I will be honest with you this will break our manifesto commitment, but covid was not in that either
Good line
Good to see you're swinging back into line, Big G.
Well its OK for him, he no longer has to pay NI.
I have paid my taxes all my life and will pay care costs as well, until and unless the law in Wales changes
These changes do not come in until October 2023 either
Except you've not paid taxes all your life to be frank. Not the same as everyone else.
To be completely frank as your generation has gotten older the rate of income tax (which applies to all) has gone down, while the rate of national insurance (which does not) has gone up.
All that has done is exempt you and people like you from paying your fair share of taxes. If NI goes back down, and Income Tax goes up then working people's taxes wouldn't change - but yours would.
And I am to blame for government policies over decades
I have paid all the taxes required by HMG
That just means you're not a criminal but paying all your taxes required by HMG is not the same as paying your fair share in taxes.
Especially when so many in your generation to be brutally honest have been voting for and are saying in polls etc they're very happy to see tax rises in NI (knowing full well they won't pay it) while opposing tax rises like Income Tax etc that would be applicable to their pensions etc
National Insurance really should be abolished and merged with Income Tax. There is no excuse to be raiding considerably more tax from some people's incomes than others with the exact same income.
Can you show me any post that I object to income tax rises in these circumstances
You resentment is unfortunate and it does sadden me that you are making this rather personal
I will be honest with you this will break our manifesto commitment, but covid was not in that either
Good line
Good to see you're swinging back into line, Big G.
Well its OK for him, he no longer has to pay NI.
I have paid my taxes all my life and will pay care costs as well, until and unless the law in Wales changes
These changes do not come in until October 2023 either
Except you've not paid taxes all your life to be frank. Not the same as everyone else.
To be completely frank as your generation has gotten older the rate of income tax (which applies to all) has gone down, while the rate of national insurance (which does not) has gone up.
All that has done is exempt you and people like you from paying your fair share of taxes. If NI goes back down, and Income Tax goes up then working people's taxes wouldn't change - but yours would.
Maggie thatcher said there are only two taxes, corporation and income. It was a damned lie, as under her and major, as those two taxes dropped, a billion stealth taxes went up. These hit BG where it hurts in his housekeeping jug. Given as a present in income tax cut, stealthy hand into housekeeping jug to take it out again.
You are way to savvy to know there isn’t just income tax, corporation, tax Phil, nor even just adding VAT and NI going up as Maggie and Major made their promises.
If today’s announcement so brave and brazen on triple lock and Ni, what are coming budgets going to be like on stealth taxes.
We seem to be going in the direction of a Scandinavian style democracy to me: social democracy, mildly socially conservative, community-focussed, sceptical of migration, and relatively isolationist.
I will be honest with you this will break our manifesto commitment, but covid was not in that either
Good line
Good to see you're swinging back into line, Big G.
To be honest Boris was as good today as I have heard him for a very long time
Today may well be a game changer but it does not stop me wanting Rishi to be PM
He may be chipper because if today's announcement does go to hell in a handcart, it is Sunak that has been thrown under the bus.
Remember too, the "pasty tax budget" was a rip-roaring success until voters realised what it meant.
The understanding of voters going forward is dominated by Boris has solved crisis and unfairness in social care and saved the NHS from Covid bankruptcy. The voters want that.
They will also remember Labour had a clear policy too, they stood up and opposed what Boris is doing. Labours position is to betray working people, who have worked hard all their lives and are now pensioners. Is it any wonder this key voting group had wised up and stopped voting Labour?
As far as I can see, beneath all the froth, it's a case of kicking the can down the road. We're going to spend more money on the NHS, but on hardware, not staff salaries. Indeed some NHS staff, at the lower end, could be worse off. The house sale business hasn't changed anything in principle, and, to be fair, there's a case for not doing so. All that's happened is that the goalposts have been moved. The big question, when it actually gets close up and personal, is what is health care and what is social care. And there's been, and I stand to be corrected, no re-definition there.
A typical 25-year-old will pay an extra £12,600 over their working lives from today's tax rise (and that's just the employee part of it). A retired pensioner (unless they have lots of shares) will pay precisely nothing https://twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/1435267675115167746
This is brave. Hopefully not just in the Yes MInister sense. Bold and brave addressing a long standing problem that others have ducked. I feel better about supporting this government today than I have for a while.
Yes, you'd be quite happy with minimum wage workers having more of their pay docked to subsidise the care of millionaire pensioners.
I am assuming that you don't read my posts (and why should you). My concern here was that this was being imposed upon those working and below retirement age. That is not the case. I was concerned that political advantage might leave the triple lock in place. That has not happened. It is not the case that the wealthy will not pay for social care, they will pay up to £86k each for their care.
This package provides serious sums to the NHS for clearing the backlog. Whether it will be sufficient to fully fund social care going forward remains to be seen but it is the biggest step forward we have ever seen.
It is the case. If someone has a pension of £30k per annum then they're not paying this tax. If someone has a £30k per annum salary they are.
This is a tax on jobs, a tax on working. It is not a broad, applicable to all tax.
Whilst that is true Rishi let slip the reason that they were using NI. It is because the UK government no longer determines the rate of IT in Scotland but does determine the rate of NI. It remains an integrated UK wide tax. Another frankly insane consequence of our truly mad devolution settlement. In taxing shares and those of retirement age who are still working some of the deficiencies of using NI as opposed to IT have been addressed at the cost of more complexity and bureaucracy. I really wish the UK Chancellor could simply have put this on IT but he couldn't.
I will be honest with you this will break our manifesto commitment, but covid was not in that either
Good line
Good to see you're swinging back into line, Big G.
Well its OK for him, he no longer has to pay NI.
I have paid my taxes all my life and will pay care costs as well, until and unless the law in Wales changes
These changes do not come in until October 2023 either
Except you've not paid taxes all your life to be frank. Not the same as everyone else.
To be completely frank as your generation has gotten older the rate of income tax (which applies to all) has gone down, while the rate of national insurance (which does not) has gone up.
All that has done is exempt you and people like you from paying your fair share of taxes. If NI goes back down, and Income Tax goes up then working people's taxes wouldn't change - but yours would.
And I am to blame for government policies over decades
I have paid all the taxes required by HMG
That just means you're not a criminal but paying all your taxes required by HMG is not the same as paying your fair share in taxes.
Especially when so many in your generation to be brutally honest have been voting for and are saying in polls etc they're very happy to see tax rises in NI (knowing full well they won't pay it) while opposing tax rises like Income Tax etc that would be applicable to their pensions etc
National Insurance really should be abolished and merged with Income Tax. There is no excuse to be raiding considerably more tax from some people's incomes than others with the exact same income.
Can you show me any post that I object to income tax rises in these circumstances
You resentment is unfortunate and it does sadden me that you are making this rather personal
I only objected as you used your "I have paid my taxes all my life" line.
I'm sorry its not true. You're not paying National Insurance so you're not paying it all your life. And when you were of working age then NI wasn't so high.
Its only when Boomers got old that suddenly moving tax onto NI instead of Income Tax became a great idea. Its despicable - and I'd appreciate it if you didn't claim to be paying taxes all your life and recognised that you're not paying the same tax rates as others are.
I will be honest with you this will break our manifesto commitment, but covid was not in that either
Good line
Good to see you're swinging back into line, Big G.
To be honest Boris was as good today as I have heard him for a very long time
Today may well be a game changer but it does not stop me wanting Rishi to be PM
He may be chipper because if today's announcement does go to hell in a handcart, it is Sunak that has been thrown under the bus.
Remember too, the "pasty tax budget" was a rip-roaring success until voters realised what it meant.
The understanding of voters going forward is dominated by Boris has solved crisis and unfairness in social care and saved the NHS from Covid bankruptcy. The voters want that.
They will also remember Labour had a clear policy too, they stood up and opposed what Boris is doing. Labours position is to betray working people, who have worked hard all their lives and are now pensioners. Is it any wonder this key voting group had wised up and stopped voting Labour?
"Boris's" crisis solving credentials rarely deliver what they promise. "I have an oven-ready deal" for starters.
It was oven ready! It just took a year to D Frost.
And I wasn't implying anyone who votes Tory is scum either, it's one of my most hated aspects of Labour politics these days. Let's have sensible debates, not call each other scum.
I vote labour, consider myself labour although am a Starmersceptic, but I really hate that side of online labour politics. Especially on twitter and Facebook. I don’t see it too much in Lib Dem or Tory support but certainly,diehard brexiteer/BXP support is the same.
I also hate the voter blaming. Getting annoyed at red wall voters for,daring to vote Tory. Don’t blame them, figure out why labour had, and still has, little to offer these communities.
The splits by age are one of the most depressing aspects of the whole thing.
I am not surprised at all but the truth of the matter is the people that don't vote, get shafted. You can basically break this down by the population voting Labour or not.
I wonder though as Max said, whether this increases the Tory voting age, 25-49 year olds also oppose by 53%, so that would put the Tory voting age into the mid 50s
The splits by age are one of the most depressing aspects of the whole thing.
I am not surprised at all but the truth of the matter is the people that don't vote, get shafted. You can basically break this down by the population voting Labour or not.
I wonder though as Max said, whether this increases the Tory voting age, 25-49 year olds also oppose by 53%, so that would put the Tory voting age into the mid 50s
Which is what it was in 2017 and why we nearly ended up with a Prime Minister Corbyn.
So as we thought, those working hate this and those who don't, love it.
A class politics BoJo - now the young should come and vote this lot out
Fortunately only the old vote... but what if that changed?
I'm not sure Starmer is the man to do it himself - but I do wonder if this is why I am told by a friend of the family that he's keeping tuition fees under a lock and key as something to be scrapped.
It’s obviously humiliating for the cllr, but has he actually crossed a line? What do PB’ers think? Just a bit scummy - or - totally way over the line creepy, get the pitchforks out?
The splits by age are one of the most depressing aspects of the whole thing.
I am not surprised at all but the truth of the matter is the people that don't vote, get shafted. You can basically break this down by the population voting Labour or not.
I wonder though as Max said, whether this increases the Tory voting age, 25-49 year olds also oppose by 53%, so that would put the Tory voting age into the mid 50s
Which is what it was in 2017 and why we nearly ended up with a Prime Minister Corbyn.
The splits by age are one of the most depressing aspects of the whole thing.
I am not surprised at all but the truth of the matter is the people that don't vote, get shafted. You can basically break this down by the population voting Labour or not.
I wonder though as Max said, whether this increases the Tory voting age, 25-49 year olds also oppose by 53%, so that would put the Tory voting age into the mid 50s
Which is what it was in 2017 and why we nearly ended up with a Prime Minister Corbyn.
It’s obviously humiliating for the cllr, but has he actually crossed a line? What do PB’ers think? Just a bit scummy - or - totally way over the line creepy, get the pitchforks out?
Hmm, I wonder if there's a reason Labour are going on about broken promises then.
Still think tax wealth not workers would have been a better line to go on but I can no longer say conclusively they aren't following the polling
"Broken promises" are bad... but I think it's pretty much factored in that politicians and governments break their promises... Doesn't make it right but most people expect it.
It also depends a lot of who's breaking those promises. Top tier politicians (Blair, Thatch, Boris etc) can get away with it. Second division politicians (Major, Brown, May) can't...
And finally context is important. War, natural disasters, pandemic viruses etc... do change the equation to some degree.
So as we thought, those working hate this and those who don't, love it.
A class politics BoJo - now the young should come and vote this lot out
Fortunately only the old vote... but what if that changed?
I'm not sure Starmer is the man to do it himself - but I do wonder if this is why I am told by a friend of the family that he's keeping tuition fees under a lock and key as something to be scrapped.
2. Social justice Abolish Universal Credit and end the Tories’ cruel sanctions regime. Set a national goal for wellbeing to make health as important as GDP; Invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach. Stand up for universal services and defend our NHS. Support the abolition of tuition fees and invest in lifelong learning.
Of course the £6 billion a year question is, would he write off existing debt?
What's always been odd to me is the way people bang on about the NHS as being some amazing service that isn't replicated anywhere in the world. I've lived overseas and my experience in Switzerland was far, far better than anything I've had here with the NHS. It has become completely impervious to criticism and therefore impossible to reform, all it is now is a money black hole which will continue to take a greater and greater share of national income while providing lesser and lesser service for the substantial grants it receives.
All over Europe healthcare is universally available and everywhere I've been has been hugely better than the NHS and the people are significantly healthier because there doesn't exist and attitude of "well who cares if I get sick, the NHS will fix it for me". I see a lot less of that from my European friends as compared to the general British attitude towards their own health.
If you want to spend Swiss levels og public money on healthcare then go for it.
The thing that makes the NHS so amazing is how incredibly cheap it is.
To get to swiss levels you are proposing a 20% increase to the NHS budget.
12% of GDP in Switzerland vs a proposed 12% here by the end of next year. I know which system I'd rather have.
I’m in Switzerland right now. I went to beautiful Bellinzona today.
It’s a lovely little city, exquisitely preserved. Everyone sits around the sunny piazzas eating pizza and gelati under the castle walls
Despite this diet I was struck by the paucity of fat people. There aren’t any. Well, there must be, but nothing like the obesity you see in Britain (let alone the USA)
They also walk and bike everywhere and live til they’re about 98.
In many ways the problem with British healthcare is not British healthcare but the British way of life. We are too fat and lazy. Simple as.
Solve that and much of the pressure on the NHS would disappear and it would be one of the best value health systems in the world
Yes, and while comparing countries' health outcomes from covid is a minefield, I would argue that if the British have had worse health outcomes than elsewhere, the majority of this can be explained by our high proportion of fatties. See also: Belgium, Russia and the Czech Republic.
Is fatness an inherent feature of Britain (and its population density and weather and/or legacy of heavy industry - see also: Belgium) or is it the results of inputs which can be changed? Regrettably my instinct is the former.
A complex mixture I’d say. Which makes it hard but not impossible to solve.
Also worth noting that even in slender Switzerland obesity has doubled, in some age groups, in 20 years. It’s a global problem
On the upside we are, I read, quite close to major new drugs which will help tackle this.
Some banging class As kept me lean through my 20s, is that what's on offer? Bit old now like, but if I have to I'll take one for the team and get back down the nightclub.
It's running and dog walking that keep me lean now. Not as much fun but I sleep much better.
I will be honest with you this will break our manifesto commitment, but covid was not in that either
Good line
Good to see you're swinging back into line, Big G.
To be honest Boris was as good today as I have heard him for a very long time
Today may well be a game changer but it does not stop me wanting Rishi to be PM
He may be chipper because if today's announcement does go to hell in a handcart, it is Sunak that has been thrown under the bus.
Remember too, the "pasty tax budget" was a rip-roaring success until voters realised what it meant.
The understanding of voters going forward is dominated by Boris has solved crisis and unfairness in social care and saved the NHS from Covid bankruptcy. The voters want that.
They will also remember Labour had a clear policy too, they stood up and opposed what Boris is doing. Labours position is to betray working people, who have worked hard all their lives and are now pensioners. Is it any wonder this key voting group had wised up and stopped voting Labour?
As far as I can see, beneath all the froth, it's a case of kicking the can down the road. We're going to spend more money on the NHS, but on hardware, not staff salaries. Indeed some NHS staff, at the lower end, could be worse off. The house sale business hasn't changed anything in principle, and, to be fair, there's a case for not doing so. All that's happened is that the goalposts have been moved. The big question, when it actually gets close up and personal, is what is health care and what is social care. And there's been, and I stand to be corrected, no re-definition there.
I’m not saying what you are saying is anything other than honest, intelligent and succinct as possible.
Only it doesn’t fit on a bill board or front of the Sun, does it.
The splits by age are one of the most depressing aspects of the whole thing.
I am not surprised at all but the truth of the matter is the people that don't vote, get shafted. You can basically break this down by the population voting Labour or not.
I wonder though as Max said, whether this increases the Tory voting age, 25-49 year olds also oppose by 53%, so that would put the Tory voting age into the mid 50s
Which is what it was in 2017 and why we nearly ended up with a Prime Minister Corbyn.
Then mid 50s would seem to imply the Tory majority has a higher chance of falling away, then.
Obviously the higher the crossover, the fewer young people Starmer needs to get to vote - but those people crossing over need to actually vote, not stay at home.
I will be honest with you this will break our manifesto commitment, but covid was not in that either
Good line
Good to see you're swinging back into line, Big G.
Well its OK for him, he no longer has to pay NI.
I have paid my taxes all my life and will pay care costs as well, until and unless the law in Wales changes
These changes do not come in until October 2023 either
Except you've not paid taxes all your life to be frank. Not the same as everyone else.
To be completely frank as your generation has gotten older the rate of income tax (which applies to all) has gone down, while the rate of national insurance (which does not) has gone up.
All that has done is exempt you and people like you from paying your fair share of taxes. If NI goes back down, and Income Tax goes up then working people's taxes wouldn't change - but yours would.
And I am to blame for government policies over decades
I have paid all the taxes required by HMG
That just means you're not a criminal but paying all your taxes required by HMG is not the same as paying your fair share in taxes.
Especially when so many in your generation to be brutally honest have been voting for and are saying in polls etc they're very happy to see tax rises in NI (knowing full well they won't pay it) while opposing tax rises like Income Tax etc that would be applicable to their pensions etc
National Insurance really should be abolished and merged with Income Tax. There is no excuse to be raiding considerably more tax from some people's incomes than others with the exact same income.
Can you show me any post that I object to income tax rises in these circumstances
You resentment is unfortunate and it does sadden me that you are making this rather personal
I only objected as you used your "I have paid my taxes all my life" line.
I'm sorry its not true. You're not paying National Insurance so you're not paying it all your life. And when you were of working age then NI wasn't so high.
Its only when Boomers got old that suddenly moving tax onto NI instead of Income Tax became a great idea. Its despicable - and I'd appreciate it if you didn't claim to be paying taxes all your life and recognised that you're not paying the same tax rates as others are.
You do realise that on retirement I had a substantial drop in my income and the state pension is insufficient
It is not as if I was earning the income I was when I was working
What's always been odd to me is the way people bang on about the NHS as being some amazing service that isn't replicated anywhere in the world. I've lived overseas and my experience in Switzerland was far, far better than anything I've had here with the NHS. It has become completely impervious to criticism and therefore impossible to reform, all it is now is a money black hole which will continue to take a greater and greater share of national income while providing lesser and lesser service for the substantial grants it receives.
All over Europe healthcare is universally available and everywhere I've been has been hugely better than the NHS and the people are significantly healthier because there doesn't exist and attitude of "well who cares if I get sick, the NHS will fix it for me". I see a lot less of that from my European friends as compared to the general British attitude towards their own health.
If you want to spend Swiss levels og public money on healthcare then go for it.
The thing that makes the NHS so amazing is how incredibly cheap it is.
To get to swiss levels you are proposing a 20% increase to the NHS budget.
12% of GDP in Switzerland vs a proposed 12% here by the end of next year. I know which system I'd rather have.
I’m in Switzerland right now. I went to beautiful Bellinzona today.
It’s a lovely little city, exquisitely preserved. Everyone sits around the sunny piazzas eating pizza and gelati under the castle walls
Despite this diet I was struck by the paucity of fat people. There aren’t any. Well, there must be, but nothing like the obesity you see in Britain (let alone the USA)
They also walk and bike everywhere and live til they’re about 98.
In many ways the problem with British healthcare is not British healthcare but the British way of life. We are too fat and lazy. Simple as.
Solve that and much of the pressure on the NHS would disappear and it would be one of the best value health systems in the world
Yes, and while comparing countries' health outcomes from covid is a minefield, I would argue that if the British have had worse health outcomes than elsewhere, the majority of this can be explained by our high proportion of fatties. See also: Belgium, Russia and the Czech Republic.
Is fatness an inherent feature of Britain (and its population density and weather and/or legacy of heavy industry - see also: Belgium) or is it the results of inputs which can be changed? Regrettably my instinct is the former.
A complex mixture I’d say. Which makes it hard but not impossible to solve.
Also worth noting that even in slender Switzerland obesity has doubled, in some age groups, in 20 years. It’s a global problem
On the upside we are, I read, quite close to major new drugs which will help tackle this.
There will be a mix of logistical and climatic reasons, but culture plays a key part - outdoor exercise has a more central cultural role - in Germany and Switzerland focused on Wandern and in France and Italy more on road cycling - than we have.
One thing you don’t see so many of is gyms.
And to give him his due, Boris more or less gets the key thing. Building more exercise into daily life (walking, cycling to the shops, that sort of thing) is much more useful than other forms of physical activity. Little and often, no need for special facilities, using time you would have been passively travelling.
The trouble is that nobody is following his lead on that one.
I will be honest with you this will break our manifesto commitment, but covid was not in that either
Good line
Good to see you're swinging back into line, Big G.
Well its OK for him, he no longer has to pay NI.
I have paid my taxes all my life and will pay care costs as well, until and unless the law in Wales changes
These changes do not come in until October 2023 either
Except you've not paid taxes all your life to be frank. Not the same as everyone else.
To be completely frank as your generation has gotten older the rate of income tax (which applies to all) has gone down, while the rate of national insurance (which does not) has gone up.
All that has done is exempt you and people like you from paying your fair share of taxes. If NI goes back down, and Income Tax goes up then working people's taxes wouldn't change - but yours would.
And I am to blame for government policies over decades
I have paid all the taxes required by HMG
That just means you're not a criminal but paying all your taxes required by HMG is not the same as paying your fair share in taxes.
Especially when so many in your generation to be brutally honest have been voting for and are saying in polls etc they're very happy to see tax rises in NI (knowing full well they won't pay it) while opposing tax rises like Income Tax etc that would be applicable to their pensions etc
National Insurance really should be abolished and merged with Income Tax. There is no excuse to be raiding considerably more tax from some people's incomes than others with the exact same income.
Can you show me any post that I object to income tax rises in these circumstances
You resentment is unfortunate and it does sadden me that you are making this rather personal
I only objected as you used your "I have paid my taxes all my life" line.
I'm sorry its not true. You're not paying National Insurance so you're not paying it all your life. And when you were of working age then NI wasn't so high.
Its only when Boomers got old that suddenly moving tax onto NI instead of Income Tax became a great idea. Its despicable - and I'd appreciate it if you didn't claim to be paying taxes all your life and recognised that you're not paying the same tax rates as others are.
You do realise that on retirement I had a substantial drop in my income and the state pension is insufficient
It is not as if I was earning the income I was when I was working
And if taxation is equally applicable to all then your taxation would have fallen in line with it.
Your costs should have come down too as you wouldn't be commuting in to work etc too.
So why do you need and deserve a lower tax rate than someone who is commuting in to work for the same gross income as you have?
This is brave. Hopefully not just in the Yes MInister sense. Bold and brave addressing a long standing problem that others have ducked. I feel better about supporting this government today than I have for a while.
Yes, you'd be quite happy with minimum wage workers having more of their pay docked to subsidise the care of millionaire pensioners.
I am assuming that you don't read my posts (and why should you). My concern here was that this was being imposed upon those working and below retirement age. That is not the case. I was concerned that political advantage might leave the triple lock in place. That has not happened. It is not the case that the wealthy will not pay for social care, they will pay up to £86k each for their care.
This package provides serious sums to the NHS for clearing the backlog. Whether it will be sufficient to fully fund social care going forward remains to be seen but it is the biggest step forward we have ever seen.
It is the case. If someone has a pension of £30k per annum then they're not paying this tax. If someone has a £30k per annum salary they are.
This is a tax on jobs, a tax on working. It is not a broad, applicable to all tax.
Whilst that is true Rishi let slip the reason that they were using NI. It is because the UK government no longer determines the rate of IT in Scotland but does determine the rate of NI. It remains an integrated UK wide tax. Another frankly insane consequence of our truly mad devolution settlement. In taxing shares and those of retirement age who are still working some of the deficiencies of using NI as opposed to IT have been addressed at the cost of more complexity and bureaucracy. I really wish the UK Chancellor could simply have put this on IT but he couldn't.
It's frustrating.
I must be dim but I can't see what the problem is - at least in the old days the UKG just set IT and the SG could adjust one percentage point up or down. Though the greater complications of the Conservatives' Scotland Act may be the issue I presume?
So as we thought, those working hate this and those who don't, love it.
A class politics BoJo - now the young should come and vote this lot out
Fortunately only the old vote... but what if that changed?
I'm not sure Starmer is the man to do it himself - but I do wonder if this is why I am told by a friend of the family that he's keeping tuition fees under a lock and key as something to be scrapped.
2. Social justice Abolish Universal Credit and end the Tories’ cruel sanctions regime. Set a national goal for wellbeing to make health as important as GDP; Invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach. Stand up for universal services and defend our NHS. Support the abolition of tuition fees and invest in lifelong learning.
Of course the £6 billion a year question is, would he write off existing debt?
Abolishing Universal Credit should save him about £50bn a year, will it not?
Given how much of council tax is spent on supporting the elderly, a wise council should do all they can to get as many young people into the borough as possible, and to persuade as many oldies to leave.
It would therefore seem that you want to loosen up rules on bars and nightclubs, and high rise apartments, and oppose any measures that would be in any way convenient for the elderly. So, for example, those McCarthy & Stone sheltered accomodation places should be blocked if at all possible.
You might even want to see about introducing a scheme where you pay lost "stamp duty" to any oldie trading down and leaving the council area.
We seem to be going in the direction of a Scandinavian style democracy to me: social democracy, mildly socially conservative, community-focussed, sceptical of migration, and relatively isolationist.
Maybe that's what people want.
Unfortunately, they are only tolerant towards those who conform to societal norms. I don't want that. I want rebels, cricket statisticians, real ale festivals, Banksies, ravers, Goths, performance artists, public inebriation pansexuals, revolutionaries, spliff rollers, doggers, steam train enthusiasts, eccentrics of all kinds, as well. That's what makes Britain great.
A typical 25-year-old will pay an extra £12,600 over their working lives from today's tax rise (and that's just the employee part of it). A retired pensioner (unless they have lots of shares) will pay precisely nothing https://twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/1435267675115167746
A retired pensioner will also be dead before the young 25-year old has finished paying that extra £12,600.
I'm too busy celebrating Big John O's -by the way, I'm vertically challenged Tiny John O - conversion to the Blue Team and watching his Labour MP's majority of just 1451 evaporate at the next election.
I will be honest with you this will break our manifesto commitment, but covid was not in that either
Good line
Good to see you're swinging back into line, Big G.
Well its OK for him, he no longer has to pay NI.
I have paid my taxes all my life and will pay care costs as well, until and unless the law in Wales changes
These changes do not come in until October 2023 either
Except you've not paid taxes all your life to be frank. Not the same as everyone else.
To be completely frank as your generation has gotten older the rate of income tax (which applies to all) has gone down, while the rate of national insurance (which does not) has gone up.
All that has done is exempt you and people like you from paying your fair share of taxes. If NI goes back down, and Income Tax goes up then working people's taxes wouldn't change - but yours would.
And I am to blame for government policies over decades
I have paid all the taxes required by HMG
That just means you're not a criminal but paying all your taxes required by HMG is not the same as paying your fair share in taxes.
Especially when so many in your generation to be brutally honest have been voting for and are saying in polls etc they're very happy to see tax rises in NI (knowing full well they won't pay it) while opposing tax rises like Income Tax etc that would be applicable to their pensions etc
National Insurance really should be abolished and merged with Income Tax. There is no excuse to be raiding considerably more tax from some people's incomes than others with the exact same income.
Can you show me any post that I object to income tax rises in these circumstances
You resentment is unfortunate and it does sadden me that you are making this rather personal
I only objected as you used your "I have paid my taxes all my life" line.
I'm sorry its not true. You're not paying National Insurance so you're not paying it all your life. And when you were of working age then NI wasn't so high.
Its only when Boomers got old that suddenly moving tax onto NI instead of Income Tax became a great idea. Its despicable - and I'd appreciate it if you didn't claim to be paying taxes all your life and recognised that you're not paying the same tax rates as others are.
You do realise that on retirement I had a substantial drop in my income and the state pension is insufficient
It is not as if I was earning the income I was when I was working
And if taxation is equally applicable to all then your taxation would have fallen in line with it.
Your costs should have come down too as you wouldn't be commuting in to work etc too.
So why do you need and deserve a lower tax rate than someone who is commuting in to work for the same gross income as you have?
Commuting to work was not an issue in my working days as my business was nearby
You need to review your political priorities and find a party who backs your desire re tax
I have nothing further to add as I do not want to fallout with you
I will be honest with you this will break our manifesto commitment, but covid was not in that either
Good line
Good to see you're swinging back into line, Big G.
Well its OK for him, he no longer has to pay NI.
I have paid my taxes all my life and will pay care costs as well, until and unless the law in Wales changes
These changes do not come in until October 2023 either
Except you've not paid taxes all your life to be frank. Not the same as everyone else.
To be completely frank as your generation has gotten older the rate of income tax (which applies to all) has gone down, while the rate of national insurance (which does not) has gone up.
All that has done is exempt you and people like you from paying your fair share of taxes. If NI goes back down, and Income Tax goes up then working people's taxes wouldn't change - but yours would.
And I am to blame for government policies over decades
I have paid all the taxes required by HMG
That just means you're not a criminal but paying all your taxes required by HMG is not the same as paying your fair share in taxes.
Especially when so many in your generation to be brutally honest have been voting for and are saying in polls etc they're very happy to see tax rises in NI (knowing full well they won't pay it) while opposing tax rises like Income Tax etc that would be applicable to their pensions etc
National Insurance really should be abolished and merged with Income Tax. There is no excuse to be raiding considerably more tax from some people's incomes than others with the exact same income.
Can you show me any post that I object to income tax rises in these circumstances
You resentment is unfortunate and it does sadden me that you are making this rather personal
I only objected as you used your "I have paid my taxes all my life" line.
I'm sorry its not true. You're not paying National Insurance so you're not paying it all your life. And when you were of working age then NI wasn't so high.
Its only when Boomers got old that suddenly moving tax onto NI instead of Income Tax became a great idea. Its despicable - and I'd appreciate it if you didn't claim to be paying taxes all your life and recognised that you're not paying the same tax rates as others are.
You do realise that on retirement I had a substantial drop in my income and the state pension is insufficient
It is not as if I was earning the income I was when I was working
And if taxation is equally applicable to all then your taxation would have fallen in line with it.
Your costs should have come down too as you wouldn't be commuting in to work etc too.
So why do you need and deserve a lower tax rate than someone who is commuting in to work for the same gross income as you have?
Commuting to work was not an issue in my working days as my business was nearby
You need to review your political priorities and find a party who backs your desire re tax
I have nothing further to add as I do not want to fallout with you
For tax I desire low tax rates applied fairly and evenly to all. Which party is that meant to be?
I thought it was meant to be the Tories. Its a shame that it isn't.
It’s obviously humiliating for the cllr, but has he actually crossed a line? What do PB’ers think? Just a bit scummy - or - totally way over the line creepy, get the pitchforks out?
Trick is not to let people "get you drunk."
The accuser guy (girl?) I think he/she is trans, doesn’t come across very well at all.
The main problem, I think, is they’re on complete ideologically opposite sides of the Green Party. Rather naive of the councillor to think they could be compatible…
Have they asked how "fair" is is to end the triple lock for the elderly? My guess is the figures reverse.
So either Boris has just annoyed everyone and he'll be voted out... or he's managed to spread around the "cost" of social care reform in a way that he'll probably get away with...
We seem to be going in the direction of a Scandinavian style democracy to me: social democracy, mildly socially conservative, community-focussed, sceptical of migration, and relatively isolationist.
Maybe that's what people want.
Unfortunately, they are only tolerant towards those who conform to societal norms. I don't want that. I want rebels, cricket statisticians, real ale festivals, Banksies, ravers, Goths, performance artists, public inebriation pansexuals, revolutionaries, spliff rollers, doggers, steam train enthusiasts, eccentrics of all kinds, as well. That's what makes Britain great.
That’s just preaching to the perverted on this site.
What's always been odd to me is the way people bang on about the NHS as being some amazing service that isn't replicated anywhere in the world. I've lived overseas and my experience in Switzerland was far, far better than anything I've had here with the NHS. It has become completely impervious to criticism and therefore impossible to reform, all it is now is a money black hole which will continue to take a greater and greater share of national income while providing lesser and lesser service for the substantial grants it receives.
All over Europe healthcare is universally available and everywhere I've been has been hugely better than the NHS and the people are significantly healthier because there doesn't exist and attitude of "well who cares if I get sick, the NHS will fix it for me". I see a lot less of that from my European friends as compared to the general British attitude towards their own health.
If you want to spend Swiss levels og public money on healthcare then go for it.
The thing that makes the NHS so amazing is how incredibly cheap it is.
To get to swiss levels you are proposing a 20% increase to the NHS budget.
12% of GDP in Switzerland vs a proposed 12% here by the end of next year. I know which system I'd rather have.
I’m in Switzerland right now. I went to beautiful Bellinzona today.
It’s a lovely little city, exquisitely preserved. Everyone sits around the sunny piazzas eating pizza and gelati under the castle walls
Despite this diet I was struck by the paucity of fat people. There aren’t any. Well, there must be, but nothing like the obesity you see in Britain (let alone the USA)
They also walk and bike everywhere and live til they’re about 98.
In many ways the problem with British healthcare is not British healthcare but the British way of life. We are too fat and lazy. Simple as.
Solve that and much of the pressure on the NHS would disappear and it would be one of the best value health systems in the world
Yes, and while comparing countries' health outcomes from covid is a minefield, I would argue that if the British have had worse health outcomes than elsewhere, the majority of this can be explained by our high proportion of fatties. See also: Belgium, Russia and the Czech Republic.
Is fatness an inherent feature of Britain (and its population density and weather and/or legacy of heavy industry - see also: Belgium) or is it the results of inputs which can be changed? Regrettably my instinct is the former.
A complex mixture I’d say. Which makes it hard but not impossible to solve.
Also worth noting that even in slender Switzerland obesity has doubled, in some age groups, in 20 years. It’s a global problem
On the upside we are, I read, quite close to major new drugs which will help tackle this.
I suspect there will be a grim NHS winter this year and that is in part driving this move. It was already collapsing at the seams before Covid, but was somewhat disguised by the pandemic. Now there is an overhang. The Tory government will want to get out ahead of the bad news
Am just home and catching up on developments. The decision to gerrymander the triple lock (which I didn't think the Tories would dare to do) and to make the new slab of NI applicable to the earnings of older workers makes me somewhat better disposed towards the Government.
None of this, however, disguises the fact that the measures are focussed wholly on penalising incomes and shielding assets. Or that the NHS won't swallow the bulk of this money without it even touching the sides and immediately demand even more. Or that the care providers are complaining that the crumbs they've been allowed to take from the NHS' table are wholly insufficient - and that they're most likely right about this.
So, the next few years are going to be an exciting game of guessing how far the Government will allow health and social care to continue to deteriorate; which budgets may be pilfered to try to plug the gaps; how long they can hold off bringing in the next round of tax rises; and how much further they're going to squeeze incomes before going after assets, if they ever dare do the latter.
Certainly the notion that a 1.25% NI hike offers a resolution of the tremendous social care problem is patent nonsense. This ain't over, it's just getting started.
That's a surprisingly sensible attitude from them. Not that its necessarily a great plan, but it shows they recognise its enough of a real problem that if they vote against they need to come up with more than just opposing tax increases.
Or its the power of a big majority making widescale rebellion pointless. Few PMs have had that advantage.
Unpopular measures, if it is, can be handled. People were against reopening but when it went ok they forgot about it.
We seem to be going in the direction of a Scandinavian style democracy to me: social democracy, mildly socially conservative, community-focussed, sceptical of migration, and relatively isolationist.
Maybe that's what people want.
Unfortunately, they are only tolerant towards those who conform to societal norms. I don't want that. I want rebels, cricket statisticians, real ale festivals, Banksies, ravers, Goths, performance artists, public inebriation pansexuals, revolutionaries, spliff rollers, doggers, steam train enthusiasts, eccentrics of all kinds, as well. That's what makes Britain great.
I note that Extinction Rebellion Demonstrators is not on your list
It’s obviously humiliating for the cllr, but has he actually crossed a line? What do PB’ers think? Just a bit scummy - or - totally way over the line creepy, get the pitchforks out?
Tricky one to comment on. My comments.
1 - A formal complaint has not been made via either the Council procedures or the police. Instead we have an internal party complaint, followed by allegation-by-twitter. 2 - If the alleged behaviour is true then imo it is well over the line. 3 - It's not a good look for the self-identify-without-any-medical-input transgenderist lobby. 4 - One question - are drunk men viewed as having capacity to consent to sex, or is that just women, under the (?) 2003 Sexual Offences Act? Harriet Harman did love her sectarian-by-sex laws.
It’s obviously humiliating for the cllr, but has he actually crossed a line? What do PB’ers think? Just a bit scummy - or - totally way over the line creepy, get the pitchforks out?
Tricky one to comment on. My comments.
1 - A formal complaint has not been made via either the Council procedures or the police. Instead we have an internal party complaint, followed by allegation-by-twitter. 2 - If the alleged behaviour is true then imo it is well over the line. 3 - It's not a good look for the self-identify-without-any-medical-input transgenderist lobby. 4 - One question - are drunk men viewed as having capacity to consent to sex, or is that just women, under the (?) 2003 Sexual Offences Act? Harriet Harman did love her sectarian-by-sex laws.
My understanding - although I could be wrong - is that drunkenness is considered as removing the capacity for consent for men as well as women.
It’s obviously humiliating for the cllr, but has he actually crossed a line? What do PB’ers think? Just a bit scummy - or - totally way over the line creepy, get the pitchforks out?
Tricky one to comment on. My comments.
1 - A formal complaint has not been made via either the Council procedures or the police. Instead we have an internal party complaint, followed by allegation-by-twitter. 2 - If the alleged behaviour is true then imo it is well over the line. 3 - It's not a good look for the self-identify-without-any-medical-input transgenderist lobby. 4 - One question - are drunk men viewed as having capacity to consent to sex, or is that just women, under the (?) 2003 Sexual Offences Act? Harriet Harman did love her sectarian-by-sex laws.
My understanding - although I could be wrong - is that drunkenness is considered as removing the capacity for consent for men as well as women.
Surely it has to otherwise the law would breach sexual equality legislation..
Comments
You resentment is unfortunate and it does sadden me that you are making this rather personal
You are way to savvy to know there isn’t just income tax, corporation, tax Phil, nor even just adding VAT and NI going up as Maggie and Major made their promises.
If today’s announcement so brave and brazen on triple lock and Ni, what are coming budgets going to be like on stealth taxes.
Maybe that's what people want.
Split with Savanta too.
The house sale business hasn't changed anything in principle, and, to be fair, there's a case for not doing so. All that's happened is that the goalposts have been moved. The big question, when it actually gets close up and personal, is what is health care and what is social care. And there's been, and I stand to be corrected, no re-definition there.
Still think tax wealth not workers would have been a better line to go on but I can no longer say conclusively they aren't following the polling
https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1435269320666402818
A typical 25-year-old will pay an extra £12,600 over their working lives from today's tax rise (and that's just the employee part of it). A retired pensioner (unless they have lots of shares) will pay precisely nothing
https://twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/1435267675115167746
It's frustrating.
https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1435269695603683329
I'm sorry its not true. You're not paying National Insurance so you're not paying it all your life. And when you were of working age then NI wasn't so high.
Its only when Boomers got old that suddenly moving tax onto NI instead of Income Tax became a great idea. Its despicable - and I'd appreciate it if you didn't claim to be paying taxes all your life and recognised that you're not paying the same tax rates as others are.
😁
https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Snobbery-David-Skelton/dp/1785906577
I wonder though as Max said, whether this increases the Tory voting age, 25-49 year olds also oppose by 53%, so that would put the Tory voting age into the mid 50s
Loser.
Some perspective required on a little local scandal here in the west mids, please. I’m trying to calibrate my moral compass.
Green councillor has just had a pile of sexual harassment allegations made against him by a (fairly) senior Green Party member, as per this thread;
https://www.twitter.com/AshRouth/status/1434635121336930306
It’s obviously humiliating for the cllr, but has he actually crossed a line? What do PB’ers think? Just a bit scummy - or - totally way over the line creepy, get the pitchforks out?
It also depends a lot of who's breaking those promises. Top tier politicians (Blair, Thatch, Boris etc) can get away with it. Second division politicians (Major, Brown, May) can't...
And finally context is important. War, natural disasters, pandemic viruses etc... do change the equation to some degree.
2. Social justice
Abolish Universal Credit and end the Tories’ cruel sanctions regime. Set a national goal for wellbeing to make health as important as GDP; Invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach. Stand up for universal services and defend our NHS. Support the abolition of tuition fees and invest in lifelong learning.
Of course the £6 billion a year question is, would he write off existing debt?
It's running and dog walking that keep me lean now. Not as much fun but I sleep much better.
Only it doesn’t fit on a bill board or front of the Sun, does it.
Obviously the higher the crossover, the fewer young people Starmer needs to get to vote - but those people crossing over need to actually vote, not stay at home.
I'm going to up my Labour poll lead bet again
It is not as if I was earning the income I was when I was working
another poll has the CSU on only 29%: https://twitter.com/Wahlen_DE/status/1435118299197624321
The trouble is that nobody is following his lead on that one.
Your costs should have come down too as you wouldn't be commuting in to work etc too.
So why do you need and deserve a lower tax rate than someone who is commuting in to work for the same gross income as you have?
It would therefore seem that you want to loosen up rules on bars and nightclubs, and high rise apartments, and oppose any measures that would be in any way convenient for the elderly. So, for example, those McCarthy & Stone sheltered accomodation places should be blocked if at all possible.
You might even want to see about introducing a scheme where you pay lost "stamp duty" to any oldie trading down and leaving the council area.
I want rebels, cricket statisticians, real ale festivals, Banksies, ravers, Goths, performance artists, public inebriation pansexuals, revolutionaries, spliff rollers, doggers, steam train enthusiasts, eccentrics of all kinds, as well.
That's what makes Britain great.
18-24 year olds: -40
25-49 year olds: -22
50-64 year olds: -7
65+ year olds: +30
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1435269917973024776?s=20
You need to review your political priorities and find a party who backs your desire re tax
I have nothing further to add as I do not want to fallout with you
I thought it was meant to be the Tories. Its a shame that it isn't.
The main problem, I think, is they’re on complete ideologically opposite sides of the Green Party. Rather naive of the councillor to think they could be compatible…
So either Boris has just annoyed everyone and he'll be voted out... or he's managed to spread around the "cost" of social care reform in a way that he'll probably get away with...
NEW THREAD
Maybe Tories should practice chants like 'Labour scum hate the NHS'. 'Labour vermin kill old people'.
None of this, however, disguises the fact that the measures are focussed wholly on penalising incomes and shielding assets. Or that the NHS won't swallow the bulk of this money without it even touching the sides and immediately demand even more. Or that the care providers are complaining that the crumbs they've been allowed to take from the NHS' table are wholly insufficient - and that they're most likely right about this.
So, the next few years are going to be an exciting game of guessing how far the Government will allow health and social care to continue to deteriorate; which budgets may be pilfered to try to plug the gaps; how long they can hold off bringing in the next round of tax rises; and how much further they're going to squeeze incomes before going after assets, if they ever dare do the latter.
Certainly the notion that a 1.25% NI hike offers a resolution of the tremendous social care problem is patent nonsense. This ain't over, it's just getting started.
"Most rebels will swallow it and recognise the PM has the momentum," says an ex-minister
Senior Tory MP: "If you vote against it, where does that leave social care?"
https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1435275633484091401?s=20
Or its the power of a big majority making widescale rebellion pointless. Few PMs have had that advantage.
Unpopular measures, if it is, can be handled. People were against reopening but when it went ok they forgot about it.
1 - A formal complaint has not been made via either the Council procedures or the police. Instead we have an internal party complaint, followed by allegation-by-twitter.
2 - If the alleged behaviour is true then imo it is well over the line.
3 - It's not a good look for the self-identify-without-any-medical-input transgenderist lobby.
4 - One question - are drunk men viewed as having capacity to consent to sex, or is that just women, under the (?) 2003 Sexual Offences Act? Harriet Harman did love her sectarian-by-sex laws.