Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

Braving a New World – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,688
edited October 2023 in General
imageBraving a New World – politicalbetting.com

Where does time go ? It struck me that the first quarter of this century is just over a year away and what 25 years it has been.

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • Options
    Test.
  • Options

    Test.

    That's our best hope after today.
  • Options
    RIP Bobby Charlton
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,591
    edited October 2023
    About third.

    I have sympathy for the header, but I would frame it as two items:

    1 - The West establishing an internal consistency with its values, in a way that fits in a changed world.
    2 - Recasting the relationship with other parts of the world as more of a partnership.

    I'd suggest that a question which is a good crucible to consider is what reform the UN Security Council should look like.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296
    MattW said:

    About third.

    In the same way England were about second best.
  • Options
    Great thread header!
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,986

    Great thread header!

    It is.
    But no mention of the role of the Internet and smartphones in all that has gone on.
    It's a very different world young people have grown up in.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited October 2023

    Great thread header!

    Nearly as good a header as this one....

    https://youtube.com/shorts/5YNYOws6oX0?si=N0Jnzbe0SHcR2_dN
  • Options

    RIP Bobby Charlton

    He visited my school once. I only got a glimpse of him through a window of the school library. He was sitting next to our head of PE, who had an identical haircut.
  • Options
    Looking at the video on Facebook, I hope that Alex Salmond has got sandbags
  • Options
    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,788
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A Cornish friend of mine who hasn’t been to London in many years just spent a week here

    His verdict

    “London is amazing. The architecture is stunted. But it’s like an incredible museum. It is infinitely interesting. I can see why you never moved away”

    Fair

    Its a brilliant place to visit! As long as you can go home again afterwards...

    It’s a brilliant place to live! As long as you don’t have to commute to an office and you can bug out in the winter
    HYUFD said:

    Liz Truss rumoured to be going into the Australian jungle for I'm a Celeb, following Matt Hancock's footsteps last year
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-12656307/Im-Celebrity-2023-line-rumoured.html

    Cue an exodus of snakes, crocodiles and other dangers to life…
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,247
    Good piece Alan. But what does Western politicians 'reconnecting with their electorate' look like?
  • Options
    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,899
    edited October 2023
    An interesting read, thank you.

    I would also mention that climate change is likely to provide an increasingly troublesome backdrop to these geopolitical shifts. Based on current policies, it is estimated that, in 2100, the earth will be around 2.7C warmer than pre-industrial times and the sea level around a metre higher and rising rapidly. Large areas of the world will be becoming uninhabitable as the climate shifts; conversely, other regions will become more welcoming. The pressures resulting from this will surely also have significant effects on future politics.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,964
    edited October 2023

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see that Israel are suggesting that after the conflict with Hamas is over they might cut all ties with Gaza.

    That's a good idea I think. Israel withdrew from the territory in 2005 but its still been considered internationally "occupied" territory with Israel responsible for providing water, electricity etc without much gratitude for that.

    Just cut all ties completely, say that Egypt or someone else can be responsible for Gaza if they like but that you won't be anymore.

    Gaza was part of Egypt before it was taken by Israel, it going back to being Egypt's responsibility may be the only way out of the cycle of violence. Not that Egypt would be happy to take it back, as the Palestinians have been so atrociously behaved as a group that nobody wants them unfortunately.

    Please give the hate speech a rest.
    Its remarkable that you're that far gone that you consider the suggestion Israel could or should disengage unilaterally from Gaza once the conflict is over as "hate speech".

    Which is part of the problem related to what Alanbrooke has written about, the West can have a place in the world and politicians do need to step up to the mark, but so too does the electorate.

    Currently too many in the electorate want to define anyone who disagrees with them on anything as "hateful" or "woke" or all kinds of other nonsense.

    Besides the worst autocratic extremes (like Trump not accepting democracy), we in the West have more that bind us together than drive us apart.

    I'd rather live in a nation where the party I support loses democratically, than wins via foul play and autocratic means.

    The western electorates, not just western politicians, need to value democracy and differences of opinion too.
    Although as you know I disagree with you about a lot on Israel/Palestine, there was nothing at all 'hateful' about your posting and Kamski's reponse is just weird. It is akin to those saying that blaming Netenyahu for a lot of the recent problems is anti-semitic when it is a view held by 4/5ths of the Israeli population and articulated daily by their leading newspapers.

    Both sides need to accept that their leaders have failed them.
  • Options
    Errhhh....

    Tube tannoy broadcasts pro-Palestine chant ahead of protest
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/21/palestine-protest-march-london-israel-tube-tannoy-chant/
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited October 2023
    Some good points but had we not invaded Iraq and Afghanistan Saddam would still be in power and now backing Putin and Bin Laden would still be alive. The Taliban were in power before we invaded anyway even if they have returned to power now. ISIS were a problem but have largely been pushed back.

    We are though certainly moving to a multi polar world, the US is no longer the supreme superpower as it was for most of the 20th century and the British Empire was for most of the 19th century. Instead China in particular is more or less the equal of the US in both economic and military terms and India is growing in economic terms too.

    100 years ago Europe had a bigger population than Africa, now Africa has a bigger population than Europe. Russia has declined also relatively, hence the US is now most concerned about Beijing rather than Moscow but can still be an irritant, as its invasion of Ukraine has shown
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,448
    kinabalu said:

    Good piece Alan. But what does Western politicians 'reconnecting with their electorate' look like?

    Rory Stewart was lambasted for walking across the constituency he was going to be a candidate for.

    This was apparently bigoted or something. Rather than driving through the nice bits in an SUV.

    It’s a thought. Something to try.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    Interesting, article @Alanbrooke.

    The sad conclusion I've reached is that - outside an enlightened minority - most people aren't that interested in democracy, just a system that delivers the goods. Of course, when the boot is on the other foot they'll wish they still had it, but by then it will be too late.

    If we want it to last, it has to keep delivering the goods.

    By definition, at the end of the day democracy will deliver the goods most people want it to, as they elect or throw out the government
  • Options
    "No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
    - Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079

    Great header. The Iraq war was I think a pivotal moment and a terrible unforced error by the West (or at least the US and UK - France and Germany recognised the mistake at the time and most other Western nations kep their distance). Complete hubris from the Neocons who thought they had the capacity to reshape the world by force - and a pretty cynical exploitation of the tragedy of 9/11 to do so, too. A lot of the nihilistic attitudes towards politics can be traced back to 2003 - probably contributed to the idiocy of the Brexit vote. Plenty of people here knew it was a mistake at the time, of course. It was shocking to me that people couldn't see it for what it was.

    I don't think the post 9/11 failure can be reduced to just the Iraq war. Even if that hadn't happened, many other aspects of our response look in retrospect to be naive or counter-productive.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,649
    It's an interesting header, though I too don't really understand the point if the last paragraph.

    I'd also point out that one of the examples cited - South Korea - is arguably only what it is because of a de facto occupation by the US (albeit with the cooperation of the South Koreans) followed by half a century or so of their engagement and influence.
  • Options

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see that Israel are suggesting that after the conflict with Hamas is over they might cut all ties with Gaza.

    That's a good idea I think. Israel withdrew from the territory in 2005 but its still been considered internationally "occupied" territory with Israel responsible for providing water, electricity etc without much gratitude for that.

    Just cut all ties completely, say that Egypt or someone else can be responsible for Gaza if they like but that you won't be anymore.

    Gaza was part of Egypt before it was taken by Israel, it going back to being Egypt's responsibility may be the only way out of the cycle of violence. Not that Egypt would be happy to take it back, as the Palestinians have been so atrociously behaved as a group that nobody wants them unfortunately.

    Please give the hate speech a rest.
    Its remarkable that you're that far gone that you consider the suggestion Israel could or should disengage unilaterally from Gaza once the conflict is over as "hate speech".

    Which is part of the problem related to what Alanbrooke has written about, the West can have a place in the world and politicians do need to step up to the mark, but so too does the electorate.

    Currently too many in the electorate want to define anyone who disagrees with them on anything as "hateful" or "woke" or all kinds of other nonsense.

    Besides the worst autocratic extremes (like Trump not accepting democracy), we in the West have more that bind us together than drive us apart.

    I'd rather live in a nation where the party I support loses democratically, than wins via foul play and autocratic means.

    The western electorates, not just western politicians, need to value democracy and differences of opinion too.
    Although as you know I disagree with you about a lot on Israel/Palestine, there was nothing at all 'hateful' about your posting and Kamski's reponse is just weird. It is akin to those saying that blaming Netenyahu for a lot of the recent problems is anti-semitic when it is a view held by 4/5ths of the Israeli population and articulated daily by their leading newspapers.

    Both sides need to accept that their leaders have failed them.
    I think it was the generalization 'Palestinians have been so atrociously behaved as a group' that caused the objection.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see that Israel are suggesting that after the conflict with Hamas is over they might cut all ties with Gaza.

    That's a good idea I think. Israel withdrew from the territory in 2005 but its still been considered internationally "occupied" territory with Israel responsible for providing water, electricity etc without much gratitude for that.

    Just cut all ties completely, say that Egypt or someone else can be responsible for Gaza if they like but that you won't be anymore.

    Gaza was part of Egypt before it was taken by Israel, it going back to being Egypt's responsibility may be the only way out of the cycle of violence. Not that Egypt would be happy to take it back, as the Palestinians have been so atrociously behaved as a group that nobody wants them unfortunately.

    Please give the hate speech a rest.
    Its remarkable that you're that far gone that you consider the suggestion Israel could or should disengage unilaterally from Gaza once the conflict is over as "hate speech".

    Which is part of the problem related to what Alanbrooke has written about, the West can have a place in the world and politicians do need to step up to the mark, but so too does the electorate.

    Currently too many in the electorate want to define anyone who disagrees with them on anything as "hateful" or "woke" or all kinds of other nonsense.

    Besides the worst autocratic extremes (like Trump not accepting democracy), we in the West have more that bind us together than drive us apart.

    I'd rather live in a nation where the party I support loses democratically, than wins via foul play and autocratic means.

    The western electorates, not just western politicians, need to value democracy and differences of opinion too.
    I didn’t follow the references to “hate speech” either.

    In an era of social media, it seems no case can ever be sufficiently overstated with terms like “hate”, “genocide”, “violence”, being thrown about inappropriately.

    And, good header.
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    sarissa said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A Cornish friend of mine who hasn’t been to London in many years just spent a week here

    His verdict

    “London is amazing. The architecture is stunted. But it’s like an incredible museum. It is infinitely interesting. I can see why you never moved away”

    Fair

    Its a brilliant place to visit! As long as you can go home again afterwards...

    It’s a brilliant place to live! As long as you don’t have to commute to an office and you can bug out in the winter
    HYUFD said:

    Liz Truss rumoured to be going into the Australian jungle for I'm a Celeb, following Matt Hancock's footsteps last year
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-12656307/Im-Celebrity-2023-line-rumoured.html

    Cue an exodus of snakes, crocodiles and other dangers to life…
    Would Liz loose the Conservative wip as a result?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,171
    Thanks Alanbrooke. A century as a unit of historical time is arbitrary, just a nice round number. But now it can actually be understood as something meaningful as it corresponds roughly to a maximal life span, one quarter of which is one generation. So, we're talking 'bout our generation, and hopecasting the next three. And our hopes are borne by this generation, as Miranda in The Tempest, says, “O brave new world, that has such people in it!”
  • Options
    Taz said:
    That’s Speedo Mick, lifelong Evertonian.

    His brother died at Hillsborough and every Merseyside derby at Anfield he sits in the Kop taking his brother’s seat.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,247

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see that Israel are suggesting that after the conflict with Hamas is over they might cut all ties with Gaza.

    That's a good idea I think. Israel withdrew from the territory in 2005 but its still been considered internationally "occupied" territory with Israel responsible for providing water, electricity etc without much gratitude for that.

    Just cut all ties completely, say that Egypt or someone else can be responsible for Gaza if they like but that you won't be anymore.

    Gaza was part of Egypt before it was taken by Israel, it going back to being Egypt's responsibility may be the only way out of the cycle of violence. Not that Egypt would be happy to take it back, as the Palestinians have been so atrociously behaved as a group that nobody wants them unfortunately.

    Please give the hate speech a rest.
    Its remarkable that you're that far gone that you consider the suggestion Israel could or should disengage unilaterally from Gaza once the conflict is over as "hate speech".

    Which is part of the problem related to what Alanbrooke has written about, the West can have a place in the world and politicians do need to step up to the mark, but so too does the electorate.

    Currently too many in the electorate want to define anyone who disagrees with them on anything as "hateful" or "woke" or all kinds of other nonsense.

    Besides the worst autocratic extremes (like Trump not accepting democracy), we in the West have more that bind us together than drive us apart.

    I'd rather live in a nation where the party I support loses democratically, than wins via foul play and autocratic means.

    The western electorates, not just western politicians, need to value democracy and differences of opinion too.
    Although as you know I disagree with you about a lot on Israel/Palestine, there was nothing at all 'hateful' about your posting and Kamski's reponse is just weird. It is akin to those saying that blaming Netenyahu for a lot of the recent problems is anti-semitic when it is a view held by 4/5ths of the Israeli population and articulated daily by their leading newspapers.

    Both sides need to accept that their leaders have failed them.
    Bart keeps saying how kind the Israelis are to the Palestinians, how they bend over backwards for them, eg supplying Gaza with all the basics of life, food and water, and how bloody ungrateful those Palestinians are, how it's no surprise nobody wants them, blah blah.

    It's ugly and ignorant and I think is what triggered kamski's 'hate speech' retort. But I won't speak for him.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,247

    kinabalu said:

    Good piece Alan. But what does Western politicians 'reconnecting with their electorate' look like?

    Rory Stewart was lambasted for walking across the constituency he was going to be a candidate for.

    This was apparently bigoted or something. Rather than driving through the nice bits in an SUV.

    It’s a thought. Something to try.
    Alan hates Rory Stewart so I don't think he means that.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,198

    Taz said:
    That’s Speedo Mick, lifelong Evertonian.

    His brother died at Hillsborough and every Merseyside derby at Anfield he sits in the Kop taking his brother’s seat.
    Magic
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007

    Interesting, article @Alanbrooke.

    The sad conclusion I've reached is that - outside an enlightened minority - most people aren't that interested in democracy, just a system that delivers the goods. Of course, when the boot is on the other foot they'll wish they still had it, but by then it will be too late.

    If we want it to last, it has to keep delivering the goods.

    The problem is that there are more votes in the siren call of "it's somebody else's fault", than in saying "There are serious problems we face: an ageing population, no longer being the sole purchaser of commodities, competition from people in other countries willing to work harder for less money. And there are no simple solutions, but here is how we are looking to remediate the issues."
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,508
    FPT: Thanks to kinabalu for that description of his new party card. It reminds me of a question I wish some journalist would put to Bernie Sanders, who describes himseLf as a Democratic Socialist: Is he a DEMOCRATIC socialist, or a democratic SOCIALIST?

    In other words, which of the two is most important to him? In a conflict between a democratic, capitalist nation and an non-democratic socialist nation, which side would he tend to favor? His biography suggest the second; it isn't everyone who decides to honeymoon in the Soviet Union, as he did.

    (Some rude folks have suggested Sanders doesn't always stick to socialist principles. He is now a millionaire, thanks to book sales, and he and his wife own three houses.)
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,543
    Very poor performance by England cricket. But much, much better than Melbourne Stars Women, who managed 29 all out; top score 9. So it could have been worse.
    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/wbbl-2023-24-1387171/adelaide-strikers-women-vs-melbourne-stars-women-4th-match-1387175/full-scorecard
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,302
    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,551

    kinabalu said:

    Good piece Alan. But what does Western politicians 'reconnecting with their electorate' look like?

    Rory Stewart was lambasted for walking across the constituency he was going to be a candidate for.

    This was apparently bigoted or something. Rather than driving through the nice bits in an SUV.

    It’s a thought. Something to try.
    That doesn't quite complete the story. Rory was my MP, I met him more than once. He was and is an outstanding person. But, along with a number of other thoughtful centrists who know a lot, he is no longer in parliamentary politics, not because he was voted out but because he didn't stand.

    In this respect Rory Stewart typifies the problem, not the solution.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,171
    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Iirc the last report we had from Sicily was Ishmael's. So you'll be updating, no?

  • Options

    Very poor performance by England cricket. But much, much better than Melbourne Stars Women, who managed 29 all out; top score 9. So it could have been worse.
    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/wbbl-2023-24-1387171/adelaide-strikers-women-vs-melbourne-stars-women-4th-match-1387175/full-scorecard

    Yes, we could have lost to Melbourne Stars Women.
  • Options
    ajbajb Posts: 123
    FPT



    Handing hydrogen has well defined safety practises and methods. I can’t see how you could put hydrogen through home gas pipes and meet through standards.

    To start with Hydrogen embrittles materials by permeating *through* apparently solid material. It can also leak through joints that are 100% gas and water tight.

    Hydrogen is completely safe as long as you remember how dangerous it is. .

    Domestic supply of hydrogen sounds really difficult, until you realise that we used to do it - through the same pipes, in fact. Before converting to 'natural' gas, we used coal gas, which was about 50% hydrogen (the rest was carbon monoxide, which we are well rid of).

    The economic case against it is more convincing. But even there the report in the end says that hydrogen would be around 20% more expensive than heat pumps, which is within the range of uncertainty at this point.

    But a more compelling, though unstated argument is that to be competitive, there would be significant pressure to use non-carbon neutral sources of hydrogen.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296

    FPT: Thanks to kinabalu for that description of his new party card. It reminds me of a question I wish some journalist would put to Bernie Sanders, who describes himseLf as a Democratic Socialist: Is he a DEMOCRATIC socialist, or a democratic SOCIALIST?

    In other words, which of the two is most important to him? In a conflict between a democratic, capitalist nation and an non-democratic socialist nation, which side would he tend to favor? His biography suggest the second; it isn't everyone who decides to honeymoon in the Soviet Union, as he did.

    (Some rude folks have suggested Sanders doesn't always stick to socialist principles. He is now a millionaire, thanks to book sales, and he and his wife own three houses.)

    Sounds like a good socialist to me.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Catania is not that exciting.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,302
    It is darkly diverting watching progressive left wing pro-immigration Jews on TwiX now suddenly seeing the terrible downsides of multiculturalism

    Very hard to see how this plays out
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,008
    HYUFD said:

    Some good points but had we not invaded Iraq and Afghanistan Saddam would still be in power and now backing Putin and Bin Laden would still be alive. The Taliban were in power before we invaded anyway even if they have returned to power now. ISIS were a problem but have largely been pushed back.

    We are though certainly moving to a multi polar world, the US is no longer the supreme superpower as it was for most of the 20th century and the British Empire was for most of the 19th century. Instead China in particular is more or less the equal of the US in both economic and military terms and India is growing in economic terms too.

    100 years ago Europe had a bigger population than Africa, now Africa has a bigger population than Europe. Russia has declined also relatively, hence the US is now most concerned about Beijing rather than Moscow but can still be an irritant, as its invasion of Ukraine has shown

    I don’t think you can assume that Saddam or even his sons would still be around some 20 years from the War, although of course dictators do survive for long periods. He had Iran for a neighbour and enemy.
    Would ISIS have happened? Highly doubtful! The Syrian Revolution? Equally doubtful.

    I agree about the increase in the African population but part of the problem there is violent Islam, which was surely a spin-off from the Iraq War.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Catania is not that exciting.
    I can concur....
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,508
    edited October 2023
    In response to the header, I will say that, long before this book was published, I concluded that the most serious US domestic problem is the decline in family formation: https://www.amazon.com/Two-Parent-Privilege-Americans-Stopped-Getting/dp/0226817784

    The decline in family formation has been bad for everyone here, but especially boys.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,302
    edited October 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Catania is not that exciting.
    But that south east corner of Sicily IS

    Catania is a cheap way in, plus they are having an agreeable heatwave - 27C
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,801
    edited October 2023
    ajb said:

    FPT



    Handing hydrogen has well defined safety practises and methods. I can’t see how you could put hydrogen through home gas pipes and meet through standards.

    To start with Hydrogen embrittles materials by permeating *through* apparently solid material. It can also leak through joints that are 100% gas and water tight.

    Hydrogen is completely safe as long as you remember how dangerous it is. .

    Domestic supply of hydrogen sounds really difficult, until you realise that we used to do it - through the same pipes, in fact. Before converting to 'natural' gas, we used coal gas, which was about 50% hydrogen (the rest was carbon monoxide, which we are well rid of).

    The economic case against it is more convincing. But even there the report in the end says that hydrogen would be around 20% more expensive than heat pumps, which is within the range of uncertainty at this point.

    But a more compelling, though unstated argument is that to be competitive, there would be significant pressure to use non-carbon neutral sources of hydrogen.
    In those days, pre 1970, houses were far draughtier, though. Venting right up the chimney and through the gaps around the windows and doors. The usual coal fire would generate a fair bit of draught to add to the effect of the wind across the chimney stack.

    Edit: also, wasn't there an element of self-sealing, with the residual tars filling up cracks and so on? Not obtained with North Sea Gas, as opposed to the gasworks 2 miles away.

    Notd suggesting you are wrong: but it's certainly an anomaly.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited October 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Some good points but had we not invaded Iraq and Afghanistan Saddam would still be in power and now backing Putin and Bin Laden would still be alive. The Taliban were in power before we invaded anyway even if they have returned to power now. ISIS were a problem but have largely been pushed back.

    We are though certainly moving to a multi polar world, the US is no longer the supreme superpower as it was for most of the 20th century and the British Empire was for most of the 19th century. Instead China in particular is more or less the equal of the US in both economic and military terms and India is growing in economic terms too.

    100 years ago Europe had a bigger population than Africa, now Africa has a bigger population than Europe. Russia has declined also relatively, hence the US is now most concerned about Beijing rather than Moscow but can still be an irritant, as its invasion of Ukraine has shown

    I don’t think you can assume that Saddam or even his sons would still be around some 20 years from the War, although of course dictators do survive for long periods. He had Iran for a neighbour and enemy.
    Would ISIS have happened? Highly doubtful! The Syrian Revolution? Equally doubtful.

    I agree about the increase in the African population but part of the problem there is violent Islam, which was surely a spin-off from the Iraq War.
    And Iran had already failed to beat Iraq in a previous war, had he died Saddam's even worse son Uday would have taken over.

    The Syrian revolution against Assad was more a product of the Arab Spring than Iraq and plenty of jihadis infiltrated rebel groups there (so in that sense it was probably right we didn't try and topple Assad as the alternative there may have been worse).

    Violent Islam was there well before the Iraq War, after all 9/11 was launched by Bin Laden well before 2003's Iraq War and Al Qaeda had also been operating in Africa in Sudan, Somalia even when Clinton was US President
  • Options
    Terrorists issued with step-by-step guide on how to commit maximum carnage, including targeting infants

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/21/hamas-raid-hostages-gaza-terrorist-targets/
  • Options

    kinabalu said:

    Good piece Alan. But what does Western politicians 'reconnecting with their electorate' look like?

    Rory Stewart was lambasted for walking across the constituency he was going to be a candidate for.

    This was apparently bigoted or something. Rather than driving through the nice bits in an SUV.

    It’s a thought. Something to try.
    Lambasted by whom? Pack of idiots?

    Anybody hear old enough, or learned enough, to have ever heard of Lawton Chiles? AKA "Walkin' Lawton"?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawton_Chiles

    Despite 12 years in the Florida Legislature, Chiles was relatively unknown when he decided to bid for United States Senate in 1970. He embarked on a 1,003-mile walk from Pensacola to Key West for his campaign, earning him the nickname "Walkin' Lawton". It was successful and Chiles defeated his opponent William C. Cramer by a 53.9%–46.1% margin. Chiles was re-elected with relative ease in 1976 and 1982. He retired from the United States Senate in 1989.

    Not long after his retirement, supporters convinced him to run for governor of Florida in 1990 against the unpopular incumbent Bob Martinez, and Chiles defeated Martinez by a 13-point margin (56.5% to 43.5%). During his first term as Governor, Chiles reformed health care and oversaw recovery efforts from Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Chiles faced a tough re-election bid in 1994 against Jeb Bush, a businessman and son of former President George H. W. Bush. Chiles prevailed over Bush by fewer than 64,000 votes. During his second term, Chiles reformed education in Florida. On December 12, 1998, he suffered a heart attack and died at the Florida Governor's Mansion . . . . Chiles's reelection in 1994 is the last time a Democrat was elected Governor of Florida, with McKay being the most recent Democratic governor.

    SSI - Distance from Pensacola to Key West is less than from Land's End to John O'Groats via "End to End" trail.

    However, MUCH better swimming at either end of the great Sunshine State than in Great Britain!
  • Options
    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,788

    sarissa said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A Cornish friend of mine who hasn’t been to London in many years just spent a week here

    His verdict

    “London is amazing. The architecture is stunted. But it’s like an incredible museum. It is infinitely interesting. I can see why you never moved away”

    Fair

    Its a brilliant place to visit! As long as you can go home again afterwards...

    It’s a brilliant place to live! As long as you don’t have to commute to an office and you can bug out in the winter
    HYUFD said:

    Liz Truss rumoured to be going into the Australian jungle for I'm a Celeb, following Matt Hancock's footsteps last year
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-12656307/Im-Celebrity-2023-line-rumoured.html

    Cue an exodus of snakes, crocodiles and other dangers to life…
    Would Liz loose the Conservative wip as a result?
    I’m sure they have more than one.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Catania is not that exciting.
    But that south east corner of Sicily IS

    Catania is a cheap way in, plus they are having an agreeable heatwave - 27C
    You can go Etna, you can stay in the White Lotus hotel, you can visit the amphitheatre.

    And, yes, you can get given a shot of limoncello with every bloody meal.

    It's still not that exciting.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,247
    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting, article @Alanbrooke.

    The sad conclusion I've reached is that - outside an enlightened minority - most people aren't that interested in democracy, just a system that delivers the goods. Of course, when the boot is on the other foot they'll wish they still had it, but by then it will be too late.

    If we want it to last, it has to keep delivering the goods.

    The problem is that there are more votes in the siren call of "it's somebody else's fault", than in saying "There are serious problems we face: an ageing population, no longer being the sole purchaser of commodities, competition from people in other countries willing to work harder for less money. And there are no simple solutions, but here is how we are looking to remediate the issues."
    Yes this is my idea of what an honest 'connecting with the electorate' looks like. The very opposite of the shallow boosterism and 'making our country great again' that is so in vogue.
  • Options

    FPT: Thanks to kinabalu for that description of his new party card. It reminds me of a question I wish some journalist would put to Bernie Sanders, who describes himseLf as a Democratic Socialist: Is he a DEMOCRATIC socialist, or a democratic SOCIALIST?

    In other words, which of the two is most important to him? In a conflict between a democratic, capitalist nation and an non-democratic socialist nation, which side would he tend to favor? His biography suggest the second; it isn't everyone who decides to honeymoon in the Soviet Union, as he did.

    (Some rude folks have suggested Sanders doesn't always stick to socialist principles. He is now a millionaire, thanks to book sales, and he and his wife own three houses.)

    Is Jim Jordan a FASCIST Republican or a Fascist REPUBLICAN?

    Notion that a person of "socialist principles" is ispso facto a hypocrite for making and/or possessing money in a capitalists economy & society, is BS at least IMHO.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,801
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Catania is not that exciting.
    But that south east corner of Sicily IS

    Catania is a cheap way in, plus they are having an agreeable heatwave - 27C
    You can go Etna, you can stay in the White Lotus hotel, you can visit the amphitheatre.

    And, yes, you can get given a shot of limoncello with every bloody meal.

    It's still not that exciting.
    Etna: one of the world's great cultural monuments. A key element in the development of Charles Lyell's Principles of Geology (1830-33), and in turn of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species. Should be a World Heritage Site for that (maybe it is already, I dunno).
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,302
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Catania is not that exciting.
    But that south east corner of Sicily IS

    Catania is a cheap way in, plus they are having an agreeable heatwave - 27C
    You can go Etna, you can stay in the White Lotus hotel, you can visit the amphitheatre.

    And, yes, you can get given a shot of limoncello with every bloody meal.

    It's still not that exciting.
    Er, syracuse?

    Modica, Ragusa, Noto?

    Tsk
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,508
    In the US, during war time, the quality of leadership usually improves. Men and women would not have accepted appointments or run for office do so. That was even true during much of the Cold War.

    When peace comes the call of duty is weaker, and we get worse leaders.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,786

    In response to the header, I will say that, long before this book was published, I have believed that the most serious US domestic problem is the decline in family formation: https://www.amazon.com/Two-Parent-Privilege-Americans-Stopped-Getting/dp/0226817784

    The decline in family formation has been bad for everyone here, but especially boys.

    Bad in the US, bui worse in the UK. Come the second Empire, when the colonials realise that British rule was, after all, the best solution we're going to be stretched.

    There seems to be an odd effect where people have more children in wartime - I guess biologically it makes some sense, but I think it's very unhelpful in the case of Gaza. Organisations such as Hamas thrive on this.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,247
    Sean_F said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see that Israel are suggesting that after the conflict with Hamas is over they might cut all ties with Gaza.

    That's a good idea I think. Israel withdrew from the territory in 2005 but its still been considered internationally "occupied" territory with Israel responsible for providing water, electricity etc without much gratitude for that.

    Just cut all ties completely, say that Egypt or someone else can be responsible for Gaza if they like but that you won't be anymore.

    Gaza was part of Egypt before it was taken by Israel, it going back to being Egypt's responsibility may be the only way out of the cycle of violence. Not that Egypt would be happy to take it back, as the Palestinians have been so atrociously behaved as a group that nobody wants them unfortunately.

    Please give the hate speech a rest.
    Its remarkable that you're that far gone that you consider the suggestion Israel could or should disengage unilaterally from Gaza once the conflict is over as "hate speech".

    Which is part of the problem related to what Alanbrooke has written about, the West can have a place in the world and politicians do need to step up to the mark, but so too does the electorate.

    Currently too many in the electorate want to define anyone who disagrees with them on anything as "hateful" or "woke" or all kinds of other nonsense.

    Besides the worst autocratic extremes (like Trump not accepting democracy), we in the West have more that bind us together than drive us apart.

    I'd rather live in a nation where the party I support loses democratically, than wins via foul play and autocratic means.

    The western electorates, not just western politicians, need to value democracy and differences of opinion too.
    I didn’t follow the references to “hate speech” either.

    In an era of social media, it seems no case can ever be sufficiently overstated with terms like “hate”, “genocide”, “violence”, being thrown about inappropriately.

    And, good header.
    How is writing about the Palestinians in a manner dripping with contempt not hate speech?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,466
    Nice thread. I find the premise flawed. I don't believe in the West. It seems quite wrong to me that Britain should depend for its security on an amorphous alliance, the direction of which we have no say in. We need to pay our way and depend on ourselves for our own security. I believe that is possible, though it's a long term project.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,302
    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Catania is not that exciting.
    But that south east corner of Sicily IS

    Catania is a cheap way in, plus they are having an agreeable heatwave - 27C
    You can go Etna, you can stay in the White Lotus hotel, you can visit the amphitheatre.

    And, yes, you can get given a shot of limoncello with every bloody meal.

    It's still not that exciting.
    Etna: one of the world's great cultural monuments. A key element in the development of Charles Lyell's Principles of Geology (1830-33), and in turn of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species. Should be a World Heritage Site for that (maybe it is already, I dunno).
    Is it worth climbing Etna?

    I’ve seen some spectacular volcanoes in my time. Is etna worth the detour?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,247
    Leon said:

    It is darkly diverting watching progressive left wing pro-immigration Jews on TwiX now suddenly seeing the terrible downsides of multiculturalism

    Very hard to see how this plays out

    Why don't you just let rip with the anti muslim prejudice instead of dressing it up with these artful constructions?
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,551
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting, article @Alanbrooke.

    The sad conclusion I've reached is that - outside an enlightened minority - most people aren't that interested in democracy, just a system that delivers the goods. Of course, when the boot is on the other foot they'll wish they still had it, but by then it will be too late.

    If we want it to last, it has to keep delivering the goods.

    By definition, at the end of the day democracy will deliver the goods most people want it to, as they elect or throw out the government
    I doubt if it delivers quite that much on its own. Its unique contribution is that it tempers tyranny and absolutism by ensuring that any leadership can be peacefully removed and replaced, so long as the armed forces acquiesce. This is the best way of solving Thomas Hobbes's conundrum created by the logic of obeying 'The Strong Man' even if he isn't very nice.

    But the quality of government beyond that minimal level will depend upon a complex relationship of the maturity of the voters and their capacity to reject simplistic answers to complex problems, the quality of people seeking politics as a career and the utility of the media who mediate so much of the conversation. A good deal of this is down to luck and events that have already occurred.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,171
    "Is it worth climbing Etna?"
    Hard to know ex-ante (walk it backwards)
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,786
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Catania is not that exciting.
    But that south east corner of Sicily IS

    Catania is a cheap way in, plus they are having an agreeable heatwave - 27C
    You can go Etna, you can stay in the White Lotus hotel, you can visit the amphitheatre.

    And, yes, you can get given a shot of limoncello with every bloody meal.

    It's still not that exciting.
    Etna: one of the world's great cultural monuments. A key element in the development of Charles Lyell's Principles of Geology (1830-33), and in turn of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species. Should be a World Heritage Site for that (maybe it is already, I dunno).
    Is it worth climbing Etna?

    I’ve seen some spectacular volcanoes in my time. Is etna worth the detour?
    If I was there again I'd try to find a way to get up really early and ascend in relative isolation.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,247

    FPT: Thanks to kinabalu for that description of his new party card. It reminds me of a question I wish some journalist would put to Bernie Sanders, who describes himseLf as a Democratic Socialist: Is he a DEMOCRATIC socialist, or a democratic SOCIALIST?

    In other words, which of the two is most important to him? In a conflict between a democratic, capitalist nation and an non-democratic socialist nation, which side would he tend to favor? His biography suggest the second; it isn't everyone who decides to honeymoon in the Soviet Union, as he did.

    (Some rude folks have suggested Sanders doesn't always stick to socialist principles. He is now a millionaire, thanks to book sales, and he and his wife own three houses.)

    What does it mean to be 'socialist' these days is the interesting question, I think. Is it a preferred economic model or more a set of values?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Catania is not that exciting.
    But that south east corner of Sicily IS

    Catania is a cheap way in, plus they are having an agreeable heatwave - 27C
    You can go Etna, you can stay in the White Lotus hotel, you can visit the amphitheatre.

    And, yes, you can get given a shot of limoncello with every bloody meal.

    It's still not that exciting.
    Etna: one of the world's great cultural monuments. A key element in the development of Charles Lyell's Principles of Geology (1830-33), and in turn of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species. Should be a World Heritage Site for that (maybe it is already, I dunno).
    Is it worth climbing Etna?

    I’ve seen some spectacular volcanoes in my time. Is etna worth the detour?
    I climbed Etna. And it was fun.

    If you climb it in early Spring, there are still people skiing on it, while you are climbing upwards towards the heat of the crater.

    But if you've done two or three volcanoes already, then there's not that much new for you there.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,801
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in an airport on the way to somewhere interesting (Catania, Sicily)

    I’m through security. I’ve got a fat G&T. These are the simple reliable pleasures of life

    Catania is not that exciting.
    But that south east corner of Sicily IS

    Catania is a cheap way in, plus they are having an agreeable heatwave - 27C
    You can go Etna, you can stay in the White Lotus hotel, you can visit the amphitheatre.

    And, yes, you can get given a shot of limoncello with every bloody meal.

    It's still not that exciting.
    Etna: one of the world's great cultural monuments. A key element in the development of Charles Lyell's Principles of Geology (1830-33), and in turn of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species. Should be a World Heritage Site for that (maybe it is already, I dunno).
    Is it worth climbing Etna?

    I’ve seen some spectacular volcanoes in my time. Is etna worth the detour?
    I don't know. Especially for you, as you say. It's pretty massive. Was a hell of a trek in the old days. And it depnds on interests/guides/specialist vs generalist tour. Me' I'd probably go as part of a special interest group.

    Edit: have not been.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,864
    Late afternoon all :)

    Things are seldom what they seem and hindight is a wonderful thing.

    Cliches aside, I think I start not in 2001 but in 1989 - the end of the Cold War was so sudden and unexpected nobody had much time to work out what it would all mean. Conservatives, socialists and liberals all took different interpretations and history has proven all of them wrong.

    The 20th Century arguably ran from 1914 to 1989 - the 21st Century began in November 1989 and much as the 20th had, promised so much before violently moving in a different direction. The powers and ideology - the US and liberal democracy - which had triumphed in the 20th century quickly found themselves facing new adversaries and new trials.

    Perhaps the most important of these trials has been the trial within - the promises of that better world which seemed to flow from 1989 haven't been delivered for many. Environmental and demographic trends challenge the political, economic and social cultures which dominated the 20th century. An economic culture based on mass consumption of fossil fuels, an economy based on a young and semi-skilled workforce and a society based on suburbs and mass personal transportation - all these seem if not anachronistic but increasingly inappropriate for a new century.

    Instead, an ageing population facing challenges around energy consumption and production, moves away from traditional ways of working and living and the emergence of new, younger and more dynamic societies and countries (India, Nigeria, Brazil and others) challenge the dominance of both Europe and the West.

    The long-propheised shift of global economic and political power to the Pacific is perhaps finally happening leaving Europe on the wrong side of the globe and an ocean away.
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,508
    SS2 - Well, one of the people who thinks Bernie Sanders may be a bit of a hypocrite is -- Berie Sanders. After he became a millionaire -- he switched from criticizing millionaires and billionaires to criticizing just billionaires.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,797
    Personally I came to the realisation, about half a decade ago , that it was probably my fate to live in a period of tragedy and decline. Much of this is structural. You can however work to keep things keep going ok for you and those around you at a personal level. Also stay optimistic, because the sense of decline/imminent ruin has stalked us in various forms for well over a century, but things seem to keep going.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,302
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It is darkly diverting watching progressive left wing pro-immigration Jews on TwiX now suddenly seeing the terrible downsides of multiculturalism

    Very hard to see how this plays out

    Why don't you just let rip with the anti muslim prejudice instead of dressing it up with these artful constructions?
    Because I’m making a particular point which you are determined to misconstrue

    Whatevs
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,786
    @Alanbrooke Your header seems like a good foundation for an excellent book.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,171
    geoffw said:

    "Is it worth climbing Etna?"
    Hard to know ex-ante (walk it backwards)

    Clue: anadrome
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,448
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Good piece Alan. But what does Western politicians 'reconnecting with their electorate' look like?

    Rory Stewart was lambasted for walking across the constituency he was going to be a candidate for.

    This was apparently bigoted or something. Rather than driving through the nice bits in an SUV.

    It’s a thought. Something to try.
    That doesn't quite complete the story. Rory was my MP, I met him more than once. He was and is an outstanding person. But, along with a number of other thoughtful centrists who know a lot, he is no longer in parliamentary politics, not because he was voted out but because he didn't stand.

    In this respect Rory Stewart typifies the problem, not the solution.
    He tried meeting the voters in various ways. And understanding them. The end of his political career was not down to the voters so much as divergence of the political party he was in.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,302
    darkage said:

    Personally I came to the realisation, about half a decade ago , that it was probably my fate to live in a period of tragedy and decline. Much of this is structural. You can however work to keep things keep going ok for you and those around you at a personal level. Also stay optimistic, because the sense of decline/imminent ruin has stalked us in various forms for well over a century, but things seem to keep going.

    Cheer up. AI is going to change everything. It really is

    It may destroy the world or it may turn the world into Utopia. Either way it will divert the melancholy trajectory you describe
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,247
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It is darkly diverting watching progressive left wing pro-immigration Jews on TwiX now suddenly seeing the terrible downsides of multiculturalism

    Very hard to see how this plays out

    Why don't you just let rip with the anti muslim prejudice instead of dressing it up with these artful constructions?
    Because I’m making a particular point which you are determined to misconstrue

    Whatevs
    'Multiculturalism doesn't work'

    Isn't that it? Your particular point?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,171
    On topic
    At least we live in interesting times
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,302
    Dura_Ace said:



    I agree about the increase in the African population but part of the problem there is violent Islam, which was surely a spin-off from the Iraq War.

    I mean, I greatly enjoyed it at the time but Iraq 2 was surely the greatest strategic blunder of the last century. It was completely unnecessary and surely marks the start of the decline of the west.
    9/11 was the pivotal moment when the world turned against the west

    Bin Laden is surely laughing in hell, in between getting pegged by a demonic Maureen Lipmann noisily eating pork scratchings
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    stodge said:

    Late afternoon all :)

    Things are seldom what they seem and hindight is a wonderful thing.

    Cliches aside, I think I start not in 2001 but in 1989 - the end of the Cold War was so sudden and unexpected nobody had much time to work out what it would all mean. Conservatives, socialists and liberals all took different interpretations and history has proven all of them wrong.

    The 20th Century arguably ran from 1914 to 1989 - the 21st Century began in November 1989 and much as the 20th had, promised so much before violently moving in a different direction. The powers and ideology - the US and liberal democracy - which had triumphed in the 20th century quickly found themselves facing new adversaries and new trials.

    Perhaps the most important of these trials has been the trial within - the promises of that better world which seemed to flow from 1989 haven't been delivered for many. Environmental and demographic trends challenge the political, economic and social cultures which dominated the 20th century. An economic culture based on mass consumption of fossil fuels, an economy based on a young and semi-skilled workforce and a society based on suburbs and mass personal transportation - all these seem if not anachronistic but increasingly inappropriate for a new century.

    Instead, an ageing population facing challenges around energy consumption and production, moves away from traditional ways of working and living and the emergence of new, younger and more dynamic societies and countries (India, Nigeria, Brazil and others) challenge the dominance of both Europe and the West.

    The long-propheised shift of global economic and political power to the Pacific is perhaps finally happening leaving Europe on the wrong side of the globe and an ocean away.

    On the other hand, the world is - in a remarkably unheralded manner - managing to deal with the challenges of climate change.

    Back in 2010, the year my son was born, I bought a Tesla Roadster.

    Just 13 years later, the best selling car in the US is electric and almost all vehicles sold in Norway are electric. Oil demand in Norway is down 9% year-over-year, and their electrical grid hasn't fallen over.

    And we're seeing similar strides with renewables. It's only a matter of time before most electricity generated comes from zero carbon sources of one kind or another. Heating and cooling are being transformed by heat pumps.

    This is a monumental change, that means less pollution, cleaner cities, and - yes - much cheaper power in the long run,.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited October 2023
    Dura_Ace said:



    I agree about the increase in the African population but part of the problem there is violent Islam, which was surely a spin-off from the Iraq War.

    I mean, I greatly enjoyed it at the time but Iraq 2 was surely the greatest strategic blunder of the last century. It was completely unnecessary and surely marks the start of the decline of the west.
    No, China would still have risen to be an economic and military match for the US and Islamic jihadism would still be there, indeed 9/11 gave Bush the excuse to go harder in the Middle East. India would still be rising faster economically than Europe. As Fishing notes the 2008 crash would still have knocked confidence in Western capitalism. The West would still be in relative population decline compared to Africa too.

    Just Saddam would still be in power
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,247

    SS2 - Well, one of the people who thinks Bernie Sanders may be a bit of a hypocrite is -- Berie Sanders. After he became a millionaire -- he switched from criticizing millionaires and billionaires to criticizing just billionaires.

    It's not hypocrisy to be rich and left wing. If it were all left wingers would either be poor or hypocrites. In which case nobody would aspire to be one.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,551
    Fishing said:

    It's too easy to be gloomy about the West - it usually rises to the challenge when it has to, and democracies discover their hidden strengths (and the weakeness of their foes) when they are in greatest peril. And, as the header notes, countries can change and do all the time. We mustn't expect even our allies to be woke paradises - I always think that when I read articles in the Guardian or the Economist criticising countries which ban gay marriage as uncivilised, though we only legalised it here a decade ago.

    I think the event which most undermined Western hegemony (or rather sped up its relative decline) was not Iraq or anything else in the War on Terror, it was the Global Financial Crisis, which has had a number of disastrous political and economic effects. It has (wrongly in my view) discredited free enterprise capitalism, which has delivered so much prosperity over the last century, while emboldening socialists, and it has embittered political debate, because everybody is competing for shares of a stagnant pie. It has also encouraged the Chinese, who seemed to be relatively unscathed, into believing (like the Japanese a generation ago) that their system was somehow superior, and that they could generate growth indefinitely by expanding credit forever. In fact, China is facing its own massive problems right now (demographics, huge debt, environmental degradation and a political system uniquely ill-equipped to change). So I'm not counting the West out, as long as we remember what made us successful in the first place.

    As to 'free enterprise capitalism', the GFC, in this country, undermined it colossally in that vast institutions were not allowed to fail and were underwritten by the tax payer, share holders took a hit along with the taxpayer, but on the whole bankers didn't. Interest rates were used for years as in instrument to impoverish prudent and cautious deposit holders and continue dispensing free money to those whose disregard for financial probity had got us in the mess in the first place and allow the government to borrow trillions with the bills only coming in later, as Sir K will discover soon.

  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,430
    edited October 2023

    kinabalu said:

    Good piece Alan. But what does Western politicians 'reconnecting with their electorate' look like?

    Rory Stewart was lambasted for walking across the constituency he was going to be a candidate for.

    This was apparently bigoted or something. Rather than driving through the nice bits in an SUV.

    It’s a thought. Something to try.
    Lambasted by whom? Pack of idiots?

    Anybody hear old enough, or learned enough, to have ever heard of Lawton Chiles? AKA "Walkin' Lawton"?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawton_Chiles

    Despite 12 years in the Florida Legislature, Chiles was relatively unknown when he decided to bid for United States Senate in 1970. He embarked on a 1,003-mile walk from Pensacola to Key West for his campaign, earning him the nickname "Walkin' Lawton". It was successful and Chiles defeated his opponent William C. Cramer by a 53.9%–46.1% margin. Chiles was re-elected with relative ease in 1976 and 1982. He retired from the United States Senate in 1989.

    Not long after his retirement, supporters convinced him to run for governor of Florida in 1990 against the unpopular incumbent Bob Martinez, and Chiles defeated Martinez by a 13-point margin (56.5% to 43.5%). During his first term as Governor, Chiles reformed health care and oversaw recovery efforts from Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Chiles faced a tough re-election bid in 1994 against Jeb Bush, a businessman and son of former President George H. W. Bush. Chiles prevailed over Bush by fewer than 64,000 votes. During his second term, Chiles reformed education in Florida. On December 12, 1998, he suffered a heart attack and died at the Florida Governor's Mansion . . . . Chiles's reelection in 1994 is the last time a Democrat was elected Governor of Florida, with McKay being the most recent Democratic governor.

    SSI - Distance from Pensacola to Key West is less than from Land's End to John O'Groats via "End to End" trail.

    However, MUCH better swimming at either end of the great Sunshine State than in Great Britain!
    Amateur. Rory walked across Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, India and Nepal.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Places_in_Between

    ETA Rory also climbed out of a fifth floor window to gain reentry to his own office.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/rory-stewart-climbed-out-of-fifthfloor-window-and-scaled-building-after-getting-locked-out-of-office-a4171661.html

    Before becoming an MP in 2010, Mr Stewart was a diplomat in Indonesia and Montenegro, and a deputy governor of two Iraqi provinces after the 2003 war. He also walked for 21 months across Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Nepal.

    Mr Stewart, the International Development Secretary, previously denied he was a spy. But, asked on BBC Radio 4 if ex-spies could legally say whether they worked for MI6, he said no.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/rory-stewart-spy-claims-could-put-others-at-risk-senior-tory-warns-a4169731.html
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296
    kinabalu said:

    SS2 - Well, one of the people who thinks Bernie Sanders may be a bit of a hypocrite is -- Berie Sanders. After he became a millionaire -- he switched from criticizing millionaires and billionaires to criticizing just billionaires.

    It's not hypocrisy to be rich and left wing. If it were all left wingers would either be poor or hypocrites. In which case nobody would aspire to be one.
    I hate all hypocrites.

    Except me, of course.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,956
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Personally I came to the realisation, about half a decade ago , that it was probably my fate to live in a period of tragedy and decline. Much of this is structural. You can however work to keep things keep going ok for you and those around you at a personal level. Also stay optimistic, because the sense of decline/imminent ruin has stalked us in various forms for well over a century, but things seem to keep going.

    Cheer up. AI is going to change everything. It really is

    It may destroy the world or it may turn the world into Utopia. Either way it will divert the melancholy trajectory you describe
    The gloom in me suggests a half hour read of, or listen to, I have no mouth and I must scream by Harlan Ellison, for how AI will likely treat us.

    As read by the author - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgo-As552hY

    Looking at the mess we've made out of civilization, why shouldn't AI be disgusted with us?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,302
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    It is darkly diverting watching progressive left wing pro-immigration Jews on TwiX now suddenly seeing the terrible downsides of multiculturalism

    Very hard to see how this plays out

    Why don't you just let rip with the anti muslim prejudice instead of dressing it up with these artful constructions?
    Because I’m making a particular point which you are determined to misconstrue

    Whatevs
    'Multiculturalism doesn't work'

    Isn't that it? Your particular point?
    No. It isn’t

    I mean we can continue your infantile discourse if you like, but I’m making a more sophisticated point

    Jewish people of the left - previously progressive, pro immigration and pro multiculturalism - are suddenly realising these polices are a disaster for them

    As they are a vocal and influential constituency within the left - in Britain and elsewhere - this will have a significant effect on our politics. I have Jewish friends who have made exactly this intellectual leap in the past week
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    SS2 - Well, one of the people who thinks Bernie Sanders may be a bit of a hypocrite is -- Berie Sanders. After he became a millionaire -- he switched from criticizing millionaires and billionaires to criticizing just billionaires.

    It's not hypocrisy to be rich and left wing. If it were all left wingers would either be poor or hypocrites. In which case nobody would aspire to be one.
    But that's the point, aspiration belongs to right wingers. 😉
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,008
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    I agree about the increase in the African population but part of the problem there is violent Islam, which was surely a spin-off from the Iraq War.

    I mean, I greatly enjoyed it at the time but Iraq 2 was surely the greatest strategic blunder of the last century. It was completely unnecessary and surely marks the start of the decline of the west.
    9/11 was the pivotal moment when the world turned against the west
    The post-9/11 bloodlust should have been satiated by Afghanistan. Iraq 2 wasn't jut pointless but actively and massively deleterious to the interests of the West.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited October 2023
    kinabalu said:

    SS2 - Well, one of the people who thinks Bernie Sanders may be a bit of a hypocrite is -- Berie Sanders. After he became a millionaire -- he switched from criticizing millionaires and billionaires to criticizing just billionaires.

    It's not hypocrisy to be rich and left wing. If it were all left wingers would either be poor or hypocrites. In which case nobody would aspire to be one.
    No, as long as you inherit your wealth or make it from fame from government and politics, academia or the arts and culture.

    Making money from private business and corporations, finance or big tech however is somewhat hypocritical if you are a socialist as you want a largely state run economy
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    kinabalu said:

    SS2 - Well, one of the people who thinks Bernie Sanders may be a bit of a hypocrite is -- Berie Sanders. After he became a millionaire -- he switched from criticizing millionaires and billionaires to criticizing just billionaires.

    It's not hypocrisy to be rich and left wing. If it were all left wingers would either be poor or hypocrites. In which case nobody would aspire to be one.
    A great deal of adult life in general, and parenting in particular, is finding a level of hypocrisy you're comfortable with.

    Although for some reason I've never told my kids that.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,402
    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting, article @Alanbrooke.

    The sad conclusion I've reached is that - outside an enlightened minority - most people aren't that interested in democracy, just a system that delivers the goods. Of course, when the boot is on the other foot they'll wish they still had it, but by then it will be too late.

    If we want it to last, it has to keep delivering the goods.

    The problem is that there are more votes in the siren call of "it's somebody else's fault", than in saying "There are serious problems we face: an ageing population, no longer being the sole purchaser of commodities, competition from people in other countries willing to work harder for less money. And there are no simple solutions, but here is how we are looking to remediate the issues."
    Maybe, but we need to brave and start having (forcing) that conversation.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,551
    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Personally I came to the realisation, about half a decade ago , that it was probably my fate to live in a period of tragedy and decline. Much of this is structural. You can however work to keep things keep going ok for you and those around you at a personal level. Also stay optimistic, because the sense of decline/imminent ruin has stalked us in various forms for well over a century, but things seem to keep going.

    Cheer up. AI is going to change everything. It really is

    It may destroy the world or it may turn the world into Utopia. Either way it will divert the melancholy trajectory you describe
    The gloom in me suggests a half hour read of, or listen to, I have no mouth and I must scream by Harlan Ellison, for how AI will likely treat us.

    As read by the author - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgo-As552hY

    Looking at the mess we've made out of civilization, why shouldn't AI be disgusted with us?
    The Economist this week suggests a truly useful use for AI, namely assisting in reading the charred scrolls from the library of Herculaneum. New plays, new epics in the style of Homer, new poetry, new philosophy texts etc. Fresh fields of study for the home of lost causes whispering from her towers the last enchantments of the Middle Ages.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    I agree about the increase in the African population but part of the problem there is violent Islam, which was surely a spin-off from the Iraq War.

    I mean, I greatly enjoyed it at the time but Iraq 2 was surely the greatest strategic blunder of the last century. It was completely unnecessary and surely marks the start of the decline of the west.
    9/11 was the pivotal moment when the world turned against the west
    The post-9/11 bloodlust should have been satiated by Afghanistan. Iraq 2 wasn't jut pointless but actively and massively deleterious to the interests of the West.
    The contrary, Saddam is no longer in power in Iraq which elects its own government, however the Taliban are back in power in Afghanistan (and even Bin Laden was killed in Pakistan not Afghanistan).

    Indeed now Iraq 2 looks more successful in achieving its aims longer term than Afghanistan was
This discussion has been closed.