@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
How about the ones who feel it's 12 years of Tory incompetence and chaos? Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
Other than Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn, who is proposing any change from the Treasury consensus?
That's a re-hash of the "we would have got away with it but for those meddling faceless bureaucrats." The Treasury does what the Chancellor tells them to. If they're astonished to discover it was all wrong, then that it took them 12 years is proof of incompetence.
But it hasn't been 12 years. It's less than 12 months since Sunak announced some of the tax rises that Truss is pledging to reverse.
She isn't planning some massive slash and burn of the state, but rather revering to the tax rates of all of 12 months ago. Oh, the horrors!
We weren't discussing taxation. It was persistent low growth.
Our growth hasn't been persistently that low though. Unfortunately most of our growth went to eliminating Brown's budget deficit he left.
One flaw in how GDP is measured is that it isn't deflated by the budget deficit, it should be. If it was, then our growth would have been much faster in the past decade, and much lower in the decade before that.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
Equally, the Remainers are so emotionally traumatised in having come second in a democratic vote that they have spent six years running through in their minds that they couldn't possibly have lost to a bunch of pig-shit thick gammons.
They do not have the intellectual bandwidth to accept they lost and the world has moved on. So they stay rooted to 2016.
I think every "remainer" (what's that?) on here is perfectly reconciled to having lost to a bunch of pig-shit thick gammons.
You do yourself down slightly but if that's how you would describe yourself then fine.
Losing elections to those who are pig-shit thick happens all the time. We came close to it in 2017 and 2019.
I reckon 4 April 2023 will be a momentous day. Someone will finally read some pb posts from the other side about Brexit and be the first to actually change their mind, and admit they were wrong. We might get a second turncoat by the end of 2024.
Lol. I wonder if we will ever see the last PB comment on Brexit? Or will the Singularity come first?
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
Equally, the Remainers are so emotionally traumatised in having come second in a democratic vote that they have spent six years running through in their minds that they couldn't possibly have lost to a bunch of pig-shit thick gammons.
They do not have the intellectual bandwidth to accept they lost and the world has moved on. So they stay rooted to 2016.
That's a laugh, considering most of the brexiteers are hankering back to the days of spitfires, imperial measurements and "Rivers of blood" speeches. Welcome back to the sick man of Europe, or is it the poor man of Europe? We will be all powerful and sovereign in our own nutshells!!!
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
Equally, the Remainers are so emotionally traumatised in having come second in a democratic vote that they have spent six years running through in their minds that they couldn't possibly have lost to a bunch of pig-shit thick gammons.
They do not have the intellectual bandwidth to accept they lost and the world has moved on. So they stay rooted to 2016.
Utter nonsense . The world has moved on but Leavers in government especially seem desperate to keep droning on about Brexit.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
Equally, the Remainers are so emotionally traumatised in having come second in a democratic vote that they have spent six years running through in their minds that they couldn't possibly have lost to a bunch of pig-shit thick gammons.
They do not have the intellectual bandwidth to accept they lost and the world has moved on. So they stay rooted to 2016.
Johnson is a vote winning genius
Johnson is a thoroughly corrupt liar
Uncontroversial statements, but we are asked to believe that his sensational and narrow victory in 2016 represented the Noble, Untrammelled Will of the British People, Gawd bless 'em, and not an illustration of the efficacy of corruption and dishonesty in acquiring the votes of, your words, pigshit thick gammons.
Kansas City Star - Fist pumper to fleeing coward: Jan. 6 video shows Missouri who Josh Hawley really is
Josh Hawley is a laughingstock. During Thursday night’s televised hearings of the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, coup attempt at the U.S. Capitol, Rep. Elaine Luria showed video of Missouri’s junior senator that will surely follow him the rest of his life. In the clip, Hawley sprints across a hallway as he and his fellow senators are evacuated after insurrectionists had breached the Capitol building. When it played on the screen, the audience in the room with the committee erupted in laughter.
Of course, Twitter immediately dogpiled. Hawley’s name was the No. 1 trending topic in politics that evening as users shared the hashtag #HawlinAss along with GIFs of a galloping Forrest Gump. “From now on, if political reporters ask Josh Hawley if he’s planning to run, he’s going to have to ask them to clarify,” quipped one.
Hawley has become one of the defining figures of that day. A famous photo captured by Francis Chung shows him raising a fist in solidarity with the crowds that would soon break through doors, loot offices and assault law enforcement. Luria quoted a Capitol Police officer who was there and told the committee that Hawley’s gesture “riled up the crowd, and it bothered her greatly because he was doing it in a safe space protected by the officers and the barriers.” And later, when the Senate reconvened after the halls of the Capitol had been cleared and secured, Hawley took to the floor as the very first voice calling to throw out millions of Americans’ votes cast fairly and legally for the rightful winner in a presidential election. And never forget: He was joined in his campaign to discard ballots by Kansas Sen. Roger Marshall.
A signature Hawley issue is masculinity — as in, how little of it American men seem to have these days. It’s a frequent topic in his speeches and on his podcast, where “the left-wing attack on manhood” is a dire threat to our society. Regnery Publishing is set to release his book “Manhood: The Masculine Virtues America Needs” next year. Twitter didn’t see much virile bravado as he ran from the mob. . . .
SSI - Senator gives whole new perspective to very old concept of "Hawleying ass".
One of the first Thieling Senators: "Thiel’s giving drew scrutiny in 2017, when he donated to then-Missouri Attorney General Josh Hawley’s Senate campaign. The contribution landed just days before Hawley launched an antitrust investigation into Google, a company Thiel has criticized as monopolistic." [Politico.]
Recall Thiel's creed of freedomite political faith practically begins "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible" and pins the origin of the rot on "the extension of the franchise to women" [Cato Institute].
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
You mean that's not what they're doing?
Of course for Leavers that took four decades to bear fruit, and even then only narrowly and only after the Remain side seized every opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.
So good luck with the next three and a half decades of being miserable and angry if that is the plan.
Sure. Leavers were a small minority for decades.
Meantime, last week, Polling by YouGov for The Times found that the majority of people – 53% – said the UK had been wrong to leave the EU. Curtice said this was a “record high”.
The same poll also found that only around a third (35%) of people thought the UK had been right to leave the EU. A total of 12% of respondents said they did not know.…
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
ABBA Voyage is bloody fantastic (and if you could hook the punters in that arena up to the grid you could solve the energy crisis.)
I might even write a letter to Truss in green ink suggesting that. It's no more crackpot than her not tax and spend it anyway wheeze, after all.
Were you in the dancefloor bit or seated?
Er, asking for a friend....
Seated. I could've stood down in the big floorspace at the front for 90 minutes but husband's gammy leg would've demanded a sit down.
Thx so the whole place was rocking it sounds wherever you were. 'chappreciated.
Completely packed out, very loud, lots of (mostly middle aged) people, including a few ladies in full costume, getting very excited. Most of the major standards appear, a few missing but I reckon they're keeping material back so they can produce a new version of the show in a year or two from now. Won't give too much more away, suffice it to say that when virtual ABBA appear "on stage" it's very easy to suspend disbelief and feel that they're actually there. It's very well done.
How has Sunak's team allowed this leadership race to be framed around tax cuts or not?
Seems to have been a fatal error to allow Truss to frame the race as they say.
He seems to be a very passive individual all around. With his generally decent presentation but lack of presence he seems like a decent spokesman, rather than a leader.
If he cannot overcome a candidate with Truss's flaws, it tells its own story - it's not as though the members are uncapable of liking hin, they use to do so after all.
But a year ago he was generally deemed to have big presence and a charismatic empathetic persona.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
Equally, the Remainers are so emotionally traumatised in having come second in a democratic vote that they have spent six years running through in their minds that they couldn't possibly have lost to a bunch of pig-shit thick gammons.
They do not have the intellectual bandwidth to accept they lost and the world has moved on. So they stay rooted to 2016.
Utter nonsense . The world has moved on but Leavers in government especially seem desperate to keep droning on about Brexit.
It's certainly true plenty of remainers in the world at large are still emotionally fragile and bitter about the events of 2016, but the words of commentators, fringe groups and marginal parties is not massively relevant. The worst that seems thrown at the Opposition now is that they are lying about their intentions, since their words are correctly not obsessed about leaving and reversing things. That allegation of lying is not provable until they are actually in government, but seems implausible, since if they are elected on a 'we won't reverse it' platform, they are unlikely to succeed in the attempt.
As such, the bulk of the obsession does seem driven by the government. A lot of people do criticise Brexit and the aftermath, but the government is the one which, rather than simply point to success, falls back on a narrative of internal traitors, which the existence of a bitter commentariat and fringe groups does not justify.
It is, instead, clearly a tactic to proclaim Brexit under threat as a defence mechanism, and that had diminishing returns.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
Equally, the Remainers are so emotionally traumatised in having come second in a democratic vote that they have spent six years running through in their minds that they couldn't possibly have lost to a bunch of pig-shit thick gammons.
They do not have the intellectual bandwidth to accept they lost and the world has moved on. So they stay rooted to 2016.
That's a laugh, considering most of the brexiteers are hankering back to the days of spitfires, imperial measurements and "Rivers of blood" speeches. Welcome back to the sick man of Europe, or is it the poor man of Europe? We will be all powerful and sovereign in our own nutshells!!!
I don't think I've ever seen a single Brexiteer here bang on about spitfires etc, plenty of Remainders here bring them up though.
Only Brexiteer fan of Enoch I can think of was isam.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
Equally, the Remainers are so emotionally traumatised in having come second in a democratic vote that they have spent six years running through in their minds that they couldn't possibly have lost to a bunch of pig-shit thick gammons.
They do not have the intellectual bandwidth to accept they lost and the world has moved on. So they stay rooted to 2016.
My side hasn't won a major public vote since 2005, and we lost every vote until I was 21 years old too. If there is one thing I know how to accept without trauma it is losing an election. But the nice thing about democracy is that losing an election is not the end of the debate.
How has Sunak's team allowed this leadership race to be framed around tax cuts or not?
Seems to have been a fatal error to allow Truss to frame the race as they say.
He seems to be a very passive individual all around. With his generally decent presentation but lack of presence he seems like a decent spokesman, rather than a leader.
If he cannot overcome a candidate with Truss's flaws, it tells its own story - it's not as though the members are uncapable of liking hin, they use to do so after all.
But a year ago he was generally deemed to have big presence and a charismatic empathetic persona.
Empathetic maybe, but I never really got where the big presence idea came from. He seems like a nice enough guy, for a politician, but beyond that? It seems to have been presumed he did because his ratings were good.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
Leavers won't take yes for an answer.
They didn't like the rules of the club any more and that's fine. Or would be, if they knew what rules they weren't supposed to like. But the vast majority don't. So they blather on about sovereignty.
I think @MarqueeMark's description of those people as pig-shit thick gammons is harsh but he seems to know.
ABBA Voyage is bloody fantastic (and if you could hook the punters in that arena up to the grid you could solve the energy crisis.)
I might even write a letter to Truss in green ink suggesting that. It's no more crackpot than her not tax and spend it anyway wheeze, after all.
Were you in the dancefloor bit or seated?
Er, asking for a friend....
Seated. I could've stood down in the big floorspace at the front for 90 minutes but husband's gammy leg would've demanded a sit down.
Thx so the whole place was rocking it sounds wherever you were. 'chappreciated.
Completely packed out, very loud, lots of (mostly middle aged) people, including a few ladies in full costume, getting very excited. Most of the major standards appear, a few missing but I reckon they're keeping material back so they can produce a new version of the show in a year or two from now. Won't give too much more away, suffice it to say that when virtual ABBA appear "on stage" it's very easy to suspend disbelief and feel that they're actually there. It's very well done.
Having seen it last Friday night got to agree with pigeon's review. Not cheap but worth the money...
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
Not to politicians.
Frustrate the opponent into giving up and you win, by their logic.
But be suspicious of it as a tactic. Same with a lawyer who bangs on emotionally or about moral issues, rather than the law or the facts.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
You mean that's not what they're doing?
Of course for Leavers that took four decades to bear fruit, and even then only narrowly and only after the Remain side seized every opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.
So good luck with the next three and a half decades of being miserable and angry if that is the plan.
Sure. Leavers were a small minority for decades.
Meantime, last week, Polling by YouGov for The Times found that the majority of people – 53% – said the UK had been wrong to leave the EU. Curtice said this was a “record high”.
The same poll also found that only around a third (35%) of people thought the UK had been right to leave the EU. A total of 12% of respondents said they did not know.…
You need to work on your put downs.
What's that got to do with the price of fish?
We voted to leave and had a GE backing get Brexit done, so the question of right or wrong is closed. We've left.
Now if you have a poll showing a majority wanting us to join afresh, that might be slightly interesting.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
How about the ones who feel it's 12 years of Tory incompetence and chaos? Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
Other than Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn, who is proposing any change from the Treasury consensus?
That's a re-hash of the "we would have got away with it but for those meddling faceless bureaucrats." The Treasury does what the Chancellor tells them to. If they're astonished to discover it was all wrong, then that it took them 12 years is proof of incompetence.
But it hasn't been 12 years. It's less than 12 months since Sunak announced some of the tax rises that Truss is pledging to reverse.
She isn't planning some massive slash and burn of the state, but rather revering to the tax rates of all of 12 months ago. Oh, the horrors!
The horror is that she is cutting the taxes but not the expenditure the taxes are being introduced to pay for....
Go on Truss cancel the Social Care improvements and watch the reaction of your target audience.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
You mean that's not what they're doing?
Of course for Leavers that took four decades to bear fruit, and even then only narrowly and only after the Remain side seized every opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.
So good luck with the next three and a half decades of being miserable and angry if that is the plan.
Sure. Leavers were a small minority for decades.
Meantime, last week, Polling by YouGov for The Times found that the majority of people – 53% – said the UK had been wrong to leave the EU. Curtice said this was a “record high”.
The same poll also found that only around a third (35%) of people thought the UK had been right to leave the EU. A total of 12% of respondents said they did not know.…
You need to work on your put downs.
What's that got to do with the price of fish?
We voted to leave and had a GE backing get Brexit done, so the question of right or wrong is closed. We've left.
Now if you have a poll showing a majority wanting us to join afresh, that might be slightly interesting.
Yes I think that's right but at the moment I don't think anyone has the stamina.
Perhaps the LDs might or should stick something in their manifesto about closer ties and see how people respond.
During the Parliamentary debates on leaving, compromise and general niceness was the ally of pro-EU types. Division was the advantage of those who wanted a starker departure.
Men convinced of their own cleverness like Dominic Grieve shot themselves in the foot when they got precisely what they damned* but threw their toys out of the pram and voted against the proposal anyway.
The major clue (and I said it at the time, as did many others) was when they marched through the lobbies with arch-sceptics. Somebody was buggering up their voting, and for all the derision aimed at Leavers at least they actually voted for what they wanted.
The pro-EU side ended up nobbling every compromise and then the deal of May, presumably on the insane basis any replacement for May would end up somehow being more pro-EU than her.
Inclusivity, compromise, these are the allies of the pro-EU sentiment. Together we're stronger than apart, brotherhood of man type stuff. Focusing on the advantages of the EU (as they should have during the incredibly inept campaign).
Edited extra bit: *an impressive typo. I meant 'demanded'.
That would have involved actually voting for BREXIT though.
BREXIT achieved this - it found a large number of politicians who would, in the normal course of things, vote for anything their party proposed. Labour politicians would would vote for the Rwandan plan, just so long as it was official Labour policy etc.
Suddenly, these people found a hill to die on. The problem was that they thought that they needed to actually die on that hill. Rather than using that conviction to fight *for* something.
So they wouldn’t vote for BREXIT. They wouldn’t vote against it. They just hoped something would turn up.
It did.
“Good day to be alive, he said…. Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel Is just a freight train coming your way”
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
How about the ones who feel it's 12 years of Tory incompetence and chaos? Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
Other than Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn, who is proposing any change from the Treasury consensus?
That's a re-hash of the "we would have got away with it but for those meddling faceless bureaucrats." The Treasury does what the Chancellor tells them to. If they're astonished to discover it was all wrong, then that it took them 12 years is proof of incompetence.
But it hasn't been 12 years. It's less than 12 months since Sunak announced some of the tax rises that Truss is pledging to reverse.
She isn't planning some massive slash and burn of the state, but rather revering to the tax rates of all of 12 months ago. Oh, the horrors!
The horror is that she is cutting the taxes but not the expenditure the taxes are being introduced to pay for....
No doubt some unexplained 'efficiencies' will manage it plenty. Or some unexplained 'deregulation' will pay for everything.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
What you've got to understand about @IshmaelZ is that he secretly knows he's rather bigoted and hates himself for it. This is why he accuses others of bigotry and tried to provoke them with nonsense about BLM and Colston.
He wants a reaction so he can have the legitimacy to attack what he knows lies in himself, but despises that he can't tackle.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
You mean that's not what they're doing?
Of course for Leavers that took four decades to bear fruit, and even then only narrowly and only after the Remain side seized every opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.
So good luck with the next three and a half decades of being miserable and angry if that is the plan.
Sure. Leavers were a small minority for decades.
Meantime, last week, Polling by YouGov for The Times found that the majority of people – 53% – said the UK had been wrong to leave the EU. Curtice said this was a “record high”.
The same poll also found that only around a third (35%) of people thought the UK had been right to leave the EU. A total of 12% of respondents said they did not know.…
You need to work on your put downs.
What's that got to do with the price of fish?
We voted to leave and had a GE backing get Brexit done, so the question of right or wrong is closed. We've left.
Now if you have a poll showing a majority wanting us to join afresh, that might be slightly interesting.
It has to do with your comment. So you’re now, as usual, changing the topic.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
Leavers won't take yes for an answer.
They didn't like the rules of the club any more and that's fine. Or would be, if they knew what rules they weren't supposed to like. But the vast majority don't. So they blather on about sovereignty.
I think @MarqueeMark's description of those people as pig-shit thick gammons is harsh but he seems to know.
Because to most people sovereignty means being supreme at making your own choices, not abiding by other people's choices and having to stick with that without a say.
If a wife in a controlling relationship is constantly told what to do by a domineering husband, and she is desperately unhappy and wants to live her own way, but she has a right to get away from him and divorce him ... would you tell her that sticking with him as he dominates and tells her what to do means she's in control as she has the choice to leave him, therefore she shouldn't get divorced because she's in control by letting him dominate her?
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
You mean that's not what they're doing?
Of course for Leavers that took four decades to bear fruit, and even then only narrowly and only after the Remain side seized every opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.
So good luck with the next three and a half decades of being miserable and angry if that is the plan.
Sure. Leavers were a small minority for decades.
Meantime, last week, Polling by YouGov for The Times found that the majority of people – 53% – said the UK had been wrong to leave the EU. Curtice said this was a “record high”.
The same poll also found that only around a third (35%) of people thought the UK had been right to leave the EU. A total of 12% of respondents said they did not know.…
You need to work on your put downs.
What's that got to do with the price of fish?
We voted to leave and had a GE backing get Brexit done, so the question of right or wrong is closed. We've left.
Now if you have a poll showing a majority wanting us to join afresh, that might be slightly interesting.
Even then, this should be the same as a mid-term poll. If we voted in a GE for a party that got a maj and then opinion polls showed a huge lead for the opposition 2-3 years after, the government isn't obliged to call a GE. We shouldn't be obliged to call a referendum or change course here.
If a party proposes closer relations with the EU up to and including applying for membership at a future GE, then the public will get the chance to vote for it eventually.
Bloody got COVID for the 3rd time, was feeling pretty crummy all of yesterday and this morning my wife suggested that it's probably COVID. Took the test and it is.
I think it's already on the way out because I don't feel as feverish as yesterday but I still get out of breath walking upstairs. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be gone. This is worse than the version I got in December but not as bad as the March 2020 vintage.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
You mean that's not what they're doing?
Of course for Leavers that took four decades to bear fruit, and even then only narrowly and only after the Remain side seized every opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.
So good luck with the next three and a half decades of being miserable and angry if that is the plan.
Sure. Leavers were a small minority for decades.
Meantime, last week, Polling by YouGov for The Times found that the majority of people – 53% – said the UK had been wrong to leave the EU. Curtice said this was a “record high”.
The same poll also found that only around a third (35%) of people thought the UK had been right to leave the EU. A total of 12% of respondents said they did not know.…
You need to work on your put downs.
What's that got to do with the price of fish?
We voted to leave and had a GE backing get Brexit done, so the question of right or wrong is closed. We've left.
Now if you have a poll showing a majority wanting us to join afresh, that might be slightly interesting.
It has to do with your comment. So you’re now, as usual, changing the topic.
Not at all. OLB said that Remainers should do what Leavers did, and my comment was that it took Leavers four decades to go from us voting to Remain to voting to Leave.
There's no sign that the people who haven't accepted we voted to Leave will get a majority for voting to Join the EU in less than four decades, if ever.
Mid term polls showing a past decision might have been slightly wrong is neither her not there.
How has Sunak's team allowed this leadership race to be framed around tax cuts or not?
Seems to have been a fatal error to allow Truss to frame the race as they say.
He seems to be a very passive individual all around. With his generally decent presentation but lack of presence he seems like a decent spokesman, rather than a leader.
If he cannot overcome a candidate with Truss's flaws, it tells its own story - it's not as though the members are uncapable of liking hin, they use to do so after all.
But a year ago he was generally deemed to have big presence and a charismatic empathetic persona.
Empathetic maybe, but I never really got where the big presence idea came from. He seems like a nice enough guy, for a politician, but beyond that? It seems to have been presumed he did because his ratings were good.
Ok not you then - but he was rated as good gravy by many (inc on here) and was a very short odds betting fav for next leader.
I reckon 4 April 2023 will be a momentous day. Someone will finally read some pb posts from the other side about Brexit and be the first to actually change their mind, and admit they were wrong. We might get a second turncoat by the end of 2024.
Lol. I wonder if we will ever see the last PB comment on Brexit? Or will the Singularity come first?
We'll never see the last PB comment on Brexit, but I'd expect that if you plotted a graph of the proportion of comments that were about Brexit it would have declined considerably from its peak, and will continue to decline towards zero, though never quite reaching it.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
Leavers won't take yes for an answer.
They didn't like the rules of the club any more and that's fine. Or would be, if they knew what rules they weren't supposed to like. But the vast majority don't. So they blather on about sovereignty.
I think @MarqueeMark's description of those people as pig-shit thick gammons is harsh but he seems to know.
Because to most people sovereignty means being supreme at making your own choices, not abiding by other people's choices and having to stick with that without a say.
If a wife in a controlling relationship is constantly told what to do by a domineering husband, and she is desperately unhappy and wants to live her own way, but she has a right to get away from him and divorce him ... would you tell her that sticking with him as he dominates and tells her what to do means she's in control as she has the choice to leave him, therefore she shouldn't get divorced because she's in control by letting him dominate her?
As I said, most people had no clue what rules the UK was signed up to or why we didn't like them any more.
Perhaps if you tell them the terms of the recent Australia trade deal they will likewise be spitting feathers. Or they might apply to North Korea for citizenship. Maybe you should do that latter if you believe that to be truly sovereign you must not come to any agreement with an agreed set of rules.
ABBA Voyage is bloody fantastic (and if you could hook the punters in that arena up to the grid you could solve the energy crisis.)
I might even write a letter to Truss in green ink suggesting that. It's no more crackpot than her not tax and spend it anyway wheeze, after all.
Were you in the dancefloor bit or seated?
Er, asking for a friend....
Seated. I could've stood down in the big floorspace at the front for 90 minutes but husband's gammy leg would've demanded a sit down.
Thx so the whole place was rocking it sounds wherever you were. 'chappreciated.
Completely packed out, very loud, lots of (mostly middle aged) people, including a few ladies in full costume, getting very excited. Most of the major standards appear, a few missing but I reckon they're keeping material back so they can produce a new version of the show in a year or two from now. Won't give too much more away, suffice it to say that when virtual ABBA appear "on stage" it's very easy to suspend disbelief and feel that they're actually there. It's very well done.
Having seen it last Friday night got to agree with pigeon's review. Not cheap but worth the money...
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
You mean that's not what they're doing?
Of course for Leavers that took four decades to bear fruit, and even then only narrowly and only after the Remain side seized every opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.
So good luck with the next three and a half decades of being miserable and angry if that is the plan.
Sure. Leavers were a small minority for decades.
Meantime, last week, Polling by YouGov for The Times found that the majority of people – 53% – said the UK had been wrong to leave the EU. Curtice said this was a “record high”.
The same poll also found that only around a third (35%) of people thought the UK had been right to leave the EU. A total of 12% of respondents said they did not know.…
You need to work on your put downs.
What's that got to do with the price of fish?
We voted to leave and had a GE backing get Brexit done, so the question of right or wrong is closed. We've left.
Now if you have a poll showing a majority wanting us to join afresh, that might be slightly interesting.
Even then, this should be the same as a mid-term poll. If we voted in a GE for a party that got a maj and then opinion polls showed a huge lead for the opposition 2-3 years after, the government isn't obliged to call a GE. We shouldn't be obliged to call a referendum or change course here.
If a party proposes closer relations with the EU up to and including applying for membership at a future GE, then the public will get the chance to vote for it eventually.
Yes that is right.
Isn't being a democratic sovereign nation wonderful.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
I'm not a fan of either but weed smells infinitely better and more floral than the pungent smell of tobacco.
Hard disagree from me on this one. Tobacco certainly smells unpleasant, but it's a lot less aggressive a smell compared to weed, and you can smell weed at least ten times further away.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
What you've got to understand about @IshmaelZ is that he secretly knows he's rather bigoted and hates himself for it. This is why he accuses others of bigotry and tried to provoke them with nonsense about BLM and Colston.
He wants a reaction so he can have the legitimacy to attack what he knows lies in himself, but despises that he can't tackle.
Hence the anger and the drink.
Impossible to take seriously a wannabe royalist who flies the Royal Standard over the labrador hutches because he doesn't know what the flag implies.
For adult readers, it wasn't Colston himself (a maligned character who dedicated the vast majority of his slaving wealth to good works) so much as the identity of his boss, James II (the King bloke) which is a clue to the importance of thye enterprise to the country as a whole. That. plus I go trail hunting quite a lot in the Bristol hinterland, and when I nosily google the big houses which give lawn meets on Saturdays, they are all built on slave money. Not a surprisingly large percentage of them, all of them.
It is frightening how useful, useful idiots are. British slave trade of Africans to British colonies, Indian women forced into prostitution under the Cantonment acts, South African concentration camps. Sheer murderous balls-out racism, all wiped out by pure historical ignorance and a sprinkling of magic The Raj dust from a flag flapping labrador fancier.
Bloody got COVID for the 3rd time, was feeling pretty crummy all of yesterday and this morning my wife suggested that it's probably COVID. Took the test and it is.
I think it's already on the way out because I don't feel as feverish as yesterday but I still get out of breath walking upstairs. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be gone. This is worse than the version I got in December but not as bad as the March 2020 vintage.
it's strange, because my wife and I are still to get it. We only go to Tesco once a week and walk the dogs. We are both retired as well. Can I ask how active you are in meeting people?
Neither my wife or I have knowingly had Covid yet. I work at Uni and thus mix with thousands. My wife also in contact with people through work. Fun times.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
What you've got to understand about @IshmaelZ is that he secretly knows he's rather bigoted and hates himself for it. This is why he accuses others of bigotry and tried to provoke them with nonsense about BLM and Colston.
He wants a reaction so he can have the legitimacy to attack what he knows lies in himself, but despises that he can't tackle.
Hence the anger and the drink.
But has a clear eyed view of empire inc slavery. Which is not so easy to attain - much more comfortable as a Brit to go with "it's complicated" and "not uniquely evil".
Because Brexit and the EU are questions of identity there will always be a sizeable minority (or sometimes majority) of people deeply unhappy with the status quo. That is doubly true since the referendum drew up the battle lines. It’s also true of Scotland and independence.
Instead of each side dismissing the other’s point of view as irrelevant why can’t we be more creative? Why also can’t the EU be more creative?
We could do with a Good Friday agreement for the UK and EU where those in this country who identify as Brexiteers - businesses and individuals - can carry on their lives and careers free of EU laws and regulations, while those identifying as remain are able to elect to have both the rights had the obligations that come with EU membership.
It worked in NI after the troubles, it works in NI for businesses and individuals with the NIP now. It could probably work for Britain as a whole if people put their minds to it.
I was always in favour of creating single market enclaves in parts of the UK - city of London, a couple of the port towns, a few cities like Brighton or Bristol, the whole of Scotland. Who knows if it would have worked, but the US federal system with its differential taxes, alcohol duties and laws, legal status of cannabis and many other things shows it’s not impossible.
This must mean what we’ve got now is worse than No-Deal Brexit, right?
Just as a point of information we've had clusterfucks at Dover for years whenever the French went on strike or didn't staff themselves up properly. Look up Operation Stack. And we were also outside Schengen then too, so all passports needed inspection.
Yes, they have to be stamped now too, which maybe takes an extra 3-4 seconds, but that's basically it.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
A foundation, not the sole foundation.
Interesting thing is how much tea and sugar became part of the urban worker's diet - cheap calories, no alcohol.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
A foundation, not the sole foundation.
Interesting thing is how much tea and sugar became part of the urban worker's diet - cheap calories, no alcohol.
Orwell’s Down & Out in Paris and London is very good on this. 2L of weak country red per hotel kitchen worker per day in Paris, then tea and bread and margerine as a tramp in London.
Absolutely to both - though brewing was also a disinfectant, and small beer a much safer drink than contaminated water.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
On the contrary. I am not saying the ‘same old stuff’
Earlier today in response to one of your typically asinine pointless soul-wearying, life-force-eroding non-comment ‘comments’, the PB equivalent of the ‘fecal vomiting’ known to occur as brain death approaches, and the convulsing body goes into reverse by disgorging turds through the mouth - an excrescence so uncannily like your entire commentary here these last 348 years - I called you a ‘bum faced old git’
I haven’t, in point of fact - and I hope the moderators take note - repeated the allegation that you are a ‘bum faced old git’, because I sensitively realised you ARE a ‘bum faced old git’, and I have no wish to cause offence
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
I'm not a fan of either but weed smells infinitely better and more floral than the pungent smell of tobacco.
Hard disagree from me on this one. Tobacco certainly smells unpleasant, but it's a lot less aggressive a smell compared to weed, and you can smell weed at least ten times further away.
The liking or hating the smell of either is strangely related to the observers view of which products are “evil” or “good”.
We are now at the stage where when, in an American cop show, they have an episode where Tobacco Inc is swapping tobacco IP for weed IP with a Mexican Cartel - it’s not even far fetched. Tobacco will be banned in the near future and weed completely legalised.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
How about the ones who feel it's 12 years of Tory incompetence and chaos? Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
Other than Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn, who is proposing any change from the Treasury consensus?
That's a re-hash of the "we would have got away with it but for those meddling faceless bureaucrats." The Treasury does what the Chancellor tells them to. If they're astonished to discover it was all wrong, then that it took them 12 years is proof of incompetence.
But it hasn't been 12 years. It's less than 12 months since Sunak announced some of the tax rises that Truss is pledging to reverse.
She isn't planning some massive slash and burn of the state, but rather revering to the tax rates of all of 12 months ago. Oh, the horrors!
The horror is that she is cutting the taxes but not the expenditure the taxes are being introduced to pay for....
No doubt some unexplained 'efficiencies' will manage it plenty. Or some unexplained 'deregulation' will pay for everything.
"The Treasury does what the Chancellor tells them to."
I don't think that's quite right. In theory, yes. But when you are being presented with data saying something you want to do is a bad idea, or being helpfully guided down a certain path by civil servants, or today's Sir Humphrey is saying 'We could do that Minister, but it would be brave" then it takes a tough CoE to drive on with change.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
How about the ones who feel it's 12 years of Tory incompetence and chaos? Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
Other than Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn, who is proposing any change from the Treasury consensus?
That's a re-hash of the "we would have got away with it but for those meddling faceless bureaucrats." The Treasury does what the Chancellor tells them to. If they're astonished to discover it was all wrong, then that it took them 12 years is proof of incompetence.
But it hasn't been 12 years. It's less than 12 months since Sunak announced some of the tax rises that Truss is pledging to reverse.
She isn't planning some massive slash and burn of the state, but rather revering to the tax rates of all of 12 months ago. Oh, the horrors!
We weren't discussing taxation. It was persistent low growth.
Our growth hasn't been persistently that low though. Unfortunately most of our growth went to eliminating Brown's budget deficit he left.
One flaw in how GDP is measured is that it isn't deflated by the budget deficit, it should be. If it was, then our growth would have been much faster in the past decade, and much lower in the decade before that.
Well, it would maybe make sense not to count public sector activity as GDP at all, but I guess that's complicated by the private sector contractors and suppliers used by the public sector. And privatisations/nationalisations would distort the figures.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
What you've got to understand about @IshmaelZ is that he secretly knows he's rather bigoted and hates himself for it. This is why he accuses others of bigotry and tried to provoke them with nonsense about BLM and Colston.
He wants a reaction so he can have the legitimacy to attack what he knows lies in himself, but despises that he can't tackle.
Hence the anger and the drink.
But has a clear eyed view of empire inc slavery. Which is not so easy to attain - much more comfortable as a Brit to go with "it's complicated" and "not uniquely evil".
Again, it is not just that a displeasingly large proportion of Scotch nobility was in the game, they bloody all were (at least in the NE Highlands, the bit I know well). And ditto City of London institutions. As soon as you start looking for the evidence anywhere, you find it.
This must mean what we’ve got now is worse than No-Deal Brexit, right?
Just as a point of information we've had clusterfucks at Dover for years whenever the French went on strike or didn't staff themselves up properly. Look up Operation Stack. And we were also outside Schengen then too, so all passports needed inspection.
Yes, they have to be stamped now too, which maybe takes an extra 3-4 seconds, but that's basically it.
Finding out the real and exact reasons can take quite a while to come out (and normally don't get much publicity).
For example, remember when we had a week of fuel shortages, and it was wall to wall, due to driver shortage, terrible pay and conditions for drivers, Brexit, etc etc etc etc.
The reality was all the above was fake news for the reason for the situation. A small number of petrol stations ran out of petrol because of the change over to the new formulation of petrol. The media then reported this of evidence of fuel shortages, causing a massive panic and a surge in demand, which then threw the whole delivery system totally out of whack.
The official numbers from the industry showed the amount of petrol being delivered before, during and after were at the same historic levels i.e. there was no fuel shortage.
Because Brexit and the EU are questions of identity there will always be a sizeable minority (or sometimes majority) of people deeply unhappy with the status quo. That is doubly true since the referendum drew up the battle lines. It’s also true of Scotland and independence.
Instead of each side dismissing the other’s point of view as irrelevant why can’t we be more creative? Why also can’t the EU be more creative?
We could do with a Good Friday agreement for the UK and EU where those in this country who identify as Brexiteers - businesses and individuals - can carry on their lives and careers free of EU laws and regulations, while those identifying as remain are able to elect to have both the rights had the obligations that come with EU membership.
It worked in NI after the troubles, it works in NI for businesses and individuals with the NIP now. It could probably work for Britain as a whole if people put their minds to it.
I was always in favour of creating single market enclaves in parts of the UK - city of London, a couple of the port towns, a few cities like Brighton or Bristol, the whole of Scotland. Who knows if it would have worked, but the US federal system with its differential taxes, alcohol duties and laws, legal status of cannabis and many other things shows it’s not impossible.
The EU would view that as “cherry picking”
Something that is not often articulated is that many in the EU see the EU as requiring sacrifices for the common good. Giving up subsidising the local industries for example. Various restrictions on trade….
So many politicians in the EU see a country not being constrained by all the rules as a terrible threat - potentially getting the benefits without the sacrifices they had to endure.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
I'm not a fan of either but weed smells infinitely better and more floral than the pungent smell of tobacco.
Hard disagree from me on this one. Tobacco certainly smells unpleasant, but it's a lot less aggressive a smell compared to weed, and you can smell weed at least ten times further away.
The liking or hating the smell of either is strangely related to the observers view of which products are “evil” or “good”.
We are now at the stage where when, in an American cop show, they have an episode where Tobacco Inc is swapping tobacco IP for weed IP with a Mexican Cartel - it’s not even far fetched. Tobacco will be banned in the near future and weed completely legalised.
I don't think your first paragraph is true. I'm fairly confident that tobacco has more harmful health effects overall.
There are some other things I really don't like the smell of, but don't want to ban on that basis.
This must mean what we’ve got now is worse than No-Deal Brexit, right?
Just as a point of information we've had clusterfucks at Dover for years whenever the French went on strike or didn't staff themselves up properly. Look up Operation Stack. And we were also outside Schengen then too, so all passports needed inspection.
Yes, they have to be stamped now too, which maybe takes an extra 3-4 seconds, but that's basically it.
Finding out the real and exact reasons can take quite a while to come out (and normally don't get much publicity).
For example, remember when we had a week of fuel shortages, and it was wall to wall, due to driver shortage, terrible pay and conditions for drivers, Brexit, etc etc etc etc.
The reality was all the above was fake news for the reason for the situation. A small number of petrol stations ran out of petrol because of the change over to the new formulation of petrol. The media then reported this of evidence of fuel shortages, causing a massive panic and a surge in demand, which then threw the whole delivery system totally out of whack.
The official numbers from the industry showed the amount of petrol being delivered before, during and after were at the same historic levels i.e. there was no fuel shortage.
And we were promised there were systematic issues with supply (because of Brexit, naturally), and that fuel shortages would become the new normal.
I think some people really struggle to understand that I'm actually quite satisfied with Brexit.
It's put an end to European integration. No longer do I have to worry about Juncker or Von Der Leyen or the EU Commission or the European Council. Or Macron's latest ravings. No longer do I have to worry about what Merkel thinks as the real decision maker over our interests. No longer do I have to worry about our sovereign powers being progressively eroded by successive treaties of integration, or new EU directives put into effect across the UK that we disagree with but have no choice but to implement. It's put an end to public concerns about mass migration. We can decide our own trading arrangements, regulation and standards. We can structure our agriculture and marine resources however we like. We are responsible for ourselves.
Are there trade-offs? Sure. Are there different decisions I might have made in the negotiations? Sure.
But I feel free, liberated and happy with it and that's exactly what I voted for. I find the future exhilarating, not frightening.
Bloody got COVID for the 3rd time, was feeling pretty crummy all of yesterday and this morning my wife suggested that it's probably COVID. Took the test and it is.
I think it's already on the way out because I don't feel as feverish as yesterday but I still get out of breath walking upstairs. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be gone. This is worse than the version I got in December but not as bad as the March 2020 vintage.
it's strange, because my wife and I are still to get it. We only go to Tesco once a week and walk the dogs. We are both retired as well. Can I ask how active you are in meeting people?
Neither my wife or I have knowingly had Covid yet. I work at Uni and thus mix with thousands. My wife also in contact with people through work. Fun times.
It seems some people will never get it. Or never knowingly get it. One of the quirks of this strange virus.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
I'm not a fan of either but weed smells infinitely better and more floral than the pungent smell of tobacco.
Hard disagree from me on this one. Tobacco certainly smells unpleasant, but it's a lot less aggressive a smell compared to weed, and you can smell weed at least ten times further away.
The liking or hating the smell of either is strangely related to the observers view of which products are “evil” or “good”.
We are now at the stage where when, in an American cop show, they have an episode where Tobacco Inc is swapping tobacco IP for weed IP with a Mexican Cartel - it’s not even far fetched. Tobacco will be banned in the near future and weed completely legalised.
I don't think your first paragraph is true. I'm fairly confident that tobacco has more harmful health effects overall.
There are some other things I really don't like the smell of, but don't want to ban on that basis.
Not much grounds for that confidence. Smoking tobacco is really bad for you, but we only know that because it's the only form of vegetation that we have data for. There is no reason to think that lungs which evolved to breathe fresh air, are any happier with any other sort of smoke. Also, cannabis psychosis is a boringly, undeniably real thing. Tobacco psychosis not so much.
I think some people really struggle to understand that I'm actually quite satisfied with Brexit.
It's put an end to European integration. No longer do I have to worry about Juncker or Von Der Leyen or the EU Commission or the European Council. Or Macron's latest ravings. No longer do I have to worry about what Merkel thinks as the real decision maker over our interests. No longer do I have to worry about our sovereign powers being progressively eroded by successive treaties of integration, or new EU directives put into effect across the UK that we disagree with but have no choice but to implement. It's put an end to public concerns about mass migration. We can decide our own trading arrangements, regulation and standards. We can structure our agriculture and marine resources however we like. We are responsible for ourselves.
Are there trade-offs? Sure. Are there different decisions I might have made in the negotiations? Sure.
But I feel free, liberated and happy with it and that's exactly what I voted for. I find the future exhilarating, not frightening.
Are you one of the pig-shit thick gammons or the other type?
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
Well, all developed countries (except those that have had massive commodities windfalls) have struggled in the post 2008 world. The ever rising cost of pensions and healthcare will continue to fall on workers in the developed world, and we do need answers to how we're going to pay for it.
The UK also has some unique issues: in particular we suffer from high trade deficits and low levels of domestic saving. The consequences of which is that we've moved from being a country which was owed money, to one which owes money.
These issues are nothing to with Brexit, and will not be solved by Brexit itself.
Where Brexit is helpful is in making responsibility for solving those issues - and the UK's broken benefits system - fall directly on elected politicians. There is no hiding behind the EU, or using immigration to solve the issue of a worsening dependency ratio.
While I am personally more - ahem - attracted to Liz Truss, I would be more enthusiastic about her, if she acknowledged some of the problems the UK faced, rather than simply repeating the words "tax cuts" and "deregulation", neither of which directly address the problems of the UK.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
Leavers won't take yes for an answer.
They didn't like the rules of the club any more and that's fine. Or would be, if they knew what rules they weren't supposed to like. But the vast majority don't. So they blather on about sovereignty.
I think @MarqueeMark's description of those people as pig-shit thick gammons is harsh but he seems to know.
Because to most people sovereignty means being supreme at making your own choices, not abiding by other people's choices and having to stick with that without a say.
If a wife in a controlling relationship is constantly told what to do by a domineering husband, and she is desperately unhappy and wants to live her own way, but she has a right to get away from him and divorce him ... would you tell her that sticking with him as he dominates and tells her what to do means she's in control as she has the choice to leave him, therefore she shouldn't get divorced because she's in control by letting him dominate her?
As I said, most people had no clue what rules the UK was signed up to or why we didn't like them any more.
Perhaps if you tell them the terms of the recent Australia trade deal they will likewise be spitting feathers. Or they might apply to North Korea for citizenship. Maybe you should do that latter if you believe that to be truly sovereign you must not come to any agreement with an agreed set of rules.
Except that's not the same thing at all.
Parliament has to vote for the Australia trade deal, if it becomes law it is law because Parliament voted for it. The deal can't then change by itself into something completely different, if a new or amended deal is desired then Parliament must vote for that.
The EU is completely different as it could dynamically create new laws that we didn't get a vote on. It was self-evolving in a way no other agreement is.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
Well, all developed countries (except those that have had massive commodities windfalls) have struggled in the post 2008 world. The ever rising cost of pensions and healthcare will continue to fall on workers in the developed world, and we do need answers to how we're going to pay for it.
The UK also has some unique issues: in particular we suffer from high trade deficits and low levels of domestic saving. The consequences of which is that we've moved from being a country which was owed money, to one which owes money.
These issues are nothing to with Brexit, and will not be solved by Brexit itself.
Where Brexit is helpful is in making responsibility for solving those issues - and the UK's broken benefits system - fall directly on elected politicians. There is no hiding behind the EU, or using immigration to solve the issue of a worsening dependency ratio.
While I am personally more - ahem - attracted to Liz Truss, I would be more enthusiastic about her, if she acknowledged some of the problems the UK faced, rather than simply repeating the words "tax cuts" and "deregulation", neither of which directly address the problems of the UK.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
I'm not a fan of either but weed smells infinitely better and more floral than the pungent smell of tobacco.
Hard disagree from me on this one. Tobacco certainly smells unpleasant, but it's a lot less aggressive a smell compared to weed, and you can smell weed at least ten times further away.
The liking or hating the smell of either is strangely related to the observers view of which products are “evil” or “good”.
We are now at the stage where when, in an American cop show, they have an episode where Tobacco Inc is swapping tobacco IP for weed IP with a Mexican Cartel - it’s not even far fetched. Tobacco will be banned in the near future and weed completely legalised.
I don't think your first paragraph is true. I'm fairly confident that tobacco has more harmful health effects overall.
There are some other things I really don't like the smell of, but don't want to ban on that basis.
Yes tobacco is worse on a health front - as far as current science goes.
Just that the whole “weed doesn’t smell that much and is nice anyway thing”… I used to drink in the basement bar at SOAS. The place stank of it, and you needed to wash your clothes to get rid of the smell. Sound familiar?
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
Leavers won't take yes for an answer.
They didn't like the rules of the club any more and that's fine. Or would be, if they knew what rules they weren't supposed to like. But the vast majority don't. So they blather on about sovereignty.
I think @MarqueeMark's description of those people as pig-shit thick gammons is harsh but he seems to know.
Because to most people sovereignty means being supreme at making your own choices, not abiding by other people's choices and having to stick with that without a say.
If a wife in a controlling relationship is constantly told what to do by a domineering husband, and she is desperately unhappy and wants to live her own way, but she has a right to get away from him and divorce him ... would you tell her that sticking with him as he dominates and tells her what to do means she's in control as she has the choice to leave him, therefore she shouldn't get divorced because she's in control by letting him dominate her?
As I said, most people had no clue what rules the UK was signed up to or why we didn't like them any more.
Perhaps if you tell them the terms of the recent Australia trade deal they will likewise be spitting feathers. Or they might apply to North Korea for citizenship. Maybe you should do that latter if you believe that to be truly sovereign you must not come to any agreement with an agreed set of rules.
Except that's not the same thing at all.
Parliament has to vote for the Australia trade deal, if it becomes law it is law because Parliament voted for it. The deal can't then change by itself into something completely different, if a new or amended deal is desired then Parliament must vote for that.
The EU is completely different as it could dynamically create new laws that we didn't get a vote on. It was self-evolving in a way no other agreement is.
Again rubbish. We voted, in 1975, to join the EU. The EU changed. As the Treaty of Rome makes clear perhaps we shouldn't have been surprised at the direction of change but there you go. The EU had rules which were dynamic. Some of the changes we suggested, that was also part of it.
But we didn't like those changes. Well, those who understood the changes apparently didn't like them. So we left. All perfectly democratic, sovereign, and tickety boo.
Bloody got COVID for the 3rd time, was feeling pretty crummy all of yesterday and this morning my wife suggested that it's probably COVID. Took the test and it is.
I think it's already on the way out because I don't feel as feverish as yesterday but I still get out of breath walking upstairs. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be gone. This is worse than the version I got in December but not as bad as the March 2020 vintage.
it's strange, because my wife and I are still to get it. We only go to Tesco once a week and walk the dogs. We are both retired as well. Can I ask how active you are in meeting people?
Neither my wife or I have knowingly had Covid yet. I work at Uni and thus mix with thousands. My wife also in contact with people through work. Fun times.
It seems some people will never get it. Or never knowingly get it. One of the quirks of this strange virus.
Bloody got COVID for the 3rd time, was feeling pretty crummy all of yesterday and this morning my wife suggested that it's probably COVID. Took the test and it is.
I think it's already on the way out because I don't feel as feverish as yesterday but I still get out of breath walking upstairs. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be gone. This is worse than the version I got in December but not as bad as the March 2020 vintage.
it's strange, because my wife and I are still to get it. We only go to Tesco once a week and walk the dogs. We are both retired as well. Can I ask how active you are in meeting people?
Neither my wife or I have knowingly had Covid yet. I work at Uni and thus mix with thousands. My wife also in contact with people through work. Fun times.
It seems some people will never get it. Or never knowingly get it. One of the quirks of this strange virus.
I’m hoping I’m one of ‘em. Vaccine booster was nasty for about 24 h. If the actual disease is anything like, I don’t want it.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
I'm not a fan of either but weed smells infinitely better and more floral than the pungent smell of tobacco.
Hard disagree from me on this one. Tobacco certainly smells unpleasant, but it's a lot less aggressive a smell compared to weed, and you can smell weed at least ten times further away.
The liking or hating the smell of either is strangely related to the observers view of which products are “evil” or “good”.
We are now at the stage where when, in an American cop show, they have an episode where Tobacco Inc is swapping tobacco IP for weed IP with a Mexican Cartel - it’s not even far fetched. Tobacco will be banned in the near future and weed completely legalised.
I don't think your first paragraph is true. I'm fairly confident that tobacco has more harmful health effects overall.
There are some other things I really don't like the smell of, but don't want to ban on that basis.
Yes tobacco is worse on a health front - as far as current science goes.
Just that the whole “weed doesn’t smell that much and is nice anyway thing”… I used to drink in the basement bar at SOAS. The place stank of it, and you needed to wash your clothes to get rid of the smell. Sound familiar?
"Cannabis smoking may have a greater potential than tobacco smoking to cause lung cancer.[1-4] Cannabis smoke is qualitatively similar to tobacco smoke, although it contains up to twice the concentration of the carcinogenic polyaromatic hydrocarbons.[1] Cannabis is less densely packed than tobacco cigarettes, and tends to be smoked without filters [2] to a smaller butt size,[3] leading to higher concentrations of smoke inhaled. Furthermore, smokers of cannabis inhale more deeply and hold their breath for longer,[4] facilitating the deposition of the carcinogenic products in the lower respiratory tract. These factors are likely to be responsible for the five-fold greater absorption of carbon monoxide from a cannabis joint, compared with a tobacco cigarette of similar size despite similar carbon monoxide concentrations in the smoke inhaled.[4] Several studies have demonstrated pre-cancerous histological [5,6] and molecular [7] abnormalities in the respiratory tracts of cannabis smokers, and the carcinogenic effects of cannabis smoke have been demonstrated in vitro [8] and in different in vivo animal models.[1,9,10] Conversely, there is also evidence that delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol may have anti-carcinogenic effects.[11-13]"
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
Well, all developed countries (except those that have had massive commodities windfalls) have struggled in the post 2008 world. The ever rising cost of pensions and healthcare will continue to fall on workers in the developed world, and we do need answers to how we're going to pay for it.
The UK also has some unique issues: in particular we suffer from high trade deficits and low levels of domestic saving. The consequences of which is that we've moved from being a country which was owed money, to one which owes money.
These issues are nothing to with Brexit, and will not be solved by Brexit itself.
Where Brexit is helpful is in making responsibility for solving those issues - and the UK's broken benefits system - fall directly on elected politicians. There is no hiding behind the EU, or using immigration to solve the issue of a worsening dependency ratio.
While I am personally more - ahem - attracted to Liz Truss, I would be more enthusiastic about her, if she acknowledged some of the problems the UK faced, rather than simply repeating the words "tax cuts" and "deregulation", neither of which directly address the problems of the UK.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
Well, all developed countries (except those that have had massive commodities windfalls) have struggled in the post 2008 world. The ever rising cost of pensions and healthcare will continue to fall on workers in the developed world, and we do need answers to how we're going to pay for it.
The UK also has some unique issues: in particular we suffer from high trade deficits and low levels of domestic saving. The consequences of which is that we've moved from being a country which was owed money, to one which owes money.
These issues are nothing to with Brexit, and will not be solved by Brexit itself.
Where Brexit is helpful is in making responsibility for solving those issues - and the UK's broken benefits system - fall directly on elected politicians. There is no hiding behind the EU, or using immigration to solve the issue of a worsening dependency ratio.
While I am personally more - ahem - attracted to Liz Truss, I would be more enthusiastic about her, if she acknowledged some of the problems the UK faced, rather than simply repeating the words "tax cuts" and "deregulation", neither of which directly address the problems of the UK.
I have the solution: Labour Government.
Well, that's the solution to everything, isn't it?
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
Leavers won't take yes for an answer.
They didn't like the rules of the club any more and that's fine. Or would be, if they knew what rules they weren't supposed to like. But the vast majority don't. So they blather on about sovereignty.
I think @MarqueeMark's description of those people as pig-shit thick gammons is harsh but he seems to know.
Because to most people sovereignty means being supreme at making your own choices, not abiding by other people's choices and having to stick with that without a say.
If a wife in a controlling relationship is constantly told what to do by a domineering husband, and she is desperately unhappy and wants to live her own way, but she has a right to get away from him and divorce him ... would you tell her that sticking with him as he dominates and tells her what to do means she's in control as she has the choice to leave him, therefore she shouldn't get divorced because she's in control by letting him dominate her?
As I said, most people had no clue what rules the UK was signed up to or why we didn't like them any more.
Perhaps if you tell them the terms of the recent Australia trade deal they will likewise be spitting feathers. Or they might apply to North Korea for citizenship. Maybe you should do that latter if you believe that to be truly sovereign you must not come to any agreement with an agreed set of rules.
Except that's not the same thing at all.
Parliament has to vote for the Australia trade deal, if it becomes law it is law because Parliament voted for it. The deal can't then change by itself into something completely different, if a new or amended deal is desired then Parliament must vote for that.
The EU is completely different as it could dynamically create new laws that we didn't get a vote on. It was self-evolving in a way no other agreement is.
Again rubbish. We voted, in 1975, to join the EU. The EU changed. As the Treaty of Rome makes clear perhaps we shouldn't have been surprised at the direction of change but there you go. The EU had rules which were dynamic. Some of the changes we suggested, that was also part of it.
But we didn't like those changes. Well, those who understood the changes apparently didn't like them. So we left. All perfectly democratic, sovereign, and tickety boo.
Wrong. The EU can self-evolve new laws. It can pass new laws that are voted for in a European Parliament and not the UK Parliament. Other nations can change the rules without our agreement.
Other trade deals can't do that. The rules for a UK/Aus trade deal are whatever rules Parliament passes. Australia can't change the rules without our agreement.
The UK in the EU is only as sovereign as Scotland is in the UK.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
Well, all developed countries (except those that have had massive commodities windfalls) have struggled in the post 2008 world. The ever rising cost of pensions and healthcare will continue to fall on workers in the developed world, and we do need answers to how we're going to pay for it.
The UK also has some unique issues: in particular we suffer from high trade deficits and low levels of domestic saving. The consequences of which is that we've moved from being a country which was owed money, to one which owes money.
These issues are nothing to with Brexit, and will not be solved by Brexit itself.
Where Brexit is helpful is in making responsibility for solving those issues - and the UK's broken benefits system - fall directly on elected politicians. There is no hiding behind the EU, or using immigration to solve the issue of a worsening dependency ratio.
While I am personally more - ahem - attracted to Liz Truss, I would be more enthusiastic about her, if she acknowledged some of the problems the UK faced, rather than simply repeating the words "tax cuts" and "deregulation", neither of which directly address the problems of the UK.
I have the solution: Labour Government.
Well, that's the solution to everything, isn't it?
Signing off for now but to coin a phrase “nothing has changed”.
Brexit = a calamity Brexiteers = morons
Goodnight!
Only 10% of your nearly 3,000 posts has ever got a like, and you have flags and offtopics at over a 10% ratio of those - which must be a near record high ratio.
This must mean what we’ve got now is worse than No-Deal Brexit, right?
Just as a point of information we've had clusterfucks at Dover for years whenever the French went on strike or didn't staff themselves up properly. Look up Operation Stack. And we were also outside Schengen then too, so all passports needed inspection.
Yes, they have to be stamped now too, which maybe takes an extra 3-4 seconds, but that's basically it.
Why the fuck does anyone choose to travel via Dover, unless they’re travelling to Libya or Afghanistan and want to get a flavour of their destination before they arrive? If it’s because it’s cheaper, well, Dover is the maritime equivalent of Ryanair, and you get what you pay for.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
A foundation, not the sole foundation.
Interesting thing is how much tea and sugar became part of the urban worker's diet - cheap calories, no alcohol.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
A foundation, not the sole foundation.
Interesting thing is how much tea and sugar became part of the urban worker's diet - cheap calories, no alcohol.
Orwell’s Down & Out in Paris and London is very good on this. 2L of weak country red per hotel kitchen worker per day in Paris, then tea and bread and margerine as a tramp in London.
Absolutely to both - though brewing was also a disinfectant, and small beer a much safer drink than contaminated water.
Signing off for now but to coin a phrase “nothing has changed”.
Brexit = a calamity Brexiteers = morons
Goodnight!
Only 10% of your nearly 3,000 posts has ever got a like, and you have flags and offtopics at over a 10% ratio of those - which must be a near record high ratio.
People aren't exactly loving your content.
I’m not here for likes. If the moderators think I am out of line, they will do the needful.
The fact you had to make this comment is more a reflection of you, rather than me.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
Well, all developed countries (except those that have had massive commodities windfalls) have struggled in the post 2008 world. The ever rising cost of pensions and healthcare will continue to fall on workers in the developed world, and we do need answers to how we're going to pay for it.
The UK also has some unique issues: in particular we suffer from high trade deficits and low levels of domestic saving. The consequences of which is that we've moved from being a country which was owed money, to one which owes money.
These issues are nothing to with Brexit, and will not be solved by Brexit itself.
Where Brexit is helpful is in making responsibility for solving those issues - and the UK's broken benefits system - fall directly on elected politicians. There is no hiding behind the EU, or using immigration to solve the issue of a worsening dependency ratio.
While I am personally more - ahem - attracted to Liz Truss, I would be more enthusiastic about her, if she acknowledged some of the problems the UK faced, rather than simply repeating the words "tax cuts" and "deregulation", neither of which directly address the problems of the UK.
We've moved from blaming the EU for everything to blaming Brexit for everything - Brits love think they're doomed and to have a scapegoat but it's not our fault but the fault of some other idiot.
I voted Leave because I viewed the EU as a constraint and because it was dragging us in a direction I didn't want to go, but the quid pro quo is that we must grow up and start facing our own problems. And have a bit of optimism and self-confidence that we can deal with them too, because we can.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
Leavers won't take yes for an answer.
They didn't like the rules of the club any more and that's fine. Or would be, if they knew what rules they weren't supposed to like. But the vast majority don't. So they blather on about sovereignty.
I think @MarqueeMark's description of those people as pig-shit thick gammons is harsh but he seems to know.
Because to most people sovereignty means being supreme at making your own choices, not abiding by other people's choices and having to stick with that without a say.
If a wife in a controlling relationship is constantly told what to do by a domineering husband, and she is desperately unhappy and wants to live her own way, but she has a right to get away from him and divorce him ... would you tell her that sticking with him as he dominates and tells her what to do means she's in control as she has the choice to leave him, therefore she shouldn't get divorced because she's in control by letting him dominate her?
As I said, most people had no clue what rules the UK was signed up to or why we didn't like them any more.
Perhaps if you tell them the terms of the recent Australia trade deal they will likewise be spitting feathers. Or they might apply to North Korea for citizenship. Maybe you should do that latter if you believe that to be truly sovereign you must not come to any agreement with an agreed set of rules.
Except that's not the same thing at all.
Parliament has to vote for the Australia trade deal, if it becomes law it is law because Parliament voted for it. The deal can't then change by itself into something completely different, if a new or amended deal is desired then Parliament must vote for that.
The EU is completely different as it could dynamically create new laws that we didn't get a vote on. It was self-evolving in a way no other agreement is.
Again rubbish. We voted, in 1975, to join the EU. The EU changed. As the Treaty of Rome makes clear perhaps we shouldn't have been surprised at the direction of change but there you go. The EU had rules which were dynamic. Some of the changes we suggested, that was also part of it.
But we didn't like those changes. Well, those who understood the changes apparently didn't like them. So we left. All perfectly democratic, sovereign, and tickety boo.
Wrong. The EU can self-evolve new laws. It can pass new laws that are voted for in a European Parliament and not the UK Parliament. Other nations can change the rules without our agreement.
Other trade deals can't do that. The rules for a UK/Aus trade deal are whatever rules Parliament passes. Australia can't change the rules without our agreement.
The UK in the EU is only as sovereign as Scotland is in the UK.
As I said, you can't take yes for an answer.
You are guilty of simple thinking, unlike you. Unless you realise that to accept the reality would undermine your argument.
Clubs have rules. Some are simple - you must wear a tie at lunch. Others, as with the EU, are complex and include the ability to change some elements. They are both rules based institutions. Members of both types are sovereign.
We didn't like the way the EU evolved - hurrah! We voted to leave. Again sovereign.
I am applauding the UK's decision to leave (which I disagreed with but do what). It was because we didn't like the rules. Not because we weren't sovereign.
Sovereignty is just a fig leaf that people use to justify their decision in the absence of any valid reason.
Signing off for now but to coin a phrase “nothing has changed”.
Brexit = a calamity Brexiteers = morons
Goodnight!
Only 10% of your nearly 3,000 posts has ever got a like, and you have flags and offtopics at over a 10% ratio of those - which must be a near record high ratio.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
Well, all developed countries (except those that have had massive commodities windfalls) have struggled in the post 2008 world. The ever rising cost of pensions and healthcare will continue to fall on workers in the developed world, and we do need answers to how we're going to pay for it.
The UK also has some unique issues: in particular we suffer from high trade deficits and low levels of domestic saving. The consequences of which is that we've moved from being a country which was owed money, to one which owes money.
These issues are nothing to with Brexit, and will not be solved by Brexit itself.
Where Brexit is helpful is in making responsibility for solving those issues - and the UK's broken benefits system - fall directly on elected politicians. There is no hiding behind the EU, or using immigration to solve the issue of a worsening dependency ratio.
While I am personally more - ahem - attracted to Liz Truss, I would be more enthusiastic about her, if she acknowledged some of the problems the UK faced, rather than simply repeating the words "tax cuts" and "deregulation", neither of which directly address the problems of the UK.
I have the solution: Labour Government.
Well, that's the solution to everything, isn't it?
Ironically, a Labour government might make the UK more accepting of Brexit. By removing the ERG having any influence over the Prime Minister and government, and with Labour negotiating a fresh deal which mitigates some of our present problems might convince some people that it was wrong that perhaps it's not too bad.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
I'm not a fan of either but weed smells infinitely better and more floral than the pungent smell of tobacco.
Hard disagree from me on this one. Tobacco certainly smells unpleasant, but it's a lot less aggressive a smell compared to weed, and you can smell weed at least ten times further away.
The liking or hating the smell of either is strangely related to the observers view of which products are “evil” or “good”.
We are now at the stage where when, in an American cop show, they have an episode where Tobacco Inc is swapping tobacco IP for weed IP with a Mexican Cartel - it’s not even far fetched. Tobacco will be banned in the near future and weed completely legalised.
I don't think your first paragraph is true. I'm fairly confident that tobacco has more harmful health effects overall.
There are some other things I really don't like the smell of, but don't want to ban on that basis.
Yes tobacco is worse on a health front - as far as current science goes.
Just that the whole “weed doesn’t smell that much and is nice anyway thing”… I used to drink in the basement bar at SOAS. The place stank of it, and you needed to wash your clothes to get rid of the smell. Sound familiar?
For physical heath issues tobacco is worse than weed.
For mental health issues weed is way worse than tobacco and could result in long term issues that require a lot of care.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
Leavers won't take yes for an answer.
They didn't like the rules of the club any more and that's fine. Or would be, if they knew what rules they weren't supposed to like. But the vast majority don't. So they blather on about sovereignty.
I think @MarqueeMark's description of those people as pig-shit thick gammons is harsh but he seems to know.
Because to most people sovereignty means being supreme at making your own choices, not abiding by other people's choices and having to stick with that without a say.
If a wife in a controlling relationship is constantly told what to do by a domineering husband, and she is desperately unhappy and wants to live her own way, but she has a right to get away from him and divorce him ... would you tell her that sticking with him as he dominates and tells her what to do means she's in control as she has the choice to leave him, therefore she shouldn't get divorced because she's in control by letting him dominate her?
As I said, most people had no clue what rules the UK was signed up to or why we didn't like them any more.
Perhaps if you tell them the terms of the recent Australia trade deal they will likewise be spitting feathers. Or they might apply to North Korea for citizenship. Maybe you should do that latter if you believe that to be truly sovereign you must not come to any agreement with an agreed set of rules.
Except that's not the same thing at all.
Parliament has to vote for the Australia trade deal, if it becomes law it is law because Parliament voted for it. The deal can't then change by itself into something completely different, if a new or amended deal is desired then Parliament must vote for that.
The EU is completely different as it could dynamically create new laws that we didn't get a vote on. It was self-evolving in a way no other agreement is.
Again rubbish. We voted, in 1975, to join the EU. The EU changed. As the Treaty of Rome makes clear perhaps we shouldn't have been surprised at the direction of change but there you go. The EU had rules which were dynamic. Some of the changes we suggested, that was also part of it.
But we didn't like those changes. Well, those who understood the changes apparently didn't like them. So we left. All perfectly democratic, sovereign, and tickety boo.
Wrong. The EU can self-evolve new laws. It can pass new laws that are voted for in a European Parliament and not the UK Parliament. Other nations can change the rules without our agreement.
Other trade deals can't do that. The rules for a UK/Aus trade deal are whatever rules Parliament passes. Australia can't change the rules without our agreement.
The UK in the EU is only as sovereign as Scotland is in the UK.
As I said, you can't take yes for an answer.
You are guilty of simple thinking, unlike you. Unless you realise that to accept the reality would undermine your argument.
Clubs have rules. Some are simple - you must wear a tie at lunch. Others, as with the EU, are complex and include the ability to change some elements. They are both rules based institutions. Members of both types are sovereign.
We didn't like the way the EU evolved - hurrah! We voted to leave. Again sovereign.
I am applauding the UK's decision to leave (which I disagreed with but do what). It was because we didn't like the rules. Not because we weren't sovereign.
Sovereignty is just a fig leaf that people use to justify their decision in the absence of any valid reason.
No other agreement we have joined can change the rules while we are members without our consent.
Trade agreement rules are fixed and approved by Parliament. To change the rules requires Parliamentary approval.
The EU, unlike any other deals, has its own Parliament, its own elections etc. It could introduce new laws that Parliament hadn't approved, which vanilla trade deals can't do.
There will be no UK/Aus trade agreement politicians or elections or Commission determining new laws that our Parliament hasn't approved.
By being self-evolving without our Parliament approving new laws, the EU itself was sovereign.
Bloody got COVID for the 3rd time, was feeling pretty crummy all of yesterday and this morning my wife suggested that it's probably COVID. Took the test and it is.
I think it's already on the way out because I don't feel as feverish as yesterday but I still get out of breath walking upstairs. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be gone. This is worse than the version I got in December but not as bad as the March 2020 vintage.
it's strange, because my wife and I are still to get it. We only go to Tesco once a week and walk the dogs. We are both retired as well. Can I ask how active you are in meeting people?
Neither my wife or I have knowingly had Covid yet. I work at Uni and thus mix with thousands. My wife also in contact with people through work. Fun times.
It seems some people will never get it. Or never knowingly get it. One of the quirks of this strange virus.
I believe the latest estimate is that about 15% of the population has never contracted COVID, but that this percentage continues to fall: in the latest wavelet, about half of infections were amongst those who'd dodged it up until now.
It wouldn't surprise me if there were a certain number of people whom the virus is poor at infecting for whatever reason, but even if that is the case we've clearly not come down to an irreducible core of the resistant just yet.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
I'm not a fan of either but weed smells infinitely better and more floral than the pungent smell of tobacco.
Hard disagree from me on this one. Tobacco certainly smells unpleasant, but it's a lot less aggressive a smell compared to weed, and you can smell weed at least ten times further away.
The liking or hating the smell of either is strangely related to the observers view of which products are “evil” or “good”.
We are now at the stage where when, in an American cop show, they have an episode where Tobacco Inc is swapping tobacco IP for weed IP with a Mexican Cartel - it’s not even far fetched. Tobacco will be banned in the near future and weed completely legalised.
I don't think your first paragraph is true. I'm fairly confident that tobacco has more harmful health effects overall.
There are some other things I really don't like the smell of, but don't want to ban on that basis.
Yes tobacco is worse on a health front - as far as current science goes.
Just that the whole “weed doesn’t smell that much and is nice anyway thing”… I used to drink in the basement bar at SOAS. The place stank of it, and you needed to wash your clothes to get rid of the smell. Sound familiar?
For physical heath issues tobacco is worse than weed.
For mental health issues weed is way worse than tobacco and could result in long term issues that require a lot of care.
Stick to booze, people! (Thinks Leon, thinks maybe not.)
Signing off for now but to coin a phrase “nothing has changed”.
Brexit = a calamity Brexiteers = morons
Goodnight!
Only 10% of your nearly 3,000 posts has ever got a like, and you have flags and offtopics at over a 10% ratio of those - which must be a near record high ratio.
People aren't exactly loving your content.
What ratio is to be aimed for?
I dont know the answer for that, but part of me dies inside when an absolute ‘zinger’ gets no likes at all...
Signing off for now but to coin a phrase “nothing has changed”.
Brexit = a calamity Brexiteers = morons
Goodnight!
Only 10% of your nearly 3,000 posts has ever got a like, and you have flags and offtopics at over a 10% ratio of those - which must be a near record high ratio.
People aren't exactly loving your content.
I’m not here for likes. If the moderators think I am out of line, they will do the needful.
The fact you had to make this comment is more a reflection of you, rather than me.
You've ruffled his feathers and he will now target you. You're doing well, keep going!
I reckon 4 April 2023 will be a momentous day. Someone will finally read some pb posts from the other side about Brexit and be the first to actually change their mind, and admit they were wrong. We might get a second turncoat by the end of 2024.
Lol. I wonder if we will ever see the last PB comment on Brexit? Or will the Singularity come first?
We entered 50 years ago and the debate was in full flow 40+ years later.
The Act of Union was 1707 and PBers are still troubled by the detail.
The outcome of Henry II invasion of Ireland (1171) is still getting an airing.
Brexit has hardly started. Eg, we have yet to see what a Lab/LD government makes of it. We have yet to see what a ScotRef2 debate brings up.
History has long arms. Peter Frankopan's best seller 'The Silk Road' is a hot property. It deals with things like the war between the East Romans and Sasanians from 600-630CE.
Signing off for now but to coin a phrase “nothing has changed”.
Brexit = a calamity Brexiteers = morons
Goodnight!
Only 10% of your nearly 3,000 posts has ever got a like, and you have flags and offtopics at over a 10% ratio of those - which must be a near record high ratio.
People aren't exactly loving your content.
What ratio is to be aimed for?
I dont know the answer for that, but part of me dies inside when an absolute ‘zinger’ gets no likes at all...
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
And yet when I put the argument to you re our sovereignty earlier today you declined to respond or just threw out insults without dealing with the argument. Ignoring the argument and saying the same stuff is not fruitful and just looks like a lost argument.
Leavers won't take yes for an answer.
They didn't like the rules of the club any more and that's fine. Or would be, if they knew what rules they weren't supposed to like. But the vast majority don't. So they blather on about sovereignty.
I think @MarqueeMark's description of those people as pig-shit thick gammons is harsh but he seems to know.
Because to most people sovereignty means being supreme at making your own choices, not abiding by other people's choices and having to stick with that without a say.
If a wife in a controlling relationship is constantly told what to do by a domineering husband, and she is desperately unhappy and wants to live her own way, but she has a right to get away from him and divorce him ... would you tell her that sticking with him as he dominates and tells her what to do means she's in control as she has the choice to leave him, therefore she shouldn't get divorced because she's in control by letting him dominate her?
As I said, most people had no clue what rules the UK was signed up to or why we didn't like them any more.
Perhaps if you tell them the terms of the recent Australia trade deal they will likewise be spitting feathers. Or they might apply to North Korea for citizenship. Maybe you should do that latter if you believe that to be truly sovereign you must not come to any agreement with an agreed set of rules.
Except that's not the same thing at all.
Parliament has to vote for the Australia trade deal, if it becomes law it is law because Parliament voted for it. The deal can't then change by itself into something completely different, if a new or amended deal is desired then Parliament must vote for that.
The EU is completely different as it could dynamically create new laws that we didn't get a vote on. It was self-evolving in a way no other agreement is.
Again rubbish. We voted, in 1975, to join the EU. The EU changed. As the Treaty of Rome makes clear perhaps we shouldn't have been surprised at the direction of change but there you go. The EU had rules which were dynamic. Some of the changes we suggested, that was also part of it.
But we didn't like those changes. Well, those who understood the changes apparently didn't like them. So we left. All perfectly democratic, sovereign, and tickety boo.
Wrong. The EU can self-evolve new laws. It can pass new laws that are voted for in a European Parliament and not the UK Parliament. Other nations can change the rules without our agreement.
Other trade deals can't do that. The rules for a UK/Aus trade deal are whatever rules Parliament passes. Australia can't change the rules without our agreement.
The UK in the EU is only as sovereign as Scotland is in the UK.
As I said, you can't take yes for an answer.
You are guilty of simple thinking, unlike you. Unless you realise that to accept the reality would undermine your argument.
Clubs have rules. Some are simple - you must wear a tie at lunch. Others, as with the EU, are complex and include the ability to change some elements. They are both rules based institutions. Members of both types are sovereign.
We didn't like the way the EU evolved - hurrah! We voted to leave. Again sovereign.
I am applauding the UK's decision to leave (which I disagreed with but do what). It was because we didn't like the rules. Not because we weren't sovereign.
Sovereignty is just a fig leaf that people use to justify their decision in the absence of any valid reason.
What utter, insulting, hairy old bollocks
Is Greece sovereign in the EU? By your definition, yes. There is a mechanism for leaving. Article 50
Can Greece ACTUALLY leave? No. Because it is in the euro. It would be destroyed economically by the markets - ten times more than it has - if it left. So it has next to no sovereignty by YOUR definition
You just don't like the fact the sovereignty argument is unassailable. Because you hate Brexit and therefore you hate that it can be justified, on fundamental grounds. But so it is. No amount of queues at Dover or cheese export crises will take away from the fact that for those of us who valued democracy and sovereignty, Brexit was, is and always will be the right choice, and this argument cannot be gainsaid
At this point, I think Labour would make a success out of Brexit - whatever that means - with Starmer at the helm. The Tories don't have a clue, they've had plenty of chances. Goodbye.
Signing off for now but to coin a phrase “nothing has changed”.
Brexit = a calamity Brexiteers = morons
Goodnight!
Only 10% of your nearly 3,000 posts has ever got a like, and you have flags and offtopics at over a 10% ratio of those - which must be a near record high ratio.
People aren't exactly loving your content.
I’m not here for likes. If the moderators think I am out of line, they will do the needful.
The fact you had to make this comment is more a reflection of you, rather than me.
Signing off for now but to coin a phrase “nothing has changed”.
Brexit = a calamity Brexiteers = morons
Goodnight!
Only 10% of your nearly 3,000 posts has ever got a like, and you have flags and offtopics at over a 10% ratio of those - which must be a near record high ratio.
People aren't exactly loving your content.
I’m not here for likes. If the moderators think I am out of line, they will do the needful.
The fact you had to make this comment is more a reflection of you, rather than me.
Not really. He nailed you with that comment, and you haven't even got the good grace to conceded he might have a point. Something for you to ponder before you post again.
Comments
One flaw in how GDP is measured is that it isn't deflated by the budget deficit, it should be. If it was, then our growth would have been much faster in the past decade, and much lower in the decade before that.
You do yourself down slightly but if that's how you would describe yourself then fine.
Losing elections to those who are pig-shit thick happens all the time. We came close to it in 2017 and 2019.
Johnson is a thoroughly corrupt liar
Uncontroversial statements, but we are asked to believe that his sensational and narrow victory in 2016 represented the Noble, Untrammelled Will of the British People, Gawd bless 'em, and not an illustration of the efficacy of corruption and dishonesty in acquiring the votes of, your words, pigshit thick gammons.
Recall Thiel's creed of freedomite political faith practically begins "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible" and pins the origin of the rot on "the extension of the franchise to women" [Cato Institute].
Leavers were a small minority for decades.
Meantime, last week,
Polling by YouGov for The Times found that the majority of people – 53% – said the UK had been wrong to leave the EU. Curtice said this was a “record high”.
The same poll also found that only around a third (35%) of people thought the UK had been right to leave the EU. A total of 12% of respondents said they did not know.…
You need to work on your put downs.
As such, the bulk of the obsession does seem driven by the government. A lot of people do criticise Brexit and the aftermath, but the government is the one which, rather than simply point to success, falls back on a narrative of internal traitors, which the existence of a bitter commentariat and fringe groups does not justify.
It is, instead, clearly a tactic to proclaim Brexit under threat as a defence mechanism, and that had diminishing returns.
Only Brexiteer fan of Enoch I can think of was isam.
They didn't like the rules of the club any more and that's fine. Or would be, if they knew what rules they weren't supposed to like. But the vast majority don't. So they blather on about sovereignty.
I think @MarqueeMark's description of those people as pig-shit thick gammons is harsh but he seems to know.
Frustrate the opponent into giving up and you win, by their logic.
But be suspicious of it as a tactic. Same with a lawyer who bangs on emotionally or about moral issues, rather than the law or the facts.
We voted to leave and had a GE backing get Brexit done, so the question of right or wrong is closed. We've left.
Now if you have a poll showing a majority wanting us to join afresh, that might be slightly interesting.
Go on Truss cancel the Social Care improvements and watch the reaction of your target audience.
Perhaps the LDs might or should stick something in their manifesto about closer ties and see how people respond.
BREXIT achieved this - it found a large number of politicians who would, in the normal course of things, vote for anything their party proposed. Labour politicians would would vote for the Rwandan plan, just so long as it was official Labour policy etc.
Suddenly, these people found a hill to die on. The problem was that they thought that they needed to actually die on that hill. Rather than using that conviction to fight *for* something.
So they wouldn’t vote for BREXIT. They wouldn’t vote against it. They just hoped something would turn up.
It did.
“Good day to be alive, he said….
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel
Is just a freight train coming your way”
He wants a reaction so he can have the legitimacy to attack what he knows lies in himself, but despises that he can't tackle.
Hence the anger and the drink.
So you’re now, as usual, changing the topic.
If a wife in a controlling relationship is constantly told what to do by a domineering husband, and she is desperately unhappy and wants to live her own way, but she has a right to get away from him and divorce him ... would you tell her that sticking with him as he dominates and tells her what to do means she's in control as she has the choice to leave him, therefore she shouldn't get divorced because she's in control by letting him dominate her?
If a party proposes closer relations with the EU up to and including applying for membership at a future GE, then the public will get the chance to vote for it eventually.
This piece on a meeting of Brian Coxes is lovely.
There's no sign that the people who haven't accepted we voted to Leave will get a majority for voting to Join the EU in less than four decades, if ever.
Mid term polls showing a past decision might have been slightly wrong is neither her not there.
Perhaps if you tell them the terms of the recent Australia trade deal they will likewise be spitting feathers. Or they might apply to North Korea for citizenship. Maybe you should do that latter if you believe that to be truly sovereign you must not come to any agreement with an agreed set of rules.
Isn't being a democratic sovereign nation wonderful.
For adult readers, it wasn't Colston himself (a maligned character who dedicated the vast majority of his slaving wealth to good works) so much as the identity of his boss, James II (the King bloke) which is a clue to the importance of thye enterprise to the country as a whole. That. plus I go trail hunting quite a lot in the Bristol hinterland, and when I nosily google the big houses which give lawn meets on Saturdays, they are all built on slave money. Not a surprisingly large percentage of them, all of them.
It is frightening how useful, useful idiots are. British slave trade of Africans to British colonies, Indian women forced into prostitution under the Cantonment acts, South African concentration camps. Sheer murderous balls-out racism, all wiped out by pure historical ignorance and a sprinkling of magic The Raj dust from a flag flapping labrador fancier.
Fun times.
The Thunder scored 236, which the commentators reckoned was about par, so a fair chance of a tight finish.
Instead of each side dismissing the other’s point of view as irrelevant why can’t we be more creative? Why also can’t the EU be more creative?
We could do with a Good Friday agreement for the UK and EU where those in this country who identify as Brexiteers - businesses and individuals - can carry on their lives and careers free of EU laws and regulations, while those identifying as remain are able to elect to have both the rights had the obligations that come with EU membership.
It worked in NI after the troubles, it works in NI for businesses and individuals with the NIP
now. It could probably work for Britain as a whole if people put their minds to it.
I was always in favour of creating single market enclaves in parts of the UK - city of London, a couple of the port towns, a few cities like Brighton or Bristol, the whole of
Scotland. Who knows if it would have worked, but the US federal system with its differential taxes, alcohol duties and laws, legal status of cannabis and many other things shows it’s not impossible.
Yes, they have to be stamped now too, which maybe takes an extra 3-4 seconds, but that's basically it.
Earlier today in response to one of your typically asinine pointless soul-wearying, life-force-eroding non-comment ‘comments’, the PB equivalent of the ‘fecal vomiting’ known to occur as brain death approaches, and the convulsing body goes into reverse by disgorging turds through the mouth - an excrescence so uncannily like your entire commentary here these last 348 years - I called you a ‘bum faced old git’
I haven’t, in point of fact - and I hope the moderators take note - repeated the allegation that you are a ‘bum faced old git’, because I sensitively realised you ARE a ‘bum faced old git’, and I have no wish to cause offence
We are now at the stage where when, in an American cop show, they have an episode where Tobacco Inc is swapping tobacco IP for weed IP with a Mexican Cartel - it’s not even far fetched. Tobacco will be banned in the near future and weed completely legalised.
I don't think that's quite right. In theory, yes. But when you are being presented with data saying something you want to do is a bad idea, or being helpfully guided down a certain path by civil servants, or today's Sir Humphrey is saying 'We could do that Minister, but it would be brave" then it takes a tough CoE to drive on with change.
https://www.spanglefish.com/slavesandhighlanders/index.asp
Again, it is not just that a displeasingly large proportion of Scotch nobility was in the game, they bloody all were (at least in the NE Highlands, the bit I know well). And ditto City of London institutions. As soon as you start looking for the evidence anywhere, you find it.
For example, remember when we had a week of fuel shortages, and it was wall to wall, due to driver shortage, terrible pay and conditions for drivers, Brexit, etc etc etc etc.
The reality was all the above was fake news for the reason for the situation. A small number of petrol stations ran out of petrol because of the change over to the new formulation of petrol. The media then reported this of evidence of fuel shortages, causing a massive panic and a surge in demand, which then threw the whole delivery system totally out of whack.
The official numbers from the industry showed the amount of petrol being delivered before, during and after were at the same historic levels i.e. there was no fuel shortage.
Something that is not often articulated is that many in the EU see the EU as requiring sacrifices for the common good. Giving up subsidising the local industries for example. Various restrictions on trade….
So many politicians in the EU see a country not being constrained by all the rules as a terrible threat - potentially getting the benefits without the sacrifices they had to endure.
There are some other things I really don't like the smell of, but don't want to ban on that basis.
It's put an end to European integration. No longer do I have to worry about Juncker or Von Der Leyen or the EU Commission or the European Council. Or Macron's latest ravings. No longer do I have to worry about what Merkel thinks as the real decision maker over our interests. No longer do I have to worry about our sovereign powers being progressively eroded by successive treaties of integration, or new EU directives put into effect across the UK that we disagree with but have no choice but to implement. It's put an end to public concerns about mass migration. We can decide our own trading arrangements, regulation and standards. We can structure our agriculture and marine resources however we like. We are responsible for ourselves.
Are there trade-offs? Sure. Are there different decisions I might have made in the negotiations? Sure.
But I feel free, liberated and happy with it and that's exactly what I voted for. I find the future exhilarating, not frightening.
She's welcome at Labour Conference.
The UK also has some unique issues: in particular we suffer from high trade deficits and low levels of domestic saving. The consequences of which is that we've moved from being a country which was owed money, to one which owes money.
These issues are nothing to with Brexit, and will not be solved by Brexit itself.
Where Brexit is helpful is in making responsibility for solving those issues - and the UK's broken benefits system - fall directly on elected politicians. There is no hiding behind the EU, or using immigration to solve the issue of a worsening dependency ratio.
While I am personally more - ahem - attracted to Liz Truss, I would be more enthusiastic about her, if she acknowledged some of the problems the UK faced, rather than simply repeating the words "tax cuts" and "deregulation", neither of which directly address the problems of the UK.
Parliament has to vote for the Australia trade deal, if it becomes law it is law because Parliament voted for it. The deal can't then change by itself into something completely different, if a new or amended deal is desired then Parliament must vote for that.
The EU is completely different as it could dynamically create new laws that we didn't get a vote on. It was self-evolving in a way no other agreement is.
Just that the whole “weed doesn’t smell that much and is nice anyway thing”… I used to drink in the basement bar at SOAS. The place stank of it, and you needed to wash your clothes to get rid of the smell. Sound familiar?
But we didn't like those changes. Well, those who understood the changes apparently didn't like them. So we left. All perfectly democratic, sovereign, and tickety boo.
Brexit = a calamity
Brexiteers = morons
Goodnight!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2516340/
The Tories can develop some sensible policies and go back to being a proper institution. And Labour will have to show they can do anything.
Other trade deals can't do that. The rules for a UK/Aus trade deal are whatever rules Parliament passes. Australia can't change the rules without our agreement.
The UK in the EU is only as sovereign as Scotland is in the UK.
People aren't exactly loving your content.
The fact you had to make this comment is more a reflection of you, rather than me.
I voted Leave because I viewed the EU as a constraint and because it was dragging us in a direction I didn't want to go, but the quid pro quo is that we must grow up and start facing our own problems. And have a bit of optimism and self-confidence that we can deal with them too, because we can.
You are guilty of simple thinking, unlike you. Unless you realise that to accept the reality would undermine your argument.
Clubs have rules. Some are simple - you must wear a tie at lunch. Others, as with the EU, are complex and include the ability to change some elements. They are both rules based institutions. Members of both types are sovereign.
We didn't like the way the EU evolved - hurrah! We voted to leave. Again sovereign.
I am applauding the UK's decision to leave (which I disagreed with but do what). It was because we didn't like the rules. Not because we weren't sovereign.
Sovereignty is just a fig leaf that people use to justify their decision in the absence of any valid reason.
For mental health issues weed is way worse than tobacco and could result in long term issues that require a lot of care.
Trade agreement rules are fixed and approved by Parliament. To change the rules requires Parliamentary approval.
The EU, unlike any other deals, has its own Parliament, its own elections etc. It could introduce new laws that Parliament hadn't approved, which vanilla trade deals can't do.
There will be no UK/Aus trade agreement politicians or elections or Commission determining new laws that our Parliament hasn't approved.
By being self-evolving without our Parliament approving new laws, the EU itself was sovereign.
It wouldn't surprise me if there were a certain number of people whom the virus is poor at infecting for whatever reason, but even if that is the case we've clearly not come down to an irreducible core of the resistant just yet.
The Act of Union was 1707 and PBers are still troubled by the detail.
The outcome of Henry II invasion of Ireland (1171) is still getting an airing.
Brexit has hardly started. Eg, we have yet to see what a Lab/LD government makes of it. We have yet to see what a ScotRef2 debate brings up.
History has long arms. Peter Frankopan's best seller 'The Silk Road' is a hot property. It deals with things like the war between the East Romans and Sasanians from 600-630CE.
Is Greece sovereign in the EU? By your definition, yes. There is a mechanism for leaving. Article 50
Can Greece ACTUALLY leave? No. Because it is in the euro. It would be destroyed economically by the markets - ten times more than it has - if it left. So it has next to no sovereignty by YOUR definition
You just don't like the fact the sovereignty argument is unassailable. Because you hate Brexit and therefore you hate that it can be justified, on fundamental grounds. But so it is. No amount of queues at Dover or cheese export crises will take away from the fact that for those of us who valued democracy and sovereignty, Brexit was, is and always will be the right choice, and this argument cannot be gainsaid
Here endeth the debate
The "votes" speak for themselves.