Wikipedia: " Since 2007, the Gaza Strip has been ruled by Hamas, and sexual activity between men is illegal due to Hamas' enforcement of Islamic law. Currently, the Hamas government punishes all men who are convicted of having engaged in homosexual acts with up to 10 years in prison."
"If you’re an LGBTQ+ parent, you should worry about Hamas gunning down your kids. Did that get your attention? Sounds outrageous, doesn’t it? Guess what? Hamas feels the same way about LGBTQ+ people and their families as they do about Israelis. Let me make this crystal clear: If an LGBTQ+ family moved into Gaza, Hamas would kill them."
Yes, I've just had a look (gulps). It is difficult to obtain useful info, not in the sense of unbiased, but in the sense of big-picture tersely written. These things tend to expand dramatically. But I don't know where else to go.
Hamas need to be destroyed, like the Nazis and others of their ilk before them.
@BartholomewRoberts continued: "But I got a word of warning for all you would-be warriors. When you join my command, you take on a debit. A debit you owe me personally. Each and every PBer under my command owes me one hundred Hamas scalps. And I want my scalps. And all y'all will git me one hundred Hamas scalps, taken from the heads of one hundred dead Hamas terrorists. Or you will die tryin'!"
Wikipedia: " Since 2007, the Gaza Strip has been ruled by Hamas, and sexual activity between men is illegal due to Hamas' enforcement of Islamic law. Currently, the Hamas government punishes all men who are convicted of having engaged in homosexual acts with up to 10 years in prison."
"If you’re an LGBTQ+ parent, you should worry about Hamas gunning down your kids. Did that get your attention? Sounds outrageous, doesn’t it? Guess what? Hamas feels the same way about LGBTQ+ people and their families as they do about Israelis. Let me make this crystal clear: If an LGBTQ+ family moved into Gaza, Hamas would kill them."
Philadelphia Gay News
IIRC criticising Hamas policy towards non-traditional sexuality is punching down. Israel is anti-gay despite specific protections in law etc because they are The Oppressors - so it’s fake pro-gay.
Hamas need to be destroyed, like the Nazis and others of their ilk before them.
@BartholomewRoberts continued: "But I got a word of warning for all you would-be warriors. When you join my command, you take on a debit. A debit you owe me personally. Each and every PBer under my command owes me one hundred Hamas scalps. And I want my scalps. And all y'all will git me one hundred Hamas scalps, taken from the heads of one hundred dead Hamas terrorists. Or you will die tryin'!"
“Right, right. Someone said "alien", he thought they said illegal alien and signed up!”
On our last day of our trip to the NE, we saw the pro-Palestine protest by the Earl Grey monument as we left the Grainger Market. A few mounted police on standby, but no trouble at that time. This morning, went to the Stephenson Museum, but a little disappointing in the number of locos on display, especially as it was a "contingency" due to the bus company that served the Tanfield Railway (just south of Newcastle) being on strike. Any way, back in Ilford now.
This personal story about Jaime Herrera Beutler (former congresswoman and current candidate for Washington state commissioner for public lands) may impress Dr. Foxy, among others: "In May 2013, Herrera Beutler announced that she and her husband were expecting their first child. In June 2013, she announced that her unborn child had been diagnosed with Potter's Syndrome, an often fatal condition in which abnormally low amniotic fluid caused by impaired kidney function inhibits normal lung development. A stranger who read the news suggested that she try an experimental treatment: saline injections into her uterus that would enable the baby to develop without kidneys. She said she tried several hospitals, and told CNN that "most wouldn't even return her calls". Finally, a doctor at Johns Hopkins agreed to try this treatment. The results were instantaneous. For four weeks, she drove every morning from the District of Columbia to Baltimore for injections.[87." (Links omitted.)
The baby, Abigail survived, though she was born without kidneys. (Later, her fatther donated one of his to her.) The couple has since had two more children.
In this area, the big news is that the dogs beat the ducks. Translation: The University of Washington Huskies beat the University of Oregon Ducks. It was a pretty exciting game, decided in the last seconds, when Oregon missed a field goal, which would have tied the game and sent it into overtime.
(The quarterbacks for the two teams, both very good, have interesting names:
UW Michael Penix, Jr. (His last name is pronounced with a short "e".) UO: Bo Nix
In this area, the big news is that the dogs beat the ducks. Translation: The University of Washington Huskies beat the University of Oregon Ducks. It was a pretty exciting game, decided in the last seconds, when Oregon missed a field goal, which would have tied the game and sent it into overtime.
(The quarterbacks for the two teams, both very good, have interesting names:
UW Michael Penix, Jr. (His last name is pronounced with a short "e".) UO: Bo Nix
Really, I am not making that up.)
I still don't understand the rules of American football.
I continue to find it very hard to find a balance in my views on the Israel/Palestine conflict, beyond 100% condemnation of the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas, and an underlying solidarity with civilians on all sides, but particularly Gazans as their lives are torn apart once more.
It feels like this conflict is the very definition of one with no easy answers (the latest Moral Maze is good at navigating this, incidentally). And so when, with apologies for naming names @boulay@BartholomewRoberts@RochdalePioneers and others seem to refusing any complexity whilst happily eliding the cause of Hamas with Palestinian solidarity more generally, and apportioning collective responsibility on a bunch of poor civilians, I find my sympathies swinging away from Israel quite dramatically.
I'm sure this is not fair - Israelis are not responsible for the brainlessness of anonymous posters on the internet. But just as those who are cheerleading a blank cheque for Israel's response seem to lump together anyone who has any qualms about all this as a raging anti-semite, I am finding it very hard not to be suspicious that the outrage of some is being manufactured in order to provide cover for an Israeli response that, in terms of pure human suffering, will vastly outweigh the atrocities that Hamas have perpetrated in the past week or so.
You named three posters including me who consistently disagree on political matters for various reasons from various standpoints, social situations, backgrounds and aims. It shows the weakness in your mealy mouthed attempt to try and state some moral equivalence between what has happened in Gaza pre last Saturday and post. We are not a cabal giving a blank cheque to Israel and you can dress up your views however you want but you are a wet useful idiot for murderous terrorists who killed innocent civilians out of the blue in the most horrific ways. Fuck your pathetic moral posturing.
I thnk you are making my point for me.
I’m really not. I’m sure you think that you are evaluating things in a “moral maze” way and showing great insight and intellectual breadth but sometimes it’s just very fucking simple - there are bad guys and good guys. Hamas are the bad guys as you clearly failing to get. Israel were being bad but nothing compared to Hamas. Don’t overthink it, it’s not a uni philosophy class. It’s dead babies and now dead Palestinians based directly on what Hamas did last weekend.
And what do you say to the relatives of the slaughtered Israelis whose views I posted earlier today, which were not dissimilar to those of maxh ? "Fuck your pathetic moral posturing ?"
It may be the worst sort of Thought For The Day mithering, but this sort of conflict only stops when someone, preferably someones on each side, decide not to take the retribution they are entitled to. And, as @Nigelb's link showed, there are some with the strength to say that, even after what they've suffered.
The current leadership of Hamas should absolutely be removed from circulation and ideally held accountable for the evil they have done. But I'd settle for shot in the head when they're not expecting it. But the practicalities are that that is likely to happen at horrible collateral cost to relatively innocent lives. And killing the leadership doesn't kill the idea- if anything, it strengthens it for the next generation.
That is why it ain't simple.
Even if every Hamas fighter was dead, there would be another similar organisation within a year, recruiting from the million refugees with a burning desire for revenge.
Unless the Israelis kill every Palestinian, this is just the beginning of another cycle.
And yet the Nazis were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
And yet the Tamil Tigers were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
Hamas need to be destroyed, like the Nazis and others of their ilk before them. From the ashes of that tragedy, hopefully something better can emerge.
Wipe out the untermensch.
What are you wittering on about?
The Germans were defeated and they surrendered, the victorious Allies didn't wipe out anyone. It was the Germans, like Hamas, who want to engage in genocide.
The Tamils were defeated and they surrendered, the Sri Lankans didn't wipe out anyone.
Sometimes in war there's a victor and a loser. When the loser accepts defeat, the world can move on. That is what needs to happen here, a clear and unambiguous victory for Israel over Hamas and for the Palestinians to accept that Hamas was defeated and to move on to other means rather than Hamas.
Hamas aren't going to surrender, you naive fool.
The kind of people who behead children and use civilians as human shields aren't interested in a peace process.
If Israel commits to the total elimination of Hamas, that means a comprehensive annexation of the Gaza strip and displacement or death of the millions who live there. We can argue about whether that is right/wrong - but first, whether that is even possible?
Yes, they're not interested in a peace process, which is why they need to be destroyed and killed until they do surrender. Even if it takes years of fighting.
The Nazis surrendered in the end, why can't Hamas?
What's naive and foolish is to suggest that there's an alternative to war here. They're not interested in a peace process, you know that, I know that, so that only leaves conflict as the resolution however depressing that may be.
If you're serious about stopping Hamas, you need to go after their enablers, particularly Iran. Targeted airstrikes inside Gaza also make sense to knock out the immediate threat.
A ground invasion? Ineffective, performative vengeance. It's exactly what Iran wants you to do - further radicalise the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank, weaken Western resolve as civilian casualties mount, weaken the IDF, turn the rest of the Muslim world against you.
In some respects I'm more hawkish than you - I think Netanyahu should've worked harder to pin this on Iran.
Perhaps a few more cycle lanes in Gaza city and a few LTNs are what they need ?
The Tories in Mid Beds looks like free money to me. The Liberals (and Labour) need to learn a lesson from this. But probably won’t.
I’ve been banging on about this for weeks.
Why should they ? Labour and the Lib Dems aren’t best buddies who sit around the campfire holding hands and singing songs. They are political opponents and this is a seat labour should go for. Why should they take a step back for the Lib Dems and to pander to progressive alliance crackpots on social media and in the guardian opinion columns.
I continue to find it very hard to find a balance in my views on the Israel/Palestine conflict, beyond 100% condemnation of the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas, and an underlying solidarity with civilians on all sides, but particularly Gazans as their lives are torn apart once more.
It feels like this conflict is the very definition of one with no easy answers (the latest Moral Maze is good at navigating this, incidentally). And so when, with apologies for naming names @boulay@BartholomewRoberts@RochdalePioneers and others seem to refusing any complexity whilst happily eliding the cause of Hamas with Palestinian solidarity more generally, and apportioning collective responsibility on a bunch of poor civilians, I find my sympathies swinging away from Israel quite dramatically.
I'm sure this is not fair - Israelis are not responsible for the brainlessness of anonymous posters on the internet. But just as those who are cheerleading a blank cheque for Israel's response seem to lump together anyone who has any qualms about all this as a raging anti-semite, I am finding it very hard not to be suspicious that the outrage of some is being manufactured in order to provide cover for an Israeli response that, in terms of pure human suffering, will vastly outweigh the atrocities that Hamas have perpetrated in the past week or so.
You named three posters including me who consistently disagree on political matters for various reasons from various standpoints, social situations, backgrounds and aims. It shows the weakness in your mealy mouthed attempt to try and state some moral equivalence between what has happened in Gaza pre last Saturday and post. We are not a cabal giving a blank cheque to Israel and you can dress up your views however you want but you are a wet useful idiot for murderous terrorists who killed innocent civilians out of the blue in the most horrific ways. Fuck your pathetic moral posturing.
I thnk you are making my point for me.
I’m really not. I’m sure you think that you are evaluating things in a “moral maze” way and showing great insight and intellectual breadth but sometimes it’s just very fucking simple - there are bad guys and good guys. Hamas are the bad guys as you clearly failing to get. Israel were being bad but nothing compared to Hamas. Don’t overthink it, it’s not a uni philosophy class. It’s dead babies and now dead Palestinians based directly on what Hamas did last weekend.
And what do you say to the relatives of the slaughtered Israelis whose views I posted earlier today, which were not dissimilar to those of maxh ? "Fuck your pathetic moral posturing ?"
It may be the worst sort of Thought For The Day mithering, but this sort of conflict only stops when someone, preferably someones on each side, decide not to take the retribution they are entitled to. And, as @Nigelb's link showed, there are some with the strength to say that, even after what they've suffered.
The current leadership of Hamas should absolutely be removed from circulation and ideally held accountable for the evil they have done. But I'd settle for shot in the head when they're not expecting it. But the practicalities are that that is likely to happen at horrible collateral cost to relatively innocent lives. And killing the leadership doesn't kill the idea- if anything, it strengthens it for the next generation.
That is why it ain't simple.
Even if every Hamas fighter was dead, there would be another similar organisation within a year, recruiting from the million refugees with a burning desire for revenge.
Unless the Israelis kill every Palestinian, this is just the beginning of another cycle.
And yet the Nazis were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
And yet the Tamil Tigers were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
Hamas need to be destroyed, like the Nazis and others of their ilk before them. From the ashes of that tragedy, hopefully something better can emerge.
Wipe out the untermensch.
What are you wittering on about?
The Germans were defeated and they surrendered, the victorious Allies didn't wipe out anyone. It was the Germans, like Hamas, who want to engage in genocide.
The Tamils were defeated and they surrendered, the Sri Lankans didn't wipe out anyone.
Sometimes in war there's a victor and a loser. When the loser accepts defeat, the world can move on. That is what needs to happen here, a clear and unambiguous victory for Israel over Hamas and for the Palestinians to accept that Hamas was defeated and to move on to other means rather than Hamas.
Hamas aren't going to surrender, you naive fool.
The kind of people who behead children and use civilians as human shields aren't interested in a peace process.
If Israel commits to the total elimination of Hamas, that means a comprehensive annexation of the Gaza strip and displacement or death of the millions who live there. We can argue about whether that is right/wrong - but first, whether that is even possible?
Yes, they're not interested in a peace process, which is why they need to be destroyed and killed until they do surrender. Even if it takes years of fighting.
The Nazis surrendered in the end, why can't Hamas?
What's naive and foolish is to suggest that there's an alternative to war here. They're not interested in a peace process, you know that, I know that, so that only leaves conflict as the resolution however depressing that may be.
If you're serious about stopping Hamas, you need to go after their enablers, particularly Iran. Targeted airstrikes inside Gaza also make sense to knock out the immediate threat.
A ground invasion? Ineffective, performative vengeance. It's exactly what Iran wants you to do - further radicalise the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank, weaken Western resolve as civilian casualties mount, weaken the IDF, turn the rest of the Muslim world against you.
In some respects I'm more hawkish than you - I think Netanyahu should've worked harder to pin this on Iran.
Perhaps a few more cycle lanes in Gaza city and a few LTNs are what they need ?
The Camp David accords suggested a High Speed rail link between Gaza and the West Bank, IIRC. I don't think the UK government has as many excuses as the Israeli one....
I continue to find it very hard to find a balance in my views on the Israel/Palestine conflict, beyond 100% condemnation of the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas, and an underlying solidarity with civilians on all sides, but particularly Gazans as their lives are torn apart once more.
It feels like this conflict is the very definition of one with no easy answers (the latest Moral Maze is good at navigating this, incidentally). And so when, with apologies for naming names @boulay@BartholomewRoberts@RochdalePioneers and others seem to refusing any complexity whilst happily eliding the cause of Hamas with Palestinian solidarity more generally, and apportioning collective responsibility on a bunch of poor civilians, I find my sympathies swinging away from Israel quite dramatically.
I'm sure this is not fair - Israelis are not responsible for the brainlessness of anonymous posters on the internet. But just as those who are cheerleading a blank cheque for Israel's response seem to lump together anyone who has any qualms about all this as a raging anti-semite, I am finding it very hard not to be suspicious that the outrage of some is being manufactured in order to provide cover for an Israeli response that, in terms of pure human suffering, will vastly outweigh the atrocities that Hamas have perpetrated in the past week or so.
You named three posters including me who consistently disagree on political matters for various reasons from various standpoints, social situations, backgrounds and aims. It shows the weakness in your mealy mouthed attempt to try and state some moral equivalence between what has happened in Gaza pre last Saturday and post. We are not a cabal giving a blank cheque to Israel and you can dress up your views however you want but you are a wet useful idiot for murderous terrorists who killed innocent civilians out of the blue in the most horrific ways. Fuck your pathetic moral posturing.
I thnk you are making my point for me.
I’m really not. I’m sure you think that you are evaluating things in a “moral maze” way and showing great insight and intellectual breadth but sometimes it’s just very fucking simple - there are bad guys and good guys. Hamas are the bad guys as you clearly failing to get. Israel were being bad but nothing compared to Hamas. Don’t overthink it, it’s not a uni philosophy class. It’s dead babies and now dead Palestinians based directly on what Hamas did last weekend.
And what do you say to the relatives of the slaughtered Israelis whose views I posted earlier today, which were not dissimilar to those of maxh ? "Fuck your pathetic moral posturing ?"
It may be the worst sort of Thought For The Day mithering, but this sort of conflict only stops when someone, preferably someones on each side, decide not to take the retribution they are entitled to. And, as @Nigelb's link showed, there are some with the strength to say that, even after what they've suffered.
The current leadership of Hamas should absolutely be removed from circulation and ideally held accountable for the evil they have done. But I'd settle for shot in the head when they're not expecting it. But the practicalities are that that is likely to happen at horrible collateral cost to relatively innocent lives. And killing the leadership doesn't kill the idea- if anything, it strengthens it for the next generation.
That is why it ain't simple.
Even if every Hamas fighter was dead, there would be another similar organisation within a year, recruiting from the million refugees with a burning desire for revenge.
Unless the Israelis kill every Palestinian, this is just the beginning of another cycle.
And yet the Nazis were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
And yet the Tamil Tigers were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
Hamas need to be destroyed, like the Nazis and others of their ilk before them. From the ashes of that tragedy, hopefully something better can emerge.
Wipe out the untermensch.
What are you wittering on about?
The Germans were defeated and they surrendered, the victorious Allies didn't wipe out anyone. It was the Germans, like Hamas, who want to engage in genocide.
The Tamils were defeated and they surrendered, the Sri Lankans didn't wipe out anyone.
Sometimes in war there's a victor and a loser. When the loser accepts defeat, the world can move on. That is what needs to happen here, a clear and unambiguous victory for Israel over Hamas and for the Palestinians to accept that Hamas was defeated and to move on to other means rather than Hamas.
Hamas aren't going to surrender, you naive fool.
The kind of people who behead children and use civilians as human shields aren't interested in a peace process.
If Israel commits to the total elimination of Hamas, that means a comprehensive annexation of the Gaza strip and displacement or death of the millions who live there. We can argue about whether that is right/wrong - but first, whether that is even possible?
Yes, they're not interested in a peace process, which is why they need to be destroyed and killed until they do surrender. Even if it takes years of fighting.
The Nazis surrendered in the end, why can't Hamas?
What's naive and foolish is to suggest that there's an alternative to war here. They're not interested in a peace process, you know that, I know that, so that only leaves conflict as the resolution however depressing that may be.
If you're serious about stopping Hamas, you need to go after their enablers, particularly Iran. Targeted airstrikes inside Gaza also make sense to knock out the immediate threat.
A ground invasion? Ineffective, performative vengeance. It's exactly what Iran wants you to do - further radicalise the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank, weaken Western resolve as civilian casualties mount, weaken the IDF, turn the rest of the Muslim world against you.
In some respects I'm more hawkish than you - I think Netanyahu should've worked harder to pin this on Iran.
According to the BBC, Hamas have over 500km of tunnels under Gaza - and the israelis will not know where they all are.
I continue to find it very hard to find a balance in my views on the Israel/Palestine conflict, beyond 100% condemnation of the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas, and an underlying solidarity with civilians on all sides, but particularly Gazans as their lives are torn apart once more.
It feels like this conflict is the very definition of one with no easy answers (the latest Moral Maze is good at navigating this, incidentally). And so when, with apologies for naming names @boulay@BartholomewRoberts@RochdalePioneers and others seem to refusing any complexity whilst happily eliding the cause of Hamas with Palestinian solidarity more generally, and apportioning collective responsibility on a bunch of poor civilians, I find my sympathies swinging away from Israel quite dramatically.
I'm sure this is not fair - Israelis are not responsible for the brainlessness of anonymous posters on the internet. But just as those who are cheerleading a blank cheque for Israel's response seem to lump together anyone who has any qualms about all this as a raging anti-semite, I am finding it very hard not to be suspicious that the outrage of some is being manufactured in order to provide cover for an Israeli response that, in terms of pure human suffering, will vastly outweigh the atrocities that Hamas have perpetrated in the past week or so.
You named three posters including me who consistently disagree on political matters for various reasons from various standpoints, social situations, backgrounds and aims. It shows the weakness in your mealy mouthed attempt to try and state some moral equivalence between what has happened in Gaza pre last Saturday and post. We are not a cabal giving a blank cheque to Israel and you can dress up your views however you want but you are a wet useful idiot for murderous terrorists who killed innocent civilians out of the blue in the most horrific ways. Fuck your pathetic moral posturing.
I thnk you are making my point for me.
I’m really not. I’m sure you think that you are evaluating things in a “moral maze” way and showing great insight and intellectual breadth but sometimes it’s just very fucking simple - there are bad guys and good guys. Hamas are the bad guys as you clearly failing to get. Israel were being bad but nothing compared to Hamas. Don’t overthink it, it’s not a uni philosophy class. It’s dead babies and now dead Palestinians based directly on what Hamas did last weekend.
And what do you say to the relatives of the slaughtered Israelis whose views I posted earlier today, which were not dissimilar to those of maxh ? "Fuck your pathetic moral posturing ?"
It may be the worst sort of Thought For The Day mithering, but this sort of conflict only stops when someone, preferably someones on each side, decide not to take the retribution they are entitled to. And, as @Nigelb's link showed, there are some with the strength to say that, even after what they've suffered.
The current leadership of Hamas should absolutely be removed from circulation and ideally held accountable for the evil they have done. But I'd settle for shot in the head when they're not expecting it. But the practicalities are that that is likely to happen at horrible collateral cost to relatively innocent lives. And killing the leadership doesn't kill the idea- if anything, it strengthens it for the next generation.
That is why it ain't simple.
Even if every Hamas fighter was dead, there would be another similar organisation within a year, recruiting from the million refugees with a burning desire for revenge.
Unless the Israelis kill every Palestinian, this is just the beginning of another cycle.
And yet the Nazis were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
And yet the Tamil Tigers were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
Hamas need to be destroyed, like the Nazis and others of their ilk before them. From the ashes of that tragedy, hopefully something better can emerge.
Wipe out the untermensch.
What are you wittering on about?
The Germans were defeated and they surrendered, the victorious Allies didn't wipe out anyone. It was the Germans, like Hamas, who want to engage in genocide.
The Tamils were defeated and they surrendered, the Sri Lankans didn't wipe out anyone.
Sometimes in war there's a victor and a loser. When the loser accepts defeat, the world can move on. That is what needs to happen here, a clear and unambiguous victory for Israel over Hamas and for the Palestinians to accept that Hamas was defeated and to move on to other means rather than Hamas.
Hamas aren't going to surrender, you naive fool.
The kind of people who behead children and use civilians as human shields aren't interested in a peace process.
If Israel commits to the total elimination of Hamas, that means a comprehensive annexation of the Gaza strip and displacement or death of the millions who live there. We can argue about whether that is right/wrong - but first, whether that is even possible?
Yes, they're not interested in a peace process, which is why they need to be destroyed and killed until they do surrender. Even if it takes years of fighting.
The Nazis surrendered in the end, why can't Hamas?
What's naive and foolish is to suggest that there's an alternative to war here. They're not interested in a peace process, you know that, I know that, so that only leaves conflict as the resolution however depressing that may be.
If you're serious about stopping Hamas, you need to go after their enablers, particularly Iran. Targeted airstrikes inside Gaza also make sense to knock out the immediate threat.
A ground invasion? Ineffective, performative vengeance. It's exactly what Iran wants you to do - further radicalise the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank, weaken Western resolve as civilian casualties mount, weaken the IDF, turn the rest of the Muslim world against you.
In some respects I'm more hawkish than you - I think Netanyahu should've worked harder to pin this on Iran.
Perhaps a few more cycle lanes in Gaza city and a few LTNs are what they need ?
The Camp David accords suggested a High Speed rail link between Gaza and the West Bank, IIRC. I don't think the UK government has as many excuses as the Israeli one....
I continue to find it very hard to find a balance in my views on the Israel/Palestine conflict, beyond 100% condemnation of the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas, and an underlying solidarity with civilians on all sides, but particularly Gazans as their lives are torn apart once more.
It feels like this conflict is the very definition of one with no easy answers (the latest Moral Maze is good at navigating this, incidentally). And so when, with apologies for naming names @boulay@BartholomewRoberts@RochdalePioneers and others seem to refusing any complexity whilst happily eliding the cause of Hamas with Palestinian solidarity more generally, and apportioning collective responsibility on a bunch of poor civilians, I find my sympathies swinging away from Israel quite dramatically.
I'm sure this is not fair - Israelis are not responsible for the brainlessness of anonymous posters on the internet. But just as those who are cheerleading a blank cheque for Israel's response seem to lump together anyone who has any qualms about all this as a raging anti-semite, I am finding it very hard not to be suspicious that the outrage of some is being manufactured in order to provide cover for an Israeli response that, in terms of pure human suffering, will vastly outweigh the atrocities that Hamas have perpetrated in the past week or so.
You named three posters including me who consistently disagree on political matters for various reasons from various standpoints, social situations, backgrounds and aims. It shows the weakness in your mealy mouthed attempt to try and state some moral equivalence between what has happened in Gaza pre last Saturday and post. We are not a cabal giving a blank cheque to Israel and you can dress up your views however you want but you are a wet useful idiot for murderous terrorists who killed innocent civilians out of the blue in the most horrific ways. Fuck your pathetic moral posturing.
I thnk you are making my point for me.
I’m really not. I’m sure you think that you are evaluating things in a “moral maze” way and showing great insight and intellectual breadth but sometimes it’s just very fucking simple - there are bad guys and good guys. Hamas are the bad guys as you clearly failing to get. Israel were being bad but nothing compared to Hamas. Don’t overthink it, it’s not a uni philosophy class. It’s dead babies and now dead Palestinians based directly on what Hamas did last weekend.
And what do you say to the relatives of the slaughtered Israelis whose views I posted earlier today, which were not dissimilar to those of maxh ? "Fuck your pathetic moral posturing ?"
It may be the worst sort of Thought For The Day mithering, but this sort of conflict only stops when someone, preferably someones on each side, decide not to take the retribution they are entitled to. And, as @Nigelb's link showed, there are some with the strength to say that, even after what they've suffered.
The current leadership of Hamas should absolutely be removed from circulation and ideally held accountable for the evil they have done. But I'd settle for shot in the head when they're not expecting it. But the practicalities are that that is likely to happen at horrible collateral cost to relatively innocent lives. And killing the leadership doesn't kill the idea- if anything, it strengthens it for the next generation.
That is why it ain't simple.
Even if every Hamas fighter was dead, there would be another similar organisation within a year, recruiting from the million refugees with a burning desire for revenge.
Unless the Israelis kill every Palestinian, this is just the beginning of another cycle.
And yet the Nazis were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
And yet the Tamil Tigers were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
Hamas need to be destroyed, like the Nazis and others of their ilk before them. From the ashes of that tragedy, hopefully something better can emerge.
Wipe out the untermensch.
What are you wittering on about?
The Germans were defeated and they surrendered, the victorious Allies didn't wipe out anyone. It was the Germans, like Hamas, who want to engage in genocide.
The Tamils were defeated and they surrendered, the Sri Lankans didn't wipe out anyone.
Sometimes in war there's a victor and a loser. When the loser accepts defeat, the world can move on. That is what needs to happen here, a clear and unambiguous victory for Israel over Hamas and for the Palestinians to accept that Hamas was defeated and to move on to other means rather than Hamas.
Hamas aren't going to surrender, you naive fool.
The kind of people who behead children and use civilians as human shields aren't interested in a peace process.
If Israel commits to the total elimination of Hamas, that means a comprehensive annexation of the Gaza strip and displacement or death of the millions who live there. We can argue about whether that is right/wrong - but first, whether that is even possible?
Yes, they're not interested in a peace process, which is why they need to be destroyed and killed until they do surrender. Even if it takes years of fighting.
The Nazis surrendered in the end, why can't Hamas?
What's naive and foolish is to suggest that there's an alternative to war here. They're not interested in a peace process, you know that, I know that, so that only leaves conflict as the resolution however depressing that may be.
If you're serious about stopping Hamas, you need to go after their enablers, particularly Iran. Targeted airstrikes inside Gaza also make sense to knock out the immediate threat.
A ground invasion? Ineffective, performative vengeance. It's exactly what Iran wants you to do - further radicalise the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank, weaken Western resolve as civilian casualties mount, weaken the IDF, turn the rest of the Muslim world against you.
In some respects I'm more hawkish than you - I think Netanyahu should've worked harder to pin this on Iran.
Perhaps a few more cycle lanes in Gaza city and a few LTNs are what they need ?
The Camp David accords suggested a High Speed rail link between Gaza and the West Bank, IIRC. I don't think the UK government has as many excuses as the Israeli one....
😂😂
But no cycle,Lane provision in Gaza city ?
Not according to Google maps.
I just checked the Strava heat map and there appear to be some depressed Dura Ace types just doing laps of the central highway. The contrast with Israel is stark.
I continue to find it very hard to find a balance in my views on the Israel/Palestine conflict, beyond 100% condemnation of the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas, and an underlying solidarity with civilians on all sides, but particularly Gazans as their lives are torn apart once more.
It feels like this conflict is the very definition of one with no easy answers (the latest Moral Maze is good at navigating this, incidentally). And so when, with apologies for naming names @boulay@BartholomewRoberts@RochdalePioneers and others seem to refusing any complexity whilst happily eliding the cause of Hamas with Palestinian solidarity more generally, and apportioning collective responsibility on a bunch of poor civilians, I find my sympathies swinging away from Israel quite dramatically.
I'm sure this is not fair - Israelis are not responsible for the brainlessness of anonymous posters on the internet. But just as those who are cheerleading a blank cheque for Israel's response seem to lump together anyone who has any qualms about all this as a raging anti-semite, I am finding it very hard not to be suspicious that the outrage of some is being manufactured in order to provide cover for an Israeli response that, in terms of pure human suffering, will vastly outweigh the atrocities that Hamas have perpetrated in the past week or so.
You named three posters including me who consistently disagree on political matters for various reasons from various standpoints, social situations, backgrounds and aims. It shows the weakness in your mealy mouthed attempt to try and state some moral equivalence between what has happened in Gaza pre last Saturday and post. We are not a cabal giving a blank cheque to Israel and you can dress up your views however you want but you are a wet useful idiot for murderous terrorists who killed innocent civilians out of the blue in the most horrific ways. Fuck your pathetic moral posturing.
I thnk you are making my point for me.
I’m really not. I’m sure you think that you are evaluating things in a “moral maze” way and showing great insight and intellectual breadth but sometimes it’s just very fucking simple - there are bad guys and good guys. Hamas are the bad guys as you clearly failing to get. Israel were being bad but nothing compared to Hamas. Don’t overthink it, it’s not a uni philosophy class. It’s dead babies and now dead Palestinians based directly on what Hamas did last weekend.
And what do you say to the relatives of the slaughtered Israelis whose views I posted earlier today, which were not dissimilar to those of maxh ? "Fuck your pathetic moral posturing ?"
It may be the worst sort of Thought For The Day mithering, but this sort of conflict only stops when someone, preferably someones on each side, decide not to take the retribution they are entitled to. And, as @Nigelb's link showed, there are some with the strength to say that, even after what they've suffered.
The current leadership of Hamas should absolutely be removed from circulation and ideally held accountable for the evil they have done. But I'd settle for shot in the head when they're not expecting it. But the practicalities are that that is likely to happen at horrible collateral cost to relatively innocent lives. And killing the leadership doesn't kill the idea- if anything, it strengthens it for the next generation.
That is why it ain't simple.
Even if every Hamas fighter was dead, there would be another similar organisation within a year, recruiting from the million refugees with a burning desire for revenge.
Unless the Israelis kill every Palestinian, this is just the beginning of another cycle.
And yet the Nazis were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
And yet the Tamil Tigers were destroyed and a new cycle didn't begin. Why was that?
Hamas need to be destroyed, like the Nazis and others of their ilk before them. From the ashes of that tragedy, hopefully something better can emerge.
Wipe out the untermensch.
What are you wittering on about?
The Germans were defeated and they surrendered, the victorious Allies didn't wipe out anyone. It was the Germans, like Hamas, who want to engage in genocide.
The Tamils were defeated and they surrendered, the Sri Lankans didn't wipe out anyone.
Sometimes in war there's a victor and a loser. When the loser accepts defeat, the world can move on. That is what needs to happen here, a clear and unambiguous victory for Israel over Hamas and for the Palestinians to accept that Hamas was defeated and to move on to other means rather than Hamas.
Hamas aren't going to surrender, you naive fool.
The kind of people who behead children and use civilians as human shields aren't interested in a peace process.
If Israel commits to the total elimination of Hamas, that means a comprehensive annexation of the Gaza strip and displacement or death of the millions who live there. We can argue about whether that is right/wrong - but first, whether that is even possible?
Yes, they're not interested in a peace process, which is why they need to be destroyed and killed until they do surrender. Even if it takes years of fighting.
The Nazis surrendered in the end, why can't Hamas?
What's naive and foolish is to suggest that there's an alternative to war here. They're not interested in a peace process, you know that, I know that, so that only leaves conflict as the resolution however depressing that may be.
If you're serious about stopping Hamas, you need to go after their enablers, particularly Iran. Targeted airstrikes inside Gaza also make sense to knock out the immediate threat.
A ground invasion? Ineffective, performative vengeance. It's exactly what Iran wants you to do - further radicalise the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank, weaken Western resolve as civilian casualties mount, weaken the IDF, turn the rest of the Muslim world against you.
In some respects I'm more hawkish than you - I think Netanyahu should've worked harder to pin this on Iran.
Perhaps a few more cycle lanes in Gaza city and a few LTNs are what they need ?
The Camp David accords suggested a High Speed rail link between Gaza and the West Bank, IIRC. I don't think the UK government has as many excuses as the Israeli one....
😂😂
But no cycle,Lane provision in Gaza city ?
Not according to Google maps.
I just checked the Strava heat map and there appear to be some depressed Dura Ace types just doing laps of the central highway. The contrast with Israel is stark.
Which explains your fanatical pro Israeli stance. 👍
Comments
https://twitter.com/grantfeller/status/1713259290356592979/photo/2
Wikipedia: " Since 2007, the Gaza Strip has been ruled by Hamas, and sexual activity between men is illegal due to Hamas' enforcement of Islamic law. Currently, the Hamas government punishes all men who are convicted of having engaged in homosexual acts with up to 10 years in prison."
"If you’re an LGBTQ+ parent, you should worry about Hamas gunning down your kids. Did that get your attention? Sounds outrageous, doesn’t it? Guess what? Hamas feels the same way about LGBTQ+ people and their families as they do about Israelis. Let me make this crystal clear: If an LGBTQ+ family moved into Gaza, Hamas would kill them."
Philadelphia Gay News
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Polish_referendum
"But I got a word of warning for all you would-be warriors. When you join my command, you take on a debit. A debit you owe me personally. Each and every PBer under my command owes me one hundred Hamas scalps. And I want my scalps. And all y'all will git me one hundred Hamas scalps, taken from the heads of one hundred dead Hamas terrorists. Or you will die tryin'!"
"In May 2013, Herrera Beutler announced that she and her husband were expecting their first child. In June 2013, she announced that her unborn child had been diagnosed with Potter's Syndrome, an often fatal condition in which abnormally low amniotic fluid caused by impaired kidney function inhibits normal lung development. A stranger who read the news suggested that she try an experimental treatment: saline injections into her uterus that would enable the baby to develop without kidneys. She said she tried several hospitals, and told CNN that "most wouldn't even return her calls". Finally, a doctor at Johns Hopkins agreed to try this treatment. The results were instantaneous. For four weeks, she drove every morning from the District of Columbia to Baltimore for injections.[87."
(Links omitted.)
The baby, Abigail survived, though she was born without kidneys. (Later, her fatther donated one of his to her.) The couple has since had two more children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Herrera_Beutler
(The quarterbacks for the two teams, both very good, have interesting names:
UW Michael Penix, Jr. (His last name is pronounced with a short "e".)
UO: Bo Nix
Really, I am not making that up.)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67097124
I'm unsure how you get any Hamas seniors who are hiding out in those tunnels *without* either a ground invasion or levelling the entre region.
But no cycle,Lane provision in Gaza city ?
I just checked the Strava heat map and there appear to be some depressed Dura Ace types just doing laps of the central highway. The contrast with Israel is stark.