I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
And bombing Syria on the same side as ISIS, and the opposite to Putin wouldn't have had any "dark consequences" whatsoever?
This has all been gone over many times before. We would not have been bombing on the same side as ISIS; there were, for a short time, many sides. It was not just ISIS and Assad. (In fact, there still are several sides, including the Kurds who are still getting it in the neck from Assad, Russia and Turkey.)
But Assad used chemical weapons against civilian targets. This was known and well documented. We screeched and howled, but did nothing.
Then Salisbury.
We did everything but tell Putin that we would not have any serious reaction to his adventures. If we had stood up strongly for our values in Syria, this may not have happened.
Yes it has been over many times. We were right not to intervene in the Syrian Civil War. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
I don't mind the disagreement about that issue, but I do get my knickers in a twist over the Ed Miliband aspect of it, as my recolleciton is that he was not against intervention under any circumstances, just that the various diferent votes all failed, and that he subsequently tried to take credit as it was his intention all along there be no action. I apologise to him if I hav emis recalled that.
My recollection (possibly faulty as I haven't read up on it recently) is that he and Cameron had a long meeting, in which a package of measures was agreed. Then, just before the vote, Miliband reneged.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
What is happening in Ukraine is already working - if you are in NATO.
Putin & Co. will have no doubt that when it comes to NATO countries, NATO will fight. The associate countries (Finland, Sweden) will also be defended.
With the poor performance of his military, it is quite clear that he can't take on NATO in conventional war.
A small point - if the Czechs had fought in 1938, we would have been unable to help them in any physical way at all. The French could have invaded Germany in support, but the UK wouldn't even have been able to get weapons to them, probably.
In the end, none of us know what the best course of action is. Any number of actions thought at present to be good could turn out to be bad when looking at them retrospectively because events will unfold in a random way.
To my mind, the only constant is that we must support the Ukrainians in every way possible short of risking nuclear war. There is vast public support for refugees. But more fundamental is the fact that they need help to fight the war. If they fail to defeat this Russian enterprise, then Europe, and the prospect of liberal democracy, is ruined. It is likely to take many years of war, but there is no other realistic positive option other than for Ukraine to succeed.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life. But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
Particularly as we're all going to be bored shitless of it in a couple of weeks and will move on to something else.
That will happen .Lets be honest how many had actually forgot that Russian invaded Georgia only a few years ago? Out of their minds - me certainly. All the angst on here about the Taleban taking over and now never mentioned only a few months later. This is the problem with stuff -we get overexcited them bored . In this case the overexcited bit is the risk given the potential for escalation
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
And bombing Syria on the same side as ISIS, and the opposite to Putin wouldn't have had any "dark consequences" whatsoever?
This has all been gone over many times before. We would not have been bombing on the same side as ISIS; there were, for a short time, many sides. It was not just ISIS and Assad. (In fact, there still are several sides, including the Kurds who are still getting it in the neck from Assad, Russia and Turkey.)
But Assad used chemical weapons against civilian targets. This was known and well documented. We screeched and howled, but did nothing.
Then Salisbury.
We did everything but tell Putin that we would not have any serious reaction to his adventures. If we had stood up strongly for our values in Syria, this may not have happened.
Yes it has been over many times. We were right not to intervene in the Syrian Civil War. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
I don't mind the disagreement about that issue, but I do get my knickers in a twist over the Ed Miliband aspect of it, as my recolleciton is that he was not against intervention under any circumstances, just that the various diferent votes all failed, and that he subsequently tried to take credit as it was his intention all along there be no action. I apologise to him if I hav emis recalled that.
My recollection (possibly faulty as I haven't read up on it recently) is that he and Cameron had a long meeting, in which a package of measures was agreed. Then, just before the vote, Miliband reneged.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate
You mean the 6 point drivel plan
I suppose at least he didn't carve into a monolith. That's when you know your plans have gone too far.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life. But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
OKC we are in violent agreement and I take your point on them being businesses but I would count what they take from business as salary not the turnover etc.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so sh ecould make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
I'm reading a history of the gunfight in the OK Corral at the moment! Very odd visions of you in chaps with your horse patrolling the Ayrshire roads and keeping an eye open for Yoon cowboys and carpetbaggers.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate
You mean the 6 point drivel plan
I suppose at least he didn't carve into a monolith. That's when you know your plans have gone too far.
That still has to be one of the most embarassing political moments , up there with Salmond's rock not that far behind.
The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.
Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life. But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
OKC we are in violent agreement and I take your point on them being businesses but I would count what they take from business as salary not the turnover etc.
Thanks Malc. However, my days of being violent are over. I'm the white-haired old chap who says thanks when the pub door is opened for me and a nice young lady offers me a seat. And the barmaid offers to carry my drink to where I intend to sit.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.
Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so sh ecould make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
I'm reading a history of the gunfight in the OK Corral at the moment! Very odd visions of you in chaps with your horse patrolling the Ayrshire roads and keeping an eye open for Yoon cowboys and carpetbaggers.
Morning Carnyx, made me laugh, what is the name of the book. Blue sky and sunshine in Ayrshire yet again, hoping this is not an early summer.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
Putin's Office -
Thunderball briefing -
Putin as a No.2? Many Ukrainians would surely agree, yet use far stronger language.
The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.
Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
Not while Tories are running the show, be smoke and mirrors at best, they have plenty tax havens outside London as well you know.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Alternatively, fly a few Ukrainian aircraft / drones to attack railways lines / bridges inside Russia making the logistics situation even worse for the Russians.
They have supposedly (usual caveats apply) done that, with drones attacking fuel trains.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so sh ecould make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
I'm reading a history of the gunfight in the OK Corral at the moment! Very odd visions of you in chaps with your horse patrolling the Ayrshire roads and keeping an eye open for Yoon cowboys and carpetbaggers.
Malc Cogburn scared all them no-good varmints off his territory ages ago.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life. But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
OKC we are in violent agreement and I take your point on them being businesses but I would count what they take from business as salary not the turnover etc.
Thanks Malc. However, my days of being violent are over. I'm the white-haired old chap who says thanks when the pub door is opened for me and a nice young lady offers me a seat. And the barmaid offers to carry my drink to where I intend to sit.
I am heading that way myself OKC, still a bit of life left in the old dog yet though.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so sh ecould make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
I'm reading a history of the gunfight in the OK Corral at the moment! Very odd visions of you in chaps with your horse patrolling the Ayrshire roads and keeping an eye open for Yoon cowboys and carpetbaggers.
Morning Carnyx, made me laugh, what is the name of the book. Blue sky and sunshine in Ayrshire yet again, hoping this is not an early summer.
In the end, none of us know what the best course of action is. Any number of actions thought at present to be good could turn out to be bad when looking at them retrospectively because events will unfold in a random way.
To my mind, the only constant is that we must support the Ukrainians in every way possible short of risking nuclear war. There is vast public support for refugees. But more fundamental is the fact that they need help to fight the war. If they fail to defeat this Russian enterprise, then Europe, and the prospect of liberal democracy, is ruined. It is likely to take many years of war, but there is no other realistic positive option other than for Ukraine to succeed.
Ukraine has already not succeeded. The question is what degree of non success can be tolerated.
Can anyone say they know the various actions and associated body counts in Western Ukraine for the past ten years.
It may not actually be far away but it might as well be. We need to wait for a standstill which will be at the time of Putin's choosing and then see where we are.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Straight from the Kremlin
Or from their bots/useful idiots all over the world. What gives me hope is that on this issue the propaganda war is being lost by them.
Amazing how many people confidently propose ‘a face saver for Putin’ as a sustainable way out of this, when it would simply embolden him and reward his brutal tactics here.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate
You mean the 6 point drivel plan
I suppose at least he didn't carve into a monolith. That's when you know your plans have gone too far.
That still has to be one of the most embarassing political moments , up there with Salmond's rock not that far behind.
I'm so glad it happened though. Everything about it was hilarious - the size, the blandness of the words, the dull font, the approval process showing how many must have signed off on it.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life. But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
OKC we are in violent agreement and I take your point on them being businesses but I would count what they take from business as salary not the turnover etc.
Thanks Malc. However, my days of being violent are over. I'm the white-haired old chap who says thanks when the pub door is opened for me and a nice young lady offers me a seat. And the barmaid offers to carry my drink to where I intend to sit.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
Putin's Office -
Thunderball briefing -
Putin as a No.2? Many Ukrainians would surely agree, yet use far stronger language.
Number Two was competent in Austin Powers. Putin would dream of being Number Two....
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
Putin's Office -
Thunderball briefing -
The spectre of his troops getting smershed must hang heavy over him....
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
And bombing Syria on the same side as ISIS, and the opposite to Putin wouldn't have had any "dark consequences" whatsoever?
This has all been gone over many times before. We would not have been bombing on the same side as ISIS; there were, for a short time, many sides. It was not just ISIS and Assad. (In fact, there still are several sides, including the Kurds who are still getting it in the neck from Assad, Russia and Turkey.)
But Assad used chemical weapons against civilian targets. This was known and well documented. We screeched and howled, but did nothing.
Then Salisbury.
We did everything but tell Putin that we would not have any serious reaction to his adventures. If we had stood up strongly for our values in Syria, this may not have happened.
Yes it has been over many times. We were right not to intervene in the Syrian Civil War. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
I don't mind the disagreement about that issue, but I do get my knickers in a twist over the Ed Miliband aspect of it, as my recolleciton is that he was not against intervention under any circumstances, just that the various diferent votes all failed, and that he subsequently tried to take credit as it was his intention all along there be no action. I apologise to him if I hav emis recalled that.
My recollection (possibly faulty as I haven't read up on it recently) is that he and Cameron had a long meeting, in which a package of measures was agreed. Then, just before the vote, Miliband reneged.
Indeed, but Labour had their own motion supporting military action, albeit with more stringent conditions to permit it, which would have been unlikely - so Ed M posing as a hero, principled against any intervention in the years afterwards doesn't ring true for me unless his motion was phony.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.
I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.
The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.
Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
I wonder if the Russian invasion is providing political cover for what many might have wanted to do, but were previously unable to co-ordinate with each other when faced against a well funded bunch of lawyers funded by a bunch of kleptocrats who had bought off their own private politicians?
Right now it’s practically impossible for any politician to put their head over the parapet in defense of their Russian backers, so the field is clear for their opponents to go on the offensive, with all the moral justification you could possibly wish for.
The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.
Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.
Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Johnson will be doing his utmost to gain attention, I'm afraid. He won't be satisfied with being supportive from the bench. I can't help thinking back to 2016 and the spectacle of John Terry, who had not played in the final, trotting out in full Chelsea strip to grab the CL trophy and get in all the photos. It's not an exact comparison, not even that close, but neither is it completely inappropriate and ridiculous.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
Putin's Office -
Thunderball briefing -
The spectre of his troops getting smershed must hang heavy over him....
It's Largo's all round until someone has to pay the bill.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life. But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
OKC we are in violent agreement and I take your point on them being businesses but I would count what they take from business as salary not the turnover etc.
Thanks Malc. However, my days of being violent are over. I'm the white-haired old chap who says thanks when the pub door is opened for me and a nice young lady offers me a seat. And the barmaid offers to carry my drink to where I intend to sit.
Sounds like bliss. Enjoy every moment.
Thanks; however the arthritis somewhat detracts from it!
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.
I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.
The latter I could live with.
It is nice to travel for sure. In reality any split will take a long time given how intertwined we are and there is little chance it will be acrimonious apart from the usual idiots. Border will only be an issue if we are in EU which is very likely but given they have to solve Ireland then there will be a solution ready. For sure independence will open up opportunies for Scotland, just need to hope we get decent politicians to take advantage, signs so far are not hopeful. Current lot are at least as bad as Johnson and his bunch of losers and that is giving them the benefit of the doubt.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate
You mean the 6 point drivel plan
I suppose at least he didn't carve into a monolith. That's when you know your plans have gone too far.
That still has to be one of the most embarassing political moments , up there with Salmond's rock not that far behind.
I'm so glad it happened though. Everything about it was hilarious - the size, the blandness of the words, the dull font, the approval process showing how many must have signed off on it.
It certainly highlighted how thick and stupid most MP's are.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
No, as I said, it's up to Ukraine to decide what deal (if any) they'll accept, but virtually all wars end in a settlement. Would a settlement involve permanent occupation of Kherson? Very unlikely. Should we reject a settlement if Ukraine wants to agree one? Surely not. Unless we choose to launch WW3, we are effectively bystanders here, and we don't have the right to dictate terms.
Ukrainian intel says Russians are deploying Tochka-U missile systems against Kyiv. And it sounds bizarre. I was sure Russians deem Tochkas obsolete and they aimed at retiring them all long time ago. Are they already running out of modern Kalibrs and Iskanders or what?
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
No, as I said, it's up to Ukraine to decide what deal (if any) they'll accept, but virtually all wars end in a settlement. Would a settlement involve permanent occupation of Kherson? Very unlikely. Should we reject a settlement if Ukraine wants to agree one? Surely not. Unless we choose to launch WW3, we are effectively bystanders here, and we don't have the right to dictate terms.
Financially we do. Surely the Russians will soon be on their knees wanting the sanctions removed. What price are we willing to extract from them for that?
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
No, as I said, it's up to Ukraine to decide what deal (if any) they'll accept, but virtually all wars end in a settlement. Would a settlement involve permanent occupation of Kherson? Very unlikely. Should we reject a settlement if Ukraine wants to agree one? Surely not. Unless we choose to launch WW3, we are effectively bystanders here, and we don't have the right to dictate terms.
Financially we do. Surely the Russians will soon be on their knees wanting the sanctions removed. What price are we willing to extract from them for that?
The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.
Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.
Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
I was never intensely relaxed about him saying that. There was a need to combat the view that Labour were hairshirted sourpusses who couldn't abide the idea of people having a nice meal out now and again, but it wasn't necessary to bend that far on the rhetoric.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
No, as I said, it's up to Ukraine to decide what deal (if any) they'll accept, but virtually all wars end in a settlement. Would a settlement involve permanent occupation of Kherson? Very unlikely. Should we reject a settlement if Ukraine wants to agree one? Surely not. Unless we choose to launch WW3, we are effectively bystanders here, and we don't have the right to dictate terms.
They don't all end via negotiations though do they? If this continues as badly for the Russians as it looks to be so far then they will have to extricate themselves which almost certainly means Putin is gone. If that convoy is stuck in a hostile steppe in winter effectively under siege, running out of food and fuel, soldiers dying from starvation and hypothermia then something big is going to happen. Wholescale surrender and collapse of Russian army in Ukraine is a possibility.
Ukrainian intel says Russians are deploying Tochka-U missile systems against Kyiv. And it sounds bizarre. I was sure Russians deem Tochkas obsolete and they aimed at retiring them all long time ago. Are they already running out of modern Kalibrs and Iskanders or what?
Enda Kelly seemed to think so, he was discussing this with the British government in late 2016, until he was replaced by Varadkar and his much more antagonistic approach.
This old saw used to get wheeled out quite regularly during the dark days 2018-9. It turned out to be yet another David Davis lie.
There were serious discussions on setting up the system, until the change of Irish government and the EU decided to use the Irish border as a hard line in their negotiations, rather than something which history should tell us required a somewhat more nuanced approach.
In the end, none of us know what the best course of action is. Any number of actions thought at present to be good could turn out to be bad when looking at them retrospectively because events will unfold in a random way.
To my mind, the only constant is that we must support the Ukrainians in every way possible short of risking nuclear war. There is vast public support for refugees. But more fundamental is the fact that they need help to fight the war. If they fail to defeat this Russian enterprise, then Europe, and the prospect of liberal democracy, is ruined. It is likely to take many years of war, but there is no other realistic positive option other than for Ukraine to succeed.
Ukraine has already not succeeded. The question is what degree of non success can be tolerated.
Can anyone say they know the various actions and associated body counts in Western Ukraine for the past ten years.
It may not actually be far away but it might as well be. We need to wait for a standstill which will be at the time of Putin's choosing and then see where we are.
I am not a military expert unlike some others who post on here (who I note have largely exited the discussion, perhaps wisely). But surely it depends on how success is defined. Ukraine can still win, in that the long term aims of Russia in Ukraine (ie setting up a Belarus style client state) can be made impossible by way of an expensive civil war. That is what I would define as success at this point. Obviously I am hoping for a more decisive victory on the battlefield, an end to the war and the collapse of Putin's regime; but as I said previously, I am not investing to much energy in such hopes.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.
I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.
The latter I could live with.
The current fudge (not to be confused with currant fudge) on the Northern Ireland border isn’t working very well. A fudged Scottish border would be more complicated.
We’ve also learnt, with the Brexit negotiations more broadly, that divorce negotiations tend to always move to harder splits.
So I wouldn’t bet on soft and slow in the case of Scotland.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Alternatively, fly a few Ukrainian aircraft / drones to attack railways lines / bridges inside Russia making the logistics situation even worse for the Russians.
err no
You think that Russia might declare war on them if they did that?
The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.
Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.
Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
I was never intensely relaxed about him saying that. There was a need to combat the view that Labour were hairshirted sourpusses who couldn't abide the idea of people having a nice meal out now and again, but it wasn't necessary to bend that far on the rhetoric.
Tories: Labour is the party of envy, of jealousy, of levelling down, of spending other people's money, of class hatred, of not letting people enjoy their well-earned riches.
Same Tories: how dare Mandelson say that he is 'intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich'! Shows that Labour isn't the party of ordinary hard-working people at all.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Alternatively, fly a few Ukrainian aircraft / drones to attack railways lines / bridges inside Russia making the logistics situation even worse for the Russians.
err no
You think that Russia might declare war on them if they did that?
Wasn't there a video published that claimed to show a Ukrainian drone strike on a Russian munitions train, inside Russia?
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.
I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.
The latter I could live with.
The current fudge (not to be confused with currant fudge) on the Northern Ireland border isn’t working very well. A fudged Scottish border would be more complicated.
We’ve also learnt, with the Brexit negotiations more broadly, that divorce negotiations tend to always move to harder splits.
So I wouldn’t bet on soft and slow in the case of Scotland.
If he’s talking about Russia, this might be optimistic.
Surprising honesty from Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska on the unraveling economic crisis: "This is going to be like 1998 crisis but three times worse and will last 3 years" https://twitter.com/ABarbashin/status/1500417296967290881
What @state_go_away seems to forget that this isn’t some squabble between two nations where there are many shades of grey, this is one nation aggressively invading another with zero provocation. This isn’t a problem that calls for mediation, this is a problem that requires a “stop fucking doing that and go away” solution.
Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
Ukrainian intel says Russians are deploying Tochka-U missile systems against Kyiv. And it sounds bizarre. I was sure Russians deem Tochkas obsolete and they aimed at retiring them all long time ago. Are they already running out of modern Kalibrs and Iskanders or what?
The USSR never used to throw things away - that's how they ended up with enough equipment for all the Category C divisions.
Some of the switches in the Sea Harrier cockpit were Bakelite jobs left over from Sea Fury production parsimoniously used by Hawker/BAE to save a few quid.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Johnson will be doing his utmost to gain attention, I'm afraid. He won't be satisfied with being supportive from the bench. I can't help thinking back to 2016 and the spectacle of John Terry, who had not played in the final, trotting out in full Chelsea strip to grab the CL trophy and get in all the photos. It's not an exact comparison, not even that close, but neither is it completely inappropriate and ridiculous.
Comparing Johnson to Terry. It works in so many ways... and a Bridge looms large in both men's story.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Alternatively, fly a few Ukrainian aircraft / drones to attack railways lines / bridges inside Russia making the logistics situation even worse for the Russians.
err no
You think that Russia might declare war on them if they did that?
Wasn't there a video published that claimed to show a Ukrainian drone strike on a Russian munitions train, inside Russia?
Ukrainian Drone Hit Fuel Train Deep Behind Russian Lines
not guaranteed to be true, and I suppose behind Russian lines could still mean in Ukraine. Hard to see what red line Ukraine would be crossing in attacking in Russia, anyway.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.
I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.
The latter I could live with.
The current fudge (not to be confused with currant fudge) on the Northern Ireland border isn’t working very well. A fudged Scottish border would be more complicated.
We’ve also learnt, with the Brexit negotiations more broadly, that divorce negotiations tend to always move to harder splits.
So I wouldn’t bet on soft and slow in the case of Scotland.
The Czechs and Slovaks managed it.
I'm guessing starting from positions of approximate equivalence helped. One much bigger element seething with centuries of entitlement and saying it holds all the cards might make things trickier.
Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
If he’s talking about Russia, this might be optimistic.
Surprising honesty from Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska on the unraveling economic crisis: "This is going to be like 1998 crisis but three times worse and will last 3 years" https://twitter.com/ABarbashin/status/1500417296967290881
But if they end the war and make major concessions we can help them.
Ukrainian intel says Russians are deploying Tochka-U missile systems against Kyiv. And it sounds bizarre. I was sure Russians deem Tochkas obsolete and they aimed at retiring them all long time ago. Are they already running out of modern Kalibrs and Iskanders or what?
The USSR never used to throw things away - that's how they ended up with enough equipment for all the Category C divisions.
Some of the switches in the Sea Harrier cockpit were Bakelite jobs left over from Sea Fury production parsimoniously used by Hawker/BAE to save a few quid.
Morgan should have bought them as a job lot and offered them as a trim option along with the roundel and shark mouth. IDS would have felt his first wooden wonder for a while.
Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
The Royal Bank of Scotland didn't quite fit that model with GRG.
Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
Always worth bringing this up when anyone suggests traders in FS have any special talent.
Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.
btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.
Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.
btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.
So, as long as there is lawyer hovering over the big red button we should be fine?
btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.
It’s more that we’d be downing their aircraft and smashing up missiles inside Russia, and they might take offence and escalate a tad.
Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.
You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.
Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.
There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.
One problem with a no-fly-zone is imposing the no flying bit. What if the Russians decide to fly? Well, then you have to shoot them down.
Another problem is that the Russians would, undoubtedly, use their long range SAMs against the NATO aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone. So either you ignore that and take loses of NATO aircraft, or you destroy Russian military systems and people. In Russia.
Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
The Royal Bank of Scotland didn't quite fit that model with GRG.
Nor Bob Diamond and his pals who fixed the Libor rates.
Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.
You don't have any option but to take Trump on aggressively. You know he's going to come for you like a rabid honey badger.....
btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.
So, as long as there is lawyer hovering over the big red button we should be fine?
Looks a straightforward provision to me, and does what it is intended to do, i.e. prevent member states from provoking fights in order to trigger art 5.
btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.
It’s more that we’d be downing their aircraft and smashing up missiles inside Russia, and they might take offence and escalate a tad.
Sure, there's stacks of good reasons not to do it, but the art 5 argument isn't one of them, and I keep hearing it advanced by ostensibly knowledgeable peeps on the wireless
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Johnson will be doing his utmost to gain attention, I'm afraid. He won't be satisfied with being supportive from the bench. I can't help thinking back to 2016 and the spectacle of John Terry, who had not played in the final, trotting out in full Chelsea strip to grab the CL trophy and get in all the photos. It's not an exact comparison, not even that close, but neither is it completely inappropriate and ridiculous.
Comparing Johnson to Terry. It works in so many ways... and a Bridge looms large in both men's story.
Just listening to Pippa Crerar on Sky she was surprisingly complimentary on Boris's efforts especially on arming and training Ukraine and that Ukraine’s President is in touch with him virtually daily and he is ramping up financial sanctions which have been delayed due to legal problems
She seemed to be of the general opinion this has given him an opportunity to promote global britain
For Pippa to be saying this is remarkable in view of her role in pursuing partygate and I doubt a FPN, if he does get one, is going to see Boris leave the stage
Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.
I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.
The latter I could live with.
The current fudge (not to be confused with currant fudge) on the Northern Ireland border isn’t working very well. A fudged Scottish border would be more complicated.
We’ve also learnt, with the Brexit negotiations more broadly, that divorce negotiations tend to always move to harder splits.
So I wouldn’t bet on soft and slow in the case of Scotland.
The Czechs and Slovaks managed it.
Soft, yes. Slow, no. It all happened rather quickly.
Managed? Depends what you mean. Czechia and Slovakia are different countries, but there was an economic impact and a narrow majority of the populations today think it was a mistake.
Czechoslovakia was not in the EU and the two successor states joined the EU at the same time. NI and Brexit may be a better example because Scotland is clear about its desire to join the EU. The fundamental problem in NI has always been that you want Rep. of Ireland and NI to have a soft border, GB and NI to have a soft border, Rep. of Ireland and the rest of the EU to have a soft border, but GB and EU require a hard border (at least while the Brexiteers are in power). The same applies to an independent Scotland joining the EU. Had Czechia been intent on joining the EU and Slovakia wanted to stay out, the Velvet Divorce would’ve been much more complicated.
Scotland and rUK both in the EU: easier. Scotland and rUK both out of the EU: easier. But that’s not where we are in terms of stated goals. Brexiteers ignored the NI border problem and were wrong to do so. Scottish nationalists who ignore the same problem make the same mistake.
The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.
Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.
Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
I was never intensely relaxed about him saying that. There was a need to combat the view that Labour were hairshirted sourpusses who couldn't abide the idea of people having a nice meal out now and again, but it wasn't necessary to bend that far on the rhetoric.
Tories: Labour is the party of envy, of jealousy, of levelling down, of spending other people's money, of class hatred, of not letting people enjoy their well-earned riches.
Same Tories: how dare Mandelson say that he is 'intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich'! Shows that Labour isn't the party of ordinary hard-working people at all.
Yep, the old 'Politics of Envy Class Warrior or Champagne Socialist Hypocrite' dichotomy. And if you somehow avoid either you're 'dull'. There is just no type of Labour that quite passes muster. It's amazing we ever win any elections at all really.
Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.
I am old enough to remember when people decried NATO's WWIII plan as - hold the Fulda Gap for three days, then blow up the world.
The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.
Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.
Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
I was never intensely relaxed about him saying that. There was a need to combat the view that Labour were hairshirted sourpusses who couldn't abide the idea of people having a nice meal out now and again, but it wasn't necessary to bend that far on the rhetoric.
I'd say that the fundamental issue is between 'earned' and 'unearned' money.
Now getting lots of money by earning it - whether that's through employment or having a business or investment choices - isn't easy and almost always involves a lot of hard work and intrinsic ability.
But unearned money can be different if it is acquired through dishonest, criminal, malignant means.
Now I don't know how many people are willing to engage in dishonest, criminal or malignant methods to acquire unearned money.
But I'm pretty sure that there are proportionally more of such people in politics and parts of the financial sector - and both with much more scope to do so.
Think about Mandelson's full quote - "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich as long as they pay their taxes" and exchange 'filthy rich' for 'dirty money'.
Doesn't that sum up British government mentality on this issue ?
Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.
You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.
Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.
There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
Ah, so if job security makes the difference I’ll do a deal with you. Most public sector employees would love to get rid of the 20% who are crap at their jobs, but this Government has shown no interest in doing so (every public sector reform since 2010 has been excellent at making good people leave and doing nothing to crap people). If we introduce such a system, can public sector workers get FS pay?
Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.
You don't have any option but to take Trump on aggressively. You know he's going to come for you like a rabid honey badger.....
Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.
You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.
Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.
There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
Ah, so if job security makes the difference I’ll do a deal with you. Most public sector employees would love to get rid of the 20% who are crap at their jobs, but this Government has shown no interest in doing so (every public sector reform since 2010 has been excellent at making good people leave and doing nothing to crap people). If we introduce such a system, can public sector workers get FS pay?
There are only 20% of people at the DfE that are crap? That seems very much on the low side to me...
Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.
You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.
Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.
There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
Hats off to you HY. When you talk nonsense you do it with great authority.
Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.
I am old enough to remember when people decried NATO's WWIII plan as - hold the Fulda Gap for three days, then blow up the world.
Yes, the positions are reversed from 1985. The red army isn’t going to surge over the border, instead it’s going to slowly limp into Poland or Estonia before being routed, and then the risk is the Russians go nuclear.
Comments
Russia welcomed the vote not to intervene.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23892783
Putin & Co. will have no doubt that when it comes to NATO countries, NATO will fight. The associate countries (Finland, Sweden) will also be defended.
With the poor performance of his military, it is quite clear that he can't take on NATO in conventional war.
A small point - if the Czechs had fought in 1938, we would have been unable to help them in any physical way at all. The French could have invaded Germany in support, but the UK wouldn't even have been able to get weapons to them, probably.
To my mind, the only constant is that we must support the Ukrainians in every way possible short of risking nuclear war. There is vast public support for refugees. But more fundamental is the fact that they need help to fight the war. If they fail to defeat this Russian enterprise, then Europe, and the prospect of liberal democracy, is ruined. It is likely to take many years of war, but there is no other realistic positive option other than for Ukraine to succeed.
Catchy name.
But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
Whilst not religious in any way of all the recent Popes I remember he is by far the best .
People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
Thunderball briefing -
Malc Cogburn scared all them no-good varmints off his territory ages ago.
Not finished yet so no final opinion, but good solid history by the look of it.
Sunny today here too with a frosty start.
Can anyone say they know the various actions and associated body counts in Western Ukraine for the past ten years.
It may not actually be far away but it might as well be. We need to wait for a standstill which will be at the time of Putin's choosing and then see where we are.
"Putin tells Erdogan: Kyiv must cease fighting and fulfill all of Moscow’s demands in order for the Russian invasion of Ukraine to stop."
Lol.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23879579
I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.
The latter I could live with.
Right now it’s practically impossible for any politician to put their head over the parapet in defense of their Russian backers, so the field is clear for their opponents to go on the offensive, with all the moral justification you could possibly wish for.
Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
For sure independence will open up opportunies for Scotland, just need to hope we get decent politicians to take advantage, signs so far are not hopeful. Current lot are at least as bad as Johnson and his bunch of losers and that is giving them the benefit of the doubt.
@IAPonomarenko·4h
Ukrainian intel says Russians are deploying Tochka-U missile systems against Kyiv.
And it sounds bizarre. I was sure Russians deem Tochkas obsolete and they aimed at retiring them all long time ago.
Are they already running out of modern Kalibrs and Iskanders or what?
https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1500391169443958785
Certainly their high-end weapons have been conspicuous by their relative absence in this war.
We’ve also learnt, with the Brexit negotiations more broadly, that divorce negotiations tend to always move to harder splits.
So I wouldn’t bet on soft and slow in the case of Scotland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5gvnN9PplY
Same Tories: how dare Mandelson say that he is 'intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich'! Shows that Labour isn't the party of ordinary hard-working people at all.
Surprising honesty from Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska on the unraveling economic crisis: "This is going to be like 1998 crisis but three times worse and will last 3 years"
https://twitter.com/ABarbashin/status/1500417296967290881
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdcYi8yJ5gs&ab_channel=ExoticCabi
not guaranteed to be true, and I suppose behind Russian lines could still mean in Ukraine. Hard to see what red line Ukraine would be crossing in attacking in Russia, anyway.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickferri/2012/12/20/any-monkey-can-beat-the-market/?sh=11b388da630a
You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.
Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.
There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
Another problem is that the Russians would, undoubtedly, use their long range SAMs against the NATO aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone. So either you ignore that and take loses of NATO aircraft, or you destroy Russian military systems and people. In Russia.
Both of those = full on war vs Russia.
She seemed to be of the general opinion this has given him an opportunity to promote global britain
For Pippa to be saying this is remarkable in view of her role in pursuing partygate and I doubt a FPN, if he does get one, is going to see Boris leave the stage
His recently reiterated praise for fat boy Kim won’t help, either.
https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1500322723020656644
Managed? Depends what you mean. Czechia and Slovakia are different countries, but there was an economic impact and a narrow majority of the populations today think it was a mistake.
Czechoslovakia was not in the EU and the two successor states joined the EU at the same time. NI and Brexit may be a better example because Scotland is clear about its desire to join the EU. The fundamental problem in NI has always been that you want Rep. of Ireland and NI to have a soft border, GB and NI to have a soft border, Rep. of Ireland and the rest of the EU to have a soft border, but GB and EU require a hard border (at least while the Brexiteers are in power). The same applies to an independent Scotland joining the EU. Had Czechia been intent on joining the EU and Slovakia wanted to stay out, the Velvet Divorce would’ve been much more complicated.
Scotland and rUK both in the EU: easier. Scotland and rUK both out of the EU: easier. But that’s not where we are in terms of stated goals. Brexiteers ignored the NI border problem and were wrong to do so. Scottish nationalists who ignore the same problem make the same mistake.
Now getting lots of money by earning it - whether that's through employment or having a business or investment choices - isn't easy and almost always involves a lot of hard work and intrinsic ability.
But unearned money can be different if it is acquired through dishonest, criminal, malignant means.
Now I don't know how many people are willing to engage in dishonest, criminal or malignant methods to acquire unearned money.
But I'm pretty sure that there are proportionally more of such people in politics and parts of the financial sector - and both with much more scope to do so.
Think about Mandelson's full quote - "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich as long as they pay their taxes" and exchange 'filthy rich' for 'dirty money'.
Doesn't that sum up British government mentality on this issue ?
PS yes mum texted me! to say stop complaining about the Tories Boris has a plan to win it 🤦♀️