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Braving a New World – politicalbetting.com

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  • Westerners have a flawed habit of trying to railroad their values on others instead of letting societies mature at their own pace.

    Oddly enough being intent on imposing 'western values' on foreign countries while being tolerant of non western values being propagated in the West.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_propagation_of_Salafism_and_Wahhabism_by_region#Western_Europe
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160
    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,572

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fairly remarkable for a Chancellor to decide, while in office, that he won't run at the next election.

    Not that surprising if his party is heading for opposition, his prospects of being next party leader are near zero and he has the chance to make more money in the private sector outside
    I don't see why he remains in position now, if this is his attitude. There's no long term commitment to the British economy - no plan to return it to prosperity. The Chancellor should at least be pretending to be committed long term, whether it's likely that his party will remain in office or not. I can't remember similar circumstances in my lifetime.
    He is committed to reducing the deficit and inflation and as he is not standing for re election does not need to worry about being popular (albeit the Tory manifesto may still propose tax cuts even if he won't)
    Politicians wanting to do popular things so they get re-elected is a feature of democracy, not a bug. Hunt's plan to asphyxiate the economy under a record breaking tax burden whilst he continues to piss the money away on an unreformed state and then fuck off at the next election is unprecedented and despicable. He should stand down as Chancellor immediately.
    As far as I’m concerned, the current chancellor needs to run in a GE because the governments economic policy is on the line in a campaign.

    If Hunt is going to quit at the GE then he should have the good grace to quit as Chancellor.
    He has issued a denial of sorts, but it's likely he'll get pressed on this in interviews, and if he does plan to step down 'at' the next election (as opposed to 'before' it) he'll be asked if he plans to fight the election, and then either need to commit to a brazen lie, or his 'clever' wording is going to look really bad.

    Any authority he has as Chancellor is seriously called into question by this.
    I'm wondering how many of the current cabinet with either

    a - Quit.
    or
    b - Lose their seat.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,670
    Andy_JS said:

    "Police investigating Tube driver leading passengers in pro-Palestine chant

    The video, posted on X - formerly known as Twitter, appears to show the driver chanting over the announcement system on the Central line."

    https://news.sky.com/story/police-investigating-tube-driver-leading-passengers-in-pro-palestine-chant-12989198

    The 'X - formally known as twitter' line is getting almost as tedious as the content. Musk knows he has the media captive - he might as well call it 'shallowfry' and be done with it. "As of today you need to pay in twoodlecoin - 8 per character, unless it's a Thursday. Or my mothers birthday. Then it's foorteney twoodlecoins,"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,974
    edited October 2023

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    'Emerson included a question of a hypothetical match-up between Biden and Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah), the 2012 GOP presidential nominee who is not running for president and plans to retire from the Senate after his current term comes to an end. Biden led Romney among voters under 30 by a significant margin, 50 percent to 24 percent.

    Emerson College Polling Executive Director Spencer Kimball noted in a release that this lead is more reflective of Biden’s margin of victory with these voters in the 2020 election.

    The two youngest age groups were also the most likely to be undecided, with 12 percent saying they do not know who they would support between Trump and Biden.'

    Though of course if Trump is convicted and jailed next year it is of little relevance anyway
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    If anyone wants something to cheer them up, I am currently on a cruise in the North Sea. We’ve bee dancing with Babet since Wednesday, which has been interesting.

    We couldn’t get out of Southampton on day 1 (too rough) and couldn’t get into Hamburg yesterday (not enough water - it’s all been blown out of the Elbe apparently (!)).

    On the plus side 90% of the passengers are American and I haven’t met one who confesses to being a Trump supporter yet.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Catania is also really NOISY as well as filthy and dangerous and full of beautiful girls eating pizza at midnight

    I’m in an 18th century palazzo in the middle. Superb

  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,670

    If anyone wants something to cheer them up, I am currently on a cruise in the North Sea. We’ve bee dancing with Babet since Wednesday, which has been interesting.

    We couldn’t get out of Southampton on day 1 (too rough) and couldn’t get into Hamburg yesterday (not enough water - it’s all been blown out of the Elbe apparently (!)).

    On the plus side 90% of the passengers are American and I haven’t met one who confesses to being a Trump supporter yet.

    The concept of a 'Quiet Trump supporter' does feel rather incongruent.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,297

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    We do not have free speech. We do not have the right of protest
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,572
    edited October 2023
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Supreme Court *freezes* Louisiana district court ruling that would’ve barred a wide range of contacts between executive branch officials and social media companies.

    Justices Thomas, Alito, and Gorsuch publicly dissent in separate opinion.

    https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/status/1715460651399717106

    Interesting, but I'm not sure I understand the implications. Care to explain?

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23a243_7l48.pdf
    https://www.supremecourt.gov/docket/docketfiles/html/public/23a243.html
    If this is the one I think it is, it was an attempt to keep Biden and his officials (including iirc his media team and press officers etc) off social media, by a 2-bit Judge in nowheresville (sorry, Louisiana), and the saner conservative members of the Supreme Court have lined up with the liberals because they know that denying the the Executive Branch access to social media is absurd.

    It is temporary, as indicated, and is in force whilst the Supreme Court considers it's verdict and makes a decision.

    That's the TL:DR for the commentary I head on a liberal channel, so partisan but it sounds credible - watching the behaviour of the Florida Judge who keeps finding non-reasons to delay the Trump case she is presiding over.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    Catania is also really NOISY as well as filthy and dangerous and full of beautiful girls eating pizza at midnight

    I’m in an 18th century palazzo in the middle. Superb

    Sounds like The White Lotus. You could fancy yourself as the character played by Christopher from The Sopranos
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    edited October 2023

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    Does Trump have plans to abolish elections if he wins again? I wasn't aware he did.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,301
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    We do not have free speech. We do not have the right of protest

    Yes you do. For example, you can be pretty offensive on here, and the powers that be only ban you occasionally, and briefly, before you charm your way back. PB: a bastion of free speech.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    carnforth said:

    isam said:

    It might not be the driver leading the chant though, how do we know it’s not someone on the train with a kind of megaphone?

    Then again, why would that person wish the marchers well, rather than get off the train & go with them?

    https://x.com/alexrubner/status/1715721468489695303?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Owen Jones has spotted a new bandwagon to jump on:

    https://x.com/owenjones84/status/1715775511488499961

    Palestine and RMT member? Bingo!
    Is that a deleted tweet?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    edited October 2023
    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    Evidence free comment. A classic case of assuming ‘everyone must think like me,… surely?’

    In fact “Differences by party and age emerge around views on “wokeness,” with Democrats and younger Americans more likely to see “wokeness” as a compliment than Republicans and older Americans, respectively.”

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/americans-divided-whether-woke-compliment-or-insult
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160
    Andy_JS said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    Does Trump have plans to abolish elections if he wins again? I wasn't aware he did.
    It will be more subtle than that. But be in no doubt. The people behind him are planning the end of democracy in America.

    Pretending this isn't happening is a profound mistake.

    Europe needs to prepare.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    Verstappen being Verstappen.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,297
    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    I don't think they should get any particular credit because they were not violent.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903
    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    Andy_JS said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    Does Trump have plans to abolish elections if he wins again? I wasn't aware he did.
    He’s on record as saying he wants to lock up his political opponents which, unless you consider Putin’s Russia to be a democracy, is an effective way to end democracy.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    Does Trump have plans to abolish elections if he wins again? I wasn't aware he did.
    Oh, he has no intention of abolishing the elections. Dictators find elections useful, as they give a spurious legitimacy to the regime and prevent sanctions or legal punishment from other countries. The point is to appoint those who count the votes and control the results. Banning elections themselves is just too retro for words.

    https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-rig-an-election/nic-cheeseman/brian-klaas/9780300246650
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-to-rig-an-election/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    Does Trump have plans to abolish elections if he wins again? I wasn't aware he did.
    Oh, he has no intention of abolishing the elections. Dictators find elections useful, as they give a spurious legitimacy to the regime and prevent sanctions or legal punishment from other countries. The point is to appoint those who count the votes and control the results. Banning elections themselves is just too retro for words.

    https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-rig-an-election/nic-cheeseman/brian-klaas/9780300246650
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-to-rig-an-election/
    “Let them vote. My brother will count the results” - Napoleon
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903
    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    I think democracy is pretty much finished
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    Andy_JS said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    Does Trump have plans to abolish elections if he wins again? I wasn't aware he did.
    He’s on record as saying he wants to lock up his political opponents which, unless you consider Putin’s Russia to be a democracy, is an effective way to end democracy.
    Though in 2016 he said he was going to "Lock Her Up" to Clinton, so take anything he says with a large pinch of salt.

    Electing Trump will be quite a waypoint in American decline, but not catastrophic. Trump cares litte for the abroad, his enemies are internal.

    Ukraine will suffer, but in the end they can hold the line themselves. They have fought Russia to a stalemate at best.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,297

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    Evidence free comment. A classic case of assuming ‘everyone must think like me,… surely?’

    In fact “Differences by party and age emerge around views on “wokeness,” with Democrats and younger Americans more likely to see “wokeness” as a compliment than Republicans and older Americans, respectively.”

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/americans-divided-whether-woke-compliment-or-insult
    I am just speculating that the young people who support Trump are not enthusiastic about 'woke' stuff - which seems reasonable.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    Does Trump have plans to abolish elections if he wins again? I wasn't aware he did.
    Oh, he has no intention of abolishing the elections. Dictators find elections useful, as they give a spurious legitimacy to the regime and prevent sanctions or legal punishment from other countries. The point is to appoint those who count the votes and control the results. Banning elections themselves is just too retro for words.

    https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-rig-an-election/nic-cheeseman/brian-klaas/9780300246650
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-to-rig-an-election/
    Yes
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
    He will defend white people. That is the perception

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Catania is also really NOISY as well as filthy and dangerous and full of beautiful girls eating pizza at midnight

    I’m in an 18th century palazzo in the middle. Superb

    Sounds like The White Lotus. You could fancy yourself as the character played by Christopher from The Sopranos

    It’s infinitely better than Taormina. Its sketchy and strewn with garbage and covered with graffiti and full of old men with string vests shouting across tiny laundry-hung alleys at hot girls in denim mini skirts with boyfriends who look like models for the ignudi on the Sistine ceiling

    And I am sleeping under an authentic priceless 18th century plaster ceiling and it’s costing me €70 a night rather than €700 in Taormina

    Please don’t quote this comment when I go out tomorrow night and get murdered by muggers
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160
    Leon said:

    I think democracy is pretty much finished

    Too bleak.

    But certainly well on the back foot.

    Either we defend it or it is lost.

    Defending it is going to cost us a very great deal.

    I have a feeling we are no longer in Kansas.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    It is also, according to the Express, “Europe’s most dangerous city”

    “Inside Europe’s most dangerous city plagued by carjackings, drug cartels and the mafia”

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1792458/Carjackings-drug-cartels-mafia-Europe-most-dangerous-city
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    Sumption in conversation with Freddie Sayers at UnHerd.

    "Jonathan Sumption: War, lockdowns and lessons from the past"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naDOp8PMb_I
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,471
    Was in London today taking my son out for his birthday. Wandered down Whitehall, the rally stage was within spitting distance of number ten. It was remarkable how close it was. I came away feeling that we have something special in this country, which we would be foolish to take for granted.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
    He will defend white people. That is the perception
    They feel all threatened, do they, white people in America?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Gosh

    Hmm. It really is quite mafia-y



  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
    He will defend white people. That is the perception
    They feel all threatened, do they, white people in America?
    Seeing as you never travel beyond fucking Dungeness because you’re too scared, what the fuck would you know?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    "US tells Sunak to ban Iran’s terrorist forces

    State department's call to proscribe Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps comes amid growing suggestions Tehran was complicit in Israel attack" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/21/us-rishi-sunak-ban-iran-islamic-revolutionary-guard-terror/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,974
    edited October 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    Does Trump have plans to abolish elections if he wins again? I wasn't aware he did.
    It will be more subtle than that. But be in no doubt. The people behind him are planning the end of democracy in America.

    Pretending this isn't happening is a profound mistake.

    Europe needs to prepare.

    Europe includes Putin and Meloni, Salvini and Farage and Le Pen of course, all of whom admire Trump, it is not all centrist liberals like you
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
    He will defend white people. That is the perception
    They feel all threatened, do they, white people in America?
    Seeing as you never travel beyond fucking Dungeness because you’re too scared, what the fuck would you know?
    That's why I'm asking the expert. What's the distressing problem these white people in America have on account of being white? It sounds like a big story.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    edited October 2023
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    Does Trump have plans to abolish elections if he wins again? I wasn't aware he did.
    Oh, he has no intention of abolishing the elections. Dictators find elections useful, as they give a spurious legitimacy to the regime and prevent sanctions or legal punishment from other countries. The point is to appoint those who count the votes and control the results. Banning elections themselves is just too retro for words.

    https://www.waterstones.com/book/how-to-rig-an-election/nic-cheeseman/brian-klaas/9780300246650
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-to-rig-an-election/
    I don't see any of this. I don't support him incidentally. I'd like to see 2 new candidates from the main parties at next year's election.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903
    Jonathan said:

    Was in London today taking my son out for his birthday. Wandered down Whitehall, the rally stage was within spitting distance of number ten. It was remarkable how close it was. I came away feeling that we have something special in this country, which we would be foolish to take for granted.

    A disturbing number of PBers would have liked it banned. Some of whom have previously been quite passionate about free speech.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,030
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
    He will defend white people. That is the perception
    They feel all threatened, do they, white people in America?
    Seeing as you never travel beyond fucking Dungeness because you’re too scared, what the fuck would you know?
    That's why I'm asking the expert. What's the distressing problem these white people in America have on account of being white? It
    sounds like a big story.
    A lot of it is perception
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
    He will defend white people. That is the perception
    They feel all threatened, do they, white people in America?
    Seeing as you never travel beyond fucking Dungeness because you’re too scared, what the fuck would you know?
    That's why I'm asking the expert. What's the distressing problem these white people in America have on account of being white? It
    sounds like a big story.
    A lot of it is perception
    I rather suspect so.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,030
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
    He will defend white people. That is the perception
    They feel all threatened, do they, white people in America?
    Seeing as you never travel beyond fucking Dungeness because you’re too scared, what the fuck would you know?
    That's why I'm asking the expert. What's the distressing problem these white people in America have on account of being white? It
    sounds like a big story.
    A lot of it is perception
    I rather suspect so.
    Doesn’t mean you can ignore it

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160
    Leon said:

    It is also, according to the Express, “Europe’s most dangerous city”

    “Inside Europe’s most dangerous city plagued by carjackings, drug cartels and the mafia”

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1792458/Carjackings-drug-cartels-mafia-Europe-most-dangerous-city

    Somewhere in Sweden?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    edited October 2023
    Jonathan said:

    Was in London today taking my son out for his birthday. Wandered down Whitehall, the rally stage was within spitting distance of number ten. It was remarkable how close it was. I came away feeling that we have something special in this country, which we would be foolish to take for granted.

    We used to be more civilised, when anyone could walk up to the door of number 10 Downing Street, which was possible as recently as 1982.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/30th-anniversary-of-the-10-downing-street-gates-32891/
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Catania is also really NOISY as well as filthy and dangerous and full of beautiful girls eating pizza at midnight

    I’m in an 18th century palazzo in the middle. Superb

    Sounds like The White Lotus. You could fancy yourself as the character played by Christopher from The Sopranos

    It’s infinitely better than Taormina. Its sketchy and strewn with garbage and covered with graffiti and full of old men with string vests shouting across tiny laundry-hung alleys at hot girls in denim mini skirts with boyfriends who look like models for the ignudi on the Sistine ceiling

    And I am sleeping under an authentic priceless 18th century plaster ceiling and it’s costing me €70 a night rather than €700 in Taormina

    Please don’t quote this comment when I go out tomorrow night and get murdered by muggers
    I have flown to Catania, but jumped in a cab to Milazzo. The cabbie had Eng vs Sweden in Euro 2012 on! A 3-2 win

    The next day, my gf and I got a boat to the Aeolian Islands, for a terrible holiday on which we rowed almost constantly
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    Was in London today taking my son out for his birthday. Wandered down Whitehall, the rally stage was within spitting distance of number ten. It was remarkable how close it was. I came away feeling that we have something special in this country, which we would be foolish to take for granted.

    We used to be more civilised, when anyone could walk up to the door of number 10 Downing Street.
    I think these days that's unsustainable. In past years getting to London (and specifically that bit) was expensive and not easy, and there were far fewer people. Nowadays (despite Sunak regenerating into Beeching II) an absolute stack of people can turn up and mobhand the place, plus - PB has no memory - the IRA or some variant tried to mortar the place within living memory. There are many things I can criticise the Government for but greater security is not one of them
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826
    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    Well if your Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute imagine what it's like for the two million people who are living in Gaza. That must be unimaginable.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,163
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Catania is also really NOISY as well as filthy and dangerous and full of beautiful girls eating pizza at midnight

    I’m in an 18th century palazzo in the middle. Superb

    Sounds like The White Lotus. You could fancy yourself as the character played by Christopher from The Sopranos

    It’s infinitely better than Taormina. Its sketchy and strewn with garbage and covered with graffiti and full of old men with string vests shouting across tiny laundry-hung alleys at hot girls in denim mini skirts with boyfriends who look like models for the ignudi on the Sistine ceiling

    And I am sleeping under an authentic priceless 18th century plaster ceiling and it’s costing me €70 a night rather than €700 in Taormina

    Please don’t quote this comment when I go out tomorrow night and get murdered by muggers
    I have flown to Catania, but jumped in a cab to Milazzo. The cabbie had Eng vs Sweden in Euro 2012 on! A 3-2 win

    The next day, my gf and I got a boat to the Aeolian Islands, for a terrible holiday on which we rowed almost constantly
    Coxless pairs?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843
    Andy_JS said:

    "US tells Sunak to ban Iran’s terrorist forces

    State department's call to proscribe Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps comes amid growing suggestions Tehran was complicit in Israel attack" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/21/us-rishi-sunak-ban-iran-islamic-revolutionary-guard-terror/

    Hang on, we can’t call the military of a nation state terrorists. That’s just bonkers. If the military of a nation state attacks you or your allies, you don’t pursue them as terrorists, you go to war against the country. The “terrorist” category exists for when that isn’t workable.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646
    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    Was in London today taking my son out for his birthday. Wandered down Whitehall, the rally stage was within spitting distance of number ten. It was remarkable how close it was. I came away feeling that we have something special in this country, which we would be foolish to take for granted.

    A disturbing number of PBers would have liked it banned. Some of whom have previously been quite passionate about free speech.
    #PBfreespeech
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Catania is also really NOISY as well as filthy and dangerous and full of beautiful girls eating pizza at midnight

    I’m in an 18th century palazzo in the middle. Superb

    Sounds like The White Lotus. You could fancy yourself as the character played by Christopher from The Sopranos

    It’s infinitely better than Taormina. Its sketchy and strewn with garbage and covered with graffiti and full of old men with string vests shouting across tiny laundry-hung alleys at hot girls in denim mini skirts with boyfriends who look like models for the ignudi on the Sistine ceiling

    And I am sleeping under an authentic priceless 18th century plaster ceiling and it’s costing me €70 a night rather than €700 in Taormina

    Please don’t quote this comment when I go out tomorrow night and get murdered by muggers
    I have flown to Catania, but jumped in a cab to Milazzo. The cabbie had Eng vs Sweden in Euro 2012 on! A 3-2 win

    The next day, my gf and I got a boat to the Aeolian Islands, for a terrible holiday on which we rowed almost constantly
    Coxless pairs?
    No I think isam defintely has a...oh, sorry. That's not what you meant. As you were (whistles embarrassedly)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Catania is also really NOISY as well as filthy and dangerous and full of beautiful girls eating pizza at midnight

    I’m in an 18th century palazzo in the middle. Superb

    Sounds like The White Lotus. You could fancy yourself as the character played by Christopher from The Sopranos

    It’s infinitely better than Taormina. Its sketchy and strewn with garbage and covered with graffiti and full of old men with string vests shouting across tiny laundry-hung alleys at hot girls in denim mini skirts with boyfriends who look like models for the ignudi on the Sistine ceiling

    And I am sleeping under an authentic priceless 18th century plaster ceiling and it’s costing me €70 a night rather than €700 in Taormina

    Please don’t quote this comment when I go out tomorrow night and get murdered by muggers
    I have flown to Catania, but jumped in a cab to Milazzo. The cabbie had Eng vs Sweden in Euro 2012 on! A 3-2 win

    The next day, my gf and I got a boat to the Aeolian Islands, for a terrible holiday on which we rowed almost constantly
    Coxless pairs?
    Haha - a rowing holiday would have been better
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903
    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    edited October 2023
    Roger said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    Well if your Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute imagine what it's like for the two million people who are living in Gaza. That must be unimaginable.
    Why have you changed the subject? We're talking about Jewish people in London.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,843
    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903
    kyf_100 said:

    Roger said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    Well if your Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute imagine what it's like for the two million people who are living in Gaza. That must be unimaginable.
    I do not advocate for violence against innocent civilians. I don't unequivocally support every action Israel takes. But nor am I prepared to be silent when I see people I thought were my friends advocating for the extermination of all Jews on social media, which I've seen, several times, this week.

    Hamas waltzed into kibbutzes and slaughtered unarmed, defenceless people. They took hostages, they killed children. The situation in the middle east is complex and multifaceted, but in terms of some people I thought were friends, now baying for Jewish blood, I feel compelled to speak up. I can do no less. The Nazi war machine was enabled because ordinary, decent people did not speak up.

    Biden is spot on here: https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1712229613936460083

    Never again.
    Calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very serious criminal offence. Your ex friends are heading for trouble.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
    He will defend white people. That is the perception
    They feel all threatened, do they, white people in America?
    Seeing as you never travel beyond fucking Dungeness because you’re too scared, what the fuck would you know?
    That's why I'm asking the expert. What's the distressing problem these white people in America have on account of being white? It
    sounds like a big story.
    A lot of it is perception
    I rather suspect so.
    Doesn’t mean you can ignore it
    Or should pander to it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903
    edited October 2023
    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    Hmm. But I could suggest it's the other way too. That some people side completely and unequivocally with Israel because they view them as people like us, and people like us, white people, are superior to those backward arabs. This doesn't have a fancy name like critical race theory. It's just called racism.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    Hmm. But I could suggest it's the other way too. That some people side completely and unequivocally with Israel because they view them as people like us, and people like us, white people, are superior to those backward arabs. This doesn't have a fancy name like critical race theory. It's just called racism.
    Most racists are anti-Jewish and anti-Israel.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
    He will defend white people. That is the perception

    The only white people Trump will seek to defend are his fellow defendants in the Trump family. By pardoning them if he becomes President again.

    But I think the scales are falling from the eyes of his voters.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,887
    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    Hunt has already been selected for one of the new Surrey seats (I think the one based around Godalming), which has a notional majority of about 7,500 over the LibDems. He is also regarded as a solid constituency MP....but he would face a tough fight.

    I think the prospect of losing to smug jeering LDs as he is humiliated on stage as he loses the seat is too much for him to risk, even losing to Labour is better than losing to the LDs for most Tories.

    Ask Chris Patten when he lost Bath in 1992 to them despite being Tory Party chairman
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-29932217
    I thought Patten lost to the Lib Dems because he was the Tory Party chairman.
  • MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fairly remarkable for a Chancellor to decide, while in office, that he won't run at the next election.

    Not that surprising if his party is heading for opposition, his prospects of being next party leader are near zero and he has the chance to make more money in the private sector outside
    I don't see why he remains in position now, if this is his attitude. There's no long term commitment to the British economy - no plan to return it to prosperity. The Chancellor should at least be pretending to be committed long term, whether it's likely that his party will remain in office or not. I can't remember similar circumstances in my lifetime.
    He is committed to reducing the deficit and inflation and as he is not standing for re election does not need to worry about being popular (albeit the Tory manifesto may still propose tax cuts even if he won't)
    Politicians wanting to do popular things so they get re-elected is a feature of democracy, not a bug. Hunt's plan to asphyxiate the economy under a record breaking tax burden whilst he continues to piss the money away on an unreformed state and then fuck off at the next election is unprecedented and despicable. He should stand down as Chancellor immediately.
    As far as I’m concerned, the current chancellor needs to run in a GE because the governments economic policy is on the line in a campaign.

    If Hunt is going to quit at the GE then he should have the good grace to quit as Chancellor.
    He has issued a denial of sorts, but it's likely he'll get pressed on this in interviews, and if he does plan to step down 'at' the next election (as opposed to 'before' it) he'll be asked if he plans to fight the election, and then either need to commit to a brazen lie, or his 'clever' wording is going to look really bad.

    Any authority he has as Chancellor is seriously called into question by this.
    I'm wondering how many of the current cabinet with either

    a - Quit.
    or
    b - Lose their seat.
    It has been suggested some Conservatives have been reluctant to serve in order to start the Acoba timer on taking new jobs, although as Boris (who else?) showed, Acoba is a paper tiger.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66028657
  • biggles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "US tells Sunak to ban Iran’s terrorist forces

    State department's call to proscribe Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps comes amid growing suggestions Tehran was complicit in Israel attack" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/21/us-rishi-sunak-ban-iran-islamic-revolutionary-guard-terror/

    Hang on, we can’t call the military of a nation state terrorists. That’s just bonkers. If the military of a nation state attacks you or your allies, you don’t pursue them as terrorists, you go to war against the country. The “terrorist” category exists for when that isn’t workable.
    The proscription or otherwise of the IRGC has been going on for ages. Broadly speaking, the Home Secretary is for, and the Foreign Secretary against, proscription. Sfaict it's academic anyway since the IRGC is sanctioned, but IANADiplomat.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,477
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Roger said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    Well if your Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute imagine what it's like for the two million people who are living in Gaza. That must be unimaginable.
    Why have you changed the subject? We're talking about Jewish people in London.
    My Jewish friends in London do not wear yarmulkes. Most Jews are not ultra-orthodox.

    The big problem in this country is, as previously suggested, that Israel flattening and blockading Gaza risks turning the public mood.
  • kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
  • Today, Sunday, is Cameron Derby Day. Aston Villa vs West Ham, 4.30.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,843

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
  • kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,843

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,477
    edited October 2023
    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
  • Could the UK's tides help wean us off fossil fuels?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67170625
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006

    Could the UK's tides help wean us off fossil fuels?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67170625

    This has been mooted for about 50 years.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,843

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
    I do not believe that flattening Gaza is proportionate response to the terrorist attacks of two weeks ago. Then again, I don't know people who were murdered int those attacks, but I have friends whose relatives were. One hopes that cooler heads will prevail, but Hamas are currently holding hundreds of Jewish hostages, and treat their own civilians as little more than human shields. If the worst happens, it is a tragedy. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind and all that, but I might think differently if I'd lost people in a horrific terrorist attack.

    The lack of support for Israel in the west, plus the uncritical support for Hamas, I do believe is a direct consequence of CRT.
  • kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
    I do not believe that flattening Gaza is proportionate response to the terrorist attacks of two weeks ago. Then again, I don't know people who were murdered int those attacks, but I have friends whose relatives were. One hopes that cooler heads will prevail, but Hamas are currently holding hundreds of Jewish hostages, and treat their own civilians as little more than human shields. If the worst happens, it is a tragedy. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind and all that, but I might think differently if I'd lost people in a horrific terrorist attack.

    The lack of support for Israel in the west, plus the uncritical support for Hamas, I do believe is a direct consequence of CRT.
    Israel is supported in the West. The Royal Navy and, at a far greater scale, the United States Navy have moved to support Israel. They are far more significant than a few thousand protestors exploited by extremists, and a rogue tube driver.

    CRT may be a bad thing, but that does not mean it is related to every other bad thing.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,843

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
    I do not believe that flattening Gaza is proportionate response to the terrorist attacks of two weeks ago. Then again, I don't know people who were murdered int those attacks, but I have friends whose relatives were. One hopes that cooler heads will prevail, but Hamas are currently holding hundreds of Jewish hostages, and treat their own civilians as little more than human shields. If the worst happens, it is a tragedy. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind and all that, but I might think differently if I'd lost people in a horrific terrorist attack.

    The lack of support for Israel in the west, plus the uncritical support for Hamas, I do believe is a direct consequence of CRT.
    Israel is supported in the West. The Royal Navy and, at a far greater scale, the United States Navy have moved to support Israel. They are far more significant than a few thousand protestors exploited by extremists, and a rogue tube driver.

    CRT may be a bad thing, but that does not mean it is related to every other bad thing.
    Supported by Western governments, but YouGov polling suggests rather differently in terms of western populations.

    There is a solution here: Hamas hand over all the hostages, and preferably all those involved in the attacks, to face trial. I think that would avoid further bloodshed. I think any invasion of Gaza is likely to involve many more Jewish casualties, as well as the death of innocent Palestinian civilians.

    But that's not on the menu, because Hamas are a terrorist organisation no different than ISIS et al. Their stated aim is the genocide of the Jewish people. They started this, with what can only be called an unprecedented terrorist attack. If Israel choose to end it in the most bloody way possible, I won't support that, but I won't condemn them either, nor does it excuse the anti-semitic attitudes that have been allowed to run free because we live in a liberal democracy.

    I do not advocate murder or violence. I certainly don't advocate genocide. Hamas do.
  • kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
    I do not believe that flattening Gaza is proportionate response to the terrorist attacks of two weeks ago. Then again, I don't know people who were murdered int those attacks, but I have friends whose relatives were. One hopes that cooler heads will prevail, but Hamas are currently holding hundreds of Jewish hostages, and treat their own civilians as little more than human shields. If the worst happens, it is a tragedy. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind and all that, but I might think differently if I'd lost people in a horrific terrorist attack.

    The lack of support for Israel in the west, plus the uncritical support for Hamas, I do believe is a direct consequence of CRT.
    Israel is supported in the West. The Royal Navy and, at a far greater scale, the United States Navy have moved to support Israel. They are far more significant than a few thousand protestors exploited by extremists, and a rogue tube driver.

    CRT may be a bad thing, but that does not mean it is related to every other bad thing.
    Supported by Western governments, but YouGov polling suggests rather differently in terms of western populations.

    There is a solution here: Hamas hand over all the hostages, and preferably all those involved in the attacks, to face trial. I think that would avoid further bloodshed. I think any invasion of Gaza is likely to involve many more Jewish casualties, as well as the death of innocent Palestinian civilians.

    But that's not on the menu, because Hamas are a terrorist organisation no different than ISIS et al. Their stated aim is the genocide of the Jewish people. They started this, with what can only be called an unprecedented terrorist attack. If Israel choose to end it in the most bloody way possible, I won't support that, but I won't condemn them either, nor does it excuse the anti-semitic attitudes that have been allowed to run free because we live in a liberal democracy.

    I do not advocate murder or violence. I certainly don't advocate genocide. Hamas do.
    Hamas is another bad thing, irrespective of CRT.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,843

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
    I do not believe that flattening Gaza is proportionate response to the terrorist attacks of two weeks ago. Then again, I don't know people who were murdered int those attacks, but I have friends whose relatives were. One hopes that cooler heads will prevail, but Hamas are currently holding hundreds of Jewish hostages, and treat their own civilians as little more than human shields. If the worst happens, it is a tragedy. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind and all that, but I might think differently if I'd lost people in a horrific terrorist attack.

    The lack of support for Israel in the west, plus the uncritical support for Hamas, I do believe is a direct consequence of CRT.
    Israel is supported in the West. The Royal Navy and, at a far greater scale, the United States Navy have moved to support Israel. They are far more significant than a few thousand protestors exploited by extremists, and a rogue tube driver.

    CRT may be a bad thing, but that does not mean it is related to every other bad thing.
    Supported by Western governments, but YouGov polling suggests rather differently in terms of western populations.

    There is a solution here: Hamas hand over all the hostages, and preferably all those involved in the attacks, to face trial. I think that would avoid further bloodshed. I think any invasion of Gaza is likely to involve many more Jewish casualties, as well as the death of innocent Palestinian civilians.

    But that's not on the menu, because Hamas are a terrorist organisation no different than ISIS et al. Their stated aim is the genocide of the Jewish people. They started this, with what can only be called an unprecedented terrorist attack. If Israel choose to end it in the most bloody way possible, I won't support that, but I won't condemn them either, nor does it excuse the anti-semitic attitudes that have been allowed to run free because we live in a liberal democracy.

    I do not advocate murder or violence. I certainly don't advocate genocide. Hamas do.
    Hamas is another bad thing, irrespective of CRT.
    And yet I do believe that CRT gave us images such as this https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1715792860241363377

    Along with the refusal of Harvard to immediately condemn the attacks, etc, as mentioned downthread.

    CRT is a toxic ideology that sees "white" as bad and others as good, and I believe it's a direct contributing factor to some people's unconditional support of Hamas in the west. That is a theory, conjecture - not backed by peer reviewed study. It is my opinion. You are welcome to disagree with it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
    I do not believe that flattening Gaza is proportionate response to the terrorist attacks of two weeks ago. Then again, I don't know people who were murdered int those attacks, but I have friends whose relatives were. One hopes that cooler heads will prevail, but Hamas are currently holding hundreds of Jewish hostages, and treat their own civilians as little more than human shields. If the worst happens, it is a tragedy. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind and all that, but I might think differently if I'd lost people in a horrific terrorist attack.

    The lack of support for Israel in the west, plus the uncritical support for Hamas, I do believe is a direct consequence of CRT.
    Israel is supported in the West. The Royal Navy and, at a far greater scale, the United States Navy have moved to support Israel. They are far more significant than a few thousand protestors exploited by extremists, and a rogue tube driver.

    CRT may be a bad thing, but that does not mean it is related to every other bad thing.
    Supported by Western governments, but YouGov polling suggests rather differently in terms of western populations.

    There is a solution here: Hamas hand over all the hostages, and preferably all those involved in the attacks, to face trial. I think that would avoid further bloodshed. I think any invasion of Gaza is likely to involve many more Jewish casualties, as well as the death of innocent Palestinian civilians.

    But that's not on the menu, because Hamas are a terrorist organisation no different than ISIS et al. Their stated aim is the genocide of the Jewish people. They started this, with what can only be called an unprecedented terrorist attack. If Israel choose to end it in the most bloody way possible, I won't support that, but I won't condemn them either, nor does it excuse the anti-semitic attitudes that have been allowed to run free because we live in a liberal democracy.

    I do not advocate murder or violence. I certainly don't advocate genocide. Hamas do.
    Hamas is another bad thing, irrespective of CRT.
    And yet I do believe that CRT gave us images such as this https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1715792860241363377

    Along with the refusal of Harvard to immediately condemn the attacks, etc, as mentioned downthread.

    CRT is a toxic ideology that sees "white" as bad and others as good, and I believe it's a direct contributing factor to some people's unconditional support of Hamas in the west. That is a theory, conjecture - not backed by peer reviewed study. It is my opinion. You are welcome to disagree with it.
    More than that: CRT is itself deeply racist and, it could be argued, anti-Semitic in itself.
  • kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
    I do not believe that flattening Gaza is proportionate response to the terrorist attacks of two weeks ago. Then again, I don't know people who were murdered int those attacks, but I have friends whose relatives were. One hopes that cooler heads will prevail, but Hamas are currently holding hundreds of Jewish hostages, and treat their own civilians as little more than human shields. If the worst happens, it is a tragedy. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind and all that, but I might think differently if I'd lost people in a horrific terrorist attack.

    The lack of support for Israel in the west, plus the uncritical support for Hamas, I do believe is a direct consequence of CRT.
    Israel is supported in the West. The Royal Navy and, at a far greater scale, the United States Navy have moved to support Israel. They are far more significant than a few thousand protestors exploited by extremists, and a rogue tube driver.

    CRT may be a bad thing, but that does not mean it is related to every other bad thing.
    Supported by Western governments, but YouGov polling suggests rather differently in terms of western populations.

    There is a solution here: Hamas hand over all the hostages, and preferably all those involved in the attacks, to face trial. I think that would avoid further bloodshed. I think any invasion of Gaza is likely to involve many more Jewish casualties, as well as the death of innocent Palestinian civilians.

    But that's not on the menu, because Hamas are a terrorist organisation no different than ISIS et al. Their stated aim is the genocide of the Jewish people. They started this, with what can only be called an unprecedented terrorist attack. If Israel choose to end it in the most bloody way possible, I won't support that, but I won't condemn them either, nor does it excuse the anti-semitic attitudes that have been allowed to run free because we live in a liberal democracy.

    I do not advocate murder or violence. I certainly don't advocate genocide. Hamas do.
    Hamas is another bad thing, irrespective of CRT.
    And yet I do believe that CRT gave us images such as this https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1715792860241363377

    Along with the refusal of Harvard to immediately condemn the attacks, etc, as mentioned downthread.

    CRT is a toxic ideology that sees "white" as bad and others as good, and I believe it's a direct contributing factor to some people's unconditional support of Hamas in the west. That is a theory, conjecture - not backed by peer reviewed study. It is my opinion. You are welcome to disagree with it.
    It is not a question of agreeing or disagreeing. CRT is irrelevant to this new situation. Hamas slaughtering babies is independent of CRT. Israel flattening Gaza in response is also unrelated to CRT. The reactions of various groups on either side, likely whipped up by extremist agitators, have nothing to do with CRT.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    The second poll in this thread to suggest that too many young Americans don’t place much value on the peace and rights and freedoms that previous generations fought for?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,030
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Catania is also really NOISY as well as filthy and dangerous and full of beautiful girls eating pizza at midnight

    I’m in an 18th century palazzo in the middle. Superb

    Sounds like The White Lotus. You could fancy yourself as the character played by Christopher from The Sopranos

    It’s infinitely better than Taormina. Its sketchy and strewn with garbage and covered with graffiti and full of old men with string vests shouting across tiny laundry-hung alleys at hot girls in denim mini skirts with boyfriends who look like models for the ignudi on the Sistine ceiling

    And I am sleeping under an authentic priceless 18th century plaster ceiling and it’s costing me €70 a night rather than €700 in Taormina

    Please don’t quote this comment when I go out tomorrow night and get murdered by muggers
    I have flown to Catania, but jumped in a cab to Milazzo. The cabbie had Eng vs Sweden in Euro 2012 on! A 3-2 win

    The next day, my gf and I got a boat to the
    Aeolian Islands, for a terrible holiday on which we rowed almost constantly
    I suppose that’s one way to get between islands!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,921
    edited October 2023
    Interesting poll, though it's not exactly news that lots of 20-year-olds are idiots with no judgment.

    As, apparently, are some 70 year olds.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,030
    edited October 2023
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    darkage said:

    Young americans who want to destroy their future as free citizens in a democratic country.

    Just f*cking incredible.

    "Pollsters found Trump performing better than Biden among the youngest voters, leading the incumbent among 18-to-29-year-olds by about 2 points, 45.2 percent to 42.9 percent. The former president also leads among 30-to-39-year-olds by about 11 points, 49.6 percent to 38.5 percent."

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4265622-trump-leads-biden-builds-support-among-young-voters-poll/

    This isn't too difficult to understand. People want a change from the 'woke' stuff.
    But what 'stuff' of any value whatsoever do they think Donald Trump will provide? That's the baffling part. And it truly is.
    He will defend white people. That is the perception
    They feel all threatened, do they, white people in America?
    Seeing as you never travel beyond fucking Dungeness because you’re too scared, what the fuck would you know?
    That's why I'm asking the expert. What's the distressing problem these white people in America have on account of being white? It
    sounds like a big story.
    A lot of it is perception
    I rather suspect so.
    Doesn’t mean you can ignore it

    Or should pander to it.
    The fundamental problem in most western countries is a disconnect between the ruling clique and many people.

    For example, in the US they look at stats that, for example, show African Americans are economically worse off. So they put in programmes to assist. That’s good.

    But then they ignore that proportion of white working class individuals who are also struggling. They do nothing to help. May be it’s too expensive (too many recipients) or too geographically disperse (too many stakeholders). Or may be they regard them as “undeserving poor” because they don’t have any visible points of difference (principally colour). They mock them as “trailer trash” and “rednecks” - they laugh at their culture and religion (“clinging to guns and bibles”) and regard them as “deplorables”

    Can you understand why these voters might decide to support someone else?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,660
    edited October 2023
    Some good flag action here in Tbilisi




    The West is not dead in the Caucasus.

    On Israel-Palestine I think we’re in that tense waiting time and people will make up their minds once Israel’s actual intentions towards Gaza are clear.

    They’ve not yet invaded. I don’t expect them to “flatten Gaza”, I think they will do a Golan heights (or perhaps more accurately a British army in Belfast during the troubles) and occupy a buffer zone, pushing out Hamas and rocket launching opportunities further South but not attempting to displace the population.

    Not exactly peace and love, but understandable given the pogrom 2 weeks ago.

    I may be wrong: if I am, then my views on the situation will change, as will many others.

    Don’t forget the noisy protesters are noisy because they’re protesting, not because they represent majority opinion here.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
    I do not believe that flattening Gaza is proportionate response to the terrorist attacks of two weeks ago. Then again, I don't know people who were murdered int those attacks, but I have friends whose relatives were. One hopes that cooler heads will prevail, but Hamas are currently holding hundreds of Jewish hostages, and treat their own civilians as little more than human shields. If the worst happens, it is a tragedy. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind and all that, but I might think differently if I'd lost people in a horrific terrorist attack.

    The lack of support for Israel in the west, plus the uncritical support for Hamas, I do believe is a direct consequence of CRT.
    Israel is supported in the West. The Royal Navy and, at a far greater scale, the United States Navy have moved to support Israel. They are far more significant than a few thousand protestors exploited by extremists, and a rogue tube driver.

    CRT may be a bad thing, but that does not mean it is related to every other bad thing.
    Supported by Western governments, but YouGov polling suggests rather differently in terms of western populations.

    There is a solution here: Hamas hand over all the hostages, and preferably all those involved in the attacks, to face trial. I think that would avoid further bloodshed. I think any invasion of Gaza is likely to involve many more Jewish casualties, as well as the death of innocent Palestinian civilians.

    But that's not on the menu, because Hamas are a terrorist organisation no different than ISIS et al. Their stated aim is the genocide of the Jewish people. They started this, with what can only be called an unprecedented terrorist attack. If Israel choose to end it in the most bloody way possible, I won't support that, but I won't condemn them either, nor does it excuse the anti-semitic attitudes that have been allowed to run free because we live in a liberal democracy.

    I do not advocate murder or violence. I certainly don't advocate genocide. Hamas do.
    Hamas is another bad thing, irrespective of CRT.
    I see that Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian suggests Netanyahu actively wanted Hamas control of Gaza because his strategy was to ensure the Palestinian voice was divided (with Fatah controlling the West Bank) so that no progress could ever be made toward two-state.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,030
    IanB2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
    I do not believe that flattening Gaza is proportionate response to the terrorist attacks of two weeks ago. Then again, I don't know people who were murdered int those attacks, but I have friends whose relatives were. One hopes that cooler heads will prevail, but Hamas are currently holding hundreds of Jewish hostages, and treat their own civilians as little more than human shields. If the worst happens, it is a tragedy. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind and all that, but I might think differently if I'd lost people in a horrific terrorist attack.

    The lack of support for Israel in the west, plus the uncritical support for Hamas, I do believe is a direct consequence of CRT.
    Israel is supported in the West. The Royal Navy and, at a far greater scale, the United States Navy have moved to support Israel. They are far more significant than a few thousand protestors exploited by extremists, and a rogue tube driver.

    CRT may be a bad thing, but that does not mean it is related to every other bad thing.
    Supported by Western governments, but YouGov polling suggests rather differently in terms of western populations.

    There is a solution here: Hamas hand over all the hostages, and preferably all those involved in the attacks, to face trial. I think that would avoid further bloodshed. I think any invasion of Gaza is likely to involve many more Jewish casualties, as well as the death of innocent Palestinian civilians.

    But that's not on the menu, because Hamas are a terrorist organisation no different than ISIS et al. Their stated aim is the genocide of the Jewish people. They started this, with what can only be called an unprecedented terrorist attack. If Israel choose to end it in the most bloody way possible, I won't support that, but I won't condemn them either, nor does it excuse the anti-semitic attitudes that have been allowed to run free because we live in a liberal democracy.

    I do not advocate murder or violence. I
    certainly don't advocate genocide. Hamas do.
    Hamas is another bad thing, irrespective of CRT.
    I see that Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian suggests Netanyahu actively wanted Hamas control of Gaza because his strategy was to ensure the Palestinian voice was divided (with Fatah controlling the West Bank) so that no progress could ever be made toward two-state.
    That’s been alleged by Netanyahu’s opponents for years
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    IanB2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It strikes me that the pro-Palestinian (not pro-Hamas) marches today, including a very large one in London, have been peaceful, with only a handful of arrests. I know it's a difficult situation, and controversial, but why can't we be more proud of the fact that we still allow free speech, and the right to protest, in our country?

    Perhaps because the protestors were openly calling for “jihad! Jihad! Jihad!” and the eradication of Israel, and the coppers did fuck all, yet if you put a piece of bacon on a mosque doorknob you get a year in jail? Perhaps that?
    Ah yes. That's the way.
    The double standards, in the press, in social media, etc, have been very revealing.

    Baddiel had a point with "Jews don't count".

    What it all comes down to is critical race theory. Jews are white, Palestinians are funny coloured, therefore Jews are automatically the oppressors. Never mind that Hamas have promised to wipe them off the face of the earth, nor that most of the middle east are taught that if the holocaust never happened, then it should have.

    My Jewish friends in London are terrified at the minute. Taking their children out of school, avoiding eating in kosher restaurants, hiding their Star of David or taking off their yarmulkes.

    As I have seen from numerous social media posts by my "friends" the last couple of weeks, the line between disliking Israel's actions in Palestine and calling for the extermination of all Jews is a very fine line indeed, one that several people I've known for decades and thought were sound have well and truly crossed.
    I don't think critical race theory has much to do with all this. Israel Gaza is a heated situation and there are people here in this country getting overwrought and hyperbolic and sometimes hateful. I can't stand prejudice against jews. I can't stand people talking about Palestinians as if they're expendable inferior beings. I'm seeing both those things I'm afraid.
    I entirely agree with you, apart from your first sentence. I think a lot of people have taken the position that Jews are bad and Hamas are on the side of the angels, because Jews are white, and Palestinians are not. One only needs to spend five minutes on BLM twitter to see that. Critical Race Theory and Anti-Semitism are arm in arm, here.
    I do not think that is right. For a start, Palestinians and Israelis are not two different races. It is more that some see Palestinians as oppressed or robbed of their homeland. If your CRT-based explanation were correct, the same sympathy for Palestinians would extend to Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis and so on, but it does not.
    The refusal of prominent US universities to condemn acts of terror (or doing it only latterly, after many large donors have pulled out in disgust) says otherwise. To borrow from Baddiel, Jews don't count. CRT is a disease, and I do believe it's partially responsible for the anti-semitism we see getting a free pass today.
    I too have Baddiel's book. Antisemitism is on the rise but CRT is an irrelevance.
    I respectfully disagree. The failure of many institutions to immediately condemn Hamas' terrorist atrocity is directly related to to the CRT theory that only "people of colour" can be oppressed, and anyone who is "white" is automatically an oppressor. Which ignores a thousand years or more of Jewish oppression at the hands of "real" whites.

    I do understand that mine is an opinion, or theory at best, and not gospel truth. But the evidence I present is how quickly the dividing lines have sprung up, with supporters of CRT almost universally treating Jews as oppressors. When any idiot can pick up a history book and see that the history of Jewish people has been one of oppression, often leading to outright murder.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/harvard-upenn-hamas-israel-students-donors.html

    As Williamglenn points out downthread, the attitudes of the very young should be seen as alarming here, in what should be a more nuanced debate. As a Jewish friend of mine said earlier this week, they are committed the 100% destruction of our people - it's in Hamas's charter. How do you meet that "half way"?

    To quote Hamas directly, "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

    It's an interesting starting point for negotiations...
    Back in the real world, do you not see that Israel flattening Gaza might be seen in a similar light? If you were a foreign agent charged with stirring up anti-Hamas or anti-Israeli feeling in the West, would you not start by shroud-waving? There is evidence that Hamas committed its outrages and slaughtered babies in order to provoke this reaction from Israel. Of course Israelis are righteously outraged, and we in the West along with them, but Israel's reaction has killed many innocents in Gaza, and this is being exploited to drive the anti-Israeli protests we have seen in Britain and elsewhere. It's not CRT which was around long before the 7th October.
    I do not believe that flattening Gaza is proportionate response to the terrorist attacks of two weeks ago. Then again, I don't know people who were murdered int those attacks, but I have friends whose relatives were. One hopes that cooler heads will prevail, but Hamas are currently holding hundreds of Jewish hostages, and treat their own civilians as little more than human shields. If the worst happens, it is a tragedy. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind and all that, but I might think differently if I'd lost people in a horrific terrorist attack.

    The lack of support for Israel in the west, plus the uncritical support for Hamas, I do believe is a direct consequence of CRT.
    Israel is supported in the West. The Royal Navy and, at a far greater scale, the United States Navy have moved to support Israel. They are far more significant than a few thousand protestors exploited by extremists, and a rogue tube driver.

    CRT may be a bad thing, but that does not mean it is related to every other bad thing.
    Supported by Western governments, but YouGov polling suggests rather differently in terms of western populations.

    There is a solution here: Hamas hand over all the hostages, and preferably all those involved in the attacks, to face trial. I think that would avoid further bloodshed. I think any invasion of Gaza is likely to involve many more Jewish casualties, as well as the death of innocent Palestinian civilians.

    But that's not on the menu, because Hamas are a terrorist organisation no different than ISIS et al. Their stated aim is the genocide of the Jewish people. They started this, with what can only be called an unprecedented terrorist attack. If Israel choose to end it in the most bloody way possible, I won't support that, but I won't condemn them either, nor does it excuse the anti-semitic attitudes that have been allowed to run free because we live in a liberal democracy.

    I do not advocate murder or violence. I
    certainly don't advocate genocide. Hamas do.
    Hamas is another bad thing, irrespective of CRT.
    I see that Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian suggests Netanyahu actively wanted Hamas control of Gaza because his strategy was to ensure the Palestinian voice was divided (with Fatah controlling the West Bank) so that no progress could ever be made toward two-state.
    That’s been alleged by Netanyahu’s opponents for years
    Freedland says: In March 2019, Netanyahu told his Likud colleagues: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    This thread is standing down at the next election

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,660
    It’s pretty clear Netanyahu is a wrongun. In the tiering of global bad guy national leaders I’d place him in tier 3.

    Tier 1: Putin, Khamenei, Kim Yong Un, Taliban, Hamas leadership, coup leaders in various Sahel countries

    Tier 2: Xi, Kagame, Myanmar junta, Lukashenko, MBS, Maduro

    Tier 3: Bibi, Erdogan, Modi, Orban, Trump

    Tier 4: all the various semi-populist somewhat corrupt but not so dangerous leaders around the world (I’d have put Johnson here if he were still PM)

    Tier 5: normal democratic politicians including ones we like or don’t like, from Truss to Rishi to Starmer to Macron to Biden.
This discussion has been closed.