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If you’re betting on Raab as next PM/Con leader look away now – politicalbetting.com

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  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,752
    Leon said:

    Mr. Royale, almost as if operating a taxi service, providing free food and accommodation, and with a non-contributory welfare system isn't deterring people.

    That's the problem.

    Theoretically, we could let people drown or starve and the message would get through to potential migrants eventually. But as a country, we couldn't, could we?

    We could change the basis of the UK's welfare system or have ID cards, but we won't, will we?

    So all the government can do is shout. Which becomes ineffectual pretty quickly.

    Moral: don't make promises that it's not in your power to keep. If you're not sure about this, ask Nick Clegg.

    Countries can’t or won’t do ruthless or unwanted things… until they have to

    France has introduced vaxports for everywhere. A young unvaxed female friend of mine was kicked out of a cafe in Avignon yesterday. No vaxport, no croissant.

    These vaxports would have been unthinkable 3 years ago, but dire circumstances forced them, and here they are. And the French accept them (and they work, in terms of vaccine uptake)

    I can see a point where - if enough boats tried to cross - we would just turn them back with force. Make the French decide whether they live or die.

    We are a long long way from that, of course. And hopefully we will never get there.
    When we can identify, track and take action against terrorists on the other side of the world, why is it so difficult to do something about people traffickers who are operating much more visibly, both in their activities and financially?
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    Well, I'm in despair. This isn't the Conservative Party anymore. A massive tax on jobs and working people.

    I hope Labour burn his arse with it.

    It’s not been the Tory party for a while. Sugar tax, gambling bans, calories on menus coming, online so called junk food ban coming, this is a social democrat centrist govt in all but name which panders to the far right on migrants.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited September 2021

    Being grumpy about this new health & social care levy.
    BUT world is a better place after today:
    - more money for NHS & care was needed
    - big issues in social care means test addressed
    - tax rises were inevitable
    - this is a progressive and broad based increase


    https://twitter.com/PJTheEconomist/status/1435213616022753285?s=20

    Oh bollocks is it progressive.
    From the Command Paper:

    For individuals, the Levy will be progressive. 6.2 million people earning less than the Primary Threshold/Lower Profits Limit of £9,568 in 2021-22 will not pay the Levy. A typical basic rate taxpayer earning £24,100 will contribute £180 in 2022-23, while a typical higher rate taxpayer earning £67,100 will contribute £715. Additional rate taxpayers make up just two per cent of individuals affected but will contribute nearly 20 per cent of the revenue raised from individuals. The highest earning 14 per cent will pay around half the revenues. The Levy will not apply to Class 2 or 3 NICs, protecting the lowest paid self-employed workers and people making voluntary contributions.
  • AlistairM said:

    Just saw Jon Ashworth on TV. Absolutely no policies whatsoever other than saying the Tories have broken their manifesto commitment despite Boris tackling that head on in his statement.

    It was almost as if the whole pandemic had past Jon Ashworth by. He seemed unable to comprehend why a social care plan in 2019 didn't need tax rises but one in 2021 after the global pandemic which has cost vast amounts of money would do.

    The Tories are lucky that the opposition are even worse than them.

    Rishi Sunak promised no tax rises in March 2021.

  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    AlistairM said:

    Just saw Jon Ashworth on TV. Absolutely no policies whatsoever other than saying the Tories have broken their manifesto commitment despite Boris tackling that head on in his statement.

    It was almost as if the whole pandemic had past Jon Ashworth by. He seemed unable to comprehend why a social care plan in 2019 didn't need tax rises but one in 2021 after the global pandemic which has cost vast amounts of money would do.

    The Tories are lucky that the opposition are even worse than them.

    Yes, they are gifted by a talent vacuum on the opposition benches.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Anyhoo my work and I have decided that most of will not returning to the office until next year, a decision will be made in January, so it is likely we will have worked from home for nearly two years.

    WFH is turning into a nightmare for us in our dealings with Local Authorities. God knows what is happening, but average invoice payment times have increased from 30 days to over 100 days. You can never speak to anyone and nothing ever gets resolved. LAs used to be our best customers, now they are the worst.
    That is absolutely disgraceful. In my view there should be legislation brought in to punish late payment of legitimate invoices.
    I wonder what other services that LAs provide are also suffering, WFH does not work in the public sector.
    It can work but it requires automation and an avoidance of actual paper. Both of which Local Governments are crap at.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Keep losing votes and you can have pure Conservativism from the Opposition benches like you did under IDS instead of compromising your principles then but getting some of what you want from being in government.

    You really are a blue Corbynite.
    You haven’t had conservatism since 2010 why should now be any different
  • Being grumpy about this new health & social care levy.
    BUT world is a better place after today:
    - more money for NHS & care was needed
    - big issues in social care means test addressed
    - tax rises were inevitable
    - this is a progressive and broad based increase


    https://twitter.com/PJTheEconomist/status/1435213616022753285?s=20

    Oh bollocks is it progressive.
    From the Command Paper:

    For individuals, the Levy will be progressive. 6.2 million people earning less than the Primary Threshold/Lower Profits Limit of £9,568 in 2021-22 will not pay the Levy. A typical basic rate taxpayer earning £24,100 will contribute £180 in 2022-23, while a typical higher rate taxpayer earning £67,100 will contribute £715. Additional rate taxpayers make up just two per cent of individuals affected but will contribute nearly 20 per cent of the revenue raised from individuals. The highest earning 14 per cent will pay around half the revenues. The Levy will not apply to Class 2 or 3 NICs, protecting the lowest paid self-employed workers and people making voluntary contributions.
    That doesn't answer my point at all.

    "Protecting" one class of people from paying the tax does not make it progressive when people earning the same wages elsewhere have to pay the tax.

    It just makes the tax unfair, and inconsistently applied, not progressive.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    They both want to repeat May's disastrous dementia tax or raise inheritance tax or impose a wealth tax to avoid a mere less than 1.5% rise in NI for the NHS and social care, on that basis Sir Ed Davey is welcome to them!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    https://twitter.com/Lucywwatson/status/1435006036805566468

    An issue that I would like to be solved - and I am sure it might be if our lot could be bothered to vote.

    Honestly if they don't vote in 2024, I might move to Switzerland

    Amazingly that coincides exactly with Labour liberalising BTL. That shift away from preferring owner occupiers to allowing everyone and their dog buying up property to leech off the younger generations has well and truly fucked the housing market in this country, especially anywhere in London or the home counties as well as a few northern and Scottish cities.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Is anyone really surprised that this would happen just at the time when the Baby Boomer generation start to potentially require the use of care home facilities? I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just a reality.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    QTWAIN.
    Big John Owls seems to be one.
    I'm not. But I'm even more in awe of the PM's cynical chutzpah than I was.
    He keeps squaring circles.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    https://twitter.com/Lucywwatson/status/1435006036805566468

    An issue that I would like to be solved - and I am sure it might be if our lot could be bothered to vote.

    Honestly if they don't vote in 2024, I might move to Switzerland

    You didn’t stay away long after your flounce yesterday 😂😂😂😂
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
  • MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.

    You'll all vote Tory at the next election.

  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,752
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=l20PlJtfk0IC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Diverse take: a bigger danger to HMG is not a quasi-botched tax rise, but the 1,000 illegal immigrants who crossed the Channel yesterday, a new record.

    These Channel crossings makes you proud to be British and it should make you proud to be a Brexiteer.

    Think about it, people are fleeing France (which is in the EU) to come Brexit Britain.

    What's not to love?
    Makes you think Unternehmen Seelöwe would have been a walkover, mind. We owe a lot to Uncle Joe.
    Uncle joe declared war on Hitler to help us did he? No, he happily carved up Poland with them and only did anything when they got invaded.
    I wasn't 100% serious, and Hitler decided to invade Russia in December 1940, not vice versa.
    First (& probably not last) pedantry of the day

    June 1941
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=l20PlJtfk0IC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

  • GMS kept us waiting:

    Sonntagsfrage GMS zur Bundestagswahl • SPD 25 % (+10%) | CDU/CSU 23 % (-7%) | GRÜNE 17 % | FDP 12 % | AfD 11 % | DIE LINKE 6 % | Sonstige 6 %

    Changes on six weeks ago.
  • MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.

    You'll all vote Tory at the next election.

    Not if this is the future of the Tory party I won't.

    I didn't vote for the Tories in 2019 European Parliament. I didn't vote for the Tories in 2001 GE and 2002/03 (from memory) local elections. Besides that I have a 100% record of voting for the party, but only because I thought the party was a better choice.

    If Ed Davey's Lib Dems are a better choice, they can have my vote next time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    I've been out of the party ever since Boris decided to back Dom and his Bernard Castle lies. I returned my membership and cancelled my monthly donation. I haven't regretted it and now the Tories have lost me as a voter, probably for a very long time until a fiscally conservative, low tax Tory wins the leadership and rolls back all of these unnecessary taxes on working people.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    "Vote for the Epping Conservative!"
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Taz said:

    Well, I'm in despair. This isn't the Conservative Party anymore. A massive tax on jobs and working people.

    I hope Labour burn his arse with it.

    It’s not been the Tory party for a while. Sugar tax, gambling bans, calories on menus coming, online so called junk food ban coming, this is a social democrat centrist govt in all but name which panders to the far right on migrants.
    It's the Tory Party all right. Just the re-emergence of the pre-Thatcher ideology free Tory Party. Which many don't remember.
    2019 staked the corpse of Maggie.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.

    You'll all vote Tory at the next election.

    Not a chance. I live in a Tory/LD marginal, I'll be voting LD for sure.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,752

    HYUFD said:

    Justin Trudeau hit by gravel thrown by protestors at a campaign stop in Ontario
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58472456

    Are they chipping away at his popularity?
    Only in aggregate.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited September 2021

    WFH is turning into a nightmare for us in our dealings with Local Authorities. God knows what is happening, but average invoice payment times have increased from 30 days to over 100 days. You can never speak to anyone and nothing ever gets resolved. LAs used to be our best customers, now they are the worst.

    Early last year I decided to apply for a Veterans' Railcard. There was simply no one available anywhere at MoD or the Civil Service or wherever it was supposed to be to process it. No one answering the phone ("during the pandemic we are unable to....") not even people WFH. Nothing.

    Only last month did someone finally respond and I now have my (virtual) railcard.

  • MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    I've been out of the party ever since Boris decided to back Dom and his Bernard Castle lies. I returned my membership and cancelled my monthly donation. I haven't regretted it and now the Tories have lost me as a voter, probably for a very long time until a fiscally conservative, low tax Tory wins the leadership and rolls back all of these unnecessary taxes on working people.
    Even if the alternative plans to soften Brexit?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    They both want to repeat May's disastrous dementia tax or raise inheritance tax or impose a wealth tax to avoid a mere less than 1.5% rise in NI for the NHS and social care, on that basis Sir Ed Davey is welcome to them!
    The conservative party cannot remain in power without a cross section of views and your arbitrary attitude to something you call 'pure' is just as bad as anything from the Corbynites and would see the party in the wilderness
  • MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    I've been out of the party ever since Boris decided to back Dom and his Bernard Castle lies. I returned my membership and cancelled my monthly donation. I haven't regretted it and now the Tories have lost me as a voter, probably for a very long time until a fiscally conservative, low tax Tory wins the leadership and rolls back all of these unnecessary taxes on working people.
    Even if the alternative plans to soften Brexit?
    Brexit's done.

    Our post-Brexit future is up for debate, but that's domestic politics now. What matters is who is best for domestic politics and the Tories have shown today its not them.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    dixiedean said:

    Taz said:

    Well, I'm in despair. This isn't the Conservative Party anymore. A massive tax on jobs and working people.

    I hope Labour burn his arse with it.

    It’s not been the Tory party for a while. Sugar tax, gambling bans, calories on menus coming, online so called junk food ban coming, this is a social democrat centrist govt in all but name which panders to the far right on migrants.
    It's the Tory Party all right. Just the re-emergence of the pre-Thatcher ideology free Tory Party. Which many don't remember.
    2019 staked the corpse of Maggie.
    To some extent true, from 1945 to 1975 the Liberals were the most classically liberal party not the Tories just as Gladstone's Liberals were more classically liberal than Disraeli's Tories in the 19th century
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Aren’t non pensioners paying towards their own future social care? That’s the way I’d try to sell it anyway
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Taz said:

    https://twitter.com/Lucywwatson/status/1435006036805566468

    An issue that I would like to be solved - and I am sure it might be if our lot could be bothered to vote.

    Honestly if they don't vote in 2024, I might move to Switzerland

    You didn’t stay away long after your flounce yesterday 😂😂😂😂
    Don't be a twat he was obviously upset/angry.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    GMS kept us waiting:

    Sonntagsfrage GMS zur Bundestagswahl • SPD 25 % (+10%) | CDU/CSU 23 % (-7%) | GRÜNE 17 % | FDP 12 % | AfD 11 % | DIE LINKE 6 % | Sonstige 6 %

    Changes on six weeks ago.

    That's a good poll for the Union.
    And, significantly, I think, the first one to show the government being re-elected with a majority. Which I have been thinking looks on for a while.
    Just major and minor partners swapping over.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    I've been out of the party ever since Boris decided to back Dom and his Bernard Castle lies. I returned my membership and cancelled my monthly donation. I haven't regretted it and now the Tories have lost me as a voter, probably for a very long time until a fiscally conservative, low tax Tory wins the leadership and rolls back all of these unnecessary taxes on working people.
    Even if the alternative plans to soften Brexit?
    Ultimately it is what it is at this stage, I can't vote for a party that puts up taxes on working people and exempts rich pensioners. I might just be able to live with it if everyone was paying as a "well it has to start at some point" policy but choosing NI means someone on a £20k salary is being hit with a tax rise and probable pay freeze while a pensioner with £40k in income will get a 2.5% rise in their state pension and not see any tax rises.
  • You cannot believe a word the Tories say ...
    https://twitter.com/no_bollocks/status/1435227020234051585
  • MaxPB said:

    Minor point… but this new tax levy is to be paid on dividends… will dividends on shares held in an ISA be affected?

    I'd be shocked if that was the case. It would take absolute balls of steel to tax ISAs.
    Actually with interest rates so low currently, it would be good government, but bad politics, to scrap ISAs now.
  • MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    I've been out of the party ever since Boris decided to back Dom and his Bernard Castle lies. I returned my membership and cancelled my monthly donation. I haven't regretted it and now the Tories have lost me as a voter, probably for a very long time until a fiscally conservative, low tax Tory wins the leadership and rolls back all of these unnecessary taxes on working people.
    I understand that but simply lament your loss rather than the idiotic purity of @HYUFD
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited September 2021
    isam said:

    Aren’t non pensioners paying towards their own future social care? That’s the way I’d try to sell it anyway

    It's a 7/1 shot you'll need it. People don't feel lucky.

    Just like one in two (?) people get divorced according to the stats but 0% of people, upon getting married, think they will get divorced.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    MaxPB said:

    Minor point… but this new tax levy is to be paid on dividends… will dividends on shares held in an ISA be affected?

    I'd be shocked if that was the case. It would take absolute balls of steel to tax ISAs.
    Actually with interest rates so low currently, it would be good government, but bad politics, to scrap ISAs now.
    Cash ISA’s presumably not stocks and shares ones ?
  • Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    "Vote for the Epping Conservative!"
    If that was the choice I would be with @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited September 2021
    Taz said:

    Well, I'm in despair. This isn't the Conservative Party anymore. A massive tax on jobs and working people.

    I hope Labour burn his arse with it.

    It’s not been the Tory party for a while. Sugar tax, gambling bans, calories on menus coming, online so called junk food ban coming, this is a social democrat centrist govt in all but name which panders to the far right on migrants.
    It might talk tough on migrants but doesn't actually do anything about the problem, satisfying no-one.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    I've been out of the party ever since Boris decided to back Dom and his Bernard Castle lies. I returned my membership and cancelled my monthly donation. I haven't regretted it and now the Tories have lost me as a voter, probably for a very long time until a fiscally conservative, low tax Tory wins the leadership and rolls back all of these unnecessary taxes on working people.
    Even if the alternative plans to soften Brexit?
    Ultimately it is what it is at this stage, I can't vote for a party that puts up taxes on working people and exempts rich pensioners. I might just be able to live with it if everyone was paying as a "well it has to start at some point" policy but choosing NI means someone on a £20k salary is being hit with a tax rise and probable pay freeze while a pensioner with £40k in income will get a 2.5% rise in their state pension and not see any tax rises.
    Grand. And possibly quite informative.

    One of the things about 2019 was the "don't like BoJo but must defend Proper Full Fat Brexit" slice of the electorate.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.

    You'll all vote Tory at the next election.

    Unfair.
    Though I'd be very surprised if none of them did.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    "Vote for the Epping Conservative!"
    If that was the choice I would be with @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB
    Well at least 2/3 of you voted for Blair so fine with me
  • HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    At least Philip has some principles, a lot more than you it seems - and I have a great deal of respect for your posts.
    Pointless principle. Its got to.be paid for somehow. Govts break manifesto pledges all the time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    "Vote for the Epping Conservative!"
    If that was the choice I would be with @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB
    Well at least 2/3 of you voted for Blair so fine with me
    Is that my favourite Remainer opining on who is a pure Conservative?

    (Hint: no one who voted Remain)
  • TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    Just HYUFD, as always :lol:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited September 2021

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    I've been out of the party ever since Boris decided to back Dom and his Bernard Castle lies. I returned my membership and cancelled my monthly donation. I haven't regretted it and now the Tories have lost me as a voter, probably for a very long time until a fiscally conservative, low tax Tory wins the leadership and rolls back all of these unnecessary taxes on working people.
    Even if the alternative plans to soften Brexit?
    Ultimately it is what it is at this stage, I can't vote for a party that puts up taxes on working people and exempts rich pensioners. I might just be able to live with it if everyone was paying as a "well it has to start at some point" policy but choosing NI means someone on a £20k salary is being hit with a tax rise and probable pay freeze while a pensioner with £40k in income will get a 2.5% rise in their state pension and not see any tax rises.
    Grand. And possibly quite informative.

    One of the things about 2019 was the "don't like BoJo but must defend Proper Full Fat Brexit" slice of the electorate.
    2019 = don't like BoJo but cannot abide Corbyn. For many, many Remainer Cons voters at least. Or even sensible voters.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    https://twitter.com/Lucywwatson/status/1435006036805566468

    An issue that I would like to be solved - and I am sure it might be if our lot could be bothered to vote.

    Honestly if they don't vote in 2024, I might move to Switzerland

    You didn’t stay away long after your flounce yesterday 😂😂😂😂
    Don't be a twat he was obviously upset/angry.
    So why not just leave instead of announcing he was going. It’s ridiculous. Especially when he reappears in less than 24 hours.

    Oh, and no need to be rude either. I’ve never been rude to you or even exchanged a comment with you. Some people
  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    "Vote for the Epping Conservative!"
    If that was the choice I would be with @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB
    Well at least 2/3 of you voted for Blair so fine with me
    And Blair won. 🤦‍♂️
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    "Vote for the Epping Conservative!"
    If that was the choice I would be with @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB
    Well at least 2/3 of you voted for Blair so fine with me
    Is that my favourite Remainer opining on who is a pure Conservative?

    (Hint: no one who voted Remain)
    Wrong, otherwise May, Cameron, even Cabinet Members like Williamson and Coffey and Truss would not be Tories.

    As long as you accepted the Brexit result you are still a Tory
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    "Vote for the Epping Conservative!"
    If that was the choice I would be with @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB
    Well at least 2/3 of you voted for Blair so fine with me
    And Blair won. 🤦‍♂️
    As a Liberal effectively, not a Tory.

    Blair ran more of a Palmerston Liberal government than a Labour one but it was still not a Tory one either
  • dixiedean said:

    GMS kept us waiting:

    Sonntagsfrage GMS zur Bundestagswahl • SPD 25 % (+10%) | CDU/CSU 23 % (-7%) | GRÜNE 17 % | FDP 12 % | AfD 11 % | DIE LINKE 6 % | Sonstige 6 %

    Changes on six weeks ago.

    That's a good poll for the Union.
    And, significantly, I think, the first one to show the government being re-elected with a majority. Which I have been thinking looks on for a while.
    Just major and minor partners swapping over.
    I don't think there would a grand coalition on that result. The SPD won't prop up the sinking ship..

    However I do also want to point out the 15% lead over the SPD was 3% more than other polls, at least, six weeks ago. Therefore they are showing approximately the same shift as other pollsters with a 5% lead at the moment.

    Yes, clearly the CDU will be happy with a poll that doesn't show them as much as 5% behind but I think this polls was pretty much par.
  • HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    At least Philip has some principles, a lot more than you it seems - and I have a great deal of respect for your posts.
    Pointless principle. Its got to.be paid for somehow. Govts break manifesto pledges all the time.
    Why is a principle that tax should be fair, low and equitable "pointless"?

    Running a deficit would be better than putting up a jobs tax while trying to come out of a recession.

    But if you're going to put up taxes, why only jobs and not unearned incomes?
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,752
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    SNP are going for the jugular

    https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1435209648429322241

    The SNP
    @theSNP
    ·
    46m
    Police cars revolving light Boris Johnson’s new poll tax will see a regressive tax hike unfairly penalising young people, low paid workers and families.

    Banknote with pound sign Tories want to tax Scottish workers twice, forcing them to pay the bill for social care in England, as well as Scotland.

    How would the SNP pay for social care in Scotland then once the Treasury's subsidy went?
    Ah yes, Scotland - Schrödinger's nation. Too poor to support itself, too valuable to be allowed to leave.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    "Vote for the Epping Conservative!"
    If that was the choice I would be with @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB
    Well at least 2/3 of you voted for Blair so fine with me
    Mate, Blair won three elections. Starmer is no Blair but the foundation of Tory support is crumbling and you can't see it. The average age of becoming a Tory voter will rise to around 60 at the next election and Boris will lose the majority.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    https://twitter.com/Lucywwatson/status/1435006036805566468

    An issue that I would like to be solved - and I am sure it might be if our lot could be bothered to vote.

    Honestly if they don't vote in 2024, I might move to Switzerland

    You didn’t stay away long after your flounce yesterday 😂😂😂😂
    Don't be a twat he was obviously upset/angry.
    So why not just leave instead of announcing he was going. It’s ridiculous. Especially when he reappears in less than 24 hours.

    Oh, and no need to be rude either. I’ve never been rude to you or even exchanged a comment with you. Some people
    "Flounce" is rude. If you are going to start being rude then don't complain when people are rude.

    And as for his absence, when people are upset or angry they use rhetorical flourishes and right that's it I'm off is a perfectly understandable one.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    Ah ha. Clearer now. This is not using a tax rise to fix social care, it's using Covid as cover for a tax rise for the NHS, and pretending that the funds raised will also fix social care, thus getting Johnson off the hook of his promise on that score. Smoke and mirrors. There is no Social Care Plan, not really, it's going to have to wait a bit longer, probably until there's a Labour PM.

    You must be happy though with a Brownian tax rise to raise money for the NHS.

    I am not.
    Wealth Tax plus a rise in top rate Income Tax would be my choice. NI is not the way to go. I'm not always able to get behind what the Labour left position is, but I have no problem doing so here.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    "Vote for the Epping Conservative!"
    If that was the choice I would be with @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB
    Well at least 2/3 of you voted for Blair so fine with me
    Is that my favourite Remainer opining on who is a pure Conservative?

    (Hint: no one who voted Remain)
    Wrong, otherwise May, Cameron, even Cabinet Members like Williamson and Coffey and Truss would not be Tories.

    As long as you accepted the Brexit result you are still a Tory
    No you are not. Not a proper one. Because a proper Tory ideologically believes in Brexit. Of course the people you mention have accepted it, as have you. But they don't believe it, they accept its democratic validity. An ideological Tory is a Brexiter. You are not that.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
    Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited September 2021
    isam said:

    Aren’t non pensioners paying towards their own future social care? That’s the way I’d try to sell it anyway

    Only if the scheme exists by the time they become pensioners.

    And that doesn't matter as this current plan has winners and they sit in very expensive properties in the home counties.

    By implementing the caps at the same time as the new tax Boris has created a story that has losers and same big winners - and that is story Labour will be able to use at the next election.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
    Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
    Let's pay particular attention to Ed D's progress in that case. Don't want to lose you to another country.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    MikeL said:

    The idea that anyone (*) would not vote Conservative because of today's tax rises is absurd given that everyone with half a brain cell knows that if Labour win the next GE they will raise taxes by a massively greater amount.

    This announcement is absolute chicken feed - as stated above £180 for someone earning £24k, £715 for anyone earning £67k.

    It is not going to have any discernible effect on anyone's life.

    (Though if you are lucky enough to get an operation quicker then it will have a discernible effect on your life).

    (*) Other than ideological anoraks on PB.

    Yep! Boris will get away with this.

    The end of the triple lock will probably cause him more problems actually...
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
    I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.

    Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
    Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
    Let's pay particular attention to Ed D's progress in that case. Don't want to lose you to another country.
    I think the issue is that people like us are politically homeless, who now stands for low tax, high growth and entrepreneurship? It's certainly not the Tory party.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    At the risk of sending an already irate @Philip_Thompson into premature social care....

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/07/no-10-not-ruling-out-firebreak-lockdown-if-covid-cases-rise

    No. 10 refusing to rule out a firebreak lockdown.
  • F1: apparently George Russell is going to Mercedes this year.

    Yes, I was shocked too.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1435196396882198532
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
    Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
    There is no inheritance tax at all in Switzerland nor any gift tax and it has health insurance
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Labour opposing the suspension of the triple lock this year.
  • dixiedean said:

    At the risk of sending an already irate @Philip_Thompson into premature social care....

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/07/no-10-not-ruling-out-firebreak-lockdown-if-covid-cases-rise

    No. 10 refusing to rule out a firebreak lockdown.

    ...
    image
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    BREAKING Triple lock on pensions has been SCRAPPED for 2022/23

    It means pensions will NOT rise by 8% next April. Instead will rise by inflation (or 2.5%).

    Therese Coffey says it's to stop pensioners "unfairly benefiting from a statistical anomaly".

    Is only for one year

    https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/1435233068831449091
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Is BoZo going to get his cardboard cutout cabinet to vote for this tomorrow, then sack them on Thursday?
  • I think that there there might be a crafty evolution of the "health and social care levy".
    1. Move all health and social care costs to the tax and reduce NI to make it revenue neutral.
    2. Apply it to all income.
  • MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.

    You'll all vote Tory at the next election.

    I might do what you did and simply insert a blank ballot into the box.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
    Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
    There is no inheritance tax at all in Switzerland nor any gift tax and it has health insurance
    I know, I've lived there before.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
    Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
    Let's pay particular attention to Ed D's progress in that case. Don't want to lose you to another country.
    I think the issue is that people like us are politically homeless, who now stands for low tax, high growth and entrepreneurship? It's certainly not the Tory party.
    Maybe the world has changed. Given the huge rebasing of the role of the state over the past 18 months people might have changed fundamentally in their view of how much government they want in their lives.
  • MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.

    You'll all vote Tory at the next election.

    I might do what you did and simply insert a blank ballot into the box.
    I might write something on my ballot paper.

    I'll do a deliberately spoilt ballot but I'll never not vote.
  • TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    All shit, really.

    Who's inspired by any of them?
  • Mr. Topping, the political class can agree to agree with itself and shift things a certain way for a long time. But, sooner or later, the public must either be persuaded or they'll look elsewhere.
  • Betting posts: the guilty men are Sunak, Javid and Johnson.

    Therefore, I'd be laying the former two for next Conservative leader.
  • Therese Coffey in Commons confirms breaking the triple lock after surge in wages, which would have qualified pensioners for a 8% hike in pensions. Will save Treasury £4bn. Another manifesto promise broken

    https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1435235151395627014?s=20
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
    Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
    Let's pay particular attention to Ed D's progress in that case. Don't want to lose you to another country.
    I think the issue is that people like us are politically homeless, who now stands for low tax, high growth and entrepreneurship? It's certainly not the Tory party.
    Maybe the world has changed. Given the huge rebasing of the role of the state over the past 18 months people might have changed fundamentally in their view of how much government they want in their lives.
    I wish it wasn't true but I fear you are correct. This great "freedom loving" nation is anything but. It has become a dreary country with dreary people who seem to think that they are less than 5 minutes from dying at any point so let's just hand all of our money to the NHS money black hole. How many days/weeks/months do you think will pass until the NHS is begging for more of our money and doing absolutely nothing new for it? Just more bribes for GPs to actually see patients face to face.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Jonathan Reynolds (shadow DWP) started his response by saying that breaking manifesto promises is wrong. But then he asked why the government hadn't looked at coming up with a workaround for the statistics.

    How would that have not also been a broken manifesto pledge?
  • The European Commission has asked the ECJ to impose daily fines on Poland for undermining the independence of the judiciary.

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1435226866374385665
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
    Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
    Let's pay particular attention to Ed D's progress in that case. Don't want to lose you to another country.
    I think the issue is that people like us are politically homeless, who now stands for low tax, high growth and entrepreneurship? It's certainly not the Tory party.
    Maybe the world has changed. Given the huge rebasing of the role of the state over the past 18 months people might have changed fundamentally in their view of how much government they want in their lives.
    I think it has accelerated an existing trend. See 2017 and 19 GE's.
  • Sturgeon seeking an independence referendum by 2023.

    Good luck to her.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    I've been out of the party ever since Boris decided to back Dom and his Bernard Castle lies. I returned my membership and cancelled my monthly donation. I haven't regretted it and now the Tories have lost me as a voter, probably for a very long time until a fiscally conservative, low tax Tory wins the leadership and rolls back all of these unnecessary taxes on working people.
    Even if the alternative plans to soften Brexit?
    Ultimately it is what it is at this stage, I can't vote for a party that puts up taxes on working people and exempts rich pensioners. I might just be able to live with it if everyone was paying as a "well it has to start at some point" policy but choosing NI means someone on a £20k salary is being hit with a tax rise and probable pay freeze while a pensioner with £40k in income will get a 2.5% rise in their state pension and not see any tax rises.
    I wouldn't agree, but I'd at least respect the honesty of a party that, say, wanted to whack up basic rate to 25% and top rate to a round 50% from 80k+ and use that to fund free tertiary education, free nursery childcare, extended school hours, excellent health and social care and more affordable housing etc.

    The difference is the higher tax burden would fall across all age groups, and be used to provide public services for all and at all ages.
  • Read His Tweet, No New Taxes (3rd March 2021)
    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1367097775553466368
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    edited September 2021
    tlg86 said:

    Jonathan Reynolds (shadow DWP) started his response by saying that breaking manifesto promises is wrong. But then he asked why the government hadn't looked at coming up with a workaround for the statistics.

    How would that have not also been a broken manifesto pledge?

    Yes, that's just head-of-a-pin stuff - ignore the wage-increase element or redefine the statistical analysis so that the wage-increase element is ignored.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.

    That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.

    That's a left-wing view.

    I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.

    But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.

    Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
    Time for you to go to the LDs
    Ta-ra.
    Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
    Let me stop you there

    I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives

    If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
    I've been out of the party ever since Boris decided to back Dom and his Bernard Castle lies. I returned my membership and cancelled my monthly donation. I haven't regretted it and now the Tories have lost me as a voter, probably for a very long time until a fiscally conservative, low tax Tory wins the leadership and rolls back all of these unnecessary taxes on working people.
    Even if the alternative plans to soften Brexit?
    Ultimately it is what it is at this stage, I can't vote for a party that puts up taxes on working people and exempts rich pensioners. I might just be able to live with it if everyone was paying as a "well it has to start at some point" policy but choosing NI means someone on a £20k salary is being hit with a tax rise and probable pay freeze while a pensioner with £40k in income will get a 2.5% rise in their state pension and not see any tax rises.
    I wouldn't agree, but I'd at least respect the honesty of a party that, say, wanted to whack up basic rate to 25% and top rate to a round 50% from 80k+ and use that to fund free tertiary education, free nursery childcare, extended school hours, excellent health and social care and more affordable housing etc.

    The difference is the higher tax burden would fall across all age groups, and be used to provide public services for all and at all ages.
    Basic rate tax is way higher than 25% already today. Indeed its absurdly high once you add it all up.

    Make it fair and consistent and we could have lower tax rates not higher ones, so long as everyone pays their share. But simply making everyone pay evenly would be an improvement.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    The European Commission has asked the ECJ to impose daily fines on Poland for undermining the independence of the judiciary.

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1435226866374385665

    Logically they'd ignore it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    Sturgeon seeking an independence referendum by 2023.

    Good luck to her.

    She can seek as much as she wants, she won't get one
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    https://twitter.com/Lucywwatson/status/1435006036805566468

    An issue that I would like to be solved - and I am sure it might be if our lot could be bothered to vote.

    Honestly if they don't vote in 2024, I might move to Switzerland

    You didn’t stay away long after your flounce yesterday 😂😂😂😂
    Don't be a twat he was obviously upset/angry.
    So why not just leave instead of announcing he was going. It’s ridiculous. Especially when he reappears in less than 24 hours.

    Oh, and no need to be rude either. I’ve never been rude to you or even exchanged a comment with you. Some people
    "Flounce" is rude. If you are going to start being rude then don't complain when people are rude.

    And as for his absence, when people are upset or angry they use rhetorical flourishes and right that's it I'm off is a perfectly understandable one.
    No, flounce isn’t rude, it’s a term used on online forums when someone leaves in such a manner.

    Still, if you want to subcontract offence and be abusive over a term in general use that’s your issue not mine.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Flounce
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    Ah ha. Clearer now. This is not using a tax rise to fix social care, it's using Covid as cover for a tax rise for the NHS, and pretending that the funds raised will also fix social care, thus getting Johnson off the hook of his promise on that score. Smoke and mirrors. There is no Social Care Plan, not really, it's going to have to wait a bit longer, probably until there's a Labour PM.

    This is just wrong. A social cap was recommended by the Dilnot Report as a key plank - indeed *the* key plank of social care reform, and with good reason.
    £50k, I believe. It's going to much higher than that but, ok, I guess you can just about call it "fixing social care" if you're Boris Johnson. Not sure anyone else would.

    I think the comments from Carlotta/FF43 up the thread are interesting. Is this in truth mainly about increasing the fiscal position with an eye on deficit reduction? - ie what they've actually done here is found the best way to sell a tax hike to the public. NI, not income tax, since it sounds more technical and targeted, and with the funds supposedly flagged for the NHS ("hurrah!") and Social Care (just like "Boris" promised!). In fact, all is fungible, so it's purely a game of presentation. You can't say these or those funds are for these or those purposes. It's just one big pie with the deficit as the completing piece. So, here, Sunak and the Treasury have got what they want. More tax revenue. That, in essence, is all that this is.

    I like that take.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?

    The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
    Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.

    The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
    It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
    Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
    I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.

    Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.

    How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
This discussion has been closed.