Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.
We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
It is only a matter of when , not if. The old codgers who are last remaining spineless unionists are popping their clogs fast. Anyone under 50 has only lived under the cosh and so when a decent politician is running the country and forces a referendum, it will be independence. Can you tell me why the Ukranian's do not want to be Russian's again.
Zero chance of Sturgeon forcing a referendum
Tell me something I don't know, did you actually read my post, I said "DECENT" politician.
You support notorious pest Salmond, what do you know about decency?
F*** off you odious piece of dog excrement. Conversing with obvious uneducated cretin's is not on my schedule today. Go read the verdicts you mean minded scrotebag.
It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.
Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.
Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.
Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
That depends on the nature of the links.
One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.
We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.
They may not all be bad guys.
Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?
Just maybe we could aim there?
Indeed. But my point stands.
Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
That was not my point. It is the assumption that everyone in a group *has* to be guilty.
You construct this windmill, and then tilt at it, once a day on average. To say that Carrie Johnson is odious is not sexism. To say that some men falsely identify as transwomen for sexual predation/sporting success reasons is not to be transphobic. And so on.
Its not important but i dont think Carrie Johnson is odious! a strange thing to say . Out of her depth when she tries to influence things ,certainly but that is the fault of her husband and others for allowing her to do that
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.
Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.
Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.
Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
That depends on the nature of the links.
One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.
We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.
They may not all be bad guys.
Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?
Just maybe we could aim there?
Indeed. But my point stands.
Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
That was not my point. It is the assumption that everyone in a group *has* to be guilty.
You construct this windmill, and then tilt at it, once a day on average. To say that Carrie Johnson is odious is not sexism. To say that some men falsely identify as transwomen for sexual predation/sporting success reasons is not to be transphobic. And so on.
"Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"
Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?
First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)
Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.
I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation. Would the West have been so united but for COVID? It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend. So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it. Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
Biden had practically given Putin carte blanche for 'an incursion', so why he didn't concentrate all his forces on a smaller land grab to secure the Crimea water supply and a land corridor to the breakaway regions, but instead went completely tonto is completely beyond me.
That was just an articulation of the obvious - that the response would depend on the nature and scale of the aggression.
But, yes, good question. I don't know what's driving Putin with this. I suppose I'll take the truth to be there in that rambling address. He thinks Russia is some innately magnificent and hard done by nation that has been shrunk and disrespected since it lost the Cold War and he now seeks to make it great again.
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
I'm not quite sure taking a by-election with a 27% turnout as indicative of the whole country is wise though I appreciate you may derive some comfort from the Con-Lab swing being just 4.5%.
I didn't go around after North Shropshire claiming the 34.2% from Conservative to LD would be indicative of the next election (and that was from just a 46% turnout).
Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.
We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
It is only a matter of when , not if. The old codgers who are last remaining spineless unionists are popping their clogs fast. Anyone under 50 has only lived under the cosh and so when a decent politician is running the country and forces a referendum, it will be independence. Can you tell me why the Ukranian's do not want to be Russian's again.
Zero chance of Sturgeon forcing a referendum
Tell me something I don't know, did you actually read my post, I said "DECENT" politician.
You support notorious pest Salmond, what do you know about decency?
F*** off you odious piece of dog excrement. Conversing with obvious uneducated cretin's is not on my schedule today. Go read the verdicts you mean minded scrotebag.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Ignore Malcolm,he is fixated and (obviosuly jealous as well) about money . Despite the fact he is a gambler ? And once recently told the forum he was wealthy himself
Is the single group who has befouled their reputation the most the literal Kremlinologists? Even now we’re told that Putin has over dosed on plastic surgery, has Parkinson’s, is senile or has a wee touch of cancer, and is implementing a long planned strategy, has gone mad or is just very, very angry. His armed forces are either on the verge of mutiny & dissolution or relentlessly applying pressure to the defenceless, thin-shelled nut of Ukraine.
The parameters currently are between the Wizard of Oz, ie a wizened old man hiding behind the curtain, or a dead eyed psychopath with the world’s fate in his hands. Of course both extremes and everything in between has control of thousands of nuclear warheads; in the circumstances a knowledgable appraisal of the real Putin would be most welcome.
The man to ask is George W Bush. He sussed him on their very first meeting.
"I found him very straightforward and trustworthy… I was able to get a sense of his soul."
That 'soul' again.
In retrospect the big warning sign should have been Putin refusing to give up power when his two terms as President ended in 2008.
It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.
Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.
Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.
Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
That depends on the nature of the links.
One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.
We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.
They may not all be bad guys.
Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?
Just maybe we could aim there?
Indeed. But my point stands.
Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
That was not my point. It is the assumption that everyone in a group *has* to be guilty.
You construct this windmill, and then tilt at it, once a day on average. To say that Carrie Johnson is odious is not sexism. To say that some men falsely identify as transwomen for sexual predation/sporting success reasons is not to be transphobic. And so on.
Its not important but i dont think Carrie Johnson is odious! a strange thing to say . Out of her depth when she tries to influence things ,certainly but that is the fault of her husband and others for allowing her to do that
How do you know if and by how much she is trying to "influence things".
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
I think you're really clutching at straws here.
The West Midlands is amongst the most favourable of tory areas and Erdington was the most Leave seat in the region: 63% against 37%.
If in a time of war Labour STILL had a 4.5% swing I'd suggest you may be fooling yourself, but not many others.
It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.
Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.
Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.
Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
That depends on the nature of the links.
One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.
We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.
They may not all be bad guys.
Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?
Just maybe we could aim there?
Indeed. But my point stands.
Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
That was not my point. It is the assumption that everyone in a group *has* to be guilty.
You construct this windmill, and then tilt at it, once a day on average. To say that Carrie Johnson is odious is not sexism. To say that some men falsely identify as transwomen for sexual predation/sporting success reasons is not to be transphobic. And so on.
Its not important but i dont think Carrie Johnson is odious! a strange thing to say . Out of her depth when she tries to influence things ,certainly but that is the fault of her husband and others for allowing her to do that
How do you know if and by how much she is trying to "influence things".
well the obvious one was the dogs thing in Afghanistan. A nice sentiment if you are nowhere near the levers of government. Even Radio 4 got wrapped up in the emotion before quietly retreating away when the absurdity of it became clear. Frankly if Carrie Johnson is that scheming and cunning to play 4d chess with the government then its them who needs sacking not her cast as some kind of powerful dark sorceress
It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.
Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.
Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.
Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
That depends on the nature of the links.
One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.
We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.
They may not all be bad guys.
Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?
Just maybe we could aim there?
Indeed. But my point stands.
Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
That was not my point. It is the assumption that everyone in a group *has* to be guilty.
You construct this windmill, and then tilt at it, once a day on average. To say that Carrie Johnson is odious is not sexism. To say that some men falsely identify as transwomen for sexual predation/sporting success reasons is not to be transphobic. And so on.
????
You're imagining things.
You have made both those claims
And you are doing it now:
"But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia."
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
VVP's objective is not to end up with a prosperous, independent Ukraine in the EU and/or NATO. It certainly looks like he's going to get that. A second Belarus would have been ideal but he'll settle for a failed state full of starving wretches.
"Failed state" is a very strange way of describing it. If someone was beaten up in the street by a gang of thugs, would you really say that shows them up as a failure?
But semantics aside, the question is how Putin could make this "failure" permanent. By indefinite military occupation and rule of terror?
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
VVP's objective is not to end up with a prosperous, independent Ukraine in the EU and/or NATO. It certainly looks like he's going to get that. A second Belarus would have been ideal but he'll settle for a failed state full of starving wretches.
That might be the description of Russia after this.
It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.
Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.
Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.
Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
That depends on the nature of the links.
One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.
We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.
They may not all be bad guys.
Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?
Just maybe we could aim there?
Indeed. But my point stands.
Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
That was not my point. It is the assumption that everyone in a group *has* to be guilty.
You construct this windmill, and then tilt at it, once a day on average. To say that Carrie Johnson is odious is not sexism. To say that some men falsely identify as transwomen for sexual predation/sporting success reasons is not to be transphobic. And so on.
????
You're imagining things.
You have made both those claims
And you are doing it now:
"But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia."
I stand by that.
But in your intemperate post, you said that I do it 'once a day on average'.
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
It is a good piece.
I am not sure your *interpretation of Putin versus the Soviet Union works too well. The fear in the 1980s for nuclear Armageddon was greater than it is today. That is not to say we shouldn't be more fearful than we are.
I am not sure a Politburo of nutters is much less frightening than one absolute header.
With hindsight Russia needed a post-Soviet Marshall Plan.
Something like that, yes. There was nothing in the 'bones' of Russia that meant freeing up the economy from the dead hand of communism had to lead to the wild west then oligarchal kleptocracy under a KGB hood. Such a great chance missed. Let's hope there's a take 2.
Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you
Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.
This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?
How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
The Ukranians rate British assistance highly, and their opinion is the one that matters.
It's OK for Boris Johnson to be corrupt because the UK is supplying Ukraine with valuable military support is quite a take!
We all know that he's corrupt and a charlatan. But, when it comes to the Ukraine, the government has done a good job.
The government has done a good job on some fronts. On others it has done very poorly.
Tolerance of corruption leads to more corruption. That's how it becomes endemic. And once it is endemic democracy effectively ceases to function.
To an extent it is how low we set the expectation bar.
Newly minted military strategic genius Johnson when confronted by an attractive Ukrainian lady journalist stuck to the NATO line. Good boy! We should expect nothing less of a NATO Leader. Our earlier fear might have been gibbering FS Johnson would have immediately agreed to a NFZ on misinterpreting her tears as bedroom eyes.
Likewise, do we expect the Johnson Government to do the right thing over Russian donors to the Conservative Party? Our expectations are not high, so anything they do invoke seems like a big deal
New 6 point plan from Muscly today. Telling the world they must "redouble their efforts". Also a haircut.
"Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"
Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?
First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)
Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.
I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation. Would the West have been so united but for COVID? It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend. So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it. Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
Biden had practically given Putin carte blanche for 'an incursion', so why he didn't concentrate all his forces on a smaller land grab to secure the Crimea water supply and a land corridor to the breakaway regions, but instead went completely tonto is completely beyond me.
On housing the homeless on a weekend. No, that didn't happen, in any country.
What happened was that most countries gave their street people hotel rooms.
Nearly everyone living on the street has issues that mean that their living rough is a symptom of their problems. Not the cause. So, quite rapidly, the street people returned to the streets.
This is important to think of - it shows the limitations of stamp-my-foor-and-make-it-so government.
*Reducing* the sleeping rough issue would take years of sustained effort, with relatively little to show for it. You will never eliminate it, either.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you
Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.
This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?
How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
The Ukranians rate British assistance highly, and their opinion is the one that matters.
It's OK for Boris Johnson to be corrupt because the UK is supplying Ukraine with valuable military support is quite a take!
We all know that he's corrupt and a charlatan. But, when it comes to the Ukraine, the government has done a good job.
Not so good on actual support for refugees, apparently.
It is a difficult reverse ferret:
2015: refugees f*** off! 2016: East Europeans f*** off! 2019: East Europeans f*** off again! 2021: refugees f*** off again!
2022: East European refugees: ????
You're missing out the 2,500 Hong Kongers that we are welcoming every week. Don't they count?
Not refugees, British overseas passport holders. Albeit ones that were denied residence rights by Maggie in 1981.
They are absolutely refugees: "people who have been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster". They are obviously fleeing Communist tyranny in their homeland. But they don't fit into your narrative that the government has been consistently hostile to refugees, so you ignore them.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.
We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
It is only a matter of when , not if. The old codgers who are last remaining spineless unionists are popping their clogs fast. Anyone under 50 has only lived under the cosh and so when a decent politician is running the country and forces a referendum, it will be independence. Can you tell me why the Ukranian's do not want to be Russian's again.
Zero chance of Sturgeon forcing a referendum
Tell me something I don't know, did you actually read my post, I said "DECENT" politician.
You support notorious pest Salmond, what do you know about decency?
F*** off you odious piece of dog excrement. Conversing with obvious uneducated cretin's is not on my schedule today. Go read the verdicts you mean minded scrotebag.
Please let me know when you can fit me into the schedule. Perhaps Wednesday? I'd like to hear some more of this "decency" you speak of.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Ignore Malcolm,he is fixated and (obviosuly jealous as well) about money . Despite the fact he is a gambler ? And once recently told the forum he was wealthy himself
LOL, an idiot opines. I have never said I was wealthy , but I am far from skint. PS: Where the FUCK did you get that I am a gambler, £5 on the nags on a Saturday is hardly gambling you thick moron.
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
VVP's objective is not to end up with a prosperous, independent Ukraine in the EU and/or NATO. It certainly looks like he's going to get that. A second Belarus would have been ideal but he'll settle for a failed state full of starving wretches.
"Failed state" is a very strange way of describing it. If someone was beaten up in the street by a gang of thugs, would you really say that shows them up as a failure?
But semantics aside, the question is how Putin could make this "failure" permanent. By indefinite military occupation and rule of terror?
Look at what happened in Chechnya - pounding the population into the ground by force majeure until a kind of peace is achieved. Indefinite military occupation and rule of terror
That is the *pride* of Revived Greater Russia - the heroic stand against separatism, with Chechnya being the place where They Stopped The Rot.
"Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"
Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?
First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)
Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.
I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation. Would the West have been so united but for COVID? It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend. So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it. Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
Turns on your definition of "defend". Intervene militarily with boots on the ground and planes in the sky? Well, yes. Called that right. Unprecedented massive sanctions? Leading to private companies going above and beyond what has been mandated? United diplomatic condemnation? Supply of world class weaponry? Tens of thousands of Ukrainians heading home to fight? High levels of military intelligence granted freely? Refugees generally welcomed? Etc., Etc. Not sure he got those rather significant calls right.
Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.
We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
It is only a matter of when , not if. The old codgers who are last remaining spineless unionists are popping their clogs fast. Anyone under 50 has only lived under the cosh and so when a decent politician is running the country and forces a referendum, it will be independence. Can you tell me why the Ukranian's do not want to be Russian's again.
Zero chance of Sturgeon forcing a referendum
Tell me something I don't know, did you actually read my post, I said "DECENT" politician.
You support notorious pest Salmond, what do you know about decency?
F*** off you odious piece of dog excrement. Conversing with obvious uneducated cretin's is not on my schedule today. Go read the verdicts you mean minded scrotebag.
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.
We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
It is only a matter of when , not if. The old codgers who are last remaining spineless unionists are popping their clogs fast. Anyone under 50 has only lived under the cosh and so when a decent politician is running the country and forces a referendum, it will be independence. Can you tell me why the Ukranian's do not want to be Russian's again.
Zero chance of Sturgeon forcing a referendum
Tell me something I don't know, did you actually read my post, I said "DECENT" politician.
You support notorious pest Salmond, what do you know about decency?
F*** off you odious piece of dog excrement. Conversing with obvious uneducated cretin's is not on my schedule today. Go read the verdicts you mean minded scrotebag.
Careful of the apostrophe Malc.
apostrophes are a yoon plot
Oh Dear , you really are a spotty thick teenager. Butt out loser.
"Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"
Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?
First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)
Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.
I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation. Would the West have been so united but for COVID? It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend. So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it. Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
Biden had practically given Putin carte blanche for 'an incursion', so why he didn't concentrate all his forces on a smaller land grab to secure the Crimea water supply and a land corridor to the breakaway regions, but instead went completely tonto is completely beyond me.
The smaller land grab would have been, as you say, the rational thing. Putin playing 5D chess. The quick, successful war, get some ra-ra from the Head Count, high fives at the Security Council, "we have pushed back the West" etc etc
The problem is that Putin believes - To him, the idea that Ukraine could cease to be Russian seems to be beyond intolerable. By ceasing to be Russian - stopping looking to the East, becoming a Western country. One of Them.
When you add in the humiliation that with NATO, and the coming of missile defences, Russia won't be the Big Country in the neighbourhood.. *Estonia* can laugh at Russia now, in his mind. And to such nationalists, the measure of your country is how many cower at your feet.
If I'm right, he sees a tidal wave of Westernisation reaching into Real Russia. Which means the destruction of Russia.
"Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"
Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?
First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)
Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.
I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation. Would the West have been so united but for COVID? It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend. So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it. Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
Biden had practically given Putin carte blanche for 'an incursion', so why he didn't concentrate all his forces on a smaller land grab to secure the Crimea water supply and a land corridor to the breakaway regions, but instead went completely tonto is completely beyond me.
The smaller land grab would have been, as you say, the rational thing. Putin playing 5D chess. The quick, successful war, get some ra-ra from the Head Count, high fives at the Security Council, "we have pushed back the West" etc etc
The problem is that Putin believes - To him, the idea that Ukraine could cease to be Russian seems to be beyond intolerable. By ceasing to be Russian - stopping looking to the East, becoming a Western country. One of Them.
When you add in the humiliation that with NATO, and the coming of missile defences, Russia won't be the Big Country in the neighbourhood.. *Estonia* can laugh at Russia now, in his mind. And to such nationalists, the measure of your country is how many cower at your feet.
If I'm right, he sees a tidal wave of Westernisation reaching into Real Russia. Which means the destruction of Russia.
which is why he needs a face saver. in any negotiation of a dispute -business,personal ,war,politics it is best to leave both parties satisfied by the outcome
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.
Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.
Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.
Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
That depends on the nature of the links.
One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.
We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.
They may not all be bad guys.
Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?
Just maybe we could aim there?
Indeed. But my point stands.
Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
That was not my point. It is the assumption that everyone in a group *has* to be guilty.
You construct this windmill, and then tilt at it, once a day on average. To say that Carrie Johnson is odious is not sexism. To say that some men falsely identify as transwomen for sexual predation/sporting success reasons is not to be transphobic. And so on.
????
You're imagining things.
You have made both those claims
And you are doing it now:
"But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia."
I stand by that.
But in your intemperate post, you said that I do it 'once a day on average'.
LOL. LOL. LOL.
A post which is enhanced by that wink emoticon is a post it was not worth making in the first place
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
And bombing Syria on the same side as ISIS, and the opposite to Putin wouldn't have had any "dark consequences" whatsoever?
Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.
We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
It is only a matter of when , not if. The old codgers who are last remaining spineless unionists are popping their clogs fast. Anyone under 50 has only lived under the cosh and so when a decent politician is running the country and forces a referendum, it will be independence. Can you tell me why the Ukranian's do not want to be Russian's again.
Zero chance of Sturgeon forcing a referendum
Tell me something I don't know, did you actually read my post, I said "DECENT" politician.
You support notorious pest Salmond, what do you know about decency?
F*** off you odious piece of dog excrement. Conversing with obvious uneducated cretin's is not on my schedule today. Go read the verdicts you mean minded scrotebag.
Please let me know when you can fit me into the schedule. Perhaps Wednesday? I'd like to hear some more of this "decency" you speak of.
"Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"
Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?
First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)
Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.
I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation. Would the West have been so united but for COVID? It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend. So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it. Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
Biden had practically given Putin carte blanche for 'an incursion', so why he didn't concentrate all his forces on a smaller land grab to secure the Crimea water supply and a land corridor to the breakaway regions, but instead went completely tonto is completely beyond me.
The smaller land grab would have been, as you say, the rational thing. Putin playing 5D chess. The quick, successful war, get some ra-ra from the Head Count, high fives at the Security Council, "we have pushed back the West" etc etc
The problem is that Putin believes - To him, the idea that Ukraine could cease to be Russian seems to be beyond intolerable. By ceasing to be Russian - stopping looking to the East, becoming a Western country. One of Them.
When you add in the humiliation that with NATO, and the coming of missile defences, Russia won't be the Big Country in the neighbourhood.. *Estonia* can laugh at Russia now, in his mind. And to such nationalists, the measure of your country is how many cower at your feet.
If I'm right, he sees a tidal wave of Westernisation reaching into Real Russia. Which means the destruction of Russia.
which is why he needs a face saver. in any negotiation of a dispute -business,personal ,war,politics it is best to leave both parties satisfied by the outcome
He's nailed his trousers to the masthead
Climbing down now is basically impossible for him - he has humiliated himself and Russian power to the point where only total victory in Ukraine will get him out of this.
The usual argument for brinkmanship is that if one can convince the other player that one is unalterably committed then one can safely play D (against a rational opponent). Thus, Herman Kahn (1965) suggests that in playing Chicken on the road, one might deliberately and conspicuously remove the steering wheel and throw it away. This gives the opposing driver no choice but to swerve from the collision course (i.e., choose the appeasing "chicken" strategy C). Aside from the fact that the formal non-cooperative game does not provide for opportunities of communication, the unalterable commitment to the "daring" strategy D has certain practical drawbacks, as, for example, in the case where the player to be intimidated reasons exactly as the intimidator. Imagine the chagrin of a pre-emptor as he sees that the driver of the car oncoming has removed his steering wheel at precisely the same moment.
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
And bombing Syria on the same side as ISIS, and the opposite to Putin wouldn't have had any "dark consequences" whatsoever?
This has all been gone over many times before. We would not have been bombing on the same side as ISIS; there were, for a short time, many sides. It was not just ISIS and Assad. (In fact, there still are several sides, including the Kurds who are still getting it in the neck from Assad, Russia and Turkey.)
But Assad used chemical weapons against civilian targets. This was known and well documented. We screeched and howled, but did nothing.
Then Salisbury.
We did everything but tell Putin that we would not have any serious reaction to his adventures. If we had stood up strongly for our values in Syria, this may not have happened.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Without wanting to intervene on the pile on for the supporter of the famous resident in the next village, I don't get it.
Being handy at gardening and presenting talk shows on dodgy TV stations doesn't say anything at all about the case for or against Scottish independence.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
And bombing Syria on the same side as ISIS, and the opposite to Putin wouldn't have had any "dark consequences" whatsoever?
This has all been gone over many times before. We would not have been bombing on the same side as ISIS; there were, for a short time, many sides. It was not just ISIS and Assad. (In fact, there still are several sides, including the Kurds who are still getting it in the neck from Assad, Russia and Turkey.)
But Assad used chemical weapons against civilian targets. This was known and well documented. We screeched and howled, but did nothing.
Then Salisbury.
We did everything but tell Putin that we would not have any serious reaction to his adventures. If we had stood up strongly for our values in Syria, this may not have happened.
Yes it has been over many times. We were right not to intervene in the Syrian Civil War. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Well so far the Ukrainians have been trying to negotiate. Every time they reach some kind of agreement, the Russians violate it without pausing - safe corridors etc.
It takes two to tango. Unilaterally backing down will actually make the situation worse and less stable.
Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you
Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.
This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?
How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
The Ukranians rate British assistance highly, and their opinion is the one that matters.
It's OK for Boris Johnson to be corrupt because the UK is supplying Ukraine with valuable military support is quite a take!
We all know that he's corrupt and a charlatan. But, when it comes to the Ukraine, the government has done a good job.
The government has done a good job on some fronts. On others it has done very poorly.
Tolerance of corruption leads to more corruption. That's how it becomes endemic. And once it is endemic democracy effectively ceases to function.
To an extent it is how low we set the expectation bar.
Newly minted military strategic genius Johnson when confronted by an attractive Ukrainian lady journalist stuck to the NATO line. Good boy! We should expect nothing less of a NATO Leader. Our earlier fear might have been gibbering FS Johnson would have immediately agreed to a NFZ on misinterpreting her tears as bedroom eyes.
Likewise, do we expect the Johnson Government to do the right thing over Russian donors to the Conservative Party? Our expectations are not high, so anything they do invoke seems like a big deal
New 6 point plan from Muscly today. Telling the world they must "redouble their efforts". Also a haircut.
A world beating haircut?
Certainly one more befitting a war leader. You can imagine him in a tank now.
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
VVP's objective is not to end up with a prosperous, independent Ukraine in the EU and/or NATO. It certainly looks like he's going to get that. A second Belarus would have been ideal but he'll settle for a failed state full of starving wretches.
Seems achievable. The West will pay to rebuild, but if he is willing to throw away more of his own resources he can try stamping it back down again.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Without wanting to intervene on the pile on for the supporter of the famous resident in the next village, I don't get it.
Being handy at gardening and presenting talk shows on dodgy TV stations doesn't say anything at all about the case for or against Scottish independence.
Another diddy know it all opines. Go support your pal Cyril the perfect unionist advert and his chum Steele of course. Oh to be a Lib Dem.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
"Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"
Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?
First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)
Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.
I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation. Would the West have been so united but for COVID? It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend. So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it. Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
Biden had practically given Putin carte blanche for 'an incursion', so why he didn't concentrate all his forces on a smaller land grab to secure the Crimea water supply and a land corridor to the breakaway regions, but instead went completely tonto is completely beyond me.
Anyone who's paid attention to the Kremlin's position over the past decade would know that Putin has a backwards-looking mythological view about Russia's sphere of influence and their view on the unreality of Slavic peoples not being under Russian control. His strategy is Russia at the centre of a Eurasian empire.
The idea that securing Crimea was not a step on a much longer road was always false. Indeed, it relies on taking the Putinist propaganda -- that the security and rights of ethnic Russians is Russia's only and benign concern here -- as though they were statements of strategy. They never were: the strategy is broad and the casus belli specific. Anyone focused on just Crimea or even just Ukraine is missing the majority of the picture.
There is something in that, but I am not suggesting that the action I spoke of would have quenched Russia's strategic ambitions, just that it would have been the most sensible salami slice to take at this time in my opinion.
Where is the Belarussian army? Slated to enter the invasion a week ago there were rumours earlier this week that some units simply refused to move.
This morning unverified reports are the Chief of the General staff has resigned.
If any of this is true, and there is a fair slice of 'if', Side Show Bob Lukashenko might turn out to be more centre stage shortly.
Yes. This one is interesting. Belarus is the dog which didn't bark thus far. Lukashenko hasn't given off the air of a man confident of his short-term security.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
Indeed. Particularly when in some peoples' eyes Ukraine fighting back counts as escalation as it increases risk Putin will go even further. Assuming he is not against that, the current level of response has been disproportionate on the underside already - were it not for the nuclear capability a proportionate response probably would have included no fly zones etc, or at least they would have been more on the table.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
Indeed. Particularly when in some peoples' eyes Ukraine fighting back counts as escalation as it increases risk Putin will go even further. Assuming he is not against that, the current level of response has been disproportionate on the underside already - were it not for the nuclear capability a proportionate response probably would have included no fly zones etc, or at least they would have been more on the table.
If not for nuclear weapons we'd be in St Petersberg by now.
I still don't think we have properly understood what is happening in Ukraine. Zelenskyy has said that his goal as president is to destroy the traditional oligarchic order. There may have been backsliding, inconsistencies and the rest but this is what he represents.
Let me tell you a story. I was at a traditional English boarding school in the 90s. The sort of place others might call idyllic or an institution. We had a young man in our house from an eastern european country. His father was a businessman and had decided to send his son to sixth form in the UK. Halfway through the second year J (I'll call him) suddenly left and went home. He came back briefly to collect his things but that was the last we saw of him. It turned out his father had been assassinated and he was returning home to sort out his business.
Maybe Putin believes himself to be Peter the Great but he's also someone from a very poor background in a society that probably didn't afford him much dignity. He has built huge wealth through corrupt means and probably doesn't feel any need to pay back the society he came from. A President in his nearest neighbour with Zelenskyy's stated goals must be his worst nightmare.
Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
VVP's objective is not to end up with a prosperous, independent Ukraine in the EU and/or NATO. It certainly looks like he's going to get that. A second Belarus would have been ideal but he'll settle for a failed state full of starving wretches.
"Failed state" is a very strange way of describing it. If someone was beaten up in the street by a gang of thugs, would you really say that shows them up as a failure?
But semantics aside, the question is how Putin could make this "failure" permanent. By indefinite military occupation and rule of terror?
By thwarting their ambitions to act independently or without fear of his threats. Denying them NATO membership was already probably achieved, EU membership is simpler to achieve even if its still divided but the implued need to defend in more direct ways may still make that difficult.
It's a more modest goal than he wants, but keeping it somewhat in the Russian spehere even if just because it has to keep one eye on Russia's might be what he can accept, being so needy.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
Where is the Belarussian army? Slated to enter the invasion a week ago there were rumours earlier this week that some units simply refused to move.
This morning unverified reports are the Chief of the General staff has resigned.
If any of this is true, and there is a fair slice of 'if', Side Show Bob Lukashenko might turn out to be more centre stage shortly.
Yes. This one is interesting. Belarus is the dog which didn't bark thus far. Lukashenko hasn't given off the air of a man confident of his short-term security.
Providing a staging ground is not nothing of course, but I like the idea a terrified Lukashenko invited the Russians in, but Putin was wildly mistaken about how much he could offer Russia.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you
Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.
This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?
How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
The Ukranians rate British assistance highly, and their opinion is the one that matters.
It's OK for Boris Johnson to be corrupt because the UK is supplying Ukraine with valuable military support is quite a take!
We all know that he's corrupt and a charlatan. But, when it comes to the Ukraine, the government has done a good job.
The government has done a good job on some fronts. On others it has done very poorly.
Tolerance of corruption leads to more corruption. That's how it becomes endemic. And once it is endemic democracy effectively ceases to function.
To an extent it is how low we set the expectation bar.
Newly minted military strategic genius Johnson when confronted by an attractive Ukrainian lady journalist stuck to the NATO line. Good boy! We should expect nothing less of a NATO Leader. Our earlier fear might have been gibbering FS Johnson would have immediately agreed to a NFZ on misinterpreting her tears as bedroom eyes.
Likewise, do we expect the Johnson Government to do the right thing over Russian donors to the Conservative Party? Our expectations are not high, so anything they do invoke seems like a big deal
New 6 point plan from Muscly today. Telling the world they must "redouble their efforts". Also a haircut.
A world beating haircut?
Certainly one more befitting a war leader. You can imagine him in a tank now.
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
And bombing Syria on the same side as ISIS, and the opposite to Putin wouldn't have had any "dark consequences" whatsoever?
This has all been gone over many times before. We would not have been bombing on the same side as ISIS; there were, for a short time, many sides. It was not just ISIS and Assad. (In fact, there still are several sides, including the Kurds who are still getting it in the neck from Assad, Russia and Turkey.)
But Assad used chemical weapons against civilian targets. This was known and well documented. We screeched and howled, but did nothing.
Then Salisbury.
We did everything but tell Putin that we would not have any serious reaction to his adventures. If we had stood up strongly for our values in Syria, this may not have happened.
Yes it has been over many times. We were right not to intervene in the Syrian Civil War. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
I don't mind the disagreement about that issue, but I do get my knickers in a twist over the Ed Miliband aspect of it, as my recolleciton is that he was not against intervention under any circumstances, just that the various diferent votes all failed, and that he subsequently tried to take credit as it was his intention all along there be no action. I apologise to him if I hav emis recalled that.
Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you
Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.
This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?
How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
The Ukranians rate British assistance highly, and their opinion is the one that matters.
It's OK for Boris Johnson to be corrupt because the UK is supplying Ukraine with valuable military support is quite a take!
We all know that he's corrupt and a charlatan. But, when it comes to the Ukraine, the government has done a good job.
The government has done a good job on some fronts. On others it has done very poorly.
Tolerance of corruption leads to more corruption. That's how it becomes endemic. And once it is endemic democracy effectively ceases to function.
To an extent it is how low we set the expectation bar.
Newly minted military strategic genius Johnson when confronted by an attractive Ukrainian lady journalist stuck to the NATO line. Good boy! We should expect nothing less of a NATO Leader. Our earlier fear might have been gibbering FS Johnson would have immediately agreed to a NFZ on misinterpreting her tears as bedroom eyes.
Likewise, do we expect the Johnson Government to do the right thing over Russian donors to the Conservative Party? Our expectations are not high, so anything they do invoke seems like a big deal
New 6 point plan from Muscly today. Telling the world they must "redouble their efforts". Also a haircut.
A world beating haircut?
Certainly one more befitting a war leader. You can imagine him in a tank now.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
Indeed. Particularly when in some peoples' eyes Ukraine fighting back counts as escalation as it increases risk Putin will go even further. Assuming he is not against that, the current level of response has been disproportionate on the underside already - were it not for the nuclear capability a proportionate response probably would have included no fly zones etc, or at least they would have been more on the table.
and the fact unfortunately is that Russia does have nuclear weapons though and enough of them are aimed at the UK to kill everyone in it.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate
I welcome the report in 5 years, prosecution of someone in 20, and conclusion of appeal process in 50.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you
Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.
This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?
How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
The Ukranians rate British assistance highly, and their opinion is the one that matters.
It's OK for Boris Johnson to be corrupt because the UK is supplying Ukraine with valuable military support is quite a take!
We all know that he's corrupt and a charlatan. But, when it comes to the Ukraine, the government has done a good job.
The government has done a good job on some fronts. On others it has done very poorly.
Tolerance of corruption leads to more corruption. That's how it becomes endemic. And once it is endemic democracy effectively ceases to function.
To an extent it is how low we set the expectation bar.
Newly minted military strategic genius Johnson when confronted by an attractive Ukrainian lady journalist stuck to the NATO line. Good boy! We should expect nothing less of a NATO Leader. Our earlier fear might have been gibbering FS Johnson would have immediately agreed to a NFZ on misinterpreting her tears as bedroom eyes.
Likewise, do we expect the Johnson Government to do the right thing over Russian donors to the Conservative Party? Our expectations are not high, so anything they do invoke seems like a big deal
New 6 point plan from Muscly today. Telling the world they must "redouble their efforts". Also a haircut.
A world beating haircut?
Certainly one more befitting a war leader. You can imagine him in a tank now.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Alternatively, fly a few Ukrainian aircraft / drones to attack railways lines / bridges inside Russia making the logistics situation even worse for the Russians.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
Doctors aren't the only ones who are paid well. You can make a lot of money in law, for example defending serial pests who have a penchant for cosying up to Putin.
We can safely say you will not need to worry on that front, you are top class on the serial pest part but will never ever make the law part as that requires intelligence and there surely will be few stupid enough to want to cosy up either.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Alternatively, fly a few Ukrainian aircraft / drones to attack railways lines / bridges inside Russia making the logistics situation even worse for the Russians.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
Straight from the Kremlin
Or from their bots/useful idiots all over the world. What gives me hope is that on this issue the propaganda war is being lost by them.
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
And bombing Syria on the same side as ISIS, and the opposite to Putin wouldn't have had any "dark consequences" whatsoever?
This has all been gone over many times before. We would not have been bombing on the same side as ISIS; there were, for a short time, many sides. It was not just ISIS and Assad. (In fact, there still are several sides, including the Kurds who are still getting it in the neck from Assad, Russia and Turkey.)
But Assad used chemical weapons against civilian targets. This was known and well documented. We screeched and howled, but did nothing.
Then Salisbury.
We did everything but tell Putin that we would not have any serious reaction to his adventures. If we had stood up strongly for our values in Syria, this may not have happened.
Yes it has been over many times. We were right not to intervene in the Syrian Civil War. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
I don't mind the disagreement about that issue, but I do get my knickers in a twist over the Ed Miliband aspect of it, as my recolleciton is that he was not against intervention under any circumstances, just that the various diferent votes all failed, and that he subsequently tried to take credit as it was his intention all along there be no action. I apologise to him if I hav emis recalled that.
My recollection (possibly faulty as I haven't read up on it recently) is that he and Cameron had a long meeting, in which a package of measures was agreed. Then, just before the vote, Miliband reneged.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
What is happening in Ukraine is already working - if you are in NATO.
Putin & Co. will have no doubt that when it comes to NATO countries, NATO will fight. The associate countries (Finland, Sweden) will also be defended.
With the poor performance of his military, it is quite clear that he can't take on NATO in conventional war.
A small point - if the Czechs had fought in 1938, we would have been unable to help them in any physical way at all. The French could have invaded Germany in support, but the UK wouldn't even have been able to get weapons to them, probably.
In the end, none of us know what the best course of action is. Any number of actions thought at present to be good could turn out to be bad when looking at them retrospectively because events will unfold in a random way.
To my mind, the only constant is that we must support the Ukrainians in every way possible short of risking nuclear war. There is vast public support for refugees. But more fundamental is the fact that they need help to fight the war. If they fail to defeat this Russian enterprise, then Europe, and the prospect of liberal democracy, is ruined. It is likely to take many years of war, but there is no other realistic positive option other than for Ukraine to succeed.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life. But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
Particularly as we're all going to be bored shitless of it in a couple of weeks and will move on to something else.
That will happen .Lets be honest how many had actually forgot that Russian invaded Georgia only a few years ago? Out of their minds - me certainly. All the angst on here about the Taleban taking over and now never mentioned only a few months later. This is the problem with stuff -we get overexcited them bored . In this case the overexcited bit is the risk given the potential for escalation
I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186 * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
Ha, rather trickier.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
And bombing Syria on the same side as ISIS, and the opposite to Putin wouldn't have had any "dark consequences" whatsoever?
This has all been gone over many times before. We would not have been bombing on the same side as ISIS; there were, for a short time, many sides. It was not just ISIS and Assad. (In fact, there still are several sides, including the Kurds who are still getting it in the neck from Assad, Russia and Turkey.)
But Assad used chemical weapons against civilian targets. This was known and well documented. We screeched and howled, but did nothing.
Then Salisbury.
We did everything but tell Putin that we would not have any serious reaction to his adventures. If we had stood up strongly for our values in Syria, this may not have happened.
Yes it has been over many times. We were right not to intervene in the Syrian Civil War. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
I don't mind the disagreement about that issue, but I do get my knickers in a twist over the Ed Miliband aspect of it, as my recolleciton is that he was not against intervention under any circumstances, just that the various diferent votes all failed, and that he subsequently tried to take credit as it was his intention all along there be no action. I apologise to him if I hav emis recalled that.
My recollection (possibly faulty as I haven't read up on it recently) is that he and Cameron had a long meeting, in which a package of measures was agreed. Then, just before the vote, Miliband reneged.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate
You mean the 6 point drivel plan
I suppose at least he didn't carve into a monolith. That's when you know your plans have gone too far.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life. But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
OKC we are in violent agreement and I take your point on them being businesses but I would count what they take from business as salary not the turnover etc.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.
Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.
Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.
But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you
Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland. Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue. You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on. If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself. I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted. I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved. Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure. In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level. Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well. PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so sh ecould make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point. Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
I'm reading a history of the gunfight in the OK Corral at the moment! Very odd visions of you in chaps with your horse patrolling the Ayrshire roads and keeping an eye open for Yoon cowboys and carpetbaggers.
I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it
If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:
Net favourability
Sturgeon 13% Scottish Government 7% Anas Sarwar 1% Keir Starmer -10 Patrick Harvie -15 Alex Cole-Hamilton -15 Lorna Slater -15 Rishi Sunak -19 Douglas Ross -21 UK Government -50 Alex Salmond -62 Boris Johnson -62
You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.
So I remain quite sanguine.
They’re utterly and completely incompetent.
What’s the alternative?
Ah, ok, fair enough.
Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.
How do we recover education from its current morass?
What are our priorities in healthcare?
What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?
Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?
I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.
This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.
So we either reform the union or it will die.
We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.
The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.
It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen
Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism
It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving
The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship
We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU
I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate
You mean the 6 point drivel plan
I suppose at least he didn't carve into a monolith. That's when you know your plans have gone too far.
That still has to be one of the most embarassing political moments , up there with Salmond's rock not that far behind.
The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.
Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
Comments
You're imagining things.
But, yes, good question. I don't know what's driving Putin with this. I suppose I'll take the truth to be there in that rambling address. He thinks Russia is some innately magnificent and hard done by nation that has been shrunk and disrespected since it lost the Cold War and he now seeks to make it great again.
The West Midlands is amongst the most favourable of tory areas and Erdington was the most Leave seat in the region: 63% against 37%.
If in a time of war Labour STILL had a 4.5% swing I'd suggest you may be fooling yourself, but not many others.
Have a nice day.
And you are doing it now:
"But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia."
But semantics aside, the question is how Putin could make this "failure" permanent. By indefinite military occupation and rule of terror?
But in your intemperate post, you said that I do it 'once a day on average'.
LOL. LOL. LOL.
What happened was that most countries gave their street people hotel rooms.
Nearly everyone living on the street has issues that mean that their living rough is a symptom of their problems. Not the cause. So, quite rapidly, the street people returned to the streets.
This is important to think of - it shows the limitations of stamp-my-foor-and-make-it-so government.
*Reducing* the sleeping rough issue would take years of sustained effort, with relatively little to show for it. You will never eliminate it, either.
Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
PS: Where the FUCK did you get that I am a gambler, £5 on the nags on a Saturday is hardly gambling you thick moron.
That is the *pride* of Revived Greater Russia - the heroic stand against separatism, with Chechnya being the place where They Stopped The Rot.
Intervene militarily with boots on the ground and planes in the sky? Well, yes. Called that right.
Unprecedented massive sanctions? Leading to private companies going above and beyond what has been mandated? United diplomatic condemnation? Supply of world class weaponry? Tens of thousands of Ukrainians heading home to fight? High levels of military intelligence granted freely? Refugees generally welcomed? Etc., Etc.
Not sure he got those rather significant calls right.
I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.
There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
The problem is that Putin believes - To him, the idea that Ukraine could cease to be Russian seems to be beyond intolerable. By ceasing to be Russian - stopping looking to the East, becoming a Western country. One of Them.
When you add in the humiliation that with NATO, and the coming of missile defences, Russia won't be the Big Country in the neighbourhood.. *Estonia* can laugh at Russia now, in his mind. And to such nationalists, the measure of your country is how many cower at your feet.
If I'm right, he sees a tidal wave of Westernisation reaching into Real Russia. Which means the destruction of Russia.
You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
https://twitter.com/andrew_graeme/status/1500431134890643464?s=20&t=AS_ihW8ZtS1zjNDMnhr03A
toodlepip
Climbing down now is basically impossible for him - he has humiliated himself and Russian power to the point where only total victory in Ukraine will get him out of this.
The usual argument for brinkmanship is that if one can convince the other player that one is unalterably committed then one can safely play D (against a rational opponent). Thus, Herman Kahn (1965) suggests that in playing Chicken on the road, one might deliberately and conspicuously remove the steering wheel and throw it away. This gives the opposing driver no choice but to swerve from the collision course (i.e., choose the appeasing "chicken" strategy C). Aside from the fact that the formal non-cooperative game does not provide for opportunities of communication, the unalterable commitment to the "daring" strategy D has certain practical drawbacks, as, for example, in the case where the player to be intimidated reasons exactly as the intimidator. Imagine the chagrin of a pre-emptor as he sees that the driver of the car oncoming has removed his steering wheel at precisely the same moment.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.966.5249&rep=rep1&type=pdf
But Assad used chemical weapons against civilian targets. This was known and well documented. We screeched and howled, but did nothing.
Then Salisbury.
We did everything but tell Putin that we would not have any serious reaction to his adventures. If we had stood up strongly for our values in Syria, this may not have happened.
Being handy at gardening and presenting talk shows on dodgy TV stations doesn't say anything at all about the case for or against Scottish independence.
We were right not to intervene in the Syrian Civil War. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
It takes two to tango. Unilaterally backing down will actually make the situation worse and less stable.
Where is the Belarussian army? Slated to enter the invasion a week ago there were rumours earlier this week that some units simply refused to move.
This morning unverified reports are the Chief of the General staff has resigned.
If any of this is true, and there is a fair slice of 'if', Side Show Bob Lukashenko might turn out to be more centre stage shortly.
I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1500437341642579971?s=20&t=_IlRLfBcAN8rgcKQYUxb_A
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/president-zelenskyy-deoligarchization-is-the-key-to-ukraines-future-success/
Let me tell you a story. I was at a traditional English boarding school in the 90s. The sort of place others might call idyllic or an institution. We had a young man in our house from an eastern european country. His father was a businessman and had decided to send his son to sixth form in the UK. Halfway through the second year J (I'll call him) suddenly left and went home. He came back briefly to collect his things but that was the last we saw of him. It turned out his father had been assassinated and he was returning home to sort out his business.
Maybe Putin believes himself to be Peter the Great but he's also someone from a very poor background in a society that probably didn't afford him much dignity. He has built huge wealth through corrupt means and probably doesn't feel any need to pay back the society he came from. A President in his nearest neighbour with Zelenskyy's stated goals must be his worst nightmare.
It's a more modest goal than he wants, but keeping it somewhat in the Russian spehere even if just because it has to keep one eye on Russia's might be what he can accept, being so needy.
....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
And, Mr D your tense is confused.
1 - This has been a thing in Ukraine since at least 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_volunteer_battalions
2 - The total is reportedly 16k, including 'at least' 6k 'Britons' 'registering an interest', and they would not all be accepted, perhaps.
(Wiki / FT)
3 - The numbers in the International Brigades in Spain in the 1936-8 were ~50k, of whom 15k were killed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Brigades
Russia welcomed the vote not to intervene.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23892783
Putin & Co. will have no doubt that when it comes to NATO countries, NATO will fight. The associate countries (Finland, Sweden) will also be defended.
With the poor performance of his military, it is quite clear that he can't take on NATO in conventional war.
A small point - if the Czechs had fought in 1938, we would have been unable to help them in any physical way at all. The French could have invaded Germany in support, but the UK wouldn't even have been able to get weapons to them, probably.
To my mind, the only constant is that we must support the Ukrainians in every way possible short of risking nuclear war. There is vast public support for refugees. But more fundamental is the fact that they need help to fight the war. If they fail to defeat this Russian enterprise, then Europe, and the prospect of liberal democracy, is ruined. It is likely to take many years of war, but there is no other realistic positive option other than for Ukraine to succeed.
Catchy name.
But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
Whilst not religious in any way of all the recent Popes I remember he is by far the best .
People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.