The Swinney slump doesn’t look like stopping – politicalbetting.com

DM_Andy said:

dixiedean said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

There's a Mark Steel's in Town focussing on that. Apparently, there is no agreement even in Shrewsbury.
Shroosbry, Shrowsbry and Shoosbry are all used.

The Welsh should take it back and then everyone can call it Amwythig.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

DM_Andy said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

MJW said:

noneoftheabove said:

Ghedebrav said:

Scott_xP said:

@Samfr

This morning's YouGov for people under 50 only:

Labour 59%
Greens 12%
Cons 8%
Reform 8%
LD 6%

That's the worst result amongst this age group I've see yet. Equal third with Reform.

Kind of astonishing - and I think leads to an IRL echo chamber as well as a virtual one, where working age people are very broadly anti-conservative, with pretty much 5/6 being LLG and probably leading to an assumption therefore that 'everyone' is voting the Tories out, from conversations over lunch breaks, pub after work and whatnot. Suspect a fair few people will end up being astonished that their seat has stayed blue come the 5th July.

Young (and other under 50) people are not anti-conservative, they are anti this chaotic government, its attacks on young people economically and its involvement in the culture wars. In many ways they are quite conservative, hard working, entrepreneurial, healthier lifestyles and wanting to conserve our environment.

Exactly. Among my peers the noticeable thing is not that there's an echo chamber of left-wing opinion but that those who in theory should be voting Tory or persuadable - good job, family, mortgage - are absolutely dead against them and would not be seen dead voting for them. Anecdotal, of course, but have quite broad acquaintances and am in a traditionally Tory bit of the country near London.

The polls bear that out. As for the reasons, it's economics (even those who have done well feel hard pressed, will have battled through high rents and static pay and have friends worse off) combined with image.

Brexit has obviously shifted to the back burner as an issue, but it's a key inflection point where a lot of younger (now getting on for middle aged) people who might have been tempted into the Tory camp in the past for financial reasons and to be left alone, thought "OK, this party really doesn't like me and my values". And the culture war stuff since and endless attempts to "own the libs" and slag off the young has crystalised that.

As people used to say with Corbyn, if you look like you hate the country, don't expect it to vote for you. At the moment the Tories look like they hate anyone Under 50 who is more liberal than the Daily Mail comments section.

So don't expect them to vote for you - and that doesn't just include 'woke' students but management consultants who would normally be quite right-wing on policy, but won't vote for a party who sound like they want to turn Britain into a 1950s theme park.

Hello hello hello hello hello hello hello. Sorry just slipped into your echo chamber chamber chamber.

There is polling evidence for the Brexit issue, it's dropped in salience according to the trends in the YouGov "what are the top three issues" question, but it's dropped much more among Leave voters than Remain voters. From memory 9% of Leavers think it's one of the top three, 29% of Remainers do. That could lead to Leave voters feeling that Brexit's a done thing and moving on to vote on a wider range of issues and some Remain voters still feeling hurt over the referendum vote and not touching the Tories with a bargepole.

I am probably going against the general flow, but I voted LD in the last two GEs because of Brexit. I won't be this time because I believe Ed Davy knew a lot more about the PO scandal than he and his supporters claim, and I am genuinely terrified of a Labour landslide. I don't like the Tories as they are now, but the Labour Party is the party of the public sector and nothing else ( as for the 150 signatures of the so-called business people/useful idiots, this should be put in context of there being four million limited companies in UK - do the maths!)

So you'll be voting for the party that eventually knew a lot more about the PO scandal than Ed Davey ever did, and yet for a decade connived to try and put the issue and compensation into the long grass until ITV made it into prime TV news this year.

Both major parties knew lots and shame on them. Only one party has a party leader who was PO minister for two years and has weaselled his way out of scrutiny. I suspect he probably coached Vennells.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

I am generally quite relaxed about how other people speak but there are two things that infuriate me: one is the inappropriate use of "myself", "yourself" etc, and the other is references to percentages greater than 100 in phrases such "I gave 110%". People who do this should be killed in some cruel and unusual fashion.

Carnyx said:

dixiedean said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

The former seems much rarer these days than it used to be. I’ve seen more people vomit or have sex (not at the same time) on public transport than play music out loud.”, in recent times.

The latter, like the poor, will always be with us.

I guess they could vomit and have sex at the same time, depends what they are up to.

Rule 34 applies.

ydoethur said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

That's the Irish pronunciation because of the 'hidden vowel rules.'

So you've just said Irish people are morons...

And Geordies.

And Gaelic-influenced Scots Highlanders and Islanders.

Ghedebrav said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

Is that not the right way to say it? I’d learnt that ‘Shrowsbury’ was a bit of an affectation and not actually how locals say it.

Btw my great-nan was a spiritualist and was a noted seance leader and whatnot, travelling up and down the country. My understanding is that she genuinely believed in it all, though tbh who knows - some recent family history undertaken by my great-uncle has uncovered that there’s a strong fantasist streak in my lineage (I prefer to think I’ve inherited my dad’s side’s downrightness).

Carnyx said:

Taz said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Can we have jail time for PB posters who get upset by the way other people talk, eat, listen to music or any other activity that they personally don't like?

As long as I don't have to share the cell with anyone who does any of those things, so be it.

Those discussions can be very revealing of how other people live/think/have learnt in life.

I remember someone on PB getting very upset by a lady calling her little girl Elspeth on the assumption that it was some sort of pretentious neologism (a reason which, in itself, I could sometimes sympathise with if it were true).

Which considerably surprised anyone from Scotland, N England, etc. etc. But that was a very benign example compared to many others on here.

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

DM_Andy said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

MJW said:

noneoftheabove said:

Ghedebrav said:

Scott_xP said:

@Samfr

This morning's YouGov for people under 50 only:

Labour 59%
Greens 12%
Cons 8%
Reform 8%
LD 6%

That's the worst result amongst this age group I've see yet. Equal third with Reform.

Kind of astonishing - and I think leads to an IRL echo chamber as well as a virtual one, where working age people are very broadly anti-conservative, with pretty much 5/6 being LLG and probably leading to an assumption therefore that 'everyone' is voting the Tories out, from conversations over lunch breaks, pub after work and whatnot. Suspect a fair few people will end up being astonished that their seat has stayed blue come the 5th July.

Young (and other under 50) people are not anti-conservative, they are anti this chaotic government, its attacks on young people economically and its involvement in the culture wars. In many ways they are quite conservative, hard working, entrepreneurial, healthier lifestyles and wanting to conserve our environment.

Exactly. Among my peers the noticeable thing is not that there's an echo chamber of left-wing opinion but that those who in theory should be voting Tory or persuadable - good job, family, mortgage - are absolutely dead against them and would not be seen dead voting for them. Anecdotal, of course, but have quite broad acquaintances and am in a traditionally Tory bit of the country near London.

The polls bear that out. As for the reasons, it's economics (even those who have done well feel hard pressed, will have battled through high rents and static pay and have friends worse off) combined with image.

Brexit has obviously shifted to the back burner as an issue, but it's a key inflection point where a lot of younger (now getting on for middle aged) people who might have been tempted into the Tory camp in the past for financial reasons and to be left alone, thought "OK, this party really doesn't like me and my values". And the culture war stuff since and endless attempts to "own the libs" and slag off the young has crystalised that.

As people used to say with Corbyn, if you look like you hate the country, don't expect it to vote for you. At the moment the Tories look like they hate anyone Under 50 who is more liberal than the Daily Mail comments section.

So don't expect them to vote for you - and that doesn't just include 'woke' students but management consultants who would normally be quite right-wing on policy, but won't vote for a party who sound like they want to turn Britain into a 1950s theme park.

Hello hello hello hello hello hello hello. Sorry just slipped into your echo chamber chamber chamber.

There is polling evidence for the Brexit issue, it's dropped in salience according to the trends in the YouGov "what are the top three issues" question, but it's dropped much more among Leave voters than Remain voters. From memory 9% of Leavers think it's one of the top three, 29% of Remainers do. That could lead to Leave voters feeling that Brexit's a done thing and moving on to vote on a wider range of issues and some Remain voters still feeling hurt over the referendum vote and not touching the Tories with a bargepole.

I am probably going against the general flow, but I voted LD in the last two GEs because of Brexit. I won't be this time because I believe Ed Davy knew a lot more about the PO scandal than he and his supporters claim, and I am genuinely terrified of a Labour landslide. I don't like the Tories as they are now, but the Labour Party is the party of the public sector and nothing else ( as for the 150 signatures of the so-called business people/useful idiots, this should be put in context of there being four million limited companies in UK - do the maths!)

So you'll be voting for the party that eventually knew a lot more about the PO scandal than Ed Davey ever did, and yet for a decade connived to try and put the issue and compensation into the long grass until ITV made it into prime TV news this year.

Both major parties knew lots and shame on them. Only one party has a party leader who was PO minister for two years and has weaselled his way out of scrutiny. I suspect he probably coached Vennells.

Question. You say Davey has "weaselled his way out of scrutiny". The opposite is true. He has had all the scrutiny, and has accounted for his actions.

Where is the scrutiny on Badenoch? Or on any of the previous Tory ministers? Where is their accountability? Or their apology?

Just so we're clear, your reaction to the Post Office outrage is that you are going to vote for the party who have been solely in government covering this up for 9 years, who have issued zero apology for their personal actions, who gave Vennels a CBE, who have done everything they can not to accept there is an issue, who have delayed and delayed and delayed paying any compensation to the victims?

You're voting Tory in outrage of the PO scandal? Just so we're clear.

Nigel_Foremain said:

TimS said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

DM_Andy said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

MJW said:

noneoftheabove said:

Ghedebrav said:

Scott_xP said:

@Samfr

This morning's YouGov for people under 50 only:

Labour 59%
Greens 12%
Cons 8%
Reform 8%
LD 6%

That's the worst result amongst this age group I've see yet. Equal third with Reform.

Kind of astonishing - and I think leads to an IRL echo chamber as well as a virtual one, where working age people are very broadly anti-conservative, with pretty much 5/6 being LLG and probably leading to an assumption therefore that 'everyone' is voting the Tories out, from conversations over lunch breaks, pub after work and whatnot. Suspect a fair few people will end up being astonished that their seat has stayed blue come the 5th July.

Young (and other under 50) people are not anti-conservative, they are anti this chaotic government, its attacks on young people economically and its involvement in the culture wars. In many ways they are quite conservative, hard working, entrepreneurial, healthier lifestyles and wanting to conserve our environment.

Exactly. Among my peers the noticeable thing is not that there's an echo chamber of left-wing opinion but that those who in theory should be voting Tory or persuadable - good job, family, mortgage - are absolutely dead against them and would not be seen dead voting for them. Anecdotal, of course, but have quite broad acquaintances and am in a traditionally Tory bit of the country near London.

The polls bear that out. As for the reasons, it's economics (even those who have done well feel hard pressed, will have battled through high rents and static pay and have friends worse off) combined with image.

Brexit has obviously shifted to the back burner as an issue, but it's a key inflection point where a lot of younger (now getting on for middle aged) people who might have been tempted into the Tory camp in the past for financial reasons and to be left alone, thought "OK, this party really doesn't like me and my values". And the culture war stuff since and endless attempts to "own the libs" and slag off the young has crystalised that.

As people used to say with Corbyn, if you look like you hate the country, don't expect it to vote for you. At the moment the Tories look like they hate anyone Under 50 who is more liberal than the Daily Mail comments section.

So don't expect them to vote for you - and that doesn't just include 'woke' students but management consultants who would normally be quite right-wing on policy, but won't vote for a party who sound like they want to turn Britain into a 1950s theme park.

Hello hello hello hello hello hello hello. Sorry just slipped into your echo chamber chamber chamber.

There is polling evidence for the Brexit issue, it's dropped in salience according to the trends in the YouGov "what are the top three issues" question, but it's dropped much more among Leave voters than Remain voters. From memory 9% of Leavers think it's one of the top three, 29% of Remainers do. That could lead to Leave voters feeling that Brexit's a done thing and moving on to vote on a wider range of issues and some Remain voters still feeling hurt over the referendum vote and not touching the Tories with a bargepole.

I am probably going against the general flow, but I voted LD in the last two GEs because of Brexit. I won't be this time because I believe Ed Davy knew a lot more about the PO scandal than he and his supporters claim, and I am genuinely terrified of a Labour landslide. I don't like the Tories as they are now, but the Labour Party is the party of the public sector and nothing else ( as for the 150 signatures of the so-called business people/useful idiots, this should be put in context of there being four million limited companies in UK - do the maths!)

So you'll be voting for the party that eventually knew a lot more about the PO scandal than Ed Davey ever did, and yet for a decade connived to try and put the issue and compensation into the long grass until ITV made it into prime TV news this year.

The Tories really have been genius at sticking all the blame for the PO scandal on Davey. They’ve failed completely to do a similar job on Keir for having beer and curry or Angela dodging CGT, but this is one of their undoubted blame-deflection successes.

It isn't Tories you numpty, it is fact. He was PO minister ffs. He is now the leader of a major party and he has either lied or is incompetent (along with other PO ministers). If he (and his successors as ministers) didn't think that it was odd that PO sub postmasters had a percentage of criminality much much higher than the rest of the population then he is quite frankly a fecking idiot. Either that or a lazy incompetent, or was ok to go along with the conspiracy to protect the glorious institution that is our wonderful Post Office.

He knew and his successors did. He did nothing about it therefore he is an absolute fucking disgrace.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

kamski said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

I am generally quite relaxed about how other people speak but there are two things that infuriate me: one is the inappropriate use of "myself", "yourself" etc, and the other is references to percentages greater than 100 in phrases such "I gave 110%". People who do this should be killed in some cruel and unusual fashion.

Why don't you like "I gave 110%"?

It's meaningless. If you gave 110% then what is the denominator in this fraction?

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

DM_Andy said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

MJW said:

noneoftheabove said:

Ghedebrav said:

Scott_xP said:

@Samfr

This morning's YouGov for people under 50 only:

Labour 59%
Greens 12%
Cons 8%
Reform 8%
LD 6%

That's the worst result amongst this age group I've see yet. Equal third with Reform.

Kind of astonishing - and I think leads to an IRL echo chamber as well as a virtual one, where working age people are very broadly anti-conservative, with pretty much 5/6 being LLG and probably leading to an assumption therefore that 'everyone' is voting the Tories out, from conversations over lunch breaks, pub after work and whatnot. Suspect a fair few people will end up being astonished that their seat has stayed blue come the 5th July.

Young (and other under 50) people are not anti-conservative, they are anti this chaotic government, its attacks on young people economically and its involvement in the culture wars. In many ways they are quite conservative, hard working, entrepreneurial, healthier lifestyles and wanting to conserve our environment.

Exactly. Among my peers the noticeable thing is not that there's an echo chamber of left-wing opinion but that those who in theory should be voting Tory or persuadable - good job, family, mortgage - are absolutely dead against them and would not be seen dead voting for them. Anecdotal, of course, but have quite broad acquaintances and am in a traditionally Tory bit of the country near London.

The polls bear that out. As for the reasons, it's economics (even those who have done well feel hard pressed, will have battled through high rents and static pay and have friends worse off) combined with image.

Brexit has obviously shifted to the back burner as an issue, but it's a key inflection point where a lot of younger (now getting on for middle aged) people who might have been tempted into the Tory camp in the past for financial reasons and to be left alone, thought "OK, this party really doesn't like me and my values". And the culture war stuff since and endless attempts to "own the libs" and slag off the young has crystalised that.

As people used to say with Corbyn, if you look like you hate the country, don't expect it to vote for you. At the moment the Tories look like they hate anyone Under 50 who is more liberal than the Daily Mail comments section.

So don't expect them to vote for you - and that doesn't just include 'woke' students but management consultants who would normally be quite right-wing on policy, but won't vote for a party who sound like they want to turn Britain into a 1950s theme park.

Hello hello hello hello hello hello hello. Sorry just slipped into your echo chamber chamber chamber.

There is polling evidence for the Brexit issue, it's dropped in salience according to the trends in the YouGov "what are the top three issues" question, but it's dropped much more among Leave voters than Remain voters. From memory 9% of Leavers think it's one of the top three, 29% of Remainers do. That could lead to Leave voters feeling that Brexit's a done thing and moving on to vote on a wider range of issues and some Remain voters still feeling hurt over the referendum vote and not touching the Tories with a bargepole.

I am probably going against the general flow, but I voted LD in the last two GEs because of Brexit. I won't be this time because I believe Ed Davy knew a lot more about the PO scandal than he and his supporters claim, and I am genuinely terrified of a Labour landslide. I don't like the Tories as they are now, but the Labour Party is the party of the public sector and nothing else ( as for the 150 signatures of the so-called business people/useful idiots, this should be put in context of there being four million limited companies in UK - do the maths!)

So you'll be voting for the party that eventually knew a lot more about the PO scandal than Ed Davey ever did, and yet for a decade connived to try and put the issue and compensation into the long grass until ITV made it into prime TV news this year.

Both major parties knew lots and shame on them. Only one party has a party leader who was PO minister for two years and has weaselled his way out of scrutiny. I suspect he probably coached Vennells.

Question. You say Davey has "weaselled his way out of scrutiny". The opposite is true. He has had all the scrutiny, and has accounted for his actions.

DM_Andy said:

Cookie said:

Ghedebrav said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

Is that not the right way to say it? I’d learnt that ‘Shrowsbury’ was a bit of an affectation and not actually how locals say it.

Btw my great-nan was a spiritualist and was a noted seance leader and whatnot, travelling up and down the country. My understanding is that she genuinely believed in it all, though tbh who knows - some recent family history undertaken by my great-uncle has uncovered that there’s a strong fantasist streak in my lineage (I prefer to think I’ve inherited my dad’s side’s downrightness).

Similarly, Southwell in Nottinghamshire. Which is pronounced Suth'll by people from Nottinghamshire. Apart from by people from Southwell, who almost overenunciate South-well.

Place names are a complete minefield, like with Wymondham, Norfolk being Wind'em and Wymondham, Leicestershire being Why-mond-ham (hattip to Andrew at Britain Elects for that factoid)

Taz said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

DM_Andy said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

MJW said:

noneoftheabove said:

Ghedebrav said:

Scott_xP said:

@Samfr

This morning's YouGov for people under 50 only:

Labour 59%
Greens 12%
Cons 8%
Reform 8%
LD 6%

That's the worst result amongst this age group I've see yet. Equal third with Reform.

Kind of astonishing - and I think leads to an IRL echo chamber as well as a virtual one, where working age people are very broadly anti-conservative, with pretty much 5/6 being LLG and probably leading to an assumption therefore that 'everyone' is voting the Tories out, from conversations over lunch breaks, pub after work and whatnot. Suspect a fair few people will end up being astonished that their seat has stayed blue come the 5th July.

Young (and other under 50) people are not anti-conservative, they are anti this chaotic government, its attacks on young people economically and its involvement in the culture wars. In many ways they are quite conservative, hard working, entrepreneurial, healthier lifestyles and wanting to conserve our environment.

Exactly. Among my peers the noticeable thing is not that there's an echo chamber of left-wing opinion but that those who in theory should be voting Tory or persuadable - good job, family, mortgage - are absolutely dead against them and would not be seen dead voting for them. Anecdotal, of course, but have quite broad acquaintances and am in a traditionally Tory bit of the country near London.

The polls bear that out. As for the reasons, it's economics (even those who have done well feel hard pressed, will have battled through high rents and static pay and have friends worse off) combined with image.

Brexit has obviously shifted to the back burner as an issue, but it's a key inflection point where a lot of younger (now getting on for middle aged) people who might have been tempted into the Tory camp in the past for financial reasons and to be left alone, thought "OK, this party really doesn't like me and my values". And the culture war stuff since and endless attempts to "own the libs" and slag off the young has crystalised that.

As people used to say with Corbyn, if you look like you hate the country, don't expect it to vote for you. At the moment the Tories look like they hate anyone Under 50 who is more liberal than the Daily Mail comments section.

So don't expect them to vote for you - and that doesn't just include 'woke' students but management consultants who would normally be quite right-wing on policy, but won't vote for a party who sound like they want to turn Britain into a 1950s theme park.

Hello hello hello hello hello hello hello. Sorry just slipped into your echo chamber chamber chamber.

There is polling evidence for the Brexit issue, it's dropped in salience according to the trends in the YouGov "what are the top three issues" question, but it's dropped much more among Leave voters than Remain voters. From memory 9% of Leavers think it's one of the top three, 29% of Remainers do. That could lead to Leave voters feeling that Brexit's a done thing and moving on to vote on a wider range of issues and some Remain voters still feeling hurt over the referendum vote and not touching the Tories with a bargepole.

I am probably going against the general flow, but I voted LD in the last two GEs because of Brexit. I won't be this time because I believe Ed Davy knew a lot more about the PO scandal than he and his supporters claim, and I am genuinely terrified of a Labour landslide. I don't like the Tories as they are now, but the Labour Party is the party of the public sector and nothing else ( as for the 150 signatures of the so-called business people/useful idiots, this should be put in context of there being four million limited companies in UK - do the maths!)

So you'll be voting for the party that eventually knew a lot more about the PO scandal than Ed Davey ever did, and yet for a decade connived to try and put the issue and compensation into the long grass until ITV made it into prime TV news this year.

Both major parties knew lots and shame on them. Only one party has a party leader who was PO minister for two years and has weaselled his way out of scrutiny. I suspect he probably coached Vennells.

Question. You say Davey has "weaselled his way out of scrutiny". The opposite is true. He has had all the scrutiny, and has accounted for his actions.

Lib Dem parliamentary candidate thinks Lib Dem Leader is beyond reproach.

Well that's a shock !!!!!

DM_Andy said:

Cookie said:

Ghedebrav said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

Is that not the right way to say it? I’d learnt that ‘Shrowsbury’ was a bit of an affectation and not actually how locals say it.

Btw my great-nan was a spiritualist and was a noted seance leader and whatnot, travelling up and down the country. My understanding is that she genuinely believed in it all, though tbh who knows - some recent family history undertaken by my great-uncle has uncovered that there’s a strong fantasist streak in my lineage (I prefer to think I’ve inherited my dad’s side’s downrightness).

Similarly, Southwell in Nottinghamshire. Which is pronounced Suth'll by people from Nottinghamshire. Apart from by people from Southwell, who almost overenunciate South-well.

Place names are a complete minefield, like with Wymondham, Norfolk being Wind'em and Wymondham, Leicestershire being Why-mond-ham (hattip to Andrew at Britain Elects for that factoid)

bondegezou said:

“SNP Westminster leader Stephen Flynn has insisted his party can retain all of its Scottish seats at Westminster – and even win more.”

Ha ha ha ha ha

ClippP said:

OldKingCole said:

LostPassword said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

LostPassword said:

Selebian said:

wooliedyed said:

https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1795756701460668561?s=19

Meanwhile over at silly old twit central........

Missed opportunity that. He should have ridden straight through a cardboard box 'blue wall' like a low-budget Boris Johnson.

The LD activists in his path showing great optimism and courage though, in apparently believing him competent enough on a bike to keep them safe

He does have better balance on the bike than on the paddle board. It even looks like he might have ridden on a bicycle before.

Should we expect to see Davey on every form of human-powered transport during the election campaign? Do we need to prepare bingo sheets with scooter, skateboard, rowing boat, etc?

Sunak dribbling past cones, Starmer cooking salmon, Davey riding a bike. Who gets your vote?

If we see Davey in one of these, then I will research the Lib Dem candidate standing in my constituency and give them serious considerations.

Starmer would have to get to serious chocolate gateau levels to stay in the competition.

At least Davey looks cheerful about it all.

Being a Lib Dem is fun.....

Cookie said:

Ghedebrav said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

Is that not the right way to say it? I’d learnt that ‘Shrowsbury’ was a bit of an affectation and not actually how locals say it.

Btw my great-nan was a spiritualist and was a noted seance leader and whatnot, travelling up and down the country. My understanding is that she genuinely believed in it all, though tbh who knows - some recent family history undertaken by my great-uncle has uncovered that there’s a strong fantasist streak in my lineage (I prefer to think I’ve inherited my dad’s side’s downrightness).

Similarly, Southwell in Nottinghamshire. Which is pronounced Suth'll by people from Nottinghamshire. Apart from by people from Southwell, who almost overenunciate South-well.

CarlottaVance said:

My pet linguistic peeve is introducing management speak into everyday conversation…..to my horror I once found myself saying “Mother, that’s not actionable….”

Peter_the_Punter said:

Taz said:

DM_Andy said:

Cookie said:

Ghedebrav said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

Is that not the right way to say it? I’d learnt that ‘Shrowsbury’ was a bit of an affectation and not actually how locals say it.

Btw my great-nan was a spiritualist and was a noted seance leader and whatnot, travelling up and down the country. My understanding is that she genuinely believed in it all, though tbh who knows - some recent family history undertaken by my great-uncle has uncovered that there’s a strong fantasist streak in my lineage (I prefer to think I’ve inherited my dad’s side’s downrightness).

Similarly, Southwell in Nottinghamshire. Which is pronounced Suth'll by people from Nottinghamshire. Apart from by people from Southwell, who almost overenunciate South-well.

Place names are a complete minefield, like with Wymondham, Norfolk being Wind'em and Wymondham, Leicestershire being Why-mond-ham (hattip to Andrew at Britain Elects for that factoid)

Rugeley in Staffs is pronounced Rudge-lee for some reason, Houghton-Le-Spring is pronounced Horton-Le-Spring by locals of my acquantance. Bizarre.

Any idea how the good people of Essex pronounce Ugley?

GIN1138 said:

williamglenn said:

Jess Phillips calls for Truss to be deselected.

https://x.com/jessphillips/status/1795744506664689920

Might be convenient for the Tories to get rid of Truss now, while they have the chance...

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

DM_Andy said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

MJW said:

noneoftheabove said:

Ghedebrav said:

Scott_xP said:

@Samfr

This morning's YouGov for people under 50 only:

Labour 59%
Greens 12%
Cons 8%
Reform 8%
LD 6%

That's the worst result amongst this age group I've see yet. Equal third with Reform.

Kind of astonishing - and I think leads to an IRL echo chamber as well as a virtual one, where working age people are very broadly anti-conservative, with pretty much 5/6 being LLG and probably leading to an assumption therefore that 'everyone' is voting the Tories out, from conversations over lunch breaks, pub after work and whatnot. Suspect a fair few people will end up being astonished that their seat has stayed blue come the 5th July.

Young (and other under 50) people are not anti-conservative, they are anti this chaotic government, its attacks on young people economically and its involvement in the culture wars. In many ways they are quite conservative, hard working, entrepreneurial, healthier lifestyles and wanting to conserve our environment.

Exactly. Among my peers the noticeable thing is not that there's an echo chamber of left-wing opinion but that those who in theory should be voting Tory or persuadable - good job, family, mortgage - are absolutely dead against them and would not be seen dead voting for them. Anecdotal, of course, but have quite broad acquaintances and am in a traditionally Tory bit of the country near London.

The polls bear that out. As for the reasons, it's economics (even those who have done well feel hard pressed, will have battled through high rents and static pay and have friends worse off) combined with image.

Brexit has obviously shifted to the back burner as an issue, but it's a key inflection point where a lot of younger (now getting on for middle aged) people who might have been tempted into the Tory camp in the past for financial reasons and to be left alone, thought "OK, this party really doesn't like me and my values". And the culture war stuff since and endless attempts to "own the libs" and slag off the young has crystalised that.

As people used to say with Corbyn, if you look like you hate the country, don't expect it to vote for you. At the moment the Tories look like they hate anyone Under 50 who is more liberal than the Daily Mail comments section.

So don't expect them to vote for you - and that doesn't just include 'woke' students but management consultants who would normally be quite right-wing on policy, but won't vote for a party who sound like they want to turn Britain into a 1950s theme park.

Hello hello hello hello hello hello hello. Sorry just slipped into your echo chamber chamber chamber.

There is polling evidence for the Brexit issue, it's dropped in salience according to the trends in the YouGov "what are the top three issues" question, but it's dropped much more among Leave voters than Remain voters. From memory 9% of Leavers think it's one of the top three, 29% of Remainers do. That could lead to Leave voters feeling that Brexit's a done thing and moving on to vote on a wider range of issues and some Remain voters still feeling hurt over the referendum vote and not touching the Tories with a bargepole.

I am probably going against the general flow, but I voted LD in the last two GEs because of Brexit. I won't be this time because I believe Ed Davy knew a lot more about the PO scandal than he and his supporters claim, and I am genuinely terrified of a Labour landslide. I don't like the Tories as they are now, but the Labour Party is the party of the public sector and nothing else ( as for the 150 signatures of the so-called business people/useful idiots, this should be put in context of there being four million limited companies in UK - do the maths!)

So you'll be voting for the party that eventually knew a lot more about the PO scandal than Ed Davey ever did, and yet for a decade connived to try and put the issue and compensation into the long grass until ITV made it into prime TV news this year.

Both major parties knew lots and shame on them. Only one party has a party leader who was PO minister for two years and has weaselled his way out of scrutiny. I suspect he probably coached Vennells.

Question. You say Davey has "weaselled his way out of scrutiny". The opposite is true. He has had all the scrutiny, and has accounted for his actions.

Where is the scrutiny on Badenoch? Or on any of the previous Tory ministers? Where is their accountability? Or their apology?

Just so we're clear, your reaction to the Post Office outrage is that you are going to vote for the party who have been solely in government covering this up for 9 years, who have issued zero apology for their personal actions, who gave Vennels a CBE, who have done everything they can not to accept there is an issue, who have delayed and delayed and delayed paying any compensation to the victims?

You're voting Tory in outrage of the PO scandal? Just so we're clear.

Quite frankly I couldn't give a flying fuck if you are clear or not as you are an apologist for Davy, but here goes an explanation: I will not vote LD this time because their leader should resign because he knew, and he is a party leader . Simple enough for you?

Your attempt to create equivalence with Badenoch is ridiculous as she is not a party leader.

I would like intense scrutiny of all of them. I would like any that are proven to have covered things up to resign their seats or possibly go to jail. I would like them to experience some of the misery that the sub postmasters have had to endure

I didn't ask whether you would vote LibDem. You are clear on that topic.

I asked if you are going to vote Tory. You - like so many of us - are very upset by the PO scandal. You have identified it as a key driver for how you will vote. So are you - as a result of your anger - going to vote Tory?

kinabalu said:

CarlottaVance said:

My pet linguistic peeve is introducing management speak into everyday conversation…..to my horror I once found myself saying “Mother, that’s not actionable….”

I went through a very annoying phase of always asking somebody to quantify their opinion on whether (or not) something would happen, ie give it a probability.

My mum: "I think Aunt Edith is coming for Christmas."
Me: "You think?"
My mum: "Well I'm not sure but she should be."
Me: "More likely than not then, is what you actually mean."
My mum: "I suppose so, yes."
Me: "How likely though? 75% 90% Can we put a number on it?"

Taz said:

DM_Andy said:

Cookie said:

Ghedebrav said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

Is that not the right way to say it? I’d learnt that ‘Shrowsbury’ was a bit of an affectation and not actually how locals say it.

Btw my great-nan was a spiritualist and was a noted seance leader and whatnot, travelling up and down the country. My understanding is that she genuinely believed in it all, though tbh who knows - some recent family history undertaken by my great-uncle has uncovered that there’s a strong fantasist streak in my lineage (I prefer to think I’ve inherited my dad’s side’s downrightness).

Similarly, Southwell in Nottinghamshire. Which is pronounced Suth'll by people from Nottinghamshire. Apart from by people from Southwell, who almost overenunciate South-well.

Place names are a complete minefield, like with Wymondham, Norfolk being Wind'em and Wymondham, Leicestershire being Why-mond-ham (hattip to Andrew at Britain Elects for that factoid)

Rugeley in Staffs is pronounced Rudge-lee for some reason, Houghton-Le-Spring is pronounced Horton-Le-Spring by locals of my acquantance. Bizarre.

kjh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

DM_Andy said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

MJW said:

noneoftheabove said:

Ghedebrav said:

Scott_xP said:

@Samfr

This morning's YouGov for people under 50 only:

Labour 59%
Greens 12%
Cons 8%
Reform 8%
LD 6%

That's the worst result amongst this age group I've see yet. Equal third with Reform.

Kind of astonishing - and I think leads to an IRL echo chamber as well as a virtual one, where working age people are very broadly anti-conservative, with pretty much 5/6 being LLG and probably leading to an assumption therefore that 'everyone' is voting the Tories out, from conversations over lunch breaks, pub after work and whatnot. Suspect a fair few people will end up being astonished that their seat has stayed blue come the 5th July.

Young (and other under 50) people are not anti-conservative, they are anti this chaotic government, its attacks on young people economically and its involvement in the culture wars. In many ways they are quite conservative, hard working, entrepreneurial, healthier lifestyles and wanting to conserve our environment.

Exactly. Among my peers the noticeable thing is not that there's an echo chamber of left-wing opinion but that those who in theory should be voting Tory or persuadable - good job, family, mortgage - are absolutely dead against them and would not be seen dead voting for them. Anecdotal, of course, but have quite broad acquaintances and am in a traditionally Tory bit of the country near London.

The polls bear that out. As for the reasons, it's economics (even those who have done well feel hard pressed, will have battled through high rents and static pay and have friends worse off) combined with image.

Brexit has obviously shifted to the back burner as an issue, but it's a key inflection point where a lot of younger (now getting on for middle aged) people who might have been tempted into the Tory camp in the past for financial reasons and to be left alone, thought "OK, this party really doesn't like me and my values". And the culture war stuff since and endless attempts to "own the libs" and slag off the young has crystalised that.

As people used to say with Corbyn, if you look like you hate the country, don't expect it to vote for you. At the moment the Tories look like they hate anyone Under 50 who is more liberal than the Daily Mail comments section.

So don't expect them to vote for you - and that doesn't just include 'woke' students but management consultants who would normally be quite right-wing on policy, but won't vote for a party who sound like they want to turn Britain into a 1950s theme park.

Hello hello hello hello hello hello hello. Sorry just slipped into your echo chamber chamber chamber.

There is polling evidence for the Brexit issue, it's dropped in salience according to the trends in the YouGov "what are the top three issues" question, but it's dropped much more among Leave voters than Remain voters. From memory 9% of Leavers think it's one of the top three, 29% of Remainers do. That could lead to Leave voters feeling that Brexit's a done thing and moving on to vote on a wider range of issues and some Remain voters still feeling hurt over the referendum vote and not touching the Tories with a bargepole.

I am probably going against the general flow, but I voted LD in the last two GEs because of Brexit. I won't be this time because I believe Ed Davy knew a lot more about the PO scandal than he and his supporters claim, and I am genuinely terrified of a Labour landslide. I don't like the Tories as they are now, but the Labour Party is the party of the public sector and nothing else ( as for the 150 signatures of the so-called business people/useful idiots, this should be put in context of there being four million limited companies in UK - do the maths!)

So you'll be voting for the party that eventually knew a lot more about the PO scandal than Ed Davey ever did, and yet for a decade connived to try and put the issue and compensation into the long grass until ITV made it into prime TV news this year.

Both major parties knew lots and shame on them. Only one party has a party leader who was PO minister for two years and has weaselled his way out of scrutiny. I suspect he probably coached Vennells.

Question. You say Davey has "weaselled his way out of scrutiny". The opposite is true. He has had all the scrutiny, and has accounted for his actions.

Where is the scrutiny on Badenoch? Or on any of the previous Tory ministers? Where is their accountability? Or their apology?

Just so we're clear, your reaction to the Post Office outrage is that you are going to vote for the party who have been solely in government covering this up for 9 years, who have issued zero apology for their personal actions, who gave Vennels a CBE, who have done everything they can not to accept there is an issue, who have delayed and delayed and delayed paying any compensation to the victims?

You're voting Tory in outrage of the PO scandal? Just so we're clear.

Quite frankly I couldn't give a flying fuck if you are clear or not as you are an apologist for Davy, but here goes an explanation: I will not vote LD this time because their leader should resign because he knew, and he is a party leader . Simple enough for you?

Your attempt to create equivalence with Badenoch is ridiculous as she is not a party leader.

I would like intense scrutiny of all of them. I would like any that are proven to have covered things up to resign their seats or possibly go to jail. I would like them to experience some of the misery that the sub postmasters have had to endure

I didn't ask whether you would vote LibDem. You are clear on that topic.

I asked if you are going to vote Tory. You - like so many of us - are very upset by the PO scandal. You have identified it as a key driver for how you will vote. So are you - as a result of your anger - going to vote Tory?

As you know I am supporting one of the many groups impacted by these types of scandals. I did a FOI of our entire scandal. All ministers (from all 3 parties) act consistently. All letters go to the civil servants. The civil servants draft a reply together with supporting notes for the minister. In 100% of cases the letter that goes out is 100% the same as the draft. Some of these replies are totally barking mad. Often it appears that the original letter has not been read. It is normal to get a question you didn't ask answered. I have not seen any notes in the FOI of any minister asking questions of the civil servants. This covered a 12 year period.

This is appalling. This is why this stuff happens. The civil servants are being defensive and the ministers do not ask enough questions. They often don't know their brief well and change jobs too frequently. I discussed this with an ex-minister who was unusually an expert in their field and their comments were even more damning.

Now this doesn't excuse Davey, but it is the system and frankly the first minister in the chain is the one with least blame. By the time you are several ministers along and a scandal is brewing then responsibility and turning a blind eye becomes more obvious.

Gardenwalker said:

Although the polls look terrible, Rishi has five weeks and seems to be doing his own version of Major’s soapbox.

Starmer has said nothing of note or interest so far.
Rachel Reeves has been more active.

All to play for.

WillG said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

kle4 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Leon said:

megasaur said:

Jim_the_Lurker said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

MJW said:

eek said:

ydoethur said:

FPT (but relevant to this one)

LostPassword said:

Stuartinromford said:

Cleitophon said:

Foxy said:

Andy_JS said:

Sir Ed Davey = deputy PM on 5th July?

In the event of a hung parliament expect C and S rather than a formal coalition.

I am sorry, but you shouldn't be taking hits off a crack pipe before posting. Look at the polling - the labour lead is widening after the GE was called. The low low quality of the tory campaign, message fragmentation and targeting of very narrow voting segments and the conservative organization in a state of disrepair. The numbers are the numbers (within a 2-3% marging of error) and this is going to be a landslide. Talk of hung parliaments is kubler-Ross grief management. Let me remind you the stages: denial, anger, negotiation, despair, acceptance.

To be fair to @Foxy , he did say "in the event". Future events have non-zero probabilities. The Kubler-Ross stuff is largely coming from Conservative supporters.

And it's a fair point to note that the polling is saying something crazy. In the British system, parties don't win elections by over twenty points. Even Maggie in 1983 only won by fifteen.

And yet... The numbers are the numbers, across many polls by multiple companies. And they are backed up by the other data we have. I think it's now OK to say that the act of calling the election hasn't caused a "minds concentrated, this is now for real" bounce for the government.

They've got five weeks, and counting.

It's worth remembering that Theresa May had a 20% lead as late as the ICM with fieldwork on 12-14th May - 25 days before polling day, and 26 days after the election was announced. We still have 36 days to go, and we're only 7 days post election announcement.

It is also worth remembering that even before the 'dementia tax' nonsense May's campaign was making a number of serious gaffes. Grammar schools and fox hunting spring to mind. The idiots behind her (looks hard at Nick Timothy) believed they were inviolable and therefore could propose a hit list of Tory wet dreams to go with what they expected to be a huge mandate.

Starmer, by contrast, seems wary of any hubris and is intent on avoiding giving new hostages to fortune. The only really silly things he's done so far are VAT on private school fees and Diane Abbott's in and out situation.

The Diane Abbott thing is definitely a screw up. It really should have been a polite we are happy to have you back but you are not well and 70 years old, there is a peerage of you retire quietly..

Should it be though? Abbott is understandably given leeway given her status as a historic figure - rightly in many senses. But what she said was egregious, it was hardly a first offence in terms of antisemitism denial, and though there was an apology, I'm not sure many on those on the wrong end of her comments think it was overly sincere. Plus, she really does hold views Labour shouldn't be associating itself with - look at what she said when Russia was invading Ukraine.

You couldn't really give her a peerage without it looking grubby in another way.

Yes, they've handled it badly. But let's not pretend this is someone who is entirely blameless getting the boot for factional reasons rather than someone who holds some pretty dismal views that are now, thankfully, not acceptable within Labour. Who Labour were in a quandary about dealing with in the harsh way might otherwise have done because she holds significance for other reasons.

Abbott's was not intended as antisemitism denial so much as claiming a special place for anti-Black racism. That is not to say it was not ill-advised or offensive but there is no mens rea as SKS might say.

Intent is difficult to judge. She apologised quite quickly - and maybe she was being truthful about it being an early draft. But I am sceptical.

The letter said this in relation to prejudice against Jews, travellers and the Irish: “It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism”

That is a terrible view. I am a ginger and have been picked on at school (and still see and her slurs against redheads in the media). But at no point would I consider those minor barbs akin to those suffered by Jews, travellers and the Irish for simply existing. Which is what the letter seems to suggests. What a ridiculous view. I appreciate that there is an argument about where race begins (and so racism - I don’t buy it, but there is an argument), but I am certain my experience as ginger is not the same as those with the characteristics noted at the top of the letter.

Each racial characteristic that suffers from prejudices has its own history of disgraceful behaviour. For blacks I would see slavery as that key original crime. For Jews the holocaust. You could play the game of rating each other’s past suffering and playing it off against each other. But what would be the point of that? I also think different forms of racism manifest themselves in the modern world in different ways. But I think I could say that without doing down different types of racism. I would have hoped that Diane Abbot could have done that too.

You need to ask yourself the question if you had a forced choice between being Jewish or black in this country, which would you choose? If one is obviously preferable to the other, she surely has a point

No one is putting armed guards outside “black” schools in Britain

There are security guards outside at least one of the schools round here and it is neither Black nor Jewish. One of the Black churches near where I used to work had two ginormous bouncers outside during services. I'm not sure what your point is but doubt it is well-founded.

Buy is it a much more common thing around mostly Jewish schools? I suspect it is.

It is some weeks since being driven past two local Jewish schools but I could not see any security guards, no. It may be they have hotlines to the police or other special security arrangements.

We should not blow this out of proportion. There are weekly protest marches about Gaza, and have been for months, but they are marches not riots.

Every Jewish school has a highly sophisticated system of security. But the debate is pointless. It doesn't matter whether blacks or Jews face more racism. They both have done and dismissing either is ugly. Diane Abbott has not only done this, but also said multiple racist things over the years. She is an appalling bigot and has rightly been rejected by Starmer. It took Labour way too long to do that.

Cicero said:

Taz said:

DM_Andy said:

Cookie said:

Ghedebrav said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

Is that not the right way to say it? I’d learnt that ‘Shrowsbury’ was a bit of an affectation and not actually how locals say it.

Btw my great-nan was a spiritualist and was a noted seance leader and whatnot, travelling up and down the country. My understanding is that she genuinely believed in it all, though tbh who knows - some recent family history undertaken by my great-uncle has uncovered that there’s a strong fantasist streak in my lineage (I prefer to think I’ve inherited my dad’s side’s downrightness).

Similarly, Southwell in Nottinghamshire. Which is pronounced Suth'll by people from Nottinghamshire. Apart from by people from Southwell, who almost overenunciate South-well.

Place names are a complete minefield, like with Wymondham, Norfolk being Wind'em and Wymondham, Leicestershire being Why-mond-ham (hattip to Andrew at Britain Elects for that factoid)

Rugeley in Staffs is pronounced Rudge-lee for some reason, Houghton-Le-Spring is pronounced Horton-Le-Spring by locals of my acquantance. Bizarre.

Mildenhall, Suffolk is pronounced Mill-Den-Hall, Mildenhall, Wilts is Pronounced Mine-ul,

As noted elsewhere, many Scottish pronunciations are also a long way from their spellings: Garioch, as Gear-ee for example.

Taz said:

The favourite MP of @Anabobazina Bill CASH has announced he is standing down.

Will he be replaced by Bill ChipnPin ?

MattW said:

Ghedebrav said:

MattW said:

My photo for the day.

I'm doing a small data gathering exercise on cycle parking at National Trust properties - generally fairly primitive and not very common, but they are geared up for motorised visitors and are trying to be more comprehensive. So fair play to the NT for starting on the journey - it always starts from here.

This is the "Cyclists Welcome" sign at Dunham Massey near Manchester.

It's been there for some time, and the cyclist illustrated is as plump as Boris Johnson.


They have the normal "come without a motor vehicle and get 10% off". Here on production of a cycle helmet.

Dunham Massey is close to Trans-Pennine Trail and Bridgewater Canal. Cycling in the park is for under 5s only but make use of the bike park in the main car park and enjoy a stroll across the park and gardens.
As a thank you for visiting car-free, you're invited to enjoy 10% off in the café and restaurant on the production of a bike helmet.

Not much cycle parking at DM but I always seem to find a spot to lock up. Quarry Bank (as well as being fantastic in general) is better.

Tbf most NT places geared to family visits will tend to have to also be geared to motorists. There’s no way I’d get my two to Dunham on two wheels from where I am.

Do you have a Google location or a photo of the cycle parking there I could add to my twitter thread about it, and to the WalkRideGM discord forum?

Northern_Al said:

kinabalu said:

CarlottaVance said:

My pet linguistic peeve is introducing management speak into everyday conversation…..to my horror I once found myself saying “Mother, that’s not actionable….”

I went through a very annoying phase of always asking somebody to quantify their opinion on whether (or not) something would happen, ie give it a probability.

My mum: "I think Aunt Edith is coming for Christmas."
Me: "You think?"
My mum: "Well I'm not sure but she should be."
Me: "More likely than not then, is what you actually mean."
My mum: "I suppose so, yes."
Me: "How likely though? 75% 90% Can we put a number on it?"

All very interesting, but did Aunt Edith come for Christmas or didn't she?

Gardenwalker said:

Starmer needs to take the “loss” and let Abbott stand (even if she then goes on to retire not long after the election).

Jamarion said:

If MPs can be judged by how well they represent their constituents, Diane Abbott is probably the best MP in the House. See her "How I can help you" page:

https://www.dianeabbott.org.uk/contact/help.aspx

She is very popular locally and rightly so. See her increases in voteshare:

2010: +6.0%
2015: +7.9%
2017: +12.2%
2019: -4.8%

Labour nationally:
2010: -6.2%
2015: +1.5%
2017: +9.6%
2019: -7.9%

She has outperformed Labour by 12.2pp, 6.4pp, 2.6pp, and 3.1pp.

Enjoy your retirement, Diane. You've earned it.

DayTripper said:

Cookie said:

Ghedebrav said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

Is that not the right way to say it? I’d learnt that ‘Shrowsbury’ was a bit of an affectation and not actually how locals say it.

Btw my great-nan was a spiritualist and was a noted seance leader and whatnot, travelling up and down the country. My understanding is that she genuinely believed in it all, though tbh who knows - some recent family history undertaken by my great-uncle has uncovered that there’s a strong fantasist streak in my lineage (I prefer to think I’ve inherited my dad’s side’s downrightness).

Similarly, Southwell in Nottinghamshire. Which is pronounced Suth'll by people from Nottinghamshire. Apart from by people from Southwell, who almost overenunciate South-well.

Only by incomers. I was born and brought up there (50s/60s) and everybody I knew said Suth'll.

Gardenwalker said:

Although the polls look terrible, Rishi has five weeks and seems to be doing his own version of Major’s soapbox.

Starmer has said nothing of note or interest so far.
Rachel Reeves has been more active.

All to play for.

Gardenwalker said:

Although the polls look terrible, Rishi has five weeks and seems to be doing his own version of Major’s soapbox.

Starmer has said nothing of note or interest so far.
Rachel Reeves has been more active.

All to play for.

williamglenn said:

Taz said:

The favourite MP of @Anabobazina Bill CASH has announced he is standing down.

Will he be replaced by Bill ChipnPin ?

Bill Contactless, although he’d probably end up in a groping scandal.

kinabalu said:

Benpointer said:

kinabalu said:

CarlottaVance said:

My pet linguistic peeve is introducing management speak into everyday conversation…..to my horror I once found myself saying “Mother, that’s not actionable….”

I went through a very annoying phase of always asking somebody to quantify their opinion on whether (or not) something would happen, ie give it a probability.

My mum: "I think Aunt Edith is coming for Christmas."
Me: "You think?"
My mum: "Well I'm not sure but she should be."
Me: "More likely than not then, is what you actually mean."
My mum: "I suppose so, yes."
Me: "How likely though? 75% 90% Can we put a number on it?"

It's a great get out when reporting to directors though:

"How certain are you, you can land this project on time?"
"We're in good shape - 95% we'll land on time."
Later...
"You missed the target date - you misled us."
"Well... 5% is not zero."

Exactly! Although in my case it came from too much immersion in probability theory. It describes reality (and all else is sloppy) but I was becoming a pain in the neck to friends and family. I keep it for here now.

megasaur said:

Benpointer said:

DM_Andy said:

Cookie said:

Ghedebrav said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

Is that not the right way to say it? I’d learnt that ‘Shrowsbury’ was a bit of an affectation and not actually how locals say it.

Btw my great-nan was a spiritualist and was a noted seance leader and whatnot, travelling up and down the country. My understanding is that she genuinely believed in it all, though tbh who knows - some recent family history undertaken by my great-uncle has uncovered that there’s a strong fantasist streak in my lineage (I prefer to think I’ve inherited my dad’s side’s downrightness).

Similarly, Southwell in Nottinghamshire. Which is pronounced Suth'll by people from Nottinghamshire. Apart from by people from Southwell, who almost overenunciate South-well.

Place names are a complete minefield, like with Wymondham, Norfolk being Wind'em and Wymondham, Leicestershire being Why-mond-ham (hattip to Andrew at Britain Elects for that factoid)

Cherwell - Char-well. Locals say Cherwell, snobs say Charwell.

Launceston is an oddity. People think they are getting it right saying lawnston but locals call it lanson or larnson. I understand Launceston in Tasmania is pronounced as written.

Cicero said:

Taz said:

DM_Andy said:

Cookie said:

Ghedebrav said:

DM_Andy said:

wooliedyed said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Taz said:

Ghedebrav said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

A 27 point lead after the election was called?

That is extinction levels right there.

Ah but wait for the manifestos - a little skirt for every table leg, jail time for elbows on tables, death penalty for vegans, mandatory Union Jack blankets for conceiving British Babies etc etc

Jail time for people who play their music on public transport without headphones, or people who chew their food with their mouths open.

A votewinner for me.

People that say "haitch" instead of aitch, or skedule instead of schedule. Absolute vote winners.

Fil um instead of film. Morons
And people who say 'passed' instead of died

My nan was a spiritualist so always said 'passed' and I've taken that on from her along with calling Shrewsbury 'Shroosbry'.

Is that not the right way to say it? I’d learnt that ‘Shrowsbury’ was a bit of an affectation and not actually how locals say it.

Btw my great-nan was a spiritualist and was a noted seance leader and whatnot, travelling up and down the country. My understanding is that she genuinely believed in it all, though tbh who knows - some recent family history undertaken by my great-uncle has uncovered that there’s a strong fantasist streak in my lineage (I prefer to think I’ve inherited my dad’s side’s downrightness).

Similarly, Southwell in Nottinghamshire. Which is pronounced Suth'll by people from Nottinghamshire. Apart from by people from Southwell, who almost overenunciate South-well.

Place names are a complete minefield, like with Wymondham, Norfolk being Wind'em and Wymondham, Leicestershire being Why-mond-ham (hattip to Andrew at Britain Elects for that factoid)

Rugeley in Staffs is pronounced Rudge-lee for some reason, Houghton-Le-Spring is pronounced Horton-Le-Spring by locals of my acquantance. Bizarre.

Mildenhall, Suffolk is pronounced Mill-Den-Hall, Mildenhall, Wilts is Pronounced Mine-ul,

As noted elsewhere, many Scottish pronunciations are also a long way from their spellings: Garioch, as Gear-ee for example.

Carnyx said:

Eabhal said:

Eabhal said:

I've just come across a small business owner who is going to vote Green in protest to the Tories. Gen X, school educated, working class, employs about 10.

Environmentally minded (likes trees) but still - fit THAT into your model YouGov.

OTOH, would bring back the death penalty for the Sycamore Gap twats. Something to consider @CCHQ

He? Or you?

BTW I see KCIII is to plant a replacement.

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

DM_Andy said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

MJW said:

noneoftheabove said:

Ghedebrav said:

Scott_xP said:

@Samfr

This morning's YouGov for people under 50 only:

Labour 59%
Greens 12%
Cons 8%
Reform 8%
LD 6%

That's the worst result amongst this age group I've see yet. Equal third with Reform.

Kind of astonishing - and I think leads to an IRL echo chamber as well as a virtual one, where working age people are very broadly anti-conservative, with pretty much 5/6 being LLG and probably leading to an assumption therefore that 'everyone' is voting the Tories out, from conversations over lunch breaks, pub after work and whatnot. Suspect a fair few people will end up being astonished that their seat has stayed blue come the 5th July.

Young (and other under 50) people are not anti-conservative, they are anti this chaotic government, its attacks on young people economically and its involvement in the culture wars. In many ways they are quite conservative, hard working, entrepreneurial, healthier lifestyles and wanting to conserve our environment.

Exactly. Among my peers the noticeable thing is not that there's an echo chamber of left-wing opinion but that those who in theory should be voting Tory or persuadable - good job, family, mortgage - are absolutely dead against them and would not be seen dead voting for them. Anecdotal, of course, but have quite broad acquaintances and am in a traditionally Tory bit of the country near London.

The polls bear that out. As for the reasons, it's economics (even those who have done well feel hard pressed, will have battled through high rents and static pay and have friends worse off) combined with image.

Brexit has obviously shifted to the back burner as an issue, but it's a key inflection point where a lot of younger (now getting on for middle aged) people who might have been tempted into the Tory camp in the past for financial reasons and to be left alone, thought "OK, this party really doesn't like me and my values". And the culture war stuff since and endless attempts to "own the libs" and slag off the young has crystalised that.

As people used to say with Corbyn, if you look like you hate the country, don't expect it to vote for you. At the moment the Tories look like they hate anyone Under 50 who is more liberal than the Daily Mail comments section.

So don't expect them to vote for you - and that doesn't just include 'woke' students but management consultants who would normally be quite right-wing on policy, but won't vote for a party who sound like they want to turn Britain into a 1950s theme park.

Hello hello hello hello hello hello hello. Sorry just slipped into your echo chamber chamber chamber.

There is polling evidence for the Brexit issue, it's dropped in salience according to the trends in the YouGov "what are the top three issues" question, but it's dropped much more among Leave voters than Remain voters. From memory 9% of Leavers think it's one of the top three, 29% of Remainers do. That could lead to Leave voters feeling that Brexit's a done thing and moving on to vote on a wider range of issues and some Remain voters still feeling hurt over the referendum vote and not touching the Tories with a bargepole.

I am probably going against the general flow, but I voted LD in the last two GEs because of Brexit. I won't be this time because I believe Ed Davy knew a lot more about the PO scandal than he and his supporters claim, and I am genuinely terrified of a Labour landslide. I don't like the Tories as they are now, but the Labour Party is the party of the public sector and nothing else ( as for the 150 signatures of the so-called business people/useful idiots, this should be put in context of there being four million limited companies in UK - do the maths!)

So you'll be voting for the party that eventually knew a lot more about the PO scandal than Ed Davey ever did, and yet for a decade connived to try and put the issue and compensation into the long grass until ITV made it into prime TV news this year.

Both major parties knew lots and shame on them. Only one party has a party leader who was PO minister for two years and has weaselled his way out of scrutiny. I suspect he probably coached Vennells.

Question. You say Davey has "weaselled his way out of scrutiny". The opposite is true. He has had all the scrutiny, and has accounted for his actions.

Where is the scrutiny on Badenoch? Or on any of the previous Tory ministers? Where is their accountability? Or their apology?

Just so we're clear, your reaction to the Post Office outrage is that you are going to vote for the party who have been solely in government covering this up for 9 years, who have issued zero apology for their personal actions, who gave Vennels a CBE, who have done everything they can not to accept there is an issue, who have delayed and delayed and delayed paying any compensation to the victims?

You're voting Tory in outrage of the PO scandal? Just so we're clear.

Quite frankly I couldn't give a flying fuck if you are clear or not as you are an apologist for Davy, but here goes an explanation: I will not vote LD this time because their leader should resign because he knew, and he is a party leader . Simple enough for you?

Your attempt to create equivalence with Badenoch is ridiculous as she is not a party leader.

I would like intense scrutiny of all of them. I would like any that are proven to have covered things up to resign their seats or possibly go to jail. I would like them to experience some of the misery that the sub postmasters have had to endure

I didn't ask whether you would vote LibDem. You are clear on that topic.

I asked if you are going to vote Tory. You - like so many of us - are very upset by the PO scandal. You have identified it as a key driver for how you will vote. So are you - as a result of your anger - going to vote Tory?

Taz said:

kinabalu said:

Northern_Al said:

kinabalu said:

CarlottaVance said:

My pet linguistic peeve is introducing management speak into everyday conversation…..to my horror I once found myself saying “Mother, that’s not actionable….”

I went through a very annoying phase of always asking somebody to quantify their opinion on whether (or not) something would happen, ie give it a probability.

My mum: "I think Aunt Edith is coming for Christmas."
Me: "You think?"
My mum: "Well I'm not sure but she should be."
Me: "More likely than not then, is what you actually mean."
My mum: "I suppose so, yes."
Me: "How likely though? 75% 90% Can we put a number on it?"

All very interesting, but did Aunt Edith come for Christmas or didn't she?

She did - and brought the usual bottle of Baileys.

My Mom's Auntie Edith used to visit us for Xmas, Warninks Advocaat was a tipple of hers.

bondegezou said:

Gardenwalker said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Gardenwalker said:

Although the polls look terrible, Rishi has five weeks and seems to be doing his own version of Major’s soapbox.

Starmer has said nothing of note or interest so far.
Rachel Reeves has been more active.

All to play for.

Isn't the Tories problem that Sunak keeps standing up and making mad announcement after mad announcement?

I’m not convinced by this received wisdom.
The announcements may be cynical, I’m not sure they are “mad”. And he’s making all the running.

And the polls haven't shifted.

Peter_the_Punter said:

kjh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

DM_Andy said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

MJW said:

noneoftheabove said:

Ghedebrav said:

Scott_xP said:

@Samfr

This morning's YouGov for people under 50 only:

Labour 59%
Greens 12%
Cons 8%
Reform 8%
LD 6%

That's the worst result amongst this age group I've see yet. Equal third with Reform.

Kind of astonishing - and I think leads to an IRL echo chamber as well as a virtual one, where working age people are very broadly anti-conservative, with pretty much 5/6 being LLG and probably leading to an assumption therefore that 'everyone' is voting the Tories out, from conversations over lunch breaks, pub after work and whatnot. Suspect a fair few people will end up being astonished that their seat has stayed blue come the 5th July.

Young (and other under 50) people are not anti-conservative, they are anti this chaotic government, its attacks on young people economically and its involvement in the culture wars. In many ways they are quite conservative, hard working, entrepreneurial, healthier lifestyles and wanting to conserve our environment.

Exactly. Among my peers the noticeable thing is not that there's an echo chamber of left-wing opinion but that those who in theory should be voting Tory or persuadable - good job, family, mortgage - are absolutely dead against them and would not be seen dead voting for them. Anecdotal, of course, but have quite broad acquaintances and am in a traditionally Tory bit of the country near London.

The polls bear that out. As for the reasons, it's economics (even those who have done well feel hard pressed, will have battled through high rents and static pay and have friends worse off) combined with image.

Brexit has obviously shifted to the back burner as an issue, but it's a key inflection point where a lot of younger (now getting on for middle aged) people who might have been tempted into the Tory camp in the past for financial reasons and to be left alone, thought "OK, this party really doesn't like me and my values". And the culture war stuff since and endless attempts to "own the libs" and slag off the young has crystalised that.

As people used to say with Corbyn, if you look like you hate the country, don't expect it to vote for you. At the moment the Tories look like they hate anyone Under 50 who is more liberal than the Daily Mail comments section.

So don't expect them to vote for you - and that doesn't just include 'woke' students but management consultants who would normally be quite right-wing on policy, but won't vote for a party who sound like they want to turn Britain into a 1950s theme park.

Hello hello hello hello hello hello hello. Sorry just slipped into your echo chamber chamber chamber.

There is polling evidence for the Brexit issue, it's dropped in salience according to the trends in the YouGov "what are the top three issues" question, but it's dropped much more among Leave voters than Remain voters. From memory 9% of Leavers think it's one of the top three, 29% of Remainers do. That could lead to Leave voters feeling that Brexit's a done thing and moving on to vote on a wider range of issues and some Remain voters still feeling hurt over the referendum vote and not touching the Tories with a bargepole.

I am probably going against the general flow, but I voted LD in the last two GEs because of Brexit. I won't be this time because I believe Ed Davy knew a lot more about the PO scandal than he and his supporters claim, and I am genuinely terrified of a Labour landslide. I don't like the Tories as they are now, but the Labour Party is the party of the public sector and nothing else ( as for the 150 signatures of the so-called business people/useful idiots, this should be put in context of there being four million limited companies in UK - do the maths!)

So you'll be voting for the party that eventually knew a lot more about the PO scandal than Ed Davey ever did, and yet for a decade connived to try and put the issue and compensation into the long grass until ITV made it into prime TV news this year.

Both major parties knew lots and shame on them. Only one party has a party leader who was PO minister for two years and has weaselled his way out of scrutiny. I suspect he probably coached Vennells.

Question. You say Davey has "weaselled his way out of scrutiny". The opposite is true. He has had all the scrutiny, and has accounted for his actions.

Where is the scrutiny on Badenoch? Or on any of the previous Tory ministers? Where is their accountability? Or their apology?

Just so we're clear, your reaction to the Post Office outrage is that you are going to vote for the party who have been solely in government covering this up for 9 years, who have issued zero apology for their personal actions, who gave Vennels a CBE, who have done everything they can not to accept there is an issue, who have delayed and delayed and delayed paying any compensation to the victims?

You're voting Tory in outrage of the PO scandal? Just so we're clear.

Quite frankly I couldn't give a flying fuck if you are clear or not as you are an apologist for Davy, but here goes an explanation: I will not vote LD this time because their leader should resign because he knew, and he is a party leader . Simple enough for you?

Your attempt to create equivalence with Badenoch is ridiculous as she is not a party leader.

I would like intense scrutiny of all of them. I would like any that are proven to have covered things up to resign their seats or possibly go to jail. I would like them to experience some of the misery that the sub postmasters have had to endure

I didn't ask whether you would vote LibDem. You are clear on that topic.

I asked if you are going to vote Tory. You - like so many of us - are very upset by the PO scandal. You have identified it as a key driver for how you will vote. So are you - as a result of your anger - going to vote Tory?

As you know I am supporting one of the many groups impacted by these types of scandals. I did a FOI of our entire scandal. All ministers (from all 3 parties) act consistently. All letters go to the civil servants. The civil servants draft a reply together with supporting notes for the minister. In 100% of cases the letter that goes out is 100% the same as the draft. Some of these replies are totally barking mad. Often it appears that the original letter has not been read. It is normal to get a question you didn't ask answered. I have not seen any notes in the FOI of any minister asking questions of the civil servants. This covered a 12 year period.

This is appalling. This is why this stuff happens. The civil servants are being defensive and the ministers do not ask enough questions. They often don't know their brief well and change jobs too frequently. I discussed this with an ex-minister who was unusually an expert in their field and their comments were even more damning.

Now this doesn't excuse Davey, but it is the system and frankly the first minister in the chain is the one with least blame. By the time you are several ministers along and a scandal is brewing then responsibility and turning a blind eye becomes more obvious.

That's right, KJ. There are systemic issues, and bad actors. The PO Inquiry is trying its best to identify both.

One of the clearest systemic flaws is the relationship between Government and the PO (and other organisations which are wholly owned by the Government). There is no shortage of bad actors. Jarnail Singh, the PO's comedy lawyer, would be one of the more blatant examples but the list is long. Davy? Probably a fair way down it, but we'll know more after he has testified.

As a general rule of thumb, the later culprits are the worst because over the years it became increasingly difficult to deny that something awful had happened. The PO has been in denial throughout, and as far asI can tell is still not cooperating fully with the Inquiry. Ministers didn't stir until after the TV series aired. (Some exceptions, maybe....notably one Boris Johnson?) Don't recall hearing much from Badenoch, even since the programme.

That's a depressingly long list of ministerial suspects, but I cannot for the life of me imagine why you would look at it and immediately say to yourself 'That's it. Not voting for his/her Party.'

They all have dirty hands.