"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
Oh, the contempt is mutual and sincere. Trust me
I don't have contempt for you. Not at all. Terrific poster. I just find your stuff on this topic to be infantile (for the reasons explained).
If you could try - try properly - to address the specific problem with your Brexit v Sindy views that I've taken the time and trouble to highlight all would be enlightened.
The reason I have contempt for you (and I am afraid I do) is that you are clearly intelligent, yet you seem unable to comprehend how or why others might have equally or more intelligent opinions that fundamentally differ from yours. That would be acceptable - it happens - but you also seem unable or unwilling to even try to understand these opposing views, because - I suspect - you are so complacently happy with your own
You bought a whole load of leftwing thought by the yard in your 20s, you see no reason to renew it or change it. Like someone who bought a ton of IKEA furniture as a student which they keep because it is "still perfectly serviceable", even though the Billy bookcase has collapsed into powder and STIG The Table has three legs left
It's the narrow mind thing again
But still, at least you are on here daily and thus exposed to alternative thoughts even if you can't grasp them. That, I guess, shows a certain willingness. So I will dial down my "contempt" to "mild contempt". You're welcome
Summarises him perfectly.
Oi. Any more of this and I'll rebirth "Reactionary Reductive".
It nailed you to a T and was only retired for reasons of blog harmony.
Liz Truss wants to set interest rates herself, God help us all
The system put in place by Gordon Brown hasn't worked. You can't depoliticise monetary policy.
Monetary policy isn't depoliticised. When George Osborne wanted loose monetary policy, he simply imposed tight fiscal policy. This caused inflation expectations to fall, triggering the Bank to cut rates and then launch QE. If Liz Truss were to increase the deficit by cutting taxes faster than spending, the Bank would respond with tighter monetary policy, probably in the form of higher interest rates.
I think there is definitely a case for re-thinking the Bank's mandate. The 2% inflation target seems increasingly hard to maintain, as strictly enforcing it would drive nominal GDP growth so low that it would cause real problems. A higher inflation target would make sense, but would be politically very tricky (it would look a lot like giving in to inflation). A nominal GDP target would allow inflation to go a bit higher in years of weak growth and lower in years of strong growth, which seems like a good idea and so will probably not happen.
But "taking back control" of interest rates would be an odd thing to do. If Truss simply wants rates to rise, she should pursue a higher deficit and let the Bank do its thing. More likely, she wants to both cut taxes and hold rates *lower* than the Bank would prefer, in order to generate a boom to see her through re-election some time next year.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
Oh, the contempt is mutual and sincere. Trust me
I don't have contempt for you. Not at all. Terrific poster. I just find your stuff on this topic to be infantile (for the reasons explained).
If you could try - try properly - to address the specific problem with your Brexit v Sindy views that I've taken the time and trouble to highlight all would be enlightened.
The reason I have contempt for you (and I am afraid I do) is that you are clearly intelligent, yet you seem unable to comprehend how or why others might have equally or more intelligent opinions that fundamentally differ from yours. That would be acceptable - it happens - but you also seem unable or unwilling to even try to understand these opposing views, because - I suspect - you are so complacently happy with your own
You bought a whole load of leftwing thought by the yard in your 20s, you see no reason to renew it or change it. Like someone who bought a ton of IKEA furniture as a student which they keep because it is "still perfectly serviceable", even though the Billy bookcase has collapsed into powder and STIG The Table has three legs left
It's the narrow mind thing again
But still, at least you are on here daily and thus exposed to alternative thoughts even if you can't grasp them. That, I guess, shows a certain willingness. So I will dial down my "contempt" to "mild contempt". You're welcome
Aw "British" Leon can't seem to defend his views so reaches for some amateur hour cod psych.
The SCourt is never going to agree to make a ruling, on some hypothetical piece of legislation from a devolved entity.
They need to pass the legislation first and then debate the legality of it. But the SG don’t want to do that, because their own Lord Advocate knows it’s completely illegal, and is required to say that before the SG legislation is passed in Scotland.
1) The Lord Advocate thinks she can ask for a judgement without legislation under the Scotland Act. See her "concluding observations"
As the final sentence states it would be a referendum with no legal force whatsoever, no more significant than the Catalan independence referendum Unionists there boycotted and the Spanish government ignored
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
As @Leon suggested upthread, that kind of independence is priceless, for some. It's a helluva drug.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel.
You make it sound like bourgeois class politics. Who needs solidarity with the oiks when you have solidarity with people like us abroad who are so much more civilised?
The SCourt is never going to agree to make a ruling, on some hypothetical piece of legislation from a devolved entity.
They need to pass the legislation first and then debate the legality of it. But the SG don’t want to do that, because their own Lord Advocate knows it’s completely illegal, and is required to say that before the SG legislation is passed in Scotland.
1) The Lord Advocate thinks she can ask for a judgement without legislation under the Scotland Act. See her "concluding observations"
As the final sentence states it would be a referendum with no legal force whatsoever, no more significant than the Catalan independence referendum Unionists there boycotted and the Spanish government ignored
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
There's certainly a case for full membership of the EU, with near frictionless trade and a potential political leadership role across a bloc of over 400 million people, but that comes at a price and there are plenty of other options the UK can pursue as an alternative instead, which also come with a price.
I don't think it's reasonable to say that some are prima facie right, and others wrong.
Sure. The right v wrong is a matter of opinion. Whenever I say something that's a matter of opinion is "right" or "wrong" just read the silent "imo". Gets tedious to type that every time.
The SCourt is never going to agree to make a ruling, on some hypothetical piece of legislation from a devolved entity.
They need to pass the legislation first and then debate the legality of it. But the SG don’t want to do that, because their own Lord Advocate knows it’s completely illegal, and is required to say that before the SG legislation is passed in Scotland.
1) The Lord Advocate thinks she can ask for a judgement without legislation under the Scotland Act. See her "concluding observations"
As the final sentence states it would be a referendum with no legal force whatsoever, no more significant than the Catalan independence referendum Unionists there boycotted and the Spanish government ignored
The same legal standing as 2016, and 2014.
Well, not really, as there would be no moral obligation on Westminster to pay any attention to the result.
But that's assuming the SC agree with Sturgeon's somewhat novel interpretation of the law allowing her to hold it at all, which it's clear the Lord Advocate doesn't.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I suspect @turbotubbs means we had no say in shaping the EU institutions, the Commission, Council, ECJ, etc. The undemocratic fundamentals. And that is true, but that is also largely our fault, we could have joined in the 1950s at the start and shaped it more to British liking, but we haughtily stood aside, and the French seized the opportunity to make it much more French, up to and including the lingo
(And good luck to them)
By the time we got on board it was formed in a way that is inimical to us, and our Common Law traditions, but the economic benefits meant we tolerated it, for quite a long time
To my mind, we either should have joined the EEC at the very beginning - or never joined at all
Both would have left us in a better place than we are now
Otherwise yes I agree that it is nonsense to say we didn't shape the EU in serious ways post-1975; we did, and the Single Market is one of them
No, more the lack of referenda in the U.K., so that when we did get a say, the public said no.
Fair enough, and Yes, absolutely right
The irony of Brexit is that one single referendum - if the europhiles had ever stopped being arrogant enough to grant one - at any point before 2016, would have sufficiently vented democratic resentment and eurosceptic anger, such that Brexit would never have happened
Instead they stoked the fires and accelerated the steamtrain, without a thought for the danger, until the boiler exploded and we crashed
One single tiny referendum, on Maastricht, say, or the Constitution, or Lisbon. But no. THEY KNEW BEST
I voted Leave because I didn't support the political vision for the European Union, and couldn't see that ever changing. It would have been fundamentally dishonest for me to vote to stay in. I knew another vote wouldn't be granted for a generation and so I approached my decision as my one and only chance.
That's a perfectly rational position to take; there are plenty of alternative models where the UK can undertake practical economic and political co-operation with our European neighbours but outwith an organisation we had no confidence in.
Had no confidence in? Is that really true? The reality is that prior to 2016 the majority of the UK population was pretty much indifferent to the EU (and couldn't give a damn about the Lisbon Treaty), evidenced by the poor turnout at EU elections. Leave largely won the 2016 referendum because a number of WWC Labour inclined voters wanted more spending on the NHS and other public services, and felt that Labour/Westminster were tin eared on things such as immigration (as shown by Gordon Brown's encounter with Gillian Duffy).
The SCourt is never going to agree to make a ruling, on some hypothetical piece of legislation from a devolved entity.
They need to pass the legislation first and then debate the legality of it. But the SG don’t want to do that, because their own Lord Advocate knows it’s completely illegal, and is required to say that before the SG legislation is passed in Scotland.
1) The Lord Advocate thinks she can ask for a judgement without legislation under the Scotland Act. See her "concluding observations"
As the final sentence states it would be a referendum with no legal force whatsoever, no more significant than the Catalan independence referendum Unionists there boycotted and the Spanish government ignored
The same legal standing as 2016, and 2014.
No legal standing whatsoever as the future of the Union is reserved to Westminster under the Scotland Act 1998.
So if the UK government refused to agree to it as it did in 2014 and hence also refused to respect the result as it did in 2014 it would be completely irrelevant
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel.
You make it sound like bourgeois class politics. Who needs solidarity with the oiks when you have solidarity with people like us abroad who are so much more civilised?
Wow, that is quite a leap. Actually, when I look at countries like Sweden or the Netherlands I see countries where the "oiks" seem to benefit from rather more solidarity than they do here, and I don't understand why we can't be like them instead of living in a country that is so unequal and has such an impoverished public realm. And you think that makes me an elitist? OK.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel.
You make it sound like bourgeois class politics. Who needs solidarity with the oiks when you have solidarity with people like us abroad who are so much more civilised?
Wow, that is quite a leap. Actually, when I look at countries like Sweden or the Netherlands I see countries where the "oiks" seem to benefit from rather more solidarity than they do here, and I don't understand why we can't be like them instead of living in a country that is so unequal and has such an impoverished public realm. And you think that makes me an elitist? OK.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
The vast majority were simply unaware of what EU membership entails. The Remain campaign didn’t spell it out for the simpletons and for that they bear some responsibility for the Brexit clusterf*ck.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
As @Leon suggested upthread, that kind of independence is priceless, for some. It's a helluva drug.
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
As @Leon suggested upthread, that kind of independence is priceless, for some. It's a helluva drug.
The catch in this case is that
... this is not how it was sold?
It was.
Leavers said we'd take back control (we have) and Remainers said that doing so would be at a massive price (Project Fear, didn't come true).
The SCourt is never going to agree to make a ruling, on some hypothetical piece of legislation from a devolved entity.
They need to pass the legislation first and then debate the legality of it. But the SG don’t want to do that, because their own Lord Advocate knows it’s completely illegal, and is required to say that before the SG legislation is passed in Scotland.
1) The Lord Advocate thinks she can ask for a judgement without legislation under the Scotland Act. See her "concluding observations"
As the final sentence states it would be a referendum with no legal force whatsoever, no more significant than the Catalan independence referendum Unionists there boycotted and the Spanish government ignored
The same legal standing as 2016, and 2014.
No legal standing whatsoever as the future of the Union is reserved to Westminster under the Scotland Act 1998.
So if the UK government refused to agree to it as it did in 2014 and hence also refused to respect the result as it did in 2014 it would be completely irrelevant
2014 and 2016 were both advisory, too - there was no legal obligation for the government to respect the result of either of those.
Aiui, this is the narrow legal point that the SG will argue: how can a referendum that has no legal bearing on the Union be unlawful under the Scotland Act?
A slight move to Rishi. Favourite Liz Truss boosted to 1/2 at Bet365; Rishi 9/4 at Boylesports.
At the moment, I think I'll be voting Rishi because - as uninspiring as he is, and naïve on foreign policy - my mortgage risks becoming unaffordable under Truss and that's a chance I can't take for my family.
Tax cuts have value if they save me money. Higher interests rates will cost me far more, and I'm not voting to be worse off.
Rishi should hammer this message. Truss means Minford and higher interest rates. She is dangerous as far as economics goes.
The problem is I guess that most of the Tory voting membership have paid off the mortgages and have savings.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
The vast majority were simply unaware of what EU membership entails. The Remain campaign didn’t spell it out for the simpletons and for that they bear some responsibility for the Brexit clusterf*ck.
Not only that - the Remaim campaign didn't point out any of the positives of remaining in the EU.
So you had the choice between everyone's personal unicorn / a better future or more of the same.
Unsurprisingly many people voted for their personal unicorn...
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel.
You make it sound like bourgeois class politics. Who needs solidarity with the oiks when you have solidarity with people like us abroad who are so much more civilised?
Wow, that is quite a leap. Actually, when I look at countries like Sweden or the Netherlands I see countries where the "oiks" seem to benefit from rather more solidarity than they do here, and I don't understand why we can't be like them instead of living in a country that is so unequal and has such an impoverished public realm. And you think that makes me an elitist? OK.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
Oh, the contempt is mutual and sincere. Trust me
I don't have contempt for you. Not at all. Terrific poster. I just find your stuff on this topic to be infantile (for the reasons explained).
If you could try - try properly - to address the specific problem with your Brexit v Sindy views that I've taken the time and trouble to highlight all would be enlightened.
The reason I have contempt for you (and I am afraid I do) is that you are clearly intelligent, yet you seem unable to comprehend how or why others might have equally or more intelligent opinions that fundamentally differ from yours. That would be acceptable - it happens - but you also seem unable or unwilling to even try to understand these opposing views, because - I suspect - you are so complacently happy with your own
You bought a whole load of leftwing thought by the yard in your 20s, you see no reason to renew it or change it. Like someone who bought a ton of IKEA furniture as a student which they keep because it is "still perfectly serviceable", even though the Billy bookcase has collapsed into powder and STIG The Table has three legs left
It's the narrow mind thing again
But still, at least you are on here daily and thus exposed to alternative thoughts even if you can't grasp them. That, I guess, shows a certain willingness. So I will dial down my "contempt" to "mild contempt". You're welcome
Summarises him perfectly.
Oi. Any more of this and I'll rebirth "Reactionary Reductive".
It nailed you to a T and was only retired for reasons of blog harmony.
You want it nail me to a T because that makes your dogmatic worldview so much easier.
The trouble is: deep-down you know that's not true, and it bothers you.
Leavers said we'd take back control (we have) and Remainers said that doing so would be at a massive price (Project Fear, didn't come true).
So what was mis-sold?
You feel it's going well, and (a) we now have effective control and are changing various things to our advantage (what?) and (b) the cost has turned out to be negligible?
On (a), I think Brexiteers like the IDEA of control, but they didn't give much thought to what they'd do with it.
The Remain campaign was dire . Especially on the issue of FOM which was allowed to be portrayed as something inflicted on the UK ignoring the reciprocity involved .
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel.
You make it sound like bourgeois class politics. Who needs solidarity with the oiks when you have solidarity with people like us abroad who are so much more civilised?
Wow, that is quite a leap. Actually, when I look at countries like Sweden or the Netherlands I see countries where the "oiks" seem to benefit from rather more solidarity than they do here, and I don't understand why we can't be like them instead of living in a country that is so unequal and has such an impoverished public realm. And you think that makes me an elitist? OK.
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Why are there no queues at Calais to get from France to the UK? Fewer people travelling? Easier checks? Surely our checks are also more compicated than before too?
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel.
You make it sound like bourgeois class politics. Who needs solidarity with the oiks when you have solidarity with people like us abroad who are so much more civilised?
Wow, that is quite a leap. Actually, when I look at countries like Sweden or the Netherlands I see countries where the "oiks" seem to benefit from rather more solidarity than they do here, and I don't understand why we can't be like them instead of living in a country that is so unequal and has such an impoverished public realm. And you think that makes me an elitist? OK.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I suspect @turbotubbs means we had no say in shaping the EU institutions, the Commission, Council, ECJ, etc. The undemocratic fundamentals. And that is true, but that is also largely our fault, we could have joined in the 1950s at the start and shaped it more to British liking, but we haughtily stood aside, and the French seized the opportunity to make it much more French, up to and including the lingo
(And good luck to them)
By the time we got on board it was formed in a way that is inimical to us, and our Common Law traditions, but the economic benefits meant we tolerated it, for quite a long time
To my mind, we either should have joined the EEC at the very beginning - or never joined at all
Both would have left us in a better place than we are now
Otherwise yes I agree that it is nonsense to say we didn't shape the EU in serious ways post-1975; we did, and the Single Market is one of them
No, more the lack of referenda in the U.K., so that when we did get a say, the public said no.
Fair enough, and Yes, absolutely right
The irony of Brexit is that one single referendum - if the europhiles had ever stopped being arrogant enough to grant one - at any point before 2016, would have sufficiently vented democratic resentment and eurosceptic anger, such that Brexit would never have happened
Instead they stoked the fires and accelerated the steamtrain, without a thought for the danger, until the boiler exploded and we crashed
One single tiny referendum, on Maastricht, say, or the Constitution, or Lisbon. But no. THEY KNEW BEST
I voted Leave because I didn't support the political vision for the European Union, and couldn't see that ever changing. It would have been fundamentally dishonest for me to vote to stay in. I knew another vote wouldn't be granted for a generation and so I approached my decision as my one and only chance.
That's a perfectly rational position to take; there are plenty of alternative models where the UK can undertake practical economic and political co-operation with our European neighbours but outwith an organisation we had no confidence in.
Had no confidence in? Is that really true? The reality is that prior to 2016 the majority of the UK population was pretty much indifferent to the EU (and couldn't give a damn about the Lisbon Treaty), evidenced by the poor turnout at EU elections. Leave largely won the 2016 referendum because a number of WWC Labour inclined voters wanted more spending on the NHS and other public services, and felt that Labour/Westminster were tin eared on things such as immigration (as shown by Gordon Brown's encounter with Gillian Duffy).
Yes, it is true.
Why do you assume that because I disagree with you I must be insincere?
There was a consistent 30-40% of the electorate demanding a vote for years, and even larger majorities (routinely at 60%+) favouring a looser relationship with the EU.
Don't cling to comfortable myths that make you feel better about your own prejudices.
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
I was musing on whether having 'secure, predictable, regular hours' automatically equals 'happy days.'
I mean, I had that in education and it definitely wasn't 'happy days' and isn't for those of my friends still in it. Largely because the drunken retards with severe psychological disorders who call themselves the DfE (aka 'our bosses') made our lives utterly impossible with instructions that would have embarrassed Hitler in the bunker.
Being my own boss will be extremely hard work and much less secure but it will definitely come with compensations. For a start, I can tell the DfE and OFSTED to go fuck their useless selves. For another, I can set my own hours of work. For a third, I can take holidays outside the times when everyone else does.
I mean, I don't know all the circumstances, but I had sympathy with this other person.
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Sir John Major has issued a powerful warning to Britain’s natural allies across Europe that they risk forcing the UK out of the EU unless they agree to a series of reforms including restrictions on the free movement of people.
Major challenged Merkel and other EU leaders who have said that they cannot countenance any change to the free movement of people on the grounds that it is one of the four freedoms enshrined in the EEC’s founding Treaty of Rome in 1957, those being the free movement of people, capital, goods and services.
The former prime minister said EU leaders were in no position to offer lectures on the four freedoms because the other three have never been properly implemented.
He said: “I hear it said by eminent Europeans that freedom of movement is sacrosanct. It is one of the four freedoms set out in the founding treaty. The argument is that if we tamper with freedom of movement, the other freedoms will fall.
“I understand that view but it has a flaw. Twenty-five years after the Single European Act, the other founding freedoms are not fully honoured by the EU. Not one of them. If freedom of movement is immutable, when will member states complete the single market? When will they end closed shops and protectionism, and open their markets to British services – especially our professional services? When will they fully integrate capital markets? Or the energy market? Or digital? Need I go on? If these had been implemented in full, then Britain’s case on free movement would be weakened. But they are not.”
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
How were we not democratic? After all we were able to leave which was democratic wasn't it? Please explain how France, Germany, Netherlands etc are less democratic than us?.
Because we were governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. The ONLY democratic thing we could do to remedy that was vote to Leave. Which we did. I’m glad you approve
Tho of course many Remainers tried to thwart that democratic vote and get it reversed, just like Trumpites on January 6
That is plain wrong. We weren't governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. They were an appointed executive by democratically elected governments and approved by a democratically elected parliament. This is similar to the executive for instance in the USA. It is also something that might be better here where instead of MPs with no experience whatsoever running departments a Government appoints experts of their political persuasion to run departments instead.
Whatever your statement is wrong because anyone in the executive could be removed by elected politicians.
PS in the states it is actually illegal for an elected politician to hold an executive office.
Christ, I'm not having this argument for the fucking zillionth time with a know nothing Remoaner. The EU was so undemocratic it simply ignored referendums, or overruled them. It's funny the only time anyone has tried to overrule a referendum in the UK is when it was about the EU. Almost like the EU's essentially undemocratic principles were beginning to poison our own system....
We're out. Thank fuck. Rejoice
Genuine question. If the EU was as undemocratic as you believe how do you account for the fact that only the English and the Welsh have ever voted to leave it? Are the other 27 countries too stupid to see it?
Are British leavers somehow acutely sensitive to issues of democracy because I would argue that what we have seen from the leavers government since 2019 is the exact polar oppopsite.
Aside of the fact the England and Wales didn’t vote, the U.K. did, it might have something to do with never being allowed a say in any of the development of the EU, unlike most other countries. Deny people a say long enough and it really starts to rankle.
I am so fed up with Brexit supporters running this country down instead of taking pride in its leading role in shaping the EU. 'UK had no say in the development of the EU?' What rubbish! The single market was hugely influenced by the Thatcher government, as well as the expansion to bring in Eastern European countries. But it suits the Brexit narrative to run down the UK's influence as if this country were some timid lion, cowed into submission by scheming continentals.
I suspect @turbotubbs means we had no say in shaping the EU institutions, the Commission, Council, ECJ, etc. The undemocratic fundamentals. And that is true, but that is also largely our fault, we could have joined in the 1950s at the start and shaped it more to British liking, but we haughtily stood aside, and the French seized the opportunity to make it much more French, up to and including the lingo
(And good luck to them)
By the time we got on board it was formed in a way that is inimical to us, and our Common Law traditions, but the economic benefits meant we tolerated it, for quite a long time
To my mind, we either should have joined the EEC at the very beginning - or never joined at all
Both would have left us in a better place than we are now
Otherwise yes I agree that it is nonsense to say we didn't shape the EU in serious ways post-1975; we did, and the Single Market is one of them
No, more the lack of referenda in the U.K., so that when we did get a say, the public said no.
Fair enough, and Yes, absolutely right
The irony of Brexit is that one single referendum - if the europhiles had ever stopped being arrogant enough to grant one - at any point before 2016, would have sufficiently vented democratic resentment and eurosceptic anger, such that Brexit would never have happened
Instead they stoked the fires and accelerated the steamtrain, without a thought for the danger, until the boiler exploded and we crashed
One single tiny referendum, on Maastricht, say, or the Constitution, or Lisbon. But no. THEY KNEW BEST
I voted Leave because I didn't support the political vision for the European Union, and couldn't see that ever changing. It would have been fundamentally dishonest for me to vote to stay in. I knew another vote wouldn't be granted for a generation and so I approached my decision as my one and only chance.
That's a perfectly rational position to take; there are plenty of alternative models where the UK can undertake practical economic and political co-operation with our European neighbours but outwith an organisation we had no confidence in.
Had no confidence in? Is that really true? The reality is that prior to 2016 the majority of the UK population was pretty much indifferent to the EU (and couldn't give a damn about the Lisbon Treaty), evidenced by the poor turnout at EU elections. Leave largely won the 2016 referendum because a number of WWC Labour inclined voters wanted more spending on the NHS and other public services, and felt that Labour/Westminster were tin eared on things such as immigration (as shown by Gordon Brown's encounter with Gillian Duffy).
Obvs 'why leave won' is going to be a matter of judgement, but
a) There was a cumulative public dislike of not having referendums when others did, and of those others being ignored, repeated or bypassed
b) FoM was perhaps a swing issue; 'being tin eared' on migration is true but outweighed by the fact that FoM had taken UK control away
c) Low turnout at EU elections may have been due to the fact being discerned that democratic processes made no difference and were attached to no levers. This was and is essentially a Potemkin parliament not worth bothering with
d) The UK population, being like me, north European barbarians, are exceedingly averse to theory of any description. That doesn't mean they can't spot a democratic deficit.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
I was musing on whether having 'secure, predictable, regular hours' automatically equals 'happy days.'
I mean, I had that in education and it definitely wasn't 'happy days' and isn't for those of my friends still in it. Largely because the drunken retards with severe psychological disorders who call themselves the DfE (aka 'our bosses') made our lives utterly impossible with instructions that would have embarrassed Hitler in the bunker.
Being my own boss will be extremely hard work and much less secure but it will definitely come with compensations. For a start, I can tell the DfE and OFSTED to go fuck their useless selves. For another, I can set my own hours of work. For a third, I can take holidays outside the times when everyone else does.
I mean, I don't know all the circumstances, but I had sympathy with this other person.
I also had sympathy with the businessman. To do you own thing is a powerful draw and motivator.
I don’t find it very good as analogy with leaving the EU, though. There was no “boss” telling the UK “what to do”. That’s reductive to the point of grossly misrepresentative.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep down" why, don't you?
It must cut for someone very patriotic to know you shunted your country onto the slow line.
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Sir John Major has issued a powerful warning to Britain’s natural allies across Europe that they risk forcing the UK out of the EU unless they agree to a series of reforms including restrictions on the free movement of people.
Major challenged Merkel and other EU leaders who have said that they cannot countenance any change to the free movement of people on the grounds that it is one of the four freedoms enshrined in the EEC’s founding Treaty of Rome in 1957, those being the free movement of people, capital, goods and services.
The former prime minister said EU leaders were in no position to offer lectures on the four freedoms because the other three have never been properly implemented.
He said: “I hear it said by eminent Europeans that freedom of movement is sacrosanct. It is one of the four freedoms set out in the founding treaty. The argument is that if we tamper with freedom of movement, the other freedoms will fall.
“I understand that view but it has a flaw. Twenty-five years after the Single European Act, the other founding freedoms are not fully honoured by the EU. Not one of them. If freedom of movement is immutable, when will member states complete the single market? When will they end closed shops and protectionism, and open their markets to British services – especially our professional services? When will they fully integrate capital markets? Or the energy market? Or digital? Need I go on? If these had been implemented in full, then Britain’s case on free movement would be weakened. But they are not.”
I can't remember the intricacies but even freedom of movement was never fully implemented. A country does have the right to send people back to their country of origin for all kinds of reasons, including criminality and I think even employment, if they chose.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel.
You make it sound like bourgeois class politics. Who needs solidarity with the oiks when you have solidarity with people like us abroad who are so much more civilised?
Wow, that is quite a leap. Actually, when I look at countries like Sweden or the Netherlands I see countries where the "oiks" seem to benefit from rather more solidarity than they do here, and I don't understand why we can't be like them instead of living in a country that is so unequal and has such an impoverished public realm. And you think that makes me an elitist? OK.
This is dim even for you. Do you understand what a median is?
Don't be mean.
Heh.
@HYUFD, see the GINI coefficient instead. It's still an imperfect measure, but it better supports your argument. Sweden is surprisingly unequal, even worse than the US. Australia, France and Italy are fairer than us.
On income GINI, the UK is far higher than the Nordic model countries.
The FBI found that equipment from the Chinese telecommunications company Huawei placed on cell towers in the midwest is capable of disrupting Department of Defense communications, including those from the force that oversees U.S. nuclear weapons, multiple sources told CNN.
Hopefully tourists and business travelers from the UK will be made aware of the new ETIAS system for entering the EU from January 2023.
The cost will be 7 euros and will last for 3 years or until the expiry of the passport if that’s less .
If you’re a dual national and hold an EU passport and coming from the UK you don’t need to apply for that as long as you use your EU passport whilst you travel .
Wow. 410 not out for Sam Northeast. Leics. made 584 first innings and now need 211 to avoid an innings defeat.
Highest score by an English cricket player for 127 years. Ninth highest score of all time. Second highest first-class score by a player not to play Test cricket (though I suppose that could still change).
Incredible.
He’s played one day international I think, but not been near the test side, which is a bit odd as we’ve tried a lot of players recently!
Nope, never played for England in any format. Don't think he's even played for the Lions.
Northeast played for England Lions in 2018 against the West Indies A.
Are you sure? He didn't tour the West Indies and I can't find his name in the scorecards of either match in the home series.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
Oh, the contempt is mutual and sincere. Trust me
I don't have contempt for you. Not at all. Terrific poster. I just find your stuff on this topic to be infantile (for the reasons explained).
If you could try - try properly - to address the specific problem with your Brexit v Sindy views that I've taken the time and trouble to highlight all would be enlightened.
The reason I have contempt for you (and I am afraid I do) is that you are clearly intelligent, yet you seem unable to comprehend how or why others might have equally or more intelligent opinions that fundamentally differ from yours. That would be acceptable - it happens - but you also seem unable or unwilling to even try to understand these opposing views, because - I suspect - you are so complacently happy with your own
You bought a whole load of leftwing thought by the yard in your 20s, you see no reason to renew it or change it. Like someone who bought a ton of IKEA furniture as a student which they keep because it is "still perfectly serviceable", even though the Billy bookcase has collapsed into powder and STIG The Table has three legs left
It's the narrow mind thing again
But still, at least you are on here daily and thus exposed to alternative thoughts even if you can't grasp them. That, I guess, shows a certain willingness. So I will dial down my "contempt" to "mild contempt". You're welcome
Summarises him perfectly.
Oi. Any more of this and I'll rebirth "Reactionary Reductive".
It nailed you to a T and was only retired for reasons of blog harmony.
You want it nail me to a T because that makes your dogmatic worldview so much easier.
The trouble is: deep-down you know that's not true, and it bothers you.
We've done this before istr. You're not that reductive - I only said that to be slack and unfair like you were being about me - but you are in many ways quite reactionary. About 7/10 on the Peter Hitchens is 11 scale. My sincere opinion, free of deliberate slackness and unfairness.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
As @Leon suggested upthread, that kind of independence is priceless, for some. It's a helluva drug.
The catch in this case is that
... this is not how it was sold?
It was.
Leavers said we'd take back control (we have) and Remainers said that doing so would be at a massive price (Project Fear, didn't come true).
So what was mis-sold?
But not take back control for tory politicians to fuck everything up. They missed out that last bit.
The FBI found that equipment from the Chinese telecommunications company Huawei placed on cell towers in the midwest is capable of disrupting Department of Defense communications, including those from the force that oversees U.S. nuclear weapons, multiple sources told CNN.
Why are there no queues at Calais to get from France to the UK? Fewer people travelling? Easier checks? Surely our checks are also more compicated than before too?
As a regular channel crosser I can say it’s down to space and infrastructure. They have loads more of both on the Calais side and aren’t hemmed in by cliffs.
That said, it’s the start of the school holidays so it stands to reason it will be much busier in the Dover-Calais direction than coming back to the UK.
I would have thought median wealth a better measure than mean wealth, but UK wealth measures are inflated by the very high value of housing.
Unless you are planning to retire outside the Uk where housing is cheaper, in many ways it could be seen as a greater cost of living.
I think @OnlyLivingBoy was making a point about inequality in the UK. While the median is better than the mean for getting a sense of how rich the average person is, it can still cover up extensive poverty.
This is why we calculate the poverty line as 60% (sometimes 50%) of the median income. The UK has an awful lot of people below this line.
As you say, wealth in the UK is inflated by housing. So median wealth is a particularly bad way of comparing the UK with Sweden if you're interested in how the "oiks" are doing.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
Streisand effect
The call is now out for every PB remainer to come and like that post. Then they can resume their day.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
What do you suggest for those of us who like whisky and don’t drink beer ?
Hopefully tourists and business travelers from the UK will be made aware of the new ETIAS system for entering the EU from January 2023.
The cost will be 7 euros and will last for 3 years or until the expiry of the passport if that’s less .
If you’re a dual national and hold an EU passport and coming from the UK you don’t need to apply for that as long as you use your EU passport whilst you travel .
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
The other way of looking at it, is that your friend took a chance on doing something… different.
In many ways the future of the country depends on some idiot who does stuff like that - that’s where the next wave comes from.
A couple of bicycle mechanics decide that they can do better at the whole trying to fly thing….
I’ve seen so many people bashed into a square hole - safe job, safe safe safe. Miserable as all hell inside. Let them out. Set them free….
Hopefully tourists and business travelers from the UK will be made aware of the new ETIAS system for entering the EU from January 2023.
The cost will be 7 euros and will last for 3 years or until the expiry of the passport if that’s less .
If you’re a dual national and hold an EU passport and coming from the UK you don’t need to apply for that as long as you use your EU passport whilst you travel .
Thanks. Interesting. But will it speed things up?
Physical stamps were supposed to be abolished at the same time, but the project is delayed.
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Sir John Major has issued a powerful warning to Britain’s natural allies across Europe that they risk forcing the UK out of the EU unless they agree to a series of reforms including restrictions on the free movement of people.
Major challenged Merkel and other EU leaders who have said that they cannot countenance any change to the free movement of people on the grounds that it is one of the four freedoms enshrined in the EEC’s founding Treaty of Rome in 1957, those being the free movement of people, capital, goods and services.
The former prime minister said EU leaders were in no position to offer lectures on the four freedoms because the other three have never been properly implemented.
He said: “I hear it said by eminent Europeans that freedom of movement is sacrosanct. It is one of the four freedoms set out in the founding treaty. The argument is that if we tamper with freedom of movement, the other freedoms will fall.
“I understand that view but it has a flaw. Twenty-five years after the Single European Act, the other founding freedoms are not fully honoured by the EU. Not one of them. If freedom of movement is immutable, when will member states complete the single market? When will they end closed shops and protectionism, and open their markets to British services – especially our professional services? When will they fully integrate capital markets? Or the energy market? Or digital? Need I go on? If these had been implemented in full, then Britain’s case on free movement would be weakened. But they are not.”
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
It tickles the erogenous zones of those who'd rather think their fellow countrymen and women were gullible, naive, stupid or misled rather than they had their own sensible reasons for voting as they did.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
As @Leon suggested upthread, that kind of independence is priceless, for some. It's a helluva drug.
The catch in this case is that
... this is not how it was sold?
It was.
Leavers said we'd take back control (we have) and Remainers said that doing so would be at a massive price (Project Fear, didn't come true).
So what was mis-sold?
But not take back control for tory politicians to fuck everything up. They missed out that last bit.
In fairness it is only the eurosceptic wing of the Tories that are screwing up. Lots of other Tories, Major, Cameron, Hague, Ken Clarke, Heseltine see the folly of it as much as we do. The Brexit zealots like Bone, Cash, Rees-Mogg, IDS, Francois were always a pretty odd bunch. It really should as no surprise that we are in the state we are in after they have been in the driving seat for 3 years.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
I see. So you'll never admit your mistake regardless of the evidence. Hats off for honesty but this is not the way society evolves for the better.
It was not a mistake. It was a moral and political choice. You apparently don't understand the difference
Was it a mistake for India to become independent of the UK? The lot of the average Indian is still pretty grim. Perhaps they would be better off governed from London? Or does that simply sound ridiculous?
It sounds ridiculous to me
We chose to leave, to plot our own course, and now we must sink or swim under our own steam. We might fail, we might prosper, I will never regret taking the calculated risk (and I have always acknowledged the risk)
Again here - you're seeing the UK leaving the EU as akin to a colony throwing off the yolk of imperial empire.
Just so ridiculously romanticized and pretentious. It's quite similar to those antilockdowners who used to big themselves up as freedom fighters for refusing to put a mask on when they went to Tesco.
You're not much younger than me but I find your views on Brexit to be quite infantile. I'm sorry, Leon, but I do.
Oh, the contempt is mutual and sincere. Trust me
I don't have contempt for you. Not at all. Terrific poster. I just find your stuff on this topic to be infantile (for the reasons explained).
If you could try - try properly - to address the specific problem with your Brexit v Sindy views that I've taken the time and trouble to highlight all would be enlightened.
The reason I have contempt for you (and I am afraid I do) is that you are clearly intelligent, yet you seem unable to comprehend how or why others might have equally or more intelligent opinions that fundamentally differ from yours. That would be acceptable - it happens - but you also seem unable or unwilling to even try to understand these opposing views, because - I suspect - you are so complacently happy with your own
You bought a whole load of leftwing thought by the yard in your 20s, you see no reason to renew it or change it. Like someone who bought a ton of IKEA furniture as a student which they keep because it is "still perfectly serviceable", even though the Billy bookcase has collapsed into powder and STIG The Table has three legs left
It's the narrow mind thing again
But still, at least you are on here daily and thus exposed to alternative thoughts even if you can't grasp them. That, I guess, shows a certain willingness. So I will dial down my "contempt" to "mild contempt". You're welcome
Summarises him perfectly.
Oi. Any more of this and I'll rebirth "Reactionary Reductive".
It nailed you to a T and was only retired for reasons of blog harmony.
You want it nail me to a T because that makes your dogmatic worldview so much easier.
The trouble is: deep-down you know that's not true, and it bothers you.
We've done this before istr. You're not that reductive - I only said that to be slack and unfair like you were being about me - but you are in many ways quite reactionary. About 7/10 on the Peter Hitchens is 11 scale. My sincere opinion, free of deliberate slackness and unfairness.
To be fair to you, I actually don't think you really believe that.
You just have your own prejudices and are constantly fighting to control them, just like many other people.
WRT to BoE Independence, it is worth noting that most countries have independent central banks with specific inflation mandates.
And there's plenty of evidence that many British Governments - prior to its independence - had chosen to cut interest rates in the run up to elections in order to garner votes, which resulted in the UK having one of the highest average inflation rates in the developed world.
The missed opportunity of Brexit will always be that small period where there was a consensus on EEA/EFTA, thanks a lot Theresa
Correct. I was always an EEAer, so I genuinely don't know if I count as a remainer. Prolly do in that I'd rather have stayed in than the current shitshow.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
Yep, because we're at the fag-end of a Conservative government, most of the regular Tory posters have left the site over the last 10 years and there's now a residual Remainer herd on here that bubble likes posts from its own.
It's the same effect in microcosm of the tragedy of @southamobserver who's been totally ensnared by Twitter and has now become a shadow of his former self.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
The missed opportunity of Brexit will always be that small period where there was a consensus on EEA/EFTA, thanks a lot Theresa
I don't want to comment on whether that consensus ever existed, and for now SKS appears to have removed it from his agenda.
But the possibility awaits for a leader of centrists everywhere to promote something which would be consistent with the Brexit vote (though not the rhetoric of course) and be the only practical next step.
This of course requires a UK politicians to say that past folly and hubris of both UK and EU had got us into the place where we were unable to stop FoM and protect UK interests at the same time.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
It is the result of living in constant confirmation bias.
All the signs at Waterloo Station must be incredibly unpopular and despised by all Londoners because that's what I think and the two people I asked agree with me.
When met with opposition it is denial that follows.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
It tickles the erogenous zones of those who'd rather think their fellow countrymen and women were gullible, naive, stupid or misled rather than they had their own sensible reasons for voting as they did.
Balls. Do you think the kind of wankers who approved of Clapping For Carers didn't buy the bus lie?
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Sir John Major has issued a powerful warning to Britain’s natural allies across Europe that they risk forcing the UK out of the EU unless they agree to a series of reforms including restrictions on the free movement of people.
Major challenged Merkel and other EU leaders who have said that they cannot countenance any change to the free movement of people on the grounds that it is one of the four freedoms enshrined in the EEC’s founding Treaty of Rome in 1957, those being the free movement of people, capital, goods and services.
The former prime minister said EU leaders were in no position to offer lectures on the four freedoms because the other three have never been properly implemented.
He said: “I hear it said by eminent Europeans that freedom of movement is sacrosanct. It is one of the four freedoms set out in the founding treaty. The argument is that if we tamper with freedom of movement, the other freedoms will fall.
“I understand that view but it has a flaw. Twenty-five years after the Single European Act, the other founding freedoms are not fully honoured by the EU. Not one of them. If freedom of movement is immutable, when will member states complete the single market? When will they end closed shops and protectionism, and open their markets to British services – especially our professional services? When will they fully integrate capital markets? Or the energy market? Or digital? Need I go on? If these had been implemented in full, then Britain’s case on free movement would be weakened. But they are not.”
And, Major was right.
Inevitably either Major was right then and wrong now, or wrong then and right now, and he and his fellow remainers are going to overlook this fact.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Err, I think I know mate because tedious twats like you tell me about a gazillion times on here each and every day.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
It tickles the erogenous zones of those who'd rather think their fellow countrymen and women were gullible, naive, stupid or misled rather than they had their own sensible reasons for voting as they did.
Balls. Do you think the kind of wankers who approved of Clapping For Carers didn't buy the bus lie?
Erm, run "the bus lie" past me again, given that Theresa May invested more per week in the NHS as "the Brexit bonus" than the number on the bus.....
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Sir John Major has issued a powerful warning to Britain’s natural allies across Europe that they risk forcing the UK out of the EU unless they agree to a series of reforms including restrictions on the free movement of people.
Major challenged Merkel and other EU leaders who have said that they cannot countenance any change to the free movement of people on the grounds that it is one of the four freedoms enshrined in the EEC’s founding Treaty of Rome in 1957, those being the free movement of people, capital, goods and services.
The former prime minister said EU leaders were in no position to offer lectures on the four freedoms because the other three have never been properly implemented.
He said: “I hear it said by eminent Europeans that freedom of movement is sacrosanct. It is one of the four freedoms set out in the founding treaty. The argument is that if we tamper with freedom of movement, the other freedoms will fall.
“I understand that view but it has a flaw. Twenty-five years after the Single European Act, the other founding freedoms are not fully honoured by the EU. Not one of them. If freedom of movement is immutable, when will member states complete the single market? When will they end closed shops and protectionism, and open their markets to British services – especially our professional services? When will they fully integrate capital markets? Or the energy market? Or digital? Need I go on? If these had been implemented in full, then Britain’s case on free movement would be weakened. But they are not.”
And, Major was right.
Inevitably either Major was right then and wrong now, or wrong then and right now, and he and his fellow remainers are going to overlook this fact.
You can believe Major was right but also still believe that he would never have advocated actually leaving. As I believe Thatcher would have agreed
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep down" why, don't you?
It must cut for someone very patriotic to know you shunted your country onto the slow line.
The same way a woman chooses to have a baby, knowing she will be off the career ladder, and her career is likely to suffer. She does it anyway. Because she wants a baby
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
It tickles the erogenous zones of those who'd rather think their fellow countrymen and women were gullible, naive, stupid or misled rather than they had their own sensible reasons for voting as they did.
Balls. Do you think the kind of wankers who approved of Clapping For Carers didn't buy the bus lie?
There was no bus lie.
We did send money to the EU we could use on the NHS instead.
Whether you want to use the net or gross figure doesn't change that fact. People use gross figures all the time, if a company advertises a salary quoting a gross figure then the fact PAYE applies doesn't mean the gross figure was a lie.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
It tickles the erogenous zones of those who'd rather think their fellow countrymen and women were gullible, naive, stupid or misled rather than they had their own sensible reasons for voting as they did.
Balls. Do you think the kind of wankers who approved of Clapping For Carers didn't buy the bus lie?
Erm, run "the bus lie" past me again, given that Theresa May invested more per week in the NHS as "the Brexit bonus" than the number on the bus.....
So if I send you a tenner and tell you it is part of the profits of my lead into gold conversion business, what is the tenner evidence of?
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
It tickles the erogenous zones of those who'd rather think their fellow countrymen and women were gullible, naive, stupid or misled rather than they had their own sensible reasons for voting as they did.
The list of those that liked that post is a great reference point for my contempt list.
No-one who has reasoned or measured views on it should have liked it, which is why I'm so disappointed in @Gardenwalker
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
The other way of looking at it, is that your friend took a chance on doing something… different.
In many ways the future of the country depends on some idiot who does stuff like that - that’s where the next wave comes from.
A couple of bicycle mechanics decide that they can do better at the whole trying to fly thing….
I’ve seen so many people bashed into a square hole - safe job, safe safe safe. Miserable as all hell inside. Let them out. Set them free….
I get that, I don’t disagree. Let them go, do what they want, stand or fall by their own choices.
But they are individuals taking decisions which affect only them. If Wilbur and Orville had smashed themselves into a bloody pulp, no-one else would have been killed.
And Brexiters will no doubt say that applies to the UK. We can make our own choices! Stand and fall by our own decisions!
But that isn’t how it was sold, was it? No downsides, no bloody pulp in the sand, only considerable upsides! Right-wing wreckers peddling lies that affect tens of millions of people.
Lies that persist in the shitshow of the current leadership contest. Pain-free fantasies as the post-Brexit bin fire really starts to hot up.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
As @Leon suggested upthread, that kind of independence is priceless, for some. It's a helluva drug.
The catch in this case is that
... this is not how it was sold?
It was.
Leavers said we'd take back control (we have) and Remainers said that doing so would be at a massive price (Project Fear, didn't come true).
So what was mis-sold?
But not take back control for tory politicians to fuck everything up. They missed out that last bit.
In fairness it is only the eurosceptic wing of the Tories that are screwing up. Lots of other Tories, Major, Cameron, Hague, Ken Clarke, Heseltine see the folly of it as much as we do. The Brexit zealots like Bone, Cash, Rees-Mogg, IDS, Francois were always a pretty odd bunch. It really should as no surprise that we are in the state we are in after they have been in the driving seat for 3 years.
I don't want this but in a way for Brexit to make a semblance of sense we now need to do big radical things we couldn't do as EU members - ie lurch hard right or left.
Comments
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It nailed you to a T and was only retired for reasons of blog harmony.
I think there is definitely a case for re-thinking the Bank's mandate. The 2% inflation target seems increasingly hard to maintain, as strictly enforcing it would drive nominal GDP growth so low that it would cause real problems. A higher inflation target would make sense, but would be politically very tricky (it would look a lot like giving in to inflation). A nominal GDP target would allow inflation to go a bit higher in years of weak growth and lower in years of strong growth, which seems like a good idea and so will probably not happen.
But "taking back control" of interest rates would be an odd thing to do. If Truss simply wants rates to rise, she should pursue a higher deficit and let the Bank do its thing. More likely, she wants to both cut taxes and hold rates *lower* than the Bank would prefer, in order to generate a boom to see her through re-election some time next year.
Time for a walk.
Smug superior face emoji.
Talking of yougov as we are, this Zahawi offshore stuff looks absolute dynamite
The catch in this case is that
@Leon is our Prince George of Denmark:
“We have tried him drunk and we have tried him sober, but there is nothing in him”.
But that's assuming the SC agree with Sturgeon's somewhat novel interpretation of the law allowing her to hold it at all, which it's clear the Lord Advocate doesn't.
So if the UK government refused to agree to it as it did in 2014 and hence also refused to respect the result as it did in 2014 it would be completely irrelevant
*until you get the munchies
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Great. Not
BBC Breaking News
@BBCBreaking
Monkeypox declared a global health emergency by the World Health Organization following a surge in cases
Leavers said we'd take back control (we have) and Remainers said that doing so would be at a massive price (Project Fear, didn't come true).
So what was mis-sold?
Aiui, this is the narrow legal point that the SG will argue: how can a referendum that has no legal bearing on the Union be unlawful under the Scotland Act?
I should add: I am betting on Truss.
The fact is there’s simply insufficient room at Dover to process that many people crossing .
New checks mean there’s simply no way you can do that . Even if you’re just adding on 45 seconds to a minute per car that adds up to chaos .
And come September it’s going to be even worse with even more checks .
So you had the choice between everyone's personal unicorn / a better future or more of the same.
Unsurprisingly many people voted for their personal unicorn...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/feb/19/eu-summit-all-night-negotiations-deal-cameron-live
The trouble is: deep-down you know that's not true, and it bothers you.
On (a), I think Brexiteers like the IDEA of control, but they didn't give much thought to what they'd do with it.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
Why do you assume that because I disagree with you I must be insincere?
You can see opinion polling on EU membership all the back to 2010, showing regular Leave leads: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#2010
There was a consistent 30-40% of the electorate demanding a vote for years, and even larger majorities (routinely at 60%+) favouring a looser relationship with the EU.
Don't cling to comfortable myths that make you feel better about your own prejudices.
Of course, those admissions remain private.
I mean, I had that in education and it definitely wasn't 'happy days' and isn't for those of my friends still in it. Largely because the drunken retards with severe psychological disorders who call themselves the DfE (aka 'our bosses') made our lives utterly impossible with instructions that would have embarrassed Hitler in the bunker.
Being my own boss will be extremely hard work and much less secure but it will definitely come with compensations. For a start, I can tell the DfE and OFSTED to go fuck their useless selves. For another, I can set my own hours of work. For a third, I can take holidays outside the times when everyone else does.
I mean, I don't know all the circumstances, but I had sympathy with this other person.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/13/john-major-warns-eu-risk-forcing-britain-to-leave
Sir John Major has issued a powerful warning to Britain’s natural allies across Europe that they risk forcing the UK out of the EU unless they agree to a series of reforms including restrictions on the free movement of people.
Major challenged Merkel and other EU leaders who have said that they cannot countenance any change to the free movement of people on the grounds that it is one of the four freedoms enshrined in the EEC’s founding Treaty of Rome in 1957, those being the free movement of people, capital, goods and services.
The former prime minister said EU leaders were in no position to offer lectures on the four freedoms because the other three have never been properly implemented.
He said: “I hear it said by eminent Europeans that freedom of movement is sacrosanct. It is one of the four freedoms set out in the founding treaty. The argument is that if we tamper with freedom of movement, the other freedoms will fall.
“I understand that view but it has a flaw. Twenty-five years after the Single European Act, the other founding freedoms are not fully honoured by the EU. Not one of them. If freedom of movement is immutable, when will member states complete the single market? When will they end closed shops and protectionism, and open their markets to British services – especially our professional services? When will they fully integrate capital markets? Or the energy market? Or digital? Need I go on? If these had been implemented in full, then Britain’s case on free movement would be weakened. But they are not.”
a) There was a cumulative public dislike of not having referendums when others did, and of those others being ignored, repeated or bypassed
b) FoM was perhaps a swing issue; 'being tin eared' on migration is true but outweighed by the fact that FoM had taken UK control away
c) Low turnout at EU elections may have been due to the fact being discerned that democratic processes made no difference and were attached to no levers. This was and is essentially a Potemkin parliament not worth bothering with
d) The UK population, being like me, north European barbarians, are exceedingly averse to theory of any description. That doesn't mean they can't spot a democratic deficit.
To do you own thing is a powerful draw and motivator.
I don’t find it very good as analogy with leaving the EU, though. There was no “boss” telling the UK “what to do”. That’s reductive to the point of grossly misrepresentative.
1.51 Liz Truss 66%
3 Rishi Sunak 33%
Next Conservative leader
1.5 Liz Truss 67%
3 Rishi Sunak 33%
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
@HYUFD, see the GINI coefficient instead. It's still an imperfect measure, but it better supports your argument. Sweden is surprisingly unequal, even worse than the US. Australia, France and Italy are fairer than us.
On income GINI, the UK is far higher than the Nordic model countries.
That’s another reason why the refusal to submit the trade deals to scrutiny is sub-optimal.
https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3571471-fbi-found-huawei-equipment-in-midwest-could-disrupt-us-nuclear-communications-cnn/
The cost will be 7 euros and will last for 3 years or until the expiry of the passport if that’s less .
If you’re a dual national and hold an EU passport and coming from the UK you don’t need to apply for that as long as you use your EU passport whilst you travel .
Hampshire new boy Sam Northeast was out for three on his England Lions debut against West Indies A.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/16055686.cricket-northeast-cheaply-england-lions-debut/
They may be right, they may be wrong, but that doesn't matter.
Unless you are planning to retire outside the Uk where housing is cheaper, in many ways it could be seen as a greater cost of living.
That said, it’s the start of the school holidays so it stands to reason it will be much busier in the Dover-Calais direction than coming back to the UK.
I have the joy of the ferry next Saturday.
F1: intriguing grid for tomorrow. Pre-race nonsense will be up in the morning, as usual.
This is why we calculate the poverty line as 60% (sometimes 50%) of the median income. The UK has an awful lot of people below this line.
As you say, wealth in the UK is inflated by housing. So median wealth is a particularly bad way of comparing the UK with Sweden if you're interested in how the "oiks" are doing.
https://twitter.com/asIiceofhistory/status/1550612667345145856?s=20&t=EeSoeyeiJO5xl_yaFvdhAg
In many ways the future of the country depends on some idiot who does stuff like that - that’s where the next wave comes from.
A couple of bicycle mechanics decide that they can do better at the whole trying to fly thing….
I’ve seen so many people bashed into a square hole - safe job, safe safe safe. Miserable as all hell inside. Let them out. Set them free….
A constitutional convention should have been launched but, instead, we launched into a turf war over the mechanics of the vote.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
You just have your own prejudices and are constantly fighting to control them, just like many other people.
WRT to BoE Independence, it is worth noting that most countries have independent central banks with specific inflation mandates.
And there's plenty of evidence that many British Governments - prior to its independence - had chosen to cut interest rates in the run up to elections in order to garner votes, which resulted in the UK having one of the highest average inflation rates in the developed world.
It's the same effect in microcosm of the tragedy of @southamobserver who's been totally ensnared by Twitter and has now become a shadow of his former self.
But the possibility awaits for a leader of centrists everywhere to promote something which would be consistent with the Brexit vote (though not the rhetoric of course) and be the only practical next step.
This of course requires a UK politicians to say that past folly and hubris of both UK and EU had got us into the place where we were unable to stop FoM and protect UK interests at the same time.
All the signs at Waterloo Station must be incredibly unpopular and despised by all Londoners because that's what I think and the two people I asked agree with me.
When met with opposition it is denial that follows.
IT. IS. A. CHOICE
Not a ‘mistake’
We did send money to the EU we could use on the NHS instead.
Whether you want to use the net or gross figure doesn't change that fact. People use gross figures all the time, if a company advertises a salary quoting a gross figure then the fact PAYE applies doesn't mean the gross figure was a lie.
No-one who has reasoned or measured views on it should have liked it, which is why I'm so disappointed in @Gardenwalker
But they are individuals taking decisions which affect only them. If Wilbur and Orville had smashed themselves into a bloody pulp, no-one else would have been killed.
And Brexiters will no doubt say that applies to the UK. We can make our own choices! Stand and fall by our own decisions!
But that isn’t how it was sold, was it? No downsides, no bloody pulp in the sand, only considerable upsides! Right-wing wreckers peddling lies that affect tens of millions of people.
Lies that persist in the shitshow of the current leadership contest. Pain-free fantasies as the post-Brexit bin fire really starts to hot up.
You keep returning to this subject, days after I've moved on from it, which is interesting because it must be playing on your mind.
You're smart, so I'll take that as a positive.