I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
There was always support for recapturing the Falklands after Argentina invaded it.
For starters it was a British overseas territory unlike Ukraine and second Argentina did not have nuclear weapons unlike Putin
Seems that Putin didn't invest in one of the most underrated and necessary aspects of warfare: Logistics corps
There were some interesting things on that yesterday - someone posted a link to an analysis that pointed out that the efficient, anti-corruption Minister of Defence in Russia got turfed out in 2012. He had a special emphasis on logistics and stocks of weapons.
His successor is a pal of Putin and all the other thieves, right back to the beginning of Putinism.
And stealing/faking supplies for the military is one of the oldest forms of corruption.
A lot of the Russian equipment does seem to be from the 1980s
And im still amazed by this huge column of static military vehicles that the whole world knows about.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
“May” is doing a lot there. And this is why ministers should dodge the question. In principle it’s fine, but if you get sucked into certain types of action it would not be fine. And as Private Smith of the international brigade in someone else’s war for national survival, you don’t really get to decide what you are and are not asked to do.
I don't have a strong view whether it should be encouraged, discouraged or banned but I would like our Foreign Secretary, Foreign Office and laws to be in alignment.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
The insignia of the Liebstandarte Liz Truss is a silver Instagram logo on a black shield.
"Today, some French minister has said that they declared an economic war on Russia. Watch your tongue, gentlemen! And don’t forget that in human history, economic wars quite often turned into real ones"
They're really running out of inflammatory language to ramp up.
Can one of our Russian speakers elucidate on the implications of the word "war"? They seem remarkably touchy about it. Are there differing levels of the word in Russian which all translate to war in English? Or are there separate words for economic and military? Or are they just bonkers?
They are touchy about it because the underlying message is that it is just a walk in the park, an exercise. The Ukrainians are disappointing them by not cheering the tanks.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
There is no quicker way to turn a country into a killing field that to invite random people from outside -- who could be anything from well-intentioned to nutters to wannabe gangsters -- and give them guns and ask them to start shooting.
There was a story in the Yugoslav wars about a chap (ex Royal Engineers, IIRC) who went to help with mine clearance in Bosnia.
Some foreign Jihadis showed up and started expressing their disgust that an infidel was fighting for the Muslims and the lack of reglious fervour from the locals.
A couple of days later, the jihadis disappeared. When the RE guy asked what had happen, the locals explained that the jihadis had started talking about killing him (the RE guy). And the locals showed him where they'd buried the jihadis.....
*good news story amidst the most depressing news story of my entire life “Zelenskyy thanks Duke and Duchess of Cambridge for their support Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has thanked Prince William and Kate Middleton for their support at this "crucial time" in the Russian invasion. The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge had earlier shared a message of support with the Ukrainian people, who are fiercely opposing Putin's army. Mr Zelenskyy said: "Olena and I are grateful to the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge that, at this crucial time, when Ukraine is courageously opposing Russia's invasion, they stand by our country and support our brave citizens.”
I expect the Sussexes are seething their message was ignored and Zelensky only acknowledged the Cambridges' message
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
The Government doesn’t actually have to follow the polls you know, especially on matters of right and wrong. And as we were all explaining to you last night, if NATO’s eastern flank is attacked then we will literally be attacked too because of the battle groups.
It does in the sense it is difficult for an elected government to stay in power without public support.
As I also pointed out if the eastern flank of NATO is attacked then there is no guarantee the US and UK and French battle groups will not be drawn back to defend western Europe.
Of course even if we do then go to war if Putin invaded Poland that might happen anyway. We went to war with Hitler finally after he invaded Poland. however our troops ended up defending France and once France fell to the Nazis we ended up withdrawing British forces across the channel from Dunkirk back to Britain to defend the UK
Powerful speech from VDL to the EU Plt, including a clear commitment to accelerate Ukraine toward membership
Putin would piss and moan about it but it would be far harder to portray joining a political and social union as an existential threat to Russia compared to joining NATO. Of course our own useless idiots will have to reconcile their views on whether the EU is forcing its members into constructing a single military power with oppressive views on vacuum cleaners or it's a fissiparous bunch of conchies, but who cares what they think.
I rather think that, NATO having rediscovered a strategic concept 30 years after they started looking for a new one, Brussels will be a little less enthusiastic about a full EU army - for now at least. They will have a lot more on their plate which is within their normal areas.
Watching Germany's choice of systems for their £100bn rearmament will be revealing, perhaps. They seem to be going for both F-35 and the (good) Electronic Warfare version of Eurofighter.
Irrespective of whether there are any clandestine special forces operating inside Ukraine (and I really hope there aren't), I'm angered by the renewed bellicosity of one or two individuals on here.
Let's be absolutely clear - IF NATO and Russian troops get into direct confrontation, however slight, there is a very real chance of significant escalation which will end in most of us dying horrible deaths, most of western European civilisation being incinerated and hundreds of millions of people being killed.
Seriously? Just to "stand up to a bully"? You mean, like we stood up for Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 when we knew (and Moscow knew) there was nothing we could do if we didn't want to start down the road to Armageddon.
We won the Cold War because we could afford to go on fighting it and in the end the USSR and its allies couldn't. The economic weapon is always going to be our best card and we know the longer the unprecedented level of sanctions goes on, the greater the pressure on Putin to back down. We will have to keep up the economic pressure even if Ukraine is militarily defeated and we have to deal with the humanitarian consequences.
We can offer all the material aid and support to Ukraine we can but we cannot intervene militarily - Ukraine knows that, Russia knows that and we know that. It may well be Kyiv, Kharkiv and other cities are reduced to flaming ruins and it may well be thousands will die and that will be an appalling tragedy as it was in Bosnia but the Serbs didn't have nuclear weapons, did they?
One would like to hope even at this late hour Putin and Zelenskyy might find some form of compromise which will allow for a cease fire and a de-escalation. We should be facilitating and offering our services towards that goal as much as we to defending the Ukraine militarily.
*good news story amidst the most depressing news story of my entire life “Zelenskyy thanks Duke and Duchess of Cambridge for their support Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has thanked Prince William and Kate Middleton for their support at this "crucial time" in the Russian invasion. The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge had earlier shared a message of support with the Ukrainian people, who are fiercely opposing Putin's army. Mr Zelenskyy said: "Olena and I are grateful to the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge that, at this crucial time, when Ukraine is courageously opposing Russia's invasion, they stand by our country and support our brave citizens.”
Zelensky’s social media team are having a bloody good war.
I mentioned it the other day, but it’s worth repeating that a lot of the sort of content that might make westerners cringe, especially from politicians with whom we don’t usually agree, is going down really well in Ukraine. Boris speaking Russian and Ukranian, and waving off a plane full of supplies, was on the national news.
“ Zelensky’s social media team are having a bloody good war. ”
It’s amazing he has time and energy to do all this whilst fighting a war right on top of him in his own country, and he always looks fresh as paint in live media, and he is sharp witted and doesn’t put a foot wrong in interviews and statements.
Puts our lazy clapped out looking politicians to shame.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
The insignia of the Liebstandarte Liz Truss is a silver Instagram logo on a black shield.
Seems that Putin didn't invest in one of the most underrated and necessary aspects of warfare: Logistics corps
There were some interesting things on that yesterday - someone posted a link to an analysis that pointed out that the efficient, anti-corruption Minister of Defence in Russia got turfed out in 2012. He had a special emphasis on logistics and stocks of weapons.
His successor is a pal of Putin and all the other thieves, right back to the beginning of Putinism.
And stealing/faking supplies for the military is one of the oldest forms of corruption.
A lot of the Russian equipment does seem to be from the 1980s
And im still amazed by this huge column of static military vehicles that the whole world knows about.
It is militarily extraordinary. It is inviting a "Highway of Death" type event
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
The insignia of the Liebstandarte Liz Truss is a silver Instagram logo on a black shield.
On a f8cking bleak day, that post gave me a good laugh.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
“May” is doing a lot there. And this is why ministers should dodge the question. In principle it’s fine, but if you get sucked into certain types of action it would not be fine. And as Private Smith of the international brigade in someone else’s war for national survival, you don’t really get to decide what you are and are not asked to do.
I don't have a strong view whether it should be encouraged, discouraged or banned but I would like our Foreign Secretary, Foreign Office and laws to be in alignment.
I know you’re saying, but the truth (and why ministers should dodge it) is that the legal answer will always be “it depends”.
Powerful speech from VDL to the EU Plt, including a clear commitment to accelerate Ukraine toward membership
Putin would piss and moan about it but it would be far harder to portray joining a political and social union as an existential threat to Russia compared to joining NATO. Of course our own useless idiots will have to reconcile their views on whether the EU is forcing its members into constructing a single military power with oppressive views on vacuum cleaners or it's a fissiparous bunch of conchies, but who cares what they think.
I rather think that, NATO having rediscovered a strategic concept 30 years after they started looking for a new one, Brussels will be a little less enthusiastic about a full EU army - for now at least. They will have a lot more on their plate which is within their normal areas.
Watching Germany's choice of systems for their £100bn rearmament will be revealing, perhaps. They seem to be going for both F-35 and the (good) Electronic Warfare version of Eurofighter.
Let's wait and see how the next election for POTUS pans out shall we?
Irrespective of whether there are any clandestine special forces operating inside Ukraine (and I really hope there aren't), I'm angered by the renewed bellicosity of one or two individuals on here.
Let's be absolutely clear - IF NATO and Russian troops get into direct confrontation, however slight, there is a very real chance of significant escalation which will end in most of us dying horrible deaths, most of western European civilisation being incinerated and hundreds of millions of people being killed.
Seriously? Just to "stand up to a bully"? You mean, like we stood up for Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 when we knew (and Moscow knew) there was nothing we could do if we didn't want to start down the road to Armageddon.
We won the Cold War because we could afford to go on fighting it and in the end the USSR and its allies couldn't. The economic weapon is always going to be our best card and we know the longer the unprecedented level of sanctions goes on, the greater the pressure on Putin to back down. We will have to keep up the economic pressure even if Ukraine is militarily defeated and we have to deal with the humanitarian consequences.
We can offer all the material aid and support to Ukraine we can but we cannot intervene militarily - Ukraine knows that, Russia knows that and we know that. It may well be Kyiv, Kharkiv and other cities are reduced to flaming ruins and it may well be thousands will die and that will be an appalling tragedy as it was in Bosnia but the Serbs didn't have nuclear weapons, did they?
One would like to hope even at this late hour Putin and Zelenskyy might find some form of compromise which will allow for a cease fire and a de-escalation. We should be facilitating and offering our services towards that goal as much as we to defending the Ukraine militarily.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
“May” is doing a lot there. And this is why ministers should dodge the question. In principle it’s fine, but if you get sucked into certain types of action it would not be fine. And as Private Smith of the international brigade in someone else’s war for national survival, you don’t really get to decide what you are and are not asked to do.
I don't have a strong view whether it should be encouraged, discouraged or banned but I would like our Foreign Secretary, Foreign Office and laws to be in alignment.
They are.
Nothing in those two statements is remotely contradictory except in your head.
Powerful speech from VDL to the EU Plt, including a clear commitment to accelerate Ukraine toward membership
Putin would piss and moan about it but it would be far harder to portray joining a political and social union as an existential threat to Russia compared to joining NATO. Of course our own useless idiots will have to reconcile their views on whether the EU is forcing its members into constructing a single military power with oppressive views on vacuum cleaners or it's a fissiparous bunch of conchies, but who cares what they think.
Yet the reality is that the greater threat is Russia being shown up by a more prosperous and democratic neighbour and ordinary Russians seeing their friends and relatives in Ukraine enjoying the benefits that they are denied. The EU has played a massive role in transforming Poland and the other eastern bloc countries and Russia would be terrified of seeing the same on its doorstep.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
The insignia of the Liebstandarte Liz Truss is a silver Instagram logo on a black shield.
On a f8cking bleak day, that post gave me a good laugh.
Interesting you enjoy that analogy. Since this is the head of Wagner Group - Putin's little helpers....
Seems that Putin didn't invest in one of the most underrated and necessary aspects of warfare: Logistics corps
There were some interesting things on that yesterday - someone posted a link to an analysis that pointed out that the efficient, anti-corruption Minister of Defence in Russia got turfed out in 2012. He had a special emphasis on logistics and stocks of weapons.
His successor is a pal of Putin and all the other thieves, right back to the beginning of Putinism.
And stealing/faking supplies for the military is one of the oldest forms of corruption.
A lot of the Russian equipment does seem to be from the 1980s
And im still amazed by this huge column of static military vehicles that the whole world knows about.
It is militarily extraordinary. It is inviting a "Highway of Death" type event
I seriously hope it isn't there in the hope NATO WILL attack it. I wouldn't entirely rule that possibility out. Which is absolutely why we shouldn't.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
There is no quicker way to turn a country into a killing field that to invite random people from outside -- who could be anything from well-intentioned to nutters to wannabe gangsters -- and give them guns and ask them to start shooting.
The Ukrainians will be delighted as soon as they get there. They know they will be building a volunteer force of lots of people with great skills and commitment. All these ammo and supply promises amounts to virtue signalling if there’s dwindling numbers of those who can put it to use, so pointless sending more weapon then if it’s just to make us feel better, like when we drop some food in a charity box.
It’s certainly not an unequivocal no from British Government to getting over there, in fact it’s far more than nod and wink yes.
Powerful speech from VDL to the EU Plt, including a clear commitment to accelerate Ukraine toward membership
Putin would piss and moan about it but it would be far harder to portray joining a political and social union as an existential threat to Russia compared to joining NATO. Of course our own useless idiots will have to reconcile their views on whether the EU is forcing its members into constructing a single military power with oppressive views on vacuum cleaners or it's a fissiparous bunch of conchies, but who cares what they think.
I rather think that, NATO having rediscovered a strategic concept 30 years after they started looking for a new one, Brussels will be a little less enthusiastic about a full EU army - for now at least. They will have a lot more on their plate which is within their normal areas.
Watching Germany's choice of systems for their £100bn rearmament will be revealing, perhaps. They seem to be going for both F-35 and the (good) Electronic Warfare version of Eurofighter.
Let's wait and see how the next election for POTUS pans out shall we?
Irrespective of whether there are any clandestine special forces operating inside Ukraine (and I really hope there aren't), I'm angered by the renewed bellicosity of one or two individuals on here.
Let's be absolutely clear - IF NATO and Russian troops get into direct confrontation, however slight, there is a very real chance of significant escalation which will end in most of us dying horrible deaths, most of western European civilisation being incinerated and hundreds of millions of people being killed.
Seriously? Just to "stand up to a bully"? You mean, like we stood up for Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 when we knew (and Moscow knew) there was nothing we could do if we didn't want to start down the road to Armageddon.
We won the Cold War because we could afford to go on fighting it and in the end the USSR and its allies couldn't. The economic weapon is always going to be our best card and we know the longer the unprecedented level of sanctions goes on, the greater the pressure on Putin to back down. We will have to keep up the economic pressure even if Ukraine is militarily defeated and we have to deal with the humanitarian consequences.
We can offer all the material aid and support to Ukraine we can but we cannot intervene militarily - Ukraine knows that, Russia knows that and we know that. It may well be Kyiv, Kharkiv and other cities are reduced to flaming ruins and it may well be thousands will die and that will be an appalling tragedy as it was in Bosnia but the Serbs didn't have nuclear weapons, did they?
One would like to hope even at this late hour Putin and Zelenskyy might find some form of compromise which will allow for a cease fire and a de-escalation. We should be facilitating and offering our services towards that goal as much as we to defending the Ukraine militarily.
You’re denying PB’ers their right to sleep more soundly knowing they’ve done their bit by spending the day pasting dozens of “we must take on Putin” (in some unspecified additional way) messages up here?
Interesting reversal: policymakers in EU acting with decision and strategy, commentators for the most part running around scared (“Putin is crazy, let’s give him what he wants”)
I’m also getting increasingly worried about the head of steam that seems to have built, especially in Europe (less so the US). People need to cool it.
Speak softly and carry a big stick. Let Russia run out of cash, fuel and tanks, and the will to fight. It was working quite well. Stay on the moral high ground and try to get China on side.
The ramping up of WW3 rhetoric might cause a rallying to the flag in Russia. Has happened several times in Iran in response to Western pressure.
My brother is the same.
But I think it's too late. The escalation is occurring. That's in large measure because Russian forces are not succeeding on the ground and the more they escalate the style of campaign the more our horror turns to indignation and then to action. Russian forces have gone from waltzing in as apparent liberators now to carpet bombing.
Surely we have little choice? We cannot sit back and let this deranged lunatic annihilate a country just because he shouts at us not to get involved. Perhaps I'm wrong and we just sit on our hands and let him do it. Let him destroy an entire country. But he won't stop there.
Europe has irrevocably altered.
I don't think we have a choice but to face him down. He's not going to stop here. And it would embolden others (like China) if we didn't.
The alternative is all of Eastern Europe falls and we're subject to permanent geopolitical blackmail across Europe and the World by authoritarian states.
I said this a few days ago and was called a moron. Funny how the zeitgeist has shifted.
Not for me or the majority of public opinion, if the latest polls are to believed, it hasn't.
To be fair you are very very dove like and cautious! Maybe that's not a bad thing but you've also been saying that you feel it in your bones that things are going to get better which they clearly aren't. (Eeek I now have the bloody D:Ream song playing in my head.)
The fact is that the situation has evolved. Putin sickeningly is doing the unthinkable. He has gone full tonto. We have to stop him.
I wouldn't characterise myself as an extremely dove-like person, overall. I favour a balance of offensive and defensive in most areas of life. The quite simply inescapable fact is that the offensive option poses vast, unacceptable risks. That's hardly to be a fluffy, naive dove.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
Examined carefully the two statements contain no contradiction.
Firstly, if you travel to Ukraine to assist the Russians it is quite possible you could be committing an offence.
Secondly "support that struggle" does not amount to clear words saying "fight and kill others in that struggle".
The underlying problem is that no simple and clear UK laws can always sensibly apply to random and fluctuating situations overseas.
What no-one should do, unless they have direct authorisation from the UK government, is engage in any act overseas which would be an offence here - like risking murdering small children in their beds with missiles - unless they have first taken expert legal advice.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
The insignia of the Liebstandarte Liz Truss is a silver Instagram logo on a black shield.
On a f8cking bleak day, that post gave me a good laugh.
Interesting you enjoy that analogy. Since this is the head of Wagner Group - Putin's little helpers....
Stop being silly. That's an old picture of Mike Smithson.
Powerful speech from VDL to the EU Plt, including a clear commitment to accelerate Ukraine toward membership
It was and it was really pleasing to hear her say that all the restrictions against Putin have been agreed jointly with the UK and US
This is my hope for the future where we all work together
If there is one good thing that might come out of all this, it’s an end to the petty and divisive Western politics of the past decade.
Quite a bit of which has, of course, been inspired by the Russians and their internet troll farms.
Let’s all unite against the common enemy, now that it’s plain to see who that enemy is.
I think last week was a wake up call. Many of the battles that we have been fighting are just divisive, depressing and self destructive. For instance, countries have different views on abortion and race, even within an entity like the EU. Poland have adopted a near total ban on abortion. Victor Orban espouses a view of the Hungarian nation which is defined by racial characteristics. Both positions are reflected in the political views of a democratic majority in each country, but have been the cause of political conflict with the EU that hampers co-operation.
But as of last week, all this is put to one side, and everyone is working together to deal with a far greater, existential threat. If we are going to succeed, and if Russia is ever to be bought in to the western sphere, there has to be more tolerance of cultural differences; even if that makes us feel uncomfortable, and we have to rethink how far we project some of our values around the world.
The west is desperate to find some sort of purpose as it doesn't know what it is doing or where it is going. As much as I respect the people involved and try to understand their perspective, it was always clear to me that this was never to be found in Black Lives Matter protests, or pulling down statues of slavers. Identity politics was a symptom of our existential malaise rather than any sort of solution to it. Perhaps a real conflict with Russia will bring people together and give the west some sort of renewed purpose?
Powerful speech from VDL to the EU Plt, including a clear commitment to accelerate Ukraine toward membership
Putin would piss and moan about it but it would be far harder to portray joining a political and social union as an existential threat to Russia compared to joining NATO. Of course our own useless idiots will have to reconcile their views on whether the EU is forcing its members into constructing a single military power with oppressive views on vacuum cleaners or it's a fissiparous bunch of conchies, but who cares what they think.
Yet the reality is that the greater threat is Russia being shown up by a more prosperous and democratic neighbour and ordinary Russians seeing their friends and relatives in Ukraine enjoying the benefits that they are denied. The EU has played a massive role in transforming Poland and the other eastern bloc countries and Russia would be terrified of seeing the same on its doorstep.
No doubt, but I still think it would be more difficult to portray a nice car, free movement and being able to decide which is the least arseholey politician for which to vote as more threatening that an airfield full of F-18s. Russian people aren't any stupider than the rest of us.
Irrespective of whether there are any clandestine special forces operating inside Ukraine (and I really hope there aren't), I'm angered by the renewed bellicosity of one or two individuals on here.
Let's be absolutely clear - IF NATO and Russian troops get into direct confrontation, however slight, there is a very real chance of significant escalation which will end in most of us dying horrible deaths, most of western European civilisation being incinerated and hundreds of millions of people being killed.
Seriously? Just to "stand up to a bully"? You mean, like we stood up for Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 when we knew (and Moscow knew) there was nothing we could do if we didn't want to start down the road to Armageddon.
We won the Cold War because we could afford to go on fighting it and in the end the USSR and its allies couldn't. The economic weapon is always going to be our best card and we know the longer the unprecedented level of sanctions goes on, the greater the pressure on Putin to back down. We will have to keep up the economic pressure even if Ukraine is militarily defeated and we have to deal with the humanitarian consequences.
We can offer all the material aid and support to Ukraine we can but we cannot intervene militarily - Ukraine knows that, Russia knows that and we know that. It may well be Kyiv, Kharkiv and other cities are reduced to flaming ruins and it may well be thousands will die and that will be an appalling tragedy as it was in Bosnia but the Serbs didn't have nuclear weapons, did they?
One would like to hope even at this late hour Putin and Zelenskyy might find some form of compromise which will allow for a cease fire and a de-escalation. We should be facilitating and offering our services towards that goal as much as we to defending the Ukraine militarily.
You’re denying PB’ers their right to sleep more soundly knowing they’ve done their bit by spending the day pasting dozens of “we must take on Putin” (in some unspecified additional way) messages up here?
Ive done my bit for the north east war economy by consuming locally manufactured sausage rolls. You’re welcome.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
More joined up than you imply if you claim the UK Government will try to could possibly ever get away with prosecuting anyone returning from fighting for Zelenskyy.
Are you saying human resource isn’t vital for Zelenskyy right now? It’s the main thing they are crying out for.
Russia's defense ministry, seemingly abandoning the pretense it's not targeting civilian areas, says it's going to strike "psyops" and communications targets in Kyiv and warns people living near them to leave their homes.
On that static convoy, I reckon they are conducting a binding referendum on whether to take the money on offer to go home....
I’m not the most knowledgable at doing war, but it seems to me dum to have all your hopes on winning war in one big 40 mile traffic jam. If we can help Zelenskyy blow that up it’s over, Putin will be desperate for talks.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
The insignia of the Liebstandarte Liz Truss is a silver Instagram logo on a black shield.
On a f8cking bleak day, that post gave me a good laugh.
Interesting you enjoy that analogy. Since this is the head of Wagner Group - Putin's little helpers....
Stop being silly. That's an old picture of Mike Smithson.
That's the bravest comment I've ever heard - braver than "Fuck You Russian Warship".
Still I find it interesting that some posters get a giggle about comparing people to Nazis.
When what they are opposed to is people with actual Nazi fucking tattoos.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
The Government doesn’t actually have to follow the polls you know, especially on matters of right and wrong. And as we were all explaining to you last night, if NATO’s eastern flank is attacked then we will literally be attacked too because of the battle groups.
It does in the sense it is difficult for an elected government to stay in power without public support.
As I also pointed out if the eastern flank of NATO is attacked then there is no guarantee the US and UK and French battle groups will not be drawn back to defend western Europe.
Of course even if we do then go to war if Putin invaded Poland that might happen anyway. We went to war with Hitler finally after he invaded Poland. however our troops ended up defending France and once France fell to the Nazis we ended up withdrawing British forces across the channel from Dunkirk back to Britain to defend the UK
So in your view the purpose of Government is to stay in power? Thatcher’s body is spinning at 4000rpm at that statement.
And your grasp of WWII history is limited. Or perhaps your point of view is fixed.
Powerful speech from VDL to the EU Plt, including a clear commitment to accelerate Ukraine toward membership
Putin would piss and moan about it but it would be far harder to portray joining a political and social union as an existential threat to Russia compared to joining NATO. Of course our own useless idiots will have to reconcile their views on whether the EU is forcing its members into constructing a single military power with oppressive views on vacuum cleaners or it's a fissiparous bunch of conchies, but who cares what they think.
I rather think that, NATO having rediscovered a strategic concept 30 years after they started looking for a new one, Brussels will be a little less enthusiastic about a full EU army - for now at least. They will have a lot more on their plate which is within their normal areas.
Watching Germany's choice of systems for their £100bn rearmament will be revealing, perhaps. They seem to be going for both F-35 and the (good) Electronic Warfare version of Eurofighter.
Let's wait and see how the next election for POTUS pans out shall we?
Even then the UK and Turkey need to be added to the EU for a European army to be clearly bigger than Russia's absent the USA's (even if Canada stayed in NATO if Trump was elected POTUS again in 2024 and pulled the US out of NATO)
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
On that static convoy, I reckon they are conducting a binding referendum on whether to take the money on offer to go home....
I’m not the most knowledgable at doing war, but it seems to me dum to have all your hopes on winning war in one big 40 mile traffic jam. If we can help Zelenskyy blow that up it’s over, Putin will be desperate for talks.
Bravo for the EU. It really does feel like the western alliance is back. I’m glad we left, but I’m stating to see them as a key ally and partner again. All our minor quibbles are insignificant vs. Putin’s threats.
This morning in the UN Human Rights Council more than 140 diplomats refused to listen to Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov’s futile attempt to justify unacceptable military aggression. Watch them leave the Council Chamber.
They have accepted the application form, and said that they effectively support the process starting. Which will still take years, and the Euro Parl are not the ones who get to make the final decision on their own.
It's putting down a marker, just as Mr Z was when he put the application in.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
The Government doesn’t actually have to follow the polls you know, especially on matters of right and wrong. And as we were all explaining to you last night, if NATO’s eastern flank is attacked then we will literally be attacked too because of the battle groups.
It does in the sense it is difficult for an elected government to stay in power without public support.
As I also pointed out if the eastern flank of NATO is attacked then there is no guarantee the US and UK and French battle groups will not be drawn back to defend western Europe.
Of course even if we do then go to war if Putin invaded Poland that might happen anyway. We went to war with Hitler finally after he invaded Poland. however our troops ended up defending France and once France fell to the Nazis we ended up withdrawing British forces across the channel from Dunkirk back to Britain to defend the UK
So in your view the purpose of Government is to stay in power? Thatcher’s body is spinning at 4000rpm at that statement.
And your grasp of WWII history is limited. Or perhaps your point of view is fixed.
Thatcher never went to war with Russia or China, she went to war with Argentina, a weaker military power than the UK without nuclear weapons.
In autumn 1939 we may have gone to war after the Nazis invaded Poland, however by late spring 1940 British forces were at Dunkirk being evacuated back to Britain to defend the UK after not only Poland but France too had fallen to the Nazis
Bravo for the EU. It really does feel like the western alliance is back. I’m glad we left, but I’m stating to see them as a key ally and partner again.
Whereas they still see BoZo as an unreliable clown
Powerful speech from VDL to the EU Plt, including a clear commitment to accelerate Ukraine toward membership
Putin would piss and moan about it but it would be far harder to portray joining a political and social union as an existential threat to Russia compared to joining NATO. Of course our own useless idiots will have to reconcile their views on whether the EU is forcing its members into constructing a single military power with oppressive views on vacuum cleaners or it's a fissiparous bunch of conchies, but who cares what they think.
I rather think that, NATO having rediscovered a strategic concept 30 years after they started looking for a new one, Brussels will be a little less enthusiastic about a full EU army - for now at least. They will have a lot more on their plate which is within their normal areas.
Watching Germany's choice of systems for their £100bn rearmament will be revealing, perhaps. They seem to be going for both F-35 and the (good) Electronic Warfare version of Eurofighter.
Let's wait and see how the next election for POTUS pans out shall we?
Indeed.
However, F-35 will be the de facto standard for much of Europe, and Germany has a Treaty commitment to a capability carry B-61 nuclear bombs on an aircraft.
That aircraft is currently Tornado, which are now nearly half a century old and Germany has been pfaffing about the replacement for a decade. F35 is I think being adapted to carry it, and they may not be able to adapt Eurofighter due to politics with the French not wanting the USA to see European fighter tech.
I am sure I was reading on here from all the usual suspects that the EU was weak had no hope of being any influence on the events in Ukraine?
This will make Putin very angry indeed. Whether that is a good thing is a matter for conjecture, but the idea that the EU is lame is ludicrous.
I think making Putin very angry right now is not clever, and this is a stupid decision of EU I don’t support. Ukraine in EU is just as dangerous to Putin as Ukraine in NATO.
To go to your post “ all the usual suspects that the EU was weak” so they are doing it in a “I’m tougher, tougher than you” one up man ship? That is what you are saying.
I think it pours something very bad over this burning crisis, when wise heads would have done the opposite. I think this makes EU decision making look stupid. I think this is wrong and dangerous.
I think we are beginning to see the worst of our nightmares - the West getting too invested and unable to sit back and watch Ukraine lose, so this slips into a different type of crisis.
They have accepted the application form, and said that they effectively support the process starting. Which will still take years, and the Euro Parl are not the ones who get to make the final decision on their own.
It's putting down a marker, just as Mr Z was when he put the application in.
Your post has made me panic about nuclear war much less, thank you. 🙏🏻
Irrespective of whether there are any clandestine special forces operating inside Ukraine (and I really hope there aren't), I'm angered by the renewed bellicosity of one or two individuals on here.
Let's be absolutely clear - IF NATO and Russian troops get into direct confrontation, however slight, there is a very real chance of significant escalation which will end in most of us dying horrible deaths, most of western European civilisation being incinerated and hundreds of millions of people being killed.
Seriously? Just to "stand up to a bully"? You mean, like we stood up for Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 when we knew (and Moscow knew) there was nothing we could do if we didn't want to start down the road to Armageddon.
We won the Cold War because we could afford to go on fighting it and in the end the USSR and its allies couldn't. The economic weapon is always going to be our best card and we know the longer the unprecedented level of sanctions goes on, the greater the pressure on Putin to back down. We will have to keep up the economic pressure even if Ukraine is militarily defeated and we have to deal with the humanitarian consequences.
We can offer all the material aid and support to Ukraine we can but we cannot intervene militarily - Ukraine knows that, Russia knows that and we know that. It may well be Kyiv, Kharkiv and other cities are reduced to flaming ruins and it may well be thousands will die and that will be an appalling tragedy as it was in Bosnia but the Serbs didn't have nuclear weapons, did they?
One would like to hope even at this late hour Putin and Zelenskyy might find some form of compromise which will allow for a cease fire and a de-escalation. We should be facilitating and offering our services towards that goal as much as we to defending the Ukraine militarily.
Well said.
It is well said and I share the distaste for bellicose punditry and the hope for de-escalation and a negotiated settlement. The only bit I disagree with is that we cannot under any circumstances get involved and all sides know this. I don't think that's quite true. Neither the threat of nuclear war nor that Ukraine isn't in NATO preclude us getting involved. Heavily steers against, yes, but not precludes.
On that static convoy, I reckon they are conducting a binding referendum on whether to take the money on offer to go home....
I’m not the most knowledgable at doing war, but it seems to me dum to have all your hopes on winning war in one big 40 mile traffic jam. If we can help Zelenskyy blow that up it’s over, Putin will be desperate for talks.
To say that we cannot, rather than that we choose not, to intervene militarily in Ukraine, is to accept the Russian position that there is something different about Ukraine that puts it into a Russian sphere of influence.
We accepted that of Eastern Europe after WWII, because the Red Army was strong enough to make it a reality, even before the USSR had nuclear weapons.
The whole point of the conflict is that Ukraine does not accept being part of the Russian sphere of influence. Why should we stand aside militarily and implicitly accept that?
I don't believe Russia would use nukes to defend its paltry territorial gains within Ukraine.
I am sure I was reading on here from all the usual suspects that the EU was weak had no hope of being any influence on the events in Ukraine?
This will make Putin very angry indeed. Whether that is a good thing is a matter for conjecture, but the idea that the EU is lame is ludicrous.
I think making Putin very angry right now is not clever, and this is a stupid decision of EU I don’t support. Ukraine in EU is just as dangerous to Putin as Ukraine in NATO.
To go to your post “ all the usual suspects that the EU was weak” so they are doing it in a “I’m tougher, tougher than you” one up man ship? That is what you are saying.
I think it pours something very bad over this burning crisis, when wise heads would have done the opposite. I think this makes EU decision making look stupid. I think this is wrong and dangerous.
I think we are beginning to see the worst of our nightmares - the West getting too invested and unable to sit back and watch Ukraine lose, so this slips into a different type of crisis.
It would take years for membership , and hasn’t been given the green light by the council . The EU parliament accepting this is really a symbolic vote . This really is a way of keeping morale up for those in Ukraine .
And anyway Russia seems to be manufacturing loads of ever more ridiculous reasons for its invasion .
*good news story amidst the most depressing news story of my entire life “Zelenskyy thanks Duke and Duchess of Cambridge for their support Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has thanked Prince William and Kate Middleton for their support at this "crucial time" in the Russian invasion. The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge had earlier shared a message of support with the Ukrainian people, who are fiercely opposing Putin's army. Mr Zelenskyy said: "Olena and I are grateful to the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge that, at this crucial time, when Ukraine is courageously opposing Russia's invasion, they stand by our country and support our brave citizens.”
I expect the Sussexes are seething their message was ignored and Zelensky only acknowledged the Cambridges' message
R4 play the Ukrainian questioner and Johnson’s reply - which I think he handled well.
the buffoon has actually had a decent crisis so far. He will fuck up, no doubt
A guy called Philippe San(d?)s thought he did less well than Carlotta. Johnson after a silence, didn't unilaterally promise the lady questioner a "no fly zone", which I was half expecting. So in fairness he did OK.
The Putin arse lickers have screwed up . There was very little chance of Le Pen winning and even less for Zemmour before this, there is now zip chance.
Le Pen can try and pretend she wasn’t a Putin stooge but Macron will be very happy to remind the public .
To say that we cannot, rather than that we choose not, to intervene militarily in Ukraine, is to accept the Russian position that there is something different about Ukraine that puts it into a Russian sphere of influence.
We accepted that of Eastern Europe after WWII, because the Red Army was strong enough to make it a reality, even before the USSR had nuclear weapons.
The whole point of the conflict is that Ukraine does not accept being part of the Russian sphere of influence. Why should we stand aside militarily and implicitly accept that?
I don't believe Russia would use nukes to defend its paltry territorial gains within Ukraine.
Yes, it's "choose" not to intervene. Whether or not to defend Ukraine isn't purely about the risk of nuclear war. If it were, the correct decision for any country under attack from Russia would always be to not defend it, which is absurd. It's about the overall risk v reward calculation of getting involved and the nuclear risks are a (massive) input to that. As is NATO membership. Massive inputs but not definitive. Eg it seems to me perfectly possible that we would defend a country which is not in NATO and not defend a country which is.
On that static convoy, I reckon they are conducting a binding referendum on whether to take the money on offer to go home....
I’m not the most knowledgable at doing war, but it seems to me dum to have all your hopes on winning war in one big 40 mile traffic jam. If we can help Zelenskyy blow that up it’s over, Putin will be desperate for talks.
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
The Government doesn’t actually have to follow the polls you know, especially on matters of right and wrong. And as we were all explaining to you last night, if NATO’s eastern flank is attacked then we will literally be attacked too because of the battle groups.
It does in the sense it is difficult for an elected government to stay in power without public support.
As I also pointed out if the eastern flank of NATO is attacked then there is no guarantee the US and UK and French battle groups will not be drawn back to defend western Europe.
Of course even if we do then go to war if Putin invaded Poland that might happen anyway. We went to war with Hitler finally after he invaded Poland. however our troops ended up defending France and once France fell to the Nazis we ended up withdrawing British forces across the channel from Dunkirk back to Britain to defend the UK
So in your view the purpose of Government is to stay in power? Thatcher’s body is spinning at 4000rpm at that statement.
And your grasp of WWII history is limited. Or perhaps your point of view is fixed.
Thatcher never went to war with Russia or China, she went to war with Argentina, a weaker military power than the UK without nuclear weapons.
In autumn 1939 we may have gone to war after the Nazis invaded Poland, however by late spring 1940 British forces were at Dunkirk being evacuated back to Britain to defend the UK after not only Poland but France too had fallen to the Nazis
I'm exceedingly glad we don't have Donald Trump at the helm but I have zero confidence in Joe Biden I'm afraid.
I don't think he's showing a sure or statesmanlike touch. And I don't believe that he would ever use a nuclear weapon which, whilst none of us would ever want, totally defeats the purpose of deterrent.
I remember the Cold War. We stood up to these bullies then, we have to do so again. It's time to get tough. Just as we maintained a corridor into Berlin, we need to do the same for Ukraine.
Standing back and doing nothing militarily is a dereliction of our duty to fellow human beings.
There is no appetite in the majority of the population of any western nation to send troops
Yet.
But there will be ...
There won't.
Wait and see.
Been here before several times. Same happened with the Falklands.
As this escalates and our media gets ramped, so will the clamour for greater involvement.
And that's good because we cannot let Putin get away with this. We need to defend Ukraine. Now.
More government support for Liz Truss “unofficial” British Expeditionary Force of fighters in Ukraine - though you should only consider it if you feel trained enough.
The Foreign Office website advises people against travel to the area and says: "If you travel to eastern Ukraine to fight, or to assist others engaged in the conflict, your activities may amount to offences against UK terrorism or other legislation and you could be prosecuted on your return to the UK."
Whereas the Foreign Secretary says "The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe. Absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that.”
Joined up thinking!
The insignia of the Liebstandarte Liz Truss is a silver Instagram logo on a black shield.
On a f8cking bleak day, that post gave me a good laugh.
Interesting you enjoy that analogy. Since this is the head of Wagner Group - Putin's little helpers....
I thought we'd agreed he's a definite swipe left ?
I am sure I was reading on here from all the usual suspects that the EU was weak had no hope of being any influence on the events in Ukraine?
This will make Putin very angry indeed. Whether that is a good thing is a matter for conjecture, but the idea that the EU is lame is ludicrous.
I think making Putin very angry right now is not clever, and this is a stupid decision of EU I don’t support. Ukraine in EU is just as dangerous to Putin as Ukraine in NATO.
To go to your post “ all the usual suspects that the EU was weak” so they are doing it in a “I’m tougher, tougher than you” one up man ship? That is what you are saying.
I think it pours something very bad over this burning crisis, when wise heads would have done the opposite. I think this makes EU decision making look stupid. I think this is wrong and dangerous.
I think we are beginning to see the worst of our nightmares - the West getting too invested and unable to sit back and watch Ukraine lose, so this slips into a different type of crisis.
I don't think any of that is right - and to act as you suggest would be to accept that Ukraine is no longer an independent country.
While direct military intervention is quite rightly off the table, this is a political, not military move which helps cement the status of the Ukraine government. Whether Putin likes it or not is quite irrelevant. it's not about being 'tough', but about insisting on a country's rights.
Comments
For starters it was a British overseas territory unlike Ukraine and second Argentina did not have nuclear weapons unlike Putin
And im still amazed by this huge column of static military vehicles that the whole world knows about.
Some foreign Jihadis showed up and started expressing their disgust that an infidel was fighting for the Muslims and the lack of reglious fervour from the locals.
A couple of days later, the jihadis disappeared. When the RE guy asked what had happen, the locals explained that the jihadis had started talking about killing him (the RE guy). And the locals showed him where they'd buried the jihadis.....
As I also pointed out if the eastern flank of NATO is attacked then there is no guarantee the US and UK and French battle groups will not be drawn back to defend western Europe.
Of course even if we do then go to war if Putin invaded Poland that might happen anyway. We went to war with Hitler finally after he invaded Poland. however our troops ended up defending France and once France fell to the Nazis we ended up withdrawing British forces across the channel from Dunkirk back to Britain to defend the UK
I'll see what I can do....
Watching Germany's choice of systems for their £100bn rearmament will be revealing, perhaps. They seem to be going for both F-35 and the (good) Electronic Warfare version of Eurofighter.
Irrespective of whether there are any clandestine special forces operating inside Ukraine (and I really hope there aren't), I'm angered by the renewed bellicosity of one or two individuals on here.
Let's be absolutely clear - IF NATO and Russian troops get into direct confrontation, however slight, there is a very real chance of significant escalation which will end in most of us dying horrible deaths, most of western European civilisation being incinerated and hundreds of millions of people being killed.
Seriously? Just to "stand up to a bully"? You mean, like we stood up for Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 when we knew (and Moscow knew) there was nothing we could do if we didn't want to start down the road to Armageddon.
We won the Cold War because we could afford to go on fighting it and in the end the USSR and its allies couldn't. The economic weapon is always going to be our best card and we know the longer the unprecedented level of sanctions goes on, the greater the pressure on Putin to back down. We will have to keep up the economic pressure even if Ukraine is militarily defeated and we have to deal with the humanitarian consequences.
We can offer all the material aid and support to Ukraine we can but we cannot intervene militarily - Ukraine knows that, Russia knows that and we know that. It may well be Kyiv, Kharkiv and other cities are reduced to flaming ruins and it may well be thousands will die and that will be an appalling tragedy as it was in Bosnia but the Serbs didn't have nuclear weapons, did they?
One would like to hope even at this late hour Putin and Zelenskyy might find some form of compromise which will allow for a cease fire and a de-escalation. We should be facilitating and offering our services towards that goal as much as we to defending the Ukraine militarily.
It’s amazing he has time and energy to do all this whilst fighting a war right on top of him in his own country, and he always looks fresh as paint in live media, and he is sharp witted and doesn’t put a foot wrong in interviews and statements.
Puts our lazy clapped out looking politicians to shame.
The European Parliament has accepted Ukraine's application to join the European Union.
A special admission procedure has begun.
It is a very important day in European history.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1498646519775469570?s=21
Nothing in those two statements is remotely contradictory except in your head.
"May" is an important word.
I wouldn't entirely rule that possibility out.
Which is absolutely why we shouldn't.
This will make Putin very angry indeed. Whether that is a good thing is a matter for conjecture, but the idea that the EU is lame is ludicrous.
If he went down this path then this would put NATO in a much more difficult position .
https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1498647767400472580
It’s certainly not an unequivocal no from British Government to getting over there, in fact it’s far more than nod and wink yes.
https://twitter.com/macaesbruno/status/1498648570119000066?s=21
Firstly, if you travel to Ukraine to assist the Russians it is quite possible you could be committing an offence.
Secondly "support that struggle" does not amount to clear words saying "fight and kill others in that struggle".
The underlying problem is that no simple and clear UK laws can always sensibly apply to random and fluctuating situations overseas.
What no-one should do, unless they have direct authorisation from the UK government, is engage in any act overseas which would be an offence here - like risking murdering small children in their beds with missiles - unless they have first taken expert legal advice.
Former heads of Interpol include
But as of last week, all this is put to one side, and everyone is working together to deal with a far greater, existential threat. If we are going to succeed, and if Russia is ever to be bought in to the western sphere, there has to be more tolerance of cultural differences; even if that makes us feel uncomfortable, and we have to rethink how far we project some of our values around the world.
The west is desperate to find some sort of purpose as it doesn't know what it is doing or where it is going. As much as I respect the people involved and try to understand their perspective, it was always clear to me that this was never to be found in Black Lives Matter protests, or pulling down statues of slavers. Identity politics was a symptom of our existential malaise rather than any sort of solution to it. Perhaps a real conflict with Russia will bring people together and give the west some sort of renewed purpose?
Are you saying human resource isn’t vital for Zelenskyy right now? It’s the main thing they are crying out for.
Her sister and brother are hiding in a basement in one of the occupied zones. Very scared.
Dark days
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1498648785442021376
Are they accepting Crimea?
Perhaps if he desisted from the grandstanding in the first place there would be less opportunity for him to be hijacked.
Still I find it interesting that some posters get a giggle about comparing people to Nazis.
When what they are opposed to is people with actual Nazi fucking tattoos.
Even the worst leaders can occasionally get something right.
And your grasp of WWII history is limited. Or perhaps your point of view is fixed.
https://twitter.com/tichy_e/status/1498621337702703106
They have accepted the application form, and said that they effectively support the process starting. Which will still take years, and the Euro Parl are not the ones who get to make the final decision on their own.
It's putting down a marker, just as Mr Z was when he put the application in.
In autumn 1939 we may have gone to war after the Nazis invaded Poland, however by late spring 1940 British forces were at Dunkirk being evacuated back to Britain to defend the UK after not only Poland but France too had fallen to the Nazis
- What threats Russia comes up with as a result of this
- Who will condemn the EU for "provoking" Russia.
That aircraft is currently Tornado, which are now nearly half a century old and Germany has been pfaffing about the replacement for a decade. F35 is I think being adapted to carry it, and they may not be able to adapt Eurofighter due to politics with the French not wanting the USA to see European fighter tech.
To go to your post “ all the usual suspects that the EU was weak” so they are doing it in a “I’m tougher, tougher than you” one up man ship? That is what you are saying.
I think it pours something very bad over this burning crisis, when wise heads would have done the opposite. I think this makes EU decision making look stupid. I think this is wrong and dangerous.
I think we are beginning to see the worst of our nightmares - the West getting too invested and unable to sit back and watch Ukraine lose, so this slips into a different type of crisis.
We accepted that of Eastern Europe after WWII, because the Red Army was strong enough to make it a reality, even before the USSR had nuclear weapons.
The whole point of the conflict is that Ukraine does not accept being part of the Russian sphere of influence. Why should we stand aside militarily and implicitly accept that?
I don't believe Russia would use nukes to defend its paltry territorial gains within Ukraine.
And anyway Russia seems to be manufacturing loads of ever more ridiculous reasons for its invasion .
Le Pen can try and pretend she wasn’t a Putin stooge but Macron will be very happy to remind the public .
While direct military intervention is quite rightly off the table, this is a political, not military move which helps cement the status of the Ukraine government. Whether Putin likes it or not is quite irrelevant. it's not about being 'tough', but about insisting on a country's rights.