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East Kilbride SNP MP defects to the Tories – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    Well it looks like there’s runs in this pitch.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    kle4 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Leon said:

    YES already losing badly after just 0.5% votes counted in Oz

    63-37

    It’s gonna be a thrashing, and a humiliation for the PM

    Is this the Australia referendum? Rural Tasmania likely to be reporting first.

    Somewhere, some Australian is keeping an AndyJS style spreadsheet and knows exactly what that means.
    The BBC will be very disappointed if the referendum is lost. The first piece of theirs I read on the issue was basically 'Yes is marvellous, No are mostly racists'.

    Happily, since it's nothing to do with me or this country there's nothing riding on the outcome one way or another so no emotional component.
    The partiality on every article I’ve read about this on the BBC really took me aback.

    Some outlets seem to come at it from the angle of “this is unreservedly A Good Idea so how can you possibly reject it?” Which it isn’t really the job of the BBC to do. Funny how they’re so steadfast in allowing people to “make up their own minds” on other issues….
    I think on foreign issues they seem to be more comfortable with taking a clearer slant on events perhaps.
  • boulay said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    The Australian referendum issue for yes was there wasn’t a clear plan for how they would implement the vote . One hopes this was the main reason for No winning and not depressingly that so many Aussies are racist .

    Its not racism, its that the Voice was a terribly implemented bad idea.

    The general principle got an overwhelming 70%+ support at first, it was only when people learnt more about it that it became rejected.
    It’s a shame because a No vote sends a very poor message to the rest of the world .
    It doesn’t really, apart from a few global activists, the Guardian, PB and other global political geek websites and inevitably a UN committee on Racism chaired by a country where they have grim human rights the rest of the world doesn’t know or care about this story.

    The rest of the world will continue to think “Australia, crocodile Dundee, kangaroos, boomerangs and throwing shrimps on the barbie”.
    You forgot cricket and Fosters.

    The latter is just as well, nobody in Australia drinks that pisswater.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Official: referendum defeated

    lol!!

    Took about 8 minutes

    Whats also revealing is it looks like only one territory voted Yes - Canberra.

    Out of touch politicos in their own little bubble.
    They might well win in Victoria - by a slim margin

    But that’s still bad. Just one state
    A total copy of the 1999 referendum. Uncannily so.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Australian_republic_referendum#The_republic
    Good spot! That’s a remarkable similarity
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Leon said:

    YES already losing badly after just 0.5% votes counted in Oz

    63-37

    It’s gonna be a thrashing, and a humiliation for the PM

    Is this the Australia referendum? Rural Tasmania likely to be reporting first.

    Somewhere, some Australian is keeping an AndyJS style spreadsheet and knows exactly what that means.
    The BBC will be very disappointed if the referendum is lost. The first piece of theirs I read on the issue was basically 'Yes is marvellous, No are mostly racists'.

    Happily, since it's nothing to do with me or this country there's nothing riding on the outcome one way or another so no emotional component.
    The partiality on every article I’ve read about this on the BBC really took me aback.

    Some outlets seem to come at it from the angle of “this is unreservedly A Good Idea so how can you possibly reject it?” Which it isn’t really the job of the BBC to do. Funny how they’re so steadfast in allowing people to “make up their own minds” on other issues….
    I think on foreign issues they seem to be more comfortable with taking a clearer slant on events perhaps.
    In the realm of UK politics they’re required to be ‘impartial’.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,030
    Leon said:

    This is an object lesson in how to lose a referendum

    At one point YES was close to 70% in the polls. Incredible


    The basic issue is it sounds nice “give indigenous people a voice” so it has wide but shallow support

    And then as voters pay attention they realised it was a terrible idea badly executed - essentially it was setting up a pathway whereby a minority community had an effective veto over decisions

    That’s not democratic
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    boulay said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    The Australian referendum issue for yes was there wasn’t a clear plan for how they would implement the vote . One hopes this was the main reason for No winning and not depressingly that so many Aussies are racist .

    Its not racism, its that the Voice was a terribly implemented bad idea.

    The general principle got an overwhelming 70%+ support at first, it was only when people learnt more about it that it became rejected.
    It’s a shame because a No vote sends a very poor message to the rest of the world .
    It doesn’t really, apart from a few global activists, the Guardian, PB and other global political geek websites and inevitably a UN committee on Racism chaired by a country where they have grim human rights the rest of the world doesn’t know or care about this story.

    The rest of the world will continue to think “Australia, crocodile Dundee, kangaroos, boomerangs and throwing shrimps on the barbie”.
    Also, country's should vote in what they think is in their best interest, not on the message it sends to others.

    Aus won't have turned villain overnight I expect.
  • Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Official: referendum defeated

    lol!!

    Took about 8 minutes

    Whats also revealing is it looks like only one territory voted Yes - Canberra.

    Out of touch politicos in their own little bubble.
    They might well win in Victoria - by a slim margin

    But that’s still bad. Just one state
    A total copy of the 1999 referendum. Uncannily so.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Australian_republic_referendum#The_republic
    Good spot! That’s a remarkable similarity
    Including from memory the polls, can't find a poll chart from 1999 but it followed a very comparable trend IIRC.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169

    boulay said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    The Australian referendum issue for yes was there wasn’t a clear plan for how they would implement the vote . One hopes this was the main reason for No winning and not depressingly that so many Aussies are racist .

    Its not racism, its that the Voice was a terribly implemented bad idea.

    The general principle got an overwhelming 70%+ support at first, it was only when people learnt more about it that it became rejected.
    It’s a shame because a No vote sends a very poor message to the rest of the world .
    It doesn’t really, apart from a few global activists, the Guardian, PB and other global political geek websites and inevitably a UN committee on Racism chaired by a country where they have grim human rights the rest of the world doesn’t know or care about this story.

    The rest of the world will continue to think “Australia, crocodile Dundee, kangaroos, boomerangs and throwing shrimps on the barbie”.
    You forgot cricket and Fosters.

    The latter is just as well, nobody in Australia drinks that pisswater.
    Even the Aussies themselves have forgotten rugby.
  • Leon said:

    boulay said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    The Australian referendum issue for yes was there wasn’t a clear plan for how they would implement the vote . One hopes this was the main reason for No winning and not depressingly that so many Aussies are racist .

    Its not racism, its that the Voice was a terribly implemented bad idea.

    The general principle got an overwhelming 70%+ support at first, it was only when people learnt more about it that it became rejected.
    It’s a shame because a No vote sends a very poor message to the rest of the world .
    It doesn’t really, apart from a few global activists, the Guardian, PB and other global political geek websites and inevitably a UN committee on Racism chaired by a country where they have grim human rights the rest of the world doesn’t know or care about this story.

    The rest of the world will continue to think “Australia, crocodile Dundee, kangaroos, boomerangs and throwing shrimps on the barbie”.
    Quite so

    If anything has damaged Australia's image this week it has been the sight of a large crowd outside Sydney Opera House chanting “gas the Jews! Gas the Jews!”

    Absolutely fucking hideous

    If I were Australian, THAT would make me ashamed
    We can hardly talk, looking at some of the scenes coming out of London and elsewhere this week, that makes me totally ashamed too.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    A view from Ireland:

    Since the horrific attack by Hamas on innocent Israeli civilians last weekend, European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen has expressed unambiguous support for Israel regardless, apparently, of how it chooses to respond.

    The Israeli flag was projected on her headquarters, the Berlaymont, in the wake of the attacks and was hoisted alongside that of the European Union, and she invited the Israeli ambassador to the EU to join the weekly meeting of European commissioners on Wednesday.

    In public posts she declared that the European Union stands with Israel “today and in the days to come” and “in the next weeks”, an apparent signal not just of the bloc’s sympathy over the attacks but also its sanction for Israel’s retaliation.

    Her approach has caused deepening unease within European institutions and in national capitals as Israel undertakes what the Taoiseach has described as “collective punishment” against the people of Gaza, cutting off water, food and electricity, and now ordering over a million people to evacuate in 24 hours to the alarm of the United Nations.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2023/10/13/as-von-der-leyen-visits-israel-is-the-commission-overstretching-its-powers/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,216
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "‘Angry’ lawyer warned against Post Office computer investigation in 2010 email
    Angered by his exclusion from an important discussion, former Royal Mail lawyer told colleagues of the risks to the Post Office if, as planned, they publicly investigate allegations against its computer system
    Karl Flinders, Chief reporter and senior editor EMEA"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366555336/Angry-lawyer-warned-against-Post-Office-computer-investigation-in-2010-email

    "Top Post Office solicitor told colleagues: ‘Get on with prosecuting’
    By John Hyde"

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/top-post-office-solicitor-told-colleagues-get-on-with-prosecuting/5117538.article

    The story gets worse and worse.
    Stunning.

    If the Inquiry does its work properly, and it is followed up rigorously, we can expect to see hundreds in court facing charges of perjury and attempting to pervert the course of justice.
    In my bid for the most blatant statement of the obvious this morning, I would comment that I wouldn't count on it. It is one of the worst failures of our justice system in history but it will be swept away with very few, if any, being actually held to account.
    If that does turn out to be the case, perhaps someone might try to persuade the Good Law Project to fund cases for malicious prosecution ?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,921
    kle4 said:

    On the Australian referendum ballot paper, you actually have to write ‘YES’ or ‘NO’. I doubt the Electoral Commission would give their blessing to that here.

    https://x.com/jeromelaxale/status/1713026808474636334

    Unfair because it means you have to right 50% more letters to be in favour rather than against.

    Oh, the arguments of whether people writing Y and N, or Yep, count.
    Surely it should be N'urries vs Naur? Or Fair Dinkum vs Dodgy?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    edited October 2023
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "‘Angry’ lawyer warned against Post Office computer investigation in 2010 email
    Angered by his exclusion from an important discussion, former Royal Mail lawyer told colleagues of the risks to the Post Office if, as planned, they publicly investigate allegations against its computer system
    Karl Flinders, Chief reporter and senior editor EMEA"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366555336/Angry-lawyer-warned-against-Post-Office-computer-investigation-in-2010-email

    "Top Post Office solicitor told colleagues: ‘Get on with prosecuting’
    By John Hyde"

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/top-post-office-solicitor-told-colleagues-get-on-with-prosecuting/5117538.article

    The story gets worse and worse.
    Stunning.

    If the Inquiry does its work properly, and it is followed up rigorously, we can expect to see hundreds in court facing charges of perjury and attempting to pervert the course of justice.
    In my bid for the most blatant statement of the obvious this morning, I would comment that I wouldn't count on it. It is one of the worst failures of our justice system in history but it will be swept away with very few, if any, being actually held to account.
    I'd be amazed if anyone gets more than a slap on the wrist - (metaphorically speaking, I don't want to get arrested for advocating violence).
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100
    edited October 2023
    Is it any wonder the FA failed to show adequate support for murdered victims of Hamas terrorism, this time, with people like this informing the decision.

    https://x.com/yisraelchaiadam/status/1712949053170860282?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,166
    Andy_JS said:

    Met police seem to have said anyone with a Hamas flag will be arrested.

    Could be an 'interesting' day in the capital I guess.

    I think they might just have a manpower/womanpower problem with arresting everyone with a Hamas flag.
    And with 500 odd empty spaces in the entire prison system, it's not as if they are going to be sending anyone down for it either.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    The Australian referendum issue for yes was there wasn’t a clear plan for how they would implement the vote . One hopes this was the main reason for No winning and not depressingly that so many Aussies are racist .

    Its not racism, its that the Voice was a terribly implemented bad idea.

    The general principle got an overwhelming 70%+ support at first, it was only when people learnt more about it that it became rejected.
    It’s a shame because a No vote sends a very poor message to the rest of the world .
    It doesn’t really, apart from a few global activists, the Guardian, PB and other global political geek websites and inevitably a UN committee on Racism chaired by a country where they have grim human rights the rest of the world doesn’t know or care about this story.

    The rest of the world will continue to think “Australia, crocodile Dundee, kangaroos, boomerangs and throwing shrimps on the barbie”.
    Quite so

    If anything has damaged Australia's image this week it has been the sight of a large crowd outside Sydney Opera House chanting “gas the Jews! Gas the Jews!”

    Absolutely fucking hideous

    If I were Australian, THAT would make me ashamed
    We can hardly talk, looking at some of the scenes coming out of London and elsewhere this week, that makes me totally ashamed too.
    Well yes. But we’ve not had a large crowd outside Westminster screaming “gas the Jews!”

    I mean, it is beyond despicable. Makes the blood run cold. WTAF
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    theProle said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Met police seem to have said anyone with a Hamas flag will be arrested.

    Could be an 'interesting' day in the capital I guess.

    I think they might just have a manpower/womanpower problem with arresting everyone with a Hamas flag.
    And with 500 odd empty spaces in the entire prison system, it's not as if they are going to be sending anyone down for it either.


    Odd empty places? How come we're talking about Fabricant's head?
  • Taz said:

    Is it any wonder the FA failed to show adequate support for murdered victims of terrorism, this time, with people like this informing the decision.

    https://x.com/yisraelchaiadam/status/1712949053170860282?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    Outright anti-Semite in charge of "inclusion". Quelle surprise!

    When it comes to "inclusion" then David Baddiel's book is completely accurate: Jews don't count.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,030
    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Leon said:

    YES already losing badly after just 0.5% votes counted in Oz

    63-37

    It’s gonna be a thrashing, and a humiliation for the PM

    Is this the Australia referendum? Rural Tasmania likely to be reporting first.

    Somewhere, some Australian is keeping an AndyJS style spreadsheet and knows exactly what that means.
    The BBC will be very disappointed if the referendum is lost. The first piece of theirs I read on the issue was basically 'Yes is marvellous, No are mostly racists'.

    Happily, since it's nothing to do with me or this country there's nothing riding on the outcome one way or another so no emotional component.
    It’s a fun one for me because I love seeing the Woke humiliated and also it’s a test of my knowledge of Australia, and the flavour of politics in each district

    So far I’m doing ok. I’ve noticed my younger daughter’s district - Berowra, NSW - is pretty much exactly 50/50
    What’s woke about Yes . Putting aside the issues around the practicalities of implementation. Or don’t you think people should be treated equally ?

    You do come out with a lot of detritus interspersed with some interesting posts when you’re not trying to be controversial!
    Absolutely people should be treated equally

    The Voice was giving special representation to a segment of society. That’s not equal treatment.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Sandpit said:

    boulay said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    The Australian referendum issue for yes was there wasn’t a clear plan for how they would implement the vote . One hopes this was the main reason for No winning and not depressingly that so many Aussies are racist .

    Its not racism, its that the Voice was a terribly implemented bad idea.

    The general principle got an overwhelming 70%+ support at first, it was only when people learnt more about it that it became rejected.
    It’s a shame because a No vote sends a very poor message to the rest of the world .
    It doesn’t really, apart from a few global activists, the Guardian, PB and other global political geek websites and inevitably a UN committee on Racism chaired by a country where they have grim human rights the rest of the world doesn’t know or care about this story.

    The rest of the world will continue to think “Australia, crocodile Dundee, kangaroos, boomerangs and throwing shrimps on the barbie”.
    You forgot cricket and Fosters.

    The latter is just as well, nobody in Australia drinks that pisswater.
    Even the Aussies themselves have forgotten rugby.
    Their performances in India suggest they've forgotten cricket too.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100
    From The Guardian live feed on the Aussie referendum it looks like the political classes, or those quoted, are disappointed and this issue will be back.

    A peoples vote perhaps so they can vote the right way ?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,571
    edited October 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I got my printer working again by basically switching off my entire home and switching everything on again. Process took 30 minutes. Convenient

    Printers are genuinely evil things.

    I always recommend people get a Laserjet rather than an inkjet printer, they’re a million times more reliable and you change the toner every 10,000 pages or so.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/HP-LaserJet-M283fdw-Multi-Function-Commercial/dp/B081FGS43D
    This is the best advice you will read all day.
    I once spent three years running IT support for an office of about 350 people. My biggest single achievement in that time, was to get a large number of small printers replaced, by a small number of large printers with service contracts!

    It saved us tens thousands of pounds a year in supplies, replacements, and an inordinate amount of labour responding to the constant calls about the bloody things not working properly. From memory we started off with about 30 printers, and finished with six proper copier/printer/scanner thingies, plus three new small printers for the CEO and heads of finance and HR. Each HoD would also get a weekly report on how much each of their team was using the printers, in an attempt to get them to save paper.
    I agree that inkjet printers are the bastard offspring of a satanic marketing department and people who buy Range Rovers.

    Interesting - I have several printers, including a colour A3 duplex effort that can deal with all the output in an Estate Agents' office, and one that will do commercial quality Giclee at A1 size. Buying new inks for that is an experience, which cost about £500 just for compatibles not originals.

    My suggestion would be a low end monchrome A4 laser duplex, which will cost perhaps £100-150 and last a decade. I have a Samsung Xpress M2835DW bought in 2017, which is still going strong. Samsung printers are now part of HP since 2016.

    My comment on the HP is that I wouldn't get a multifunction device. If I want to "scan" I put it on a well lit surface and take a photograph, which does about 95%+ of requirements OK.
  • DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "‘Angry’ lawyer warned against Post Office computer investigation in 2010 email
    Angered by his exclusion from an important discussion, former Royal Mail lawyer told colleagues of the risks to the Post Office if, as planned, they publicly investigate allegations against its computer system
    Karl Flinders, Chief reporter and senior editor EMEA"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366555336/Angry-lawyer-warned-against-Post-Office-computer-investigation-in-2010-email

    "Top Post Office solicitor told colleagues: ‘Get on with prosecuting’
    By John Hyde"

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/top-post-office-solicitor-told-colleagues-get-on-with-prosecuting/5117538.article

    The story gets worse and worse.
    Stunning.

    If the Inquiry does its work properly, and it is followed up rigorously, we can expect to see hundreds in court facing charges of perjury and attempting to pervert the course of justice.
    In my bid for the most blatant statement of the obvious this morning, I would comment that I wouldn't count on it. It is one of the worst failures of our justice system in history but it will be swept away with very few, if any, being actually held to account.
    You may well be right, David.

    There are some senior judges and other pillars of the establishment who don't come out of it too well.

    We'll see. At present the case for multiple charges of perjury and perverting the course of justice looks overwhelming.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    The Australian referendum issue for yes was there wasn’t a clear plan for how they would implement the vote . One hopes this was the main reason for No winning and not depressingly that so many Aussies are racist .

    Its not racism, its that the Voice was a terribly implemented bad idea.

    The general principle got an overwhelming 70%+ support at first, it was only when people learnt more about it that it became rejected.
    It’s a shame because a No vote sends a very poor message to the rest of the world .
    It doesn’t really, apart from a few global activists, the Guardian, PB and other global political geek websites and inevitably a UN committee on Racism chaired by a country where they have grim human rights the rest of the world doesn’t know or care about this story.

    The rest of the world will continue to think “Australia, crocodile Dundee, kangaroos, boomerangs and throwing shrimps on the barbie”.
    Quite so

    If anything has damaged Australia's image this week it has been the sight of a large crowd outside Sydney Opera House chanting “gas the Jews! Gas the Jews!”

    Absolutely fucking hideous

    If I were Australian, THAT would make me ashamed
    We can hardly talk, looking at some of the scenes coming out of London and elsewhere this week, that makes me totally ashamed too.
    In a perverse way it could also make us proud that we make up a country where these protesters aren’t tear-gassed, rounded up and tortured then sent to a nasty prison and never heard from again.

    I’m guessing the pro-Israel protesters in Tehran this week have just been monitored by the Iranian police but allowed their free speech. What’s that you say? Nobody would dare?
    Actually, not correct:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12609719/Moment-courageous-Iranian-football-fans-tell-pro-Palestine-supporters-flag-shove-attempt-regime-backers-rally-Hamas-football-match.html

    But - I don't know what happened to the members of that crowd.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    edited October 2023
    Winston Peters could still be required for a government if the results change slightly, with overhang seats, as mentioned earlier.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o59PTrjiyjs
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,679
    Andy_JS said:

    Capacity 132,000 crowd to watch India v Pakistan in the Narendra Modi Stadium in Ahmedabad. Umpire/officials are mostly from England, (also South Africa and Zimbabwe).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66854577

    Rory Stewart has been labeling Rishi Sunak as a right wing populist. I'm still waiting for Wembley/Lords to be renamed the Rishi Sunak stadium. I think it is probably quite difficult to govern in a democracy without any populist element. Thatcher? Yes. Blair? Yes. Cameron? Yes. Johnson was probably the closest we have got to a true one. But Sunak? Come on! He's in the former category of leaders who might have played for the odd headline but hardly governed as a raging populist.

    I'd be interested to know what Stewart thinks of Cameron and Johnson, or whether as Old Etonians they get a fairer assessment.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,571

    Met police seem to have said anyone with a Hamas flag will be arrested.

    Could be an 'interesting' day in the capital I guess.

    Hamas are a terrorist organisation - no dispute there - so the laws and the powers exist to do this. I'm interested in two things:

    Has this type of arrest been made before for a terrorist-organisation supporter waving a flag? Which law is such an arrest made under?

    Unlikely perhaps to be Hamas going back some way, as Hamas were proscribed in 2 stages - the military side in 2001, and the rest of it in 2021, when it was assessed that the military / political distinction was artificial.

    I put that split down to Foreign Office confused thinking, which would allow a potential excuse that "but .. but ... but I only support the political side".



  • Andy_JS said:

    Winston Peters could still be required for a government if the results change slightly, with overhang seats, as mentioned earlier.

    The most extraordinary result so far is that National is 200 votes ahead in Mount Albert with 57% counted. This was Jacinda's seat (and Helen Clark's before that). Jacinda had 71% last time. NZ TV and radio commentators saying that the loss is Jacinda's fault and people don't like the fact she cut and run when it got hard.

    Sounds like Hipkins will quit but he's not getting blamed.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Winston Peters could still be required for a government if the results change slightly, with overhang seats, as mentioned earlier.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o59PTrjiyjs

    My Kiwi partner is worried that they will require NZ First as "Peters always ruins everything"
  • Andy_JS said:

    Capacity 132,000 crowd to watch India v Pakistan in the Narendra Modi Stadium in Ahmedabad. Umpire/officials are mostly from England, (also South Africa and Zimbabwe).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66854577

    Rory Stewart has been labeling Rishi Sunak as a right wing populist. I'm still waiting for Wembley/Lords to be renamed the Rishi Sunak stadium. I think it is probably quite difficult to govern in a democracy without any populist element. Thatcher? Yes. Blair? Yes. Cameron? Yes. Johnson was probably the closest we have got to a true one. But Sunak? Come on! He's in the former category of leaders who might have played for the odd headline but hardly governed as a raging populist.

    I'd be interested to know what Stewart thinks of Cameron and Johnson, or whether as Old Etonians they get a fairer assessment.
    Rishi avoids it himself but has no problem giving the populists like Braverman free reign to woo extremists with language which is often the exact opposite of his own position, as on whether integration has gone well or badly in the UK.

    I doubt Cameron would have stood for that. Stewart would be far more scathing of Johnson, rightly so.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    NO edging further ahead again. 56/44

    With Qld and WA to come I reckon my prediction of 58/42 NO will be close to the mark
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    It is not impossible the Tories could gain seats in Scotland due to the declining SNP vote, even if they lose seats in the UK overall and lose power to Labour
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,679

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "‘Angry’ lawyer warned against Post Office computer investigation in 2010 email
    Angered by his exclusion from an important discussion, former Royal Mail lawyer told colleagues of the risks to the Post Office if, as planned, they publicly investigate allegations against its computer system
    Karl Flinders, Chief reporter and senior editor EMEA"

    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366555336/Angry-lawyer-warned-against-Post-Office-computer-investigation-in-2010-email

    "Top Post Office solicitor told colleagues: ‘Get on with prosecuting’
    By John Hyde"

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/top-post-office-solicitor-told-colleagues-get-on-with-prosecuting/5117538.article

    The story gets worse and worse.
    Stunning.

    If the Inquiry does its work properly, and it is followed up rigorously, we can expect to see hundreds in court facing charges of perjury and attempting to pervert the course of justice.
    In my bid for the most blatant statement of the obvious this morning, I would comment that I wouldn't count on it. It is one of the worst failures of our justice system in history but it will be swept away with very few, if any, being actually held to account.
    You may well be right, David.

    There are some senior judges and other pillars of the establishment who don't come out of it too well.

    We'll see. At present the case for multiple charges of perjury and perverting the course of justice looks overwhelming.
    This ought to be meat and drink for Starmer. And if Sunak REALLY wants to present himself as a break with the past he could take it seriously. What is stopping them? Do we have to wait for all the drama to finish playing out?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    HYUFD said:

    It is not impossible the Tories could gain seats in Scotland due to the declining SNP vote, even if they lose seats in the UK overall and lose power to Labour

    That did happen in 2017 (minus the losing power), but if the Tories drop more than they did then, which seems likely, will they really be able to hold on and gain in Scotland even then?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    Maybe one of the reasons the Tories are doing slightly better in Scotland is because it has an older population than England, and the Conservatives do best with that age group.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,571
    edited October 2023
    Morning all.

    ON the header (thanks, Mike), does anyone have any thoughts on why Lisa Cameron defected to the Conservatives, and not to Labour?

    Looking at the results from the last Election, where Lab + Tories were about equal on 12k votes, and the SNP were on 26k, she appears to be leaping onto an already half-sunk ship. Why?

    Will she have much of a personal vote, having been an MP for a few years there?


  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,751
    edited October 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    Capacity 132,000 crowd to watch India v Pakistan in the Narendra Modi Stadium in Ahmedabad. Umpire/officials are mostly from England, (also South Africa and Zimbabwe).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66854577

    Rory Stewart has been labeling Rishi Sunak as a right wing populist. I'm still waiting for Wembley/Lords to be renamed the Rishi Sunak stadium. I think it is probably quite difficult to govern in a democracy without any populist element. Thatcher? Yes. Blair? Yes. Cameron? Yes. Johnson was probably the closest we have got to a true one. But Sunak? Come on! He's in the former category of leaders who might have played for the odd headline but hardly governed as a raging populist.

    I'd be interested to know what Stewart thinks of Cameron and Johnson, or whether as Old Etonians they get a fairer assessment.
    I perhaps naively assume popularity would be a component in populism, right wing or otherwise.
    Rishi is foolishly aping populism, it’s just that he’s very, very bad at it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    ON the header (thanks, Mike), does anyone have any thoughts on why Lisa Cameron defected to the Conservatives, and not to Labour?

    Article upthread suggests Sunak was instrumental in getting her to defect - maybe Labour didn't try.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    "The ABC projects a No vote in NSW and Tasmania. If one more state is called for No, then the referendum will be defeated."

    https://www.abc.net.au/news


    With 35% in No 56% and Yes 43. No ahead by over 60% in Queensland and South Australia, over 55% in Tasmania and NSW and over 50% in Victoria. So far only ACT which contains Canberra has voted Yes. Looks like at least as big a win for No as the 1999 monarchy referendum and 2014 Scottish referendum and even bigger than Brexit.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news

    Also looks like a good morning for King Charles III. If Labor PM Albanese had won this Voice for Aborigines referendum he would have then started to press for a republic referendum. However Yes having been trounced he won't risk it and Albanese will now have to put it on the backburner and find some constitutional settlement for Aborigines that most Australians will accept.

    In NZ meanwhile it also looks like the republican Labor government and republican Labor PM Hipkins has been defeated too and the conservative Nationals will return to power and the monarchist Winston Peters could well have the balance of power
  • MattW said:

    Morning all.

    ON the header (thanks, Mike), does anyone have any thoughts on why Lisa Cameron defected to the Conservatives, and not to Labour?

    Looking at the results from the last Election, where Lab + Tories were about equal on 12k votes, and the SNP were on 26k, she appears to be leaping onto an already half-sunk ship. Why?

    Will she have much of a personal vote, having been an MP for a few years there?


    Amongst her various somewhat confusing statements, the seemingly verifiable one is that Cameron is not standing in her old seat.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,571
    PS.

    Thank-you for your local-knowledge reply at 4:37am, @JosiasJessop .

    I know St Ives well - family friends who rented the other half of my parents' first house in 196x moved down by St Ives Church in the 1970s, and the lady from the couple still lives in the same house in her late 80s. We used to go out canoeing together when I was in my early teens :smile: - great memories ,
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    edited October 2023
    Interestingly it looks like while outer suburbs and rural areas in Australia have overwhelmingly rejected the Voice, most inner city areas have backed it. Even wealthy areas like Wentworth which has an Independent and used to be strong Liberal. Similar demographics to Brexit
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The ABC projects a No vote in NSW and Tasmania. If one more state is called for No, then the referendum will be defeated."

    https://www.abc.net.au/news


    With 35% in No 56% and Yes 43. No ahead by over 60% in Queensland and South Australia, over 55% in Tasmania and NSW and over 50% in Victoria. So far only ACT which contains Canberra has voted Yes. Looks like at least as big a win for No as the 1999 monarchy referendum and 2014 Scottish referendum and even bigger than Brexit.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news

    Also looks like a good morning for King Charles III. If Labor PM Albanese had won this Voice for Aborigines referendum he would have then started to press for a republic referendum. However Yes having been trounced he won't risk it and Albanese will now have to put it on the backburner and find some constitutional settlement for Aborigines that most Australians will accept.

    In NZ meanwhile it also looks like the republican Labor government and republican Labor PM Hipkins has been defeated too and the conservative Nationals will return to power and the monarchist Winston Peters could well have the balance of power
    "Even bigger than the Brexit win" is not, to be fair, an especially tough ask
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646
    edited October 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Morning all, internet issues (BT Hub a solid orange) :( so tethering from phone.

    Does anyone have any technical advice, does this mean the hub has packed up and needs replacing?

    Thanks,

    DC

    All I can recommend is switching it off for a while, turn it on again, and see if it starts working properly.
    So you are an IT guy then?
    “Hello, IT. Have you tried turning it off and on again?”

    Genius television. https://youtube.com/watch?v=nn2FB1P_Mn8

    It even works on trains:

    https://youtu.be/86oqnk--X_A?si=A9fJD-wqsMVLUlWc

    (fast forward to 12:00)
    Planes as well. Pilots are often asked to ‘cycle’ a circuit breaker or two, in response to problems with systems in flight, and the systems are designed to reset and in some cases recalibrate themselves, following a power cycle.
    And Galaxy-class starships

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fZFavY3PLf4
    https://www.reddit.com/r/TNG/comments/ssxdq6/i_find_it_absolutely_hilarious_that_the_solution/
  • Watching the ABC coverage:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKgaw1JaJOw

    there are strong echoes of the 2011 AV referendum in this country.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    Leon said:

    NO edging further ahead again. 56/44

    With Qld and WA to come I reckon my prediction of 58/42 NO will be close to the mark

    Now 57/43.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is not impossible the Tories could gain seats in Scotland due to the declining SNP vote, even if they lose seats in the UK overall and lose power to Labour

    That did happen in 2017 (minus the losing power), but if the Tories drop more than they did then, which seems likely, will they really be able to hold on and gain in Scotland even then?
    Even the SNP drop even more Yes. On latest Scottish polls SNP down over 10% since 2019 but the Tories down only 6%
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972

    Watching the ABC coverage:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKgaw1JaJOw

    there are strong echoes of the 2011 AV referendum in this country.

    It isn't quite that big, No won the AV referendum 67% to 32% (I did vote Yes ironically)
  • Andy_JS said:

    Capacity 132,000 crowd to watch India v Pakistan in the Narendra Modi Stadium in Ahmedabad. Umpire/officials are mostly from England, (also South Africa and Zimbabwe).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66854577

    Rory Stewart has been labeling Rishi Sunak as a right wing populist. I'm still waiting for Wembley/Lords to be renamed the Rishi Sunak stadium. I think it is probably quite difficult to govern in a democracy without any populist element. Thatcher? Yes. Blair? Yes. Cameron? Yes. Johnson was probably the closest we have got to a true one. But Sunak? Come on! He's in the former category of leaders who might have played for the odd headline but hardly governed as a raging populist.

    I'd be interested to know what Stewart thinks of Cameron and Johnson, or whether as Old Etonians they get a fairer assessment.
    Its another irregular verb:

    I listen to the people
    You play to the gallery
    He is a populist

    People who loudly decry 'populism' would seem to prefer a system where 'people like them' don't get a vote and decisions are take by 'people like me'.
    It is a bit of a rubbish word as there are several slightly different meanings plus it also gets conflated with popularity.

    I, softly but persistently, decry the type of politics that puts one group against another scapegoat group in search of cheap votes. Call it what you will.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,679

    Andy_JS said:

    Capacity 132,000 crowd to watch India v Pakistan in the Narendra Modi Stadium in Ahmedabad. Umpire/officials are mostly from England, (also South Africa and Zimbabwe).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66854577

    Rory Stewart has been labeling Rishi Sunak as a right wing populist. I'm still waiting for Wembley/Lords to be renamed the Rishi Sunak stadium. I think it is probably quite difficult to govern in a democracy without any populist element. Thatcher? Yes. Blair? Yes. Cameron? Yes. Johnson was probably the closest we have got to a true one. But Sunak? Come on! He's in the former category of leaders who might have played for the odd headline but hardly governed as a raging populist.

    I'd be interested to know what Stewart thinks of Cameron and Johnson, or whether as Old Etonians they get a fairer assessment.
    Rishi avoids it himself but has no problem giving the populists like Braverman free reign to woo extremists with language which is often the exact opposite of his own position, as on whether integration has gone well or badly in the UK.

    I doubt Cameron would have stood for that. Stewart would be far more scathing of Johnson, rightly so.
    The bigger issue may be that he didn't get a mandate from the members and he is trying to keep the party together. That means some difficult compromises. I thought it was a moment of weakness in bringing back Braverman and now he is stuck with her.

    The funny thing is that she is seriously unpopular with the electorate.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Victoria edging to NO. Looks like Albanese/YES will lose every single state. Impressive
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    NO edging further ahead again. 56/44

    With Qld and WA to come I reckon my prediction of 58/42 NO will be close to the mark

    Now 57/43.
    Also an utter humiliation for Wokeism down under, most Australians overwhelmingly rejecting a specific voice for Aborigines to the Australian Parliament despite almost all left liberals and urban elites in Australia pushing for it.

    That said, there still needs to be some means to better consult Aborigines, they being the original peoples' of Australia after all
  • HYUFD said:

    Watching the ABC coverage:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKgaw1JaJOw

    there are strong echoes of the 2011 AV referendum in this country.

    It isn't quite that big, No won the AV referendum 67% to 32% (I did vote Yes ironically)
    Its the media criticism of the outer suburbs for not voting the same as the 'highly educated' inner cities.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    Leon said:

    Victoria edging to NO. Looks like Albanese/YES will lose every single state. Impressive

    Yes, albeit Australian Capital Territory has gone Yes and they might win Northern Territory which has the biggest aborigine population
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100

    Andy_JS said:

    Winston Peters could still be required for a government if the results change slightly, with overhang seats, as mentioned earlier.

    The most extraordinary result so far is that National is 200 votes ahead in Mount Albert with 57% counted. This was Jacinda's seat (and Helen Clark's before that). Jacinda had 71% last time. NZ TV and radio commentators saying that the loss is Jacinda's fault and people don't like the fact she cut and run when it got hard.

    Sounds like Hipkins will quit but he's not getting blamed.
    Saint Jacinda is now radiating her goodness at Prince Williams vanity project. The Earthshot Prize.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    You don't get swings like this in UK elections, where a seat that was 71% to 19% is possibly going to go the other way. Canada and NZ have these big swings from time to time.

    Surprising as the main parties seem fairly far apart politically at the moment. You’d expect the swingiest elections to be in countries where the parties are managerial rather than ideological, so more people are prepared to switch votes.
    Oddly, it's Canada that has the swingiest elections, with once-dominant parties being relegated to fringe status overnight.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Victoria edging to NO. Looks like Albanese/YES will lose every single state. Impressive

    Yes, albeit Australian Capital Territory has gone Yes and they might win Northern Territory which has the biggest aborigine population
    Winning the NT would be a feat. Darwin is by far the biggest population and would be - I'm guessing - decidedly NO
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Interesting editorial admission from the BBC:

    Update 13th October: A section of this article outlining the debate over Australia's Voice to Parliament proposal has been amended to more precisely summarise the points at issue.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-67076216

    This was what was removed:



    https://x.com/s8mb/status/1712562983979696479?s=20
  • Andy_JS said:

    Capacity 132,000 crowd to watch India v Pakistan in the Narendra Modi Stadium in Ahmedabad. Umpire/officials are mostly from England, (also South Africa and Zimbabwe).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66854577

    Rory Stewart has been labeling Rishi Sunak as a right wing populist. I'm still waiting for Wembley/Lords to be renamed the Rishi Sunak stadium. I think it is probably quite difficult to govern in a democracy without any populist element. Thatcher? Yes. Blair? Yes. Cameron? Yes. Johnson was probably the closest we have got to a true one. But Sunak? Come on! He's in the former category of leaders who might have played for the odd headline but hardly governed as a raging populist.

    I'd be interested to know what Stewart thinks of Cameron and Johnson, or whether as Old Etonians they get a fairer assessment.
    Its another irregular verb:

    I listen to the people
    You play to the gallery
    He is a populist

    People who loudly decry 'populism' would seem to prefer a system where 'people like them' don't get a vote and decisions are take by 'people like me'.
    It is a bit of a rubbish word as there are several slightly different meanings plus it also gets conflated with popularity.

    I, softly but persistently, decry the type of politics that puts one group against another scapegoat group in search of cheap votes. Call it what you will.
    That's an inevitable consequence of politicians making promises they cannot keep and wealth consumption rising at a faster pace than wealth creation.

    So to keep one group satisfied another group must lose out.

    And its easier to take from a group if they've first been demonised.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    Interesting editorial admission from the BBC:

    Update 13th October: A section of this article outlining the debate over Australia's Voice to Parliament proposal has been amended to more precisely summarise the points at issue.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-67076216

    This was what was removed:



    https://x.com/s8mb/status/1712562983979696479?s=20

    That is absolutely disgraceful reporting. It's like Russia Today analying the British elections
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    Leon said:

    Victoria edging to NO. Looks like Albanese/YES will lose every single state. Impressive

    It could still be 60/40 because 56% still to count.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646
    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Winston Peters could still be required for a government if the results change slightly, with overhang seats, as mentioned earlier.

    The most extraordinary result so far is that National is 200 votes ahead in Mount Albert with 57% counted. This was Jacinda's seat (and Helen Clark's before that). Jacinda had 71% last time. NZ TV and radio commentators saying that the loss is Jacinda's fault and people don't like the fact she cut and run when it got hard.

    Sounds like Hipkins will quit but he's not getting blamed.
    Saint Jacinda is now radiating her goodness at Prince Williams vanity project. The Earthshot Prize.
    I remember when being the President or PM of a country was the greatest honour a politician could have. Now it seems to be just a step on the way to well-paid sinecures with lots of travel and expenses.
  • A nowadays rare zinger from The Onion.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    The Yes people not taking it well (Guardian)


    "Over on SBS, Professor Marcia Langton had some very straight talk:

    'It’s very clear that reconciliation is dead. A majority of Australians have said no to an invitation from Indigenous Australia, with a minimal proposition, to give us a bare say in matters that affect our lives, advice that doesn’t need to be taken by the Parliament.

    And a proposition that the vast majority of retired High Court judges and constitutional experts affirmed as being constitutionally safe, sound, and moreover, elegant and practical.

    I think the No campaigners have a lot to answer for in poisoning Australia against this proposition and against Indigenous Australia.'"

    Translation: Australians are horrible racist scum, UGH
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    edited October 2023
    LOL

    The Guardian is now reaching out to Australian readers who might be suicidal

    "It is a tough night for a lot of our readers. A reminder –you are not alone. And if you need to speak to someone, please do so;

    13YARN (13 92 76)

    Lifeline 13 11 14"
  • Andy_JS said:

    Capacity 132,000 crowd to watch India v Pakistan in the Narendra Modi Stadium in Ahmedabad. Umpire/officials are mostly from England, (also South Africa and Zimbabwe).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66854577

    Rory Stewart has been labeling Rishi Sunak as a right wing populist. I'm still waiting for Wembley/Lords to be renamed the Rishi Sunak stadium. I think it is probably quite difficult to govern in a democracy without any populist element. Thatcher? Yes. Blair? Yes. Cameron? Yes. Johnson was probably the closest we have got to a true one. But Sunak? Come on! He's in the former category of leaders who might have played for the odd headline but hardly governed as a raging populist.

    I'd be interested to know what Stewart thinks of Cameron and Johnson, or whether as Old Etonians they get a fairer assessment.
    Rishi avoids it himself but has no problem giving the populists like Braverman free reign to woo extremists with language which is often the exact opposite of his own position, as on whether integration has gone well or badly in the UK.

    I doubt Cameron would have stood for that. Stewart would be far more scathing of Johnson, rightly so.
    The bigger issue may be that he didn't get a mandate from the members and he is trying to keep the party together. That means some difficult compromises. I thought it was a moment of weakness in bringing back Braverman and now he is stuck with her.

    The funny thing is that she is seriously unpopular with the electorate.
    Popular with the members though. Some surprising ones in the list like Tugendhat in the top third. The ones who have been known the longest like Gove, Hunt and Shapps are amongst the most unpopular, which is a reflection of what happens to politicians who rise to the top of a party that promises to deliver unicorns.


    https://conservativehome.com/2023/09/29/our-cabinet-league-table-as-the-tory-conference-looms-and-in-the-wake-of-his-net-zero-speech-sunaks-position-rises/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Leon said:

    The Yes people not taking it well (Guardian)


    "Over on SBS, Professor Marcia Langton had some very straight talk:

    'It’s very clear that reconciliation is dead. A majority of Australians have said no to an invitation from Indigenous Australia, with a minimal proposition, to give us a bare say in matters that affect our lives, advice that doesn’t need to be taken by the Parliament.

    And a proposition that the vast majority of retired High Court judges and constitutional experts affirmed as being constitutionally safe, sound, and moreover, elegant and practical.

    I think the No campaigners have a lot to answer for in poisoning Australia against this proposition and against Indigenous Australia.'"

    Translation: Australians are horrible racist scum, UGH

    It's like BREXIT and Trump....."those fecking proles have got it wrong".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Nearly 20% of the votes in Northern Territory counted. NO ahead by 65/35

    Looks quite a reach for YES from there
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    Andy_JS said:

    Winston Peters could still be required for a government if the results change slightly, with overhang seats, as mentioned earlier.

    The most extraordinary result so far is that National is 200 votes ahead in Mount Albert with 57% counted. This was Jacinda's seat (and Helen Clark's before that). Jacinda had 71% last time. NZ TV and radio commentators saying that the loss is Jacinda's fault and people don't like the fact she cut and run when it got hard.

    Sounds like Hipkins will quit but he's not getting blamed.
    How could that be, I was assured that everyone found her decision to stand down to be heroically brave and honest and nothing but praiseworthy.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Winston Peters could still be required for a government if the results change slightly, with overhang seats, as mentioned earlier.

    The most extraordinary result so far is that National is 200 votes ahead in Mount Albert with 57% counted. This was Jacinda's seat (and Helen Clark's before that). Jacinda had 71% last time. NZ TV and radio commentators saying that the loss is Jacinda's fault and people don't like the fact she cut and run when it got hard.

    Sounds like Hipkins will quit but he's not getting blamed.
    Saint Jacinda is now radiating her goodness at Prince Williams vanity project. The Earthshot Prize.
    I remember when being the President or PM of a country was the greatest honour a politician could have. Now it seems to be just a step on the way to well-paid sinecures with lots of travel and expenses.
    Indeed. Sanna Marin also being a recent case in point and St Nicola of Sturgeon will probably end up somewhere similar too.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,122
    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1713122678477836398

    Chris Curtis
    @chriscurtis94
    It may be supprising that "No" won the Voice referendum, until you learn that Crosby Textor were working for the "Yes" campaign.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972

    Leon said:

    The Yes people not taking it well (Guardian)


    "Over on SBS, Professor Marcia Langton had some very straight talk:

    'It’s very clear that reconciliation is dead. A majority of Australians have said no to an invitation from Indigenous Australia, with a minimal proposition, to give us a bare say in matters that affect our lives, advice that doesn’t need to be taken by the Parliament.

    And a proposition that the vast majority of retired High Court judges and constitutional experts affirmed as being constitutionally safe, sound, and moreover, elegant and practical.

    I think the No campaigners have a lot to answer for in poisoning Australia against this proposition and against Indigenous Australia.'"

    Translation: Australians are horrible racist scum, UGH

    It's like BREXIT and Trump....."those fecking proles have got it wrong".
    And by an even greater margin than Brexit (and remember Trump never won the popular vote, almost 60% of Australians are voting No here, this is a near landslide)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    Leon said:

    The Yes people not taking it well (Guardian)


    "Over on SBS, Professor Marcia Langton had some very straight talk:

    'It’s very clear that reconciliation is dead. A majority of Australians have said no to an invitation from Indigenous Australia, with a minimal proposition, to give us a bare say in matters that affect our lives, advice that doesn’t need to be taken by the Parliament.

    And a proposition that the vast majority of retired High Court judges and constitutional experts affirmed as being constitutionally safe, sound, and moreover, elegant and practical.

    I think the No campaigners have a lot to answer for in poisoning Australia against this proposition and against Indigenous Australia.'"

    Translation: Australians are horrible racist scum, UGH

    Leaving aside anything else, it essentially seems to be saying it was inherently unreasonable for the No campaign to oppose Yes and try to convince other people to oppose Yes.

    It's common to seek to blame the voters but try to pretend you are not by blaming the people who convinced the voters (in this case poisoning them), but that statement does earlier on blame the voters directly (which is indeed admirably direct), so not sure why the other stuff.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    Leon said:

    LOL

    The Guardian is now reaching out to Australian readers who might be suicidal

    "It is a tough night for a lot of our readers. A reminder –you are not alone. And if you need to speak to someone, please do so;

    13YARN (13 92 76)

    Lifeline 13 11 14"

    A bit like Lloyds offering counselling to its staff affected by anti Trans rhetoric at the Tory conference
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100
    Leon said:

    The Yes people not taking it well (Guardian)


    "Over on SBS, Professor Marcia Langton had some very straight talk:

    'It’s very clear that reconciliation is dead. A majority of Australians have said no to an invitation from Indigenous Australia, with a minimal proposition, to give us a bare say in matters that affect our lives, advice that doesn’t need to be taken by the Parliament.

    And a proposition that the vast majority of retired High Court judges and constitutional experts affirmed as being constitutionally safe, sound, and moreover, elegant and practical.

    I think the No campaigners have a lot to answer for in poisoning Australia against this proposition and against Indigenous Australia.'"

    Translation: Australians are horrible racist scum, UGH

    We need to ship out the team behind ‘Peoples Vote’ to organised a campaign for them to vote and vote until they get it right.

    I’d be interested to see the demographic breakdown of the respective votes. Australia, in part, is quite multi racial.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Capacity 132,000 crowd to watch India v Pakistan in the Narendra Modi Stadium in Ahmedabad. Umpire/officials are mostly from England, (also South Africa and Zimbabwe).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66854577

    Rory Stewart has been labeling Rishi Sunak as a right wing populist. I'm still waiting for Wembley/Lords to be renamed the Rishi Sunak stadium. I think it is probably quite difficult to govern in a democracy without any populist element. Thatcher? Yes. Blair? Yes. Cameron? Yes. Johnson was probably the closest we have got to a true one. But Sunak? Come on! He's in the former category of leaders who might have played for the odd headline but hardly governed as a raging populist.

    I'd be interested to know what Stewart thinks of Cameron and Johnson, or whether as Old Etonians they get a fairer assessment.
    If you do not know of Rory Stewart's contempt for Boris, you've not been paying attention. That said, I've not noticed him describing Rishi as a right wing populist so perhaps I too am asleep on the job.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    Leon said:

    The Yes people not taking it well (Guardian)


    "Over on SBS, Professor Marcia Langton had some very straight talk:

    'It’s very clear that reconciliation is dead. A majority of Australians have said no to an invitation from Indigenous Australia, with a minimal proposition, to give us a bare say in matters that affect our lives, advice that doesn’t need to be taken by the Parliament.

    And a proposition that the vast majority of retired High Court judges and constitutional experts affirmed as being constitutionally safe, sound, and moreover, elegant and practical.

    I think the No campaigners have a lot to answer for in poisoning Australia against this proposition and against Indigenous Australia.'"

    Translation: Australians are horrible racist scum, UGH

    It's like BREXIT and Trump....."those fecking proles have got it wrong".
    When you lose a democratic election and your immediate reaction is: "the opposition have a lot to answer for" - ie my defeat is because my opponents are evil - then you are in a bad place

    What a stupid referendum to call. Now Australia is worse than it was, and the divisions are nastier

    THAT is what Albanese should get the blame for. Not losing a democratic vote. Calling it in the first place
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    Been doing a bookkeeping exercise while watching the cricket this morning, we had a discussion last month about whether or not the ONS should include till level discounts in their measure of CPI (I think they should, other people say they shouldn't) so I decided to track a month of receipts and till/app discounts only available to people who shop with loyalty card discounts.

    I spent the month shopping absolutely as normal and made no effort to change what I buy based on the discounts available, so items I got discounted was coincidental.

    On average the full price shop per week for my household (we shop in Sainsbury's) was £108.67, after loyalty discounts that average fell to £101.54 and after personalised discounts it fell to the actual average of £99.28. My wife suggested we take the extra step of doing the nectar stuff as well so she went into the nectar app every week and added all of the available personalised offers, after taking those additional nectar points into account the average weekly shop would yield an average of 440 nectar points, worth £2.20 making the average weekly basket cost an equivalent of £97.08.

    We saved an average of 11% off our weekly shop sticker price basically by just using the Sainsbury's smart shop app and nectar app, again with no effort made to actually take advantage of these offers by substituting products when they have a personalised discount or loyalty discount applied. If we multiplied our monthly saving by 12 to get the annualised rate it's £600 per year and I'm sure if we planned the shop in advance based on the offers available or just switched products based on what's in store that number would go up a bit.

    Overall - it was piss easy to do a once a week login to an app to apply personalised offers and using the shopping app in store rather than going to the till or using the hand scanner. Anyone not doing these things is missing potentially an 11% discount from their weekly shop.

    Now that we've fallen into the habit I'm pretty sure we're going to keep it going, there's no real downside.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Winston Peters could still be required for a government if the results change slightly, with overhang seats, as mentioned earlier.

    The most extraordinary result so far is that National is 200 votes ahead in Mount Albert with 57% counted. This was Jacinda's seat (and Helen Clark's before that). Jacinda had 71% last time. NZ TV and radio commentators saying that the loss is Jacinda's fault and people don't like the fact she cut and run when it got hard.

    Sounds like Hipkins will quit but he's not getting blamed.
    Saint Jacinda is now radiating her goodness at Prince Williams vanity project. The Earthshot Prize.
    I remember when being the President or PM of a country was the greatest honour a politician could have. Now it seems to be just a step on the way to well-paid sinecures with lots of travel and expenses.
    Wait till we see what Rishi gets, given his career as a politician will be over before he is 45. That's a lot of time to fill up, and I don't think many will Jimmy Carter as their retirement plan.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    Leon said:

    The Yes people not taking it well (Guardian)


    "Over on SBS, Professor Marcia Langton had some very straight talk:

    'It’s very clear that reconciliation is dead. A majority of Australians have said no to an invitation from Indigenous Australia, with a minimal proposition, to give us a bare say in matters that affect our lives, advice that doesn’t need to be taken by the Parliament.

    And a proposition that the vast majority of retired High Court judges and constitutional experts affirmed as being constitutionally safe, sound, and moreover, elegant and practical.

    I think the No campaigners have a lot to answer for in poisoning Australia against this proposition and against Indigenous Australia.'"

    Translation: Australians are horrible racist scum, UGH

    Translation: Next time don't trust the oiks to approve a liberal progressive, woke measure unless absolutely no doubt about the result
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Winston Peters could still be required for a government if the results change slightly, with overhang seats, as mentioned earlier.

    The most extraordinary result so far is that National is 200 votes ahead in Mount Albert with 57% counted. This was Jacinda's seat (and Helen Clark's before that). Jacinda had 71% last time. NZ TV and radio commentators saying that the loss is Jacinda's fault and people don't like the fact she cut and run when it got hard.

    Sounds like Hipkins will quit but he's not getting blamed.
    Saint Jacinda is now radiating her goodness at Prince Williams vanity project. The Earthshot Prize.
    I remember when being the President or PM of a country was the greatest honour a politician could have. Now it seems to be just a step on the way to well-paid sinecures with lots of travel and expenses.
    Indeed. Sanna Marin also being a recent case in point and St Nicola of Sturgeon will probably end up somewhere similar too.
    Provided she doesn't end up in prison.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Capacity 132,000 crowd to watch India v Pakistan in the Narendra Modi Stadium in Ahmedabad. Umpire/officials are mostly from England, (also South Africa and Zimbabwe).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66854577

    Rory Stewart has been labeling Rishi Sunak as a right wing populist. I'm still waiting for Wembley/Lords to be renamed the Rishi Sunak stadium. I think it is probably quite difficult to govern in a democracy without any populist element. Thatcher? Yes. Blair? Yes. Cameron? Yes. Johnson was probably the closest we have got to a true one. But Sunak? Come on! He's in the former category of leaders who might have played for the odd headline but hardly governed as a raging populist.

    I'd be interested to know what Stewart thinks of Cameron and Johnson, or whether as Old Etonians they get a fairer assessment.
    Its another irregular verb:

    I listen to the people
    You play to the gallery
    He is a populist

    People who loudly decry 'populism' would seem to prefer a system where 'people like them' don't get a vote and decisions are take by 'people like me'.
    It is a bit of a rubbish word as there are several slightly different meanings plus it also gets conflated with popularity.

    I, softly but persistently, decry the type of politics that puts one group against another scapegoat group in search of cheap votes. Call it what you will.
    That's an inevitable consequence of politicians making promises they cannot keep and wealth consumption rising at a faster pace than wealth creation.

    So to keep one group satisfied another group must lose out.

    And its easier to take from a group if they've first been demonised.
    The degree to which it happens varies between political parties and individual politicians within them. So the extent to which it happens and the extent of the damage it causes to the social fabric is not inevitable, even if one accepts your cynical worldview.

    Sunak could replace Braverman with someone else and reduce the damage but he sticks to her as he is frit and weak.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    Interesting editorial admission from the BBC:

    Update 13th October: A section of this article outlining the debate over Australia's Voice to Parliament proposal has been amended to more precisely summarise the points at issue.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-67076216

    This was what was removed:



    https://x.com/s8mb/status/1712562983979696479?s=20

    'More precisely summarise' is an amazing way of explaining cutting out a section like that, I may steal it for my own professional use.

    No, I didn't rewrite the whole thing, I was just more precisely summarising it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    edited October 2023
    Taz said:

    Interesting editorial admission from the BBC:

    Update 13th October: A section of this article outlining the debate over Australia's Voice to Parliament proposal has been amended to more precisely summarise the points at issue.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-67076216

    This was what was removed:



    https://x.com/s8mb/status/1712562983979696479?s=20

    Is it any wonder fewer and fewer people trust mainstream media reporting when it doesn’t even pretend to be anything more than a series of opinion pieces presented as news.
    If that's so, I don't understand why even more obvious opinion pieces presented as news is what is replacing it.

    It's like when a party loses an election massively and goes "The voters did not like what we stood for and voted for the complete opposite. What the voters clearly want is for us to double down on what we stood for, they are crying out for it".
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Yes people not taking it well (Guardian)


    "Over on SBS, Professor Marcia Langton had some very straight talk:

    'It’s very clear that reconciliation is dead. A majority of Australians have said no to an invitation from Indigenous Australia, with a minimal proposition, to give us a bare say in matters that affect our lives, advice that doesn’t need to be taken by the Parliament.

    And a proposition that the vast majority of retired High Court judges and constitutional experts affirmed as being constitutionally safe, sound, and moreover, elegant and practical.

    I think the No campaigners have a lot to answer for in poisoning Australia against this proposition and against Indigenous Australia.'"

    Translation: Australians are horrible racist scum, UGH

    It's like BREXIT and Trump....."those fecking proles have got it wrong".
    When you lose a democratic election and your immediate reaction is: "the opposition have a lot to answer for" - ie my defeat is because my opponents are evil - then you are in a bad place

    What a stupid referendum to call. Now Australia is worse than it was, and the divisions are nastier

    THAT is what Albanese should get the blame for. Not losing a democratic vote. Calling it in the first place
    If you go into a campaign with such an attitude, you deserve to lose, and you probably get people voting against you for that reason alone.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    edited October 2023
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The Yes people not taking it well (Guardian)


    "Over on SBS, Professor Marcia Langton had some very straight talk:

    'It’s very clear that reconciliation is dead. A majority of Australians have said no to an invitation from Indigenous Australia, with a minimal proposition, to give us a bare say in matters that affect our lives, advice that doesn’t need to be taken by the Parliament.

    And a proposition that the vast majority of retired High Court judges and constitutional experts affirmed as being constitutionally safe, sound, and moreover, elegant and practical.

    I think the No campaigners have a lot to answer for in poisoning Australia against this proposition and against Indigenous Australia.'"

    Translation: Australians are horrible racist scum, UGH

    We need to ship out the team behind ‘Peoples Vote’ to organised a campaign for them to vote and vote until they get it right.

    I’d be interested to see the demographic breakdown of the respective votes. Australia, in part, is quite multi racial.
    It's actually fairly simple in terms of electoral geography. Rich/young inner city Australia - specifically Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane - voted YES. Along with Canberra and Hobart (Perth will probably be the same)

    Everyone else voted NO

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    MaxPB said:

    Been doing a bookkeeping exercise while watching the cricket this morning, we had a discussion last month about whether or not the ONS should include till level discounts in their measure of CPI (I think they should, other people say they shouldn't) so I decided to track a month of receipts and till/app discounts only available to people who shop with loyalty card discounts.

    I spent the month shopping absolutely as normal and made no effort to change what I buy based on the discounts available, so items I got discounted was coincidental.

    On average the full price shop per week for my household (we shop in Sainsbury's) was £108.67, after loyalty discounts that average fell to £101.54 and after personalised discounts it fell to the actual average of £99.28. My wife suggested we take the extra step of doing the nectar stuff as well so she went into the nectar app every week and added all of the available personalised offers, after taking those additional nectar points into account the average weekly shop would yield an average of 440 nectar points, worth £2.20 making the average weekly basket cost an equivalent of £97.08.

    We saved an average of 11% off our weekly shop sticker price basically by just using the Sainsbury's smart shop app and nectar app, again with no effort made to actually take advantage of these offers by substituting products when they have a personalised discount or loyalty discount applied. If we multiplied our monthly saving by 12 to get the annualised rate it's £600 per year and I'm sure if we planned the shop in advance based on the offers available or just switched products based on what's in store that number would go up a bit.

    Overall - it was piss easy to do a once a week login to an app to apply personalised offers and using the shopping app in store rather than going to the till or using the hand scanner. Anyone not doing these things is missing potentially an 11% discount from their weekly shop.

    Now that we've fallen into the habit I'm pretty sure we're going to keep it going, there's no real downside.

    Or you could just go to Lidl or Aldi where the price is the price and save all that time wasted on book keeping. Marketing pricing scams just so you dont get ripped off are one of the more unpleasant features of shopping .
  • MaxPB said:

    Been doing a bookkeeping exercise while watching the cricket this morning, we had a discussion last month about whether or not the ONS should include till level discounts in their measure of CPI (I think they should, other people say they shouldn't) so I decided to track a month of receipts and till/app discounts only available to people who shop with loyalty card discounts.

    I spent the month shopping absolutely as normal and made no effort to change what I buy based on the discounts available, so items I got discounted was coincidental.

    On average the full price shop per week for my household (we shop in Sainsbury's) was £108.67, after loyalty discounts that average fell to £101.54 and after personalised discounts it fell to the actual average of £99.28. My wife suggested we take the extra step of doing the nectar stuff as well so she went into the nectar app every week and added all of the available personalised offers, after taking those additional nectar points into account the average weekly shop would yield an average of 440 nectar points, worth £2.20 making the average weekly basket cost an equivalent of £97.08.

    We saved an average of 11% off our weekly shop sticker price basically by just using the Sainsbury's smart shop app and nectar app, again with no effort made to actually take advantage of these offers by substituting products when they have a personalised discount or loyalty discount applied. If we multiplied our monthly saving by 12 to get the annualised rate it's £600 per year and I'm sure if we planned the shop in advance based on the offers available or just switched products based on what's in store that number would go up a bit.

    Overall - it was piss easy to do a once a week login to an app to apply personalised offers and using the shopping app in store rather than going to the till or using the hand scanner. Anyone not doing these things is missing potentially an 11% discount from their weekly shop.

    Now that we've fallen into the habit I'm pretty sure we're going to keep it going, there's no real downside.

    Life is much cheaper for those who are internet savvy, numerate and time rich. Any two from three also make a difference as well.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    MaxPB said:

    Been doing a bookkeeping exercise while watching the cricket this morning, we had a discussion last month about whether or not the ONS should include till level discounts in their measure of CPI (I think they should, other people say they shouldn't) so I decided to track a month of receipts and till/app discounts only available to people who shop with loyalty card discounts.

    I spent the month shopping absolutely as normal and made no effort to change what I buy based on the discounts available, so items I got discounted was coincidental.

    On average the full price shop per week for my household (we shop in Sainsbury's) was £108.67, after loyalty discounts that average fell to £101.54 and after personalised discounts it fell to the actual average of £99.28. My wife suggested we take the extra step of doing the nectar stuff as well so she went into the nectar app every week and added all of the available personalised offers, after taking those additional nectar points into account the average weekly shop would yield an average of 440 nectar points, worth £2.20 making the average weekly basket cost an equivalent of £97.08.

    We saved an average of 11% off our weekly shop sticker price basically by just using the Sainsbury's smart shop app and nectar app, again with no effort made to actually take advantage of these offers by substituting products when they have a personalised discount or loyalty discount applied. If we multiplied our monthly saving by 12 to get the annualised rate it's £600 per year and I'm sure if we planned the shop in advance based on the offers available or just switched products based on what's in store that number would go up a bit.

    Overall - it was piss easy to do a once a week login to an app to apply personalised offers and using the shopping app in store rather than going to the till or using the hand scanner. Anyone not doing these things is missing potentially an 11% discount from their weekly shop.

    Now that we've fallen into the habit I'm pretty sure we're going to keep it going, there's no real downside.

    Or you could just go to Lidl or Aldi where the price is the price and save all that time wasted on book keeping. Marketing pricing scams just so you dont get ripped off are one of the more unpleasant features of shopping .
    Nope, Lidl use the same loyalty pricing schemes and Aldi are introducing one before Xmas.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Capacity 132,000 crowd to watch India v Pakistan in the Narendra Modi Stadium in Ahmedabad. Umpire/officials are mostly from England, (also South Africa and Zimbabwe).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66854577

    Rory Stewart has been labeling Rishi Sunak as a right wing populist. I'm still waiting for Wembley/Lords to be renamed the Rishi Sunak stadium. I think it is probably quite difficult to govern in a democracy without any populist element. Thatcher? Yes. Blair? Yes. Cameron? Yes. Johnson was probably the closest we have got to a true one. But Sunak? Come on! He's in the former category of leaders who might have played for the odd headline but hardly governed as a raging populist.

    I'd be interested to know what Stewart thinks of Cameron and Johnson, or whether as Old Etonians they get a fairer assessment.
    Its another irregular verb:

    I listen to the people
    You play to the gallery
    He is a populist

    People who loudly decry 'populism' would seem to prefer a system where 'people like them' don't get a vote and decisions are take by 'people like me'.
    It is a bit of a rubbish word as there are several slightly different meanings plus it also gets conflated with popularity.

    I, softly but persistently, decry the type of politics that puts one group against another scapegoat group in search of cheap votes. Call it what you will.
    That's an inevitable consequence of politicians making promises they cannot keep and wealth consumption rising at a faster pace than wealth creation.

    So to keep one group satisfied another group must lose out.

    And its easier to take from a group if they've first been demonised.
    The degree to which it happens varies between political parties and individual politicians within them. So the extent to which it happens and the extent of the damage it causes to the social fabric is not inevitable, even if one accepts your cynical worldview.

    Sunak could replace Braverman with someone else and reduce the damage but he sticks to her as he is frit and weak.
    I think it was a mistake to let Braverman into government but now she's there its difficult to get rid of her.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    MaxPB said:

    Been doing a bookkeeping exercise while watching the cricket this morning, we had a discussion last month about whether or not the ONS should include till level discounts in their measure of CPI (I think they should, other people say they shouldn't) so I decided to track a month of receipts and till/app discounts only available to people who shop with loyalty card discounts.

    I spent the month shopping absolutely as normal and made no effort to change what I buy based on the discounts available, so items I got discounted was coincidental.

    On average the full price shop per week for my household (we shop in Sainsbury's) was £108.67, after loyalty discounts that average fell to £101.54 and after personalised discounts it fell to the actual average of £99.28. My wife suggested we take the extra step of doing the nectar stuff as well so she went into the nectar app every week and added all of the available personalised offers, after taking those additional nectar points into account the average weekly shop would yield an average of 440 nectar points, worth £2.20 making the average weekly basket cost an equivalent of £97.08.

    We saved an average of 11% off our weekly shop sticker price basically by just using the Sainsbury's smart shop app and nectar app, again with no effort made to actually take advantage of these offers by substituting products when they have a personalised discount or loyalty discount applied. If we multiplied our monthly saving by 12 to get the annualised rate it's £600 per year and I'm sure if we planned the shop in advance based on the offers available or just switched products based on what's in store that number would go up a bit.

    Overall - it was piss easy to do a once a week login to an app to apply personalised offers and using the shopping app in store rather than going to the till or using the hand scanner. Anyone not doing these things is missing potentially an 11% discount from their weekly shop.

    Now that we've fallen into the habit I'm pretty sure we're going to keep it going, there's no real downside.

    Life is much cheaper for those who are internet savvy, numerate and time rich. Any two from three also make a difference as well.
    I don't think time rich comes into it, my wife would do the nectar stuff in the car as we were parking, or just before I left if I was going solo. We have a one year old and my wife is pregnant so it's not as though we are time rich in general. It's just two taps on her phone to load the app and then tap "add all personalised offers". If anything the smart shop app saves us a lot of time because we can just walk out of the shop after paying at the self service tills rather than queuing at the manned tills.
  • A view from Ireland:

    Since the horrific attack by Hamas on innocent Israeli civilians last weekend, European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen has expressed unambiguous support for Israel regardless, apparently, of how it chooses to respond.

    The Israeli flag was projected on her headquarters, the Berlaymont, in the wake of the attacks and was hoisted alongside that of the European Union, and she invited the Israeli ambassador to the EU to join the weekly meeting of European commissioners on Wednesday.

    In public posts she declared that the European Union stands with Israel “today and in the days to come” and “in the next weeks”, an apparent signal not just of the bloc’s sympathy over the attacks but also its sanction for Israel’s retaliation.

    Her approach has caused deepening unease within European institutions and in national capitals as Israel undertakes what the Taoiseach has described as “collective punishment” against the people of Gaza, cutting off water, food and electricity, and now ordering over a million people to evacuate in 24 hours to the alarm of the United Nations.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2023/10/13/as-von-der-leyen-visits-israel-is-the-commission-overstretching-its-powers/

    It seems like only yesterday that UvdL & the EU condemned attacks on critical infrastructure but in fact it was last Tuesday (in connection with the Finland/Estonia pipeline).
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,779
    Over 80% counted in New Zealand.

    National have slipped back to just under 40% and 50 seats, Labour on 26.5% and 34 seats. Greens have 13, ACT 12, NZ First 8 and Maori 4 so that gives National-ACT 62 seats in the 121 seat Parliament with all other parties on 59.

    Labour leader Chris Hipkins has in the past hour conceded defeat to National leader Christopher Luxon but the evidence shows it's been less a vote for National as a vote against Labour.

    However, worth noting National seem to be doing very well in a number of previously safe Labour seats and the seat totals may well change as we get the seats counted.
This discussion has been closed.