The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Sir John Major has issued a powerful warning to Britain’s natural allies across Europe that they risk forcing the UK out of the EU unless they agree to a series of reforms including restrictions on the free movement of people.
Major challenged Merkel and other EU leaders who have said that they cannot countenance any change to the free movement of people on the grounds that it is one of the four freedoms enshrined in the EEC’s founding Treaty of Rome in 1957, those being the free movement of people, capital, goods and services.
The former prime minister said EU leaders were in no position to offer lectures on the four freedoms because the other three have never been properly implemented.
He said: “I hear it said by eminent Europeans that freedom of movement is sacrosanct. It is one of the four freedoms set out in the founding treaty. The argument is that if we tamper with freedom of movement, the other freedoms will fall.
“I understand that view but it has a flaw. Twenty-five years after the Single European Act, the other founding freedoms are not fully honoured by the EU. Not one of them. If freedom of movement is immutable, when will member states complete the single market? When will they end closed shops and protectionism, and open their markets to British services – especially our professional services? When will they fully integrate capital markets? Or the energy market? Or digital? Need I go on? If these had been implemented in full, then Britain’s case on free movement would be weakened. But they are not.”
And, Major was right.
Inevitably either Major was right then and wrong now, or wrong then and right now, and he and his fellow remainers are going to overlook this fact.
I think for Major it's personal. He's lost to what he thinks are the f-kers who brought him down in the 1990s.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
The other way of looking at it, is that your friend took a chance on doing something… different.
In many ways the future of the country depends on some idiot who does stuff like that - that’s where the next wave comes from.
A couple of bicycle mechanics decide that they can do better at the whole trying to fly thing….
I’ve seen so many people bashed into a square hole - safe job, safe safe safe. Miserable as all hell inside. Let them out. Set them free….
I get that, I don’t disagree. Let them go, do what they want, stand or fall by their own choices.
But they are individuals taking decisions which affect only them. If Wilbur and Orville had smashed themselves into a bloody pulp, no-one else would have been killed.
And Brexiters will no doubt say that applies to the UK. We can make our own choices! Stand and fall by our own decisions!
But that isn’t how it was sold, was it? No downsides, no bloody pulp in the sand, only considerable upsides! Right-wing wreckers peddling lies that affect tens of millions of people.
Lies that persist in the shitshow of the current leadership contest. Pain-free fantasies as the post-Brexit bin fire really starts to hot up.
What lies? All that was said is that we would be free to make our own choices, which we are; and that we were net contributors to the EU with money we could use on the NHS instead, which we were and we are now putting it into the NHS instead.
Everything Vote Leave promised has come to pass. Everything Project Fear promised has been shown to be a bad joke.
I would have thought median wealth a better measure than mean wealth, but UK wealth measures are inflated by the very high value of housing.
Unless you are planning to retire outside the Uk where housing is cheaper, in many ways it could be seen as a greater cost of living.
I came across some interesting stats on that, which has the UK less out of line than I expected - which I haven't thought through yet. Puts us in line with Norway / Germany / Austria / France in 2020 for newbuild.
That France number does not match my general impression, and the opinions of all the Brits living in France demanding that housing there is cheaper and higher quality.
There may be something about greater variability across the UK, but I am not aware of London vs Paris, London vs Hamburg / Munich / Frankfurt etc.
In the chart, dark blue is existing, light blue is newbuild.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
What do you suggest for those of us who like whisky and don’t drink beer ?
You're screwed, I'm afraid, calorie savings have to be made elsewhere. I consider a switch to vodka a diminishing return and I can't stand the stuff myself. Leon mentioned dry reds?
The debate on Brexit is tiresome. It’s obviously a massive mistake but there is no political will to fix it. The thickos, the wrinklies and the xenophobes won - we need to move on knowing that we will be less affluent and less influential.
And who do I blame for this clusterf*ck? David “call me Dave” Cameron! Where is the moron now?
What did Cameron do wrong precisely?
He proposed some very sane, very rational reforms to the EU and they were rejected out of hand.
Perhaps he should at that point have advocated a Leave vote, but he didn't and the rest is history.
Sir John Major has issued a powerful warning to Britain’s natural allies across Europe that they risk forcing the UK out of the EU unless they agree to a series of reforms including restrictions on the free movement of people.
Major challenged Merkel and other EU leaders who have said that they cannot countenance any change to the free movement of people on the grounds that it is one of the four freedoms enshrined in the EEC’s founding Treaty of Rome in 1957, those being the free movement of people, capital, goods and services.
The former prime minister said EU leaders were in no position to offer lectures on the four freedoms because the other three have never been properly implemented.
He said: “I hear it said by eminent Europeans that freedom of movement is sacrosanct. It is one of the four freedoms set out in the founding treaty. The argument is that if we tamper with freedom of movement, the other freedoms will fall.
“I understand that view but it has a flaw. Twenty-five years after the Single European Act, the other founding freedoms are not fully honoured by the EU. Not one of them. If freedom of movement is immutable, when will member states complete the single market? When will they end closed shops and protectionism, and open their markets to British services – especially our professional services? When will they fully integrate capital markets? Or the energy market? Or digital? Need I go on? If these had been implemented in full, then Britain’s case on free movement would be weakened. But they are not.”
And, Major was right.
Inevitably either Major was right then and wrong now, or wrong then and right now, and he and his fellow remainers are going to overlook this fact.
I think for Major it's personal. He's lost to what he thinks are the f-kers who brought him down in the 1990s.
I don't think he's ever been a massive europhile.
He’s quite a bitter man
But then that’s true of many ex PM’s. May is the same, if not worse. Brown is moderately bitter
The happiest ex PM seems to be Blair. Maybe his naturally sunny disposition
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
That's an OTT reaction to an interesting illustrative anecdote.
I went with as friend to see Jerusalem yesterday (https://www.timeout.com/london/theatre/jerusalem-review) which is a more extreme version of the theme. The anti-hero lives his life defiantly in a caravan in the woods, dealing drugs and entertaining local people in dead-end jobs with riotous, drunken, stoned, sweary parties (he makes Leon's posts sound like conversation at a vicarage teaparty). The local council wants to built new houses on the site, so superfically he's a sturdy Brit standing up to bossy bureaucrats. As the play evolves, you come to see both sides - he's free in a sense that everyone else in the play is not, but also very much alone. It's not a political play and there are no Brexit morality tales either way, but it's much more thoughtful than it appears.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
If you'd actually read my posts you'd have seen I criticised that too.
You keep returning to this subject, days after I've moved on from it, which is interesting because it must be playing on your mind.
You're smart, so I'll take that as a positive.
It worth pointing out that the clap for carers came and went quite quickly. Even the instigator said enough was enough.
Well, it did eventually but every Thursday for over 2 months was still too much. And it started to a become a bit Juche with judgement if you didn't do this.
We see this now with Pride where it starts at the end of May and doesn't end until about a week or two into July.
It used to be a big march and a party on one Saturday in June, and all the more distinctive for it.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
I think the original one was for the carers, then for a few weeks for many it was the one opportunity where you socialise with your neighbours at a time when venturing too far from your home to sit on a bench could get over excited police interested if in rules were being broken.
Brexit must be thought of as a process of democratic refurbishment, or it simply will not stick.
That’s another reason why the refusal to submit the trade deals to scrutiny is sub-optimal.
I agree, and this is where I agree it hasn't been imaginative.
A constitutional convention should have been launched but, instead, we launched into a turf war over the mechanics of the vote.
Of course. But what I am not is rigidly dogmatic. I tremble with frustration when people say that. The truth is - and my posts testify to this - I'm all over the place. Eg I'm literally the only hard left sound money social democrat on this site.
Edit: whoops, was replying to your other post about my prejudices!
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
If you'd actually read my posts you'd have seen I criticised that too.
You keep returning to this subject, days after I've moved on from it, which is interesting because it must be playing on your mind.
You're smart, so I'll take that as a positive.
It worth pointing out that the clap for carers came and went quite quickly. Even the instigator said enough was enough.
Well, it did eventually but every Thursday for over 2 months was still too much. And it started to a become a bit Juche with judgement if you didn't do this.
We see this now with Pride where it starts at the end of May and doesn't end until about a week or two into July.
It used to be a big march and a party on one Saturday in June, and all the more distinctive for it.
Was it as long as 2 months....I didn't realise that. Because well at Chez Urquhart we didn't partake as the only things hearing our clapping would be rather confused cows.
I would have thought median wealth a better measure than mean wealth, but UK wealth measures are inflated by the very high value of housing.
Unless you are planning to retire outside the Uk where housing is cheaper, in many ways it could be seen as a greater cost of living.
I think @OnlyLivingBoy was making a point about inequality in the UK. While the median is better than the mean for getting a sense of how rich the average person is, it can still cover up extensive poverty.
This is why we calculate the poverty line as 60% (sometimes 50%) of the median income. The UK has an awful lot of people below this line.
As you say, wealth in the UK is inflated by housing. So median wealth is a particularly bad way of comparing the UK with Sweden if you're interested in how the "oiks" are doing.
Brexit must be thought of as a process of democratic refurbishment, or it simply will not stick.
That’s another reason why the refusal to submit the trade deals to scrutiny is sub-optimal.
I agree, and this is where I agree it hasn't been imaginative.
A constitutional convention should have been launched but, instead, we launched into a turf war over the mechanics of the vote.
Of course. But what I am not is rigidly dogmatic. I tremble with frustration when people say that. The truth is - and my posts testify to this - I'm all over the place. Eg I'm literally the only hard left sound money social democrat on this site.
Brexit must be thought of as a process of democratic refurbishment, or it simply will not stick.
That’s another reason why the refusal to submit the trade deals to scrutiny is sub-optimal.
I agree, and this is where I agree it hasn't been imaginative.
A constitutional convention should have been launched but, instead, we launched into a turf war over the mechanics of the vote.
Of course. But what I am not is rigidly dogmatic. I tremble with frustration when people say that. The truth is - and my posts testify to this - I'm all over the place. Eg I'm literally the only hard left sound money social democrat on this site.
Edit: whoops, was replying to your other post about my prejudices!
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
That's an OTT reaction to an interesting illustrative anecdote.
I went with as friend to see Jerusalem yesterday (https://www.timeout.com/london/theatre/jerusalem-review) which is a more extreme version of the theme. The anti-hero lives his life defiantly in a caravan in the woods, dealing drugs and entertaining local people in dead-end jobs with riotous, drunken, stoned, sweary parties (he makes Leon's posts sound like conversation at a vicarage teaparty). The local council wants to built new houses on the site, so superfically he's a sturdy Brit standing up to bossy bureaucrats. As the play evolves, you come to see both sides - he's free in a sense that everyone else in the play is not, but also very much alone. It's not a political play and there are no Brexit morality tales either way, but it's much more thoughtful than it appears.
Over lockdown we did some play readings with theatrically inclined friends and neighbours over Zoom, and when we did Jerusalem I was bewitched by the language and ideas of the play. We finally got to see it a few months ago and it didn't disappoint. Mark Rylance is incredible.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Err, I think I know mate because tedious twats like you tell me about a gazillion times on here each and every day.
You are a very angry person I think. It takes very little to trigger it.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep down" why, don't you?
It must cut for someone very patriotic to know you shunted your country onto the slow line.
The same way a woman chooses to have a baby, knowing she will be off the career ladder, and her career is likely to suffer. She does it anyway. Because she wants a baby
IT. IS. A. CHOICE
Not a ‘mistake’
A choice that seems to require ever more bizarre analogies to justify! Looking forward to the next one.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I understand those who think it was a huge mistake, I just disagree with them.
And I don't think you should read too much into the opinion polls. Essentially people who rejected Brexit largely still do, but not all want to reverse it. Essentially most people who backed Brexit largely still do, but some now say "don't know" instead. Besides which opinion polls should always be taken with a pinch of salt anyway, but it's really much of a muchness that should be ignored.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
I'm not a fan of either but weed smells infinitely better and more floral than the pungent smell of tobacco.
I realise this post may get me into trouble with the moderators but it's been on my mind all day so here goes:
This morning the Daily Express ran a ComRes poll which it commissioned showing Truss with a 38-37 lead over Starmer on the question of who would be the better Prime Minister. We know the Daily Express, having been huge fans of Johnson, have turned on Sunak with a vengeance and now back Truss so this result has been splashed all over their front page as "evidence" Truss can win an election.
Let's go back to June 2019 and who remembers this polling gem also from ComRes:
I'm citing the Daily Mail quote because the original Telegraph piece is firewalled but the poll was commissioned by the Telegraph who at that time employed Johnson as a columnist and were his staunchest supporters.
So that's two polls from the same pollster pretty much, if I'm being honest, providing the answers the organisation commissioning the poll would have wanted.
Now, in lieu of data tables and independent scrutiny, I'm left to ask myself whether polling organisations are as independent as we are told or whether he who commissions the poll gets the results they want.
I would further argue such polling undoubtedly has huge influence on the outcome of any election. There's little doubt the ComRes polling of June 2019 won the leadership election for Johnson - he was going to win a 140 seat majority for the Conservatives winning 395 seats at the election (he underachieved a little on that of course). From that point on, as the only candidate seemingly able to win a majority, Johnson was going to win the election.
Now, we have a poll showing Truss narrowly ahead of Starmer - Sunak still trails Starmer by the way - and that's published in a pro-Truss newspaper having been commissioned by that newspaper.
I'm not accusing anybody of anything but it stinks more than Beckton civic amenity site on a hot summer's afternoon. Newspapers commissioning supine pollsters to produce poll results confirming the bias or view of the newspaper - I'm not suggesting that is happening or has happened but I'm left to wonder.
To what extent should the British Polling Council perhaps impose its own embargo on this kind of newspaper-commissioned polling - the integrity of polling and pollsters comes into question when it seems, I'm sure purely coincidentally, the person commissioning the poll is getting the result they want rather than another result.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
Brexit was us joining a club and then, we grew tired of the jacket and tie at lunch rule, we resigned our membership.
All well and good.
The problem is with the dolts who don't understand that we decided to join the club and decided to leave it; at all times we were in control of our destiny. Call it sovereignty. They, poor saps, think that we somehow weren't sovereign while we were a member.
As to the rules we became fed up with I'm guessing a very small percentage of people knew what they were.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
Here's something the Brexit sides may, I repeat, may, be able to agree on. I think both Obama and Trump should have kept their opinions on Brexit to themselves. I think Obama was wrong to warn of likely American penalties, and that Trump was wrong to cheer on the process.
If asked about the question by some inquisitive British journalist, they should have said simply that it was a question for the British people to decide. And stuck to that.
I realise this post may get me into trouble with the moderators but it's been on my mind all day so here goes:
This morning the Daily Express ran a ComRes poll which it commissioned showing Truss with a 38-37 lead over Starmer on the question of who would be the better Prime Minister. We know the Daily Express, having been huge fans of Johnson, have turned on Sunak with a vengeance and now back Truss so this result has been splashed all over their front page as "evidence" Truss can win an election.
Let's go back to June 2019 and who remembers this polling gem also from ComRes:
I'm citing the Daily Mail quote because the original Telegraph piece is firewalled but the poll was commissioned by the Telegraph who at that time employed Johnson as a columnist and were his staunchest supporters.
So that's two polls from the same pollster pretty much, if I'm being honest, providing the answers the organisation commissioning the poll would have wanted.
Now, in lieu of data tables and independent scrutiny, I'm left to ask myself whether polling organisations are as independent as we are told or whether he who commissions the poll gets the results they want.
I would further argue such polling undoubtedly has huge influence on the outcome of any election. There's little doubt the ComRes polling of June 2019 won the leadership election for Johnson - he was going to win a 140 seat majority for the Conservatives winning 395 seats at the election (he underachieved a little on that of course). From that point on, as the only candidate seemingly able to win a majority, Johnson was going to win the election.
Now, we have a poll showing Truss narrowly ahead of Starmer - Sunak still trails Starmer by the way - and that's published in a pro-Truss newspaper having been commissioned by that newspaper.
I'm not accusing anybody of anything but it stinks more than Beckton civic amenity site on a hot summer's afternoon. Newspapers commissioning supine pollsters to produce poll results confirming the bias or view of the newspaper - I'm not suggesting that is happening or has happened but I'm left to wonder.
To what extent should the British Polling Council perhaps impose its own embargo on this kind of newspaper-commissioned polling - the integrity of polling and pollsters comes into question when it seems, I'm sure purely coincidentally, the person commissioning the poll is getting the result they want rather than another result.
RedfieldWilton today has 28% of voters saying they could vote for a Sunak led Tory party and 32% for a Truss led Tory party.
Not great results for either in this poll but does seem Truss has gained ground on Sunak with all voters
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Brexit must be thought of as a process of democratic refurbishment, or it simply will not stick.
That’s another reason why the refusal to submit the trade deals to scrutiny is sub-optimal.
I agree, and this is where I agree it hasn't been imaginative.
A constitutional convention should have been launched but, instead, we launched into a turf war over the mechanics of the vote.
Of course. But what I am not is rigidly dogmatic. I tremble with frustration when people say that. The truth is - and my posts testify to this - I'm all over the place. Eg I'm literally the only hard left sound money social democrat on this site.
Edit: whoops, was replying to your other post about my prejudices!
Sound money?
Yet you claim Brown didn't overspend. 🤣
Did a bit. I just reject the silly Tory Story hyperbole they spun about the crash. As almost everyone does now.
I realise this post may get me into trouble with the moderators but it's been on my mind all day so here goes:
This morning the Daily Express ran a ComRes poll which it commissioned showing Truss with a 38-37 lead over Starmer on the question of who would be the better Prime Minister. We know the Daily Express, having been huge fans of Johnson, have turned on Sunak with a vengeance and now back Truss so this result has been splashed all over their front page as "evidence" Truss can win an election.
Let's go back to June 2019 and who remembers this polling gem also from ComRes:
I'm citing the Daily Mail quote because the original Telegraph piece is firewalled but the poll was commissioned by the Telegraph who at that time employed Johnson as a columnist and were his staunchest supporters.
So that's two polls from the same pollster pretty much, if I'm being honest, providing the answers the organisation commissioning the poll would have wanted.
Now, in lieu of data tables and independent scrutiny, I'm left to ask myself whether polling organisations are as independent as we are told or whether he who commissions the poll gets the results they want.
I would further argue such polling undoubtedly has huge influence on the outcome of any election. There's little doubt the ComRes polling of June 2019 won the leadership election for Johnson - he was going to win a 140 seat majority for the Conservatives winning 395 seats at the election (he underachieved a little on that of course). From that point on, as the only candidate seemingly able to win a majority, Johnson was going to win the election.
Now, we have a poll showing Truss narrowly ahead of Starmer - Sunak still trails Starmer by the way - and that's published in a pro-Truss newspaper having been commissioned by that newspaper.
I'm not accusing anybody of anything but it stinks more than Beckton civic amenity site on a hot summer's afternoon. Newspapers commissioning supine pollsters to produce poll results confirming the bias or view of the newspaper - I'm not suggesting that is happening or has happened but I'm left to wonder.
To what extent should the British Polling Council perhaps impose its own embargo on this kind of newspaper-commissioned polling - the integrity of polling and pollsters comes into question when it seems, I'm sure purely coincidentally, the person commissioning the poll is getting the result they want rather than another result.
Both polls look about right to me, I certainly wouldn't argue for anything stronger than publication bias on the part of the newspaper, not the polling co.
If it's open season on pollcos I am much more interested in how much tax was paid on Zahawi's dad's Gibraltarian mate's Youguv shareholding.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
I reckon 4 April 2023 will be a momentous day. Someone will finally read some pb posts from the other side about Brexit and be the first to actually change their mind, and admit they were wrong. We might get a second turncoat by the end of 2024.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
Sovereignty means more to some people than being able to get divorced if you want to make any of your decisions.
I reckon 4 April 2023 will be a momentous day. Someone will finally read some pb posts from the other side about Brexit and be the first to actually change their mind, and admit they were wrong. We might get a second turncoat by the end of 2024.
Funny, but at least three people have changed their minds on Brexit on PB.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
I reckon 4 April 2023 will be a momentous day. Someone will finally read some pb posts from the other side about Brexit and be the first to actually change their mind, and admit they were wrong. We might get a second turncoat by the end of 2024.
Lol. I wonder if we will ever see the last PB comment on Brexit? Or will the Singularity come first?
I reckon 4 April 2023 will be a momentous day. Someone will finally read some pb posts from the other side about Brexit and be the first to actually change their mind, and admit they were wrong. We might get a second turncoat by the end of 2024.
Funny, but at least three people have changed their minds on Brexit on PB.
So one turncoat for every two years or so of frenzied debate.....
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
I reckon 4 April 2023 will be a momentous day. Someone will finally read some pb posts from the other side about Brexit and be the first to actually change their mind, and admit they were wrong. We might get a second turncoat by the end of 2024.
Funny, but at least three people have changed their minds on Brexit on PB.
So one turncoat for every two years or so of frenzied debate.....
Indeed. Though all 3 concerts I'm thinking of have the zeal of the convert, for whatever that is worth.
I reckon 4 April 2023 will be a momentous day. Someone will finally read some pb posts from the other side about Brexit and be the first to actually change their mind, and admit they were wrong. We might get a second turncoat by the end of 2024.
Funny, but at least three people have changed their minds on Brexit on PB.
So one turncoat for every two years or so of frenzied debate.....
Indeed. Though all 3 concerts I'm thinking of have the zeal of the convert, for whatever that is worth.
There might be more I've missed.
And a net change of 1 person after six years......
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
I'm not a fan of either but weed smells infinitely better and more floral than the pungent smell of tobacco.
I'm not a particular fan of tabacco smoke, don't care either way. It's nasty the way it clings to clothes.
But it doesn't smell like a warm dog turd on a sun-kissed pavement the way weed does. So there's that.
Of course hash brownies or whatever presumably don't smell of anything. But then you're back to calories.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
Yep, because we're at the fag-end of a Conservative government, most of the regular Tory posters have left the site over the last 10 years and there's now a residual Remainer herd on here that bubble likes posts from its own.
It's the same effect in microcosm of the tragedy of @southamobserver who's been totally ensnared by Twitter and has now become a shadow of his former self.
It was that rarest of things - a nailing of the essence of Brexit with an analogy.
Normally when people attempt this they misfire. Their analogy is shallow or silly or done mainly for comedy value.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
You mean that's not what they're doing?
Of course for Leavers that took four decades to bear fruit, and even then only narrowly and only after the Remain side seized every opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.
So good luck with the next three and a half decades of being miserable and angry if that is the plan.
OK. so not drinking makes me even MORE aggressive and exuberantly punchy
Who could have foreseen that? Eh?
WANKERS
Suns over the yardarm, time for a drink old chap.
If this is what sobriety is like, after a week of it I'll end up punching MYSELF
After all this time, I have learned that my excessive drinking was merely wise and sensible self-medication, to deal with pent-up aggression, and anger management issues
Who knew?
Not to encourage bad habits, but I've found in the field of weight loss and drink that you can achieve results by switching to a less calorific tipple. For myself, I love a beer and can quite happily sink a substantial amount (happily at the time, that is). I've switched to a couple of whiskeys on a Friday night and I save the beer for a special occasion. The upside of this is twofold. First, I'm drinking fewer calories. Secondly, I'm drinking less because whiskey is inferior to beer.
That, along with a broader calorie restriction, has resulted in a decent weight loss (my holiday in the US may have reversed this trend slightly, but now back in Blighty it's full steam ahead).
I've been researching what booze to drink for weight loss when I go back on the sauce (I can't cope with this level of boredom forever, also I will drive you all insane with my punchy sober self)
Apparently dry red wine and clear spirits are the best, least carbs and least sugar. Which is fine as my tipples are red wine and G&T
BUT I have decided to do a lot more of these clean sober days, I do feel refreshed, the eye is brighter, the liver sighs with relief. Maybe 2-3 days a week. Also helps get the chunk off, natch
Vodka. Mix it with ice, like a nice whisky - not with lemonade or coke - so buy the expensive stuff.
Switch to weed and cut out the calories altogether. Don't even have to smoke it these days, so no harmful tobacco, and all in all a calorie-free treat*
*until you get the munchies
I quite like weed but the buzz isn't the same as booze.
Booze is generally more fun, and more reliable, and certainly more sensuous - a fine Georgian amber wine with khinkali and walnut salad! Mmmm
Weed is a nice change. Something for the weekend, Sir
It also smells of shit. So if you want to smell like dog faeces, it's definitely an option.
It's not that bad a smell, but it is pungent so becomes overpowering pretty quickly.
I realise this post may get me into trouble with the moderators but it's been on my mind all day so here goes:
This morning the Daily Express ran a ComRes poll which it commissioned showing Truss with a 38-37 lead over Starmer on the question of who would be the better Prime Minister. We know the Daily Express, having been huge fans of Johnson, have turned on Sunak with a vengeance and now back Truss so this result has been splashed all over their front page as "evidence" Truss can win an election.
Let's go back to June 2019 and who remembers this polling gem also from ComRes:
I'm citing the Daily Mail quote because the original Telegraph piece is firewalled but the poll was commissioned by the Telegraph who at that time employed Johnson as a columnist and were his staunchest supporters.
So that's two polls from the same pollster pretty much, if I'm being honest, providing the answers the organisation commissioning the poll would have wanted.
Now, in lieu of data tables and independent scrutiny, I'm left to ask myself whether polling organisations are as independent as we are told or whether he who commissions the poll gets the results they want.
I would further argue such polling undoubtedly has huge influence on the outcome of any election. There's little doubt the ComRes polling of June 2019 won the leadership election for Johnson - he was going to win a 140 seat majority for the Conservatives winning 395 seats at the election (he underachieved a little on that of course). From that point on, as the only candidate seemingly able to win a majority, Johnson was going to win the election.
Now, we have a poll showing Truss narrowly ahead of Starmer - Sunak still trails Starmer by the way - and that's published in a pro-Truss newspaper having been commissioned by that newspaper.
I'm not accusing anybody of anything but it stinks more than Beckton civic amenity site on a hot summer's afternoon. Newspapers commissioning supine pollsters to produce poll results confirming the bias or view of the newspaper - I'm not suggesting that is happening or has happened but I'm left to wonder.
To what extent should the British Polling Council perhaps impose its own embargo on this kind of newspaper-commissioned polling - the integrity of polling and pollsters comes into question when it seems, I'm sure purely coincidentally, the person commissioning the poll is getting the result they want rather than another result.
Pollsters want to be as accurate as they can and it’s not likely they would put out a clearly biased poll. However the question wording is important and you can get a question that’s somewhat loaded or not fully descriptive .
So for example let’s say on the issue of freedom of movement before Brexit .
Freedom of movement allows EU nationals to move to the UK . Do you support this ?
Freedom of movement allows EU nationals to move to the UK . It also allows UK nationals to move to EU countries . Do you support this ?
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
You seem to think that the club should be most generous to the member walking out the door, who didn't pay their full subs for decades, screaming that the remaining members were a bunch of Nazis and urging the others to walk out too.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
Go for it! Knock yourselves out
And yet I doubt you really have the fortitude for a campaign lasting 41 years
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
How about the ones who feel it's 12 years of Tory incompetence and chaos? Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
Other than Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn, who is proposing any change from the Treasury consensus?
Change entirely for its own sake is not sufficient in and of itself. One could transform the economic prospects of the nation by the simple expedient of executing everyone over the age of 65. It doesn't necessarily follow that this would be desirable.
Here's something the Brexit sides may, I repeat, may, be able to agree on. I think both Obama and Trump should have kept their opinions on Brexit to themselves. I think Obama was wrong to warn of likely American penalties, and that Trump was wrong to cheer on the process.
If asked about the question by some inquisitive British journalist, they should have said simply that it was a question for the British people to decide. And stuck to that.
Tactically you are probably right. Foreign politicians weighing in one side rarely push the needle in the direction they hope. But logically, I see no reason why foreign politicians and countries should not be free to speak directly to us about our choices.
Bloody got COVID for the 3rd time, was feeling pretty crummy all of yesterday and this morning my wife suggested that it's probably COVID. Took the test and it is.
I think it's already on the way out because I don't feel as feverish as yesterday but I still get out of breath walking upstairs. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be gone. This is worse than the version I got in December but not as bad as the March 2020 vintage.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
How about the ones who feel it's 12 years of Tory incompetence and chaos? Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
Other than Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn, who is proposing any change from the Treasury consensus?
Is she really going to deliver on that? It seems like an entirely reactionary, er, reaction, like she needed something to differentiate herself in a leadership contest (even if it trashes the governments she's claimed to believe in), so probably doesn't really believe in it.
Kansas City Star - Fist pumper to fleeing coward: Jan. 6 video shows Missouri who Josh Hawley really is
Josh Hawley is a laughingstock. During Thursday night’s televised hearings of the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, coup attempt at the U.S. Capitol, Rep. Elaine Luria showed video of Missouri’s junior senator that will surely follow him the rest of his life. In the clip, Hawley sprints across a hallway as he and his fellow senators are evacuated after insurrectionists had breached the Capitol building. When it played on the screen, the audience in the room with the committee erupted in laughter.
Of course, Twitter immediately dogpiled. Hawley’s name was the No. 1 trending topic in politics that evening as users shared the hashtag #HawlinAss along with GIFs of a galloping Forrest Gump. “From now on, if political reporters ask Josh Hawley if he’s planning to run, he’s going to have to ask them to clarify,” quipped one.
Hawley has become one of the defining figures of that day. A famous photo captured by Francis Chung shows him raising a fist in solidarity with the crowds that would soon break through doors, loot offices and assault law enforcement. Luria quoted a Capitol Police officer who was there and told the committee that Hawley’s gesture “riled up the crowd, and it bothered her greatly because he was doing it in a safe space protected by the officers and the barriers.” And later, when the Senate reconvened after the halls of the Capitol had been cleared and secured, Hawley took to the floor as the very first voice calling to throw out millions of Americans’ votes cast fairly and legally for the rightful winner in a presidential election. And never forget: He was joined in his campaign to discard ballots by Kansas Sen. Roger Marshall.
A signature Hawley issue is masculinity — as in, how little of it American men seem to have these days. It’s a frequent topic in his speeches and on his podcast, where “the left-wing attack on manhood” is a dire threat to our society. Regnery Publishing is set to release his book “Manhood: The Masculine Virtues America Needs” next year. Twitter didn’t see much virile bravado as he ran from the mob. . . .
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
Bloody got COVID for the 3rd time, was feeling pretty crummy all of yesterday and this morning my wife suggested that it's probably COVID. Took the test and it is.
I think it's already on the way out because I don't feel as feverish as yesterday but I still get out of breath walking upstairs. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be gone. This is worse than the version I got in December but not as bad as the March 2020 vintage.
it's strange, because my wife and I are still to get it. We only go to Tesco once a week and walk the dogs. We are both retired as well. Can I ask how active you are in meeting people?
During the Parliamentary debates on leaving, compromise and general niceness was the ally of pro-EU types. Division was the advantage of those who wanted a starker departure.
Men convinced of their own cleverness like Dominic Grieve shot themselves in the foot when they got precisely what they damned* but threw their toys out of the pram and voted against the proposal anyway.
The major clue (and I said it at the time, as did many others) was when they marched through the lobbies with arch-sceptics. Somebody was buggering up their voting, and for all the derision aimed at Leavers at least they actually voted for what they wanted.
The pro-EU side ended up nobbling every compromise and then the deal of May, presumably on the insane basis any replacement for May would end up somehow being more pro-EU than her.
Inclusivity, compromise, these are the allies of the pro-EU sentiment. Together we're stronger than apart, brotherhood of man type stuff. Focusing on the advantages of the EU (as they should have during the incredibly inept campaign).
Edited extra bit: *an impressive typo. I meant 'demanded'.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
Sovereignty means more to some people than being able to get divorced if you want to make any of your decisions.
We decided to join the club then decided we didn't like some of the rules so left.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
How about the ones who feel it's 12 years of Tory incompetence and chaos? Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
Other than Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn, who is proposing any change from the Treasury consensus?
That's a re-hash of the "we would have got away with it but for those meddling faceless bureaucrats." The Treasury does what the Chancellor tells them to. If they're astonished to discover it was all wrong, then that it took them 12 years is proof of incompetence.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
We were about as sovereign as someone in a Mafia gang who is told ‘sure, you can leave, any time - but when you try we will break your legs’
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
You seem to think that the club should be most generous to the member walking out the door, who didn't pay their full subs for decades, screaming that the remaining members were a bunch of Nazis and urging the others to walk out too.
We generously and massively overpaid our subs for decades, an overpayment made worse by Blair giving away half the rebate for promised reforms of CAP ... promises that vanished the second the ink was dry on us agreeing to that.
Though if it takes "generosity" for us to exercise our sovereignty then how sovereign were we?
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
If the project I support goes horribly wrong, it was totally worth it. And it’s everyone else’s fault, anyway.
You’ve become a caricature; time for a new incarnation.
TBH I added the second sentence just to wind people up, as this whole stupid argument began with @kinabalu trying to wind me up
But I stand by the first sentence. I cannot regret a bid for freedom and independence
It's like moving out of your cossetting parents' house. Let's say you do it but then you go to the University of Newent and you get syphilis and you end up on heroin and you crash your car on skag and die at the age of 30
None of these things would have happened if you'd stayed safely at home with your overcaring parents. But was it a mistake moving out? The question doesn't even arise
Probing, not seeking to wind up.
Your position on all this stuff truly doesn't scan for me. Eg just taking this post - it's clear you felt us so oppressed by our EU membership that Brexit in your eyes was a noble and necessary bid for freedom and independence.
Yet when it comes to Scotland - which unlike us in the EU really does lack national sovereignty - you not only have no empathy or respect for the desire to separate you viscerally oppose it. Just the thought makes you mad as hell.
I'd like to see you try and square this circle. Try properly, I mean, not just bail out behind the trusty irony shield. If you were to try - properly - I'd give it the utmost respect and I'd tell you honestly whether I think you've succeeded or failed.
Read the thread, accountant
I answered all this before. And spare me your respect, it would make me queasy
Here's my answer on Scottish indy v British indy
"There are two competing and ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner - or whenever - you have to persuade not me, but a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster"
What is your view on Wales - we did not 'sign up' for UK - we were forecefully annexed.
People generally find it hard to be exercised about annexations from 700 years ago. They have political options now at least, which were not open at the time.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
Sovereignty means more to some people than being able to get divorced if you want to make any of your decisions.
We decided to join the club then decided we didn't like some of the rules so left.
Always sovereign.
Sovereignty was in abeyance while we were in the club. The only way to exercise our sovereignty was to leave, so you are saying leaving was the right call.
Newsom signs California gun bill modeled after Texas abortion law https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/22/politics/california-newsom-gun-bill-texas-abortion-law/index.html California Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday signed a bill into law that allows private citizens to bring civil action against anyone who manufactures, distributes, transports or imports assault weapons or ghost guns, which are banned in the state.
California Senate Bill 1327 is modeled after a Texas law that allows private citizens to bring civil litigation against abortion providers or anyone who assists a pregnant person in obtaining an abortion after as early as six weeks of pregnancy. The US Supreme Court in December allowed Texas' six-week abortion ban to remain in effect, which prompted Newsom, who has been supportive of abortion rights and pro-gun control, to say he was "outraged" by the court's decision and direct his staff to draft a similar bill to regulate guns...
Might provoke the Supreme Court into ruling on the tactic, which they’ve so far avoided doing.
What a dilemma for them, but if they need to protect their guns then they must act.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
It tickles the erogenous zones of those who'd rather think their fellow countrymen and women were gullible, naive, stupid or misled rather than they had their own sensible reasons for voting as they did.
Balls. Do you think the kind of wankers who approved of Clapping For Carers didn't buy the bus lie?
Erm, run "the bus lie" past me again, given that Theresa May invested more per week in the NHS as "the Brexit bonus" than the number on the bus.....
So if I send you a tenner and tell you it is part of the profits of my lead into gold conversion business, what is the tenner evidence of?
What they fuck are you on about? Engage with the argument or just piss off.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Remainers should cope exactly like Eurosceptics. Moan relentlessly about Brexit. Blame every ill on Brexit, whether true or not. Poison the public mind against the object of their ire. Then eventually force and win a public vote to override it.
You mean that's not what they're doing?
Of course for Leavers that took four decades to bear fruit, and even then only narrowly and only after the Remain side seized every opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.
So good luck with the next three and a half decades of being miserable and angry if that is the plan.
It won't take that long, though, because Brexit is visibly failing. Brexiteers tend to be the angry ones these days. Personally I find the whole thing pretty funny most of the time, it is such a gigantic clusterfuck. I feel sorry for the people whose livelihoods have been damaged or whose lives have been turned upside down of course. But miserable and angry doesn't really capture my mood.
Wow. 410 not out for Sam Northeast. Leics. made 584 first innings and now need 211 to avoid an innings defeat.
Highest score by an English cricket player for 127 years. Ninth highest score of all time. Second highest first-class score by a player not to play Test cricket (though I suppose that could still change).
Incredible.
I see on wiki that in 1959 Hanif Mohammed was run out on 499 going for his 500th run. What a let down!
Hi all First poll of the weekend in the mail is a deltapoll, first since April. It has truss beating sunak 26 to 24 best PM but boris beating both on 33 and headline figs only the 3 main uk parties mentioned 42 (-1) 31(-1) 10(+1) changes from April 14th
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
How about the ones who feel it's 12 years of Tory incompetence and chaos? Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
Other than Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn, who is proposing any change from the Treasury consensus?
That's a re-hash of the "we would have got away with it but for those meddling faceless bureaucrats." The Treasury does what the Chancellor tells them to. If they're astonished to discover it was all wrong, then that it took them 12 years is proof of incompetence.
But it hasn't been 12 years. It's less than 12 months since Sunak announced some of the tax rises that Truss is pledging to reverse.
She isn't planning some massive slash and burn of the state, but rather revering to the tax rates of all of 12 months ago. Oh, the horrors!
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
A foundation, not the sole foundation.
A significant element during first half of the empire's evolution?
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
A foundation, not the sole foundation.
Interesting thing is how much tea and sugar became part of the urban worker's diet - cheap calories, no alcohol.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
Equally, the Remainers are so emotionally traumatised in having come second in a democratic vote that they have spent six years running through in their minds that they couldn't possibly have lost to a bunch of pig-shit thick gammons.
They do not have the intellectual bandwidth to accept they lost and the world has moved on. So they stay rooted to 2016.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I can completely understand those who think Brexit was a terrible error. If you are so plodding and unimaginative all you cared about was the allegedly ‘nice, safe, secure’ slot we had in the EU, then Brexit is a disaster
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
We were always sovereign.
Sovereignty means more to some people than being able to get divorced if you want to make any of your decisions.
We decided to join the club then decided we didn't like some of the rules so left.
Always sovereign.
Sovereignty was in abeyance while we were in the club. The only way to exercise our sovereignty was to leave, so you are saying leaving was the right call.
Absolute rubbish.
Following the rules of a club you decide to join is not giving up sovereignty. Any more than the trade agreement we did with Australia recently is giving up sovereignty.
Did it mean we could join the club and then not follow the rules of course it didn't. But as a sovereign nation who chose to join the club we were happy to follow those rules. Until we were not.
If you define sovereignty as not agreeing to certain rules with anyone then North Korea is your ideal state. Is it?
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
A foundation, not the sole foundation.
Interesting thing is how much tea and sugar became part of the urban worker's diet - cheap calories, no alcohol.
Woke haters hate virtue signalling except clap for carers and sticking rainbows in your windows for the NHS because then it's ok
No, I hated those as well. Especially clap for carers
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
It gives me great pleasure to see how diverse football is on the pitch. When a goal is scored in particular you can see how colour-blind all the players are.
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
BLM, specifically the Colston statue topplers, brought about a fundamental paradigm shift in my historical thinking to the view that the slave trade was not a contingent blot on an otherwise noble enterprise but actually fundamental to the British Empire and the Industrial Revolution; and that denial of this fact is on a par with holocaust denial, and the source of a perfectly valid grievance.
Too simplistic. "The British Empire" is a label for a huge set of social and political processes and events over a long period of time. You could equally argue that the abolishment of slavery globally was fundamental to the British Empire - it certainly became a major feature. The slaves of the triangular trade were sourced outside the empire. How much did slavery contribute to the accumulation of capital underpinning the industrial revolution? It obviously did but it is difficult to to imagine that Britain would not have been in the vanguard of industrialisation in any case.
A foundation, not the sole foundation.
Interesting thing is how much tea and sugar became part of the urban worker's diet - cheap calories, no alcohol.
Orwell’s Down & Out in Paris and London is very good on this. 2L of weak country red per hotel kitchen worker per day in Paris, then tea and bread and margerine as a tramp in London.
@s8mb Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
How about the ones who feel it's 12 years of Tory incompetence and chaos? Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
Other than Liz Truss and Jeremy Corbyn, who is proposing any change from the Treasury consensus?
That's a re-hash of the "we would have got away with it but for those meddling faceless bureaucrats." The Treasury does what the Chancellor tells them to. If they're astonished to discover it was all wrong, then that it took them 12 years is proof of incompetence.
But it hasn't been 12 years. It's less than 12 months since Sunak announced some of the tax rises that Truss is pledging to reverse.
She isn't planning some massive slash and burn of the state, but rather revering to the tax rates of all of 12 months ago. Oh, the horrors!
We weren't discussing taxation. It was persistent low growth.
How has Sunak's team allowed this leadership race to be framed around tax cuts or not?
Seems to have been a fatal error to allow Truss to frame the race as they say.
He seems to be a very passive individual all around. With his generally decent presentation but lack of presence he seems like a decent spokesman, rather than a leader.
If he cannot overcome a candidate with Truss's flaws, it tells its own story - it's not as though the members are uncapable of liking hin, they use to do so after all.
Bloody got COVID for the 3rd time, was feeling pretty crummy all of yesterday and this morning my wife suggested that it's probably COVID. Took the test and it is.
I think it's already on the way out because I don't feel as feverish as yesterday but I still get out of breath walking upstairs. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be gone. This is worse than the version I got in December but not as bad as the March 2020 vintage.
it's strange, because my wife and I are still to get it. We only go to Tesco once a week and walk the dogs. We are both retired as well. Can I ask how active you are in meeting people?
I still haven't had it despite being in with 65,000 at the Eagles.
We'll see if I survive mingling with the masses at Farnborough this week.
My business partner has now had it twice in a fortnight.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
11 now - and counting.
And you know "deep-down" why, don't you?
It tickles the erogenous zones of those who'd rather think their fellow countrymen and women were gullible, naive, stupid or misled rather than they had their own sensible reasons for voting as they did.
Balls. Do you think the kind of wankers who approved of Clapping For Carers didn't buy the bus lie?
Erm, run "the bus lie" past me again, given that Theresa May invested more per week in the NHS as "the Brexit bonus" than the number on the bus.....
So if I send you a tenner and tell you it is part of the profits of my lead into gold conversion business, what is the tenner evidence of?
What they fuck are you on about? Engage with the argument or just piss off.
That's a bit rude. Would be interested if anyone else doesn't see the point I was making? Which is that T May saying her NHS bung was out of Brexit savings, does not prove that it was out of Brexit savings.
I think Johnson and Cummings admitted the claim was a lie anyway didn't they? One of their oh-so-clever dead cat things, that if you misstate the figure it keeps people talking about it for longer. And of course the whole disgusting NHS fallacy, invented by smarmy Dave for the AV referendum, that you can't budget for different things simultaneously on their individual merits. Let's take all the money we spend on the Navy, or higher education, or astronomy, or whatever, and give every penny to the NHS because otherwise you want sick kiddies to die.
"I have never believed that the EU would suddenly collapse. But I thought it likely that it would gradually run out of political capacity due to lack of popular legitimacy. Many, like myself, have drawn a comparison with the Austro-Hungarian empire: divided, weak but unreformable, aiming at best to maintain (as one of its rulers put it) “a stable level of discontent” among a resigned population. This now seems optimistic."
It never occurs to nationalists like Tombs that many of those opposing the government's disastrous approach to Brexit do so because they care deeply about the UK and its future.
Robert Tombs is a professor emeritus of French history at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of St John's College, Cambridge. He is also the recipient of the Ordre des Palmes académiques awarded by the French government. He is a respected and revered academic at the highest level, and a very intelligent man.
You may not agree with his views on the EU but he's a remarkably well-read and well-informed individual, and makes his arguments reasonably, proportionately and lucidly.
You are entirely unqualified to denigrate him with such smears.
No, I just do not share your opinion of him. I do not believe that thinking the government has handled Brexit disastrously equates to bashing, let alone hating, the UK. Equating the government to the country is nationalism.
He has done neither of those things.
You are criticising your own caricature of him, not the reality. Probably because the reality is too complex for you to deal with.
Maybe it's just that I can read ...
Self-hating Remainers are blind to the EU's flaws
Their obsession with bashing Britain has not wavered, even as their project across the Channel crashes and burns
Every word of that is true. There are a plethora of Remainers on this site who want to bash everything Britain does while dismissing anything that EU politicians do wrong.
There are some on this site who get so angry at anyone who has a negative word to say even about, say, German politicians soft on Russiaz that they start ranting and raving about the Express instead.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think anyone here except like two people actually want to rejoin the EU. I certainly don't.
I do not think pointing out that Brexit has issues is any more problematic than you spent presumably thirty years telling us what was going wrong with remaining.
They differ slightly in how they want to rejoin, some accept the need for a slow political process, some would do it by diktat on day 1 of a Labour govt, but all would rejoin tomorrow if a wand could be waved
It's done and we have to make the best of it. It would also be good to take the heat out of the issue so that the way forward can be plotted in a calm and pragmatic way.
The pre-requisite for this to happen is imo a fairly simple one. It just needs some sort of public statement on behalf of the Leave campaign and Leave voters that ok ok we see now this was a pretty stupid thing to do.
That would do it. Not a grovelling apology or anything. It's human nature to err. Nobody wants blood. Just the admission of an error made. Truss has done it in reverse for ultra cynical political reasons, so why not do it properly for these more admirable reasons.
You can kick it off if you want.
We are all👂👂👂
I didn’t put you on the list, so I’ve no idea why you’re replying to me. Stop it
Oh I see. Speak when spoken to, is it? Golly.
But c'mon seriously - a clear statement from you that you now realise Brexit was stupid would go a long way on here. I'd say transformational.
Take your time but please get on with it.
👂👂👂
I’m happy with Brexit. I’m pleased we’re free and democratic, once again. Next
That isn't transformational. Ah well, it'll have to be the long game then. What a shame. We had a chance here. Much needless aggro ahead.
I’ll save you the bother. I’ll never regret Brexit. Because, even if we all end up eating pebbles in Newent, it was worthwhile at least having a go at national freedom and independence. I’ll just think it’s a shame it didn’t work out - and I’ll blame the failure on the europhiles who fraudulently took us so deep into the EU - without permission - exiting became fatally dangerous
So you will totally understand the desire of Scots for independence? Or just more British exceptionalism?
Yes, I will. But there are two competing an ancient sovereignties here: the UK and Scotland, so they must be balanced
Scotland legally signed up for the UK, and to be governed by the UK Parliament (which includes freely elected Scottish MPs, alongside English, Welsh. Norn). The UK is democratic, the EU is not. So it is the UK government which has the right to allow referendums as and when it is deemed fit by all British MPs (including Scottish MPs)
I think it was right you got your referendum in 2014, it had to be called. But now you must wait for a generation
If you want one sooner, you have to persuade a majority of your British MPs at your British parliament. Westminster
Nah, leaving the EU was a material change in circumstances, and the No vote was won on the basis of staying in the EU. The generation argument is irrelevant.
That would be an interesting argument, if only the YES vote had not been predicated on instant Scottish exit from the EU, which is what would have happened if YES had won, as everyone knew but they didn't like to discuss
Anyway, we differ. Which is fine. But you don't need to persuade me, you need to persuade - if you are so inclined - the British Parliament in London SW1. Good luck. It's called a democracy
Persuading elected reps in different countries to 'allow' a process in another country? Sounds a bit EU (except that the EU puts no legal obstacles in front of countries who wish to reconsider their membership).
You signed up for full UK membership. With governance from the supreme parliament at Westminster. You got quite a lot of benefits from this, such as the British Empire, the Industrial Revolution, the extinction of your ludicrous Gaelic tongue and its replacement by noble and magnificent English, and halfway decent food (OK the last is a job still ongoing)
The quid pro quo was Westminster Decides, as it decides for all of us. And this is not so onerous, Westminster gave you a referendum 8 years ago, it's not like it is a cruel colonial state oppressing you
Get on with your lives, forget indy, go back to you hovels, and eat your oats, like a proper North Briton. It is better that way
You must be getting dizzy spinning on that top trying to arguing opposite sides of the same argument. I mean you are telling him much he has got out of it as a reason to stay (in the UK) and yet telling others you don't care what it cost to leave (the EU).
Bluntly, it's about power.
In the UK, English Conservatives are numerous enough to win votes and be in charge.
Across the EU, they aren't in charge, because there aren't enough of them.
Same was true on the left. UK socialists hated the EEC/EU until they realised they could contribute to running the thing.
What most people want is the largest unit that allows them to get their way. See also states rights arguments in the USA.
Bingo. Post of the day. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s all it was ever about for the Eurosceptics. And to get their way they’ve lied and lied and peddled unicorns. The bastards.
They don’t care about the people of this country, or their lives. They knew Brexit would bring years of division and disruption. They don’t care. They didn’t even bother to plan for it. They just want unfettered power - attractively branded as lovely, fluffy-sounding ‘sovereignty’. And they said whatever it took to get it.
It would almost make Brexit worth it if, as a reaction to the shitshow that the country is inevitably realising it is, it led to the election of a coalition that got through PR and gave the right-wingers a taste of the unwelcome fucking I, and millions of other people, feel like they’ve been given since 2016 by the bastard Conservatives and their malign fellow travellers.
This is right. British centrist dads look across the channel and see a load of people who basically think the same as them. People who like parental leave, and cycling to work, and well funded public education systems and capitalism brought to heel. People like Jacob Rees Mogg look across the channel and see nothing they like, and nobody to ally with. They would rather be the biggest fish in the shitty little pond that they have made for themselves.
Couldn’t agree more.
I used to know a bloke, now a local Conservative politician, who had a well paid job working for a big company. Secure, predictable, regular hours, happy days.
But he just couldn’t stand being told what to do. He just had to be his own boss.
So he saved up, and bought himself a business, in an area he had no knowledge of.
And now he professes to be as happy as a pig in shit cos he’s his own boss. He works every hour God sends, with his political responsibilities on top of running his business he has no personal life. No time for it. No missus anymore, kid he sees sporadically, no time - or energy - for another relationship. Drives a shitty old car. The biggest fish in his shitty little pond.
And that’s what the Eurosceptics have done to the UK. They want power so bad, they want to be their own boss so badly, they’ve jilted the UK out of its secure existence into this chaos that will leave us all poorer, working harder just to stay still, because they can’t bear to compromise, to sometimes have to be told what to do, to work with others.
It's astonishing a horseshit post like this - "I used to know a bloke.." - has got 8 likes.
Diminishes those who've rowed in behind it.
Shame.
You are so wedded to your own certainties that I don't think you are capable of seeing how millions of your countrymen view Brexit.
Erm, the irony of Remainers talking about being "wedded to your own certainties".... lol....
We all have our views on Brexit and it's not the remain side that appear to be having second thoughts - what is it now only about a third of voters still believe it was the right thing to do?
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
Equally, the Remainers are so emotionally traumatised in having come second in a democratic vote that they have spent six years running through in their minds that they couldn't possibly have lost to a bunch of pig-shit thick gammons.
They do not have the intellectual bandwidth to accept they lost and the world has moved on. So they stay rooted to 2016.
My side hasn't won a major public vote since 2005, and we lost every vote until I was 21 years old too. If there is one thing I know how to accept without trauma it is losing an election. But the nice thing about democracy is that losing an election is not the end of the debate.
Comments
Fine once. But then stop
Like taking the fucking knee. Do they still do that?
I don't think he's ever been a massive europhile.
Everything Vote Leave promised has come to pass. Everything Project Fear promised has been shown to be a bad joke.
That France number does not match my general impression, and the opinions of all the Brits living in France demanding that housing there is cheaper and higher quality.
There may be something about greater variability across the UK, but I am not aware of London vs Paris, London vs Hamburg / Munich / Frankfurt etc.
In the chart, dark blue is existing, light blue is newbuild.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/722905/average-residential-square-meter-prices-in-eu-28-per-country/
But then that’s true of many ex PM’s. May is the same, if not worse. Brown is moderately bitter
The happiest ex PM seems to be Blair. Maybe his naturally sunny disposition
I went with as friend to see Jerusalem yesterday (https://www.timeout.com/london/theatre/jerusalem-review) which is a more extreme version of the theme. The anti-hero lives his life defiantly in a caravan in the woods, dealing drugs and entertaining local people in dead-end jobs with riotous, drunken, stoned, sweary parties (he makes Leon's posts sound like conversation at a vicarage teaparty). The local council wants to built new houses on the site, so superfically he's a sturdy Brit standing up to bossy bureaucrats. As the play evolves, you come to see both sides - he's free in a sense that everyone else in the play is not, but also very much alone. It's not a political play and there are no Brexit morality tales either way, but it's much more thoughtful than it appears.
We see this now with Pride where it starts at the end of May and doesn't end until about a week or two into July.
It used to be a big march and a party on one Saturday in June, and all the more distinctive for it.
Edit: whoops, was replying to your other post about my prejudices!
Chapeau.
Yet you claim Brown didn't overspend. 🤣
Is this what sobriety is like? What happens when you run out of things to tidy?
It's sadly not the case off the pitch.
It does no harm for supporters to see the same people they grew up with make a demonstrable anti racist gesture.
And if you're going to talk about the BLM movement then I defy you to find more than 26 people, six of whom are on PB, who know or care about the details and whether it's Marxist or Statist or some other ist.
My point, however, is that a couple of posters (CR and BartyR in particular) are so emotionally invested in Brexit they can no longer even begin to understand those people who think it was a huge mistake
I might even write a letter to Truss in green ink suggesting that. It's no more crackpot than her not tax and spend it anyway wheeze, after all.
Brexit is like root canal treatment?
And I don't think you should read too much into the opinion polls. Essentially people who rejected Brexit largely still do, but not all want to reverse it. Essentially most people who backed Brexit largely still do, but some now say "don't know" instead. Besides which opinion polls should always be taken with a pinch of salt anyway, but it's really much of a muchness that should be ignored.
I realise this post may get me into trouble with the moderators but it's been on my mind all day so here goes:
This morning the Daily Express ran a ComRes poll which it commissioned showing Truss with a 38-37 lead over Starmer on the question of who would be the better Prime Minister. We know the Daily Express, having been huge fans of Johnson, have turned on Sunak with a vengeance and now back Truss so this result has been splashed all over their front page as "evidence" Truss can win an election.
Let's go back to June 2019 and who remembers this polling gem also from ComRes:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7132117/amp/Boris-Johnson-Labour-sword-general-election-win-140-majority.html
I'm citing the Daily Mail quote because the original Telegraph piece is firewalled but the poll was commissioned by the Telegraph who at that time employed Johnson as a columnist and were his staunchest supporters.
So that's two polls from the same pollster pretty much, if I'm being honest, providing the answers the organisation commissioning the poll would have wanted.
Now, in lieu of data tables and independent scrutiny, I'm left to ask myself whether polling organisations are as independent as we are told or whether he who commissions the poll gets the results they want.
I would further argue such polling undoubtedly has huge influence on the outcome of any election. There's little doubt the ComRes polling of June 2019 won the leadership election for Johnson - he was going to win a 140 seat majority for the Conservatives winning 395 seats at the election (he underachieved a little on that of course). From that point on, as the only candidate seemingly able to win a majority, Johnson was going to win the election.
Now, we have a poll showing Truss narrowly ahead of Starmer - Sunak still trails Starmer by the way - and that's published in a pro-Truss newspaper having been commissioned by that newspaper.
I'm not accusing anybody of anything but it stinks more than Beckton civic amenity site on a hot summer's afternoon. Newspapers commissioning supine pollsters to produce poll results confirming the bias or view of the newspaper - I'm not suggesting that is happening or has happened but I'm left to wonder.
To what extent should the British Polling Council perhaps impose its own embargo on this kind of newspaper-commissioned polling - the integrity of polling and pollsters comes into question when it seems, I'm sure purely coincidentally, the person commissioning the poll is getting the result they want rather than another result.
All well and good.
The problem is with the dolts who don't understand that we decided to join the club and decided to leave it; at all times we were in control of our destiny. Call it sovereignty. They, poor saps, think that we somehow weren't sovereign while we were a member.
As to the rules we became fed up with I'm guessing a very small percentage of people knew what they were.
If asked about the question by some inquisitive British journalist, they should have said simply that it was a question for the British people to decide. And stuck to that.
Not great results for either in this poll but does seem Truss has gained ground on Sunak with all voters
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1550797957762617344?s=20&t=KmCtL31Gr4-hUO-P3-Gkwg
If you don’t care about or understand sovereignty or democracy, but you are a small wine trader shipping in claret and Barolo, my God you will HATE Brexit
But we voted Leave. So they will just have to cope, as eurosceptics coped with the slow, awful, remorseless erosion of our sovereignty - without consent - from 1973-2016
Er, asking for a friend....
If it's open season on pollcos I am much more interested in how much tax was paid on Zahawi's dad's Gibraltarian mate's Youguv shareholding.
As Michel Barnier put it as he took on the job of Brexit negotiator, ‘I will count myself a success if, at the end, the British wish they’d never voted Leave’. He did quite well on his own terms
Feels like a new intellectual divide is emerging in the UK, between “growth optimists” who see the country’s dire economic state as a failure of domestic policy, and “pessimists” who see it as largely a result of demographics and int’l trends (+ Brexit). Crosses left/right lines.
https://twitter.com/s8mb/status/1550871041312002049
Which won't be solved by another Tory optimist.
https://news.sky.com/story/strawberries-being-sold-at-a-reduced-price-after-heatwave-leaves-farmers-with-an-abundance-of-crops-12656834
"Farmers are selling strawberries and cherries at a reduced price after the heatwave left them with a glut of "perfectly healthy, extra sweet" crops.
The extra sunshine led to a growth spurt for both fruits across the country including in Kent, Norfolk, Lancashire, Scotland and Herefordshire."
There might be more I've missed.
But it doesn't smell like a warm dog turd on a sun-kissed pavement the way weed does. So there's that.
Of course hash brownies or whatever presumably don't smell of anything. But then you're back to calories.
Normally when people attempt this they misfire. Their analogy is shallow or silly or done mainly for comedy value.
But this one landed. That's why I gave it a like.
Of course for Leavers that took four decades to bear fruit, and even then only narrowly and only after the Remain side seized every opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.
So good luck with the next three and a half decades of being miserable and angry if that is the plan.
So for example let’s say on the issue of freedom of movement before Brexit .
Freedom of movement allows EU nationals to move to the UK . Do you support this ?
Freedom of movement allows EU nationals to move to the UK . It also allows UK nationals to move to EU countries . Do you support this ?
The support for the second would be higher.
And yet I doubt you really have the fortitude for a campaign lasting 41 years
I think it's already on the way out because I don't feel as feverish as yesterday but I still get out of breath walking upstairs. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be gone. This is worse than the version I got in December but not as bad as the March 2020 vintage.
Kansas City Star - Fist pumper to fleeing coward: Jan. 6 video shows Missouri who Josh Hawley really is
Josh Hawley is a laughingstock. During Thursday night’s televised hearings of the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, coup attempt at the U.S. Capitol, Rep. Elaine Luria showed video of Missouri’s junior senator that will surely follow him the rest of his life. In the clip, Hawley sprints across a hallway as he and his fellow senators are evacuated after insurrectionists had breached the Capitol building. When it played on the screen, the audience in the room with the committee erupted in laughter.
Of course, Twitter immediately dogpiled. Hawley’s name was the No. 1 trending topic in politics that evening as users shared the hashtag #HawlinAss along with GIFs of a galloping Forrest Gump. “From now on, if political reporters ask Josh Hawley if he’s planning to run, he’s going to have to ask them to clarify,” quipped one.
Hawley has become one of the defining figures of that day. A famous photo captured by Francis Chung shows him raising a fist in solidarity with the crowds that would soon break through doors, loot offices and assault law enforcement. Luria quoted a Capitol Police officer who was there and told the committee that Hawley’s gesture “riled up the crowd, and it bothered her greatly because he was doing it in a safe space protected by the officers and the barriers.” And later, when the Senate reconvened after the halls of the Capitol had been cleared and secured, Hawley took to the floor as the very first voice calling to throw out millions of Americans’ votes cast fairly and legally for the rightful winner in a presidential election. And never forget: He was joined in his campaign to discard ballots by Kansas Sen. Roger Marshall.
A signature Hawley issue is masculinity — as in, how little of it American men seem to have these days. It’s a frequent topic in his speeches and on his podcast, where “the left-wing attack on manhood” is a dire threat to our society. Regnery Publishing is set to release his book “Manhood: The Masculine Virtues America Needs” next year. Twitter didn’t see much virile bravado as he ran from the mob. . . .
https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/editorials/article263718073.html
SSI - Senator gives whole new perspective to very old concept of "Hawleying ass".
During the Parliamentary debates on leaving, compromise and general niceness was the ally of pro-EU types. Division was the advantage of those who wanted a starker departure.
Men convinced of their own cleverness like Dominic Grieve shot themselves in the foot when they got precisely what they damned* but threw their toys out of the pram and voted against the proposal anyway.
The major clue (and I said it at the time, as did many others) was when they marched through the lobbies with arch-sceptics. Somebody was buggering up their voting, and for all the derision aimed at Leavers at least they actually voted for what they wanted.
The pro-EU side ended up nobbling every compromise and then the deal of May, presumably on the insane basis any replacement for May would end up somehow being more pro-EU than her.
Inclusivity, compromise, these are the allies of the pro-EU sentiment. Together we're stronger than apart, brotherhood of man type stuff. Focusing on the advantages of the EU (as they should have during the incredibly inept campaign).
Edited extra bit: *an impressive typo. I meant 'demanded'.
Always sovereign.
The Treasury does what the Chancellor tells them to.
If they're astonished to discover it was all wrong, then that it took them 12 years is proof of incompetence.
Though if it takes "generosity" for us to exercise our sovereignty then how sovereign were we?
Personally I find the whole thing pretty funny most of the time, it is such a gigantic clusterfuck. I feel sorry for the people whose livelihoods have been damaged or whose lives have been turned upside down of course. But miserable and angry doesn't really capture my mood.
First poll of the weekend in the mail is a deltapoll, first since April. It has truss beating sunak 26 to 24 best PM but boris beating both on 33 and headline figs only the 3 main uk parties mentioned 42 (-1) 31(-1) 10(+1) changes from April 14th
She isn't planning some massive slash and burn of the state, but rather revering to the tax rates of all of 12 months ago. Oh, the horrors!
They do not have the intellectual bandwidth to accept they lost and the world has moved on. So they stay rooted to 2016.
Following the rules of a club you decide to join is not giving up sovereignty. Any more than the trade agreement we did with Australia recently is giving up sovereignty.
Did it mean we could join the club and then not follow the rules of course it didn't. But as a sovereign nation who chose to join the club we were happy to follow those rules. Until we were not.
If you define sovereignty as not agreeing to certain rules with anyone then North Korea is your ideal state. Is it?
It was persistent low growth.
If he cannot overcome a candidate with Truss's flaws, it tells its own story - it's not as though the members are uncapable of liking hin, they use to do so after all.
We'll see if I survive mingling with the masses at Farnborough this week.
My business partner has now had it twice in a fortnight.
I think Johnson and Cummings admitted the claim was a lie anyway didn't they? One of their oh-so-clever dead cat things, that if you misstate the figure it keeps people talking about it for longer. And of course the whole disgusting NHS fallacy, invented by smarmy Dave for the AV referendum, that you can't budget for different things simultaneously on their individual merits. Let's take all the money we spend on the Navy, or higher education, or astronomy, or whatever, and give every penny to the NHS because otherwise you want sick kiddies to die.