Tom - 7 (Pleasantly surprised) Kemi - 7 (I knew she's be good and didn't disappoint) Penny - 6 (Wobbled early on but got better) Rishi - 4 (The do nothing, tax dodging Prime Minister with millions in the bank) Liz - 1 (Absolutely woeful)
Were you watching Coronation Street?
Sunak, an 8. The remaining order is as you say, but I am deducting a point from each of them.
I think we can all agree that Penny is no longer the candidate "Labour fears the most"
I am trying to be neutral - honestly - and I am not so sure. Mordaunt gained over the hour. She is new to this. Sunak was predictably smooth but no more, he has been COTE and he's Winchester/Oxford, he has the confidence and glisten, but that's it. Any ideas? Nope
Badenoch faded after a great start. She needs a lot of time to mature - she needs a big job in Cabinet. She's got a lot of potential. Truss was a calamity and Tugendhat was an irrelevant soldier talking about Tobruk, or whatever it was
I would still be wary of Mordaunt, if I were Labour. She's the one who could maintain much of the Red Wall and hold the Blue Wall. She is learning on the game. Also, she is withstanding intense nasty pressure from her opponents, but she still looks dignified
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
My ranking for tonight based on what I think the actual selectorate will think:
1.) Rishi- He had grown up answers and the audience liked a lot of them. Did enough to keep the mainstream MPs onside
2.) Penny- I didn’t think she was brilliant but I don’t think she’ll have frightened anyone from the other candidate’s camps into not backing her.
3.) Kemi- She came across really well but I don’t think she will have answered the all important question of experience. You can’t keep calling things out in the name of honesty if you don’t actually have any answers.
4.) Tom- Seemed to be running for leader of the Lib Dems by doing a Nick Clegg impression. I’d vote for him which is an excellent reason why the Tory Party won’t
5.) Liz- Just dire. I genuinely feared for her health at times.
Instead of flouncing George Osborne should have played the long game, he'd be running rings around all of them and he'd probably give Kemi No. 11, he shouldn't have taken being sacked by May so personally.
Osborne would probably have failed to beat Corbyn and a resurgent Farage
No, I mean he should have stuck around and waited out Theresa May, then made a play for a big role under Boris then laid in wait for Boris to implode. He'd be far and away the favourite today.
Nah, he's part of the Ancien Regime. He'd have no place in today's Conservative Party.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
No he’s not, he’s lower middle class. Same as Mordaunt.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
No he’s not, he’s lower middle class. Same as Mordaunt.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
I do try to be nice to you, but please stop putting words in my mouth. At no point did I deny that Starmer is Working Class (tho actually I would say he is lower middle class: like Mordaunt - I was using shorthand)
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Mordaunt isn't working class. We've been over this.
Tom - 7 (Pleasantly surprised) Kemi - 7 (I knew she's be good and didn't disappoint) Penny - 6 (Wobbled early on but got better) Rishi - 4 (The do nothing, tax dodging Prime Minister with millions in the bank) Liz - 1 (Absolutely woeful)
Were you watching Coronation Street?
Sunak, an 8. The remaining order is as you say, but I am deducting a point from each of them.
Rishi Rich would have been great... in 1997... 2001, 2005, 2010, 2015 and maybe even 2017... but the world has moved on from tired Tony Blair tribute acts.
And I personally find if offensive that this multi-millionaire tax dodger had absolutely nothing to offer to anyone in these times of hardship. He even seemed to be opposing the very modest reduction on fuel that the other candidates were proposing.
She's quite right. When did you last see a Watt governor on an NHS ward?
OTOH the underlying principle of cybernetic feedback is absolutely fundamental to many a bit of NHS kit. As are, for instance, the basic principles of electromagnetism, the atomic theory of chenistry, and the concept of the genetic message encapsulated in the DNA sequence. Not to mention the notion of the wotsit electronic thingy spread over the C6H5- hexagon, the germ theorh of disease, the development of modern ventilation and sanitation, and so on and so forth.
Is there a link to this 180 innovations shit? Would love to read down it and call bullshit...
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
No he’s not, he’s lower middle class. Same as Mordaunt.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
I've been on for Team Mordaunt all week, and she will likely as not still win.
You may still feel some stirring in the trouser region for her, but most of the rest of us feel she would be found out against Starmer, who I agree is not a great performer.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
I do try to be nice to you, but please stop putting words in my mouth. At no point did I deny that Starmer is Working Class (tho actually I would say he is lower middle class: like Mordaunt - I was using shorthand)
Angela Rayner is authentic working class
I misread your post, I will apologise.
But Starmer is working class, he fits the definition based on upbringing.
I think Mordaunt's problem is that she isn't political enough. She's treating it like a job interview and making herself completely bland.
I think she would be horribly found out if she ends up running the country in the current dire circumstances.
As PM you can choose how much you actually do. The main point of the role is delegation. I think she'd want and need to delegate more than has been the custom recently. However if she chooses her ministers wisely then that could be a goiod thing.
Incidentally I think any future PM would be wise to delegate more.
She's quite right. When did you last see a Watt governor on an NHS ward?
OTOH the underlying principle of cybernetic feedback is absolutely fundamental to many a bit of NHS kit. As are, for instance, the basic principles of electromagnetism, the atomic theory of chenistry, and the concept of the genetic message encapsulated in the DNA sequence. Not to mention the notion of the wotsit electronic thingy spread over the C6H5- hexagon, the germ theorh of disease, the development of modern ventilation and sanitation, and so on and so forth.
Is there a link to this 180 innovations shit? Would love to read down it and call bullshit...
Me too. I;ve seen more convincingly literate turds in the monkey house at Edinburgh Zoo.
I think we can all agree that Penny is no longer the candidate "Labour fears the most"
I am trying to be neutral - honestly - and I am not so sure. Mordaunt gained over the hour. She is new to this. Sunak was predictably smooth but no more, he has been COTE and he's Winchester/Oxford, he has the confidence and glisten, but that's it. Any ideas? Nope
Badenoch faded after a great start. She needs a lot of time to mature - she needs a big job in Cabinet. She's got a lot of potential. Truss was a calamity and Tugendhat was an irrelevant soldier talking about Tobruk, or whatever it was
I would still be wary of Mordaunt, if I were Labour. She's the one who could maintain much of the Red Wall and hold the Blue Wall. She is learning on the game. Also, she is withstanding intense nasty pressure from her opponents, but she still looks dignified
There are three of these debates. This is merely the first
Truss is toast but beyond that.... who knows. Rishi's polish shows here, he is is Winchester and Megabank and ex-COTE
But.... Which one will beat Starmer?
It is Mordaunt v Sunak, I reckon, and the Tory members will decide, not us
The Penny problem is that rather uniquely she has been called out on the stand for lying. And its on the dog whistle non-issue of chicks with dicks. She can try and talk around it, but they will keep coming back for it.
Is it unique? Leon has just said Kemi's tooth story is "a clear lie".
We've called Badenoch out on this board.
Badenoch accused Mordaunt of lying *in the debate*
Yes, but Leon's point is likely to be picked up upon by others, esp. media AND other campaigns.
I should have liked TT but following on from LPs post he was talking in a weird manner . I also found him just too cringy.
Penny looks the part although i thought she was underwhelming in tonight’s debate , I love her styling and hair which is fab and makes me think of Bond , Money Penny and she does seem calm . I think she could grow on people .
Kemi was good and I like her talking about trade offs.
Sunak looks like a safe pair of hands and won’t spend his time trying to add to the divisions in the country .
Truss is terrible in this format , very wooden and has zero charisma .
That's a completely idiotic soundbite. One of the innovations is X-ray Tomography which is the basis of CT scanning. It's demonstrably false.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, Coherent Light Emission, transistors...
NMR is at least an American innovation, so not in that list of 180. Though as CHB points out, the NHS uses the web and it's absolutely number one on the list.
Sir Peter Mansfield shared a Nobel Prize for that. Based at University of Nottingham. Used in the NHS.
Even if we are just talking COVID, and ignoring the most AZ vaccine, there is the innovative use of mass data from the NHS for a number of innovations, that use of mass data itself, the viral sequencing programme, the ability to do more rapid research than almost anywhere, the discovery of dexamethasone as a treatment to ease the symptoms for people on ventilators, and plenty more.
That's Truss - the continuity Johnson candidate - in last place among people who after partygate and everything else still identify as Conservatives. Not a good result https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1548040462526607363
This Opinium poll is not of1000 ordinary voters. It's of 1000 people who spend 2 hours of a Friday evening watching a political debate and then filling in an Online survey. They may be many things, but ordinary isn't one of them.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
That's a completely idiotic soundbite. One of the innovations is X-ray Tomography which is the basis of CT scanning. It's demonstrably false.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, Coherent Light Emission, transistors...
NMR is at least an American innovation, so not in that list of 180. Though as CHB points out, the NHS uses the web and it's absolutely number one on the list.
Sir Peter Mansfield shared a Nobel Prize for that. Based at University of Nottingham. Used in the NHS.
Even if we are just talking COVID, and ignoring the most AZ vaccine, there is the innovative use of mass data from the NHS for a number of innovations, that use of mass data itself, the viral sequencing programme, the ability to do more rapid research than almost anywhere, the discovery of dexamethasone as a treatment to ease the symptoms for people on ventilators, and plenty more.
Tom - 7 (Pleasantly surprised) Kemi - 7 (I knew she's be good and didn't disappoint) Penny - 6 (Wobbled early on but got better) Rishi - 4 (The do nothing, tax dodging Prime Minister with millions in the bank) Liz - 1 (Absolutely woeful)
Were you watching Coronation Street?
Sunak, an 8. The remaining order is as you say, but I am deducting a point from each of them.
Rishi Rich would have been great... in 1997... 2001, 2005, 2010, 2015 and maybe even 2017... but the world has moved on from tired Tony Blair tribute acts.
And I personally find if offensive that this multi-millionaire tax dodger had absolutely nothing to offer to anyone in these times of hardship. He even seemed to be opposing the very modest reduction on fuel that the other candidates were proposing.
I can't disagree with the Sunak backstory you have explained to us, and that he is a dreadful little weasel, but on tonight's performance he was awesome compared to the company he kept.
If, as seems likely, the final two are Penny and Rishi, then the ERG/right/Nad/Mogg/JRM/Baker/IDS/Brexiteers might all finally be wrested from their positions of power and washed down the plug hole.
The multitudinous seas incarnadine will reoxygenate and become green again. Rejoice at that news!
Tom - 7 (Pleasantly surprised) Kemi - 7 (I knew she's be good and didn't disappoint) Penny - 6 (Wobbled early on but got better) Rishi - 4 (The do nothing, tax dodging Prime Minister with millions in the bank) Liz - 1 (Absolutely woeful)
Were you watching Coronation Street?
Sunak, an 8. The remaining order is as you say, but I am deducting a point from each of them.
Rishi Rich would have been great... in 1997... 2001, 2005, 2010, 2015 and maybe even 2017... but the world has moved on from tired Tony Blair tribute acts.
And I personally find if offensive that this multi-millionaire tax dodger had absolutely nothing to offer to anyone in these times of hardship. He even seemed to be opposing the very modest reduction on fuel that the other candidates were proposing.
I can't disagree with the Sunak backstory you have explained to us, and that he is a dreadful little weasel, but on tonight's performance he was awesome compared to the company he kept.
One doesn't need to outrun the tiger, only one's running companion.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
I do try to be nice to you, but please stop putting words in my mouth. At no point did I deny that Starmer is Working Class (tho actually I would say he is lower middle class: like Mordaunt - I was using shorthand)
Angela Rayner is authentic working class
I misread your post, I will apologise.
But Starmer is working class, he fits the definition based on upbringing.
Apology accepted
Thankyou
For what is is worth, I agree with the consensus on here, both are lower middle class, borderline working class
It is sad that Britain is still saddled with these near-Indian type caste definitions, but we are, for now
And if it comes to a revolution, right now I am on the side of the communards. Enough of the fucking posh boys. Enough Camerons, Johnsons and Sunaks. I want someone from the barrios in Number 10. We've had enough Etonians for a generation
That's a completely idiotic soundbite. One of the innovations is X-ray Tomography which is the basis of CT scanning. It's demonstrably false.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, Coherent Light Emission, transistors...
NMR is at least an American innovation, so not in that list of 180. Though as CHB points out, the NHS uses the web and it's absolutely number one on the list.
Sir Peter Mansfield shared a Nobel Prize for that. Based at University of Nottingham. Used in the NHS.
Even if we are just talking COVID, and ignoring the most AZ vaccine, there is the innovative use of mass data from the NHS for a number of innovations, that use of mass data itself, the viral sequencing programme, the ability to do more rapid research than almost anywhere, the discovery of dexamethasone as a treatment to ease the symptoms for people on ventilators, and plenty more.
Has PM taken an innovative hallucinogen?
Also, consider the Cochrane Collaboration for instance, for meta-analysis of clinical trials. That was germinated within the NHS.
Nadine should have been the continuity Boris candidate. As least she's a laugh. Liz is just scary... She'd actually make babies cry on the campaign trail.
She's like an extra from Night Of The Living Dead....
If, as seems likely, the final two are Penny and Rishi, then the ERG/right/Nad/Mogg/JRM/Baker/IDS/Brexiteers might all finally be wrested from their positions of power and washed down the plug hole.
The multitudinous seas incarnadine will reoxygenate and become green again. Rejoice at that news!
I, for one, look forward to six months of the ERG ensuring the business of government can't be maintained.
EXCELLENT final statement from Penny. She's still in the game
She should really go on her ordinariness in the next debate:
"I am not public school. I am not Oxford or Cambridge. I am not an ex banker. I am like YOU" - go for it, Penny
I thought all the final statements dire, but Sunak wins the debate because he was the only one to give a serious answer to the question about fuel bills, which is what people reasonably expect their government to have an answer to.
And I say that knowing Sunak completely screwed up the Budget earlier this year.
I’m not a natural Conservative voter. I don’t expect to vote Tory at the next GE. So, in terms of actual policies, unsurprisingly none of them were that appealing. I thought Mordaunt made a few good points, followed by Sunak, then Truss (strongly anti-Putin).
But I suspect winning elections and winning leadership campaigns is only a bit about policy and more about how people come across. If I ignore actual policies, and my distrust of this Conservative regime and indeed of these specific candidates’ past positions, then my emotional response was for Sunak. Badenoch had some strong moments, but seemed green round the ears: someone to watch for the future, not someone to take over now. Third, I’d put Mordaunt, OK in places. Then Tug, then Truss.
Things that surprised me… OK, I get what some see in Kemi. I was surprised how little Tugendhat worked for me. He began well with his strong anti-Boris message, but nothing else impressed.
I presume Tug goes out next round. This will benefit Mordaunt and Sunak. But I think there are enough votes on the right ultimately to get someone they want to the final two, Truss or Badenoch, and I don’t think Kemi has done enough, so I wonder whether the final 2 is Sunak against a wounded Truss, and Sunak wins?
This Opinium poll is not of1000 ordinary voters. It's of 1000 people who spend 2 hours of a Friday evening watching a political debate and then filling in an Online survey. They may be many things, but ordinary isn't one of them.
It's amazing they could even find a thousand of them.
Nadine should have been the continuity Boris candidate. As least she's a laugh. Liz is just scary... She'd actually make babies cry on the campaign trail.
She like an extra from Night Of The Living Dead....
Interesting that Tory voters and the general public both give the top rating to the one remaining candidate that the Tory membership won't touch with a barge poll because he was not of the one true faith.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
LOL. Grammar school poshboi.
LOL. Someone pontificating on a political betting site who's never heard the narrative about "grammar schools are good because they benefit bright working-class kids".
Hello again to all, after a long time away. Truss I'm sure won't have been helped by tonight's performance.
Badenoch and Tugendhat look to me to have solid potential for the future, and Sunak and Mordaunt to me still to be the frontrunners. Sunak has his senior governmental experience and charm to fall back on, and Mordaunt a conversational and more empathic style which will be able to come out, and to the fore again, in a longer-form interview or debate, in the following round.
And since Tugendhat goes out next (no way so many MPs switch to change that), coming above Truss and Badenoch may be sufficient - not liking the performance in the debate doesn't necessarily mean they would vote Sunak over her.
Nadine should have been the continuity Boris candidate. As least she's a laugh. Liz is just scary... She'd actually make babies cry on the campaign trail.
She's like an extra from Night Of The Living Dead....
Interesting that Tory voters and the general public both give the top rating to the one remaining candidate that the Tory membership won't touch with a barge poll because he was not of the one true faith.
It’s another omen of Brexit decay. One of those “morbid symptoms” Gramsci wrote about.
"Heatwave-hit Britons rush to buy rosé wine, fans and ice-cream Majestic Wine says sales of the pink wine are up 49%, as government issues red alert on heat"
That's a completely idiotic soundbite. One of the innovations is X-ray Tomography which is the basis of CT scanning. It's demonstrably false.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, Coherent Light Emission, transistors...
NMR is at least an American innovation, so not in that list of 180. Though as CHB points out, the NHS uses the web and it's absolutely number one on the list.
Sir Peter Mansfield shared a Nobel Prize for that. Based at University of Nottingham. Used in the NHS.
Even if we are just talking COVID, and ignoring the most AZ vaccine, there is the innovative use of mass data from the NHS for a number of innovations, that use of mass data itself, the viral sequencing programme, the ability to do more rapid research than almost anywhere, the discovery of dexamethasone as a treatment to ease the symptoms for people on ventilators, and plenty more.
Has PM taken an innovative hallucinogen?
Also, consider the Cochrane Collaboration for instance, for meta-analysis of clinical trials. That was germinated within the NHS.
I presumed she meant recent, probably mainly digital, innovations, and she meant specific products rather than broader technologies or even ideas. I could well believe that if you had a list of 180 of those that none would be in use in the NHS.
But if you’re going to run with a message, you shouldn’t leave your audience having to work out what you meant!
My ranking for tonight based on what I think the actual selectorate will think:
1.) Rishi- He had grown up answers and the audience liked a lot of them. Did enough to keep the mainstream MPs onside
I found it was interesting that he had the audience onside when he was criticising Truss for her mad borrowing plan. The voters that Osborne appealed to during the austerity years are still out there, and they still don't like the idea of endless borrowing.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
I do try to be nice to you, but please stop putting words in my mouth. At no point did I deny that Starmer is Working Class (tho actually I would say he is lower middle class: like Mordaunt - I was using shorthand)
Angela Rayner is authentic working class
I misread your post, I will apologise.
But Starmer is working class, he fits the definition based on upbringing.
Apology accepted
Thankyou
For what is is worth, I agree with the consensus on here, both are lower middle class, borderline working class
It is sad that Britain is still saddled with these near-Indian type caste definitions, but we are, for now
And if it comes to a revolution, right now I am on the side of the communards. Enough of the fucking posh boys. Enough Camerons, Johnsons and Sunaks. I want someone from the barrios in Number 10. We've had enough Etonians for a generation
If Sunak wins we won't have an Old Etonian as PM, we will have a Wykehamist instead
Interesting that Tory voters and the general public both give the top rating to the one remaining candidate that the Tory membership won't touch with a barge poll because he was not of the one true faith.
The poll asked who they thought performed best. I think Boris is a better public speaker than Ed Davey but I wouldn’t vote for him in a million years.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
I do try to be nice to you, but please stop putting words in my mouth. At no point did I deny that Starmer is Working Class (tho actually I would say he is lower middle class: like Mordaunt - I was using shorthand)
Angela Rayner is authentic working class
I misread your post, I will apologise.
But Starmer is working class, he fits the definition based on upbringing.
Apology accepted
Thankyou
For what is is worth, I agree with the consensus on here, both are lower middle class, borderline working class
It is sad that Britain is still saddled with these near-Indian type caste definitions, but we are, for now
And if it comes to a revolution, right now I am on the side of the communards. Enough of the fucking posh boys. Enough Camerons, Johnsons and Sunaks. I want someone from the barrios in Number 10. We've had enough Etonians for a generation
If Sunak wins we won't have an Old Etonian as PM, we will have a Wykehamist instead
I think Mordaunt's problem is that she isn't political enough. She's treating it like a job interview and making herself completely bland.
Penny was a bit too discursive and often avoided the actual question. She might do better in a long interview. Do we know what formats will be used for the next debates?
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
I do try to be nice to you, but please stop putting words in my mouth. At no point did I deny that Starmer is Working Class (tho actually I would say he is lower middle class: like Mordaunt - I was using shorthand)
Angela Rayner is authentic working class
I misread your post, I will apologise.
But Starmer is working class, he fits the definition based on upbringing.
Apology accepted
Thankyou
For what is is worth, I agree with the consensus on here, both are lower middle class, borderline working class
It is sad that Britain is still saddled with these near-Indian type caste definitions, but we are, for now
And if it comes to a revolution, right now I am on the side of the communards. Enough of the fucking posh boys. Enough Camerons, Johnsons and Sunaks. I want someone from the barrios in Number 10. We've had enough Etonians for a generation
If Sunak wins we won't have an Old Etonian as PM, we will have a Wykehamist instead
Doesn't JRM think that's the dirtiest insult on the planet?
Like PM I'm the child of two teachers. Like her my Dad had a working class job for years before he re-trained. There is no way on God's Earth I am borderline working class. And I didn't go on to work on two Presidential campaigns, jobs in PR then an MP, either.
My ranking for tonight based on what I think the actual selectorate will think:
1.) Rishi- He had grown up answers and the audience liked a lot of them. Did enough to keep the mainstream MPs onside
2.) Penny- I didn’t think she was brilliant but I don’t think she’ll have frightened anyone from the other candidate’s camps into not backing her.
3.) Kemi- She came across really well but I don’t think she will have answered the all important question of experience. You can’t keep calling things out in the name of honesty if you don’t actually have any answers.
4.) Tom- Seemed to be running for leader of the Lib Dems by doing a Nick Clegg impression. I’d vote for him which is an excellent reason why the Tory Party won’t
5.) Liz- Just dire. I genuinely feared for her health at times.
For all his flaws, Johnson is a top tier politician in a way that none of the people on the stage today are. The Tories may regret turfing him out.
I hate this kind of reasoning. Yes, he was top tier in some ways, but he also had massive flaws which were overwhelming everything else. It was not going to end well - the very fact he got turfed out by MPs after winning so big 3 years ago demonstrates he is not as top tier as people think, either - he should never have been so vulnerable.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
I do try to be nice to you, but please stop putting words in my mouth. At no point did I deny that Starmer is Working Class (tho actually I would say he is lower middle class: like Mordaunt - I was using shorthand)
Angela Rayner is authentic working class
I misread your post, I will apologise.
But Starmer is working class, he fits the definition based on upbringing.
Apology accepted
Thankyou
For what is is worth, I agree with the consensus on here, both are lower middle class, borderline working class
It is sad that Britain is still saddled with these near-Indian type caste definitions, but we are, for now
And if it comes to a revolution, right now I am on the side of the communards. Enough of the fucking posh boys. Enough Camerons, Johnsons and Sunaks. I want someone from the barrios in Number 10. We've had enough Etonians for a generation
The thing is the English class system is infinitely graduated, and everybody - EVERYBODY - bar HMQ, is acutely aware of their position in it. No exceptions. HMQs kids are desperate social climbers: Chas wants to be king, the rapist wants his HRH back, Etonians who weren'y in Pop want to be in pop, St Paulians want to be Etonians, and so on till it inverts and lower middle class poshbois like SKS want to be working class.
I think Mordaunt's problem is that she isn't political enough. She's treating it like a job interview and making herself completely bland.
Penny was a bit too discursive and often avoided the actual question. She might do better in a long interview. Do we know what formats will be used for the next debates?
Or is she an empty vessel?
I don't think so. I think she's as much of an emotional and empathic communicator as anything else ; as Leon says, this is why her closing personal statement was notably the best, and probably why her solo press conferences have been the most successful with the press and tory electorate, too.
I think we can all agree that Penny is no longer the candidate "Labour fears the most"
I am trying to be neutral - honestly - and I am not so sure. Mordaunt gained over the hour. She is new to this. Sunak was predictably smooth but no more, he has been COTE and he's Winchester/Oxford, he has the confidence and glisten, but that's it. Any ideas? Nope
Badenoch faded after a great start. She needs a lot of time to mature - she needs a big job in Cabinet. She's got a lot of potential. Truss was a calamity and Tugendhat was an irrelevant soldier talking about Tobruk, or whatever it was
I would still be wary of Mordaunt, if I were Labour. She's the one who could maintain much of the Red Wall and hold the Blue Wall. She is learning on the game. Also, she is withstanding intense nasty pressure from her opponents, but she still looks dignified
Interesting that Tory voters and the general public both give the top rating to the one remaining candidate that the Tory membership won't touch with a barge poll because he was not of the one true faith.
The poll asked who they thought performed best. I think Boris is a better public speaker than Ed Davey but I wouldn’t vote for him in a million years.
Usually there is still plenty of voting for the preferred candidate, some will always say their choice performed better out of loyalty.
With a contest which is all Tories, and where people may be less attached personally to the options, it may be closer to honest.
That's a completely idiotic soundbite. One of the innovations is X-ray Tomography which is the basis of CT scanning. It's demonstrably false.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, Coherent Light Emission, transistors...
NMR is at least an American innovation, so not in that list of 180. Though as CHB points out, the NHS uses the web and it's absolutely number one on the list.
Sir Peter Mansfield shared a Nobel Prize for that. Based at University of Nottingham. Used in the NHS.
Even if we are just talking COVID, and ignoring the most AZ vaccine, there is the innovative use of mass data from the NHS for a number of innovations, that use of mass data itself, the viral sequencing programme, the ability to do more rapid research than almost anywhere, the discovery of dexamethasone as a treatment to ease the symptoms for people on ventilators, and plenty more.
Has PM taken an innovative hallucinogen?
Also, consider the Cochrane Collaboration for instance, for meta-analysis of clinical trials. That was germinated within the NHS.
I presumed she meant recent, probably mainly digital, innovations, and she meant specific products rather than broader technologies or even ideas. I could well believe that if you had a list of 180 of those that none would be in use in the NHS.
But if you’re going to run with a message, you shouldn’t leave your audience having to work out what you meant!
Can't understand why that is off topic ... wasn't me, anyway, even with fat fingers.
Penny - unconvincing, vacuous Kemi - more convincing, but still vacuous and no substance Rishi - fluent and won, but creepy and untrustworthy Liz - bad, mad, and sad Tom - hello, centrist dad.
EXCELLENT final statement from Penny. She's still in the game
She should really go on her ordinariness in the next debate:
"I am not public school. I am not Oxford or Cambridge. I am not an ex banker. I am like YOU" - go for it, Penny
I thought all the final statements dire, but Sunak wins the debate because he was the only one to give a serious answer to the question about fuel bills, which is what people reasonably expect their government to have an answer to.
And I say that knowing Sunak completely screwed up the Budget earlier this year.
I’m not a natural Conservative voter. I don’t expect to vote Tory at the next GE. So, in terms of actual policies, unsurprisingly none of them were that appealing. I thought Mordaunt made a few good points, followed by Sunak, then Truss (strongly anti-Putin).
But I suspect winning elections and winning leadership campaigns is only a bit about policy and more about how people come across. If I ignore actual policies, and my distrust of this Conservative regime and indeed of these specific candidates’ past positions, then my emotional response was for Sunak. Badenoch had some strong moments, but seemed green round the ears: someone to watch for the future, not someone to take over now. Third, I’d put Mordaunt, OK in places. Then Tug, then Truss.
Things that surprised me… OK, I get what some see in Kemi. I was surprised how little Tugendhat worked for me. He began well with his strong anti-Boris message, but nothing else impressed.
I presume Tug goes out next round. This will benefit Mordaunt and Sunak. But I think there are enough votes on the right ultimately to get someone they want to the final two, Truss or Badenoch, and I don’t think Kemi has done enough, so I wonder whether the final 2 is Sunak against a wounded Truss, and Sunak wins?
Funnily enough I think Truss would make an OKish PM, if she could escape the clutches of the ERG and focused on her day job rather than trying to create a non-existent personality cult. She has a basic level of competence that is lacking in the other candidates.
Tugendhat didn't impress me, but I suppose people liked that he was the only one to make it clear he didn't believe Johnson one bit.
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
No and not really, just the one.
Starmer is fairly shit. Sorry. But he is, and let us not forget this. He only got the job because so many more talented players fled the field during the Corbyn Terror
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
Keir Starmer is working class, why are you so dishonest?
I do try to be nice to you, but please stop putting words in my mouth. At no point did I deny that Starmer is Working Class (tho actually I would say he is lower middle class: like Mordaunt - I was using shorthand)
Angela Rayner is authentic working class
I misread your post, I will apologise.
But Starmer is working class, he fits the definition based on upbringing.
Apology accepted
Thankyou
For what is is worth, I agree with the consensus on here, both are lower middle class, borderline working class
It is sad that Britain is still saddled with these near-Indian type caste definitions, but we are, for now
And if it comes to a revolution, right now I am on the side of the communards. Enough of the fucking posh boys. Enough Camerons, Johnsons and Sunaks. I want someone from the barrios in Number 10. We've had enough Etonians for a generation
Starmer is a lawyer. Middle Class. But I accept that Horse was talking about his upbringing. But my understanding was that Starmer's father owned a small toolmaking firm. That strikes me as a middle class ba0
Comments
Sunak, an 8. The remaining order is as you say, but I am deducting a point from each of them.
Starmer would be worried by the working class female Mordaunt, he might struggle against BME woman Badenoch, or not (because she is such a wildcard). He would be certainly equalled by Sunak (and probably outfoxed on financial matters)
He'd only be truly confident against Tugendhat (posh white inexperienced soldier, easy easy) or the ridiculous Truss
😂😂😂
1.) Rishi- He had grown up answers and the audience liked a lot of them. Did enough to keep the mainstream MPs onside
2.) Penny- I didn’t think she was brilliant but I don’t think she’ll have frightened anyone from the other candidate’s camps into not backing her.
3.) Kemi- She came across really well but I don’t think she will have answered the all important question of experience. You can’t keep calling things out in the name of honesty if you don’t actually have any answers.
4.) Tom- Seemed to be running for leader of the Lib Dems by doing a Nick Clegg impression. I’d vote for him which is an excellent reason why the Tory Party won’t
5.) Liz- Just dire. I genuinely feared for her health at times.
Same as Mordaunt.
Tugendhat 29%
Sunak 28%
Mordaunt 15%
Badenoch 12%
Truss 10%
Mordaunt is out
Truss was hilariously bad, sadly, because I was desperate for her to win for the lolz.
1, Tugendhat
2, Sunak
3, Truss
4, Badenoch
5, Mordaunt
But none are working class.
Angela Rayner is authentic working class
We've been over this.
And I personally find if offensive that this multi-millionaire tax dodger had absolutely nothing to offer to anyone in these times of hardship. He even seemed to be opposing the very modest reduction on fuel that the other candidates were proposing.
You may still feel some stirring in the trouser region for her, but most of the rest of us feel she would be found out against Starmer, who I agree is not a great performer.
But Starmer is working class, he fits the definition based on upbringing.
Incidentally I think any future PM would be wise to delegate more.
Penny looks the part although i thought she was underwhelming in tonight’s debate , I love her styling and hair which is fab and makes me think of Bond , Money Penny and she does seem calm . I think she could grow on people .
Kemi was good and I like her talking about trade offs.
Sunak looks like a safe pair of hands and won’t spend his time trying to add to the divisions in the country .
Truss is terrible in this format , very wooden and has zero charisma .
Sir Peter Mansfield shared a Nobel Prize for that. Based at University of Nottingham. Used in the NHS.
Even if we are just talking COVID, and ignoring the most AZ vaccine, there is the innovative use of mass data from the NHS for a number of innovations, that use of mass data itself, the viral sequencing programme, the ability to do more rapid research than almost anywhere, the discovery of dexamethasone as a treatment to ease the symptoms for people on ventilators, and plenty more.
Has PM taken an innovative hallucinogen?
https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1548040462526607363
Tugendhat 61/31
Sunak 51/45
Mordaunt 44/49
Badenoch 41/49
Truss 29/65
Tugendhat 61/31
Sunak 51/45
Mordaunt 44/49
Badenoch 41/49
Truss 29/65
https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1548040513315475456/photo/1
Penny didn't stand out so I wouldn't expect many to say she was best. But she didn't do anything to lose support.
In contrast, everyone now knows Truss is not a credible PM.
It's of 1000 people who spend 2 hours of a Friday evening watching a political debate and then filling in an Online survey.
They may be many things, but ordinary isn't one of them.
Well Penny...
If, as seems likely, the final two are Penny and Rishi, then the ERG/right/Nad/Mogg/JRM/Baker/IDS/Brexiteers might all finally be wrested from their positions of power and washed down the plug hole.
The multitudinous seas incarnadine will reoxygenate and become green again. Rejoice at that news!
Thankyou
For what is is worth, I agree with the consensus on here, both are lower middle class, borderline working class
It is sad that Britain is still saddled with these near-Indian type caste definitions, but we are, for now
And if it comes to a revolution, right now I am on the side of the communards. Enough of the fucking posh boys. Enough Camerons, Johnsons and Sunaks. I want someone from the barrios in Number 10. We've had enough Etonians for a generation
She's like an extra from Night Of The Living Dead....
But I suspect winning elections and winning leadership campaigns is only a bit about policy and more about how people come across. If I ignore actual policies, and my distrust of this Conservative regime and indeed of these specific candidates’ past positions, then my emotional response was for Sunak. Badenoch had some strong moments, but seemed green round the ears: someone to watch for the future, not someone to take over now. Third, I’d put Mordaunt, OK in places. Then Tug, then Truss.
Things that surprised me… OK, I get what some see in Kemi. I was surprised how little Tugendhat worked for me. He began well with his strong anti-Boris message, but nothing else impressed.
I presume Tug goes out next round. This will benefit Mordaunt and Sunak. But I think there are enough votes on the right ultimately to get someone they want to the final two, Truss or Badenoch, and I don’t think Kemi has done enough, so I wonder whether the final 2 is Sunak against a wounded Truss, and Sunak wins?
“Mordaunt is vapid”
“Sunak is too slick. He’s hold-your-nose fishy”
“Truss is the worst communicator ever”
I will ask him about Kemi and the Tug.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSDyz2V2QxM
Badenoch and Tugendhat look to me to have solid potential for the future, and Sunak and Mordaunt to me still to be the frontrunners. Sunak has his senior governmental experience and charm to fall back on, and Mordaunt a conversational and more empathic style which will be able to come out, and to the fore again, in a longer-form interview or debate, in the following round.
And since Tugendhat goes out next (no way so many MPs switch to change that), coming above Truss and Badenoch may be sufficient - not liking the performance in the debate doesn't necessarily mean they would vote Sunak over her.
One of those “morbid symptoms” Gramsci wrote about.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/15/heatwave-britons-red-alert-fans-rose-wine-ice-cream-sales
"Heatwave-hit Britons rush to buy rosé wine, fans and ice-cream
Majestic Wine says sales of the pink wine are up 49%, as government issues red alert on heat"
But if you’re going to run with a message, you shouldn’t leave your audience having to work out what you meant!
FFS even TMay has gained a kind of gravitas despite being the worst PM ever. Likewise Major
There is no way on God's Earth I am borderline working class.
And I didn't go on to work on two Presidential campaigns, jobs in PR then an MP, either.
With a contest which is all Tories, and where people may be less attached personally to the options, it may be closer to honest.
Penny - unconvincing, vacuous
Kemi - more convincing, but still vacuous and no substance
Rishi - fluent and won, but creepy and untrustworthy
Liz - bad, mad, and sad
Tom - hello, centrist dad.
Tugendhat didn't impress me, but I suppose people liked that he was the only one to make it clear he didn't believe Johnson one bit.
But I accept that Horse was talking about his upbringing.
But my understanding was that Starmer's father owned a small toolmaking firm. That strikes me as a middle class ba0