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Le Pen and Zemmour still haven’t got enough nominations – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,893
    darkage said:

    Nice bit of profiteering going on here, on the part of the Home office.

    "Ms Klymova crossed the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then flew to Paris to meet her mother, where they are grappling with a slow and bureaucratic process.

    After a lot of confusion, they have now applied for a standard visitor's visa - their only option - which came with what she described as a "horrendous fee".

    The family was told that a fast-track, next-working-day visa costs €1,312 (£1,100), while a five-day processing visa costs €394 (£329) - plus a €120 (£100) appointment fee.

    Ms Klymova did not qualify for the fee waiver recently announced by the Home Office because she is not a British citizen."

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-please-help-british-man-appeals-for-uk-visa-rules-to-be-relaxed-to-save-family-trapped-in-ukraine-12554367

    There was a story on the radio yesterday of someone trying to arrange visas for family fleeing Ukraine over the weekend. The department dealing with visas in our embassy was shut all day Saturday and Sunday!
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    I guess he's not being paid in roubles.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,469

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    I wonder if some of the confusion is due to a misunderstanding about how the aircraft would get to Ukraine?

    Obviously they won't be flying sorties over Ukraine from Polish bases - the prospect of that, understandably, generated enormous concern.

    But I imagine that Ukrainian pilots would have to fly the planes from Poland to bases in Ukraine, in the first place.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    I don't know want to unsettle everyone even more unecessarily, but there's another fact, maybe to be accustomed to from now ; Putin's ships have been sniffing around undersea internet cables for a couple of years now, and no one's known why.

    This is all somewhat of a surreal nightmare, which i hope we're all about to wake up from with the help of some Russian insiders.

    One of the oligarch's "yachts" Ragnok was recently boarded in Norway amidst suspicions it had a cable-cutting capability within it....

    https://www.world-today-news.com/the-armed-forces-coast-guard-and-the-police-acted-against-russian-luxury-yacht-ragnar-in-narvik-nrk-nordland/
    Cable-cutting would be an act of war though, wouldn't it?

    And of course there are probably some Russian cables that could be cut in return.
    Why would you use a watch for cable cutting? Surely a submarine or a warship with depth charges would make a better job?
    Even a stopped yacht tells the right time twice a day.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,497

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    How many times does it need to be said NATO and the EU are simply not going to become directly involved in the defence of Ukraine.

    Any such assistance would need to come through Poland and that would mean possible if not likely targeting of Poland by Russia. That is not a game that anyone wants to play.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,748

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    I wonder if some of the confusion is due to a misunderstanding about how the aircraft would get to Ukraine?

    Obviously they won't be flying sorties over Ukraine from Polish bases - the prospect of that, understandably, generated enormous concern.

    But I imagine that Ukrainian pilots would have to fly the planes from Poland to bases in Ukraine, in the first place.
    During WWII, IIRC, America got round some of the restrictions on neutrals providing arms, by pushing aircraft across into Canada, without engines or guns.....
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,015

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    Why on earth would Poland send their military jets in to Ukraine? That would be very silly indeed.

    Much easier to sell them for $1 each to the Ukranians, missiles loaded and fuelled to the gunnels, and invite the new owners to send over some pilots to collect them, after some careful application of blue and yellow paint…
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,910
    Nigelb said:

    No idea how valid this is, but US officials briefing NBC news...

    "The US has solid intelligence that Putin is frustrated and expressing unusual bursts of anger at people in his inner circle over the state of the military campaign so far and the worldwide condemnation of his actions," according to 2 current US officials.
    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1498491928471654400

    This means the US has someone senior on the inside. Either that or (less likely) extremely good bugging capabilities. The detailed shared intel ahead of the invasion suggested similar.

    That will, presumably, make Putin even more paranoid about his inner circle.

    I have to say so far the US has done very well, including the way they've avoided excessive escalation rhetoric. I hope it continues.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,115
    darkage said:

    Nice bit of profiteering going on here, on the part of the Home office.

    "Ms Klymova crossed the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then flew to Paris to meet her mother, where they are grappling with a slow and bureaucratic process.

    After a lot of confusion, they have now applied for a standard visitor's visa - their only option - which came with what she described as a "horrendous fee".

    The family was told that a fast-track, next-working-day visa costs €1,312 (£1,100), while a five-day processing visa costs €394 (£329) - plus a €120 (£100) appointment fee.

    Ms Klymova did not qualify for the fee waiver recently announced by the Home Office because she is not a British citizen."

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-please-help-british-man-appeals-for-uk-visa-rules-to-be-relaxed-to-save-family-trapped-in-ukraine-12554367

    Wasn't that the woman featured on the BBC, about whom Priti Patel told Yvette Cooper in the Commons that everything would be sorted?
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,386
    Sean_F said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    I guess he's not being paid in roubles.
    He is still correct. Whatever he is being paid in.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,469
    On matters Scotch.

    The SNP have chosen today to launch their 10-year masterplan for the Scottish economy.

    On Covid grounds, they have excluded all journalists from the event, so no questions could be asked. (Although mysteriously, there was no problem in letting business reps attend).

    I do wonder if these provocations will eventually lead to the supine Scottish media actually holding ScotGov to account for its multiple failings. Not holding my breath.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisGreenNews/status/1498607085960843268

    "In her speech, the Finance Secretary made one passing mention of a second referendum on independence, which the Scottish Government is aiming to hold next year."

    LOL
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,115
    Sean_F said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    I guess he's not being paid in roubles.
    I guess he's not being paid in roubles now.
    Fixed it for you.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,910

    🚨NEW VOTING INTENTION 🚨

    CON 35 (-5)
    LAB 42 (+10)
    LD 8 (+2)
    SNP 5 (-1)
    PLD 1 (=)
    GRN 6 (-3)
    RUK 2 (-1)
    OTHER 2 (=)

    @NCPoliticsUK @mattsingh for @itvpeston

    Fieldwork: 21st-28th Feb 2022 (changes on 11th-18th Oct 2021)
    N:2001

    https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1498616790246694919

    Polls are irrelevant again?

    LLG at 55%. Yet again in the 54-57 zone.
  • Options
    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,978
    edited March 2022

    On matters Scotch.

    The SNP have chosen today to launch their 10-year masterplan for the Scottish economy.

    On Covid grounds, they have excluded all journalists from the event, so no questions could be asked. (Although mysteriously, there was no problem in letting business reps attend).

    I do wonder if these provocations will eventually lead to the supine Scottish media actually holding ScotGov to account for its multiple failings. Not holding my breath.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisGreenNews/status/1498607085960843268

    "In her speech, the Finance Secretary made one passing mention of a second referendum on independence, which the Scottish Government is aiming to hold next year."

    LOL

    Probably a good time to publish if you want no-one to read it / not really serious about holding a referendum anyway
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,377
    edited March 2022

    Carnyx said:

    We all focussed on Chelsea but the Ev might be in trouble.

    Everton investor Alisher Usmanov has assets frozen due to close ties with Vladimir Putin

    Unclear if club will be hit after sanctions against Russian billionaire, including travel ban and 'prohibition from making funds available'


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/02/28/everton-investor-alisher-usmanov-has-assets-frozen-due-close/

    Two of my disliked teams in trouble because they sold their souls assets to Russians. Hope they both go bust, then it’s just Glasgow Rangers to get rid of.
    Rangers have already come back from the dead once. They would probably survive a nuclear war.
    Rangers fans get very upset when naughty opposition fans call them zombies, perhaps cockroaches might go down better?
    Careful; someone here might be a Celtic fan who'd LOVE that!
    Why do you think Hollywood likes filming zombie and vampire films in Glasgow?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcR5KHjoc-0
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQMilHlPD1A
    Then again when Holywood chose to film Batman, set of course in Gotham City infamous for its crime and corruption where else to film that than Liverpool?

    https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/tv/liverpools-transformation-gotham-city-batman-23130148
    The 'Moscow' bits of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy [BBC version] were apparently filmed in Dundee.
    Maybe TTSS as well (I think Glasgow also figured), but An Englishman Abroad was the big one. The Caird Hall festooned in Soviet banners gave quite a lot of the locals a warm fuzzy feeling.


  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,187
    Nigelb said:

    No idea how valid this is, but US officials briefing NBC news...

    "The US has solid intelligence that Putin is frustrated and expressing unusual bursts of anger at people in his inner circle over the state of the military campaign so far and the worldwide condemnation of his actions," according to 2 current US officials.
    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1498491928471654400

    It must have come as a huge shock to Putin. Perhaps instead, Russia should have as its leader somebody whose entire career was in intelli....oh.
  • Options

    There's been a lot of backslapping about good intelligence, but in the long-run this is the biggest intelligence failure in history.

    Putin has been planning something vile for years, and the Western intelligence agencies haven't had the first sniff of it.

    Alternatively, in the defence of our hard pressed security people you are trying to smear on behalf of our politicians, they weren’t listened to, Russia Report and all that. A senior Tory MP had whip withdrawn for trying to get Russia report into public knowledge.

    Here’s a person saying “careful there” here’s another person offering out lovely rubles and rens.
    I'm not trying the smear the intelligence services; they have done an excellent job in the last two months, and the incredible naivety of the west in allowing so much money in has definitely played a big role, but something's clearly gone very badly wrong there.
    GCHQ has long been recognised as world-class. Its reputation is, if anything, being enhanced by the current conflict.

    It is only about five miles down the road from where I live. I've been past many times but they don't encourage casual callers so I've never got closer than the A40. I'm never completely sure whether it is good or bad to be close to such a key facility in the event of nuclear war. Perhaps other PBers could let me have their views.

    I suspect on balance it is good, because it will be better protected than most of the UK, but if it is bad I'll just say 'So long...and thanks for all the fish.'
    Didn't the Dolphins live?
    Being the second most intelligent species on the planet (mice were the most intelligent\0 they legged it just before the Vogons arrived.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,556
    edited March 2022
    Essexit said:

    HYUFD said:


    Shaun Walker
    @shaunwalker7
    ·
    1h
    Putin’s long-standing goals:

    - Economic prosperity, or at least stability, to compare with the chaotic 1990s
    - Have a ukraine friendly or at least neutral to Moscow
    - Create divides in the West to undermine any sanctions or other hostile policies

    All up in smoke in six days.

    If I were China, I might be tempted to move my armed forces up to the Russian border.

    It would cause Putin a big headache, because he can't keep all his troops tied up in Ukraine. China gets to be seen to be a good guy by us in working to protect its European markets (and not insignificant investments in Ukraine).

    And who knows, whilst everyone thinks they are after Taiwan, a blitzkrieg of their own could steal all of Russia's hydrocarbons east of the Urals....
    Too much nuclear risk, what with him being a bit loopy. They could cause him all sorts of trouble, though, and probably bring him down very quickly if and when they want, with a mix of economic and military manoeuvres. China is the last major economic pillar standing for him.
    Exactly why would China risk war with a current ally and nuclear armed military superpower when Xi clearly has Putin's support to invade Taiwan which is what he really wants while Putin has distracted the west by invading Ukraine and when he knows Biden would do little bar economic sanctions about it anyway?
    Because they'll never have a better chance to have a massive mineral-rich land grab?

    They may consider that currently, Russia is a spent force. China isn't going to be selling much to Russia for the next decade. No-one is.

    Of course I'm not saying it is very likely. But I'd be surprised if there weren't a massive planning exercise going on in Beijing right now, just to consider all their options.
    China isn't playing Civ and trying to grab all the land and resources it can wherever they are. Their priority is Taiwan and it's not clear how nobbling Russia helps them get that.
    China regards the 19th century treaties with Russia that gave up some Chinese land to Russia as unequal treaties - equivalent to the treaties that ended the Opium Wars.

    Taiwan is certainly a higher priority, but they certainly regard some land currently held by Russia as rightfully their own.
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,156

    Carnyx said:

    We all focussed on Chelsea but the Ev might be in trouble.

    Everton investor Alisher Usmanov has assets frozen due to close ties with Vladimir Putin

    Unclear if club will be hit after sanctions against Russian billionaire, including travel ban and 'prohibition from making funds available'


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/02/28/everton-investor-alisher-usmanov-has-assets-frozen-due-close/

    Two of my disliked teams in trouble because they sold their souls assets to Russians. Hope they both go bust, then it’s just Glasgow Rangers to get rid of.
    Rangers have already come back from the dead once. They would probably survive a nuclear war.
    Rangers fans get very upset when naughty opposition fans call them zombies, perhaps cockroaches might go down better?
    Careful; someone here might be a Celtic fan who'd LOVE that!
    Why do you think Hollywood likes filming zombie and vampire films in Glasgow?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcR5KHjoc-0
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQMilHlPD1A
    Then again when Holywood chose to film Batman, set of course in Gotham City infamous for its crime and corruption where else to film that than Liverpool?

    https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/tv/liverpools-transformation-gotham-city-batman-23130148
    The 'Moscow' bits of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy [BBC version] were apparently filmed in Dundee.
    Do you mean the ones in Brno? They were filmed in Glasgow, I thought?
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,803

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Until this war started I was watching a lot of GB News because I agreed with their stance on the Woke stuff. Stopped watching now because I don't like their attitude on Putin and Russia.

    Somebody on Twitter this morning claims they are owned/funded by Gazprom
    Lots of rethinking going on at both ends of the spectrum. Finnish opinion polls suggest a complete reversal of attitudes to NATO from solid opposition to solid support. Swedish polls also moving that way. Here, the Morning Star is highlighting campaigners' claims of Russian use of illegal cluster munitions. Sabine Wageknecht, who leads the communist wing of Die Linke in Germany, has apologised for mistakenly thinking that Putin wouldn't invade and says she is rethinking her attitude towards Russia. And so on across the continent. A side-effect of all this may be a pretty broad consensus across Western Europe on the need for solid defence policies. Not quite what Putin had in mind, I imagine.
    UK Green Party policy is, I believe, to leave NATO.
    Point of information: there is no such thing as a UK Green Party. There are 3 parties: E&W, NI and S.
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,533
    TOPPING said:

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    How many times does it need to be said NATO and the EU are simply not going to become directly involved in the defence of Ukraine.

    Any such assistance would need to come through Poland and that would mean possible if not likely targeting of Poland by Russia. That is not a game that anyone wants to play.
    I agree there appears that a lot of the nervousness seems to centre around the “what ifs” that are unlikely to come about.

    What if NATO forces directly intervene? What if there is a no fly zone?

    The simple fact remains that we see absolutely no indication from the US that it is even considering that option. It has on the other hand been very quick to say that is not on the table.

    I think that in the social media and Internet age we are quick to jump upon utterances from all and sundry about these decisions, but the fact remains that any decision to make such commitment is a NATO commitment, and without the US that will not happen.

    I would be more concerned of the danger of stray missiles etc than I would be about escalation via this route.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,041
    edited March 2022
    darkage said:

    Nice bit of profiteering going on here, on the part of the Home office.

    "Ms Klymova crossed the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then flew to Paris to meet her mother, where they are grappling with a slow and bureaucratic process.

    After a lot of confusion, they have now applied for a standard visitor's visa - their only option - which came with what she described as a "horrendous fee".

    The family was told that a fast-track, next-working-day visa costs €1,312 (£1,100), while a five-day processing visa costs €394 (£329) - plus a €120 (£100) appointment fee.

    Ms Klymova did not qualify for the fee waiver recently announced by the Home Office because she is not a British citizen."

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-please-help-british-man-appeals-for-uk-visa-rules-to-be-relaxed-to-save-family-trapped-in-ukraine-12554367

    darkage said:

    Nice bit of profiteering going on here, on the part of the Home office.

    "Ms Klymova crossed the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then flew to Paris to meet her mother, where they are grappling with a slow and bureaucratic process.

    After a lot of confusion, they have now applied for a standard visitor's visa - their only option - which came with what she described as a "horrendous fee".

    The family was told that a fast-track, next-working-day visa costs €1,312 (£1,100), while a five-day processing visa costs €394 (£329) - plus a €120 (£100) appointment fee.

    Ms Klymova did not qualify for the fee waiver recently announced by the Home Office because she is not a British citizen."

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-please-help-british-man-appeals-for-uk-visa-rules-to-be-relaxed-to-save-family-trapped-in-ukraine-12554367

    Wasn't that the woman featured on the BBC, about whom Priti Patel told Yvette Cooper in the Commons that everything would be sorted?
    She's not coming in.
    Sorted.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,910

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I don't agree. The West has launched a series of extremely strong economic and financial sanctions on Russia, which will take days or weeks to take full effect. Meanwhile Ukraine is fighting a very clever war of physical attrition, particularly on logistics and fuel supplies, and is winning the cyber and propaganda war hands down.

    These take time to take effect. Any escalation now needs to be considered carefully, and calculated to deliver the most impact for least loss of hearts and minds and moral high ground and least risk of Russian military escalation.

    Best case strategy seems to be to allow Russian troops and public lose heart and give up.

    The Taliban didn't keep escalating in Afghanistan until the US were defeated. They kept nibbling away, relentlessly, for 20 years until the US left of their own accord, and then strolled in unopposed and took control. The West needs to Be More Taliban.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Latest Baxter Election Prediction:

    Lab 311
    Con 245
    SNP 59
    LD 10
    PC 5
    Grn 1
    Speaker 1
    NI 18

    Labour short 15 seats of majority
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,115
    dixiedean said:

    darkage said:

    Nice bit of profiteering going on here, on the part of the Home office.

    "Ms Klymova crossed the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then flew to Paris to meet her mother, where they are grappling with a slow and bureaucratic process.

    After a lot of confusion, they have now applied for a standard visitor's visa - their only option - which came with what she described as a "horrendous fee".

    The family was told that a fast-track, next-working-day visa costs €1,312 (£1,100), while a five-day processing visa costs €394 (£329) - plus a €120 (£100) appointment fee.

    Ms Klymova did not qualify for the fee waiver recently announced by the Home Office because she is not a British citizen."

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-please-help-british-man-appeals-for-uk-visa-rules-to-be-relaxed-to-save-family-trapped-in-ukraine-12554367

    darkage said:

    Nice bit of profiteering going on here, on the part of the Home office.

    "Ms Klymova crossed the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then flew to Paris to meet her mother, where they are grappling with a slow and bureaucratic process.

    After a lot of confusion, they have now applied for a standard visitor's visa - their only option - which came with what she described as a "horrendous fee".

    The family was told that a fast-track, next-working-day visa costs €1,312 (£1,100), while a five-day processing visa costs €394 (£329) - plus a €120 (£100) appointment fee.

    Ms Klymova did not qualify for the fee waiver recently announced by the Home Office because she is not a British citizen."

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-please-help-british-man-appeals-for-uk-visa-rules-to-be-relaxed-to-save-family-trapped-in-ukraine-12554367

    Wasn't that the woman featured on the BBC, about whom Priti Patel told Yvette Cooper in the Commons that everything would be sorted?
    She's not coming in.
    Sorted.
    When one thinks about the treatment given to the friends and neighbours of Ms Patel's parents.......
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,187

    🚨NEW VOTING INTENTION 🚨

    CON 35 (-5)
    LAB 42 (+10)
    LD 8 (+2)
    SNP 5 (-1)
    PLD 1 (=)
    GRN 6 (-3)
    RUK 2 (-1)
    OTHER 2 (=)

    @NCPoliticsUK @mattsingh for @itvpeston

    Fieldwork: 21st-28th Feb 2022 (changes on 11th-18th Oct 2021)
    N:2001

    https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1498616790246694919

    Polls are irrelevant again?

    Always.

    That's changes since Oct 2021 so not really surprising at all, but yes that's utterly irrelevant just as October's Con 40, Lab 32 was utterly irrelevant as well.
    No election until May 2024 nailed on.

    Anyone want to say how our politics is going to look in May 2022, never mind 2024?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,910
    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    Exactly my thoughts. Moral high ground is an extremely valuable commodity that we currently have in abundance. We should avoid frittering it away.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,554
    Phil Stewart
    @phildstewart
    ·
    16m
    Public health experts say Ukraine is running low on critical medical supplies and fears of a wider public health crisis are growing as people flee their homes and health services and supplies are interrupted.

    https://twitter.com/phildstewart
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,893
    TimS said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I don't agree. The West has launched a series of extremely strong economic and financial sanctions on Russia, which will take days or weeks to take full effect. Meanwhile Ukraine is fighting a very clever war of physical attrition, particularly on logistics and fuel supplies, and is winning the cyber and propaganda war hands down.

    These take time to take effect. Any escalation now needs to be considered carefully, and calculated to deliver the most impact for least loss of hearts and minds and moral high ground and least risk of Russian military escalation.

    Best case strategy seems to be to allow Russian troops and public lose heart and give up.

    The Taliban didn't keep escalating in Afghanistan until the US were defeated. They kept nibbling away, relentlessly, for 20 years until the US left of their own accord, and then strolled in unopposed and took control. The West needs to Be More Taliban.
    Good post, not sure about the Taliban analogy but yes we have Russia in a bear squeeze that is working. Squeezing too tight could can be as bad as not squeezing at all.
  • Options
    I understand Jess Phillips has joined Rachel Reeves in being investigated by Katherine Stone over donations
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,257

    GCHQ has long been recognised as world-class. Its reputation is, if anything, being enhanced by the current conflict.

    It is only about five miles down the road from where I live. I've been past many times but they don't encourage casual callers so I've never got closer than the A40.

    I have been in it.

    Nice chicken curry in the canteen
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,187

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Until this war started I was watching a lot of GB News because I agreed with their stance on the Woke stuff. Stopped watching now because I don't like their attitude on Putin and Russia.

    Somebody on Twitter this morning claims they are owned/funded by Gazprom
    Lots of rethinking going on at both ends of the spectrum. Finnish opinion polls suggest a complete reversal of attitudes to NATO from solid opposition to solid support. Swedish polls also moving that way. Here, the Morning Star is highlighting campaigners' claims of Russian use of illegal cluster munitions. Sabine Wageknecht, who leads the communist wing of Die Linke in Germany, has apologised for mistakenly thinking that Putin wouldn't invade and says she is rethinking her attitude towards Russia. And so on across the continent. A side-effect of all this may be a pretty broad consensus across Western Europe on the need for solid defence policies. Not quite what Putin had in mind, I imagine.
    UK Green Party policy is, I believe, to leave NATO.
    Point of information: there is no such thing as a UK Green Party. There are 3 parties: E&W, NI and S.
    And all three want to leave NATO....
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,156
    edited March 2022
    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    🚨NEW VOTING INTENTION 🚨

    CON 35 (-5)
    LAB 42 (+10)
    LD 8 (+2)
    SNP 5 (-1)
    PLD 1 (=)
    GRN 6 (-3)
    RUK 2 (-1)
    OTHER 2 (=)

    @NCPoliticsUK @mattsingh for @itvpeston

    Fieldwork: 21st-28th Feb 2022 (changes on 11th-18th Oct 2021)
    N:2001

    https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1498616790246694919

    Polls are irrelevant again?

    Always.

    That's changes since Oct 2021 so not really surprising at all, but yes that's utterly irrelevant just as October's Con 40, Lab 32 was utterly irrelevant as well.
    No election until May 2024 nailed on.

    Anyone want to say how our politics is going to look in May 2022, never mind 2024?
    The European sub-continent might not be inhabitable for Homo sapiens by May 2022.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,748

    Phil Stewart
    @phildstewart
    ·
    16m
    Public health experts say Ukraine is running low on critical medical supplies and fears of a wider public health crisis are growing as people flee their homes and health services and supplies are interrupted.

    https://twitter.com/phildstewart

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/02/majority-of-ukrainian-hospitals-could-run-out-of-oxygen-today-as-omicron-rages-who/
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,846

    I don't know want to unsettle everyone even more unecessarily, but there's another fact, maybe to be accustomed to from now ; Putin's ships have been sniffing around undersea internet cables for a couple of years now, and no one's known why.

    This is all somewhat of a surreal nightmare, which i hope we're all about to wake up from with the help of some Russian insiders.

    One of the oligarch's "yachts" Ragnok was recently boarded in Norway amidst suspicions it had a cable-cutting capability within it....

    https://www.world-today-news.com/the-armed-forces-coast-guard-and-the-police-acted-against-russian-luxury-yacht-ragnar-in-narvik-nrk-nordland/
    Cable-cutting would be an act of war though, wouldn't it?

    And of course there are probably some Russian cables that could be cut in return.
    You need to be able to prove who did it.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,556

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    There is some degree of nuance, in that a slow defeat for Putin would involve less escalation from the West, and so less risk of WWIII, but at the price of higher Ukrainian casualties, and a greater risk of victory for Putin.

    The key thing, though, is that we either defeat Putin now, which necessarily involves escalation to an extent, or we will have to defeat Putin later.
  • Options
    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    St Pete's is a possibility.

    It's always been a very 'european' city. We'd probably have quite a few of the locals on our side, a factor which Putin might acknowledge as making a bit of a difference.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,803
    dixiedean said:

    darkage said:

    Nice bit of profiteering going on here, on the part of the Home office.

    "Ms Klymova crossed the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then flew to Paris to meet her mother, where they are grappling with a slow and bureaucratic process.

    After a lot of confusion, they have now applied for a standard visitor's visa - their only option - which came with what she described as a "horrendous fee".

    The family was told that a fast-track, next-working-day visa costs €1,312 (£1,100), while a five-day processing visa costs €394 (£329) - plus a €120 (£100) appointment fee.

    Ms Klymova did not qualify for the fee waiver recently announced by the Home Office because she is not a British citizen."

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-please-help-british-man-appeals-for-uk-visa-rules-to-be-relaxed-to-save-family-trapped-in-ukraine-12554367

    darkage said:

    Nice bit of profiteering going on here, on the part of the Home office.

    "Ms Klymova crossed the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then flew to Paris to meet her mother, where they are grappling with a slow and bureaucratic process.

    After a lot of confusion, they have now applied for a standard visitor's visa - their only option - which came with what she described as a "horrendous fee".

    The family was told that a fast-track, next-working-day visa costs €1,312 (£1,100), while a five-day processing visa costs €394 (£329) - plus a €120 (£100) appointment fee.

    Ms Klymova did not qualify for the fee waiver recently announced by the Home Office because she is not a British citizen."

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-please-help-british-man-appeals-for-uk-visa-rules-to-be-relaxed-to-save-family-trapped-in-ukraine-12554367

    Wasn't that the woman featured on the BBC, about whom Priti Patel told Yvette Cooper in the Commons that everything would be sorted?
    She's not coming in.
    Sorted.
    Its for a relative of a Ukrainian who lives in the UK.

    I said before that the UK shouldn't 'open the doors' to refugees and still hold that position. But the Home Office insistence that Ukranians must pay extortionate visa fees is a catastrophic own PR goal. The eye watering visa fees become the story, not the other more positive stuff the government is doing regarding Ukraine. The Home Office is a dinosaur and absolutely clueless in relation to PR, it is a major liability for the government in all sorts of ways.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,893
    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    Then the Communist world was supported by belief in an ideology supported by many globally. Mafia kleptocracy and might is right won't attract that level of support (outside the world of Trump and Fox). Also everything is accelerated in life now.

    Fairly confident Russia wont be in Kiev in 5 years time, and think it more likely than not, that they leave within a month or two.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Until this war started I was watching a lot of GB News because I agreed with their stance on the Woke stuff. Stopped watching now because I don't like their attitude on Putin and Russia.

    Somebody on Twitter this morning claims they are owned/funded by Gazprom
    Lots of rethinking going on at both ends of the spectrum. Finnish opinion polls suggest a complete reversal of attitudes to NATO from solid opposition to solid support. Swedish polls also moving that way. Here, the Morning Star is highlighting campaigners' claims of Russian use of illegal cluster munitions. Sabine Wageknecht, who leads the communist wing of Die Linke in Germany, has apologised for mistakenly thinking that Putin wouldn't invade and says she is rethinking her attitude towards Russia. And so on across the continent. A side-effect of all this may be a pretty broad consensus across Western Europe on the need for solid defence policies. Not quite what Putin had in mind, I imagine.
    UK Green Party policy is, I believe, to leave NATO.
    Point of information: there is no such thing as a UK Green Party. There are 3 parties: E&W, NI and S.
    And all three want to leave NATO....
    It is the word “Party” which is incongruous… and redundant.
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    GCHQ has long been recognised as world-class. Its reputation is, if anything, being enhanced by the current conflict.

    It is only about five miles down the road from where I live. I've been past many times but they don't encourage casual callers so I've never got closer than the A40.

    I have been in it.

    Nice chicken curry in the canteen
    Did you chance the tea?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,377
    dixiedean said:

    darkage said:

    Nice bit of profiteering going on here, on the part of the Home office.

    "Ms Klymova crossed the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then flew to Paris to meet her mother, where they are grappling with a slow and bureaucratic process.

    After a lot of confusion, they have now applied for a standard visitor's visa - their only option - which came with what she described as a "horrendous fee".

    The family was told that a fast-track, next-working-day visa costs €1,312 (£1,100), while a five-day processing visa costs €394 (£329) - plus a €120 (£100) appointment fee.

    Ms Klymova did not qualify for the fee waiver recently announced by the Home Office because she is not a British citizen."

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-please-help-british-man-appeals-for-uk-visa-rules-to-be-relaxed-to-save-family-trapped-in-ukraine-12554367

    darkage said:

    Nice bit of profiteering going on here, on the part of the Home office.

    "Ms Klymova crossed the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then flew to Paris to meet her mother, where they are grappling with a slow and bureaucratic process.

    After a lot of confusion, they have now applied for a standard visitor's visa - their only option - which came with what she described as a "horrendous fee".

    The family was told that a fast-track, next-working-day visa costs €1,312 (£1,100), while a five-day processing visa costs €394 (£329) - plus a €120 (£100) appointment fee.

    Ms Klymova did not qualify for the fee waiver recently announced by the Home Office because she is not a British citizen."

    https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-please-help-british-man-appeals-for-uk-visa-rules-to-be-relaxed-to-save-family-trapped-in-ukraine-12554367

    Wasn't that the woman featured on the BBC, about whom Priti Patel told Yvette Cooper in the Commons that everything would be sorted?
    She's not coming in.
    Sorted.
    Obviously one of them hypothetical Ukranians.


  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,554
    Roland Oliphant
    @RolandOliphant
    ·
    3h
    Needless to say, they are speaking Russian. Because Kharkiv is a Russian speaking city, full of ethnic Russians, who must be killed by the Russian army to save them from not living in the Russian Federation. It is a cliche that war is madness, but this one really is psychotic

    https://twitter.com/RolandOliphant
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,497

    TOPPING said:

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    How many times does it need to be said NATO and the EU are simply not going to become directly involved in the defence of Ukraine.

    Any such assistance would need to come through Poland and that would mean possible if not likely targeting of Poland by Russia. That is not a game that anyone wants to play.
    I agree there appears that a lot of the nervousness seems to centre around the “what ifs” that are unlikely to come about.

    What if NATO forces directly intervene? What if there is a no fly zone?

    The simple fact remains that we see absolutely no indication from the US that it is even considering that option. It has on the other hand been very quick to say that is not on the table.

    I think that in the social media and Internet age we are quick to jump upon utterances from all and sundry about these decisions, but the fact remains that any decision to make such commitment is a NATO commitment, and without the US that will not happen.

    I would be more concerned of the danger of stray missiles etc than I would be about escalation via this route.
    Yep. There was an explicit declaration (can't find it) by the US and NATO to this effect.

    And yes also; a mistake can always push things in the very wrong direction.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,804
    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    No idea how valid this is, but US officials briefing NBC news...

    "The US has solid intelligence that Putin is frustrated and expressing unusual bursts of anger at people in his inner circle over the state of the military campaign so far and the worldwide condemnation of his actions," according to 2 current US officials.
    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1498491928471654400

    This means the US has someone senior on the inside. Either that or (less likely) extremely good bugging capabilities. The detailed shared intel ahead of the invasion suggested similar.

    That will, presumably, make Putin even more paranoid about his inner circle.

    I have to say so far the US has done very well, including the way they've avoided excessive escalation rhetoric. I hope it continues.
    It may well be a sensible attempt to feed his paranoia even if they do not have bugs or someone on the inside. It wouldn't be a difficult guess that he "is frustrated and expressing unusual bursts of anger at people", as this is what despots do when things don't go their way
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211
    edited March 2022

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    Then the Communist world was supported by belief in an ideology supported by many globally. Mafia kleptocracy and might is right won't attract that level of support (outside the world of Trump and Fox). Also everything is accelerated in life now.

    Fairly confident Russia wont be in Kiev in 5 years time, and think it more likely than not, that they leave within a month or two.
    Optimistic.

    The main opposition party to Putin's United Russia party in the Russian Duma is indeed the Communist Party and combined the 2 got 69% of the vote in the Russian legislative elections last year.

  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,846

    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    The war is building into a massacre of Ukrainian civilians. It is proof how desparate the Russian side now is. They are pushing on all fronts and sadly they are making progress just through simple savagery. However this is a very short window. The inability of Russia to pay for anything will impact their fighting capability, but not overnight or even in a few days. The Ukrainian army and state needs to survive for weeks or even months and feeding the cities will become a problem. Only if they can stand firm will the Russian attack abate and it is asking a lot. We are entering a point of maximum danger for the Ukrainians and the Russian high command will do to Kharkiv or Kyiv what they already did to Grozny and Aleppo. War crimes indictments will surely follow.

    This marks a comprehensive break between the West and the current form of Russia. These are not sanctions, they mark the utter shunning of Russia in every single sphere of contact. The reputation of Russia and the Russians has been totally trashed and, even if the war stops tomorrow, the change in perception will be lasting.

    Johnson is arriving in Tallinn later today, but I am not sure calling for Putin´s head is such a good move. Even those who also want him gone in the regime won´t want to be pushed around so obviously, so it is likely to be counter productive, even though it is now quite clear that VVP is not a man we can do (any) business with.

    Now the tide has gone out, at least we now know who picked the wrong side: Farage, Salmond, Trump, various Tories and many others. I said that the day of reckoning would be delayed until the crisis cools, but when that happens, the reckoning should be sure and complete.

    In the meantime, Happy St. David´s Day!

    War crime indictments didn’t follow after Grozny or Aleppo did they? I’m a bit skeptical that they would now, unless Ukrainians being ‘people like us’ makes a difference. The only way Putin will face justice is at the hands of Russians.
    There was some threadbare legal coverage for those, though, as they were internal conflicts, and in the latter case Putin was invited in by the Assad regime. And as both Assad and Putin remain in power, investigation is complicated.

    Ukraine has the additional factor of being a clear war of aggression. I'm sceptical about indictments happening any time soon, too, but that last factor does make them a bit more likely in practical terms, particularly if Ukraine does not end up under full control of Putin.
    A stark statistic (this was 2016 so dunno if this has changed)

    ‘In the court’s 14-year history it has only brought charges against Africans’

    Rubbish. Most of their actual trials have been of people from the former Yugoslavia.
    Yugoslavia was a specially set up Tribunal, like Nuremburg. (But did it form the triggering precedent for the ICC ?)

    For the Court in the Hague, there's this useful map. It looks like a bias towards Africa at this stage for investigations further down the track.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_investigations



    Map's a bit of a mess colour-coding awry; Myanmar's in green, should be 'light red' and Sudan seems to be in the wrong place.
    And why light and dark red. Why not red and blue or some other clear distinction.
    Being a Wiki map, you are free to edit it over lunch :smile:
  • Options
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    How many times does it need to be said NATO and the EU are simply not going to become directly involved in the defence of Ukraine.

    Any such assistance would need to come through Poland and that would mean possible if not likely targeting of Poland by Russia. That is not a game that anyone wants to play.
    I agree there appears that a lot of the nervousness seems to centre around the “what ifs” that are unlikely to come about.

    What if NATO forces directly intervene? What if there is a no fly zone?

    The simple fact remains that we see absolutely no indication from the US that it is even considering that option. It has on the other hand been very quick to say that is not on the table.

    I think that in the social media and Internet age we are quick to jump upon utterances from all and sundry about these decisions, but the fact remains that any decision to make such commitment is a NATO commitment, and without the US that will not happen.

    I would be more concerned of the danger of stray missiles etc than I would be about escalation via this route.
    Johnson is easily stupid and impulsive enough to think an NFZ is a good idea. Fortunately he'll be told to stay in his lane by Biden.
    In his live press conference just now in Warsaw he has just publicly rejected it in response to an understandably very passionate Ukrainian journalist's appeal for it, to save all the children being slaughtered by Putin
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,804

    Astonishing pressure must be on Johnson at moment. One slip from him and Biden and we are in WWIII.

    For all that many of us loathe his character and his way of doing business we must put that all aside for time being and hope and pray he makes the right calls.

    Media starting to call for no-fly zone. Really, really terribly dangerous times.

    no-fly zone isn't going to happen. UN administered safe passage corridors for refugees out and humanitarian supplies in will almost certainly happen IMO
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,156

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    Then the Communist world was supported by belief in an ideology supported by many globally. Mafia kleptocracy and might is right won't attract that level of support (outside the world of Trump and Fox). Also everything is accelerated in life now.

    Fairly confident Russia wont be in Kiev in 5 years time, and think it more likely than not, that they leave within a month or two.
    I agree - partly because our ability to wage economic war is far greater than it was in the 80s. Globalization (and the integration of China into the Western economies) has seen to that.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,497

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated
    what would you see as the next steps in this escalation.

  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,910

    TimS said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I don't agree. The West has launched a series of extremely strong economic and financial sanctions on Russia, which will take days or weeks to take full effect. Meanwhile Ukraine is fighting a very clever war of physical attrition, particularly on logistics and fuel supplies, and is winning the cyber and propaganda war hands down.

    These take time to take effect. Any escalation now needs to be considered carefully, and calculated to deliver the most impact for least loss of hearts and minds and moral high ground and least risk of Russian military escalation.

    Best case strategy seems to be to allow Russian troops and public lose heart and give up.

    The Taliban didn't keep escalating in Afghanistan until the US were defeated. They kept nibbling away, relentlessly, for 20 years until the US left of their own accord, and then strolled in unopposed and took control. The West needs to Be More Taliban.
    Good post, not sure about the Taliban analogy but yes we have Russia in a bear squeeze that is working. Squeezing too tight could can be as bad as not squeezing at all.
    The Ukrainian army seems to be being very Taliban at the moment. Obviously not on the religious fundamentalist front (although National pride under attack can be a strong religion). Interesting difference in tactics between what the Taliban did in Afghanistan and what the various Sunni insurgents and then ISIS did in Iraq.

    The Taliban made sure occupying armies or pro-Western politicians were never safe. They nibbled away, laying IEDs on roads, launching ambushes then melting away. They inserted themselves into communities, and became middlemen in the narcotics trade. Classic guerrilla warfare. In the end, after 2 decades, they won - easily.

    The Sunni insurgents in Iraq shared some of the same tactics but they went for far bloodier and larger set piece attacks, and then took and held territory. They didn't melt away in the same way, and didn't use the countryside preferring to stick to built up areas. They kept escalating, and got ahead of themselves with their dreams of caliphates. They then were comprehensively defeated firstly in the surge on Fallujah and later as ISIS during the Syrian war. They ultimately lost heavily. (Unlike the Shia militias in the South who quite cleverly combined physical insurgency with political manoeuvring, more akin to Sinn-Fein/IRA).
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited March 2022
    That US report about his mental state is the one bit of news that's making me feel a bit a more positive today, perhaps surprisingly for some people. Together with the strangenesses around Lukashenko, something could clearly be brewing.

    I also think that the US may have got a real line of communication right into a disgruntled element of the regime, with that report. I don't think it's propaganda, and that may be why Biden has been calmer in his public signals.

    His government has been impeccably professional throughout, and he must have three decades' worth of cold war experience in his political life.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211
    edited March 2022

    Astonishing pressure must be on Johnson at moment. One slip from him and Biden and we are in WWIII.

    For all that many of us loathe his character and his way of doing business we must put that all aside for time being and hope and pray he makes the right calls.

    Media starting to call for no-fly zone. Really, really terribly dangerous times.

    Plus Macron of course, he also has nuclear weapons.

    Johnson is effectively a bridge between Macron and Scholz, who will lead the EU military and economic responses to Putin with UDVL and Biden who will lead the US military and economic response.

    At the moment it is still largely economic and will be as long as Putin just sticks to Ukraine
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,893
    HYUFD said:

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    Then the Communist world was supported by belief in an ideology supported by many globally. Mafia kleptocracy and might is right won't attract that level of support (outside the world of Trump and Fox). Also everything is accelerated in life now.

    Fairly confident Russia wont be in Kiev in 5 years time, and think it more likely than not, that they leave within a month or two.
    Optimistic.

    The main opposition party to Putin's United Russia party in the Russian Duma is indeed the Communist Party and combined the 2 got 69% of the vote in the Russian legislative elections last year.

    Events.....there have been some developments over the last week that will change lives drastically and negatively, support can only ebb away.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,545

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    St Pete's is a possibility.

    It's always been a very 'european' city. We'd probably have quite a few of the locals on our side, a factor which Putin might acknowledge as making a bit of a difference.
    So what is the future for Russia - should the west 'win'? Is Russia a nation state? What, in an ideal world, would we do with it? There's probably bits of it which might want to be independent - possibly few or none of them terribly viable or helpful to the west. Do we just put them back where they were and say 'don't do it again'? Because I can't really think of anything else.
    I can see a future in which the Ukraine and Belarus join the west. Could Russia join the west? Would we want it to? Would we trust it? Is it just too big?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,910

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    How many times does it need to be said NATO and the EU are simply not going to become directly involved in the defence of Ukraine.

    Any such assistance would need to come through Poland and that would mean possible if not likely targeting of Poland by Russia. That is not a game that anyone wants to play.
    I agree there appears that a lot of the nervousness seems to centre around the “what ifs” that are unlikely to come about.

    What if NATO forces directly intervene? What if there is a no fly zone?

    The simple fact remains that we see absolutely no indication from the US that it is even considering that option. It has on the other hand been very quick to say that is not on the table.

    I think that in the social media and Internet age we are quick to jump upon utterances from all and sundry about these decisions, but the fact remains that any decision to make such commitment is a NATO commitment, and without the US that will not happen.

    I would be more concerned of the danger of stray missiles etc than I would be about escalation via this route.
    Johnson is easily stupid and impulsive enough to think an NFZ is a good idea. Fortunately he'll be told to stay in his lane by Biden.
    In his live press conference just now in Warsaw he has just publicly rejected it in response to an understandably very passionate Ukrainian journalist's appeal for it, to save all the children being slaughtered by Putin
    I am very grateful that happened. He is, shall we say, not averse to promising things he can't deliver when put on the spot so I am glad that someone (Biden perhaps) was keeping him in check.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,803
    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    Yes - use everything that happens to isolate his regime. Was working brilliantly for a while.

    The only people that can ultimately defeat Putin are the Russians. Assuming this happens, we need to think seriously about how to avoid another Putin a few years down the line.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,497
    edited March 2022
    dixiedean said:

    I'm getting disturbed by all this talk of "escalation". COVID has affected us all, but I can't see what the practical route is here.
    And there seems a touching certainty that Putin will automatically be replaced by something better.
    I don't think that's nailed on.
    The whole thing needs the greatest care.
    I hope we are talking with the Chinese.

    @BartholomewRoberts is about to lay out his blueprint for the escalation. I am very much looking forward to seeing it.
    .
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,071
    It's taken the Government 3 days to get to the lowest sane asylum offer for Ukrainians


    Pippa Crerar
    @PippaCrerar
    · 7m
    NEW: No 10 confirms that Ukraine refugee visa scheme has now been extended to wider family.

    Home Sec Priti Patel to announce that adult parents, grandparents, children over 18 and siblings of those settled in the UK will be permitted entry.
  • Options

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Until this war started I was watching a lot of GB News because I agreed with their stance on the Woke stuff. Stopped watching now because I don't like their attitude on Putin and Russia.

    Somebody on Twitter this morning claims they are owned/funded by Gazprom
    Lots of rethinking going on at both ends of the spectrum. Finnish opinion polls suggest a complete reversal of attitudes to NATO from solid opposition to solid support. Swedish polls also moving that way. Here, the Morning Star is highlighting campaigners' claims of Russian use of illegal cluster munitions. Sabine Wageknecht, who leads the communist wing of Die Linke in Germany, has apologised for mistakenly thinking that Putin wouldn't invade and says she is rethinking her attitude towards Russia. And so on across the continent. A side-effect of all this may be a pretty broad consensus across Western Europe on the need for solid defence policies. Not quite what Putin had in mind, I imagine.
    UK Green Party policy is, I believe, to leave NATO.
    Point of information: there is no such thing as a UK Green Party. There are 3 parties: E&W, NI and S.
    And all three want to leave NATO....
    It is the word “Party” which is incongruous… and redundant.
    "The Green Party, also known as the Green Party UK, was a Green political party in the United Kingdom.

    Prior to 1985 it was called the Ecology Party, and before that PEOPLE. In 1990, it separated into three political parties:
    • the Green Party of England and Wales
    • the Scottish Greens
    • the Green Party Northern Ireland
    Despite the UK Green Party no longer existing as an entity, "Green Party" (singular) is still used colloquially to refer collectively to the three separate parties; for example, in the reporting of opinion polls and election results."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_(UK)
  • Options

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    St Pete's is a possibility.

    It's always been a very 'european' city. We'd probably have quite a few of the locals on our side, a factor which Putin might acknowledge as making a bit of a difference.
    St Petersburg is a beautiful city
  • Options
    When the next poll comes out with Labour down the usual person will be proclaiming how useful polls are again!
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,804

    Scott_xP said:

    #Poland to buy undisclosed number of MQ-9A #Reaper #drones as an urgent requirement, NMD tells @JanesINTEL. Story to come... https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1498581130513199109/photo/1

    They missed a trick in not calling them Grim Reaper drones.

    The failure so far to use drones on that mega convoy suggests that restraint might be part of ongoing back channel discussions. Such restraint has a very limited time-line. This announcement - likely after the things have actually been delivered in theatre - cranks that notion up more.
    Or Russian local air superiority?
    Depends on the closing distances. Air superiority does not mean you have aircraft in the air 100% of time. The calculation will be how quickly you can get a drone to the target before interception. The drone effectively becomes a kamikaze, because it wont make the return part of the mission..
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,041

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    St Pete's is a possibility.

    It's always been a very 'european' city. We'd probably have quite a few of the locals on our side, a factor which Putin might acknowledge as making a bit of a difference.
    St Petersburg is a beautiful city
    For now.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211
    edited March 2022
    A CNN poll finds 83% of US voters favour increased economic sanctions on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine, including 84% of Democrats and Republicans and 81% of Independents.

    However only 42% back military action against Russia by the US, with 58% opposed, even if sanctions fail. 60% of Independents and 56% of Democrats and Republicans oppose US military action in Ukraine
    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/28/politics/cnn-poll-russia-ukraine-us-aid/index.html
  • Options
    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    How many times does it need to be said NATO and the EU are simply not going to become directly involved in the defence of Ukraine.

    Any such assistance would need to come through Poland and that would mean possible if not likely targeting of Poland by Russia. That is not a game that anyone wants to play.
    I agree there appears that a lot of the nervousness seems to centre around the “what ifs” that are unlikely to come about.

    What if NATO forces directly intervene? What if there is a no fly zone?

    The simple fact remains that we see absolutely no indication from the US that it is even considering that option. It has on the other hand been very quick to say that is not on the table.

    I think that in the social media and Internet age we are quick to jump upon utterances from all and sundry about these decisions, but the fact remains that any decision to make such commitment is a NATO commitment, and without the US that will not happen.

    I would be more concerned of the danger of stray missiles etc than I would be about escalation via this route.
    Johnson is easily stupid and impulsive enough to think an NFZ is a good idea. Fortunately he'll be told to stay in his lane by Biden.
    In his live press conference just now in Warsaw he has just publicly rejected it in response to an understandably very passionate Ukrainian journalist's appeal for it, to save all the children being slaughtered by Putin
    I am very grateful that happened. He is, shall we say, not averse to promising things he can't deliver when put on the spot so I am glad that someone (Biden perhaps) was keeping him in check.
    Here is the video - very tough question to be fair

    PM berated over Ukraine

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-12554735
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,804
    TOPPING said:

    dixiedean said:

    I'm getting disturbed by all this talk of "escalation". COVID has affected us all, but I can't see what the practical route is here.
    And there seems a touching certainty that Putin will automatically be replaced by something better.
    I don't think that's nailed on.
    The whole thing needs the greatest care.
    I hope we are talking with the Chinese.

    @BartholomewRoberts is about to lay out his blueprint for the escalation. I am very much looking forward to seeing it.
    .
    He is writing a new book called "Armchair General-ing for Dummies". It is probably in there somewhere
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,156
    HYUFD said:

    Astonishing pressure must be on Johnson at moment. One slip from him and Biden and we are in WWIII.

    For all that many of us loathe his character and his way of doing business we must put that all aside for time being and hope and pray he makes the right calls.

    Media starting to call for no-fly zone. Really, really terribly dangerous times.

    Plus Macron of course, he also has nuclear weapons.

    Johnson is effectively a bridge between Macron and Scholz, who will lead the EU military and economic responses to Putin with UDVL and Biden who will lead the US military and economic response.

    At the moment it is still largely economic and will be as long as Putin just sticks to Ukraine
    Why does Biden need a bridge - or rather, how does UKGov provide it? When we were in the EU, having a US-aligned partner with voting rights and policy influence was a huge benefit to the US. We're outside all that now, just like the US, so what do we bring to the party?
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,075
    TOPPING said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated
    what would you see as the next steps in this escalation.

    Send Frosty (other 35+ BMI gammony tories are available) to negotiate with Lavrov.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    When the next poll comes out with Labour down the usual person will be proclaiming how useful polls are again!

    T’was always thus.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,910
    edited March 2022
    Cookie said:

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    St Pete's is a possibility.

    It's always been a very 'european' city. We'd probably have quite a few of the locals on our side, a factor which Putin might acknowledge as making a bit of a difference.
    So what is the future for Russia - should the west 'win'? Is Russia a nation state? What, in an ideal world, would we do with it? There's probably bits of it which might want to be independent - possibly few or none of them terribly viable or helpful to the west. Do we just put them back where they were and say 'don't do it again'? Because I can't really think of anything else.
    I can see a future in which the Ukraine and Belarus join the west. Could Russia join the west? Would we want it to? Would we trust it? Is it just too big?
    Optimistic reading is that this is Russia's Suez, or (perhaps closer to the truth) Algeria. A post -imperial moment where it is forced to come to terms with its relative decline and give up an empire. Britain and France have had to go through this very painful process (and Zemmour in France and elements of the far right in the UK show we're not completely over it yet), but have done so while remaining important and economically successful world players.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,823

    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    How many times does it need to be said NATO and the EU are simply not going to become directly involved in the defence of Ukraine.

    Any such assistance would need to come through Poland and that would mean possible if not likely targeting of Poland by Russia. That is not a game that anyone wants to play.
    I agree there appears that a lot of the nervousness seems to centre around the “what ifs” that are unlikely to come about.

    What if NATO forces directly intervene? What if there is a no fly zone?

    The simple fact remains that we see absolutely no indication from the US that it is even considering that option. It has on the other hand been very quick to say that is not on the table.

    I think that in the social media and Internet age we are quick to jump upon utterances from all and sundry about these decisions, but the fact remains that any decision to make such commitment is a NATO commitment, and without the US that will not happen.

    I would be more concerned of the danger of stray missiles etc than I would be about escalation via this route.
    Johnson is easily stupid and impulsive enough to think an NFZ is a good idea. Fortunately he'll be told to stay in his lane by Biden.
    In his live press conference just now in Warsaw he has just publicly rejected it in response to an understandably very passionate Ukrainian journalist's appeal for it, to save all the children being slaughtered by Putin
    I am very grateful that happened. He is, shall we say, not averse to promising things he can't deliver when put on the spot so I am glad that someone (Biden perhaps) was keeping him in check.
    Here is the video - very tough question to be fair

    PM berated over Ukraine

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-12554735
    I thought he handled that very well.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    Cicero said:

    The war is building into a massacre of Ukrainian civilians. It is proof how desparate the Russian side now is. They are pushing on all fronts and sadly they are making progress just through simple savagery. However this is a very short window. The inability of Russia to pay for anything will impact their fighting capability, but not overnight or even in a few days. The Ukrainian army and state needs to survive for weeks or even months and feeding the cities will become a problem. Only if they can stand firm will the Russian attack abate and it is asking a lot. We are entering a point of maximum danger for the Ukrainians and the Russian high command will do to Kharkiv or Kyiv what they already did to Grozny and Aleppo. War crimes indictments will surely follow.

    This marks a comprehensive break between the West and the current form of Russia. These are not sanctions, they mark the utter shunning of Russia in every single sphere of contact. The reputation of Russia and the Russians has been totally trashed and, even if the war stops tomorrow, the change in perception will be lasting.

    Johnson is arriving in Tallinn later today, but I am not sure calling for Putin´s head is such a good move. Even those who also want him gone in the regime won´t want to be pushed around so obviously, so it is likely to be counter productive, even though it is now quite clear that VVP is not a man we can do (any) business with.

    Now the tide has gone out, at least we now know who picked the wrong side: Farage, Salmond, Trump, various Tories and many others. I said that the day of reckoning would be delayed until the crisis cools, but when that happens, the reckoning should be sure and complete.

    In the meantime, Happy St. David´s Day!

    War crime indictments didn’t follow after Grozny or Aleppo did they? I’m a bit skeptical that they would now, unless Ukrainians being ‘people like us’ makes a difference. The only way Putin will face justice is at the hands of Russians.
    A bit skeptical is putting it mildly.

    Regretfully I don't think people like Putin ever face justice. We can but hope that at least he can lose power though.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211
    mwadams said:

    HYUFD said:

    Astonishing pressure must be on Johnson at moment. One slip from him and Biden and we are in WWIII.

    For all that many of us loathe his character and his way of doing business we must put that all aside for time being and hope and pray he makes the right calls.

    Media starting to call for no-fly zone. Really, really terribly dangerous times.

    Plus Macron of course, he also has nuclear weapons.

    Johnson is effectively a bridge between Macron and Scholz, who will lead the EU military and economic responses to Putin with UDVL and Biden who will lead the US military and economic response.

    At the moment it is still largely economic and will be as long as Putin just sticks to Ukraine
    Why does Biden need a bridge - or rather, how does UKGov provide it? When we were in the EU, having a US-aligned partner with voting rights and policy influence was a huge benefit to the US. We're outside all that now, just like the US, so what do we bring to the party?
    We are also in NATO and still the only western nation in Europe other than France with nuclear weapons
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,748
    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    So much for "the EU arming Ukraine"

    UPDATE — Polish President Duda just said: "We are not going to send any [fighter] jets to the Ukrainian airspace" because "that would suggest an open military interference in the Ukrainian conflict." NATO is not a party to this conflict, Duda said.

    https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1498617907764412417

    They could always sell them to Ukraine....

    How many times does it need to be said NATO and the EU are simply not going to become directly involved in the defence of Ukraine.

    Any such assistance would need to come through Poland and that would mean possible if not likely targeting of Poland by Russia. That is not a game that anyone wants to play.
    I agree there appears that a lot of the nervousness seems to centre around the “what ifs” that are unlikely to come about.

    What if NATO forces directly intervene? What if there is a no fly zone?

    The simple fact remains that we see absolutely no indication from the US that it is even considering that option. It has on the other hand been very quick to say that is not on the table.

    I think that in the social media and Internet age we are quick to jump upon utterances from all and sundry about these decisions, but the fact remains that any decision to make such commitment is a NATO commitment, and without the US that will not happen.

    I would be more concerned of the danger of stray missiles etc than I would be about escalation via this route.
    Johnson is easily stupid and impulsive enough to think an NFZ is a good idea. Fortunately he'll be told to stay in his lane by Biden.
    In his live press conference just now in Warsaw he has just publicly rejected it in response to an understandably very passionate Ukrainian journalist's appeal for it, to save all the children being slaughtered by Putin
    I am very grateful that happened. He is, shall we say, not averse to promising things he can't deliver when put on the spot so I am glad that someone (Biden perhaps) was keeping him in check.
    For a period of months, now, the US and UK have been repeating that

    - They won't intervene militarily in the Ukraine
    - They will arm the Ukrainians
    - They will impose increasing sanctions on Russia as it escalates the situation in Ukraine.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,203
    HYUFD said:

    Astonishing pressure must be on Johnson at moment. One slip from him and Biden and we are in WWIII.

    For all that many of us loathe his character and his way of doing business we must put that all aside for time being and hope and pray he makes the right calls.

    Media starting to call for no-fly zone. Really, really terribly dangerous times.

    Plus Macron of course, he also has nuclear weapons.

    Johnson is effectively a bridge between Macron and Scholz, who will lead the EU military and economic responses to Putin with UDVL and Biden who will lead the US military and economic response.

    At the moment it is still largely economic and will be as long as Putin just sticks to Ukraine
    Why does the US need to talk to FR/DE via the UK? It's not like Biden doesn't have their phone numbers. We are in the mix in terms of discussions (I am not saying we are irrelevant by any means) but I don't see that we are needed as an intermediary in US/EU discussions, not since we left the EU.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,211

    HYUFD said:

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    Then the Communist world was supported by belief in an ideology supported by many globally. Mafia kleptocracy and might is right won't attract that level of support (outside the world of Trump and Fox). Also everything is accelerated in life now.

    Fairly confident Russia wont be in Kiev in 5 years time, and think it more likely than not, that they leave within a month or two.
    Optimistic.

    The main opposition party to Putin's United Russia party in the Russian Duma is indeed the Communist Party and combined the 2 got 69% of the vote in the Russian legislative elections last year.

    Events.....there have been some developments over the last week that will change lives drastically and negatively, support can only ebb away.
    A CNN poll in Russia also found 50 percent of Russian participants said they thought use of force would be justified to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, 25 percent said it would be wrong and the remainder said they were unsure.
    https://thehill.com/policy/international/russia/595523-twice-as-many-russians-in-new-poll-say-military-use-justified-to
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,041
    HYUFD said:

    A CNN poll finds 83% of US voters favour increased economic sanctions on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine, including 84% of Democrats and Republicans and 81% of Independents.

    However only 42% back military action against Russia by the US, with 58% opposed, even if sanctions fail. 60% of Independents and 56% of Democrats and Republicans oppose US military action in Ukraine
    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/28/politics/cnn-poll-russia-ukraine-us-aid/index.html

    Only 42%?
    I wouldn't express it like that.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,804

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Until this war started I was watching a lot of GB News because I agreed with their stance on the Woke stuff. Stopped watching now because I don't like their attitude on Putin and Russia.

    Somebody on Twitter this morning claims they are owned/funded by Gazprom
    Lots of rethinking going on at both ends of the spectrum. Finnish opinion polls suggest a complete reversal of attitudes to NATO from solid opposition to solid support. Swedish polls also moving that way. Here, the Morning Star is highlighting campaigners' claims of Russian use of illegal cluster munitions. Sabine Wageknecht, who leads the communist wing of Die Linke in Germany, has apologised for mistakenly thinking that Putin wouldn't invade and says she is rethinking her attitude towards Russia. And so on across the continent. A side-effect of all this may be a pretty broad consensus across Western Europe on the need for solid defence policies. Not quite what Putin had in mind, I imagine.
    UK Green Party policy is, I believe, to leave NATO.
    Point of information: there is no such thing as a UK Green Party. There are 3 parties: E&W, NI and S.
    And all three want to leave NATO....
    I think all members of the Green Party (ies) of the UK and Extinction Rebellion should be encouraged to go to Ukraine and wave flowers at the Russian convoy and sing "We will overcome". The really brave ones can glue themselves to the tarmac. In fact I might even offer to crowd fund the travel costs and the superglue!
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380
    HYUFD said:

    A CNN poll finds 83% of US voters favour increased economic sanctions on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine, including 84% of Democrats and Republicans and 81% of Independents.

    However only 42% back military action against Russia by the US, with 58% opposed, even if sanctions fail. 60% of Independents and 56% of Democrats and Republicans oppose US military action in Ukraine
    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/28/politics/cnn-poll-russia-ukraine-us-aid/index.html

    Interesting and unusual consensus in US politics. Is Trump's peculiar stance hurting him?
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,117

    Heathener said:

    TimS said:

    I’m also getting increasingly worried about the head of steam that seems to have built, especially in Europe (less so the US). People need to cool it.

    Speak softly and carry a big stick. Let Russia run out of cash, fuel and tanks, and the will to fight. It was working quite well. Stay on the moral high ground and try to get China on side.

    The ramping up of WW3 rhetoric might cause a rallying to the flag in Russia. Has happened several times in Iran in response to Western pressure.

    My brother is the same.

    But I think it's too late. The escalation is occurring. That's in large measure because Russian forces are not succeeding on the ground and the more they escalate the style of campaign the more our horror turns to indignation and then to action. Russian forces have gone from waltzing in as apparent liberators now to carpet bombing.

    Surely we have little choice? We cannot sit back and let this deranged lunatic annihilate a country just because he shouts at us not to get involved. Perhaps I'm wrong and we just sit on our hands and let him do it. Let him destroy an entire country. But he won't stop there.

    Europe has irrevocably altered.


    I don't think we have a choice but to face him down. He's not going to stop here. And it would embolden others (like China) if we didn't.

    The alternative is all of Eastern Europe falls and we're subject to permanent geopolitical blackmail across Europe and the World by authoritarian states.
    I said this a few days ago and was called a moron. Funny how the zeitgeist has shifted.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,015
    HYUFD said:

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    Then the Communist world was supported by belief in an ideology supported by many globally. Mafia kleptocracy and might is right won't attract that level of support (outside the world of Trump and Fox). Also everything is accelerated in life now.

    Fairly confident Russia wont be in Kiev in 5 years time, and think it more likely than not, that they leave within a month or two.
    Optimistic.

    The main opposition party to Putin's United Russia party in the Russian Duma is indeed the Communist Party and combined the 2 got 69% of the vote in the Russian legislative elections last year.

    Thankfully nothing much has happened since then, that might have made ordinary Russians change their minds…
  • Options

    Heathener said:

    TimS said:

    I’m also getting increasingly worried about the head of steam that seems to have built, especially in Europe (less so the US). People need to cool it.

    Speak softly and carry a big stick. Let Russia run out of cash, fuel and tanks, and the will to fight. It was working quite well. Stay on the moral high ground and try to get China on side.

    The ramping up of WW3 rhetoric might cause a rallying to the flag in Russia. Has happened several times in Iran in response to Western pressure.

    My brother is the same.

    But I think it's too late. The escalation is occurring. That's in large measure because Russian forces are not succeeding on the ground and the more they escalate the style of campaign the more our horror turns to indignation and then to action. Russian forces have gone from waltzing in as apparent liberators now to carpet bombing.

    Surely we have little choice? We cannot sit back and let this deranged lunatic annihilate a country just because he shouts at us not to get involved. Perhaps I'm wrong and we just sit on our hands and let him do it. Let him destroy an entire country. But he won't stop there.

    Europe has irrevocably altered.


    I don't think we have a choice but to face him down. He's not going to stop here. And it would embolden others (like China) if we didn't.

    The alternative is all of Eastern Europe falls and we're subject to permanent geopolitical blackmail across Europe and the World by authoritarian states.
    I said this a few days ago and was called a moron. Funny how the zeitgeist has shifted.
    Not for me or the majority of public opinion, if the latest polls are to believed, it hasn't.
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,156
    HYUFD said:

    mwadams said:

    HYUFD said:

    Astonishing pressure must be on Johnson at moment. One slip from him and Biden and we are in WWIII.

    For all that many of us loathe his character and his way of doing business we must put that all aside for time being and hope and pray he makes the right calls.

    Media starting to call for no-fly zone. Really, really terribly dangerous times.

    Plus Macron of course, he also has nuclear weapons.

    Johnson is effectively a bridge between Macron and Scholz, who will lead the EU military and economic responses to Putin with UDVL and Biden who will lead the US military and economic response.

    At the moment it is still largely economic and will be as long as Putin just sticks to Ukraine
    Why does Biden need a bridge - or rather, how does UKGov provide it? When we were in the EU, having a US-aligned partner with voting rights and policy influence was a huge benefit to the US. We're outside all that now, just like the US, so what do we bring to the party?
    We are also in NATO and still the only western nation in Europe other than France with nuclear weapons
    Yup - that's NATO. We're not global non-entities.

    But what do we do to "bridge" into the EU that the US can't do equally well itself now we don't have a seat at the EU table?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,556
    TimS said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I don't agree. The West has launched a series of extremely strong economic and financial sanctions on Russia, which will take days or weeks to take full effect. Meanwhile Ukraine is fighting a very clever war of physical attrition, particularly on logistics and fuel supplies, and is winning the cyber and propaganda war hands down.

    These take time to take effect. Any escalation now needs to be considered carefully, and calculated to deliver the most impact for least loss of hearts and minds and moral high ground and least risk of Russian military escalation.

    Best case strategy seems to be to allow Russian troops and public lose heart and give up.

    The Taliban didn't keep escalating in Afghanistan until the US were defeated. They kept nibbling away, relentlessly, for 20 years until the US left of their own accord, and then strolled in unopposed and took control. The West needs to Be More Taliban.
    The problem with that strategy is that it's a sentence of years of creating rubble and dead civilians in Ukraine.

    If we fail to provide sufficient support to ensure the survival of Zelenskyy and the central government in Kyiv then Ukraine may never recover from the damage inflicted by the war.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,893
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Dominic Cummings
    @Dominic2306
    ·
    1h
    A No Fly Zone enforced by NATO is an act of war that could *easily start A NUCLEAR WAR*.
    It is INSANE & coming from many of the same people who gave us Iraq/Afghan disasters.
    People who suggest it/similar shd be nowhere near power.
    Make your voice heard today

    This is an example of the phenomenon I was warning about earlier. There is a vast amount of momentum in support of Ukraine. However, it is taking the form of a campaign that seeks to force governments in to doing things that escalate the conflict, and do not resolve it.
    The only way to resolve the conflict is to escalate it until Russia is defeated.

    The only alternative is appeasement and let Russia take whatever they want.

    Some idealised version of "de-escalation" is off there in the land of unicorns and rainbows along with unilateral nuclear disarmament, which Ukraine of course did.
    I am absolutely in agreement with the "fight now" school of thought, in relation to Putin. However, tactics come in to play. Putin is saying that we started the war, and also that we are the aggressor. This is absurd. But every wild, unfiltered, statement by a western politician on twitter feeds this narrative, until it starts to look to an outsider like Russia have a point, and the west really do want to annihilate Russia. Then we lose the high ground, are in to a 'two sides' problem.

    Tactically it is far better to isolate and starve the bear, than fight it whilst it thinks it is winning. It is a long game and won't be over in a week.
    He won't be defeated militarily. We aren't going to go and occupy St Petersburg and Moscow and Vladivostok.

    So he has to be contained militarily at the lowest possible cost to us, and maximum possible cost to him, while he is defeated economically and socially.

    That was the whole Cold War strategy (which took ~40 years).
    Then the Communist world was supported by belief in an ideology supported by many globally. Mafia kleptocracy and might is right won't attract that level of support (outside the world of Trump and Fox). Also everything is accelerated in life now.

    Fairly confident Russia wont be in Kiev in 5 years time, and think it more likely than not, that they leave within a month or two.
    Optimistic.

    The main opposition party to Putin's United Russia party in the Russian Duma is indeed the Communist Party and combined the 2 got 69% of the vote in the Russian legislative elections last year.

    Events.....there have been some developments over the last week that will change lives drastically and negatively, support can only ebb away.
    A CNN poll in Russia also found 50 percent of Russian participants said they thought use of force would be justified to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, 25 percent said it would be wrong and the remainder said they were unsure.
    https://thehill.com/policy/international/russia/595523-twice-as-many-russians-in-new-poll-say-military-use-justified-to
    And how aware were they of the West and global response? Economic disaster, currency collapse, no flights to the Europe, no international sport, etc?

    Not at all is the answer. Their views will inevitably change as these events play out.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Until this war started I was watching a lot of GB News because I agreed with their stance on the Woke stuff. Stopped watching now because I don't like their attitude on Putin and Russia.

    Somebody on Twitter this morning claims they are owned/funded by Gazprom
    Lots of rethinking going on at both ends of the spectrum. Finnish opinion polls suggest a complete reversal of attitudes to NATO from solid opposition to solid support. Swedish polls also moving that way. Here, the Morning Star is highlighting campaigners' claims of Russian use of illegal cluster munitions. Sabine Wageknecht, who leads the communist wing of Die Linke in Germany, has apologised for mistakenly thinking that Putin wouldn't invade and says she is rethinking her attitude towards Russia. And so on across the continent. A side-effect of all this may be a pretty broad consensus across Western Europe on the need for solid defence policies. Not quite what Putin had in mind, I imagine.
    UK Green Party policy is, I believe, to leave NATO.
    We've been proven right about everything else...
    Sure you have, Dura, sure you have.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,071
    https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1498621080721932289

    Mujtaba (Mij) Rahman@Mij_EuropeSenior EU officials tell me the EU is considering offering qualified Russian 🇷🇺 citizens EU 🇪🇺 passports - to accelerate Russian economic brain drain

    This is just one of many innovative measures being considered to complement economic sanctions now in place 🇪🇺🇺🇦
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    BREAKING:

    Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has just said that it is unacceptable for Russia that the US has nuclear weapons in Europe.


    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1498610625861373955

    Yes, that's why an invasion was necessary, for something that has been the case for decades.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    MrEd said:


    Shaun Walker
    @shaunwalker7
    ·
    1h
    Putin’s long-standing goals:

    - Economic prosperity, or at least stability, to compare with the chaotic 1990s
    - Have a ukraine friendly or at least neutral to Moscow
    - Create divides in the West to undermine any sanctions or other hostile policies

    All up in smoke in six days.

    If I were China, I might be tempted to move my armed forces up to the Russian border.

    It would cause Putin a big headache, because he can't keep all his troops tied up in Ukraine. China gets to be seen to be a good guy by us in working to protect its European markets (and not insignificant investments in Ukraine).

    And who knows, whilst everyone thinks they are after Taiwan, a blitzkrieg of their own could steal all of Russia's hydrocarbons east of the Urals....
    Long-term, I am sure they would love to do that (and a lot of other valuable minerals there as well).

    Too much threat of nuclear war though. Vlad would almost certainly use nukes, if not strategic, at least tactical.
    Xi is a Greater China Nationalist - he wants all the territory that the Chinese Empire ruled. I doubt he is interested in world conquest.
    Hegemony is easier to handle.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,545

    HYUFD said:

    A CNN poll finds 83% of US voters favour increased economic sanctions on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine, including 84% of Democrats and Republicans and 81% of Independents.

    However only 42% back military action against Russia by the US, with 58% opposed, even if sanctions fail. 60% of Independents and 56% of Democrats and Republicans oppose US military action in Ukraine
    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/28/politics/cnn-poll-russia-ukraine-us-aid/index.html

    Interesting and unusual consensus in US politics. Is Trump's peculiar stance hurting him?
    I don't think Trump's views were ever really that close to those of the American everyman. He won because nor were Hilary Clinton's.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited March 2022
    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1498621080721932289

    Mujtaba (Mij) Rahman@Mij_EuropeSenior EU officials tell me the EU is considering offering qualified Russian 🇷🇺 citizens EU 🇪🇺 passports - to accelerate Russian economic brain drain

    This is just one of many innovative measures being considered to complement economic sanctions now in place 🇪🇺🇺🇦

    Interesting again, because that could also be a more conciliatory signal to elements of the regime, not just general propaganda for the population at large. The Putin oligarchy has a lot of highly qualified people.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,117
    I wish Russia would hurry up with this nuclear war, I could do with some rest.
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