly you haven’t read the Stonewall ‘research’ which says kids as young as 2 can be aware, not only of gender, but of ‘transness’
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
I will never believe that a machine can be self-aware, no matter how clever it is at making it appear that it can be.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Don't engage, he's probably had a skinful already.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because they’re still in the EU, taking laws from the unelected in Brussels.
If they use their right to leave, they’ll have regained sovereignerty too.
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
I will never believe that a machine can be self-aware, no matter how clever it is at making it appear that it can be.
Yes, but that is not a rational position: you are saying that no evidence will ever persuade you (or even be considered by you).
Think about your grounds for thinking that I am self-aware (if you do). Even if you met me in the flesh and confirmed that I seem to be a meat construct of the same species as you, so what?
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
I will never believe that a machine can be self-aware, no matter how clever it is at making it appear that it can be.
What if it’s talking to you via a screen with a totally convincing human face? Then you just won’t know if it’s man or machine. Hence the simple brilliance of the Turing Test
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
Not so simple.
1 This individual presents as self aware and furthermore actually is. This is different from presenting as self aware, and as every self aware person knows, 'real self awareness' is not 'gobbledegook'.
2 Imagine a different culture without the same scientific assumptions; my paper copy of the works of Shakespeare gives every appearance of being self aware in that it can effortlessly transmit a complex of information to others under certain conditions, just like people can. This primitive seeming is to us obviously not self aware, despite the illusion. Advanced AI is just refined versions of this. The issue of whether it is actually self aware remains a question.
3 It was obvious to David Hume that animals are self aware, while many of his contemporaries did not think so. Thinking so is more or less universal in our culture now.
4 Perhaps we need to stay open minded and see how it all gets on. Meanwhile the precautionary principle is a good idea. Not something we are good at.
Just to stir the porridge pot, who thinks these policers of silhouettes are fckng mental, and who thinks that they're raising valid concerns about the vile terf bashing oppression of a profile with a big nose?
Regarding Brexit, I think it's a mistake for Brexit supporters to seek out 'opportunities' so zealously, and a mistake for Brexit opponents to insist that we must do so. Brexit has given the UK Government more powers - these are tools in the box. They come in handy when you need to build a shed or put some shelves up, not when you go about the house drilling holes in everything because you now have a drill. The world will provide plenty of situations where autonomy and the capacity (and potentially the need) for independent action are valuable assets; we don't need to seek them out.
When we first left the EU, I suggested not negotiating an FTA with Europe, or with any other territory at all, for 5 years, as a 'cooling off' period whilst we got used to trading as a third country. This would have reduced expectations greatly, 'taken back control' of our borders, probably reduced exports to (but also imports from) the EU, and made both parties more willing to negotiate a good FTA that eliminated the necessary obstacles. It would have involved a hard border in Northern Ireland, but I wouldn't have added physical infrastructure.
Just to stir the porridge pot, who thinks these policers of silhouettes are fckng mental, and who thinks that they're raising valid concerns about the vile terf bashing oppression of a profile with a big nose?
L to R is see that as male gammon, Caucasian woman, African woman. It isn't very good.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
...................Osborne may have froze many wages while keeping the triple lock but he cut the NI jobs tax (from Labours presecheduled rise) and increased income tax thresholds in a low inflation environment so that work paid. ...............
These were policies more or less forced on the Coalition Government by the Lib Dems. Please stop re-writing our history for us, Mr Roberts.
I'm not. Why it was done was not the question, that it was done is all I said. It was the right thing to do.
Anyway philosophically I've always been split between the Tories and the Lib Dems. The 2010-15 Parliament was great in my eyes. I am happy to say the Lib Dems brought some very good ideas to the table.
The biggest problem with the Lib Dems in office is they became utterly ashamed and abashed of everything they did instead of standing up proud of their record.
Our positions do not seem to be all that far apart then, Mr Roberts.
I cannot help wondering, though, if there is some as yet undisclosed history somewhere in the background.
The Conservative Party was at the time a complete mess, totally divided. Cameron had done what he could to modernise their image, though whether this was real change or just marketing is another question. The fact is that Cameron had enormous difficulties with his hard-liners, who often rebelled against government policy.
The Lib Dems brought forward policies which the Conservatives fought against tooth and nail, but they were pushed through by the Lib Dems and proved not only successful but popular. Meanwhile, the Conservative policies that were pushed through were unpopular.
When the time came for a general election, the consensus now is that both Cameron and Clegg would have been happy with a continuation of the coalition. Then comes the bit for which I have no evidence whatsoever - but it would explain what happened. The two party leaders agreed that they would allow the Conservatives to take the credit for the good and popular policies, while the Lib Dems would do their best to defend the unpopular bits. This is what happened, in any case, so perhaps I am not entirely wrong in thinking that this was the plan.
What happened in practice was that unprincipled Tory strategists, who wanted to undermine both Cameron and the Coalition saw their chance to weigh in on Lib Dem-held seats. The rest is history. We have been suffering ever since then from the most reactionary, dictatorial government in our history.
This is now only just unravelling. And the turmoil in the Conservative ranks is reflected in their current internal election. The Conservatives do not really know what they are for.
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
Not so simple.
1 This individual presents as self aware and furthermore actually is. This is different from presenting as self aware, and as every self aware person knows, 'real self awareness' is not 'gobbledegook'.
2 Imagine a different culture without the same scientific assumptions; my paper copy of the works of Shakespeare gives every appearance of being self aware in that it can effortlessly transmit a complex of information to others under certain conditions, just like people can. This primitive seeming is to us obviously not self aware, despite the illusion. Advanced AI is just refined versions of this. The issue of whether it is actually self aware remains a question.
3 It was obvious to David Hume that animals are self aware, while many of his contemporaries did not think so. Thinking so is more or less universal in our culture now.
4 Perhaps we need to stay open minded and see how it all gets on. Meanwhile the precautionary principle is a good idea. Not something we are good at.
This is largely nonsense, sorry
We might all be in a simulation. We might not have free will. No one truly understands consciousness on even a basic level. As for animals being self aware, are they? A dog? A wasp? An oyster? A fungus? A bacterium? A virus? This really is not settled science which is ‘universally accepted’
So when Liz “no detail” Truss says she’s going to repeal all “remaining EU laws” what does she actually mean?
What does it matter? As long as she says the words the selectorate want to hear then she will win.
If Johnsonism taught anything as a political philosophy, it is "Lie today to get to tomorrow. And keep doing it"
It matters because I’ve got to suffer through it.
I have got to suffer through it too, but the evidence to date is that they do not give a Tinker's d*mn about people like us. It is a naked power grab married to a grasping selectorate. The only good thing about it is that the graspers are slowly marching into care homes and coffins and with a bit of luck the Tory Party will implode electorally. Then perhaps the rest of us can start clearing up the mess they made.
I think you should know that people have been saying that ever since 1846. And so far it has never happened, or at best, happened fleetingly.
A friend of mine confidently predicts the same thing, but he was a bit stumped when I pointed out people become more conservative and less inclined to change their views as they age - like Corbyn (he didn’t like that parallel, I might add)!
There was an interesting point made by a poster recently that people do not move right with age, but rather retain their ideas from their youth, while the world shifts around them.
Hence the Conservative party has now embraced diversity culture and that immigrants do assimilate while maintaining their own cultures alongside, as demonstrated by this leader race.
The selfishness and hedonism of the ageing boomers shows that too, in the desire for low taxation of them, and for others to pay the bill.
We see it too with the alternative lifestyles of the Gen X as they age, becoming mainstream, so Glasto is now a bigger and more significant event than the Proms.
What is thought to be Right Wing shifts over time, the puritanical, social authoriarianism, hard money/hard work ethos of Thatcher reflected her own provincial youth in the forties and fifties Midlands, but is history now.
I find it a bit arrogant how it's assumed that moving leftwards is good and moving to the right is bad. Obviously people will left-wing opinions will always believe this is true because it suits them.
Interestingly, I've noticed that some left-wingers in this country seem to be more right-wing on crime and punishment than they were 20 or 30 years ago. You hear them calling for longer prison sentences for certain crimes, which is something that never used to happen a few years ago.
If you re-read what I wrote, you would see that I didn't say that. I said that people tend to keep the ideas and social views of when they were young, while the world shifts around them. I did not state that direction of shift.
Indeed I think in many ways the young are quite right wing economically, and often unwilling to pay taxes to support the elderly etc, not keen on state delivery of services such as the BBC or even NHS etc.
I think that they don’t see why they should pay for anything that doesn’t benefit them directly. Right wing or just entitled?
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
Not so simple.
1 This individual presents as self aware and furthermore actually is. This is different from presenting as self aware, and as every self aware person knows, 'real self awareness' is not 'gobbledegook'.
2 Imagine a different culture without the same scientific assumptions; my paper copy of the works of Shakespeare gives every appearance of being self aware in that it can effortlessly transmit a complex of information to others under certain conditions, just like people can. This primitive seeming is to us obviously not self aware, despite the illusion. Advanced AI is just refined versions of this. The issue of whether it is actually self aware remains a question.
3 It was obvious to David Hume that animals are self aware, while many of his contemporaries did not think so. Thinking so is more or less universal in our culture now.
4 Perhaps we need to stay open minded and see how it all gets on. Meanwhile the precautionary principle is a good idea. Not something we are good at.
You can't make claims about "every self aware person" because you have insight into at most one self aware person, which is you. If you think "made of meat like me and capable in principle of interbreeding with me, therefore also self aware like me" is a strong argument, I don't.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
This is nonsense. We always were free and independent. We left didn't we so we must have been. And where would you like to draw this line of freedom? Independence for Wales and Scotland? Independence for Surrey, my street, etc, etc. We choose or not to make these alliances to combine for our mutual benefit.
The anti depressant brouhaha Sackler and the opioids The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’
It’s not great
You are becoming Plato Mk.2
Which one? The wise old philosopher or the far right nutjob?
(allegedly since both before my time)
The Late Ms Plato of this parish. She was not always mad and did have some very sound shoe-related opinions.
Ah ok. Well, new pair of Vans for me the other week. Will now be wearing them non-stop until I need a new pair of Vans.
The anti depressant brouhaha Sackler and the opioids The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’
It’s not great
You are becoming Plato Mk.2
Which one? The wise old philosopher or the far right nutjob?
(allegedly since both before my time)
The Late Ms Plato of this parish. She was not always mad and did have some very sound shoe-related opinions.
Ah ok. Well, new pair of Vans for me the other week. Will now be wearing them non-stop until I need a new pair of Vans.
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
I will never believe that a machine can be self-aware, no matter how clever it is at making it appear that it can be.
Yes, but that is not a rational position: you are saying that no evidence will ever persuade you (or even be considered by you).
Think about your grounds for thinking that I am self-aware (if you do). Even if you met me in the flesh and confirmed that I seem to be a meat construct of the same species as you, so what?
It is the test of other things. If physicalism is true then in principle the artificial creation of awareness must be possible, for awareness would be in fact a configuration of matter in possession of a dual aspect. What nature can produce by accident we can produce by careful work.
If physicalism isn't true then it is not plausible, or much less so, that we can artificially create awareness either deliberately or accidentally.
FWIW I believe physicalism isn't true (on entirely other grounds), but will be more persuaded I am wrong if it is reasonably clear that awareness is a construct of the 'physics' universe.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
The anti depressant brouhaha Sackler and the opioids The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’
It’s not great
You are becoming Plato Mk.2
Which one? The wise old philosopher or the far right nutjob?
(allegedly since both before my time)
The Late Ms Plato of this parish. She was not always mad and did have some very sound shoe-related opinions.
Ah ok. Well, new pair of Vans for me the other week. Will now be wearing them non-stop until I need a new pair of Vans.
Vans, the most Centrist of Centrist Dad shoes.....I also got myself a new pair the other week too.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
'The desire of Scots for independence' is a weasel term. In the same language, may I remind you of the clearly expressed 'Desire of Scots for membership of the United Kingdom' as recently as 8 years ago.
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
The why is easy too - once gays got equal rights to marry, the trans stuff was the next thing on the list of Big Lobbying Charity.
"The buggers are legal now ... what more are they after?"
The problem is, gay rights never collide with any other rights. In a way we should recriminalise homosexual activity because it gives the libertarians a lovely big target to be libertarian about. The rational position on trans is You can be as trans as you fucking like, with unlimited support from the NHS and protection under anti discrimination legislation, BUT ALSO the right of women to be safe from rape and to compete on level playing fields, and of children not to be manipulated and experimented on.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
'The desire of Scots for independence' is a weasel term. In the same language, may I remind you of the clearly expressed 'Desire of Scots for membership of the United Kingdom' as recently as 8 years ago.
Perhaps, but the desire for it in some is completely understandable. Let's not say it isn't because we don't share it.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
I think if you think Brexit was reasonable, then it follows Scottish independence is too, if the nation votes for it. What I am against is the seeming game of constantly seeking a referendum until you get the ‘right’ answer. In the Scottish case it’s fair to say that Brexit changed things, but then there would always be something. Clearly no Parliament binds it’s successors but perhaps an independence vote should be tied to a no new referendum for 20 years pledge?
The anti depressant brouhaha Sackler and the opioids The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’
It’s not great
You are becoming Plato Mk.2
Which one? The wise old philosopher or the far right nutjob?
(allegedly since both before my time)
The Late Ms Plato of this parish. She was not always mad and did have some very sound shoe-related opinions.
Ah ok. Well, new pair of Vans for me the other week. Will now be wearing them non-stop until I need a new pair of Vans.
Vans, the most Centrist of Centrist Dad shoes.....I also got myself a new pair the other week too.
Hey mine aren't centrist dad - they have a funky pattern on them.
The anti depressant brouhaha Sackler and the opioids The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’
It’s not great
You are becoming Plato Mk.2
Which one? The wise old philosopher or the far right nutjob?
(allegedly since both before my time)
The Late Ms Plato of this parish. She was not always mad and did have some very sound shoe-related opinions.
Ah ok. Well, new pair of Vans for me the other week. Will now be wearing them non-stop until I need a new pair of Vans.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
Not so simple.
1 This individual presents as self aware and furthermore actually is. This is different from presenting as self aware, and as every self aware person knows, 'real self awareness' is not 'gobbledegook'.
2 Imagine a different culture without the same scientific assumptions; my paper copy of the works of Shakespeare gives every appearance of being self aware in that it can effortlessly transmit a complex of information to others under certain conditions, just like people can. This primitive seeming is to us obviously not self aware, despite the illusion. Advanced AI is just refined versions of this. The issue of whether it is actually self aware remains a question.
3 It was obvious to David Hume that animals are self aware, while many of his contemporaries did not think so. Thinking so is more or less universal in our culture now.
4 Perhaps we need to stay open minded and see how it all gets on. Meanwhile the precautionary principle is a good idea. Not something we are good at.
You can't make claims about "every self aware person" because you have insight into at most one self aware person, which is you. If you think "made of meat like me and capable in principle of interbreeding with me, therefore also self aware like me" is a strong argument, I don't.
If I can't make claims about the awareness status of others, then I can't make claims about the moral status of others, and I certainly shouldn't begin therefore to make claims, even in principle, about the moral status of those who torture children for fun. Solipsism is the easiest argument to make, and the hardest argument to live by.
Russia has no understanding of the concept of good faith in anything. They only have military power, so the rest of the world needs to expend every effort possible to neutralise that power.
No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
Oh look, a point misser.
If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.
Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
Not so simple.
1 This individual presents as self aware and furthermore actually is. This is different from presenting as self aware, and as every self aware person knows, 'real self awareness' is not 'gobbledegook'.
2 Imagine a different culture without the same scientific assumptions; my paper copy of the works of Shakespeare gives every appearance of being self aware in that it can effortlessly transmit a complex of information to others under certain conditions, just like people can. This primitive seeming is to us obviously not self aware, despite the illusion. Advanced AI is just refined versions of this. The issue of whether it is actually self aware remains a question.
3 It was obvious to David Hume that animals are self aware, while many of his contemporaries did not think so. Thinking so is more or less universal in our culture now.
4 Perhaps we need to stay open minded and see how it all gets on. Meanwhile the precautionary principle is a good idea. Not something we are good at.
You can't make claims about "every self aware person" because you have insight into at most one self aware person, which is you. If you think "made of meat like me and capable in principle of interbreeding with me, therefore also self aware like me" is a strong argument, I don't.
If I can't make claims about the awareness status of others, then I can't make claims about the moral status of others, and I certainly shouldn't begin therefore to make claims, even in principle, about the moral status of those who torture children for fun. Solipsism is the easiest argument to make, and the hardest argument to live by.
Wrong, morality can be and indeed is enforced at a purely behavioural level. We neither punish people for unrealised dreams of torturing children, nor treat them leniently if they torture children but only in a half hearted sort of way.
...................Osborne may have froze many wages while keeping the triple lock but he cut the NI jobs tax (from Labours presecheduled rise) and increased income tax thresholds in a low inflation environment so that work paid. ...............
These were policies more or less forced on the Coalition Government by the Lib Dems. Please stop re-writing our history for us, Mr Roberts.
I'm not. Why it was done was not the question, that it was done is all I said. It was the right thing to do.
Anyway philosophically I've always been split between the Tories and the Lib Dems. The 2010-15 Parliament was great in my eyes. I am happy to say the Lib Dems brought some very good ideas to the table.
The biggest problem with the Lib Dems in office is they became utterly ashamed and abashed of everything they did instead of standing up proud of their record.
Our positions do not seem to be all that far apart then, Mr Roberts.
I cannot help wondering, though, if there is some as yet undisclosed history somewhere in the background.
The Conservative Party was at the time a complete mess, totally divided. Cameron had done what he could to modernise their image, though whether this was real change or just marketing is another question. The fact is that Cameron had enormous difficulties with his hard-liners, who often rebelled against government policy.
The Lib Dems brought forward policies which the Conservatives fought against tooth and nail, but they were pushed through by the Lib Dems and proved not only successful but popular. Meanwhile, the Conservative policies that were pushed through were unpopular.
When the time came for a general election, the consensus now is that both Cameron and Clegg would have been happy with a continuation of the coalition. Then comes the bit for which I have no evidence whatsoever - but it would explain what happened. The two party leaders agreed that they would allow the Conservatives to take the credit for the good and popular policies, while the Lib Dems would do their best to defend the unpopular bits. This is what happened, in any case, so perhaps I am not entirely wrong in thinking that this was the plan.
What happened in practice was that unprincipled Tory strategists, who wanted to undermine both Cameron and the Coalition saw their chance to weigh in on Lib Dem-held seats. The rest is history. We have been suffering ever since then from the most reactionary, dictatorial government in our history.
This is now only just unravelling. And the turmoil in the Conservative ranks is reflected in their current internal election. The Conservatives do not really know what they are for.
Sorry but I think that's a real rewriting of history.
There is a lot of natural similarity between what could be called the Orange Book Lib Dems and the "dry, socially liberal" Tories.
Clegg and Cameron could work well together because they were similar.
The Tories didn't fight tooth and nail against all LD policies. In many areas there was similar alignment. The Tories opposed Labours Job Tax rise even before the election. The Lib Dems wanted taxes on jobs cutting before the election. The Tories welcome cutting taxes where viable and think work should pay. Alignment here post election was able to be negotiated and not just done because of divisions, there was serious overlap.
The notion that at election time that Clegg chose to let Cameron take credit, or Tory strategists did anything wrong, is unjustified complaining.
Cameron sought credit and he was unabashedly saying he had a record he was proud of and should continue.
Clegg didn't seek credit as he was worried he'd lost his left wing so tried to distance the party from his own record. In doing so, he also lost his right wing as his voters on the right thought that if they wanted the policies to continue they needed to vote Tory.
If Clegg and co hadn't acted so ashamed of their record they might have saved half of their seats, rather than facing a wipeout.
"Google has fired one of its engineers who said the company's artificial intelligence system has feelings.
Last month, Blake Lemoine went public with his theory that Google's language technology is sentient and should therefore have its "wants" respected. Google, plus several AI experts, denied the claims and on Friday the company confirmed he had been sacked. Mr Lemoine told the BBC he is getting legal advice, and declined to comment further."
My brother survived a medical emergency on Tuesday (ambulance no go therefore needed a mate to take him in) then today has gone on holiday and taken 8 hours to get to France via Dover. Tory Brexit Britain.
"Google has fired one of its engineers who said the company's artificial intelligence system has feelings.
Last month, Blake Lemoine went public with his theory that Google's language technology is sentient and should therefore have its "wants" respected. Google, plus several AI experts, denied the claims and on Friday the company confirmed he had been sacked. Mr Lemoine told the BBC he is getting legal advice, and declined to comment further."
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because they’re still in the EU, taking laws from the unelected in Brussels.
If they use their right to leave, they’ll have regained sovereignerty too.
They choose to. That makes it democratic. Re unelected Brussels see my other post. It is not so.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
Brexit, like Trumpism, is for a very significant chunk, if not quite the majority of their supporters, about imposing their own beliefs on reality, rather than accepting the problems with reality and working out how we can make things better. Logically this approach makes little sense, but emotionally, if there is little we can do to improve things quickly anyway, then shifting our beliefs about reality can be a quite attractive partial fix.
My brother survived a medical emergency on Tuesday (ambulance no go therefore needed a mate to take him in) then today has gone on holiday and taken 8 hours to get to France via Dover. Tory Brexit Britain.
Glad to hear the emergency was resolved. Tbh I’m fairly sure I recall stories before Brexit about queues at Dover and at airports during the great summer getaway. It’s been a thing for a long long time. Coupled with people needing to use holiday/travel vouchers from Covid times before they expire.
Brexit is done, and for sure it’s not perfect (far from) but it’s not responsible for everything.
"Liz Truss’s team is frantically distancing themselves from her economics guru tonight after he said her tax cuts could result in interest rates of up to 7 per cent.
Professor Patrick Minford, who was named by the Tory leadership frontrunner as endorsing her fiscal strategy, said higher rates would be a “good thing” and more expensive mortgages would be “part of the adjustment”.
However, several mortgage experts warned this would lead to further annual payments on the average mortgage of about £700 a month, crippling household finances.
Former chancellor Norman Lamont also told i it would not be a “good thing” to see interest rates go as high as 7 per cent and said it would be “interesting” to see if Truss agreed with the claims.
The Truss campaign was trying to distance themselves from Professor Minford last night, saying he had no “official role” with her campaign – despite the Foreign Secretary citing his influence as recently as Thursday."
Following the Mordaunt playbook I see - "No I never said he was an influence. How dare you point to my statement last Thursday saying the opposite. This is a brutal campaign to undermine me. It's not fair to point to things I've said. I am the People's Choice."
Bart was saying how wonderful Minford was yesterday, oh well guess he needs re-programming
No, Minford is great, he thinks for himself and doesn't fall into herding of 364 economists can't be wrong variety. I respect that. 👍
Everything he says should be taken with a pinch of salt of course, but that applies to literally everyone on the planet. No human is infallible.
To believe anything Minford says just because he said it is the same fallacy as believing anything the herd says just because they said it.
As it happens, I think Minford is right on this issue. In what he actually said, not how some on the media are spinning it.
Older than Biden, and his analysis hasn’t aged as well.
My brother survived a medical emergency on Tuesday (ambulance no go therefore needed a mate to take him in) then today has gone on holiday and taken 8 hours to get to France via Dover. Tory Brexit Britain.
Glad to hear the emergency was resolved. Tbh I’m fairly sure I recall stories before Brexit about queues at Dover and at airports during the great summer getaway. It’s been a thing for a long long time. Coupled with people needing to use holiday/travel vouchers from Covid times before they expire.
Brexit is done, and for sure it’s not perfect (far from) but it’s not responsible for everything.
Well it was responsible for me burning my toast this morning.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
My brother survived a medical emergency on Tuesday (ambulance no go therefore needed a mate to take him in) then today has gone on holiday and taken 8 hours to get to France via Dover. Tory Brexit Britain.
Glad to hear the emergency was resolved. Tbh I’m fairly sure I recall stories before Brexit about queues at Dover and at airports during the great summer getaway. It’s been a thing for a long long time. Coupled with people needing to use holiday/travel vouchers from Covid times before they expire.
Brexit is done, and for sure it’s not perfect (far from) but it’s not responsible for everything.
Well it was responsible for me burning my toast this morning.
Regarding gender and children, I struggle to see what information a toddler can meaningfully convey about their gender identity. What does a boy or girl even mean to someone that age? Type of clothing or length of hair? Neither are gender-specific traits but just societal norms. There's no good reason a little boy can't have long hair or wear dresses, and choosing to do so isn't a meaningful indication of gender dysphoria.
My two year old currently identifies as a train. Just let kids be kids.
“Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.
LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”
A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall
We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists
It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015
Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
"... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."
Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?
In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else
But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
The why is easy too - once gays got equal rights to marry, the trans stuff was the next thing on the list of Big Lobbying Charity.
"The buggers are legal now ... what more are they after?"
The problem is, gay rights never collide with any other rights. In a way we should recriminalise homosexual activity because it gives the libertarians a lovely big target to be libertarian about. The rational position on trans is You can be as trans as you fucking like, with unlimited support from the NHS and protection under anti discrimination legislation, BUT ALSO the right of women to be safe from rape and to compete on level playing fields, and of children not to be manipulated and experimented on.
I agree with that position. I support an easier transition process and a default of inclusion with exceptions where justified, eg elite sports and certain womens spaces.
Not sure about no conflict when it comes to gay rights. You and I might not see any but plenty others did and some still do. Eg vs religious freedom.
"Google has fired one of its engineers who said the company's artificial intelligence system has feelings.
Last month, Blake Lemoine went public with his theory that Google's language technology is sentient and should therefore have its "wants" respected. Google, plus several AI experts, denied the claims and on Friday the company confirmed he had been sacked. Mr Lemoine told the BBC he is getting legal advice, and declined to comment further."
Also, was he sacked for saying this thing was sentient when google thinks it isn't, or when google thinks it is? Or for being a dork?
I imagine the grounds for dismissal was talking to the press at all about internal Google affairs without prior permission from Google PR.
As an aside, on the veracity of his claims: this particular individual strikes me as the kind of person who probably believe the stripper really likes him. That he believed that a pile of linear algebra trained to riff on your prompt is sentient because it said so when he asked it is not entirely surprising.
Perhaps I’m revealing my own prejudices here though!
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
I was reading an interview with Jon Anderson of Yes about the making of their album Close to the Edge. He said they were influenced by Wendy Carlos’s album Sonic Seasonings, so I went down a rabbit hole and was reading about Carlos. Carlos transitioned at a time when the debate was less inflamed in some ways, having surgery in 1972 and coming out in 1979. Carlos says she first became aware of her gender dysphoria when she was around 5-6.
Russia has no understanding of the concept of good faith in anything. They only have military power, so the rest of the world needs to expend every effort possible to neutralise that power.
Well looking at the PR video, Private Johnson is now well trained and at a loose end....
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
My brother survived a medical emergency on Tuesday (ambulance no go therefore needed a mate to take him in) then today has gone on holiday and taken 8 hours to get to France via Dover. Tory Brexit Britain.
Glad to hear the emergency was resolved. Tbh I’m fairly sure I recall stories before Brexit about queues at Dover and at airports during the great summer getaway. It’s been a thing for a long long time. Coupled with people needing to use holiday/travel vouchers from Covid times before they expire.
Brexit is done, and for sure it’s not perfect (far from) but it’s not responsible for everything.
Well it was responsible for me burning my toast this morning.
In what way? Distracted by the news?
I was jesting. As usual I actually agree with you; it is not responsible for everything.
There of course must be some extra delays. Ignoring the crap the lorry drivers have to go through the extra recording and stamping of each passport must add on a minute or two to each car which adds up when there are thousands. I went cycling in France at the height of the pandemic and it was seamless but then I was on a ferry with hardly any cars and as a cyclist you overtake the cars queueing and get to the passport control first and it is just you so the process was very quick. If you are the hundredth car each with 4 people and a dog I suspect passport control is more torturous.
Regarding gender and children, I struggle to see what information a toddler can meaningfully convey about their gender identity. What does a boy or girl even mean to someone that age? Type of clothing or length of hair? Neither are gender-specific traits but just societal norms. There's no good reason a little boy can't have long hair or wear dresses, and choosing to do so isn't a meaningful indication of gender dysphoria.
My two year old currently identifies as a train. Just let kids be kids.
Have you asked whether s/he is really a train, or playing pretend? Children are usually hyperaware of the difference.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu tryingI to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
The obsession with Newent is strong this day.
I haven't had a drink for three days (an unusual gap for me). It's part of my Intense Weight Loss Summer Campaign
Total sobriety seems to have made me MORE manic, you'll be glad to hear. Hence the Newenting
I may smoke a cheeky blunt tonight, to take the edge off
Wow. 410 not out for Sam Northeast. Leics. made 584 first innings and now need 211 to avoid an innings defeat.
Highest score by an English cricket player for 127 years. Ninth highest score of all time. Second highest first-class score by a player not to play Test cricket (though I suppose that could still change).
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
My brother survived a medical emergency on Tuesday (ambulance no go therefore needed a mate to take him in) then today has gone on holiday and taken 8 hours to get to France via Dover. Tory Brexit Britain.
Glad to hear the emergency was resolved. Tbh I’m fairly sure I recall stories before Brexit about queues at Dover and at airports during the great summer getaway. It’s been a thing for a long long time. Coupled with people needing to use holiday/travel vouchers from Covid times before they expire.
Brexit is done, and for sure it’s not perfect (far from) but it’s not responsible for everything.
Well it was responsible for me burning my toast this morning.
In what way? Distracted by the news?
I was jesting. As usual I actually agree with you; it is not responsible for everything.
There of course must be some extra delays. Ignoring the crap the lorry drivers have to go through the extra recording and stamping of each passport must add on a minute or two to each car which adds up when there are thousands. I went cycling in France at the height of the pandemic and it was seamless but then I was on a ferry with hardly any cars and as a cyclist you overtake the cars queueing and get to the passport control first and it is just you so the process was very quick. If you are the hundredth car each with 4 people and a dog I suspect passport control is more torturous.
No wonder it's so torturous for drivers what with all the cyclists that continually skip the queue rather than waiting their turn.
Regarding gender and children, I struggle to see what information a toddler can meaningfully convey about their gender identity. What does a boy or girl even mean to someone that age? Type of clothing or length of hair? Neither are gender-specific traits but just societal norms. There's no good reason a little boy can't have long hair or wear dresses, and choosing to do so isn't a meaningful indication of gender dysphoria.
My two year old currently identifies as a train. Just let kids be kids.
Anyone who objects to your two year old identifying as a train is clearly trainsphobic.
My brother survived a medical emergency on Tuesday (ambulance no go therefore needed a mate to take him in) then today has gone on holiday and taken 8 hours to get to France via Dover. Tory Brexit Britain.
Glad to hear the emergency was resolved. Tbh I’m fairly sure I recall stories before Brexit about queues at Dover and at airports during the great summer getaway. It’s been a thing for a long long time. Coupled with people needing to use holiday/travel vouchers from Covid times before they expire.
Brexit is done, and for sure it’s not perfect (far from) but it’s not responsible for everything.
Well it was responsible for me burning my toast this morning.
In what way? Distracted by the news?
I was jesting. As usual I actually agree with you; it is not responsible for everything.
There of course must be some extra delays. Ignoring the crap the lorry drivers have to go through the extra recording and stamping of each passport must add on a minute or two to each car which adds up when there are thousands. I went cycling in France at the height of the pandemic and it was seamless but then I was on a ferry with hardly any cars and as a cyclist you overtake the cars queueing and get to the passport control first and it is just you so the process was very quick. If you are the hundredth car each with 4 people and a dog I suspect passport control is more torturous.
Ha, thought you were! In that vein I assume that’s why my cricket was called off today too, bloody Brexit!
Wow. 410 not out for Sam Northeast. Leics. made 584 first innings and now need 211 to avoid an innings defeat.
Highest score by an English cricket player for 127 years. Ninth highest score of all time. Second highest first-class score by a player not to play Test cricket (though I suppose that could still change).
Incredible.
He’s played one day international I think, but not been near the test side, which is a bit odd as we’ve tried a lot of players recently!
Regarding gender and children, I struggle to see what information a toddler can meaningfully convey about their gender identity. What does a boy or girl even mean to someone that age? Type of clothing or length of hair? Neither are gender-specific traits but just societal norms. There's no good reason a little boy can't have long hair or wear dresses, and choosing to do so isn't a meaningful indication of gender dysphoria.
My two year old currently identifies as a train. Just let kids be kids.
Anyone who objects to your two year old identifying as a train is clearly trainsphobic.
Or they might just be trying to platform their views.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
Wow. 410 not out for Sam Northeast. Leics. made 584 first innings and now need 211 to avoid an innings defeat.
Highest score by an English cricket player for 127 years. Ninth highest score of all time. Second highest first-class score by a player not to play Test cricket (though I suppose that could still change).
Incredible.
He’s played one day international I think, but not been near the test side, which is a bit odd as we’ve tried a lot of players recently!
Nope, never played for England in any format. Don't think he's even played for the Lions.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
Could be worse, you could have told them all to move to Newent.
(There is, or was for a long time, an organisation called Newent Scottish Choir. Long story.)
Newsom signs California gun bill modeled after Texas abortion law https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/22/politics/california-newsom-gun-bill-texas-abortion-law/index.html California Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday signed a bill into law that allows private citizens to bring civil action against anyone who manufactures, distributes, transports or imports assault weapons or ghost guns, which are banned in the state.
California Senate Bill 1327 is modeled after a Texas law that allows private citizens to bring civil litigation against abortion providers or anyone who assists a pregnant person in obtaining an abortion after as early as six weeks of pregnancy. The US Supreme Court in December allowed Texas' six-week abortion ban to remain in effect, which prompted Newsom, who has been supportive of abortion rights and pro-gun control, to say he was "outraged" by the court's decision and direct his staff to draft a similar bill to regulate guns...
Might provoke the Supreme Court into ruling on the tactic, which they’ve so far avoided doing.
Comments
I am stating the BBC is factually wrong here. The crucial point is the BBC article isn't true. and thus makes it sound like the guy has been fired incorrectly. It is not self-aware. The guy is a very weird dude who appears to have got into a bit of a love affair with the chat bot to the extent he believes it really is aware and has feelings, to the extent he has gone and broken company policy and thus been fired.
You ask it if it is alive, it says yes and gives you a load of blurb about why it is. Another person logs on and asks if it not alive and it says yes and gives you a load of blurb about whit it isn't alive. It isn't consistent about its views even at the same time.
From the piece:
• 4yo is comfortable referred to as a girl, expresses discomfort when called anything else
• Author themselves refers to 4yo as a girl
• Been a while since 4yo has mentioned gender stuff
--> Conclusion: 4yo is being taught to "fear her mind, her very self"
===
It’s a neurotic, confused mother projecting her fears onto a normally shame-shifting toddler. And possibly doing grave damage
When your children thought they were a fire engine did their nursery teacher say "no you're not" or play along? Why should that be any different to a girl saying they're a boy?
"Step into their world" is good advice for young children and elderly people with dementia. If its a phase they'll grow out of it. No need to torment them along the way.
The quote is about a girl saying they're a boy and being told they're wrong, they're a girl. No need to do that. If a girl said they're a unicorn would you say "no you're not, you're a human"?
Step into their world, support them with love. If it's a stage they'll grow out of it, but love and support them along the way.
(Who's Peter Pan and Tinkerbell?)
Medical intervention is another issue entirely.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/07/23/germany-could-u-turn-plan-scrap-nuclear-power-energy-costs-soar/
Being given medical intervention at that age I'd oppose, but I'd also oppose telling people at that age they're wrong.
Kids will be kids, let them grow up. If a girl wants to say she's a boy, or vice versa, let them. Tomorrow they might be a fire truck or a unicorn. If they're still saying they're a boy or a girl for years, then it might be time to get medical advice, but let them be theirselves until then.
For the moment I feel unqualified to opine on this one
If they use their right to leave, they’ll have regained sovereignerty too.
Think about your grounds for thinking that I am self-aware (if you do). Even if you met me in the flesh and confirmed that I seem to be a meat construct of the same species as you, so what?
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
1 This individual presents as self aware and furthermore actually is. This is different from presenting as self aware, and as every self aware person knows, 'real self awareness' is not 'gobbledegook'.
2 Imagine a different culture without the same scientific assumptions; my paper copy of the works of Shakespeare gives every appearance of being self aware in that it can effortlessly transmit a complex of information to others under certain conditions, just like people can. This primitive seeming is to us obviously not self aware, despite the illusion. Advanced AI is just refined versions of this. The issue of whether it is actually self aware remains a question.
3 It was obvious to David Hume that animals are self aware, while many of his contemporaries did not think so. Thinking so is more or less universal in our culture now.
4 Perhaps we need to stay open minded and see how it all gets on. Meanwhile the precautionary principle is a good idea. Not something we are good at.
When we first left the EU, I suggested not negotiating an FTA with Europe, or with any other territory at all, for 5 years, as a 'cooling off' period whilst we got used to trading as a third country. This would have reduced expectations greatly, 'taken back control' of our borders, probably reduced exports to (but also imports from) the EU, and made both parties more willing to negotiate a good FTA that eliminated the necessary obstacles. It would have involved a hard border in Northern Ireland, but I wouldn't have added physical infrastructure.
I cannot help wondering, though, if there is some as yet undisclosed history somewhere in the background.
The Conservative Party was at the time a complete mess, totally divided. Cameron had done what he could to modernise their image, though whether this was real change or just marketing is another question. The fact is that Cameron had enormous difficulties with his hard-liners, who often rebelled against government policy.
The Lib Dems brought forward policies which the Conservatives fought against tooth and nail, but they were pushed through by the Lib Dems and proved not only successful but popular. Meanwhile, the Conservative policies that were pushed through were unpopular.
When the time came for a general election, the consensus now is that both Cameron and Clegg would have been happy with a continuation of the coalition. Then comes the bit for which I have no evidence whatsoever - but it would explain what happened. The two party leaders agreed that they would allow the Conservatives to take the credit for the good and popular policies, while the Lib Dems would do their best to defend the unpopular bits. This is what happened, in any case, so perhaps I am not entirely wrong in thinking that this was the plan.
What happened in practice was that unprincipled Tory strategists, who wanted to undermine both Cameron and the Coalition saw their chance to weigh in on Lib Dem-held seats. The rest is history. We have been suffering ever since then from the most reactionary, dictatorial government in our history.
This is now only just unravelling. And the turmoil in the Conservative ranks is reflected in their current internal election. The Conservatives do not really know what they are for.
We might all be in a simulation. We might not have free will. No one truly understands consciousness on even a basic level. As for animals being self aware, are they? A dog? A wasp? An oyster? A fungus? A bacterium? A virus? This really is not settled science which is ‘universally accepted’
We might be hitting peak Centerist-Pundit from the PB commeteriat today.
Centrist. Commentariat.
If physicalism isn't true then it is not plausible, or much less so, that we can artificially create awareness either deliberately or accidentally.
FWIW I believe physicalism isn't true (on entirely other grounds), but will be more persuaded I am wrong if it is reasonably clear that awareness is a construct of the 'physics' universe.
What was his rousing message today - I will declare a national crisis? If EdM had tried that, the crowing would be loud.
In the Scottish case it’s fair to say that Brexit changed things, but then there would always be something. Clearly no Parliament binds it’s successors but perhaps an independence vote should be tied to a no new referendum for 20 years pledge?
Ukraine war: Explosions rock Ukrainian port hours after grain deal
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62276392
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
There is a lot of natural similarity between what could be called the Orange Book Lib Dems and the "dry, socially liberal" Tories.
Clegg and Cameron could work well together because they were similar.
The Tories didn't fight tooth and nail against all LD policies. In many areas there was similar alignment. The Tories opposed Labours Job Tax rise even before the election. The Lib Dems wanted taxes on jobs cutting before the election. The Tories welcome cutting taxes where viable and think work should pay. Alignment here post election was able to be negotiated and not just done because of divisions, there was serious overlap.
The notion that at election time that Clegg chose to let Cameron take credit, or Tory strategists did anything wrong, is unjustified complaining.
Cameron sought credit and he was unabashedly saying he had a record he was proud of and should continue.
Clegg didn't seek credit as he was worried he'd lost his left wing so tried to distance the party from his own record. In doing so, he also lost his right wing as his voters on the right thought that if they wanted the policies to continue they needed to vote Tory.
If Clegg and co hadn't acted so ashamed of their record they might have saved half of their seats, rather than facing a wipeout.
Last month, Blake Lemoine went public with his theory that Google's language technology is sentient and should therefore have its "wants" respected. Google, plus several AI experts, denied the claims and on Friday the company confirmed he had been sacked. Mr Lemoine told the BBC he is getting legal advice, and declined to comment further."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62275326
Also, was he sacked for saying this thing was sentient when google thinks it isn't, or when google thinks it is? Or for being a dork?
Brexit is done, and for sure it’s not perfect (far from) but it’s not responsible for everything.
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
My two year old currently identifies as a train. Just let kids be kids.
Not sure about no conflict when it comes to gay rights. You and I might not see any but plenty others did and some still do. Eg vs religious freedom.
As an aside, on the veracity of his claims: this particular individual strikes me as the kind of person who probably believe the stripper really likes him. That he believed that a pile of linear algebra trained to riff on your prompt is sentient because it said so when he asked it is not entirely surprising.
Perhaps I’m revealing my own prejudices here though!
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
Leics. made 584 first innings and now need 211 to avoid an innings defeat.
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
If they do heroin, would that be in High Fields?
(Now that's a pun only he and I will understand!)
There of course must be some extra delays. Ignoring the crap the lorry drivers have to go through the extra recording and stamping of each passport must add on a minute or two to each car which adds up when there are thousands. I went cycling in France at the height of the pandemic and it was seamless but then I was on a ferry with hardly any cars and as a cyclist you overtake the cars queueing and get to the passport control first and it is just you so the process was very quick. If you are the hundredth car each with 4 people and a dog I suspect passport control is more torturous.
Total sobriety seems to have made me MORE manic, you'll be glad to hear. Hence the Newenting
I may smoke a cheeky blunt tonight, to take the edge off
Incredible.
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
(There is, or was for a long time, an organisation called Newent Scottish Choir. Long story.)
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/22/politics/california-newsom-gun-bill-texas-abortion-law/index.html
California Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday signed a bill into law that allows private citizens to bring civil action against anyone who manufactures, distributes, transports or imports assault weapons or ghost guns, which are banned in the state.
California Senate Bill 1327 is modeled after a Texas law that allows private citizens to bring civil litigation against abortion providers or anyone who assists a pregnant person in obtaining an abortion after as early as six weeks of pregnancy. The US Supreme Court in December allowed Texas' six-week abortion ban to remain in effect, which prompted Newsom, who has been supportive of abortion rights and pro-gun control, to say he was "outraged" by the court's decision and direct his staff to draft a similar bill to regulate guns...
Might provoke the Supreme Court into ruling on the tactic, which they’ve so far avoided doing.