Tom comes across as very knowledgable but rather world weary. Like an Oxford don who has seen it all and despairs that none of their ideas have ever been taken up.
Biggest loser given her position in the betting is Penny.
Probably inevitable because she had nothing to gain and a huge amount to lose. She was popular by being an unknown quantity that people could project their hopes onto. Inevitable that if she doesn't smash it out of the park that bubble would pop.
Choosing Truss as their preferred candidate speaks volumes about the ERG. The Tories have been held hostage by these parts for fear too long. The sooner they get booted into oblivion the better. Same goes for Dorries and Rees-Mogg
Can the 22 committe change the rules so that Graham Brady draws a revolver after each vote is announced and shoots the loser? Because jesus fucking wept this performance.
I almost feel bad for whoever takes over, since even if they do a good job it may well be that inflation etc does for them and they end up as the shortest serving PM in decades.
That’s why Kemi should really be a LOTO first I think. Give her time and space to grow and really build her team and ideas.
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Truss keeps saying she gets things done but I cannot recall anything she has got done
You can't be listening. She has signed great trade deals, she has beaten the EU/IRA and she has beaten Putin. She has repeated this for every question.
Rishi Tom Kemi Penny Truss and a near terminal performance
Completely agree. I expected Sunak to be good and he is. Tommy T a big surprise. Kemi remains the interesting and intriguing leftfield proposition. I've just compared Mordor to a crap fake burger. And Truss is Harriet Jones.
Might be difficult to assess betting odds here as to how a reasonably normal, intelligent person might react to the candidates, vs a) Tory MPs, b) Tory party members. E.g. the latter, when offered a choice between Ken Clarke and Ian Duncan Smith, chose Smith.... (not exactly electoral dynamite).
Indeed, the most relevant comments on here are from Tory members or Tory MPs as we are the only ones who get to vote for them
You must however accept you are not the spokesperson for 160,000 members- you are one voice amongst that group
Can the 22 committe change the rules so that Graham Brady draws a revolver after each vote is announced and shoots the loser? Because jesus fucking wept this performance.
I like that idea, but can he shoot the winner instead?
Rishi Tom Kemi Penny Truss and a near terminal performance
Completely agree. I expected Sunak to be good and he is. Tommy T a big surprise. Kemi remains the interesting and intriguing leftfield proposition. I've just compared Mordor to a crap fake burger. And Truss is Harriet Jones.
Truss is coming across like an Armando Iannucci concept that was rejected for being too unrealistic.
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Blair actually had vision.
Can someone please tell me what Rishi’s vision is?
Might be difficult to assess betting odds here as to how a reasonably normal, intelligent person might react to the candidates, vs a) Tory MPs, b) Tory party members. E.g. the latter, when offered a choice between Ken Clarke and Ian Duncan Smith, chose Smith.... (not exactly electoral dynamite).
Indeed, the most relevant comments on here are from Tory members or Tory MPs as we are the only ones who get to vote for them
You must however accept you are not the spokesperson for 160,000 members- you are one voice amongst that group
And for most of that group at the moment the polling is clear, it is anyone but Rishi. I am not even particularly anti Sunak
Rishi Tom Kemi Penny Truss and a near terminal performance
Completely agree. I expected Sunak to be good and he is. Tommy T a big surprise. Kemi remains the interesting and intriguing leftfield proposition. I've just compared Mordor to a crap fake burger. And Truss is Harriet Jones.
Truss is coming across like an Armando Iannucci concept that was rejected for being too unrealistic.
Stepford wife with designed in obsolescence to persuade punters to upgrade the hardware
Can the 22 committe change the rules so that Graham Brady draws a revolver after each vote is announced and shoots the loser? Because jesus fucking wept this performance.
Yeah. Or, better still, get the nominations in and gather together the '22.
"Sunak?" Yeah ok "Truss" Really? Jesus "Chisti" Who is he? "Braverman" Oh fuck off she isn't running
Sunak is I’m afraid to say the only candidate that looks like they could cope with the PM job . On taxes he’s coming across very well and Truss looks clueless .
Tory members want tax cuts, they are the deciding electorate he so far has failed to reach
How Tory members vote will depend on how much they want to win the next election.
If they are determined to win they'll pick a grown up who doesn't give them sweeties straight away.
If they no longer care about winning they'll pick a different grown up who has a joined up plan to pay for tax cuts by slashing the size of the state in the Thatcherite manner. Which will no longer work as the debate has moved on since 1987, and besides there aren't millions of council houses left with which to bribe people.
If they want to take the cakeist approach then they'll pick another charlatan who promises them sweeties now, to be paid for by magic beans or something, and keep their fingers crossed that the wider electorate are too dense to see through the conceit.
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
I was just thinking the same, he’s like Blair. And Blair won elections.
Might be difficult to assess betting odds here as to how a reasonably normal, intelligent person might react to the candidates, vs a) Tory MPs, b) Tory party members. E.g. the latter, when offered a choice between Ken Clarke and Ian Duncan Smith, chose Smith.... (not exactly electoral dynamite).
Indeed, the most relevant comments on here are from Tory members or Tory MPs as we are the only ones who get to vote for them
You must however accept you are not the spokesperson for 160,000 members- you are one voice amongst that group
Anyone who disagrees with HY is not a True Tory and can be ignored.
Might be difficult to assess betting odds here as to how a reasonably normal, intelligent person might react to the candidates, vs a) Tory MPs, b) Tory party members. E.g. the latter, when offered a choice between Ken Clarke and Ian Duncan Smith, chose Smith.... (not exactly electoral dynamite).
Indeed, the most relevant comments on here are from Tory members or Tory MPs as we are the only ones who get to vote for them
"Fuck the voters"
The voters didn't get a say when Labour elected Gordon Brown PM either. We are a parliamentary democracy, we don't have an elected President
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Blair actually had vision.
Can someone please tell me what Rishi’s vision is?
I wonder what he makes of this graph.
Blair had vision? What was it? I remember an enormous number of cliches - 'Britain forward not back, education, education, education, tough on crime tough on the causes of crime' - but I couldn't tell you what they meant.
Just as Thatcher's 'vision' was very often her making stuff up as she needed to, with varying degrees of success.
What they both were - for good or for ill - was decisive, and they had a willingness to listen to others if they knew their stuff and decide accordingly.
Does Sunak have that? If I'm honest I don't know. But what I can say is that apart possibly from Tugendhat and even more tenuously Badenoch the others are showing they don't have it.
Truss keeps saying she gets things done but I cannot recall anything she has got done
Brexit? Cheese and pork markets? She’s finished her campaign tonight too
Oh, to be a fly on the wall in the ERG Whatsapp group.
Brexit Brexit Brexit The left are after us! Brexit! Maybe we should call Sunak woke? Brexit!!! Dirty traitors, not like us who vote against our governments What can we do? Anti democratic if we lose ...Brexit.
Instead of flouncing George Osborne should have played the long game, he'd be running rings around all of them and he'd probably give Kemi No. 11, he shouldn't have taken being sacked by May so personally.
Might be difficult to assess betting odds here as to how a reasonably normal, intelligent person might react to the candidates, vs a) Tory MPs, b) Tory party members. E.g. the latter, when offered a choice between Ken Clarke and Ian Duncan Smith, chose Smith.... (not exactly electoral dynamite).
Indeed, the most relevant comments on here are from Tory members or Tory MPs as we are the only ones who get to vote for them
"Fuck the voters"
The voters didn't get a say when Labour elected Gordon Brown PM either. We are a parliamentary democracy, we don't have an elected President
Might be difficult to assess betting odds here as to how a reasonably normal, intelligent person might react to the candidates, vs a) Tory MPs, b) Tory party members. E.g. the latter, when offered a choice between Ken Clarke and Ian Duncan Smith, chose Smith.... (not exactly electoral dynamite).
Indeed, the most relevant comments on here are from Tory members or Tory MPs as we are the only ones who get to vote for them
"Fuck the voters"
The voters didn't get a say when Labour elected Gordon Brown PM either. We are a parliamentary democracy, we don't have an elected President
Instead of flouncing George Osborne should have played the long game, he'd be running rings around all of them and he'd probably give Kemi No. 11, he shouldn't have taken being sacked by May so personally.
Osborne would probably have failed to beat Corbyn and a resurgent Farage
Instead of flouncing George Osborne should have played the long game, he'd be running rings around all of them and he'd probably give Kemi No. 11, he shouldn't have taken being sacked by May so personally.
He also probably thought May would win an election handsomely so he'd have been out of the inner circle for another 5 years.
Easy win for Sunak - because he is the only one who sounds at all realistic. Not saying he’ll win (I suspect he won’t) but at least he is willing to avoid Panglossianism.
Biggest loser given her position in the betting is Penny.
I agree Mike. But she is still clear favourite. Surprising.
The comments by Moylan and Frost about her work ethic and ability have really undermined her credibility with me. The only recent candidate for UK PM where I remember similar concerns being raised, (although broader and much more serious concerns), was/is called Boris.
Sunak is I’m afraid to say the only candidate that looks like they could cope with the PM job . On taxes he’s coming across very well and Truss looks clueless .
Tory members want tax cuts, they are the deciding electorate he so far has failed to reach
How Tory members vote will depend on how much they want to win the next election.
If they are determined to win they'll pick a grown up who doesn't give them sweeties straight away.
If they no longer care about winning they'll pick a different grown up who has a joined up plan to pay for tax cuts by slashing the size of the state in the Thatcherite manner. Which will no longer work as the debate has moved on since 1987, and besides there aren't millions of council houses left with which to bribe people.
If they want to take the cakeist approach then they'll pick another charlatan who promises them sweeties now, to be paid for by magic beans or something, and keep their fingers crossed that the wider electorate are too dense to see through the conceit.
Tory members have won 4 general elections in a row, they want tax cuts now not power for the sake of it, especially now Starmer has replaced Corbyn
This is just wonderful. Sunak is clearly the best of them, but that really doesn’t say much - and if he wins the ERG and the Johnson faithful will go nuclear. Maybe they should start the whole contest again!
Might be difficult to assess betting odds here as to how a reasonably normal, intelligent person might react to the candidates, vs a) Tory MPs, b) Tory party members. E.g. the latter, when offered a choice between Ken Clarke and Ian Duncan Smith, chose Smith.... (not exactly electoral dynamite).
Indeed, the most relevant comments on here are from Tory members or Tory MPs as we are the only ones who get to vote for them
"Fuck the voters"
The voters didn't get a say when Labour elected Gordon Brown PM either. We are a parliamentary democracy, we don't have an elected President
You utterly miss the point. You can select Kareem Abdul-Jabar as lader if you want. But then you have to win the election. And if people keep looking a Mr AJ and instead of seeing an airline pilot as billed see a basketball player, you lose.
So it isn't about what you lot want. Its about what your party's voters want.
And this is your problem. You endlessly quote polls. Whilst saying that people who aren't you - especially Tory voters - can literally be ignored.
Instead of flouncing George Osborne should have played the long game, he'd be running rings around all of them and he'd probably give Kemi No. 11, he shouldn't have taken being sacked by May so personally.
Osborne would probably have failed to beat Corbyn and a resurgent Farage
No, I mean he should have stuck around and waited out Theresa May, then made a play for a big role under Boris then laid in wait for Boris to implode. He'd be far and away the favourite today.
Might be difficult to assess betting odds here as to how a reasonably normal, intelligent person might react to the candidates, vs a) Tory MPs, b) Tory party members. E.g. the latter, when offered a choice between Ken Clarke and Ian Duncan Smith, chose Smith.... (not exactly electoral dynamite).
Indeed, the most relevant comments on here are from Tory members or Tory MPs as we are the only ones who get to vote for them
"Fuck the voters"
The voters didn't get a say when Labour elected Gordon Brown PM either. We are a parliamentary democracy, we don't have an elected President
You utterly miss the point. You can select Kareem Abdul-Jabar as lader if you want. But then you have to win the election. And if people keep looking a Mr AJ and instead of seeing an airline pilot as billed see a basketball player, you lose.
So it isn't about what you lot want. Its about what your party's voters want.
And this is your problem. You endlessly quote polls. Whilst saying that people who aren't you - especially Tory voters - can literally be ignored.
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Instead of flouncing George Osborne should have played the long game, he'd be running rings around all of them and he'd probably give Kemi No. 11, he shouldn't have taken being sacked by May so personally.
That Osborne preferred being a lackey to Russian oligarchs to being a backbencher shows that he wasn't fit to have any influence on running the country.
Instead of flouncing George Osborne should have played the long game, he'd be running rings around all of them and he'd probably give Kemi No. 11, he shouldn't have taken being sacked by May so personally.
But he has earned a gazillion pounds in the private sector.
Might be difficult to assess betting odds here as to how a reasonably normal, intelligent person might react to the candidates, vs a) Tory MPs, b) Tory party members. E.g. the latter, when offered a choice between Ken Clarke and Ian Duncan Smith, chose Smith.... (not exactly electoral dynamite).
Indeed, the most relevant comments on here are from Tory members or Tory MPs as we are the only ones who get to vote for them
"Fuck the voters"
The voters didn't get a say when Labour elected Gordon Brown PM either. We are a parliamentary democracy, we don't have an elected President
I agree with that point, but I think there is also a point that while the decision of who will be Conservative Party Leader (and as such PM) is up thte Conservative members, and they shouldn't simply delegate their opinion to that of a wider public opinion poll, it might be advisable for them to at least factor in the public appeal of the candidates.
After all, you want to win the next election, you've talked about trying to keep hold of the red wall, who are not all Tory members, so you accept that the new leader needs to appeal beyond the membership.
So you're own arguments would be that the ordinary voters should be considered to some degree when the members make their choice - you too may have argued against some candidates on the basis they would lose an election, and what is that but saying listen to ordinary voters?
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Blair actually had vision.
Can someone please tell me what Rishi’s vision is?
I wonder what he makes of this graph.
Blair had vision? What was it? I remember an enormous number of cliches - 'Britain forward not back, education, education, education, tough on crime tough on the causes of crime' - but I couldn't tell you what they meant.
Just as Thatcher's 'vision' was very often her making stuff up as she needed to, with varying degrees of success.
What they both were - for good or for ill - was decisive, and they had a willingness to listen to others if they knew their stuff and decide accordingly.
Does Sunak have that? If I'm honest I don't know. But what I can say is that apart possibly from Tugendhat and even more tenuously Badenoch the others are showing they don't have it.
That’s nonsense. There was a clear Blairism “Giddens/third way-ism/reducing child poverty/education reform/devolution” etc, just as there was clear Thatcherism “Hayek/monetarism/privatisation/labour deregulation/home owning democracy”
This is just wonderful. Sunak is clearly the best of them, but that really doesn’t say much - and if he wins the ERG and the Johnson faithful will go nuclear. Maybe they should start the whole contest again!
Instead of flouncing George Osborne should have played the long game, he'd be running rings around all of them and he'd probably give Kemi No. 11, he shouldn't have taken being sacked by May so personally.
Osborne would probably have failed to beat Corbyn and a resurgent Farage
No, I mean he should have stuck around and waited out Theresa May, then made a play for a big role under Boris then laid in wait for Boris to implode. He'd be far and away the favourite today.
Osborne would be more unelectable than all of them except Truss
Comments
I quite like it, but I doubt I am typical.
That's fucking stupid. Lay.
Then people finally get to sample the product and say "this is shit".
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Downs shot.
(Kemi quite clearly going to endorse Rishi)
Sorry to be brutal. But that is the game.
But
he hasn't started
talking in
staccato phrases of
up to three
words.
Like Blair.
Can someone please tell me what Rishi’s vision is?
I wonder what he makes of this graph.
Sunak
.
.
.
.
Tugs
Kemi
Penny
.
.
.
Fizzy Lizzy
If she doesn't she has no chance.
"Sunak?" Yeah ok
"Truss" Really? Jesus
"Chisti" Who is he?
"Braverman" Oh fuck off she isn't running
Eliminate them based on order of credulity.
If they are determined to win they'll pick a grown up who doesn't give them sweeties straight away.
If they no longer care about winning they'll pick a different grown up who has a joined up plan to pay for tax cuts by slashing the size of the state in the Thatcherite manner. Which will no longer work as the debate has moved on since 1987, and besides there aren't millions of council houses left with which to bribe people.
If they want to take the cakeist approach then they'll pick another charlatan who promises them sweeties now, to be paid for by magic beans or something, and keep their fingers crossed that the wider electorate are too dense to see through the conceit.
Much of a muchness the lot of them I reckon.
Just as Thatcher's 'vision' was very often her making stuff up as she needed to, with varying degrees of success.
What they both were - for good or for ill - was decisive, and they had a willingness to listen to others if they knew their stuff and decide accordingly.
Does Sunak have that? If I'm honest I don't know. But what I can say is that apart possibly from Tugendhat and even more tenuously Badenoch the others are showing they don't have it.
The left are after us!
Brexit!
Maybe we should call Sunak woke?
Brexit!!!
Dirty traitors, not like us who vote against our governments
What can we do?
Anti democratic if we lose
...Brexit.
2.06 Penny Mordaunt 49%
4.2 Rishi Sunak 24%
4.3 Liz Truss 23%
34 Tom Tugendhat
36 Kemi Badenoch
130 Dominic Raab
RISHI BACK TO SECOND FAVOURITE.
She's not shit. I just don't think she's PM material.
There are three of these debates. This is merely the first
Truss is toast but beyond that.... who knows. Rishi's polish shows here, he is is Winchester and Megabank and ex-COTE
But.... Which one will beat Starmer?
It is Mordaunt v Sunak, I reckon, and the Tory members will decide, not us
The comments by Moylan and Frost about her work ethic and ability have really undermined her credibility with me. The only recent candidate for UK PM where I remember similar concerns being raised, (although broader and much more serious concerns), was/is called Boris.
That was lucky for him.
Truss is done
So it isn't about what you lot want. Its about what your party's voters want.
And this is your problem. You endlessly quote polls. Whilst saying that people who aren't you - especially Tory voters - can literally be ignored.
But thought that Mordaunt might have something. Instead, turns out she's Penny dreadful.
Have personally always been allergic to "pretty boys" in politics; all looks, no substance.
Is Penny Mordaunt just a "pretty girl" politico?
One thing that occurs: for her, Badenoch and Sunak, this is likely NOT the last act in their political careers.
Not sure same is true for Truss or Tugenhat.
She has an NHS dentist? That surprises me, and I have to say I'm sceptical. I have to go private and I'm on a lot less than she is.
This debate changed my mind.
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1547873650899951617?s=20&t=pZZNMt7u0iOQt3hBpLyCSg
After all, you want to win the next election, you've talked about trying to keep hold of the red wall, who are not all Tory members, so you accept that the new leader needs to appeal beyond the membership.
So you're own arguments would be that the ordinary voters should be considered to some degree when the members make their choice - you too may have argued against some candidates on the basis they would lose an election, and what is that but saying listen to ordinary voters?
Seems more like a cabinet minister than a PM. Possibly cause she is.
There was a clear Blairism “Giddens/third way-ism/reducing child poverty/education reform/devolution” etc, just as there was clear Thatcherism “Hayek/monetarism/privatisation/labour deregulation/home owning democracy”
I broke my tooth 10 months ago. Had to go private. £300 for a 20 minute procedure, done next day
Kemi B can't afford that?
This may be a pointer for future debates.