Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

YouGov’s CON members’ polling head to heads – politicalbetting.com

1246711

Comments

  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    edited July 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Because sensible gay rights have been achieved in full so they have no reason to continue to exist campaigning for that. It would be like still having a charity campaigning for women to have the vote.

    Stonewall's complete success in achieving full acceptance and equality for homosexuality has been a great achievement but left them without a purpose as an institution. Many former campaigners for homosexuality to be treated equally have left because the campaign has been won.

    Nature abhors a vacuum so they've adopted an extreme trans position to give themselves a purpose.
    Have to disagree there. Conversion therapy still exists in this country and there's still young LGB people who are disowned by their families and left with nothing just because of who they are. There's plenty to campaign for without having to pivot to trans issues.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    MISTY said:

    murali_s said:

    Sunak is obviously the sane choice. He’s boring but slightly less boring than SKS. Truss is just a crazy fruitcake…

    So as a non-conservative supporter, you would prefer we chose Truss to make your victory bigger?

    No. Sunak is far and away the candidate labour would like to face.
    If the Tories choose Truss, the country is f*cked and a progressive landslide is assured at the next GE. That is of course good news.

    However, we are two years away from a GE and we are in the midst of an economic storm. We need sane calm governance, not knee jerk, crazy and volatile leadership.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Went to an exhibition in Nice of Italian art and film from 1965-1975. A series of great still photos of the 'Transvesti'. I can't find the present debate interesting in any way but Soho at its best (mid 90's) never generated the pizzazz of these Italian cross-dressers
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 880

    So when Liz “no detail” Truss says she’s going to repeal all “remaining EU laws” what does she actually mean?

    What does it matter? As long as she says the words the selectorate want to hear then she will win.

    If Johnsonism taught anything as a political philosophy, it is "Lie today to get to tomorrow. And keep doing it"
    And keep doing it. Until you can't. I'm hoping Boris will be a cautionary tale, perhaps with a twist of Truss in the tail. Either way, I hope that they both provide an example of the consequences of short-term lying to cling onto power. Other politicians should take note when such lessons come along (or rather, when they foist such lessons on us).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,264

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Definite ramping up of the rhetoric by Sunak - calling Truss "immoral" for planning immediate tax cuts. https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1550775054593654784

    Sunak is immoral for raising taxes on workers while cutting taxes on triple lock retirees.

    Truss isn't AFAIK proposing cutting tax rates below what they were under those notorious ERG extremists George Osborne or Philip Hammond.

    PS amongst the first thing that George Osborne did when he became Chancellor was to reject and reverse the rise in the National Insurance "jobs tax" that Labour had put in place.

    If it's good enough for Osborne, when there was "no money left" then why not Truss?
    Because there is far, far less money left now than they was even then given how much is being spent on things like social care...
    And the way to get more money isn't to throttle workers and corporations with an ever higher tax ratchet.
    Isn't it.

    The way to raise more money is to increase the average productivity per worker and encouraging companies to do that makes perfect sense.

    2 ways of doing that are to have high employment costs for companies (so encourage them to ensure time isn't wasted) and incentives to invest.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,689

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    The transformation of historians into partisan political commentators is not necessarily to their or our advantage.
    For your consideration in the all time list of great Twitter burns.

    https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1549370467580084225
    https://twitter.com/katimcf/status/1549492282000285699
    I prefer this response below katimcf's


    Robert Tombs is quite right: it's sensationalist nonsense.

    The Government of India Act 1919 was passed several years before that drama is set and transferred agriculture, local government, health, and education to provincial councils under local Indians. It only reserved currency, central administration, defence , foreign affairs, and communications to the Viceroy. As the King-Emperor said at the time:

    "The Government of India Act of 1833 opened the door for Indians to public office and employment. The Act of 1858 transferred the administration from the Company to the Crown and laid the foundations of public life which exist in India today. The Act of 1861 sowed the seed of representative institutions, and the seed was quickened into life by the Act of 1909. The Act which has now become law entrusts the elected representative of the people with a definite share in the Government and points the way to full responsible Government hereafter".

    I repeat: its preamble declared that "the objective of the British Government was the gradual introduction of responsible government in India."

    In other words, just like Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. The story of India is that we consistently did all this about 20-30 years too late, not that we acted as Nazis or proto-Nazis.

    To say we did is insulting, inaccurate, sensationalist, misleading and dangerous.

    Bad history of yesteryear leads to bad policy in future, and this sort of stuff absolutely needs to be called out - no matter how unfashionable it is to do so.
    That may have been the objective but you can't deny that the policy and outcomes were a humanitarian disaster.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    Um no. There may be anti-trans people though I certainly don't see it in the way that anti gay sentiment was prevalent in my youth. There certainly isn't on here: there are people saying protect women, protect children and actually protect the genuinely trans from predators shits and opportunists. You as usual are blundering around in a gammon dressed as woke mode looking for the right on side of the argument. You think this is harmless. It is not.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,087
    The members will send their votes in for Truss as soon as they receive their packs
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    Um no. There may be anti-trans people though I certainly don't see it in the way that anti gay sentiment was prevalent in my youth. There certainly isn't on here: there are people saying protect women, protect children and actually protect the genuinely trans from predators shits and opportunists. You as usual are blundering around in a gammon dressed as woke mode looking for the right on side of the argument. You think this is harmless. It is not.
    LOL. No.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,751
    Hmm. Somewhat tempted by the Truss percentages, but I'm all green and have fiddled with this market quite a lot so I think I'll just leave it and wait for money to arrive.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,963
    edited July 2022
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Definite ramping up of the rhetoric by Sunak - calling Truss "immoral" for planning immediate tax cuts. https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1550775054593654784

    Sunak is immoral for raising taxes on workers while cutting taxes on triple lock retirees.

    Truss isn't AFAIK proposing cutting tax rates below what they were under those notorious ERG extremists George Osborne or Philip Hammond.

    PS amongst the first thing that George Osborne did when he became Chancellor was to reject and reverse the rise in the National Insurance "jobs tax" that Labour had put in place.

    If it's good enough for Osborne, when there was "no money left" then why not Truss?
    Because there is far, far less money left now than they was even then given how much is being spent on things like social care...
    And the way to get more money isn't to throttle workers and corporations with an ever higher tax ratchet.
    Isn't it.

    The way to raise more money is to increase the average productivity per worker and encouraging companies to do that makes perfect sense.

    2 ways of doing that are to have high employment costs for companies (so encourage them to ensure time isn't wasted) and incentives to invest.
    The free market is already encouraging productivity increases by higher labour demands due to full employment and an end to virtually infinite cheap labour.

    Smashing labour and corporations with higher taxation while funding an expansion of the welfare state and reducing taxes on those on welfare isn't productive.

    You increase taxes on that which you want to discourage. Discouraging jobs and firms isn't productive.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,755
    Foxy said:

    It does not appear to be widely reported that lower-paid NHS workers are effectively getting a 10% pay rise, unless I have missed it. Good news for them.

    Yes not quite 10% for AFC band 2, so receptionists, clinic clerks and HCAs.

    Similar in my area. Lowest grades are being offered about 9%, everyone else 'up to' 3%. So we see even more clumping of salaries between skills levels, experience etc and those who are new or don't need specialist knowledge.

    Combined with the grading system making it next to impossible to significantly change your salary range, it's become a really serious problem for us. Quite a few people I know who have serious experience and specialist skills are now just coasting along as there's no incentive to do otherwise.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,073
    MISTY said:

    murali_s said:

    Sunak is obviously the sane choice. He’s boring but slightly less boring than SKS. Truss is just a crazy fruitcake…

    So as a non-conservative supporter, you would prefer we chose Truss to make your victory bigger?

    No. Sunak is far and away the candidate labour would like to face.
    "Whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad". Opting for the ERG candidate will leave the Tory Party intellectually and electorally dead. So go ahead, you do your thing. However I think the national tolerance for more batshit anti Europeanism is at an all time low.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,963
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Oh fuxk off.

    People have a right to campaign on whatever they damn please. Nobody has a right to put campaigners in jail, what law has been broken?

    PS my children are young, but if my youngest (6) were to say she is trans or gay when she grows up I wouldn't be that surprised. I will love and support her however she grows up.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,689
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    you gonna be hissing at transpeople on buses now, or do you still save that for women wearing hijabs?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Oh fuxk off.

    People have a right to campaign on whatever they damn please. Nobody has a right to put campaigners in jail, what law has been broken?

    PS my children are young, but if my youngest (6) were to say she is trans or gay when she grows up I wouldn't be that surprised. I will love and support her however she grows up.
    Great misery is being caused by the extreme trans lobby. Worldwide

    Sling em in the Scrubs
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305

    So when Liz “no detail” Truss says she’s going to repeal all “remaining EU laws” what does she actually mean?

    What does it matter? As long as she says the words the selectorate want to hear then she will win.

    If Johnsonism taught anything as a political philosophy, it is "Lie today to get to tomorrow. And keep doing it"
    It matters because I’ve got to suffer through it.
    I have got to suffer through it too, but the evidence to date is that they do not give a Tinker's d*mn about people like us. It is a naked power grab married to a grasping selectorate. The only good thing about it is that the graspers are slowly marching into care homes and coffins and with a bit of luck the Tory Party will implode electorally. Then perhaps the rest of us can start clearing up the mess they made.
    I think you should know that people have been saying that ever since 1846. And so far it has never happened, or at best, happened fleetingly.

    A friend of mine confidently predicts the same thing, but he was a bit stumped when I pointed out people become more conservative and less inclined to change their views as they age - like Corbyn (he didn’t like that parallel, I might add)!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,751
    F1: no tip, but a short ramble about things so far this weekend:
    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2022/07/france-pre-qualifying-2022.html
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Oh fuxk off.

    People have a right to campaign on whatever they damn please. Nobody has a right to put campaigners in jail, what law has been broken?

    PS my children are young, but if my youngest (6) were to say she is trans or gay when she grows up I wouldn't be that surprised. I will love and support her however she grows up.
    Great misery is being caused by the extreme trans lobby. Worldwide

    Sling em in the Scrubs
    What law have they broken?

    Hurting your feelings is not against the law.

    People like you justify Stonewall.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,066
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle

    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie

    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.

    The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.

    That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to error. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.

    You can kick it off if you want.

    We are all👂👂👂
    Since I don't think it was an error, why would you want me to lie?
    Oh do stop it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Oh fuxk off.

    People have a right to campaign on whatever they damn please. Nobody has a right to put campaigners in jail, what law has been broken?

    PS my children are young, but if my youngest (6) were to say she is trans or gay when she grows up I wouldn't be that surprised. I will love and support her however she grows up.
    Great misery is being caused by the extreme trans lobby. Worldwide

    Sling em in the Scrubs
    What law have they broken?

    Hurting your feelings is not against the law.

    People like you justify Stonewall.
    I generously said they should be put on trial first, and only jailed if convicted

    Low IQ Woke Fascists like you make me want to forget all that legal crap, and just incarcerate them

    However I am a better man than that, unlike you, and instead I shall rise and have my morning Java
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Oh fuxk off.

    People have a right to campaign on whatever they damn please. Nobody has a right to put campaigners in jail, what law has been broken?

    PS my children are young, but if my youngest (6) were to say she is trans or gay when she grows up I wouldn't be that surprised. I will love and support her however she grows up.
    That isn't the question, is it? The issue is what you would have done if a nursery person had diagnosed her as trans 4 years ago, not "when she grows up."

    If either of my sons rocks up in a dress or a same sex relationship, I will cut the little monster out of my life and out of my will without a second thought.

    Either that is true, or it is so obviously and outrageously false that it makes your PS look a bit unnecessary.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,552
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Definite ramping up of the rhetoric by Sunak - calling Truss "immoral" for planning immediate tax cuts. https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1550775054593654784

    Sunak is immoral for raising taxes on workers while cutting taxes on triple lock retirees.

    Truss isn't AFAIK proposing cutting tax rates below what they were under those notorious ERG extremists George Osborne or Philip Hammond.

    PS amongst the first thing that George Osborne did when he became Chancellor was to reject and reverse the rise in the National Insurance "jobs tax" that Labour had put in place.

    If it's good enough for Osborne, when there was "no money left" then why not Truss?
    Because there is far, far less money left now than they was even then given how much is being spent on things like social care...
    And the way to get more money isn't to throttle workers and corporations with an ever higher tax ratchet.
    Isn't it.

    The way to raise more money is to increase the average productivity per worker and encouraging companies to do that makes perfect sense.

    2 ways of doing that are to have high employment costs for companies (so encourage them to ensure time isn't wasted) and incentives to invest.
    Which Sunak did with his Corporation tax rises on larger companies (rates stay at 19% under £50 000 profit, with a taper to 25% at £250 000), while introducing super deductions of up to 130% for capital investment.

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/super-deduction

    This means that companies are incentivised to invest in capital equipment both by allowances and by reinvesting in other aspects of productivity, such as R and D, recruitment, staff training etc.

    Like all HMRC stuff it seems a bit over complex, but it does redirect capital to drive productivity, over paying tax and dividends.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Oh fuxk off.

    People have a right to campaign on whatever they damn please. Nobody has a right to put campaigners in jail, what law has been broken?

    PS my children are young, but if my youngest (6) were to say she is trans or gay when she grows up I wouldn't be that surprised. I will love and support her however she grows up.
    Great misery is being caused by the extreme trans lobby. Worldwide

    Sling em in the Scrubs
    What law have they broken?

    Hurting your feelings is not against the law.

    People like you justify Stonewall.
    Incitement to child abuse is frowned on by the criminal law.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,066

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle

    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie

    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.

    The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.

    That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.

    You can kick it off if you want.

    We are all👂👂👂
    Not going to happen though, is it?

    Human nature is that it's hard to admit error. And for politicians and other opinionmongers, admitting a mistake on the big question of their generation would be terminal.

    So we all wait until a decent interval has passed, and the population has had sufficient churn.

    Would it help if Gen X historians promised to write this up as "reasonable but failed punt" rather than "stupid power grab"?
    Yes OK. 2 to tango. And of course you're right about letting time work its slow sure magic.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Oh fuxk off.

    People have a right to campaign on whatever they damn please. Nobody has a right to put campaigners in jail, what law has been broken?

    PS my children are young, but if my youngest (6) were to say she is trans or gay when she grows up I wouldn't be that surprised. I will love and support her however she grows up.
    That isn't the question, is it? The issue is what you would have done if a nursery person had diagnosed her as trans 4 years ago, not "when she grows up."

    If either of my sons rocks up in a dress or a same sex relationship, I will cut the little monster out of my life and out of my will without a second thought.

    Either that is true, or it is so obviously and outrageously false that it makes your PS look a bit unnecessary.
    Sadly it's not that obvious in either direction. Many people behave like that sadly.

    The possibility that my daughter might or might not be trans or gay has been something I've considered since she was 2. She is very different to her sister on traditional sexual issues.

    If a nursery teacher had said something to me when she was 2 I would have thanked them for their feedback and said that I would support her however she developed.

    If she came to me at 2, or now, and said she was a boy I would react the same as if she said she was a butterfly, I would play along and see what happens next. I wouldn't tell her she's wrong.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994
    edited July 2022
    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,066
    MISTY said:

    murali_s said:

    Sunak is obviously the sane choice. He’s boring but slightly less boring than SKS. Truss is just a crazy fruitcake…

    So as a non-conservative supporter, you would prefer we chose Truss to make your victory bigger?

    No. Sunak is far and away the candidate labour would like to face.
    Do you want a true blood Labour person - me - to inform the blog who we actually want to face?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,911
    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    It does not appear to be widely reported that lower-paid NHS workers are effectively getting a 10% pay rise, unless I have missed it. Good news for them.

    And starting teachers 9.8%.
    I suspect it isn't being widely publicised because this is what a wage/price spiral looks like.
    It also brings them in many cases uncomfortably close in salary to their more experienced colleagues, who are getting half that - if anything at all, which given the government are still not providing the money does not seem certain. Not necessarily something the government want to emphasise.
    The practice of schools deliberately replacing experienced teachers with starters in order to balance their books will also take something of a hit.
    They're still going to have to do it, as smart teachers like @ydoethur get out of the profession, but there will be much less financial upside now.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,598

    Hmm. Somewhat tempted by the Truss percentages, but I'm all green and have fiddled with this market quite a lot so I think I'll just leave it and wait for money to arrive.

    I'm only going back in on this market if Sunak drifts above 4.

    I'm smugly all green and basically happy with my position.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,552
    edited July 2022
    ydoethur said:

    So when Liz “no detail” Truss says she’s going to repeal all “remaining EU laws” what does she actually mean?

    What does it matter? As long as she says the words the selectorate want to hear then she will win.

    If Johnsonism taught anything as a political philosophy, it is "Lie today to get to tomorrow. And keep doing it"
    It matters because I’ve got to suffer through it.
    I have got to suffer through it too, but the evidence to date is that they do not give a Tinker's d*mn about people like us. It is a naked power grab married to a grasping selectorate. The only good thing about it is that the graspers are slowly marching into care homes and coffins and with a bit of luck the Tory Party will implode electorally. Then perhaps the rest of us can start clearing up the mess they made.
    I think you should know that people have been saying that ever since 1846. And so far it has never happened, or at best, happened fleetingly.

    A friend of mine confidently predicts the same thing, but he was a bit stumped when I pointed out people become more conservative and less inclined to change their views as they age - like Corbyn (he didn’t like that parallel, I might add)!
    There was an interesting point made by a poster recently that people do not move right with age, but rather retain their ideas from their youth, while the world shifts around them.

    Hence the Conservative party has now embraced diversity culture and that immigrants do assimilate while maintaining their own cultures alongside, as demonstrated by this leader race.

    The selfishness and hedonism of the ageing boomers shows that too, in the desire for low taxation of them, and for others to pay the bill.

    We see it too with the alternative lifestyles of the Gen X as they age, becoming mainstream, so Glasto is now a bigger and more significant event than the Proms.

    What is thought to be Right Wing shifts over time, the puritanical, social authoriarianism, hard money/hard work ethos of Thatcher reflected her own provincial youth in the forties and fifties Midlands, but is history now.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,383
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Stonewall have all the momentum on this issue. They control the conversation and the terms on which it can be discussed. So saying something like "children should not be allowed to decide to change their sex and undergo surgery to achieve this", becomes a heretical and socially unacceptable opinion to express, potentially even career ending.

    Putin is very good at presenting this type of phenomena as the mad endpoint of liberal democracy. Where unlimited freedom turns in to terror and tyranny. It is part of how he builds up support for his war in Ukraine.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    You are becoming Plato Mk.2
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,487
    RH1992 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Because sensible gay rights have been achieved in full so they have no reason to continue to exist campaigning for that. It would be like still having a charity campaigning for women to have the vote.

    Stonewall's complete success in achieving full acceptance and equality for homosexuality has been a great achievement but left them without a purpose as an institution. Many former campaigners for homosexuality to be treated equally have left because the campaign has been won.

    Nature abhors a vacuum so they've adopted an extreme trans position to give themselves a purpose.
    Have to disagree there. Conversion therapy still exists in this country and there's still young LGB people who are disowned by their families and left with nothing just because of who they are. There's plenty to campaign for without having to pivot to trans issues.
    In a liberal society people are entitled to all sorts of views, the role of society and the state being to police the boundaries.

    The trend however is towards the idea that a liberal society has one set of views (labelled liberal) and is there to discourage or ban all the others.

    Just as we are allowed to drink too much, smoke too much, read the Daily Mail, watch Love Island, damage ourselves medically and other deeply damaging things so we are allowed to have opinions which are not shared by the BBC and Guardian.

    People speak of 'Conversion Therapy' as if its a sort of surgery on the NHS that should be stopped. It's mostly self help cod psychology and pretended forms of prayer. People, especially young ones, do stupid things. people, both secular and religious, have minority opinions.

    Families reject members for a multiplicity of reasons. Stuff happens. I wish it didn't, but it is going to continue.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    It does not appear to be widely reported that lower-paid NHS workers are effectively getting a 10% pay rise, unless I have missed it. Good news for them.

    And starting teachers 9.8%.
    I suspect it isn't being widely publicised because this is what a wage/price spiral looks like.
    It also brings them in many cases uncomfortably close in salary to their more experienced colleagues, who are getting half that - if anything at all, which given the government are still not providing the money does not seem certain. Not necessarily something the government want to emphasise.
    The practice of schools deliberately replacing experienced teachers with starters in order to balance their books will also take something of a hit.
    They're still going to have to do it, as smart teachers like @ydoethur get out of the profession, but there will be much less financial upside now.

    There is also a small problem that with the trashing of teacher training, two years from now it’s going to be much harder to find new teachers anyway.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,496
    Cicero said:

    MISTY said:

    murali_s said:

    Sunak is obviously the sane choice. He’s boring but slightly less boring than SKS. Truss is just a crazy fruitcake…

    So as a non-conservative supporter, you would prefer we chose Truss to make your victory bigger?

    No. Sunak is far and away the candidate labour would like to face.
    "Whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad". Opting for the ERG candidate will leave the Tory Party intellectually and electorally dead. So go ahead, you do your thing. However I think the national tolerance for more batshit anti Europeanism is at an all time low.
    No doubt the supply of batshit conspiracy theories will continue unabated if Liz Truss wins, but that's not a reason to vote against her.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,911
    .
    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle


    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie

    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    "If a wand could be waved" is a qualification which renders your claim vacuous.

    I would, for instance, cut UK debt to 10% of GDP during this Parliament, if a wand could be waved. It can't.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994

    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    You are becoming Plato Mk.2
    You, unfortunately, are still @Beibheirli_C Mark 1
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    I think the tipping point was the outrageous falsification of evidence over AGW over the last 20 years, which damaged both the AGW case and science in general.

    Same thing also with the trans thing, you cannot get funding to study people who have transed and regretted it.

    On antidepressants, good piece on what a straw man the "serotonin hypothesis" is:

    https://laulpogan.substack.com/p/begging-the-serotonin-hypothesis

    In brief, nobody ever thought it was "not enough serotonin," there's other neurotransmitters in the mix and nobody claims to understand the interactions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305

    Cicero said:

    MISTY said:

    murali_s said:

    Sunak is obviously the sane choice. He’s boring but slightly less boring than SKS. Truss is just a crazy fruitcake…

    So as a non-conservative supporter, you would prefer we chose Truss to make your victory bigger?

    No. Sunak is far and away the candidate labour would like to face.
    "Whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad". Opting for the ERG candidate will leave the Tory Party intellectually and electorally dead. So go ahead, you do your thing. However I think the national tolerance for more batshit anti Europeanism is at an all time low.
    No doubt the supply of batshit conspiracy theories will continue unabated if Liz Truss wins, but that's not a reason to vote against her.
    Indeed. The reason to vote against her is she’s a fluent liar who clearly doesn’t have a clue what she’s doing, and the country’s suffered enough from that approach.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,264
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    It does not appear to be widely reported that lower-paid NHS workers are effectively getting a 10% pay rise, unless I have missed it. Good news for them.

    And starting teachers 9.8%.
    I suspect it isn't being widely publicised because this is what a wage/price spiral looks like.
    It also brings them in many cases uncomfortably close in salary to their more experienced colleagues, who are getting half that - if anything at all, which given the government are still not providing the money does not seem certain. Not necessarily something the government want to emphasise.
    The practice of schools deliberately replacing experienced teachers with starters in order to balance their books will also take something of a hit.
    They're still going to have to do it, as smart teachers like @ydoethur get out of the profession, but there will be much less financial upside now.

    There is also a small problem that with the trashing of teacher training, two years from now it’s going to be much harder to find new teachers anyway.

    Which is fine because when teachers represent 75% of a schools budget you can't pay then 5-10% more when the overall budget is going up 1.9%. Something will have to give...
  • darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Stonewall have all the momentum on this issue. They control the conversation and the terms on which it can be discussed. So saying something like "children should not be allowed to decide to change their sex and undergo surgery to achieve this", becomes a heretical and socially unacceptable opinion to express, potentially even career ending.

    Putin is very good at presenting this type of phenomena as the mad endpoint of liberal democracy. Where unlimited freedom turns in to terror and tyranny. It is part of how he builds up support for his war in Ukraine.
    Children should be offered whatever support they need from loving parents with their best interests at heart.

    If a child thinks they are trans consistently from 2 to 10 then should they be compelled to go through puberty before they can take any action on that? I don't think so.

    There are zealots on either extreme that take things too far, but that's how debates happen and the extremists feed off each other.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,475
    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    Most of the problems are with American science in particular.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,911
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    It does not appear to be widely reported that lower-paid NHS workers are effectively getting a 10% pay rise, unless I have missed it. Good news for them.

    And starting teachers 9.8%.
    I suspect it isn't being widely publicised because this is what a wage/price spiral looks like.
    It also brings them in many cases uncomfortably close in salary to their more experienced colleagues, who are getting half that - if anything at all, which given the government are still not providing the money does not seem certain. Not necessarily something the government want to emphasise.
    The practice of schools deliberately replacing experienced teachers with starters in order to balance their books will also take something of a hit.
    They're still going to have to do it, as smart teachers like @ydoethur get out of the profession, but there will be much less financial upside now.

    There is also a small problem that with the trashing of teacher training, two years from now it’s going to be much harder to find new teachers anyway.

    Government will probably get away with it for a couple of years - if only by dint of blaming teachers for the ensuing problems. But it will get quite ugly fairly soon I think.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,066
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle

    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie

    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.

    The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.

    That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.

    You can kick it off if you want.

    We are all👂👂👂
    I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
    Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.

    But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.

    Take your time but please get on with it.

    👂👂👂
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,743
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Stonewall have all the momentum on this issue. They control the conversation and the terms on which it can be discussed. So saying something like "children should not be allowed to decide to change their sex and undergo surgery to achieve this", becomes a heretical and socially unacceptable opinion to express, potentially even career ending.

    Putin is very good at presenting this type of phenomena as the mad endpoint of liberal democracy. Where unlimited freedom turns in to terror and tyranny. It is part of how he builds up support for his war in Ukraine.
    And amplification of fringe issues is how Putin's troll farms divide the West.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,963
    edited July 2022
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle

    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie

    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.

    The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.

    That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.

    You can kick it off if you want.

    We are all👂👂👂
    I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
    Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.

    But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.

    Take your time but please get on with it.

    👂👂👂
    But Brexit isn't stupid.

    Now how about a clear statement from you that the Project Fear bollocks sprouted by Remainers at the time never came to pass and that we were right to vote Leave?

    👂👂👂
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    I think the tipping point was the outrageous falsification of evidence over AGW over the last 20 years, which damaged both the AGW case and science in general.

    Same thing also with the trans thing, you cannot get funding to study people who have transed and regretted it.

    On antidepressants, good piece on what a straw man the "serotonin hypothesis" is:

    https://laulpogan.substack.com/p/begging-the-serotonin-hypothesis

    In brief, nobody ever thought it was "not enough serotonin," there's other neurotransmitters in the mix and nobody claims to understand the interactions.
    What truly shocked me about Covid (vis a vis science) was the complete corruption of the major science journals. Lancet, Nature

    As a patriotic Brit I was proud that these fine journals led the way in scrupulously honest, scientific investigation, done without fear or favour

    What bollocks. All bought and sold for Chinese gold. Willing to parrot dangerous, putrid lies for a year

    And now I am more aware, I can see the corruption elsewhere. Sad
  • darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Stonewall have all the momentum on this issue. They control the conversation and the terms on which it can be discussed. So saying something like "children should not be allowed to decide to change their sex and undergo surgery to achieve this", becomes a heretical and socially unacceptable opinion to express, potentially even career ending.

    Putin is very good at presenting this type of phenomena as the mad endpoint of liberal democracy. Where unlimited freedom turns in to terror and tyranny. It is part of how he builds up support for his war in Ukraine.
    And amplification of fringe issues is how Putin's troll farms divide the West.
    But Putin is stupid as he doesn't realise that division is out greatest strength as a society and not a weakness.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle

    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie

    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.

    The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.

    That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.

    You can kick it off if you want.

    We are all👂👂👂
    I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
    Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.

    But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.

    Take your time but please get on with it.

    👂👂👂
    I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,598
    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    ·
    3h
    Big week ahead for US economy.
    Consumer confidence numbers on Tuesday.
    Federal Reserve decision on interest rates Wednesday.
    Q2 economic growth on Thursday.
    Latest numbers on consumer price inflation Friday.
    Deutsche Bank warns all this info will “leave you breathless.”
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle

    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie

    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.

    The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.

    That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.

    You can kick it off if you want.

    We are all👂👂👂
    I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
    Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.

    But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.

    Take your time but please get on with it.

    👂👂👂
    "a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid"

    You won't get such an acknowledgement from many Brexiteers because they don't think it's stupid. For others, they just claim that *their* version of Brexit should have been followed; but as it was not, it's gone wrong. Others think that it's not as good as it can be, but is still better than being in the EU.

    Was Brexit stupid? Perhaps, perhaps not. Has the way we've gone about Brexit stupid? IMV yes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,552
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    Most of the problems are with American science in particular.
    No, it is just there that most science is done. Scientific fraud happens everywhere. The remedy is thorough peer review and repetition of unusual findings by other teams, not abandoning of scientific method.

    There is a research industry aimed at career development by gaming the impact figures, getting grants etc, which isn't always transparent. Ultimately scientists are not all pure at heart and some will cheat or commit fraud in the interest of career progression and fame.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    Most of the problems are with American science in particular.
    Sadly not so: see the roles of the Lancet and Nature in more than one of these examples

    And The Wellcome Trust completely bought in to the lab leak cover-up
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,909
    Pretty sure this is a spoof but just a teeny quiver of doubt remains..
    Anyhow, a think tank called The Thought Cauldron is excellent, very Chris Morris.


  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    Most of the problems are with American science in particular.
    No, it is just there that most science is done. Scientific fraud happens everywhere. The remedy is thorough peer review and repetition of unusual findings by other teams, not abandoning of scientific method.

    There is a research industry aimed at career development by gaming the impact figures, getting grants etc, which isn't always transparent. Ultimately scientists are not all pure at heart and some will cheat or commit fraud in the interest of career progression and fame.
    No. It's just aliens.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,066

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle

    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie

    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.

    The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.

    That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.

    You can kick it off if you want.

    We are all👂👂👂
    I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
    Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.

    But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.

    Take your time but please get on with it.

    👂👂👂
    But Brexit isn't stupid.

    Now how about a clear statement from you that the Project Fear bollocks sprouted by Remainers at the time never came to pass and that we were right to vote Leave?

    👂👂👂
    Sorry Bart. I wasn't talking to you so under Fruity Leon's new Rule you shouldn't be butting in.

    (No prob in saying some of that PF stuff was OTT actually)
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,383
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So when Liz “no detail” Truss says she’s going to repeal all “remaining EU laws” what does she actually mean?

    What does it matter? As long as she says the words the selectorate want to hear then she will win.

    If Johnsonism taught anything as a political philosophy, it is "Lie today to get to tomorrow. And keep doing it"
    It matters because I’ve got to suffer through it.
    I have got to suffer through it too, but the evidence to date is that they do not give a Tinker's d*mn about people like us. It is a naked power grab married to a grasping selectorate. The only good thing about it is that the graspers are slowly marching into care homes and coffins and with a bit of luck the Tory Party will implode electorally. Then perhaps the rest of us can start clearing up the mess they made.
    I think you should know that people have been saying that ever since 1846. And so far it has never happened, or at best, happened fleetingly.

    A friend of mine confidently predicts the same thing, but he was a bit stumped when I pointed out people become more conservative and less inclined to change their views as they age - like Corbyn (he didn’t like that parallel, I might add)!
    There was an interesting point made by a poster recently that people do not move right with age, but rather retain their ideas from their youth, while the world shifts around them.

    Hence the Conservative party has now embraced diversity culture and that immigrants do assimilate while maintaining their own cultures alongside, as demonstrated by this leader race.

    The selfishness and hedonism of the ageing boomers shows that too, in the desire for low taxation of them, and for others to pay the bill.

    We see it too with the alternative lifestyles of the Gen X as they age, becoming mainstream, so Glasto is now a bigger and more significant event than the Proms.

    What is thought to be Right Wing shifts over time, the puritanical, social authoriarianism, hard money/hard work ethos of Thatcher reflected her own provincial youth in the forties and fifties Midlands, but is history now.
    There is a mass shift to voting Conservative at about age 41-44. It correllates almost exactly with the point in their lives when people start building up significant assets and wealth. I would guess this is the underlying driver of the Conservative vote. Part of the success of the last labour government (1997-2010) was that it established its credibility as a party that preserved personal wealth and assets.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited July 2022
    Unpopular said:

    So when Liz “no detail” Truss says she’s going to repeal all “remaining EU laws” what does she actually mean?

    What does it matter? As long as she says the words the selectorate want to hear then she will win.

    If Johnsonism taught anything as a political philosophy, it is "Lie today to get to tomorrow. And keep doing it"
    And keep doing it. Until you can't. I'm hoping Boris will be a cautionary tale, perhaps with a twist of Truss in the tail. Either way, I hope that they both provide an example of the consequences of short-term lying to cling onto power. Other politicians should take note when such lessons come along (or rather, when they foist such lessons on us).
    Perhaps we, as an electorate, need to learn to not vote in idiots that promise the Moon on a stick! The voters put those politicians in and it is, in part, due to our increasingly useless FPTP system.

    People are somewhat more nuanced than they were 20 or 50 years ago. Socialism or Conservatism is no longer the major defining issue. Brexit is an obvious example were Remain or Leave happens across the political spectrum as do Green issues.

    Our electoral system needs to become more nuanced as well and maybe we can get a better balance across the system
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Stonewall have all the momentum on this issue. They control the conversation and the terms on which it can be discussed. So saying something like "children should not be allowed to decide to change their sex and undergo surgery to achieve this", becomes a heretical and socially unacceptable opinion to express, potentially even career ending.

    Putin is very good at presenting this type of phenomena as the mad endpoint of liberal democracy. Where unlimited freedom turns in to terror and tyranny. It is part of how he builds up support for his war in Ukraine.
    And amplification of fringe issues is how Putin's troll farms divide the West.
    But Putin is stupid as he doesn't realise that division is out greatest strength as a society and not a weakness.
    You didn’t watch the last American election then
  • Pretty sure this is a spoof but just a teeny quiver of doubt remains..
    Anyhow, a think tank called The Thought Cauldron is excellent, very Chris Morris.


    Clearly a spoof.

    The last thing we should be doing is negotiating with Russia. Anyone who says that isn't serious.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,475
    edited July 2022
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So when Liz “no detail” Truss says she’s going to repeal all “remaining EU laws” what does she actually mean?

    What does it matter? As long as she says the words the selectorate want to hear then she will win.

    If Johnsonism taught anything as a political philosophy, it is "Lie today to get to tomorrow. And keep doing it"
    It matters because I’ve got to suffer through it.
    I have got to suffer through it too, but the evidence to date is that they do not give a Tinker's d*mn about people like us. It is a naked power grab married to a grasping selectorate. The only good thing about it is that the graspers are slowly marching into care homes and coffins and with a bit of luck the Tory Party will implode electorally. Then perhaps the rest of us can start clearing up the mess they made.
    I think you should know that people have been saying that ever since 1846. And so far it has never happened, or at best, happened fleetingly.

    A friend of mine confidently predicts the same thing, but he was a bit stumped when I pointed out people become more conservative and less inclined to change their views as they age - like Corbyn (he didn’t like that parallel, I might add)!
    There was an interesting point made by a poster recently that people do not move right with age, but rather retain their ideas from their youth, while the world shifts around them.

    Hence the Conservative party has now embraced diversity culture and that immigrants do assimilate while maintaining their own cultures alongside, as demonstrated by this leader race.

    The selfishness and hedonism of the ageing boomers shows that too, in the desire for low taxation of them, and for others to pay the bill.

    We see it too with the alternative lifestyles of the Gen X as they age, becoming mainstream, so Glasto is now a bigger and more significant event than the Proms.

    What is thought to be Right Wing shifts over time, the puritanical, social authoriarianism, hard money/hard work ethos of Thatcher reflected her own provincial youth in the forties and fifties Midlands, but is history now.
    I find it a bit arrogant how it's assumed that moving leftwards is good and moving to the right is bad. Obviously people will left-wing opinions will always believe this is true because it suits them.

    Interestingly, I've noticed that some left-wingers in this country seem to be more right-wing on crime and punishment than they were 20 or 30 years ago. You hear them calling for longer prison sentences for certain crimes, which is something that never used to happen a few years ago.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,909

    Pretty sure this is a spoof but just a teeny quiver of doubt remains..
    Anyhow, a think tank called The Thought Cauldron is excellent, very Chris Morris.


    Clearly a spoof.

    The last thing we should be doing is negotiating with Russia. Anyone who says that isn't serious.
    Bloody Ukes negotiating with Russia over grain exports. Madness!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,911
    .
    ydoethur said:

    So when Liz “no detail” Truss says she’s going to repeal all “remaining EU laws” what does she actually mean?

    What does it matter? As long as she says the words the selectorate want to hear then she will win.

    If Johnsonism taught anything as a political philosophy, it is "Lie today to get to tomorrow. And keep doing it"
    It matters because I’ve got to suffer through it.
    I have got to suffer through it too, but the evidence to date is that they do not give a Tinker's d*mn about people like us. It is a naked power grab married to a grasping selectorate. The only good thing about it is that the graspers are slowly marching into care homes and coffins and with a bit of luck the Tory Party will implode electorally. Then perhaps the rest of us can start clearing up the mess they made.
    I think you should know that people have been saying that ever since 1846. And so far it has never happened, or at best, happened fleetingly.

    A friend of mine confidently predicts the same thing, but he was a bit stumped when I pointed out people become more conservative and less inclined to change their views as they age - like Corbyn (he didn’t like that parallel, I might add)!
    There'll anyways be a conservative party, just not necessarily this one.
    Though they will probably get lucky and hand their mess over to Labour just in time to ensure their survival as one of the two main parties.
    Not inevitable, though. Just as it's not inconceivable the SDP might have usurped Labour if a few more MPs had jumped ship back in the 80s.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,066

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
    It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,963
    edited July 2022

    Pretty sure this is a spoof but just a teeny quiver of doubt remains..
    Anyhow, a think tank called The Thought Cauldron is excellent, very Chris Morris.


    Clearly a spoof.

    The last thing we should be doing is negotiating with Russia. Anyone who says that isn't serious.
    We didn't negotiate with Russia over that, Ukraine did.

    We should not be negotiating with Russia, Ukraine should be, only if they desire to do so. We should be supporting Ukraine not negotiating with their enemy behind their backs.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,496

    Pretty sure this is a spoof but just a teeny quiver of doubt remains..
    Anyhow, a think tank called The Thought Cauldron is excellent, very Chris Morris.


    Clearly a spoof.

    The last thing we should be doing is negotiating with Russia. Anyone who says that isn't serious.
    Bloody Ukes negotiating with Russia over grain exports. Madness!
    Perhaps yes.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62276392

    Explosions have rocked a key Ukrainian port just a day after Kyiv and Moscow reached a landmark deal to allow the resumption of grain exports.

    Two missiles hit the port city of Odesa in the early hours of Saturday morning, Ukraine's military said.

    Blaming Russia, Ukraine's air force chief said grain stores at the port were deliberately targeted.

    Under the terms of Friday's deal, Russia agreed not to target ports while grain shipments are in transit.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
    It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
    This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday


  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    You are becoming Plato Mk.2
    You, unfortunately, are still @Beibheirli_C Mark 1
    Thank you :+1:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,552
    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So when Liz “no detail” Truss says she’s going to repeal all “remaining EU laws” what does she actually mean?

    What does it matter? As long as she says the words the selectorate want to hear then she will win.

    If Johnsonism taught anything as a political philosophy, it is "Lie today to get to tomorrow. And keep doing it"
    It matters because I’ve got to suffer through it.
    I have got to suffer through it too, but the evidence to date is that they do not give a Tinker's d*mn about people like us. It is a naked power grab married to a grasping selectorate. The only good thing about it is that the graspers are slowly marching into care homes and coffins and with a bit of luck the Tory Party will implode electorally. Then perhaps the rest of us can start clearing up the mess they made.
    I think you should know that people have been saying that ever since 1846. And so far it has never happened, or at best, happened fleetingly.

    A friend of mine confidently predicts the same thing, but he was a bit stumped when I pointed out people become more conservative and less inclined to change their views as they age - like Corbyn (he didn’t like that parallel, I might add)!
    There was an interesting point made by a poster recently that people do not move right with age, but rather retain their ideas from their youth, while the world shifts around them.

    Hence the Conservative party has now embraced diversity culture and that immigrants do assimilate while maintaining their own cultures alongside, as demonstrated by this leader race.

    The selfishness and hedonism of the ageing boomers shows that too, in the desire for low taxation of them, and for others to pay the bill.

    We see it too with the alternative lifestyles of the Gen X as they age, becoming mainstream, so Glasto is now a bigger and more significant event than the Proms.

    What is thought to be Right Wing shifts over time, the puritanical, social authoriarianism, hard money/hard work ethos of Thatcher reflected her own provincial youth in the forties and fifties Midlands, but is history now.
    There is a mass shift to voting Conservative at about age 41-44. It correllates almost exactly with the point in their lives when people start building up significant assets and wealth. I would guess this is the underlying driver of the Conservative vote. Part of the success of the last labour government (1997-2010) was that it established its credibility as a party that preserved personal wealth and assets.
    That has some impact on economic views, much less so on social views.

    Big problems ahead for the Tories though as those 40 somethings are not as financially secure as they were a few decades back.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle

    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie

    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.

    The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.

    That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.

    You can kick it off if you want.

    We are all👂👂👂
    I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
    Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.

    But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.

    Take your time but please get on with it.

    👂👂👂
    But Brexit isn't stupid.

    Now how about a clear statement from you that the Project Fear bollocks sprouted by Remainers at the time never came to pass and that we were right to vote Leave?

    👂👂👂
    Not sure what the bollocks is your talking about, but as the months go by the actual implications and predictions are coming true.

    You made your bed, time to lie in it.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
    It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
    This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday


    You need to get a grip.
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
    It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
    This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday


    Nothing illegal in any of that.

    If a two year old girl says they're a boy, or vice versa, they ought to be supported not chastised.

    For many it might just be a phase. For some it won't be. Love and support is needed throughout.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,066
    edited July 2022
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle


    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie

    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    "If a wand could be waved" is a qualification which renders your claim vacuous.

    I would, for instance, cut UK debt to 10% of GDP during this Parliament, if a wand could be waved. It can't.
    Rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved is not much different to just thinking Brexit a mistake.

    Rather sly from the Big Controller, that was, imo.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994
    edited July 2022

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
    It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
    This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday


    You need to get a grip.
    You what? You read that tweet, by Stonewall, and your reaction is that I am the one that needs to get a grip?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
    It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
    This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday


    You need to get a grip.
    You what? You read that tweet, by Stonewall, and you reaction is that am the one that needs to get a grip?
    Yes - I find nothing in that tweet concerning at all. I don't think nurseries etc shouldn't be reinforcing gender roles or identity or anything like that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,552
    edited July 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    So when Liz “no detail” Truss says she’s going to repeal all “remaining EU laws” what does she actually mean?

    What does it matter? As long as she says the words the selectorate want to hear then she will win.

    If Johnsonism taught anything as a political philosophy, it is "Lie today to get to tomorrow. And keep doing it"
    It matters because I’ve got to suffer through it.
    I have got to suffer through it too, but the evidence to date is that they do not give a Tinker's d*mn about people like us. It is a naked power grab married to a grasping selectorate. The only good thing about it is that the graspers are slowly marching into care homes and coffins and with a bit of luck the Tory Party will implode electorally. Then perhaps the rest of us can start clearing up the mess they made.
    I think you should know that people have been saying that ever since 1846. And so far it has never happened, or at best, happened fleetingly.

    A friend of mine confidently predicts the same thing, but he was a bit stumped when I pointed out people become more conservative and less inclined to change their views as they age - like Corbyn (he didn’t like that parallel, I might add)!
    There was an interesting point made by a poster recently that people do not move right with age, but rather retain their ideas from their youth, while the world shifts around them.

    Hence the Conservative party has now embraced diversity culture and that immigrants do assimilate while maintaining their own cultures alongside, as demonstrated by this leader race.

    The selfishness and hedonism of the ageing boomers shows that too, in the desire for low taxation of them, and for others to pay the bill.

    We see it too with the alternative lifestyles of the Gen X as they age, becoming mainstream, so Glasto is now a bigger and more significant event than the Proms.

    What is thought to be Right Wing shifts over time, the puritanical, social authoriarianism, hard money/hard work ethos of Thatcher reflected her own provincial youth in the forties and fifties Midlands, but is history now.
    I find it a bit arrogant how it's assumed that moving leftwards is good and moving to the right is bad. Obviously people will left-wing opinions will always believe this is true because it suits them.

    Interestingly, I've noticed that some left-wingers in this country seem to be more right-wing on crime and punishment than they were 20 or 30 years ago. You hear them calling for longer prison sentences for certain crimes, which is something that never used to happen a few years ago.
    If you re-read what I wrote, you would see that I didn't say that. I said that people tend to keep the ideas and social views of when they were young, while the world shifts around them. I did not state that direction of shift.

    Indeed I think in many ways the young are quite right wing economically, and often unwilling to pay taxes to support the elderly etc, not keen on state delivery of services such as the BBC or even NHS etc.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,066
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The same time some other people turned into anti-trans idiots?
    Which never happened. Next
    Oh it has. If you cannot see that, then that might be because you're too heavily on the other side.

    I don't agree with Stonewall on this matter: even if kids feel at odds with their assigned gender at a young age, I'm unsure it does them much harm to learn about a 'binary understanding' of gender. But if there're pro-trans idiots, there are certainly very vociferous anti-trans people and voices as well.
    If anyone has become transphobic in recent years, it is because of the lunatic extremism of the trans lobby. One example is my friend, X, who has recently confessed to being appalled and horrified by this generation of trans activists

    She’s trans. Post-op
    You're saying bigots became bigoted because of the other side? That seems... odd. Do homophobes become homophobic because of the equality campaigns?

    I have seen anti-trans prejudice; I have seen a kind, gentle trans person get bullied in the workplace because of his change. Another one suffered quite a bit as well. So yes, many of us have experiences.

    And to make it clear: the so-called pro-trans people can go far too far. But so do those on the other side of the argument as well.

    Let people be what they want to be, as long as they do not hurt others in the process.
    If they’d only left the kids alone. But no, they came for the toddlers

    Stonewall needs to be investigated, and disbanded, its leadership put on trial, and if convicted, jailed
    Stonewall have all the momentum on this issue. They control the conversation and the terms on which it can be discussed. So saying something like "children should not be allowed to decide to change their sex and undergo surgery to achieve this", becomes a heretical and socially unacceptable opinion to express, potentially even career ending.

    Putin is very good at presenting this type of phenomena as the mad endpoint of liberal democracy. Where unlimited freedom turns in to terror and tyranny. It is part of how he builds up support for his war in Ukraine.
    All the momentum? Rather the opposite from what I see. Tide has turned and they're on the backfoot.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,264

    Pretty sure this is a spoof but just a teeny quiver of doubt remains..
    Anyhow, a think tank called The Thought Cauldron is excellent, very Chris Morris.


    Clearly a spoof.

    The last thing we should be doing is negotiating with Russia. Anyone who says that isn't serious.
    Bloody Ukes negotiating with Russia over grain exports. Madness!
    Perhaps yes.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62276392

    Explosions have rocked a key Ukrainian port just a day after Kyiv and Moscow reached a landmark deal to allow the resumption of grain exports.

    Two missiles hit the port city of Odesa in the early hours of Saturday morning, Ukraine's military said.

    Blaming Russia, Ukraine's air force chief said grain stores at the port were deliberately targeted.

    Under the terms of Friday's deal, Russia agreed not to target ports while grain shipments are in transit.
    I can see the flaw in that agreement that Russia is (ab)using. Grain in a store isn't moving so isn't in transit.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,598
    Sunak: "If we are to deliver on the promise of Brexit, then we're going to need someone who actually understands Brexit, believes in Brexit, voted for Brexit,"
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437

    Sunak: "If we are to deliver on the promise of Brexit, then we're going to need someone who actually understands Brexit, believes in Brexit, voted for Brexit,"

    Bloody remainers talking about Brexit again. They can't let it go, can they?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    edited July 2022
    Blake Lemoine: Google fires engineer who said AI tech has feelings

    He found Lamda showed self-awareness and could hold conversations about religion, emotions and fears.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-62275326

    No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,552

    Sunak: "If we are to deliver on the promise of Brexit, then we're going to need someone who actually understands Brexit, believes in Brexit, voted for Brexit,"

    So he is saying it hasn't been delivered?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,066

    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    You are becoming Plato Mk.2
    Which one? The wise old philosopher or the far right nutjob?

    (allegedly since both before my time)
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
    It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
    This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday


    You need to get a grip.
    You what? You read that tweet, by Stonewall, and your reaction is that I am the one that needs to get a grip?
    Definitely, yes.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited July 2022
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    You are becoming Plato Mk.2
    Which one? The wise old philosopher or the far right nutjob?

    (allegedly since both before my time)
    The Late Ms Plato of this parish. She was not always mad and did have some very sound shoe-related opinions.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,994

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
    It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
    This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday


    You need to get a grip.
    You what? You read that tweet, by Stonewall, and you reaction is that am the one that needs to get a grip?
    Yes - I find nothing in that tweet concerning at all. I don't think nurseries etc shouldn't be reinforcing gender roles or identity or anything like that.
    It derives from this article in Metro


    ‘After [my 4 year old girl] been attending for a few weeks, she said to me again she was a boy. But then she looked troubled and added that her teacher told her she’s a girl, that she’s always a girl.

    The experience of being told that had lingered, following her into her home life where she had always felt safe and accepted.

    I suspect her teachers don’t think she’s ‘old enough’ for gender nonconformity, despite published research confirming that children as young as two to three recognise their gender, and can identify their own transness.’


    This mad woman literally believes a tiny child can know their ‘transness’. Age 2. And thus live therefrom as a different gender. When my kids were two they thought they were fire engines or dragons or they lived as a mouse under the stairs

    And where is this ‘research’? No link. Oddly

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    Most of the problems are with American science in particular.
    Sadly not so: see the roles of the Lancet and Nature in more than one of these examples

    And The Wellcome Trust completely bought in to the lab leak cover-up
    How is the editor of the Lancet still in place....
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
    It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
    This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday


    You need to get a grip.
    You what? You read that tweet, by Stonewall, and you reaction is that am the one that needs to get a grip?
    Yes - I find nothing in that tweet concerning at all. I don't think nurseries etc shouldn't be reinforcing gender roles or identity or anything like that.
    It derives from this article in Metro


    ‘After [my 4 year old girl] been attending for a few weeks, she said to me again she was a boy. But then she looked troubled and added that her teacher told her she’s a girl, that she’s always a girl.

    The experience of being told that had lingered, following her into her home life where she had always felt safe and accepted.

    I suspect her teachers don’t think she’s ‘old enough’ for gender nonconformity, despite published research confirming that children as young as two to three recognise their gender, and can identify their own transness.’


    This mad woman literally believes a tiny child can know their ‘transness’. Age 2. And thus live therefrom as a different gender. When my kids were two they thought they were fire engines or dragons or they lived as a mouse under the stairs

    And where is this ‘research’? No link. Oddly

    Eh? So the kid is feeling confused about their gender but the nursery teacher has rubbished their feelings and now the kid is feeling even more confused?

    Who are you angry at again?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    eek said:

    Pretty sure this is a spoof but just a teeny quiver of doubt remains..
    Anyhow, a think tank called The Thought Cauldron is excellent, very Chris Morris.


    Clearly a spoof.

    The last thing we should be doing is negotiating with Russia. Anyone who says that isn't serious.
    Bloody Ukes negotiating with Russia over grain exports. Madness!
    Perhaps yes.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62276392

    Explosions have rocked a key Ukrainian port just a day after Kyiv and Moscow reached a landmark deal to allow the resumption of grain exports.

    Two missiles hit the port city of Odesa in the early hours of Saturday morning, Ukraine's military said.

    Blaming Russia, Ukraine's air force chief said grain stores at the port were deliberately targeted.

    Under the terms of Friday's deal, Russia agreed not to target ports while grain shipments are in transit.
    I can see the flaw in that agreement that Russia is (ab)using. Grain in a store isn't moving so isn't in transit.
    Yeah, and they've hit the port so it'll be harder to move grain in the future...

    As an aside, there are rumours that the Russians agreed to this in return for Lithuania allowing movement to Kaliningrad. Lithuania lifted their ban at pretty much the same time the deal was inked.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813

    Sunak: "If we are to deliver on the promise of Brexit, then we're going to need someone who actually understands Brexit, believes in Brexit, voted for Brexit,"

    Ohhhhhh Jerrrrrrrremy Corbyn ;-)
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 880
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Has something gone wrong with ‘Western’ science?

    “Two decades of Alzheimer's research may be based on deliberate fraud that has cost millions of lives”

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/1550796413738647552?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA

    Add in

    The anti depressant brouhaha
    Sackler and the opioids
    The whole cavalcade of shit that is Covid: from insanely dangerous virology to the dreadful lies about ‘lab leak’

    It’s not great

    Most of the problems are with American science in particular.
    No, it is just there that most science is done. Scientific fraud happens everywhere. The remedy is thorough peer review and repetition of unusual findings by other teams, not abandoning of scientific method.

    There is a research industry aimed at career development by gaming the impact figures, getting grants etc, which isn't always transparent. Ultimately scientists are not all pure at heart and some will cheat or commit fraud in the interest of career progression and fame.
    It's not just a research industry, tbf, but the entire edifice. In an environment of dwindling funds for science the competition is becoming even fiercer. This feeds down to individuals, and can create perverse incentives in the system. You add in a scientist's ego to the mix (I know I'm right, so if I tweak this result I can get the grant that will prove it) and it gets dangerous.

    All that said, the vast majority of scientists I know are genuinely passionate people in the job because they want to know the truth about how a thing works, and I think that helps keep most people honest; what's the point if you're going to just make it up? At the end of the day though, scientists are human and they need to eat, and they enjoy (usually not too bad) their salaries and their houses etc, and ultimately grants tend to pay these things (directly or indirectly). It's difficult then to rely on the good nature of individuals to safeguard against things like fraud.

    I definitely don't agree with Leon's thesis that there is something wrong at the heart of Western Science (as another pointed out, that heart is the scientific method and there's nothing really wrong there as it is a system that attempts to distill truth), but relying on people in an academic system that can incentive fraud to be honest is not an enviable position to be in.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,598
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    Why should I defend Stonewall or explain their policies? I have never had anything to do with them.

    I was asking you where you heard of this US lobby that is apparently loaded and no one has ever heard of, a sort of Illumanti of gender politics. The one that you cannot even be ar*ed to find out its name because, I suspect, it only exists in your more fanciful ravings.
    It's bollox. Stonewall is more sinned against than sinning imo. There's something of a smear campaign against them atm. Paying dividends too - as we see.
    This isn’t a ‘smear campaign’. This is what Stonewall tweeted yesterday


    You need to get a grip.
    You what? You read that tweet, by Stonewall, and you reaction is that am the one that needs to get a grip?
    Yes - I find nothing in that tweet concerning at all. I don't think nurseries etc shouldn't be reinforcing gender roles or identity or anything like that.
    It derives from this article in Metro


    ‘After [my 4 year old girl] been attending for a few weeks, she said to me again she was a boy. But then she looked troubled and added that her teacher told her she’s a girl, that she’s always a girl.

    The experience of being told that had lingered, following her into her home life where she had always felt safe and accepted.

    I suspect her teachers don’t think she’s ‘old enough’ for gender nonconformity, despite published research confirming that children as young as two to three recognise their gender, and can identify their own transness.’


    This mad woman literally believes a tiny child can know their ‘transness’. Age 2. And thus live therefrom as a different gender. When my kids were two they thought they were fire engines or dragons or they lived as a mouse under the stairs

    And where is this ‘research’? No link. Oddly

    If a child aged 2 wants to transition to a dragon I think the NHS should fund the treatment otherwise it is discriminatory.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Blake Lemoine: Google fires engineer who said AI tech has feelings

    He found Lamda showed self-awareness and could hold conversations about religion, emotions and fears.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-62275326

    No it didn't.....he THOUGHT he found that, rather he fell for a magic trick.

    Oh look, a point misser.

    If you can make people think you are self aware, you have cracked it. Thereafter discussion of whether it is real self awareness is gobbledegook. It is unknowable. It's an article of faith.

    Explaining things is not the same as explaining them away. I think helicopters fly by magic. You can probably explain it all in terms of ICEs and aerodynamics. Explaining it doesn't mean they stop flying.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,805
    Leon said:

    "I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/22/self-hating-remainers-blind-eus-flaws/

    It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.

    Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.

    You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.

    You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.

    No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
    He has done neither of those things.

    You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
    Maybe it's just that I can read ...

    Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws

    Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns

    Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.

    There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
    I think you're exaggerating.

    I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.

    I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
    Piffle


    PB-ers who would rejoin the EU

    @Roger
    @Beibheirli_C
    @Benpointer
    @RochdalePioneers
    @Scott_P
    @Nigel_Foremain
    @Foxy
    @Dura_Ace
    @Theuniondivvie


    And many more

    They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
    Ultimately it is up to Brexiters to decide what they want to do with Brexit. They are the ones in government. Truss says she was wrong to back Remain. Fine. What does she now want to do freed from the tentacles of Brussels? She ought to tell us.

    Also is it really the case that our trade deals don't need to be ratified by parliament. If the government are so proud of all these incredible deals they've been doing why don't they want the light to shine in?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus F Christ

    “Research suggests that children as young as 2 recognise their trans identity. Yet, many nurseries and schools teach a binary understanding of pre-assigned gender.

    LGBTQ-inclusive and affirming education is crucial for the wellbeing of all young people! 🌈”

    A tweet by some mad trans crank in a basement? No. Stonewall

    https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1550427949819695104?s=21&t=V-rOYL8uG-GMZOcXPk5TUA


    We have to drain this Woke poison from our society. And we can start by abolishing Stonewall and interrogating its activists

    It does seem to be a pretty horrible organisation.
    Absolutely toxic. The thread beneath that says they’ve been captured by some hugely rich American trans lobby, hence their extreme, perverse behavior, since about 2015

    Dunno if it’s true. But they need to be driven out of the public arena
    "... hugely rich American trans lobby ..."

    Would you care to name this mysterious yet influential organisation?

    In the USA, hugely rich lobbies usually mean bibles or bullets, not hormone treatments......
    No, because I can’t be arsed to do the research for a statement which I said ‘might not be true’ and was made by someone else

    But while you’re here, maybe you could explain how, why and when Stonewall made the, er, transition from sensible gay rights charity to extreme & crazy trans lobbyists?
    The when is easy. June 26th, 2015.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges

    The why is easy too - once gays got equal rights to marry, the trans stuff was the next thing on the list of Big Lobbying Charity.
This discussion has been closed.