This morning: "There will be no blue on blue violence" This afternoon: Shades of Gettysburg about the place. I'll let you decide who is Meade and who is Lee.
I think the real question is who is Reynolds and who is Armistead.
As one who has no less than THREE forebearers who fought for the Union on that fabled battlefield (plus one ancestral in-law on the other side) I protest MOST vociferously, this foul insult to the memory of the distinguished generals.
Much more apt comparison would be with the Missouri skirmish at start of Civil War, that Mark Twain chronicled as his first - and last - battle. Ill-advised, ludicrous, tragic. And sent Twain skidaddling westward!
That's a completely idiotic soundbite. One of the innovations is X-ray Tomography which is the basis of CT scanning. It's demonstrably false.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, Coherent Light Emission, transistors...
NMR is at least an American innovation, so not in that list of 180. Though as CHB points out, the NHS uses the web and it's absolutely number one on the list.
The absolute banter Twitter post would be a picture of him eating a Korma watching the debate with the caption "This curry is spicier than these takes".
So, this type of performance if repeated should presumably shore up Rishi's backers if they were wavering. If he's lucky some normal public liked him and that is something he can use to build on with members.
Truss just isn't very good at selling herself, that is clear. But is the ERG backing enough to go past Mordaunt regardless?
Tom - 7 (Pleasantly surprised) Kemi - 7 (I knew she's be good and didn't disappoint) Penny - 6 (Wobbled early on but got better) Rishi - 4 (The do nothing, tax dodging Prime Minister with millions in the bank) Liz - 1 (Absolutely woeful)
This morning: "There will be no blue on blue violence" This afternoon: Shades of Gettysburg about the place. I'll let you decide who is Meade and who is Lee.
I think the real question is who is Reynolds and who is Armistead.
As one who has no less than THREE forebearers who fought for the Union on that fabled battlefield (plus one ancestral in-law on the other side) I protest MOST vociferously, this foul insult to the memory of the distinguished generals.
Much more apt comparison would be with the Missouri skirmish at start of Civil War, that Mark Twain chronicled as his first - and last - battle. Ill-advised, ludicrous, tragic. And sent Twain skidaddling westward!
Well, they were both killed. One setting up the battle, and one in a futile attempt to win it.
Overall Sunak looks competent and wouldn’t scare people too much . Penny , great hair but really not a great hour and half for her . TT was just too sincere and I thought was going to burst into tears at times . Kemi did okay but I think is one for the future , Truss looked weird and was poor especially her drivel on taxes .
Truss is appalling, OMG I am actually feeling sympathy
Her campaign from the start has been a disaster...anybody would think she only got up on Monday and suddenly thought yeah why not lets give this leadership race a go.
If it was for LOTO facing some years in opposition, Badenoch or Penny would walk this, like the new David Cameron. Problem is, the flawed ones are experienced, the less flawed ones inexperienced. Chuck them straight in as PM into this world crisis? The outgoing PM has to share some of the blame for this, for his cabinet of lightweight cheerleaders, he had no mind at all to nurture and build talent.
That's a completely idiotic soundbite. One of the innovations is X-ray Tomography which is the basis of CT scanning. It's demonstrably false.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, Coherent Light Emission, transistors...
NMR is at least an American innovation, so not in that list of 180. Though as CHB points out, the NHS uses the web and it's absolutely number one on the list.
Ah, I assumed it was "general humanity" innovations rather than specific British ones.
The absolute banter Twitter post would be a picture of him eating a Korma watching the debate with the caption "This curry is spicier than these takes".
Yeah
Only fly in the ointment is he just scraped 5th= with truss this evening and would have been a clear 6th if he had actually been there
EXCELLENT final statement from Penny. She's still in the game
She should really go on her ordinariness in the next debate:
"I am not public school. I am not Oxford or Cambridge. I am not an ex banker. I am like YOU" - go for it, Penny
I thought all the final statements dire, but Sunak wins the debate because he was the only one to give a serious answer to the question about fuel bills, which is what people reasonably expect their government to have an answer to.
And I say that knowing Sunak completely screwed up the Budget earlier this year.
She's quite right. When did you last see a Watt governor on an NHS ward?
OTOH the underlying principle of cybernetic feedback is absolutely fundamental to many a bit of NHS kit. As are, for instance, the basic principles of electromagnetism, the atomic theory of chenistry, and the concept of the genetic message encapsulated in the DNA sequence. Not to mention the notion of the wotsit electronic thingy spread over the C6H5- hexagon, the germ theorh of disease, the development of modern ventilation and sanitation, and so on and so forth.
That's a completely idiotic soundbite. One of the innovations is X-ray Tomography which is the basis of CT scanning. It's demonstrably false.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, Coherent Light Emission, transistors...
NMR is at least an American innovation, so not in that list of 180. Though as CHB points out, the NHS uses the web and it's absolutely number one on the list.
NMR in medicine is called MRI so as not to frighten the patients and is British: Peter Mansfield, Nottingham. Admittedly the Americans were a close second.
That's a completely idiotic soundbite. One of the innovations is X-ray Tomography which is the basis of CT scanning. It's demonstrably false.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, Coherent Light Emission, transistors...
NMR is at least an American innovation, so not in that list of 180. Though as CHB points out, the NHS uses the web and it's absolutely number one on the list.
The absolute banter Twitter post would be a picture of him eating a Korma watching the debate with the caption "This curry is spicier than these takes".
Yeah
Only fly in the ointment is he just scraped 5th= with truss this evening and would have been a clear 6th if he had actually been there
True, but think back to Spring 2020. At that point, Starmer's hopes of being PM needed three things to happen;
Johnson had to implode Johnson's replacement had to be deeply mediocre The country in general, and the real economy in particular, had to melt like cheap icecream.
None of them really has much to do with him, but job being done.
Tom - 7 (Pleasantly surprised) Kemi - 7 (I knew she's be good and didn't disappoint) Penny - 6 (Wobbled early on but got better) Rishi - 4 (The do nothing, tax dodging Prime Minister with millions in the bank) Liz - 1 (Absolutely woeful)
We said yesterday that Liz is an useless public speaker.
I think we can all agree that Penny is no longer the candidate "Labour fears the most"
Sunak is the only one with even a scintilla of gravitas and credibility - and if he wins there’ll be permanent ERG revolt. If the Tories were insane enough to pick Truss, Labour would win a very healthy majority in 2024. They can’t be, can they?
She's quite right. When did you last see a Watt governor on an NHS ward?
OTOH the underlying principle of cybernetic feedback is absolutely fundamental to many a bit of NHS kit. As are, for instance, the basic principles of electromagnetism, the atomic theory of chenistry, and the concept of the genetic message encapsulated in the DNA sequence. Not to mention the notion of the wotsit electronic thingy spread over the C6H5- hexagon, the germ theorh of disease, the development of modern ventilation and sanitation, and so on and so forth.
Quite so. I genuinely haven't the faintest idea what point she is trying to make there. Not been a good day for her.
I think Mordaunt's problem is that she isn't political enough. She's treating it like a job interview and making herself completely bland.
Penny was a bit too discursive and often avoided the actual question. She might do better in a long interview. Do we know what formats will be used for the next debates?
None of the final statements are very good. Sunak’s poorest moment. Mordaunt and Truss somewhat better than their debate performances. Does this matter? Is it about getting a good 15 second clip for the news shows and social media?
It's important not to overreact to the debate.
The only clear conclusion I can draw from it is that it highlighted and reinforced all previous concerns of the candidates, but with Truss being particularly bad.
There are three of these debates. This is merely the first
Truss is toast but beyond that.... who knows. Rishi's polish shows here, he is is Winchester and Megabank and ex-COTE
But.... Which one will beat Starmer?
It is Mordaunt v Sunak, I reckon, and the Tory members will decide, not us
The Penny problem is that rather uniquely she has been called out on the stand for lying. And its on the dog whistle non-issue of chicks with dicks. She can try and talk around it, but they will keep coming back for it.
Is it unique? Leon has just said Kemi's tooth story is "a clear lie".
Tom - 7 (Pleasantly surprised) Kemi - 7 (I knew she's be good and didn't disappoint) Penny - 6 (Wobbled early on but got better) Rishi - 4 (The do nothing, tax dodging Prime Minister with millions in the bank) Liz - 1 (Absolutely woeful)
Instead of flouncing George Osborne should have played the long game, he'd be running rings around all of them and he'd probably give Kemi No. 11, he shouldn't have taken being sacked by May so personally.
posh tory boy has inability to handle adversity shock
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Blair actually had vision.
Can someone please tell me what Rishi’s vision is?
I wonder what he makes of this graph.
Blair had vision? What was it? I remember an enormous number of cliches - 'Britain forward not back, education, education, education, tough on crime tough on the causes of crime' - but I couldn't tell you what they meant.
Just as Thatcher's 'vision' was very often her making stuff up as she needed to, with varying degrees of success.
What they both were - for good or for ill - was decisive, and they had a willingness to listen to others if they knew their stuff and decide accordingly.
Does Sunak have that? If I'm honest I don't know. But what I can say is that apart possibly from Tugendhat and even more tenuously Badenoch the others are showing they don't have it.
That’s nonsense. There was a clear Blairism “Giddens/third way-ism/reducing child poverty/education reform/devolution” etc, just as there was clear Thatcherism “Hayek/monetarism/privatisation/labour deregulation/home owning democracy”
Devolution? Nonsense. Devolution was never part of Blairism. He inherited it, very reluctantly, from John Smith et al.
Blair would have sunk it if he could. He certainly tried.
Alistair Campbell take - ignoring the typical ending Labour boosting, fair assessment
RishiSunak edged it in terms of getting over the message he wanted to land. TomTugendhat had the best moments and best closing speech. KemiBadenoch out of her depth PennyMordaunt playing it safe but all too vague. trussliz unimaginable as PM. Good night for Keir_Starmer
There are three of these debates. This is merely the first
Truss is toast but beyond that.... who knows. Rishi's polish shows here, he is is Winchester and Megabank and ex-COTE
But.... Which one will beat Starmer?
It is Mordaunt v Sunak, I reckon, and the Tory members will decide, not us
The Penny problem is that rather uniquely she has been called out on the stand for lying. And its on the dog whistle non-issue of chicks with dicks. She can try and talk around it, but they will keep coming back for it.
Is it unique? Leon has just said Kemi's tooth story is "a clear lie".
We've called Badenoch out on this board.
Badenoch accused Mordaunt of lying *in the debate*
That's bloody rude, I never shared my thought last night in response to your photo of your shit distribution facility, that the dog agility and shotgun skeet disciplines could usefully be combined.
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Blair actually had vision.
Can someone please tell me what Rishi’s vision is?
I wonder what he makes of this graph.
Blair had vision? What was it? I remember an enormous number of cliches - 'Britain forward not back, education, education, education, tough on crime tough on the causes of crime' - but I couldn't tell you what they meant.
Just as Thatcher's 'vision' was very often her making stuff up as she needed to, with varying degrees of success.
What they both were - for good or for ill - was decisive, and they had a willingness to listen to others if they knew their stuff and decide accordingly.
Does Sunak have that? If I'm honest I don't know. But what I can say is that apart possibly from Tugendhat and even more tenuously Badenoch the others are showing they don't have it.
That’s nonsense. There was a clear Blairism “Giddens/third way-ism/reducing child poverty/education reform/devolution” etc, just as there was clear Thatcherism “Hayek/monetarism/privatisation/labour deregulation/home owning democracy”
Devolution? Nonsense. Devolution was never part of Blairism. He inherited it, very reluctantly, from John Smith et al.
Blair would have sunk it if he could. He certainly tried.
Especially with that malicious second taxation question in the 1997 referendum. He ust have pissed himself when he lost that.
I think we can all agree that Penny is no longer the candidate "Labour fears the most"
I am trying to be neutral - honestly - and I am not so sure. Mordaunt gained over the hour. She is new to this. Sunak was predictably smooth but no more, he has been COTE and he's Winchester/Oxford, he has the confidence and glisten, but that's it. Any ideas? Nope
Badenoch faded after a great start. She needs a lot of time to mature - she needs a big job in Cabinet. She's got a lot of potential. Truss was a calamity and Tugendhat was an irrelevant soldier talking about Tobruk, or whatever it was
I would still be wary of Mordaunt, if I were Labour. She's the one who could maintain much of the Red Wall and hold the Blue Wall. She is learning on the game. Also, she is withstanding intense nasty pressure from her opponents, but she still looks dignified
That's a completely idiotic soundbite. One of the innovations is X-ray Tomography which is the basis of CT scanning. It's demonstrably false.
Depends entirely how you define the 180 innovations. It’s certainly the case that the NHS and other healthcare systems are poor at adopting innovation.
Truss is appalling, OMG I am actually feeling sympathy
Her campaign from the start has been a disaster...anybody would think she only got up on Monday and suddenly thought yeah why not lets give this leadership race a go.
Though media was being cruel to Truss, reporting her difficulties in entering - and then leaving - her own campaign kickoff.
Based on tonight's PB commentary, am revising that opinion.
A question based on the ConHome hustings and the Channel 4 debate. Is Tommy Tugs aware that we have had a Conservative Government for the last 12 years?
That can'td be JRM. He'd insist on about 20 members of the lower orders to do the work, and an overseer to supervise, while he went off in his post-chaise to the House.
Penny Mordaunt - Er, what do people see in her? We can do lots of things, but no idea what any of them are. I thought she was awful.
Tom Tugendhat - There was something deeply strange about the way he spoke that I can't quite put my finger on. I had expected that I would agree with him most, but I didn't really.
Liz Truss - I'm amazed that she actually came out and said that she would borrow loads to pay for tax cuts. We're only 12 years on from, "I'm awfully sorry, but there's no money left," and one of the frontrunners to become the next leader of the Conservative Party is advocating a vast increase in the national debt. How did *that* happen?
Rishi Sunak - I don't trust him at all, and he's too slick by half, but - aside from my concerns over Ukraine, which weren't really touched in the debate - he gives the impression of being likely to do least damage to the country until the next election than the other frontrunners.
Kemi Badenoch - She was by far the standout performer. I felt that she was the most direct and most honest of the five. And she was most prepared to say that not everything was going to be good. I suspect that I wouldn't agree with the choices she would make about tradeoffs, but I respect the fact that she is honest about tradeoffs needing to be made. We need more people prepared to be honest like that in British politics.
"The next PM may well be from an ethnic minority. That’s a big deal – and a challenge for Labour Jonathan Freedland If Starmer’s party is seen as one that values minorities only when they need protection, solid sources of votes will dry up"
There are three of these debates. This is merely the first
Truss is toast but beyond that.... who knows. Rishi's polish shows here, he is is Winchester and Megabank and ex-COTE
But.... Which one will beat Starmer?
It is Mordaunt v Sunak, I reckon, and the Tory members will decide, not us
The Penny problem is that rather uniquely she has been called out on the stand for lying. And its on the dog whistle non-issue of chicks with dicks. She can try and talk around it, but they will keep coming back for it.
Is it unique? Leon has just said Kemi's tooth story is "a clear lie".
She wasn't called out by another candidate on the stand. Probably a lie, but they left it.
That 180 innovations has to be the gaffe of the night. I mean. It was so weirdly specific, and therefore easily disprovable. As has already been shown. Plus. It's on a topic of huge importance to the electorate. Strange.
It will be so interesting to see what Truss supporting MPs do on Monday.
I fear they will just keep their heads down and plough on.
On the one hand, most of her support likely consists of loons with a Brexit monomania. They're going to stick with her regardless because Suella Braverman is no longer available.
On the other, there are insufficient such loons to get Truss to 120 votes. So it looks very much like Sunak vs Mordaunt.
Alistair Campbell take - ignoring the typical ending Labour boosting, fair assessment
RishiSunak edged it in terms of getting over the message he wanted to land. TomTugendhat had the best moments and best closing speech. KemiBadenoch out of her depth PennyMordaunt playing it safe but all too vague. trussliz unimaginable as PM. Good night for Keir_Starmer
That can'td be JRM. He'd insist on about 20 members of the lower orders to do the work, and an overseer to supervise, while he went off in his post-chaise to the House.
Nah, he'd own the place, and 'for a bit of fun' insist on wading in with his amateur bungling, causing disruption for everyone else who has to stand there and wish him well because he's the boss.
Comments
Would you mind if I edited your comment to remove it?
OK, but what the hell else can she mean???
3.65 Rishi Sunak 27%
4.5 Liz Truss 22%
30 Kemi Badenoch
50 Tom Tugendhat
130 Dominic Raab
Are they being boycotted?
She should really go on her ordinariness in the next debate:
"I am not public school. I am not Oxford or Cambridge. I am not an ex banker. I am like YOU" - go for it, Penny
Much more apt comparison would be with the Missouri skirmish at start of Civil War, that Mark Twain chronicled as his first - and last - battle. Ill-advised, ludicrous, tragic. And sent Twain skidaddling westward!
Truss just isn't very good at selling herself, that is clear. But is the ERG backing enough to go past Mordaunt regardless?
But, two more debates to go…
Tom - 7 (Pleasantly surprised)
Kemi - 7 (I knew she's be good and didn't disappoint)
Penny - 6 (Wobbled early on but got better)
Rishi - 4 (The do nothing, tax dodging Prime Minister with millions in the bank)
Liz - 1 (Absolutely woeful)
And Armistead was a confederate.
Overall Sunak looks competent and wouldn’t scare people too much . Penny , great hair but really not a great hour and half for her . TT was just too sincere and I thought was going to burst into tears at times . Kemi did okay but I think is one for the future , Truss looked weird and was poor especially her drivel on taxes .
Starmer will have dodged a bullet when Sunak loses.
I fear they will just keep their heads down and plough on.
Liz for Leader
When do we want it?
Never
Only fly in the ointment is he just scraped 5th= with truss this evening and would have been a clear 6th if he had actually been there
Boris Johnson without a shadow of a doubt.
The others were a mix. Badenoch didn't do enough, Tugendhat was really good, but too eerily similey.
Mordaunt slightly better than Sunak.
And I say that knowing Sunak completely screwed up the Budget earlier this year.
For me it's got to be Penny, and I'd accept a blow job from Sunak mainly because he could do it immediately and wouldn't even have to kneel
*sorry, Mike*
It's a FEATURE like a flying buttress, gargoyle, or topiary hedge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Radda
Johnson had to implode
Johnson's replacement had to be deeply mediocre
The country in general, and the real economy in particular, had to melt like cheap icecream.
None of them really has much to do with him, but job being done.
She was appallingly crap.
It's done.
Lay and lay again unless the Sunday papers have a July surprise.
The only clear conclusion I can draw from it is that it highlighted and reinforced all previous concerns of the candidates, but with Truss being particularly bad.
My wife’s comment on Kemi: she sounded like she was in an interview for school prefect.
Our lonely wanderer has got onto the "would? would not?" multiple choice question.
Blair would have sunk it if he could. He certainly tried.
RishiSunak edged it in terms of getting over the message he wanted to land. TomTugendhat had the best moments and best closing speech. KemiBadenoch out of her depth PennyMordaunt playing it safe but all too vague. trussliz unimaginable as PM. Good night for Keir_Starmer
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1548034252578557954?cxt=HHwWhMCo0e283PsqAAAA
Badenoch accused Mordaunt of lying *in the debate*
Whoever Labour "fears the most" is never, surprisingly, the one they're facing and it always changes to someone else if it is.
Who Gains Most From The Truss Debacle To Move To The Final Two?
Funny Old World ...
Badenoch faded after a great start. She needs a lot of time to mature - she needs a big job in Cabinet. She's got a lot of potential. Truss was a calamity and Tugendhat was an irrelevant soldier talking about Tobruk, or whatever it was
I would still be wary of Mordaunt, if I were Labour. She's the one who could maintain much of the Red Wall and hold the Blue Wall. She is learning on the game. Also, she is withstanding intense nasty pressure from her opponents, but she still looks dignified
I'm still Team Penny (as much as I care)
Tonight we asked over 1000 normal voters to watch the debate and we have just asked them who they thought performed best.
Results:
Tugendhat 36%
Sunak 25%
Mordaunt 12%
Badenoch 12%
Truss 6% https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1548037032248717318/photo/1
Tonight we asked over 1000 normal voters to watch the debate and we have just asked them who they thought performed best.
Results:
Tugendhat 36%
Sunak 25%
Mordaunt 12%
Badenoch 12%
Truss 6%
Based on tonight's PB commentary, am revising that opinion.
Good night for Sunak, Tugendhat, and Penny at the end.
Dire for Truss, meh for the liar of dentists Kemi.
Asking for a friend.
I am surprised Tugendhat came over that well.
Edit - incidentally, their figures are wrong, it's 999 ordinary voters...
I did think he was good.
https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1547979620070277120?s=20&t=HbpuBy-qmwksud3PkjCg_A
Your ‘strange’ crush on Rishi Sunak could actually be a racist fetish
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rishi-sunak-conservative-crush-vogue-white-women-flora-e-gill-a9456036.html
I am attracted by her intelligence and humanity, and was quite cute with that yellow dress and smile as well.
But, maybe her brief for tonight was steady the buffs.
Penny Mordaunt - Er, what do people see in her? We can do lots of things, but no idea what any of them are. I thought she was awful.
Tom Tugendhat - There was something deeply strange about the way he spoke that I can't quite put my finger on. I had expected that I would agree with him most, but I didn't really.
Liz Truss - I'm amazed that she actually came out and said that she would borrow loads to pay for tax cuts. We're only 12 years on from, "I'm awfully sorry, but there's no money left," and one of the frontrunners to become the next leader of the Conservative Party is advocating a vast increase in the national debt. How did *that* happen?
Rishi Sunak - I don't trust him at all, and he's too slick by half, but - aside from my concerns over Ukraine, which weren't really touched in the debate - he gives the impression of being likely to do least damage to the country until the next election than the other frontrunners.
Kemi Badenoch - She was by far the standout performer. I felt that she was the most direct and most honest of the five. And she was most prepared to say that not everything was going to be good. I suspect that I wouldn't agree with the choices she would make about tradeoffs, but I respect the fact that she is honest about tradeoffs needing to be made. We need more people prepared to be honest like that in British politics.
Jonathan Freedland
If Starmer’s party is seen as one that values minorities only when they need protection, solid sources of votes will dry up"
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/mar/12/sitopia-how-food-can-save-the-world-carolyn-steel-review
I mean. It was so weirdly specific, and therefore easily disprovable.
As has already been shown.
Plus. It's on a topic of huge importance to the electorate. Strange.
On the other, there are insufficient such loons to get Truss to 120 votes. So it looks very much like Sunak vs Mordaunt.
It puts twitter's value in context that Dossier Kelly Campbell is some kind of big ass arbitrator of political honesty on there.
Or at least refrain from downing another, every time anyone referred to "delivering"?
If not, might explain the 6%
Though interesting that survey did NOT rate Bad'enoch or Sunak as highly as PBers. And has Tugenhat higher.