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How different pollsters ask the “best PM” question – politicalbetting.com

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    edited March 2022
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life.
    But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
    OKC we are in violent agreement and I take your point on them being businesses but I would count what they take from business as salary not the turnover etc.
    Thanks Malc. However, my days of being violent are over. I'm the white-haired old chap who says thanks when the pub door is opened for me and a nice young lady offers me a seat. And the barmaid offers to carry my drink to where I intend to sit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
    Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
    The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?

    People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
    Putin's Office -

    image

    Thunderball briefing -

    image
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    kinabalu said:

    The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.


    Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?

    Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
    The UK will have its soul back!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
    It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so sh ecould make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point.
    Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
    I'm reading a history of the gunfight in the OK Corral at the moment! Very odd visions of you in chaps with your horse patrolling the Ayrshire roads and keeping an eye open for Yoon cowboys and carpetbaggers.
    Morning Carnyx, made me laugh, what is the name of the book. Blue sky and sunshine in Ayrshire yet again, hoping this is not an early summer.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
    Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
    The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?

    People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
    Putin's Office -

    image

    Thunderball briefing -

    image
    Putin as a No.2? Many Ukrainians would surely agree, yet use far stronger language.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    kinabalu said:

    The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.


    Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?

    Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
    Not while Tories are running the show, be smoke and mirrors at best, they have plenty tax havens outside London as well you know.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    Alternatively, fly a few Ukrainian aircraft / drones to attack railways lines / bridges inside Russia making the logistics situation even worse for the Russians.
    They have supposedly (usual caveats apply) done that, with drones attacking fuel trains.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    edited March 2022
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
    It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so sh ecould make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point.
    Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
    I'm reading a history of the gunfight in the OK Corral at the moment! Very odd visions of you in chaps with your horse patrolling the Ayrshire roads and keeping an eye open for Yoon cowboys and carpetbaggers.


    Malc Cogburn scared all them no-good varmints off his territory ages ago.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life.
    But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
    OKC we are in violent agreement and I take your point on them being businesses but I would count what they take from business as salary not the turnover etc.
    Thanks Malc. However, my days of being violent are over. I'm the white-haired old chap who says thanks when the pub door is opened for me and a nice young lady offers me a seat. And the barmaid offers to carry my drink to where I intend to sit.
    I am heading that way myself OKC, still a bit of life left in the old dog yet though.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    nico679 said:

    The Pope calls out the Russian lies in his weekly address .

    Whilst not religious in any way of all the recent Popes I remember he is by far the best .

    Another assassination target for Wagner.....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
    It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so sh ecould make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point.
    Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
    I'm reading a history of the gunfight in the OK Corral at the moment! Very odd visions of you in chaps with your horse patrolling the Ayrshire roads and keeping an eye open for Yoon cowboys and carpetbaggers.
    Morning Carnyx, made me laugh, what is the name of the book. Blue sky and sunshine in Ayrshire yet again, hoping this is not an early summer.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Gunfight-shootout-K-American/dp/184954364X

    Not finished yet so no final opinion, but good solid history by the look of it.

    Sunny today here too with a frosty start.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited March 2022
    darkage said:

    In the end, none of us know what the best course of action is. Any number of actions thought at present to be good could turn out to be bad when looking at them retrospectively because events will unfold in a random way.

    To my mind, the only constant is that we must support the Ukrainians in every way possible short of risking nuclear war. There is vast public support for refugees. But more fundamental is the fact that they need help to fight the war. If they fail to defeat this Russian enterprise, then Europe, and the prospect of liberal democracy, is ruined. It is likely to take many years of war, but there is no other realistic positive option other than for Ukraine to succeed.

    Ukraine has already not succeeded. The question is what degree of non success can be tolerated.

    Can anyone say they know the various actions and associated body counts in Western Ukraine for the past ten years.

    It may not actually be far away but it might as well be. We need to wait for a standstill which will be at the time of Putin's choosing and then see where we are.
  • NorthstarNorthstar Posts: 140

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    Straight from the Kremlin
    Or from their bots/useful idiots all over the world. What gives me hope is that on this issue the propaganda war is being lost by them.
    Amazing how many people confidently propose ‘a face saver for Putin’ as a sustainable way out of this, when it would simply embolden him and reward his brutal tactics here.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen

    Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism

    It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving

    The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship

    We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU

    I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
    Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
    Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........

    ....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
    Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate :)
    You mean the 6 point drivel plan
    I suppose at least he didn't carve into a monolith. That's when you know your plans have gone too far.
    That still has to be one of the most embarassing political moments , up there with Salmond's rock not that far behind.
    I'm so glad it happened though. Everything about it was hilarious - the size, the blandness of the words, the dull font, the approval process showing how many must have signed off on it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life.
    But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
    OKC we are in violent agreement and I take your point on them being businesses but I would count what they take from business as salary not the turnover etc.
    Thanks Malc. However, my days of being violent are over. I'm the white-haired old chap who says thanks when the pub door is opened for me and a nice young lady offers me a seat. And the barmaid offers to carry my drink to where I intend to sit.
    Sounds like bliss. Enjoy every moment.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    ydoethur said:

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
    Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
    The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?

    People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
    Putin's Office -

    image

    Thunderball briefing -

    image
    Putin as a No.2? Many Ukrainians would surely agree, yet use far stronger language.
    Number Two was competent in Austin Powers. Putin would dream of being Number Two....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
    Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
    The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?

    People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
    Putin's Office -

    image

    Thunderball briefing -

    image
    The spectre of his troops getting smershed must hang heavy over him....
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1500446360985903107

    "Putin tells Erdogan: Kyiv must cease fighting and fulfill all of Moscow’s demands in order for the Russian invasion of Ukraine to stop."

    Lol.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited March 2022

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR*
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186
    * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)

    Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
    Ha, rather trickier.

    I like it because it's educational for someone (eg me) who needs a refresh on some of those big events from 10/20/30 years ago and also because it doesn't home in on any one particular and try to construct a 'creative' take on things which just happens to suit the author's politics. BBC at its best imo.

    There's so much of that 'creativity' about. Even on here we get it. Like, just the other day there was a view floated that all of this was down to Ed Miliband - and there were some takers for that!
    That was me, and I never said it was all down to Ed Miliband. Just that his last-minute decision to change the way Labour voted has had some very, very dark consequences.

    You may disagree, but I certainly think there is a strong connection between that vote and what we see today: for one thing, Putin realised the west was divided and would not do the right thing.
    And bombing Syria on the same side as ISIS, and the opposite to Putin wouldn't have had any "dark consequences" whatsoever?
    This has all been gone over many times before. We would not have been bombing on the same side as ISIS; there were, for a short time, many sides. It was not just ISIS and Assad. (In fact, there still are several sides, including the Kurds who are still getting it in the neck from Assad, Russia and Turkey.)

    But Assad used chemical weapons against civilian targets. This was known and well documented. We screeched and howled, but did nothing.

    Then Salisbury.

    We did everything but tell Putin that we would not have any serious reaction to his adventures. If we had stood up strongly for our values in Syria, this may not have happened.
    Yes it has been over many times.
    We were right not to intervene in the Syrian Civil War. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
    I don't mind the disagreement about that issue, but I do get my knickers in a twist over the Ed Miliband aspect of it, as my recolleciton is that he was not against intervention under any circumstances, just that the various diferent votes all failed, and that he subsequently tried to take credit as it was his intention all along there be no action. I apologise to him if I hav emis recalled that.
    My recollection (possibly faulty as I haven't read up on it recently) is that he and Cameron had a long meeting, in which a package of measures was agreed. Then, just before the vote, Miliband reneged.

    Russia welcomed the vote not to intervene.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23892783
    Indeed, but Labour had their own motion supporting military action, albeit with more stringent conditions to permit it, which would have been unlikely - so Ed M posing as a hero, principled against any intervention in the years afterwards doesn't ring true for me unless his motion was phony.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23879579
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
    It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point.
    Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
    It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.

    I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.

    The latter I could live with.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited March 2022
    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1500446360985903107

    "Putin tells Erdogan: Kyiv must cease fighting and fulfill all of Moscow’s demands in order for the Russian invasion of Ukraine to stop."

    Lol.

    I tend to think of Erdogan as the Turkish Putin, but even he wouldn't swallow that.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315
    kinabalu said:

    The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.


    Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?

    Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
    I wonder if the Russian invasion is providing political cover for what many might have wanted to do, but were previously unable to co-ordinate with each other when faced against a well funded bunch of lawyers funded by a bunch of kleptocrats who had bought off their own private politicians?

    Right now it’s practically impossible for any politician to put their head over the parapet in defense of their Russian backers, so the field is clear for their opponents to go on the offensive, with all the moral justification you could possibly wish for.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    kinabalu said:

    The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.


    Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?

    Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
    It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.

    Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Roger said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen

    Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism

    It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving

    The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship

    We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU

    I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
    Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
    Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........

    ....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
    Johnson will be doing his utmost to gain attention, I'm afraid. He won't be satisfied with being supportive from the bench. I can't help thinking back to 2016 and the spectacle of John Terry, who had not played in the final, trotting out in full Chelsea strip to grab the CL trophy and get in all the photos. It's not an exact comparison, not even that close, but neither is it completely inappropriate and ridiculous.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
    Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
    The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?

    People posted the picture from Thunderball after Putin's bizarre meeting with his top officials.
    Putin's Office -

    image

    Thunderball briefing -

    image
    The spectre of his troops getting smershed must hang heavy over him....
    It's Largo's all round until someone has to pay the bill.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    TOPPING said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    The point I'm making, Malc, is that in GP-land, all across the UK, practices are small businesses and the 'salary' is equivalent to gross sales in other walks of life.
    But I stand corrected on the consultant's salaries. Although professional insurances can be high, as, to be fair, they can be, I understand, for lawyers.
    OKC we are in violent agreement and I take your point on them being businesses but I would count what they take from business as salary not the turnover etc.
    Thanks Malc. However, my days of being violent are over. I'm the white-haired old chap who says thanks when the pub door is opened for me and a nice young lady offers me a seat. And the barmaid offers to carry my drink to where I intend to sit.
    Sounds like bliss. Enjoy every moment.
    Thanks; however the arthritis somewhat detracts from it!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
    It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point.
    Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
    It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.

    I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.

    The latter I could live with.
    It is nice to travel for sure. In reality any split will take a long time given how intertwined we are and there is little chance it will be acrimonious apart from the usual idiots. Border will only be an issue if we are in EU which is very likely but given they have to solve Ireland then there will be a solution ready.
    For sure independence will open up opportunies for Scotland, just need to hope we get decent politicians to take advantage, signs so far are not hopeful. Current lot are at least as bad as Johnson and his bunch of losers and that is giving them the benefit of the doubt.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Cheers folks. Off to lunch. See you later, probably tomorrow.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen

    Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism

    It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving

    The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship

    We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU

    I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
    Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
    Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........

    ....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
    Yet another war crime for the Hague to investigate :)
    You mean the 6 point drivel plan
    I suppose at least he didn't carve into a monolith. That's when you know your plans have gone too far.
    That still has to be one of the most embarassing political moments , up there with Salmond's rock not that far behind.
    I'm so glad it happened though. Everything about it was hilarious - the size, the blandness of the words, the dull font, the approval process showing how many must have signed off on it.
    It certainly highlighted how thick and stupid most MP's are.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
    Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
    The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
    No, as I said, it's up to Ukraine to decide what deal (if any) they'll accept, but virtually all wars end in a settlement. Would a settlement involve permanent occupation of Kherson? Very unlikely. Should we reject a settlement if Ukraine wants to agree one? Surely not. Unless we choose to launch WW3, we are effectively bystanders here, and we don't have the right to dictate terms.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Cheers folks. Off to lunch. See you later, probably tomorrow.

    Enjoy, I also am off to do a bit of gardening.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦

    @IAPonomarenko·4h

    Ukrainian intel says Russians are deploying Tochka-U missile systems against Kyiv.
    And it sounds bizarre. I was sure Russians deem Tochkas obsolete and they aimed at retiring them all long time ago.
    Are they already running out of modern Kalibrs and Iskanders or what?

    https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1500391169443958785
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
    Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
    The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
    No, as I said, it's up to Ukraine to decide what deal (if any) they'll accept, but virtually all wars end in a settlement. Would a settlement involve permanent occupation of Kherson? Very unlikely. Should we reject a settlement if Ukraine wants to agree one? Surely not. Unless we choose to launch WW3, we are effectively bystanders here, and we don't have the right to dictate terms.
    Financially we do. Surely the Russians will soon be on their knees wanting the sanctions removed. What price are we willing to extract from them for that?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
    Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
    The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
    No, as I said, it's up to Ukraine to decide what deal (if any) they'll accept, but virtually all wars end in a settlement. Would a settlement involve permanent occupation of Kherson? Very unlikely. Should we reject a settlement if Ukraine wants to agree one? Surely not. Unless we choose to launch WW3, we are effectively bystanders here, and we don't have the right to dictate terms.
    Financially we do. Surely the Russians will soon be on their knees wanting the sanctions removed. What price are we willing to extract from them for that?
    Cede St Petersburg to Finland?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.


    Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?

    Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
    It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.

    Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
    I was never intensely relaxed about him saying that. There was a need to combat the view that Labour were hairshirted sourpusses who couldn't abide the idea of people having a nice meal out now and again, but it wasn't necessary to bend that far on the rhetoric.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    In that scenario, we are giving up sending weapons to Ukraine. He is giving up nothing. He will just say 'thanks!' and continue his action.
    Yes, I agree - a cease-fire that actually holds might be balanced by not sending additional weapons, but not just talking. I do agree with state_go_away that we should be willing to help achieve deescalation and simply cheering on Ukraine is unlikely to work. A negotiated deal of some sort will be needed in the end, but in the end it's up to Ukraine what they'll agree to.
    The logic of your position is that we should give in to nuclear blackmail. What would this negotiated settlement look like? There are already huge numbers of Ukrainians protesters on the streets of Kherson. What do we do? Allow Russia to control that city permanently? Force most of the city's residents to flee their homes?
    No, as I said, it's up to Ukraine to decide what deal (if any) they'll accept, but virtually all wars end in a settlement. Would a settlement involve permanent occupation of Kherson? Very unlikely. Should we reject a settlement if Ukraine wants to agree one? Surely not. Unless we choose to launch WW3, we are effectively bystanders here, and we don't have the right to dictate terms.
    They don't all end via negotiations though do they? If this continues as badly for the Russians as it looks to be so far then they will have to extricate themselves which almost certainly means Putin is gone. If that convoy is stuck in a hostile steppe in winter effectively under siege, running out of food and fuel, soldiers dying from starvation and hypothermia then something big is going to happen. Wholescale surrender and collapse of Russian army in Ukraine is a possibility.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦

    @IAPonomarenko·4h

    Ukrainian intel says Russians are deploying Tochka-U missile systems against Kyiv.
    And it sounds bizarre. I was sure Russians deem Tochkas obsolete and they aimed at retiring them all long time ago.
    Are they already running out of modern Kalibrs and Iskanders or what?

    https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1500391169443958785

    The USSR never used to throw things away - that's how they ended up with enough equipment for all the Category C divisions.

    Certainly their high-end weapons have been conspicuous by their relative absence in this war.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:


    Enda Kelly seemed to think so, he was discussing this with the British government in late 2016, until he was replaced by Varadkar and his much more antagonistic approach.

    This old saw used to get wheeled out quite regularly during the dark days 2018-9. It turned out to be yet another David Davis lie.
    There were serious discussions on setting up the system, until the change of Irish government and the EU decided to use the Irish border as a hard line in their negotiations, rather than something which history should tell us required a somewhat more nuanced approach.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    malcolmg said:

    Cheers folks. Off to lunch. See you later, probably tomorrow.

    Enjoy, I also am off to do a bit of gardening.
    Just updating the Nature's Calendar thing on the woodland trust website. Hawthorn in leaf, blackthorn at budburst.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited March 2022
    TOPPING said:

    darkage said:

    In the end, none of us know what the best course of action is. Any number of actions thought at present to be good could turn out to be bad when looking at them retrospectively because events will unfold in a random way.

    To my mind, the only constant is that we must support the Ukrainians in every way possible short of risking nuclear war. There is vast public support for refugees. But more fundamental is the fact that they need help to fight the war. If they fail to defeat this Russian enterprise, then Europe, and the prospect of liberal democracy, is ruined. It is likely to take many years of war, but there is no other realistic positive option other than for Ukraine to succeed.

    Ukraine has already not succeeded. The question is what degree of non success can be tolerated.

    Can anyone say they know the various actions and associated body counts in Western Ukraine for the past ten years.

    It may not actually be far away but it might as well be. We need to wait for a standstill which will be at the time of Putin's choosing and then see where we are.
    I am not a military expert unlike some others who post on here (who I note have largely exited the discussion, perhaps wisely). But surely it depends on how success is defined. Ukraine can still win, in that the long term aims of Russia in Ukraine (ie setting up a Belarus style client state) can be made impossible by way of an expensive civil war. That is what I would define as success at this point. Obviously I am hoping for a more decisive victory on the battlefield, an end to the war and the collapse of Putin's regime; but as I said previously, I am not investing to much energy in such hopes.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
    It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point.
    Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
    It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.

    I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.

    The latter I could live with.
    The current fudge (not to be confused with currant fudge) on the Northern Ireland border isn’t working very well. A fudged Scottish border would be more complicated.

    We’ve also learnt, with the Brexit negotiations more broadly, that divorce negotiations tend to always move to harder splits.

    So I wouldn’t bet on soft and slow in the case of Scotland.

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    Alternatively, fly a few Ukrainian aircraft / drones to attack railways lines / bridges inside Russia making the logistics situation even worse for the Russians.
    err no
    You think that Russia might declare war on them if they did that?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    TOPPING - Here is Air Marshal Philip Osbourn. He seems a bit more optimistic about Ukraine's chances

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5gvnN9PplY
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.


    Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?

    Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
    It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.

    Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
    I was never intensely relaxed about him saying that. There was a need to combat the view that Labour were hairshirted sourpusses who couldn't abide the idea of people having a nice meal out now and again, but it wasn't necessary to bend that far on the rhetoric.
    Tories: Labour is the party of envy, of jealousy, of levelling down, of spending other people's money, of class hatred, of not letting people enjoy their well-earned riches.

    Same Tories: how dare Mandelson say that he is 'intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich'! Shows that Labour isn't the party of ordinary hard-working people at all.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    Alternatively, fly a few Ukrainian aircraft / drones to attack railways lines / bridges inside Russia making the logistics situation even worse for the Russians.
    err no
    You think that Russia might declare war on them if they did that?
    Wasn't there a video published that claimed to show a Ukrainian drone strike on a Russian munitions train, inside Russia?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
    It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point.
    Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
    It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.

    I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.

    The latter I could live with.
    The current fudge (not to be confused with currant fudge) on the Northern Ireland border isn’t working very well. A fudged Scottish border would be more complicated.

    We’ve also learnt, with the Brexit negotiations more broadly, that divorce negotiations tend to always move to harder splits.

    So I wouldn’t bet on soft and slow in the case of Scotland.

    The Czechs and Slovaks managed it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    If he’s talking about Russia, this might be optimistic.

    Surprising honesty from Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska on the unraveling economic crisis: "This is going to be like 1998 crisis but three times worse and will last 3 years"
    https://twitter.com/ABarbashin/status/1500417296967290881
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦

    @IAPonomarenko·4h

    Ukrainian intel says Russians are deploying Tochka-U missile systems against Kyiv.
    And it sounds bizarre. I was sure Russians deem Tochkas obsolete and they aimed at retiring them all long time ago.
    Are they already running out of modern Kalibrs and Iskanders or what?

    https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1500391169443958785

    The USSR never used to throw things away - that's how they ended up with enough equipment for all the Category C divisions.

    Some of the switches in the Sea Harrier cockpit were Bakelite jobs left over from Sea Fury production parsimoniously used by Hawker/BAE to save a few quid.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen

    Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism

    It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving

    The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship

    We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU

    I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
    Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
    Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........

    ....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
    Johnson will be doing his utmost to gain attention, I'm afraid. He won't be satisfied with being supportive from the bench. I can't help thinking back to 2016 and the spectacle of John Terry, who had not played in the final, trotting out in full Chelsea strip to grab the CL trophy and get in all the photos. It's not an exact comparison, not even that close, but neither is it completely inappropriate and ridiculous.
    Comparing Johnson to Terry. It works in so many ways... and a Bridge looms large in both men's story.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I do wonder also if the threat of nuclear war soon due to escalation of the Ukraine/Russia war will make people in this country not that caring about day to day stuff like work ,education, money even forming friendships. In a nuclear war the UK will be gone so a decent chance of it happening will mean society breaks down beforehand. We do really need to de-escalate this quickly now - we have gone up the mountain for two weeks we needs to start coming down it

    If you've got a way of de-escalating that doesn't basically just cave to Russia and give them carte blanche to do what they want, the Western world probably wouldn't mind hearing it.
    well its a good start if we are generally agreeing that there needs to be a de-escalation . I am by no means an expert in ukraine/Russia but enough are to give something as a package that is a face saver to all sides . The first gesture is probably saying we shoudl negotiate and if you agree we will pause arms to Ukraine. Get rid of the military machismo
    Alternatively, fly a few Ukrainian aircraft / drones to attack railways lines / bridges inside Russia making the logistics situation even worse for the Russians.
    err no
    You think that Russia might declare war on them if they did that?
    Wasn't there a video published that claimed to show a Ukrainian drone strike on a Russian munitions train, inside Russia?
    Ukrainian Drone Hit Fuel Train Deep Behind Russian Lines

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdcYi8yJ5gs&ab_channel=ExoticCabi

    not guaranteed to be true, and I suppose behind Russian lines could still mean in Ukraine. Hard to see what red line Ukraine would be crossing in attacking in Russia, anyway.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    rpjs said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
    It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point.
    Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
    It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.

    I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.

    The latter I could live with.
    The current fudge (not to be confused with currant fudge) on the Northern Ireland border isn’t working very well. A fudged Scottish border would be more complicated.

    We’ve also learnt, with the Brexit negotiations more broadly, that divorce negotiations tend to always move to harder splits.

    So I wouldn’t bet on soft and slow in the case of Scotland.

    The Czechs and Slovaks managed it.
    I'm guessing starting from positions of approximate equivalence helped. One much bigger element seething with centuries of entitlement and saying it holds all the cards might make things trickier.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Nigelb said:

    If he’s talking about Russia, this might be optimistic.

    Surprising honesty from Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska on the unraveling economic crisis: "This is going to be like 1998 crisis but three times worse and will last 3 years"
    https://twitter.com/ABarbashin/status/1500417296967290881

    But if they end the war and make major concessions we can help them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    Dura_Ace said:

    Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦

    @IAPonomarenko·4h

    Ukrainian intel says Russians are deploying Tochka-U missile systems against Kyiv.
    And it sounds bizarre. I was sure Russians deem Tochkas obsolete and they aimed at retiring them all long time ago.
    Are they already running out of modern Kalibrs and Iskanders or what?

    https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1500391169443958785

    The USSR never used to throw things away - that's how they ended up with enough equipment for all the Category C divisions.

    Some of the switches in the Sea Harrier cockpit were Bakelite jobs left over from Sea Fury production parsimoniously used by Hawker/BAE to save a few quid.
    Morgan should have bought them as a job lot and offered them as a trim option along with the roundel and shark mouth. IDS would have felt his first wooden wonder for a while.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    The Royal Bank of Scotland didn't quite fit that model with GRG.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited March 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    Always worth bringing this up when anyone suggests traders in FS have any special talent.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickferri/2012/12/20/any-monkey-can-beat-the-market/?sh=11b388da630a

  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    IshmaelZ said:

    btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.

    So, as long as there is lawyer hovering over the big red button we should be fine?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited March 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.

    It’s more that we’d be downing their aircraft and smashing up missiles inside Russia, and they might take offence and escalate a tad.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited March 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.

    You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.

    Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.

    There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    IshmaelZ said:

    btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.

    One problem with a no-fly-zone is imposing the no flying bit. What if the Russians decide to fly? Well, then you have to shoot them down.

    Another problem is that the Russians would, undoubtedly, use their long range SAMs against the NATO aircraft enforcing the no-fly zone. So either you ignore that and take loses of NATO aircraft, or you destroy Russian military systems and people. In Russia.

    Both of those = full on war vs Russia.
  • Eabhal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    The Royal Bank of Scotland didn't quite fit that model with GRG.
    Nor Bob Diamond and his pals who fixed the Libor rates.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    MrEd said:

    Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.

    You don't have any option but to take Trump on aggressively. You know he's going to come for you like a rabid honey badger.....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Eabhal said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.

    So, as long as there is lawyer hovering over the big red button we should be fine?
    Looks a straightforward provision to me, and does what it is intended to do, i.e. prevent member states from provoking fights in order to trigger art 5.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    biggles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    btw I keep hearing people saying: we can't have an air exclusion zone because Russia might down a nato plane and that would be an Article 5 event. It wouldn't. Article 6 says attacking aircraft is only an Article 5 act if it is over the N Atlantic, Med, Nato territory or territory occupied by nato at time of treaty coming in to force in 1949.

    It’s more that we’d be downing their aircraft and smashing up missiles inside Russia, and they might take offence and escalate a tad.
    Sure, there's stacks of good reasons not to do it, but the art 5 argument isn't one of them, and I keep hearing it advanced by ostensibly knowledgeable peeps on the wireless
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited March 2022

    ...

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen

    Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism

    It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving

    The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship

    We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU

    I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
    Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
    Well here On the French Riviera all they're talking about is Boris's 'six point plan' and how the EU the Americans the heads of NATO and the UK opposition parties are hailing it as 'a ....'a briliant plan' .......'a thoughtful strategy' .....'the leadership we've been waiting for'........

    ....and then I woke up! So I switched on the radio and it was a dream. It was wall to wall Macron.....and I didn't know until this morning that Putin calls Macron daily and they talk for ages
    Johnson will be doing his utmost to gain attention, I'm afraid. He won't be satisfied with being supportive from the bench. I can't help thinking back to 2016 and the spectacle of John Terry, who had not played in the final, trotting out in full Chelsea strip to grab the CL trophy and get in all the photos. It's not an exact comparison, not even that close, but neither is it completely inappropriate and ridiculous.
    Comparing Johnson to Terry. It works in so many ways... and a Bridge looms large in both men's story.
    Just listening to Pippa Crerar on Sky she was surprisingly complimentary on Boris's efforts especially on arming and training Ukraine and that Ukraine’s President is in touch with him virtually daily and he is ramping up financial sanctions which have been delayed due to legal problems

    She seemed to be of the general opinion this has given him an opportunity to promote global britain

    For Pippa to be saying this is remarkable in view of her role in pursuing partygate and I doubt a FPN, if he does get one, is going to see Boris leave the stage
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MrEd said:

    Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.

    Nice to agree with you for once.
    His recently reiterated praise for fat boy Kim won’t help, either.
    https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1500322723020656644
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    rpjs said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
    Just trying to achieve financial security and a 6 figure salary like you :)
    Most Doctor's have one in UK though and as you say they are available elsewhere, not as many but you can get them, though I had to travel the world first to be able to come back to Scotland.
    Also shedloads of big money jobs in the government but you tend to need chums there , they can have multiple "jobs" with no issue.
    You may find Australia is not all it seems , some people like it and many cannot wait to get back. Your gf will also learn that money is not everything as well as life goes on.
    If I went back I am not sure I would follow the same path but my luck was getting a brilliant job that I enjoy and travel the world but it took a lot of my time when young, now I think I would trade some of the cash for more time for sure.
    Hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Certainly would be better if independent for sure and if young now and my future was being ruled by crooked Tories for the forseeable and no sign of Independence I would perhaps go elsewhere myself.
    I had the opportunity to stay in the US but came back for family reasons and do regret it at times.
    TBF Malc, while many doctors, especially in general practice mat seem to have six-figure salaries, those are gross figures (I know, I know) but they are the overall figures for the practice and some at least of staff salaries, rents and general running costs have to be deducted.
    I very much doubt if, for example, our Dr F and his colleagues get to those levels.
    OKC, Yes but everyone talks aboiut salary , no-one says after tax income. I also know most doctors work hard but they cannot be counted among the poor in the UK. They may get better salaries in some other countries and much worse in others, fact still is they have well above average salaries and well above average pensions even if deserved.
    Foxy will be well in 6 figures and have massive pension pot given his age, he will never need to worry about cash for sure.
    In England Consultants are £84K - £114K, they are eligible for excellence awards which can be large, excellent pension and able to do private practice on top. Will be very few under 6 figures unless just made Consultant level.
    Scottish ones will also have the benefit of much cheaper housing costs as well.
    PS: No dig at Foxy I am sure like most other consultants he has earned his salary and more.
    Not sure why this argument is about - are doctors essential? yes. How do you attract people to essential jobs - you pay them well- Even Malcolm in his last sentence said they earned their money. Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really
    It started as Eabhal was planning to emigrate if Scotland became independent so his gf could make more money. I could not understand the connection and pointed out that they were well paid at present even if they had to work hard for it. so now just a pleasant discussion re whether well paid etc and most do agree they are essential and well paid , apart from some goon unionist who appears to be stalking me and trying to make some obscure point.
    Unfortunately I seem to attract these losers, bit like the old wild west when the losers tried to beat the fastest gun.
    It was in jest, the emigration thing. Probably go anyway. I fancy an adventure.

    I also think there needs to be a distinction between hard and soft indy. Hard has a border with England and a brand new currency. Soft has a slow transition to the Euro and some sort of fudge with RUK on the border, NI style.

    The latter I could live with.
    The current fudge (not to be confused with currant fudge) on the Northern Ireland border isn’t working very well. A fudged Scottish border would be more complicated.

    We’ve also learnt, with the Brexit negotiations more broadly, that divorce negotiations tend to always move to harder splits.

    So I wouldn’t bet on soft and slow in the case of Scotland.
    The Czechs and Slovaks managed it.
    Soft, yes. Slow, no. It all happened rather quickly.

    Managed? Depends what you mean. Czechia and Slovakia are different countries, but there was an economic impact and a narrow majority of the populations today think it was a mistake.

    Czechoslovakia was not in the EU and the two successor states joined the EU at the same time. NI and Brexit may be a better example because Scotland is clear about its desire to join the EU. The fundamental problem in NI has always been that you want Rep. of Ireland and NI to have a soft border, GB and NI to have a soft border, Rep. of Ireland and the rest of the EU to have a soft border, but GB and EU require a hard border (at least while the Brexiteers are in power). The same applies to an independent Scotland joining the EU. Had Czechia been intent on joining the EU and Slovakia wanted to stay out, the Velvet Divorce would’ve been much more complicated.

    Scotland and rUK both in the EU: easier. Scotland and rUK both out of the EU: easier. But that’s not where we are in terms of stated goals. Brexiteers ignored the NI border problem and were wrong to do so. Scottish nationalists who ignore the same problem make the same mistake.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.


    Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?

    Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
    It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.

    Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
    I was never intensely relaxed about him saying that. There was a need to combat the view that Labour were hairshirted sourpusses who couldn't abide the idea of people having a nice meal out now and again, but it wasn't necessary to bend that far on the rhetoric.
    Tories: Labour is the party of envy, of jealousy, of levelling down, of spending other people's money, of class hatred, of not letting people enjoy their well-earned riches.

    Same Tories: how dare Mandelson say that he is 'intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich'! Shows that Labour isn't the party of ordinary hard-working people at all.
    Yep, the old 'Politics of Envy Class Warrior or Champagne Socialist Hypocrite' dichotomy. And if you somehow avoid either you're 'dull'. There is just no type of Labour that quite passes muster. It's amazing we ever win any elections at all really.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.

    I am old enough to remember when people decried NATO's WWIII plan as - hold the Fulda Gap for three days, then blow up the world.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.


    Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?

    Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
    It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.

    Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
    I was never intensely relaxed about him saying that. There was a need to combat the view that Labour were hairshirted sourpusses who couldn't abide the idea of people having a nice meal out now and again, but it wasn't necessary to bend that far on the rhetoric.
    I'd say that the fundamental issue is between 'earned' and 'unearned' money.

    Now getting lots of money by earning it - whether that's through employment or having a business or investment choices - isn't easy and almost always involves a lot of hard work and intrinsic ability.

    But unearned money can be different if it is acquired through dishonest, criminal, malignant means.

    Now I don't know how many people are willing to engage in dishonest, criminal or malignant methods to acquire unearned money.

    But I'm pretty sure that there are proportionally more of such people in politics and parts of the financial sector - and both with much more scope to do so.

    Think about Mandelson's full quote - "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich as long as they pay their taxes" and exchange 'filthy rich' for 'dirty money'.

    Doesn't that sum up British government mentality on this issue ?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.

    You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.

    Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.

    There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
    Ah, so if job security makes the difference I’ll do a deal with you. Most public sector employees would love to get rid of the 20% who are crap at their jobs, but this Government has shown no interest in doing so (every public sector reform since 2010 has been excellent at making good people leave and doing nothing to crap people). If we introduce such a system, can public sector workers get FS pay?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited March 2022
    Do we know what these 6 points are on this exciting new master plan? Is there some strong action there to give us hope?

    image

    PS yes mum texted me! to say stop complaining about the Tories Boris has a plan to win it 🤦‍♀️
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051

    MrEd said:

    Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.

    You don't have any option but to take Trump on aggressively. You know he's going to come for you like a rabid honey badger.....
    https://krugersdorpnews.co.za/309475/rabid-badger-bites-couple/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    biggles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.

    You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.

    Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.

    There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
    Ah, so if job security makes the difference I’ll do a deal with you. Most public sector employees would love to get rid of the 20% who are crap at their jobs, but this Government has shown no interest in doing so (every public sector reform since 2010 has been excellent at making good people leave and doing nothing to crap people). If we introduce such a system, can public sector workers get FS pay?
    There are only 20% of people at the DfE that are crap? That seems very much on the low side to me...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.

    You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.

    Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.

    There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
    Hats off to you HY. When you talk nonsense you do it with great authority.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.

    I am old enough to remember when people decried NATO's WWIII plan as - hold the Fulda Gap for three days, then blow up the world.

    Yes, the positions are reversed from 1985. The red army isn’t going to surge over the border, instead it’s going to slowly limp into Poland or Estonia before being routed, and then the risk is the Russians go nuclear.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    ydoethur said:

    biggles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.

    You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.

    Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.

    There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
    Ah, so if job security makes the difference I’ll do a deal with you. Most public sector employees would love to get rid of the 20% who are crap at their jobs, but this Government has shown no interest in doing so (every public sector reform since 2010 has been excellent at making good people leave and doing nothing to crap people). If we introduce such a system, can public sector workers get FS pay?
    There are only 20% of people at the DfE that are crap? That seems very much on the low side to me...
    20% in the public sector over all, disproportionately focused on the DFE, DCMS, and large chunks of local councils or would seem… It is, of course, impossible to judge in the Cabinet Office and Number 10 until they’ve sobered up.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    edited March 2022

    Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦

    @IAPonomarenko·4h

    Ukrainian intel says Russians are deploying Tochka-U missile systems against Kyiv.
    And it sounds bizarre. I was sure Russians deem Tochkas obsolete and they aimed at retiring them all long time ago.
    Are they already running out of modern Kalibrs and Iskanders or what?

    https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1500391169443958785

    The USSR never used to throw things away - that's how they ended up with enough equipment for all the Category C divisions.

    Certainly their high-end weapons have been conspicuous by their relative absence in this war.
    I really think the West has massively overestimated the effectiveness of Russian weapons and the Russian military. Even after the Gulf and Iraq wars people would always say "that's the export model, and the Russian forces are much better trained" to explain the apparent deficiencies.

    Only a few weeks ago you could find endless comments about how the anti-tank weapons the West has sent would not be effective against modern Russian tanks and their explosive reactive armour, and the grills being fitted to defeat top-attack weapons.

    It's actually staggering to see how badly the Russian military is performing. Whatever happens to Ukraine, and Russia can still choose to kill vast numbers of people and declare victory, there will have to be a complete reassessment of the Russian military.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited March 2022
    biggles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.

    You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.

    Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.

    There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
    Ah, so if job security makes the difference I’ll do a deal with you. Most public sector employees would love to get rid of the 20% who are crap at their jobs, but this Government has shown no interest in doing so (every public sector reform since 2010 has been excellent at making good people leave and doing nothing to crap people). If we introduce such a system, can public sector workers get FS pay?
    No as by definition the public sector is always taxpayer funded and less prone to the growth or decline of businesses and the market economy as financial services is.

    There might be a case for some performance related pay and bonuses in the public sector like financial services in the private sector and an annual cull of the weakest performers a la Goldman Sachs but generally unions are opposed to them wanting pay to rise equally for all. As unions are much stronger in the public than private sector now it therefore rarely happens
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    edited March 2022
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.


    Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?

    Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
    It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.

    Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
    I was never intensely relaxed about him saying that. There was a need to combat the view that Labour were hairshirted sourpusses who couldn't abide the idea of people having a nice meal out now and again, but it wasn't necessary to bend that far on the rhetoric.
    Tories: Labour is the party of envy, of jealousy, of levelling down, of spending other people's money, of class hatred, of not letting people enjoy their well-earned riches.

    Same Tories: how dare Mandelson say that he is 'intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich'! Shows that Labour isn't the party of ordinary hard-working people at all.
    Yep, the old 'Politics of Envy Class Warrior or Champagne Socialist Hypocrite' dichotomy. And if you somehow avoid either you're 'dull'. There is just no type of Labour that quite passes muster. It's amazing we ever win any elections at all really.
    Well I guess equally if Labour are so good it's even more amazing they win so relatively few - always excepting Mr. Blair of course....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    biggles said:

    ydoethur said:

    biggles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.

    You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.

    Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.

    There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
    Ah, so if job security makes the difference I’ll do a deal with you. Most public sector employees would love to get rid of the 20% who are crap at their jobs, but this Government has shown no interest in doing so (every public sector reform since 2010 has been excellent at making good people leave and doing nothing to crap people). If we introduce such a system, can public sector workers get FS pay?
    There are only 20% of people at the DfE that are crap? That seems very much on the low side to me...
    20% in the public sector over all, disproportionately focused on the DFE, DCMS, and large chunks of local councils or would seem… It is, of course, impossible to judge in the Cabinet Office and Number 10 until they’ve sobered up.
    I would suggest the odds are they're taking the piss.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    biggles said:

    Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.

    I am old enough to remember when people decried NATO's WWIII plan as - hold the Fulda Gap for three days, then blow up the world.

    Yes, the positions are reversed from 1985. The red army isn’t going to surge over the border, instead it’s going to slowly limp into Poland or Estonia before being routed, and then the risk is the Russians go nuclear.
    I don't think that, with the war in Ukraine, Russia could attacks anything else, at the moment.

    I'm wondering what happens if the unthinkable happens - What if Ukraine pushes Russia back, at least in the North West ?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Brillo weathervane has spaketh. We're all Carole cat women now.


    Are we going to flip on a sixpence from being a centre of excellence for money laundering to being dead against it?

    Quite something if so. It would show that Germany isn't the only country that can overturn 30 years worth of deeply ingrained policy in response to what Putin is doing.
    It would be another clear-up of the Blair-Cameron era.

    Mandelson's announcing that the Labour party was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" summed up the mentality and strategy.
    I was never intensely relaxed about him saying that. There was a need to combat the view that Labour were hairshirted sourpusses who couldn't abide the idea of people having a nice meal out now and again, but it wasn't necessary to bend that far on the rhetoric.
    Tories: Labour is the party of envy, of jealousy, of levelling down, of spending other people's money, of class hatred, of not letting people enjoy their well-earned riches.

    Same Tories: how dare Mandelson say that he is 'intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich'! Shows that Labour isn't the party of ordinary hard-working people at all.
    Yep, the old 'Politics of Envy Class Warrior or Champagne Socialist Hypocrite' dichotomy. And if you somehow avoid either you're 'dull'. There is just no type of Labour that quite passes muster. It's amazing we ever win any elections at all really.
    Your recent winning form is about as good as mine on hurdle races.

    We had 13 Mandy years and communities levelled down. You may never get a majority again from everyone who remembers it.

    Fantasy: embrace the glorious advantages of globalisation says Blair!
    Reality: like a Putin peace mission has visited the place, this sums up Labours last rare visit to power in just 2 sentences.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.

    You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.

    Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.

    There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
    Ah, so if job security makes the difference I’ll do a deal with you. Most public sector employees would love to get rid of the 20% who are crap at their jobs, but this Government has shown no interest in doing so (every public sector reform since 2010 has been excellent at making good people leave and doing nothing to crap people). If we introduce such a system, can public sector workers get FS pay?
    No as by definition the public sector is always taxpayer funded and less prone to the growth or decline of businesses and the market economy as financial services is.

    There might be a case for some performance related pay and bonuses in the public sector like financial services in the private sector but generally unions are opposed to them wanting pay to rise equally for all. As unions are much stronger in the public than private sector now it therefore rarely happens
    You realise, of course, that automatic pay profession has gone outside of the NHS (and schools?) and “performance related pay” (bonuses too small to motivate but big enough to irritate when badly used) are now the status quo in the public sector? People stuck on the lowest salary point with no prospect of profession so they leave? And your understanding of unions and their relative power is clearly based entirely on Tory party slogans rather than negotiating with them.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    MrEd said:

    Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.

    I won't because I already have a big (underwater) short on him but I do agree. Trump 2.0 is feeling less and less likely to me.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited March 2022

    biggles said:

    Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.

    I am old enough to remember when people decried NATO's WWIII plan as - hold the Fulda Gap for three days, then blow up the world.

    Yes, the positions are reversed from 1985. The red army isn’t going to surge over the border, instead it’s going to slowly limp into Poland or Estonia before being routed, and then the risk is the Russians go nuclear.
    I don't think that, with the war in Ukraine, Russia could attacks anything else, at the moment.

    I'm wondering what happens if the unthinkable happens - What if Ukraine pushes Russia back, at least in the North West ?
    Playing out the scenario, you’d forgive Ukraine for at least wanting to create a demilitarised “buffer zone” the other side of the border.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.

    I won't because I already have a big (underwater) short on him but I do agree. Trump 2.0 is feeling less and less likely to me.
    His rivals need to really piss him off with a Trump style nickname.

    Moscow Donnie?

    Comrade Trump?

    Mini-Putin?

    Agent Orange?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    Anti-War demonstration in London outside the BBC just starting, I think.

    Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.

    They seem to have a relatively small number of the Thermobaric MLRS setups - under 50 in toto.

    Which may be encouraging.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    biggles said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.

    You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.

    Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.

    There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
    Ah, so if job security makes the difference I’ll do a deal with you. Most public sector employees would love to get rid of the 20% who are crap at their jobs, but this Government has shown no interest in doing so (every public sector reform since 2010 has been excellent at making good people leave and doing nothing to crap people). If we introduce such a system, can public sector workers get FS pay?
    No as by definition the public sector is always taxpayer funded and less prone to the growth or decline of businesses and the market economy as financial services is.

    There might be a case for some performance related pay and bonuses in the public sector like financial services in the private sector but generally unions are opposed to them wanting pay to rise equally for all. As unions are much stronger in the public than private sector now it therefore rarely happens
    You realise, of course, that automatic pay profession has gone outside of the NHS (and schools?) and “performance related pay” (bonuses too small to motivate but big enough to irritate when badly used) are now the status quo in the public sector? People stuck on the lowest salary point with no prospect of profession so they leave? And your understanding of unions and their relative power is clearly based entirely on Tory party slogans rather than negotiating with them.
    It hasn't really for the civil service and much of the NHS and schools and TfL etc they still get annual pay deals with unions involved in negotiations. If unions don't get the pay deals they want for their members they still often go on strike, see especially the RMT and London Underground.

    Unions oppose performance related pay on the whole and unions also oppose virtually every job cut. There are no unions in the financial sector however of any real significance, hence pay is more based on performance and bonuses with annual culls of the weakest performers a la Goldman Sachs
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Later peeps!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    biggles said:

    Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.

    I am old enough to remember when people decried NATO's WWIII plan as - hold the Fulda Gap for three days, then blow up the world.

    Yes, the positions are reversed from 1985. The red army isn’t going to surge over the border, instead it’s going to slowly limp into Poland or Estonia before being routed, and then the risk is the Russians go nuclear.
    And there's the paradox: it's unsafe to beat Russia.

    This also applies to sanctions: if they are too effective Putin will tell the Russian public they are an act of war justifying a nuclear response. And they probably will be too effective. And pig dog's supporters will tell us that we should have accepted his light touch approach to corruption among his immediate circle.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    biggles said:

    Unless there is some secret strategy we haven't seen yet, it looks increasingly likely that the only way Putin can win the war is by using thermobaric, chemical or tactical nuclear weapons to break the Ukrainians' will. It gives me hope but also a sense of real worry.

    I am old enough to remember when people decried NATO's WWIII plan as - hold the Fulda Gap for three days, then blow up the world.

    Yes, the positions are reversed from 1985. The red army isn’t going to surge over the border, instead it’s going to slowly limp into Poland or Estonia before being routed, and then the risk is the Russians go nuclear.
    I don't think that, with the war in Ukraine, Russia could attacks anything else, at the moment.

    I'm wondering what happens if the unthinkable happens - What if Ukraine pushes Russia back, at least in the North West ?
    What if they crossed the border?
    It's not impossible, nor unthinkable, at least for a limited time.
    One more possible escalation. Certainly by accident or reckless enthusiasm.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Doctors get paid more than the average person because they contribute more than the average person to things that matter - its simple really

    This doesn't really account for the financial services 'industry' who are handsomely renumerated while being a malignantly destructive to society.
    They invest in business which help them to grow, they are pivotal to the economy. Financial services is also high risk, high reward. If you make a lot of money for your firm you get paid a lot in return, if you don't you are out
    You must have worked in a different financial services sector to the one I worked in, Hyufd.
    I haven't but my father did for about 50 years.

    You can make a lot of money in financial services and as a stockbroker or banker if you in turn pull in money. However you are also more likely to lose your job if you don't.

    Hence while the average City worker is paid more than the average public sector worker, their job is generally less secure.

    There was discussion of GPs pay earlier. Plenty of GPs also make 6 figure salaries like those in financial services but they have more job security as well (albeit they have to do a lot of study and training to get their jobs in the first place)
    Ah, so if job security makes the difference I’ll do a deal with you. Most public sector employees would love to get rid of the 20% who are crap at their jobs, but this Government has shown no interest in doing so (every public sector reform since 2010 has been excellent at making good people leave and doing nothing to crap people). If we introduce such a system, can public sector workers get FS pay?
    No as by definition the public sector is always taxpayer funded and less prone to the growth or decline of businesses and the market economy as financial services is.

    There might be a case for some performance related pay and bonuses in the public sector like financial services in the private sector but generally unions are opposed to them wanting pay to rise equally for all. As unions are much stronger in the public than private sector now it therefore rarely happens
    You realise, of course, that automatic pay profession has gone outside of the NHS (and schools?) and “performance related pay” (bonuses too small to motivate but big enough to irritate when badly used) are now the status quo in the public sector? People stuck on the lowest salary point with no prospect of profession so they leave? And your understanding of unions and their relative power is clearly based entirely on Tory party slogans rather than negotiating with them.
    It hasn't really for the civil service and much of the NHS and schools and TfL etc they still get annual pay deals with unions involved in negotiations. If unions don't get the pay deals they want for their members they still often go on strike, see especially the RMT and London Underground.

    Unions oppose performance related pay on the whole and unions also oppose virtually every job cut. There are no unions in the financial sector however of any real significance, hence pay is more based on performance and bonuses with annual culls of the weakest performers a la Goldman Sachs
    And, consequently, a culture of cutting corners, ignoring rules and ignoring societal impact exists.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904
    biggles said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Betting post here. It might be worthwhile putting a few quid on laying Trump for next GOP nominee for 2024 and / or putting some money on other contenders such as DeSantis. Not so much for the rights or wrongs of whether he hasn’t condemned Putin enough, more for the stupidity of his comment that Putin was a “genius”. I think that comment is going to come back to haunt him, ahem, ‘bigly’ in the nomination race, especially if someone takes him on aggressively. DYOR.

    I won't because I already have a big (underwater) short on him but I do agree. Trump 2.0 is feeling less and less likely to me.
    His rivals need to really piss him off with a Trump style nickname.

    Moscow Donnie?

    Comrade Trump?

    Mini-Putin?

    Agent Orange?
    The Great Loser?
This discussion has been closed.