Not when the cancer referral targets are being missed by miles and people phoning 999 for an ambulance due to a heart attack are waiting five hours for it to arrive.
There are three of these debates. This is merely the first
Truss is toast but beyond that.... who knows. Rishi's polish shows here, he is is Winchester and Megabank and ex-COTE
But.... Which one will beat Starmer?
It is Mordaunt v Sunak, I reckon, and the Tory members will decide, not us
The Penny problem is that rather uniquely she has been called out on the stand for lying. And its on the dog whistle non-issue of chicks with dicks. She can try and talk around it, but they will keep coming back for it.
Biggest loser given her position in the betting is Penny.
I agree Mike. But she is still clear favourite. Surprising.
The comments by Moylan and Frost about her work ethic and ability have really undermined her credibility with me. The only recent candidate for UK PM where I remember similar concerns being raised, (although broader and much more serious concerns), was/is called Boris.
I can't believe that Frost is merely reporting in a disinterested manner given every other comment he's made in public life.
Might be difficult to assess betting odds here as to how a reasonably normal, intelligent person might react to the candidates, vs a) Tory MPs, b) Tory party members. E.g. the latter, when offered a choice between Ken Clarke and Ian Duncan Smith, chose Smith.... (not exactly electoral dynamite).
Indeed, the most relevant comments on here are from Tory members or Tory MPs as we are the only ones who get to vote for them
"Fuck the voters"
The voters didn't get a say when Labour elected Gordon Brown PM either. We are a parliamentary democracy, we don't have an elected President
You utterly miss the point. You can select Kareem Abdul-Jabar as lader if you want. But then you have to win the election. And if people keep looking a Mr AJ and instead of seeing an airline pilot as billed see a basketball player, you lose.
So it isn't about what you lot want. Its about what your party's voters want.
And this is your problem. You endlessly quote polls. Whilst saying that people who aren't you - especially Tory voters - can literally be ignored.
Instead of flouncing George Osborne should have played the long game, he'd be running rings around all of them and he'd probably give Kemi No. 11, he shouldn't have taken being sacked by May so personally.
But he has earned a gazillion pounds in the private sector.
Next editor of the standard will be a certain B Johnson - you heard it here first.
Not when the cancer referral targets are being missed by miles and people phoning 999 for an ambulance due to a heart attack are waiting five hours for it to arrive.
This is the line to run on really. Bet a lot of elderly Tory members are checking their pacemakers and thinking "please don't blow now...".
I broke my tooth 10 months ago. Had to go private. £300 for a 20 minute procedure, done next day
Kemi B can't afford that?
Guardian headline - "Scum Tory government minister hates the NHS and uses private healthcare" or something along those lines. Though, undoubtedly she has the money. Also iirc when she arrived in the UK she worked in a McDonald's to pay her own way.
I don’t think repeatedly saying she’s “terrified” of things makes her look reliable.
Kemi’s vague efficiency savings not a great answer on the NHS. Mordaunt always has a specific policy idea, some of which are sensible, but lots of small policy ideas doesn’t make you come across well for a big picture job.
Sunak does the Blair thing of always remembering to thank the questioner. It seems simple, but it works.
Sunak is I’m afraid to say the only candidate that looks like they could cope with the PM job . On taxes he’s coming across very well and Truss looks clueless .
Tory members want tax cuts, they are the deciding electorate he so far has failed to reach
How Tory members vote will depend on how much they want to win the next election.
If they are determined to win they'll pick a grown up who doesn't give them sweeties straight away.
If they no longer care about winning they'll pick a different grown up who has a joined up plan to pay for tax cuts by slashing the size of the state in the Thatcherite manner. Which will no longer work as the debate has moved on since 1987, and besides there aren't millions of council houses left with which to bribe people.
If they want to take the cakeist approach then they'll pick another charlatan who promises them sweeties now, to be paid for by magic beans or something, and keep their fingers crossed that the wider electorate are too dense to see through the conceit.
Tory members have won 4 general elections in a row, they want tax cuts now not power for the sake of it, especially now Starmer has replaced Corbyn
So you are happy to lose the election - and then your hold over taxation?
Daft sod. But not as daft as whomever flagged his post.
Call me irrational, but I haven't been able to stand Truss since the photo(s) of her smirking in a tank were published. Liz baby, we Homo Sapiens use tanks for killing each other. YOU DON'T LOOK CUTE IN ONE.
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Blair actually had vision.
Can someone please tell me what Rishi’s vision is?
I wonder what he makes of this graph.
Blair had vision? What was it? I remember an enormous number of cliches - 'Britain forward not back, education, education, education, tough on crime tough on the causes of crime' - but I couldn't tell you what they meant.
Just as Thatcher's 'vision' was very often her making stuff up as she needed to, with varying degrees of success.
What they both were - for good or for ill - was decisive, and they had a willingness to listen to others if they knew their stuff and decide accordingly.
Does Sunak have that? If I'm honest I don't know. But what I can say is that apart possibly from Tugendhat and even more tenuously Badenoch the others are showing they don't have it.
That’s nonsense. There was a clear Blairism “Giddens/third way-ism/reducing child poverty/education reform/devolution” etc, just as there was clear Thatcherism “Hayek/monetarism/privatisation/labour deregulation/home owning democracy”
No, I'm right and you're reading too much into those statements. They were essentially cliches, not detailed policies. What happened was that when in government they created systems and then read them back into their promises, rather niftily in both cases. If you think that was a coherent 'vision' then I fear you have a rather rosy tinted view of both of them.
PMs do make it up as they go along, or as Lord Blake put it 'problems come up and are solved.'
I rather think you are letting your dislike for Sunak cause you to be negative in every way, including overselling some of the points where he might actually be strong.
Tugendhat absolutely cringeworthy there on the NHS.
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Blair actually had vision.
Can someone please tell me what Rishi’s vision is?
I wonder what he makes of this graph.
Blair had vision? What was it? I remember an enormous number of cliches - 'Britain forward not back, education, education, education, tough on crime tough on the causes of crime' - but I couldn't tell you what they meant.
Just as Thatcher's 'vision' was very often her making stuff up as she needed to, with varying degrees of success.
What they both were - for good or for ill - was decisive, and they had a willingness to listen to others if they knew their stuff and decide accordingly.
Does Sunak have that? If I'm honest I don't know. But what I can say is that apart possibly from Tugendhat and even more tenuously Badenoch the others are showing they don't have it.
People don't recognize utterly hollow smarm when they see it. Sunak is Blair, and you know what was most contemptible about Blair? Not Iraq in general but specifically his bragging that he agreed to it with the words "I'm in." Because that would sound so fucking cool in the biopic.
Someone change truss's Duracells. She's done. Lucky to be in the next cabinet
Biggest loser given her position in the betting is Penny.
Probably inevitable because she had nothing to gain and a huge amount to lose. She was popular by being an unknown quantity that people could project their hopes onto. Inevitable that if she doesn't smash it out of the park that bubble would pop.
Don't think PM4MP needed a home run. But she at least needed to get to second base.
Perhaps the Fall of Truss is so dramatic it overshadows Mordaunt's under-performance?
Will be VERY interesting to see how the candidates AND their handlers react and adapt to tonight's realities over the next 46 hours leading up to Sunday's shindig.
Easy win for Sunak - because he is the only one who sounds at all realistic. Not saying he’ll win (I suspect he won’t) but at least he is willing to avoid Panglossianism.
Oh, candide.
I think a problem is, as the weeks tick by, they will forget just how frustrated they were with Boris, remember him winning, delivering with boosterism. If Sunak replaces him, there will be Boris fans, ministers in his cabinet, government, parliamentary party, party and voters out there, who will just hate him for unfairly doing Boris in and replacing him. With personality clashes, grudges, the whole Boris and his cheerleaders waiting for things to be no better without him, that in itself could sink the Conservatives election chances.
This is just wonderful. Sunak is clearly the best of them, but that really doesn’t say much - and if he wins the ERG and the Johnson faithful will go nuclear. Maybe they should start the whole contest again!
Can someone - anyone - just say "the NHS is an OK health service but let's stop wanking on about it like it is Jesus, you craven craven idiots"
Absolutely!
And some of it is crap, and inefficient
And some of the staff are crap, and incompetent
And some are overpaid, and just throwing endless money at it doesn’t change these things
I suspect I wouldn’t win a General Election with that pitch…
Its a giant machine and that means getting it to deliver what people need is very hard. But it is also a crippled machine, spaffing vast sums of public money into internal competition and marketisation. We could spend the money better...
Can someone - anyone - just say "the NHS is an OK health service but let's stop wanking on about it like it is Jesus, you craven craven idiots"
It's not OK - it's too often poor and terrible in some ways. In a study I saw recently it came tenth out of eleven health systems surveyed. And in the treatment of many cancers, for instance, it is a disgrace.
Still, it seems well enough supplied with diversity officers paid three or more times as much as nurses, so at least those with tumours are treated by people of a variety of backgrounds, which is of course what they are worried about.
But with all his faults, Blair was a much better PM than any recent offering - and I say that as somebody who unusually always despised and distrusted him.
Blair actually had vision.
Can someone please tell me what Rishi’s vision is?
I wonder what he makes of this graph.
Blair had vision? What was it? I remember an enormous number of cliches - 'Britain forward not back, education, education, education, tough on crime tough on the causes of crime' - but I couldn't tell you what they meant.
Just as Thatcher's 'vision' was very often her making stuff up as she needed to, with varying degrees of success.
What they both were - for good or for ill - was decisive, and they had a willingness to listen to others if they knew their stuff and decide accordingly.
Does Sunak have that? If I'm honest I don't know. But what I can say is that apart possibly from Tugendhat and even more tenuously Badenoch the others are showing they don't have it.
People don't recognize utterly hollow smarm when they see it. Sunak is Blair, and you know what was most contemptible about Blair? Not Iraq in general but specifically his bragging that he agreed to it with the words "I'm in." Because that would sound so fucking cool in the biopic.
Someone change truss's Duracells. She's done. Lucky to be in the next cabinet
Oh I do. I saw it in Blair.
But I prefer it to batshit crazy, total inexperience or mindless incompetence.
I don't think she's done badly enough tonight to lose many votes - but she needs to do more in future debates.
She is already clearly miles ahead of Sunak with members, she just needed to avoid a shocker and beat Truss to help ensure her place in the last 2 which she largely did
I’ve finally realized my issue with Sunak. He reminds me of Blair too much. On the one hand a serial winner, on the old hand a slimy supercilious turd.
I suspect Kemi has Covid, with all that coughing, BTW
That would be a supremely awkward way to end the contest. All five candidates miss the count because they're laid up with coof.
For some of them not being able to take part in debates and media pieces might assist their campaign.
"Ms Truss, could you explain your stance on the economy?" *EUHURHGUR-HACK-EUGHEU-EUGH-HACK* "Thank you, that was a much better answer than on Friday night"
Tugendhat suggests I should get in touch with my MP to say who I want in the final 2. I mean, I could Tom, but I don’t think Keir Starmer gets much input into that decision…
What a weird number. Why not make it 360 while she's at it?
She doesn't want to go in circles.
Didn't she once say that she was named after a cruiser which was the first to make a U-turn inside her own length? Right now she's performing like the Fourth Rate of her surname.
Tugendhat suggests I should get in touch with my MP to say who I want in the final 2. I mean, I could Tom, but I don’t think Keir Starmer gets much input into that decision…
Keir Starmer will be praying for Mordaunt or Truss on tonight's showing. But I don't think he'll be too alarmed by any of them.
Rishi looks very likely to be in the final 2. So Tug can't make it.
2nd place goes to either Penny or one of Truss/Kemi. Truss hasn't been good and would struggle to beat Rishi or Penny. So maybe the "right" will shift towards Kemi and squeeze out Truss.
Biggest loser given her position in the betting is Penny.
Probably inevitable because she had nothing to gain and a huge amount to lose. She was popular by being an unknown quantity that people could project their hopes onto. Inevitable that if she doesn't smash it out of the park that bubble would pop.
Don't think PM4MP needed a home run. But she at least needed to get to second base.
Perhaps the Fall of Truss is so dramatic it overshadows Mordaunt's under-performance?
Will be VERY interesting to see how the candidates AND their handlers react and adapt to tonight's realities over the next 46 hours leading up to Sunday's shindig.
Poe: *The Fall of the House of Truss*
And travellers now within that valley, Through the red-litten windows, see Vast forms that move fantastically To a discordant melody; While, like a rapid ghastly river, Through the pale door, A hideous throng rush out forever, And laugh — but smile no more.
Tugendhat suggests I should get in touch with my MP to say who I want in the final 2. I mean, I could Tom, but I don’t think Keir Starmer gets much input into that decision…
Mine would say Corbyn and McDonnell.
Seriously though. It shows they aren't speaking to the country.
None of the final statements are very good. Sunak’s poorest moment. Mordaunt and Truss somewhat better than their debate performances. Does this matter? Is it about getting a good 15 second clip for the news shows and social media?
I don't think she's done badly enough tonight to lose many votes - but she needs to do more in future debates.
She is already clearly miles ahead of Sunak with members, she just needs to avoid a shocker and beat Truss to help ensure her place in the last 2
You're basing this all on one poll. I'm not sure that's a good basis of evidence.
Besides which, even if said poll was a fair indicator of current opinion, it assumes that the Tory membership all pick a stance on any given topic and then refuse to budge a nanometre, regardless of any argument that may subsequently be presented, or any event that may subsequently occur...
Rish annoying me with his hand movements. He's been studying old Tony Blair performances on YouTube hasn't he?
Didn't watch it, but first clip I saw it was he has taken the "greatest hits" of Blair and Clegg....the hand movements and "thanks Sharon that was an excellent question", which Clegg got loads of credit for during the debates...
Comments
Remember who is the owner….
I don’t think repeatedly saying she’s “terrified” of things makes her look reliable.
Kemi’s vague efficiency savings not a great answer on the NHS. Mordaunt always has a specific policy idea, some of which are sensible, but lots of small policy ideas doesn’t make you come across well for a big picture job.
Sunak does the Blair thing of always remembering to thank the questioner. It seems simple, but it works.
Daft sod. But not as daft as whomever flagged his post.
I’m a seer.
I didn’t advise Penny to bring it up. Honest.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/30/truss-urges-nato-allies-to-block-russias-nord-stream-2-gas-pipeline
Completely wrong for today's modern Tory party.
PMs do make it up as they go along, or as Lord Blake put it 'problems come up and are solved.'
I rather think you are letting your dislike for Sunak cause you to be negative in every way, including overselling some of the points where he might actually be strong.
Tugendhat absolutely cringeworthy there on the NHS.
And some of it is crap, and inefficient
And some of the staff are crap, and incompetent
And some are overpaid, and just throwing endless money at it doesn’t change these things
I suspect I wouldn’t win a General Election with that pitch…
Someone change truss's Duracells. She's done. Lucky to be in the next cabinet
Perhaps the Fall of Truss is so dramatic it overshadows Mordaunt's under-performance?
Will be VERY interesting to see how the candidates AND their handlers react and adapt to tonight's realities over the next 46 hours leading up to Sunday's shindig.
I don't think she's done badly enough tonight to lose many votes - but she needs to do more in future debates.
I think a problem is, as the weeks tick by, they will forget just how frustrated they were with Boris, remember him winning, delivering with boosterism. If Sunak replaces him, there will be Boris fans, ministers in his cabinet, government, parliamentary party, party and voters out there, who will just hate him for unfairly doing Boris in and replacing him. With personality clashes, grudges, the whole Boris and his cheerleaders waiting for things to be no better without him, that in itself could sink the Conservatives election chances.
But as @leon says - hang on in there until Sunday night as few people are going to be watching on a warm Friday night.
The problem is, I just can’t see Penny improving sufficiently in two days to stop Rishi.
He looks like the serious choice.
I suspect Kemi has Covid, with all that coughing, BTW
But many people resent having to pay for something they've been promised should be 'free'.
Grr.
People attacking their own Government's legacy and saying they want to continue those policies.
Change this election is not.
Still, it seems well enough supplied with diversity officers paid three or more times as much as nurses, so at least those with tumours are treated by people of a variety of backgrounds, which is of course what they are worried about.
*help*
On the other hand, Starmer is worse than several of them
*yay*
But I prefer it to batshit crazy, total inexperience or mindless incompetence.
Now why would that be?
Good on her, I say.
What a clever man.
*EUHURHGUR-HACK-EUGHEU-EUGH-HACK*
"Thank you, that was a much better answer than on Friday night"
Number one is the web, she's a muppet
What kind of innovations? What do you even mean by innovations?
Who is we in this context?
None used in the NHS at all? Really?
Other than that, fine comment.
2nd place goes to either Penny or one of Truss/Kemi. Truss hasn't been good and would struggle to beat Rishi or Penny. So maybe the "right" will shift towards Kemi and squeeze out Truss.
And travellers now within that valley,
Through the red-litten windows, see
Vast forms that move fantastically
To a discordant melody;
While, like a rapid ghastly river,
Through the pale door,
A hideous throng rush out forever,
And laugh — but smile no more.
"daddy, should I be worried about the environment? Is the world doomed?"
"Yes, but it's OK. I'm going to buy exoplanet 33XBi"
Seriously though. It shows they aren't speaking to the country.
Truss has gone from 3.7 to 4.5.
Sunak 4.8 to 3.65.
Ran out of time on a (poor) closing statement.
Rishi's pretty good but a weak conclusion.
No doubt.
Truss was beyond woeful.
I can't remember when a front runner has imploded thanks to their own lack of comms skills like we have seen tonight.
Problem is it isn't new or unique now.