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How different pollsters ask the “best PM” question – politicalbetting.com

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  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    Was there a 'technological solution' on offer?
    I seem to recall it was theoretical.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Exactly all their boasting may come back to bite them yet again when proven to be no more than hot air and imagination.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you

    Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.

    This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?

    How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
    The PM overruled the security services to give a peerage to someone who has shown him any number of personal financial favours. That does not mean that he was bought by the Russians, just by Lebedev.
    I would much prefer it if we had a prime minister who had not been bought by anybody. You know, one whose first loyalty was to the British people.....
    We have a Prime Minister who was given the biggest mandate by the British people in 2019 since Blair in 2001 actually.

    56.4% of voters did NOT vote Tory.
    No Prime Minister has seen over 50% of voters vote for their government since Baldwin in 1935 (if you exclude Cameron in 2010 as voters did not know there would be a Tory-LD coalition until after polling day). So what? We elect our PMs and governments by FPTP not PR
    Then hopefully you will agree with me that FPTP is a load of shit!

    56.4% is a higher figure than the 55% who voted No at IndyRef, and the 51.9% who voted Leave in 2016.
    I voted for AV in 2011 just 67% of UK voters overall voted to keep FPTP
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited March 2022
    kle4 said:

    Putin should take heart that even under the Soviet Union some leaders were able to be removed without being killed. Malenkov almost lived to see the end of the Soviet Union and Khruschev was 'retired'.

    Even if it were possible to broker a deal allowing him to quietly withdraw to his dacha, the security guarantees that Putin would need would be impossible to fulfil. There would be just so many people from so many nations out to give him the Gaddafi treatment.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    Better that than the jackboot of the criminal gang of oligarchs running down south
    Morning Malc; still sunny in Ayrshire?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    That depends on the nature of the links.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    kle4 said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    That depends on the nature of the links.
    I am not sure what that means.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    What technological solution? It doesn't exist. Which is why your party was unwilling to wait for it to be implemented - they also know it doesn't exist.

    Again, you mention A16 as a solution. It is not.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    Funny guy. We were always sovereign and even more so after we actually left the EU. If we didn't want an internal border we would not have had one.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    I like the Ipsos MORI one. The choice at the GE is going to be BJ or SKS so let's find out which one people prefer.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    Was there a 'technological solution' on offer?
    I seem to recall it was theoretical.
    Enda Kelly seemed to think so, he was discussing this with the British government in late 2016, until he was replaced by Varadkar and his much more antagonistic approach.

    The idea was actually for something very similar to what the EU had been working on for its external borders, for a topical example between Poland and Ukraine - using trusted traders, advance notification of cargoes, random checks away from the border and intelligence on smuggling operations.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    Except that those who had such links were repeatedly warned about the dangers from the Russian bribery and subversion campaign. Not to mention the murder of Sasha Litvinenko and various others, the cyber campaign against UK targets, the Novichok poisoning that could have killed thousands and so on. Russia was identified as hostile at least 15 years ago, and this is not just a matter of conscience.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    I believe another distinguished PBer has mentioned Oz as a retirement destination for raddled, old bon viveurs? You might even be on the same plane!
    Haha, it would be mainly so my GF gets paid a decent salary for her Doctoring.

    But it's rather like all the Americans who said they'd move to Canada if Trump got in. I'm always going to come back to Scotland.
    Never seen or heard of a poor Doctor. Given they are at the top of the salary tree I am not sure many people will have much sympathy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    Funny guy. We were always sovereign and even more so after we actually left the EU. If we didn't want an internal border we would not have had one.
    We could not have had one but the EU then insisted that meant No Deal, so blame the EU
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited March 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    "Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling
    As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/06/obsessed-frightened-wakeful-war-in-ukraine-sparks-return-of-doomscrolling

    Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?

    First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)

    Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.

    I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Cold wind out there, but the garden needs my attention more than the doom-scrolling. Laaers....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited March 2022

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you

    Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.

    This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?

    How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
    The Ukranians rate British assistance highly, and their opinion is the one that matters.

    It's OK for Boris Johnson to be corrupt because the UK is supplying Ukraine with valuable military support is quite a take!

    We all know that he's corrupt and a charlatan. But, when it comes to the Ukraine, the government has done a good job.

    The government has done a good job on some fronts. On others it has done very poorly.

    Tolerance of corruption leads to more corruption. That's how it becomes endemic. And once it is endemic democracy effectively ceases to function.

    To an extent it is how low we set the expectation bar.

    Newly minted military strategic genius Johnson when confronted by an attractive Ukrainian lady journalist stuck to the NATO line. Good boy! We should expect nothing less of a NATO Leader. Our earlier fear might have been gibbering FS Johnson would have immediately agreed to a NFZ on misinterpreting her tears as bedroom eyes.

    Likewise, do we expect the Johnson Government to do the right thing over Russian donors to the Conservative Party? Our expectations are not high, so anything they do invoke seems like a big deal
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited March 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    What technological solution? It doesn't exist. Which is why your party was unwilling to wait for it to be implemented - they also know it doesn't exist.

    Again, you mention A16 as a solution. It is not.
    It is and I understand the government will likely invoke Article 16 later this year if talks with the EU do not remove the Irish Sea border anyway. Unionist parties in NI of course very much want the government to invoke Art 16
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.

    We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    edited March 2022
    Is the single group who has befouled their reputation the most the literal Kremlinologists? Even now we’re told that Putin has over dosed on plastic surgery, has Parkinson’s, is senile or has a wee touch of cancer, and is implementing a long planned strategy, has gone mad or is just very, very angry. His armed forces are either on the verge of mutiny & dissolution or relentlessly applying pressure to the defenceless, thin-shelled nut of Ukraine.

    The parameters currently are between the Wizard of Oz, ie a wizened old man hiding behind the curtain, or a dead eyed psychopath with the world’s fate in his hands. Of course both extremes and everything in between has control of thousands of nuclear warheads; in the circumstances a knowledgable appraisal of the real Putin would be most welcome.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you

    Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.

    This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?

    How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
    The PM overruled the security services to give a peerage to someone who has shown him any number of personal financial favours. That does not mean that he was bought by the Russians, just by Lebedev.
    I would much prefer it if we had a prime minister who had not been bought by anybody. You know, one whose first loyalty was to the British people.....
    We have a Prime Minister who was given the biggest mandate by the British people in 2019 since Blair in 2001 actually.

    56.4% of voters did NOT vote Tory.
    No Prime Minister has seen over 50% of voters vote for their government since Baldwin in 1935 (if you exclude Cameron in 2010 as voters did not know there would be a Tory-LD coalition until after polling day). So what? We elect our PMs and governments by FPTP not PR
    Then hopefully you will agree with me that FPTP is a load of shit!

    56.4% is a higher figure than the 55% who voted No at IndyRef, and the 51.9% who voted Leave in 2016.
    I voted for AV in 2011 just 67% of UK voters overall voted to keep FPTP
    You are a LibDem!

    AV ain't proportional.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    Was there a 'technological solution' on offer?
    I seem to recall it was theoretical.
    Enda Kelly seemed to think so, he was discussing this with the British government in late 2016, until he was replaced by Varadkar and his much more antagonistic approach.

    The idea was actually for something very similar to what the EU had been working on for its external borders, for a topical example between Poland and Ukraine - using trusted traders, advance notification of cargoes, random checks away from the border and intelligence on smuggling operations.
    Thanks; that was rather what I recalled. Possible but not yet technically capable of being implemented.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you

    Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.

    This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?

    How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
    The PM overruled the security services to give a peerage to someone who has shown him any number of personal financial favours. That does not mean that he was bought by the Russians, just by Lebedev.
    I would much prefer it if we had a prime minister who had not been bought by anybody. You know, one whose first loyalty was to the British people.....
    We have a Prime Minister who was given the biggest mandate by the British people in 2019 since Blair in 2001 actually.

    56.4% of voters did NOT vote Tory.
    No Prime Minister has seen over 50% of voters vote for their government since Baldwin in 1935 (if you exclude Cameron in 2010 as voters did not know there would be a Tory-LD coalition until after polling day). So what? We elect our PMs and governments by FPTP not PR
    Then hopefully you will agree with me that FPTP is a load of shit!

    56.4% is a higher figure than the 55% who voted No at IndyRef, and the 51.9% who voted Leave in 2016.
    I voted for AV in 2011 just 67% of UK voters overall voted to keep FPTP
    You are a LibDem!

    AV ain't proportional.
    HY voted for babies to die. Well I never.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited March 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you

    Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.

    This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?

    How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
    The PM overruled the security services to give a peerage to someone who has shown him any number of personal financial favours. That does not mean that he was bought by the Russians, just by Lebedev.
    I would much prefer it if we had a prime minister who had not been bought by anybody. You know, one whose first loyalty was to the British people.....
    We have a Prime Minister who was given the biggest mandate by the British people in 2019 since Blair in 2001 actually.

    56.4% of voters did NOT vote Tory.
    No Prime Minister has seen over 50% of voters vote for their government since Baldwin in 1935 (if you exclude Cameron in 2010 as voters did not know there would be a Tory-LD coalition until after polling day). So what? We elect our PMs and governments by FPTP not PR
    Then hopefully you will agree with me that FPTP is a load of shit!

    56.4% is a higher figure than the 55% who voted No at IndyRef, and the 51.9% who voted Leave in 2016.
    I voted for AV in 2011 just 67% of UK voters overall voted to keep FPTP
    You are a LibDem!

    AV ain't proportional.
    AV ensures however the governing party has got over 50% after preferences which was the original issue
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813

    Andy_JS said:

    "Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling
    As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/06/obsessed-frightened-wakeful-war-in-ukraine-sparks-return-of-doomscrolling

    Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?

    First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)

    Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitor/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.

    I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
    Not sure. But your point about making Russia inward looking due to the lack of mixing is spot on. The world needs to mix not isolate. Hence my point below about nothing wring with Russian links. We also shot ourselves in the foot by leaving the EU in this regard. People are similar the world over .politicians take us down different and dangerous paths
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874



    I think it would have depended on how much damage the Saxons had done to both invaders. If not a lot, then I think William might have tried for the lot. If bother armies weakened, then I think they'd have settled for a split.
    And that might, of course, have led to a Greater 'Scotland".

    Surely this what if stuff cannot go back too far as too many event forks afterwards. Chaos theory?
    That's very true - trying to "imagine" a world 1000 years (nearly) after one significant point of divergence (POD) is impossible. Trying to do counterfactuals with recent events is by definition easier as most of the key players would still be around and we can have a reasonable guess at their motivation.

    Even so, try describing what would have happened if there had been no coronavirus for example? It's not easy. Would Trump have won a second term ?

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Farooq said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    Christo Grozev linked to an alleged letter from an FSB insider on the Ukraine war, and without commenting on authenticity, it's a very interesting read. I translated and lightly edited it. Starts with a bit of whimper on agri policy, but it sure picks up.

    https://twitter.com/mwr_dbm/status/1500317789390876672

    In another thread the conclusion is “quite probably real, or if not a better fake than we’ve seen before” (the longer the fake, the greater the chance for mistakes - this one is long)

    Literally just came here to post the same letter, though in an alternate translation:

    https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1500301348780199937
    A pertinent point is that the logistics - and specifically the roads - cannot cope with the size of convoys that would be needed to supply the size of force that Russia would need to deploy inside Ukraine to achieve its objectives.
    Suggests that having a modern, efficient road system may not be a strategic advantage in Eastern Europe.
    The issue with the roads is that one very burnt out tank takes a lot of road out - and it’s one of many things Russia isn’t in a position to fix as the supplies aren’t there
    Sure, but having several well paved dual carriageways with hard shoulders leading to your largest city would make a difference. Not that it’s relevant except in HYUFD’s fever dreams but Glasgow has around five (though some may argue with well paved).
    You'd only have to knock out the M74 though. The Army wouldn't go up the east coast because they'd be worried about the Tyne tunnel penalty charge
    I fear that you’re dismissing the Faslane beachhead and the loyalist Edinburgh enclave far too easily.
    Don't give him ideas.

    Having said that, the Moray coast was apparently a potential Op Sea Lion target, littered with beach defenses. You'd have to garrison those, too.
    All the way round the Aberdeenshire coast too. Inverbervie, Newburgh, Cruden Bay, Peterhead.
    Were they expecting Scot Nat support?
    No, Tory and Unionist support from the likes of Archibald Ramsay.

    Re Sealion: there's an interesting paper on one of the stop lines which I came across recently, to back up the beach defences:


    https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/library/browse/details.xhtml?recordId=3187928&recordType=Journal
    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/environment/2278883/the-night-the-north-east-feared-the-nazis-were-invading-and-the-battle-front-was-on-our-doorstep/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    kle4 said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    That depends on the nature of the links.
    One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.

    We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.

    They may not all be bad guys.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I'm coming round to just getting a second referendum out the way.

    Remain = it's settled, we can have normal political debate again and we get inward investment.

    Leave = a deeply entertaining battle with Westminster which is similar to the nonsense we have to put up with anyway. Sturgeon gets toppled and Angus MacNeil leads us to "hard independence". I move to Australia.
    Sounds good to me , remember to wear factor 50
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    What technological solution? It doesn't exist. Which is why your party was unwilling to wait for it to be implemented - they also know it doesn't exist.

    Again, you mention A16 as a solution. It is not.
    It is and I understand the government will likely invoke Article 16 later this year if talks with the EU do not remove the Irish Sea border anyway. Unionist parties in NI of course very much want the government to invoke Art 16
    NI voted to REMAIN by 56% to 44%.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you

    Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.

    This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?

    How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
    The PM overruled the security services to give a peerage to someone who has shown him any number of personal financial favours. That does not mean that he was bought by the Russians, just by Lebedev.
    I would much prefer it if we had a prime minister who had not been bought by anybody. You know, one whose first loyalty was to the British people.....
    We have a Prime Minister who was given the biggest mandate by the British people in 2019 since Blair in 2001 actually.

    56.4% of voters did NOT vote Tory.
    No Prime Minister has seen over 50% of voters vote for their government since Baldwin in 1935 (if you exclude Cameron in 2010 as voters did not know there would be a Tory-LD coalition until after polling day). So what? We elect our PMs and governments by FPTP not PR
    Then hopefully you will agree with me that FPTP is a load of shit!

    56.4% is a higher figure than the 55% who voted No at IndyRef, and the 51.9% who voted Leave in 2016.
    I voted for AV in 2011 just 67% of UK voters overall voted to keep FPTP
    You are a LibDem!

    AV ain't proportional.
    AV ensures however the governing party has got over 50% after preferences which was the original issue
    No it doesn't.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,818
    edited March 2022

    Is the single group who has befouled their reputation the most the literal Kremlinologists? Even now we’re told that Putin has over dosed on plastic surgery, has Parkinson’s, is senile or has a wee touch of cancer, and is implementing a long planned strategy, has gone mad or is just very, very angry. His armed forces are either on the verge of mutiny & dissolution or relentlessly applying pressure to the defenceless, thin-shelled nut of Ukraine.

    The parameters currently are between the Wizard of Oz, ie a wizened old man hiding behind the curtain, or a dead eyed psychopath with the world’s fate in his hands. Of course both extremes and everything in between has control of thousands of nuclear warheads; in the circumstances a knowledgable appraisal of the real Putin would be most welcome.

    To me the most likely scenario is the most underplayed. His career was as a spy, growing up in the cold war. He was therefore very good at re-inventing the cold war and undermined and divided the West. This gave him massive overconfidence and near unlimited power within Russia, which led him to overestimate his and Russia's abilities in a hot war.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR*
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186
    * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you

    Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.

    This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?

    How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
    The PM overruled the security services to give a peerage to someone who has shown him any number of personal financial favours. That does not mean that he was bought by the Russians, just by Lebedev.
    I would much prefer it if we had a prime minister who had not been bought by anybody. You know, one whose first loyalty was to the British people.....
    We have a Prime Minister who was given the biggest mandate by the British people in 2019 since Blair in 2001 actually.

    56.4% of voters did NOT vote Tory.
    No Prime Minister has seen over 50% of voters vote for their government since Baldwin in 1935 (if you exclude Cameron in 2010 as voters did not know there would be a Tory-LD coalition until after polling day). So what? We elect our PMs and governments by FPTP not PR
    Then hopefully you will agree with me that FPTP is a load of shit!

    56.4% is a higher figure than the 55% who voted No at IndyRef, and the 51.9% who voted Leave in 2016.
    We do not hear such whining when the Tories take over the country with a minority of the vote.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen

    Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism

    It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving

    The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship

    We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU

    I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    What technological solution? It doesn't exist. Which is why your party was unwilling to wait for it to be implemented - they also know it doesn't exist.

    Again, you mention A16 as a solution. It is not.
    It is and I understand the government will likely invoke Article 16 later this year if talks with the EU do not remove the Irish Sea border anyway. Unionist parties in NI of course very much want the government to invoke Art 16
    And? Article 16 is the *start* of a process. It is not itself a new arrangement.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    LOL, given the links were all laundering their loot for them and selling them golden passports. On your bike.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,818

    kle4 said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    That depends on the nature of the links.
    One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.

    We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.

    They may not all be bad guys.
    Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?

    Just maybe we could aim there?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    edited March 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    Was there a 'technological solution' on offer?
    I seem to recall it was theoretical.
    imaginary in the mind of "Peppa Pig" Johnson even
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Andy_JS said:

    "Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling
    As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/06/obsessed-frightened-wakeful-war-in-ukraine-sparks-return-of-doomscrolling

    Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?

    First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)

    Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.

    I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
    "Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?"

    I think so, although the timing may have changed. AIUI Putin's rhetoric has been for Ukraine to be under Russia's thumb for many years - and well before the Crimea and Donbass invasions. He tried it politically, and when his guys got booted out, took Crimea.

    A full invasion has been on the cards for years. Only the timing was in question.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    malcolmg said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    LOL, given the links were all laundering their loot for them and selling them golden passports. On your bike.
    Well as a bone headed nationalist I would expect you to like insular
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    I understand Lebedev has come out against the war in The Evening Standard. How could he not if people were going to keep buying his paper? If oligarchs are prepared to turn against Putin, fine. But those who are not ought to be treated with the highest suspicion. How Lebedev got nominated for a peerage deserves the utmost scrutiny.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    Better that than the jackboot of the criminal gang of oligarchs running down south
    Morning Malc; still sunny in Ayrshire?
    Morning OKC, yes blue sky and sunshine again, been a great spell. Cold though it was -2 this morning when I filled the bird feeders and broke the ice on their water bath. Beautiful if you are in the sun though.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    kle4 said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    That depends on the nature of the links.
    One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.

    We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.

    They may not all be bad guys.
    Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?

    Just maybe we could aim there?
    Indeed. But my point stands.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited March 2022

    Andy_JS said:

    "Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling
    As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/06/obsessed-frightened-wakeful-war-in-ukraine-sparks-return-of-doomscrolling

    Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?

    First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)

    Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.

    I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
    There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation.
    Would the West have been so united but for COVID?
    It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend.
    So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it.
    Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,874
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling
    As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/06/obsessed-frightened-wakeful-war-in-ukraine-sparks-return-of-doomscrolling

    It's a fair point. In the first months of Covid obsessing over comparitive stats was draining. Here's hoping for some truly stupid news to give us an opportunity to laugh.
    I see that the Threads bombing scene on Youtube has received tens of thousands of hits over the past fortnight.
    That'll be me. I've got it in my favourites......
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    What technological solution? It doesn't exist. Which is why your party was unwilling to wait for it to be implemented - they also know it doesn't exist.

    Again, you mention A16 as a solution. It is not.
    It is and I understand the government will likely invoke Article 16 later this year if talks with the EU do not remove the Irish Sea border anyway. Unionist parties in NI of course very much want the government to invoke Art 16
    You have decided tacitly to ignore anyone in NI who is not fully signed up to Johnsonian Loyalism.

    So on your terms, Republicans and those Unionists who don't much care for politics and just want to get on with their lives should be ignored.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,818

    kle4 said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    That depends on the nature of the links.
    One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.

    We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.

    They may not all be bad guys.
    Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?

    Just maybe we could aim there?
    Indeed. But my point stands.
    Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    What technological solution? It doesn't exist. Which is why your party was unwilling to wait for it to be implemented - they also know it doesn't exist.

    Again, you mention A16 as a solution. It is not.
    It is and I understand the government will likely invoke Article 16 later this year if talks with the EU do not remove the Irish Sea border anyway. Unionist parties in NI of course very much want the government to invoke Art 16
    You have decided tacitly to ignore anyone in NI who is not fully signed up to Johnsonian Loyalism.

    So on your terms, Republicans and those Unionists who don't much care for politics and just want to get on with their lives should be ignored.
    He also seems to forget that 56% of NI voters voted Remain.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078
    malcolmg said:

    Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.

    We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
    Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Andy_JS said:

    "Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling
    As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/06/obsessed-frightened-wakeful-war-in-ukraine-sparks-return-of-doomscrolling

    Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?

    First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)

    Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.

    I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
    If people's mental health is shot watching the BBC news from the comfort of their armchair whilst scoffing tea and biscuits and central heating purring away, WTF will they be like if they have to actually do something. This country is pathetic nowadays, god help it if there ever comes a time they are faced with what Ukraine is facing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    What technological solution? It doesn't exist. Which is why your party was unwilling to wait for it to be implemented - they also know it doesn't exist.

    Again, you mention A16 as a solution. It is not.
    It is and I understand the government will likely invoke Article 16 later this year if talks with the EU do not remove the Irish Sea border anyway. Unionist parties in NI of course very much want the government to invoke Art 16
    You have decided tacitly to ignore anyone in NI who is not fully signed up to Johnsonian Loyalism.

    So on your terms, Republicans and those Unionists who don't much care for politics and just want to get on with their lives should be ignored.
    No, the UK government could have ignored Nationalists in NI and gone to No Deal post Brexit and imposed a hard border in Ireland.

    It didn't. However the EU and Dublin did not reciprocate as they decided to demand a hard border in the Irish Sea ignoring the views of most Unionists in NI
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    kle4 said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    That depends on the nature of the links.
    One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.

    We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.

    They may not all be bad guys.
    Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?

    Just maybe we could aim there?
    Indeed. But my point stands.
    Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
    That was not my point. It is the assumption that everyone in a group *has* to be guilty.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    ..

    Is the single group who has befouled their reputation the most the literal Kremlinologists? Even now we’re told that Putin has over dosed on plastic surgery, has Parkinson’s, is senile or has a wee touch of cancer, and is implementing a long planned strategy, has gone mad or is just very, very angry. His armed forces are either on the verge of mutiny & dissolution or relentlessly applying pressure to the defenceless, thin-shelled nut of Ukraine.

    The parameters currently are between the Wizard of Oz, ie a wizened old man hiding behind the curtain, or a dead eyed psychopath with the world’s fate in his hands. Of course both extremes and everything in between has control of thousands of nuclear warheads; in the circumstances a knowledgable appraisal of the real Putin would be most welcome.

    :lol:

    My plastic surgery theory is nailed on, though I am alleging injectables, not the full scalpel treatment (though that's possible too).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen

    Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism

    It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving

    The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship

    We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU

    I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
    Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you

    Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.

    This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?

    How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
    The PM overruled the security services to give a peerage to someone who has shown him any number of personal financial favours. That does not mean that he was bought by the Russians, just by Lebedev.
    I would much prefer it if we had a prime minister who had not been bought by anybody. You know, one whose first loyalty was to the British people.....
    We have a Prime Minister who was given the biggest mandate by the British people in 2019 since Blair in 2001 actually.

    56.4% of voters did NOT vote Tory.
    No Prime Minister has seen over 50% of voters vote for their government since Baldwin in 1935 (if you exclude Cameron in 2010 as voters did not know there would be a Tory-LD coalition until after polling day). So what? We elect our PMs and governments by FPTP not PR
    Then hopefully you will agree with me that FPTP is a load of shit!

    56.4% is a higher figure than the 55% who voted No at IndyRef, and the 51.9% who voted Leave in 2016.
    I voted for AV in 2011 just 67% of UK voters overall voted to keep FPTP
    You are a LibDem!

    AV ain't proportional.
    AV ensures however the governing party has got over 50% after preferences which was the original issue
    No it doesn't.
    It generally does, most Australian governments get over 50% after preferences and Australia has AV
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    kle4 said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    That depends on the nature of the links.
    One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.

    We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.

    They may not all be bad guys.
    If they are oligarch's they had to be dodgy to make the cash, you can bet almost every one of them is bad, but given the cash they have the Tories will not do much to stop them , be lots of hot air with time to get their funds to other tax havens so the Tories gravy train is not upset.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,818

    kle4 said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    That depends on the nature of the links.
    One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.

    We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.

    They may not all be bad guys.
    Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?

    Just maybe we could aim there?
    Indeed. But my point stands.
    Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
    That was not my point. It is the assumption that everyone in a group *has* to be guilty.
    To me that is a statement of the bleeding obvious, not a point. If people were going around saying all Russians are guilty then perhaps it could qualify as a point. I have not read anyone on here saying that.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    https://mobile.twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1500301348780199937

    Already posted but utterly riveting letter from FSB whistle blower on Russia's current nightmare. Still riveting even if fake

    My current forecast is Putin is going to take the war to the west, and make it about sanctions, by mid next week. Relax sanctions or it's nukes, initially tactical, initially in Ukraine
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Cicero said:

    malcolmg said:

    Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.

    We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
    Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
    It is only a matter of when , not if. The old codgers who are last remaining spineless unionists are popping their clogs fast. Anyone under 50 has only lived under the cosh and so when a decent politician is running the country and forces a referendum, it will be independence.
    Can you tell me why the Ukranian's do not want to be Russian's again.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    One thing I don't understand is how the British armed forces, amongst others in NATO don't have more Bayraktars. If they were EU or US produced at 20 times the price we'd have more I expect
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    Funny guy. We were always sovereign and even more so after we actually left the EU. If we didn't want an internal border we would not have had one.
    We could not have had one but the EU then insisted that meant No Deal, so blame the EU
    That genuinely must be one on the most pathetic things I have read. Are we sovereign or not. You are saying some foreign entity made us do something we didn't want to do.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Farooq said:

    King Cole, it's a fascinating counterfactual to consider.

    Prior to the Norman Conquest, the leading external cultural influence on the British Isles was Viking.

    Also, from a French perspective, would a seriously weakened Normandy have allowed for more rapid expansion of the tiny realm the king of France held at this time, or weakened the monarchy even more? Would another Norse leader have sought the French throne?

    That first claim is extremely dubious. Christianity was probably a more important cultural import, and the papacy exerted considerable (indirect) power. Indeed, Pope Alexander II was very much a part of William's invasion plans, sanctifying the conquest before the Normans had even set sail.
    Christianity was well established in these islands by 1000 AD. The Pope's intervention was, IIRC, because Harold Godwinson broke his 'holy oath'.
    Our wool trade was largely with what we now call Holland and Belgium, AIUI.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    I understand Lebedev has come out against the war in The Evening Standard. How could he not if people were going to keep buying his paper? If oligarchs are prepared to turn against Putin, fine. But those who are not ought to be treated with the highest suspicion. How Lebedev got nominated for a peerage deserves the utmost scrutiny.

    Even worse than that, the Standard is now a free sheet - so his customers are the advertisers, companies with a reputation to uphold and much more likely to withhold money from him than millions of random evening commuters.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    edited March 2022

    malcolmg said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    LOL, given the links were all laundering their loot for them and selling them golden passports. On your bike.
    Well as a bone headed nationalist I would expect you to like insular
    As a money grubbing Tory I am not surprised you want to keep the laundry open 24x7.
    PS: assume you are not boneheaded in thinking that Russians can waltz in here with wheelbarrows full of cash yet a Ukrian grandmother bombed out of her house and country is not allowed in to recover with her family.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Is the single group who has befouled their reputation the most the literal Kremlinologists? Even now we’re told that Putin has over dosed on plastic surgery, has Parkinson’s, is senile or has a wee touch of cancer, and is implementing a long planned strategy, has gone mad or is just very, very angry. His armed forces are either on the verge of mutiny & dissolution or relentlessly applying pressure to the defenceless, thin-shelled nut of Ukraine.

    The parameters currently are between the Wizard of Oz, ie a wizened old man hiding behind the curtain, or a dead eyed psychopath with the world’s fate in his hands. Of course both extremes and everything in between has control of thousands of nuclear warheads; in the circumstances a knowledgable appraisal of the real Putin would be most welcome.

    The man to ask is George W Bush. He sussed him on their very first meeting.

    "I found him very straightforward and trustworthy… I was able to get a sense of his soul."

    That 'soul' again.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you

    Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.

    This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?

    How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
    The PM overruled the security services to give a peerage to someone who has shown him any number of personal financial favours. That does not mean that he was bought by the Russians, just by Lebedev.
    I would much prefer it if we had a prime minister who had not been bought by anybody. You know, one whose first loyalty was to the British people.....
    We have a Prime Minister who was given the biggest mandate by the British people in 2019 since Blair in 2001 actually.

    56.4% of voters did NOT vote Tory.
    No Prime Minister has seen over 50% of voters vote for their government since Baldwin in 1935 (if you exclude Cameron in 2010 as voters did not know there would be a Tory-LD coalition until after polling day). So what? We elect our PMs and governments by FPTP not PR
    Then hopefully you will agree with me that FPTP is a load of shit!

    56.4% is a higher figure than the 55% who voted No at IndyRef, and the 51.9% who voted Leave in 2016.
    I voted for AV in 2011 just 67% of UK voters overall voted to keep FPTP
    You are a LibDem!

    AV ain't proportional.
    AV ensures however the governing party has got over 50% after preferences which was the original issue
    No it doesn't.
    It generally does, most Australian governments get over 50% after preferences and Australia has AV
    So we've moved from 'ensures' to 'generally does'.

    Progress.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:


    Enda Kelly seemed to think so, he was discussing this with the British government in late 2016, until he was replaced by Varadkar and his much more antagonistic approach.

    This old saw used to get wheeled out quite regularly during the dark days 2018-9. It turned out to be yet another David Davis lie.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    malcolmg said:

    Cicero said:

    malcolmg said:

    Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.

    We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
    Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
    It is only a matter of when , not if. The old codgers who are last remaining spineless unionists are popping their clogs fast. Anyone under 50 has only lived under the cosh and so when a decent politician is running the country and forces a referendum, it will be independence.
    Can you tell me why the Ukranian's do not want to be Russian's again.
    Zero chance of Sturgeon forcing a referendum
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419

    Is the single group who has befouled their reputation the most the literal Kremlinologists? Even now we’re told that Putin has over dosed on plastic surgery, has Parkinson’s, is senile or has a wee touch of cancer, and is implementing a long planned strategy, has gone mad or is just very, very angry. His armed forces are either on the verge of mutiny & dissolution or relentlessly applying pressure to the defenceless, thin-shelled nut of Ukraine.

    The parameters currently are between the Wizard of Oz, ie a wizened old man hiding behind the curtain, or a dead eyed psychopath with the world’s fate in his hands. Of course both extremes and everything in between has control of thousands of nuclear warheads; in the circumstances a knowledgable appraisal of the real Putin would be most welcome.

    To me the most likely scenario is the most underplayed. His career was as a spy, growing up in the cold war. He was therefore very good at re-inventing the cold war and undermined and divided the West. This gave him massive overconfidence and near unlimited power within Russia, which led him to overestimate his and Russia's abilities in a hot war.
    Really? Russian forces have been active in lots of war zones, like Syria, grinding out progress slowly, with not much finesse, and with a lot of destruction, and with various planes getting shot down by Western-provided weapons. I don't think Putin would be under any illusions as to the invincibility of his forces. I think perhaps the difference in Ukraine is the total absence of support (or even neutrality) on the ground. In Syria there is very strong support for Assad. Perhaps Putin was expecting a 50/50 situation here. Instead the entire populace wants him to fuck off.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    You do not seem to take on board that Russia's war on an innocent Ukraine has changed everything and certainly any idea that the UK will serve A16 on the EU is confined to the right wing zealots and is not going to happen

    Boris has done well so far and is feted across Ukraine and the Baltic States and seems to be receiving plaudits generally but of course those with a visceral hatred of him, largely because of Brexit, will continue with their onslaught of criticism

    It was interesting that when Sophie Raworth asked Starmer on her programme this morning whether he continues in his demand for Boris to resign he said that though he has differences with Boris now is the time for unity, and maybe some on here should agree with Starmer who certainly is improving

    The evidence of cooperation between UK - EU - US - NATO has been extraordinary and time to stop this UK v EU narrative as we go forward united in protecting the Baltic states and growing closer in our relationship

    We can still be an independent country but move closer to a Norway style relationship and of course be very much a military partner with the EU

    I prefer a conservative government in 24, but if Labour do win I am not unduly concerned as hopefully many far right conservative mps will have lost their seats and of course any government in 24 will have little or no money to spend and will face very hard decisions
    Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support
    Sorry but you just do not get it

    By 2024 so much will have changed that A16 will be long since gone as an issue, and whether it is Boris or his successor we will be developing a whole new relationship with Europe on defence, security and trade to our mutual advantage
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Car crash for Raab on LBC, stuttering , bumbling idiot
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    edited March 2022
    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling
    As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/06/obsessed-frightened-wakeful-war-in-ukraine-sparks-return-of-doomscrolling

    Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?

    First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)

    Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.

    I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
    There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation.
    Would the West have been so united but for COVID?
    It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend.
    So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it.
    Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
    yes good argument , probably right. All I would say is i dont think the world is in a safer place two weeks on because of those actions. If the west had "dithered" this might be near resolution and less deadly- even locally.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    kinabalu said:

    Is the single group who has befouled their reputation the most the literal Kremlinologists? Even now we’re told that Putin has over dosed on plastic surgery, has Parkinson’s, is senile or has a wee touch of cancer, and is implementing a long planned strategy, has gone mad or is just very, very angry. His armed forces are either on the verge of mutiny & dissolution or relentlessly applying pressure to the defenceless, thin-shelled nut of Ukraine.

    The parameters currently are between the Wizard of Oz, ie a wizened old man hiding behind the curtain, or a dead eyed psychopath with the world’s fate in his hands. Of course both extremes and everything in between has control of thousands of nuclear warheads; in the circumstances a knowledgable appraisal of the real Putin would be most welcome.

    The man to ask is George W Bush. He sussed him on their very first meeting.

    "I found him very straightforward and trustworthy… I was able to get a sense of his soul."

    That 'soul' again.
    Part of Putin's appeal has been the attempt to revive Christianity in Russia.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    HYUFD said:


    Even if the Ukraine situation delays things, on the swing in Birmingham Erdington last week there would be a hung parliament in 2024 after the boundary changes. The DUP would again hold the balance of power with the Tories largest party and the DUP would demand the Tories invoke Art 16 for their support

    I'm not quite sure taking a by-election with a 27% turnout as indicative of the whole country is wise though I appreciate you may derive some comfort from the Con-Lab swing being just 4.5%.

    I didn't go around after North Shropshire claiming the 34.2% from Conservative to LD would be indicative of the next election (and that was from just a 46% turnout).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling
    As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/06/obsessed-frightened-wakeful-war-in-ukraine-sparks-return-of-doomscrolling

    Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?

    First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)

    Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.

    I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
    There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation.
    Would the West have been so united but for COVID?
    It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend.
    So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it.
    Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
    Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    LOL, given the links were all laundering their loot for them and selling them golden passports. On your bike.
    Well as a bone headed nationalist I would expect you to like insular
    As a money grubbing Tory I am not surprised you want to keep the laundry open 24x7.
    PS: assume you are not boneheaded in thinking that Russians can waltz in here with wheelbarrows full of cash yet a Ukrian grandmother bombed out of her house and country is not allowed in to recover with her family.
    I am not a Tory ,far from it on a lot of issues
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,785
    Mr. G, do you really think it's a fair analogy to compare the UK with Russia and Scotland with Ukraine?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I don't understand is how the British armed forces, amongst others in NATO don't have more Bayraktars. If they were EU or US produced at 20 times the price we'd have more I expect

    We will have insisted we build our own badly at 20 times the price.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:


    Enda Kelly seemed to think so, he was discussing this with the British government in late 2016, until he was replaced by Varadkar and his much more antagonistic approach.

    This old saw used to get wheeled out quite regularly during the dark days 2018-9. It turned out to be yet another David Davis lie.
    If I disliked anyone in politics it would be that Simon Coveney shitbag.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    Cicero said:

    malcolmg said:

    Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.

    We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
    Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
    'Thats kind of why we won´t go independent'

    Who is this 'we' of whom you speak?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cicero said:

    malcolmg said:

    Before we talk about another Sindy referendum I think we should get clarity on the SNP's position with regards to Nato.

    We will worry about all the small stuff once we are independent.
    Thats kind of why we won´t go independent. The lack of clarity on the "small" stuff. It is weak and its pretty stupid to fail to address critical policy areas and then say to the voters "trust us". So, keep this going Malc and then you can never win.
    It is only a matter of when , not if. The old codgers who are last remaining spineless unionists are popping their clogs fast. Anyone under 50 has only lived under the cosh and so when a decent politician is running the country and forces a referendum, it will be independence.
    Can you tell me why the Ukranian's do not want to be Russian's again.
    Zero chance of Sturgeon forcing a referendum
    Tell me something I don't know, did you actually read my post, I said "DECENT" politician.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    edited March 2022

    I understand Lebedev has come out against the war in The Evening Standard. How could he not if people were going to keep buying his paper? If oligarchs are prepared to turn against Putin, fine. But those who are not ought to be treated with the highest suspicion. How Lebedev got nominated for a peerage deserves the utmost scrutiny.

    i think it needs to be more nuanced - A Russian with influence is less of an asset if he turns against Putin publicly (as he will be ignored ) ,better to act as a go-between and calmer of things.We really dont need pitchfork mobs (even if just on social media) going after each wealthy Russian at this stage (Michael Gove shoudl get a grip as well)
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    kinabalu said:

    I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR*
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186
    * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)

    Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    kinabalu said:

    I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR*
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186
    * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)

    It is a good piece.

    I am not sure your *interpretation of Putin versus the Soviet Union works too well. The fear in the 1980s for nuclear Armageddon was greater than it is today. That is not to say we shouldn't be more fearful than we are.

    I am not sure a Politburo of nutters is much less frightening than one absolute header.

    With hindsight Russia needed a post-Soviet Marshall Plan.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Obsessed? Frightened? Wakeful? War in Ukraine sparks return of doomscrolling
    As happened with Covid, the compulsive need to keep up with the Russian invasion is taking a toll on our mental health"

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/06/obsessed-frightened-wakeful-war-in-ukraine-sparks-return-of-doomscrolling

    Would the invasion of Ukraine even have happened without COVID ?

    First, COVID seems to have take a toll on everyone's mental health (including Putin's)

    Second, over the last 2 years, the Russians have been largely unable to travel to the EU & there have been very few foreign visitors/tourists to Russia because of COVID. It has made Russia very inward looking. This helps in preparing population for war, in making them believe they are encircled by enemies.

    I don't think it is coincidence that the long-running argument about the Donbas has burst into flames now, as COVID comes to an end.
    There is another aspect. Which may explain the miscalculation.
    Would the West have been so united but for COVID?
    It showed that governments can actually do unthinkable things virtually overnight. House the homeless? We did it in a weekend.
    So. Germany upend decades of foreign policy in days? Sure. No need for policy papers, years of research, arguments, discussion, endless meetings at all levels. Just do it.
    Plus. Our limbic system is accustomed to being on high alert to existential threats. So, act not dither.
    Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?
    Biden had practically given Putin carte blanche for 'an incursion', so why he didn't concentrate all his forces on a smaller land grab to secure the Crimea water supply and a land corridor to the breakaway regions, but instead went completely tonto is completely beyond me.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Morning all! I posted the Times splash on Boris being a security risk when they tweeted it - massive. Having scanned the overnight thread it seems to be desperately ignored by some of you

    Remember that after Russia poisoned the Skripals with a WMD on British soil, Big Dog skipped security briefings to meet Lebedev senior the KGB man. And then ignores security concerns about ennobling Lebedev junior who gets all his money from his dad the KGB man. Who gets the security services *to withdraw* their problematic concerns about Lebedev junior.

    This is the problem. The Tories can't act properly against Russia because they shill for Russia. The press reposts how the Tories are "delighted" with the Ukraine was as being a great opportunity to move on from problems and portray the PM as Thatcher. "Delighted"?

    How many anti tank weapons do we actually have to supply before you give up on this nonsense? Our government has been vigorous in supporting Ukraine and done as much as most to cause them problems. Such polling as is available from Ukraine itself supports this. The pressure put on BP is another good example. If our government was bought by the Russians they are getting less for their money than they are in Ukraine. Its just nonsense.
    The Ukranians rate British assistance highly, and their opinion is the one that matters.

    It's OK for Boris Johnson to be corrupt because the UK is supplying Ukraine with valuable military support is quite a take!

    We all know that he's corrupt and a charlatan. But, when it comes to the Ukraine, the government has done a good job.

    The government has done a good job on some fronts. On others it has done very poorly.

    Tolerance of corruption leads to more corruption. That's how it becomes endemic. And once it is endemic democracy effectively ceases to function.

    To an extent it is how low we set the expectation bar.

    Newly minted military strategic genius Johnson when confronted by an attractive Ukrainian lady journalist stuck to the NATO line. Good boy! We should expect nothing less of a NATO Leader. Our earlier fear might have been gibbering FS Johnson would have immediately agreed to a NFZ on misinterpreting her tears as bedroom eyes.

    Likewise, do we expect the Johnson Government to do the right thing over Russian donors to the Conservative Party? Our expectations are not high, so anything they do invoke seems like a big deal
    New 6 point plan from Muscly today. Telling the world they must "redouble their efforts". Also a haircut.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Mr. G, do you really think it's a fair analogy to compare the UK with Russia and Scotland with Ukraine?

    Cicero was saying that people would not want to be a free country, I asked him why they would be any different from other normal countries and in particular the current reason why people want to be independent, perfectly fitting I think. Ukranian's do not want to be Russian's again they want to run their own affairs as they see fit , not be ordered about by a bigger bullying neighbour. Only difference is that when Scotland becomes independent I do not expect the likes of HYFUD to be running rump UK and ordering tanks to invade.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    kinabalu said:

    Is the single group who has befouled their reputation the most the literal Kremlinologists? Even now we’re told that Putin has over dosed on plastic surgery, has Parkinson’s, is senile or has a wee touch of cancer, and is implementing a long planned strategy, has gone mad or is just very, very angry. His armed forces are either on the verge of mutiny & dissolution or relentlessly applying pressure to the defenceless, thin-shelled nut of Ukraine.

    The parameters currently are between the Wizard of Oz, ie a wizened old man hiding behind the curtain, or a dead eyed psychopath with the world’s fate in his hands. Of course both extremes and everything in between has control of thousands of nuclear warheads; in the circumstances a knowledgable appraisal of the real Putin would be most welcome.

    The man to ask is George W Bush. He sussed him on their very first meeting.

    "I found him very straightforward and trustworthy… I was able to get a sense of his soul."

    That 'soul' again.
    The Russian soul, or western understanding of it, has a lot to answer for. See also that enigmatic riddle.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:


    Enda Kelly seemed to think so, he was discussing this with the British government in late 2016, until he was replaced by Varadkar and his much more antagonistic approach.

    This old saw used to get wheeled out quite regularly during the dark days 2018-9. It turned out to be yet another David Davis lie.
    If I disliked anyone in politics it would be that Simon Coveney shitbag.
    You are spoiled for choice with the Tories.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    King Cole, it's a fascinating counterfactual to consider.

    Prior to the Norman Conquest, the leading external cultural influence on the British Isles was Viking.

    Also, from a French perspective, would a seriously weakened Normandy have allowed for more rapid expansion of the tiny realm the king of France held at this time, or weakened the monarchy even more? Would another Norse leader have sought the French throne?

    That first claim is extremely dubious. Christianity was probably a more important cultural import, and the papacy exerted considerable (indirect) power. Indeed, Pope Alexander II was very much a part of William's invasion plans, sanctifying the conquest before the Normans had even set sail.
    Christianity was well established in these islands by 1000 AD. The Pope's intervention was, IIRC, because Harold Godwinson broke his 'holy oath'.
    Our wool trade was largely with what we now call Holland and Belgium, AIUI.
    Yes, and Norse settlers were well established in these islands long before, too.
    Indeed; in fact I've been told that a minor hand deformation I have is indicative of Viking ancestry. However as 50% of that ancestry comes from the East Midlands that's hardly surprising.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    LOL, given the links were all laundering their loot for them and selling them golden passports. On your bike.
    Well as a bone headed nationalist I would expect you to like insular
    As a money grubbing Tory I am not surprised you want to keep the laundry open 24x7.
    PS: assume you are not boneheaded in thinking that Russians can waltz in here with wheelbarrows full of cash yet a Ukrian grandmother bombed out of her house and country is not allowed in to recover with her family.
    I am not a Tory ,far from it on a lot of issues
    Hopefully being tied to Russians so that you get loads of cash is one of them.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kinabalu said:



    Has Putin really miscalculated though? Has he not got the big call - that the US would not defend Ukraine - right?

    VVP's objective is not to end up with a prosperous, independent Ukraine in the EU and/or NATO. It certainly looks like he's going to get that. A second Belarus would have been ideal but he'll settle for a failed state full of starving wretches.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    kinabalu said:

    I quite liked this piece as a concise 'no big axe to grind' overview of the West v Putin since the back of the USSR*
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60597186
    * (we didn't know how lucky we were in many ways)

    Yes, that's an excellent article, well worth a read. Sober, measured, concise and, I reckon, pretty accurate. He should do a follow-up on how to resolve the mess we're now in.
    It neglects to mention the immediate post cold war view in the West that the globe would welcome the US as its only policeman and also that both Gorbachev and Putin asked to join NATO and were rebuffed.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kle4 said:

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This earlier story by @openDemocracy is worth re-reading in light of @thesundaytimes revelations on the Lebedev/Johnson link... https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-boris-russian-oligarch-and-page-3-model/

    It would be deserved karma that having escaped his just punishment for his lockdown excesses, his earlier excesses with the Russians should bring his downfall.

    Boris Johnson is lucky. He's having a good war.
    Don't confuse the photo opportunities and spin with the reality. It's too early to draw such a conclusion.
    Indeed. The UK overall, together with 5 eyes, has made many good calls over Ukraine in the past few months. However there was and is a major Russian subversion and propaganda operation targeting the UK. There are significant figures that have many questions to answer concerning their long term relationships with Russia, notably Aaron Banks, Dominic Cummings, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, George Osborne, Alex Salmond and many others. Once this war is over, there needs to be a full investigation. The Prime Minster´s choice of Alexander Lebedev as a member of the House of Lords was heavily criticised at the time and now looks -at best- very ill judged.

    Churchill had "quite" a good war, but in 1945 the voters had not forgotten the mistakes in the lead up to war, so I would not automatically equate respect for the performance of the UK security service and military with support or even respect for Johnson. The Mail`s bigging up of Johnson today is triumphalist rubbish and offensive to the Ukrainians taking shelter from the savage and brutal Russian attacks. This war still seems far from over (the intelligence assesment is many weeks and even months ahead) and Putin is still very much alive and dangerous. Many awful things are still happening and while the survival of the Ukrainian army and state is incredible (and indeed inspirational), that is not the same as a victory. 2 million refugees, cities in ruins, incalcuable economic damage, including the loss of the spring sowing, the coming months will be very hard for Ukraine.

    Neither is the post war world looking that good for Britain. Germany will take on a far more powerful military role and that inevitably will diminish the role of the UK. Leaving the EU reduces the economic capacity of the UK by a significant percentage, and even if we no longer squabble with Brussels, (which under the Tories is not a given), Britain will still find its ability to acheive key strategic goals sharply diminished. And all of that is before we talk about Covid and partygate. This isnt the Falklands.
    There is nothing wrong with having had links with Russia before this. Frankly the world needs as many links as it can in a nuclear age.
    That depends on the nature of the links.
    One thing to remember: during war, natives of an enemy combatant in a country generally get sh*t on hard. For instance Germans/Italians/Austrians living in Britain in 1939, or Japanese in America, both of whom suffered internment to varying degrees. It is generally accepted now that widescale internment was a mistake - and in fact, many internees went on to serve for us in the war.

    We are not at war, and not doing internment. But treating every rich Russian as though they're just Putin's stooges strikes me as being not just wrong, but a mistake. Some will be enemies of Putin, and some may give us useful conduits back into Russia.

    They may not all be bad guys.
    Is there perhaps somewhere in between paid for access to three successive prime ministers and internment?

    Just maybe we could aim there?
    Indeed. But my point stands.
    Not really, because no-one is calling for internment. People are calling for the establishment party to stop taking funds from ex Putin cronies, and "coincidentally" delaying implementing sanctions on them.
    That was not my point. It is the assumption that everyone in a group *has* to be guilty.
    You construct this windmill, and then tilt at it, once a day on average. To say that Carrie Johnson is odious is not sexism. To say that some men falsely identify as transwomen for sexual predation/sporting success reasons is not to be transphobic. And so on.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    That’s because 90% of the country doesn’t have to live under her regime.
    That would be more persuasive if it were not for the fact that Scots agree with the other islanders:

    Net favourability

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
    You have to take into account Scottish voters being brainwashed by virulently pro SNP broadcasters and press though.
    I thought it was those devils in the schools programming the youth?
    All organs of the state and society are of course in the service of the SNP, as they should be in any well run totalitarian nation.
    Indeed. The only thing that can save us is their utter and complete incompetence.

    So I remain quite sanguine.
    They’re utterly and completely incompetent.

    What’s the alternative?

    Ah, ok, fair enough.
    Its not a happy situation is it? Poor Scotland.
    Perhaps Unionists should do *a lot* more in providing an alternative prospectus? Of course being in the position of having policies vicariously implemented without the ghastly inconvenience of getting voters to support them makes you lazy.
    For once we are in agreement Divvie. No second referendum is not a platform for government. Scotland badly needs a real choice and they are not really being offered one by any of the Unionist parties. What we get is a critique from the sidelines (which is easy enough) but no thought through alternatives.

    How do we recover education from its current morass?

    What are our priorities in healthcare?

    What do we do (beyond what the Lord Advocate has bravely done) to reduce drug deaths?

    Above all, how does a Scottish economy thrive in a country where the talent, money, investment and skills are inexorably sucked into London?

    I am not seeing many answers from anyone. It's depressing.
    I have to give some credit to Douglas Ross - no longer DRoss - in standing up to the cesspit that is the so-called unionist party south of the wall. As you say, there is no alternative being offered to independence that isn't a broken status-quo.

    This isn;t so much a Scottish issue as it is a Union issue. We cut off NI from GB and we're at risk now of seeing Sinn Fein in office across the intra-Irish border and all that means. Scotland is restless and getting more so. Wales has found its own feet and is pushing its own identity.

    So we either reform the union or it will die.
    We didn't, it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border for a UK and EU trade deal. Now the UK government is correctly considering whether to invoke Article 16.
    We divided GB and NI. Not the EU. As for A16, so what. That is the start of a change in relations, not an end. We need to find a way to square the circle and refuse to do the obvious.

    The Ukraine war demonstrates that we need allies and alliances more than ever. Yet the cosplay Thatcher gets invited to the European Council and doesn't even have the good grace to mention the EU or that she was at the European Council when tweeting about it.
    No it was the EU who demanded the Irish Sea border rather than using a technological solution and Art 16 is therefore increasingly the likely response from the UK government.

    It is NATO which is the key alliance we need to contain Putin (not least as it also includes us, Norway, Iceland, the US, Canada and Turkey unlike the EU)
    What technological solution? It doesn't exist. Which is why your party was unwilling to wait for it to be implemented - they also know it doesn't exist.

    Again, you mention A16 as a solution. It is not.
    It is and I understand the government will likely invoke Article 16 later this year if talks with the EU do not remove the Irish Sea border anyway. Unionist parties in NI of course very much want the government to invoke Art 16
    You have decided tacitly to ignore anyone in NI who is not fully signed up to Johnsonian Loyalism.

    So on your terms, Republicans and those Unionists who don't much care for politics and just want to get on with their lives should be ignored.
    No, the UK government could have ignored Nationalists in NI and gone to No Deal post Brexit and imposed a hard border in Ireland.

    It didn't. However the EU and Dublin did not reciprocate as they decided to demand a hard border in the Irish Sea ignoring the views of most Unionists in NI
    Yeah but, there lies the problem. Johnson sold one side down the river. He realises that was a mistake and triggering A16 sells the other side down the river.

    If only someone had come up with an idea like Mrs May's backstop. Yes it was a dog's breakfast, but it was less chaotic than BigDog's incoherent incontinence.
This discussion has been closed.