The idea that anyone (*) would not vote Conservative because of today's tax rises is absurd given that everyone with half a brain cell knows that if Labour win the next GE they will raise taxes by a massively greater amount.
This announcement is absolute chicken feed - as stated above £180 for someone earning £24k, £715 for anyone earning £67k.
It is not going to have any discernible effect on anyone's life.
(Though if you are lucky enough to get an operation quicker then it will have a discernible effect on your life).
(*) Other than ideological anoraks on PB.
Yes. The amount is a triviality, though I should have liked it distributed differently. It will raise about £12bn a year. We are currently borrowing £300bn. Dealing with this matter is the tough one.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
There is no inheritance tax at all in Switzerland nor any gift tax and it has health insurance
I know, I've lived there before.
So rather hypocritical of you to move there then given it has no inheritance tax at all unlike the UK and funds its health service fully via insurance not an estate tax
Therese Coffey in Commons confirms breaking the triple lock after surge in wages, which would have qualified pensioners for a 8% hike in pensions. Will save Treasury £4bn. Another manifesto promise broken
72. The Levy will operate UK-wide, ensuring that health and social care in all parts of the UK benefit from significant additional support. There will be a legal requirement to allocate the Levy revenues for spending on health and social care.
74. Receipts from the 2022-23 increase will go to the NHS or equivalent in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as with the current NHS NICs allocation. From April 2023, receipts from the Levy will go to those responsible for health and social care in the devolved administrations, including NHS Scotland, NHS Wales and Health and Social Care (HSC) in Northern Ireland.
Obvious question - if the Scottish Government can meet the same care obligations for less than the amount of new funds raised and passed on to them, can they re-direct some existing funding elsewhere?
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
There is no inheritance tax at all in Switzerland nor any gift tax and it has health insurance
Therese Coffey in Commons confirms breaking the triple lock after surge in wages, which would have qualified pensioners for a 8% hike in pensions. Will save Treasury £4bn. Another manifesto promise broken
Sturgeon seeking an independence referendum by 2023.
Good luck to her.
If she is lucky she might not get one, and be able to blame Boris.
If she is fairly unlucky Boris will give her a referendum and she will lose.
If her luck totally runs out Boris will give her a referendum and she will win. At which point Kyrie eleison. (I would put that as a less than 5% chance between now and 2030).
It might be tempting to Boris to give Ref2 at a time of his choosing just for laughs, but I think he will look at Cameron and 2016 and decide not.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
Well I've always got the Swiss option (and I don't mean dignitas!), it's something I've been thinking about since the end of last year and feeling a lot more realistic. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a country that shits on workers to protect rich old people and their rich children's inheritance.
There is no inheritance tax at all in Switzerland nor any gift tax and it has health insurance
I know, I've lived there before.
So rather hypocritical of you to move there then if you want more wealth taxes given it has no inheritance tax at all unlike the UK and funds its health service fully via insurance not an estate tax
Where have I ever been against insurance? I actually liked the suggestion from the other day that proposed an actual all ages insurance scheme for social care like driving insurance. Again, as long as everyone pays I could just about get on board with it. The issue here is of intergenerational unfairness, working people are being taxed while retirees with pension income aren't and they are the primary beneficiaries of increased health and social care expenditure.
I'd be fully on board with dissolving the NHS and moving to a Swiss style insurance based system. My healthcare in Switzerland was amazing and worked out to much less than I pay in tax.
I've read the proposals. Though I would have favoured an increase in income tax (combined with higher rates for over 65s) I have to hand it to them - this has been thought through and presented rather well as far as I can see. I'm particularly pleased that they have extended the 1.25% NI levy to higher rate payers.
I've been away this morning so have missed the debates and the chatter on here, maybe some of the questions below have been addressed? Any help much appreciated:
1) Has there been an announcement regarding the triple lock?
2) The upper capital limit of £100k will exclude the house when the oldie stays living in it, but the document does not cover the instance of the person going into a care home with the spouse remaining in the house. Under current rules the house would be totally disregarded, will this disregard remain or will half the house become means testable?
3) Once the £86k cap is reached the local Authority is on the hook for all the costs. This will lead to the authorities recommending the cheapest possible homes in the knowledge that the old person/relatives will in many cases (perhaps most cases) want to pay to upgrade to a better solution. These upgrades will not count towards the £86k cap. I believe that this in effect makes the £86k cap misleading.
4) The 1.25% levy will also apply to over 65s still in employment. Two points on this: firstly this will incentivise people to defer the state pension until they cease work and secondly it is not clear in the document whether the working over 65s will only be liable for the levy or whether they will be brought fully into the NI regime.
5) The new system doesn't come in until Oct 23 - what of those already in homes who have already contributed large sums. Will these sums count towards the new cap?
6) The document only covers the additional spending on NHS and social care- what of Covid costs? There will be further tax rises to come for this surely? Wasn't this to be discussed today as well as health?
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
Ha ha, you got your knickers in a knot over a term that’s in common use. Mate, you’re funny.
I’m sure CHB appreciates your white knighting but I’ve got better things to do than engage with someone who gets angry about terms they don’t understand the meaning of.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
If X% is trivial it won't help funding; if it is high it will create some sort of 'sale and leaseback' market for expensive properties as well as lots of early giving away. The main beneficiaries would be lawyers and accountants. It would cheer up farmers no end to be paying wealth tax on their farms too.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
One curveball suggestion is to do such a tax but to give property owners an option - they can pay the tax in full annually, or they can defer it indefinitely and allow that percentage to be attached to the property for when it next changes hands (like equity release).
So a property owner could either pay 0.2% annually, or eg go 40 years never paying Council Tax but when the house is eventually sold the accrued tax 8% of the sale price - with Central Government accruing for and reconciling such against national debts etc
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
One curveball suggestion is to do such a tax but to give property owners an option - they can pay the tax in full annually, or they can defer it indefinitely and allow that percentage to be attached to the property for when it next changes hands (like equity release).
So a property owner could either pay 0.2% annually, or eg go 40 years never paying Council Tax but when the house is eventually sold the accrued tax 8% of the sale price - with Central Government accruing for and reconciling such against national debts etc
By curveball, you mean, exactly what the LibDems suggested when they first put the idea of a mansion tax into the public arena?
Personally I’d add a sensible interest rate to the deferred payments, just to provide incentive to pay promptly for those that can.
Ha ha, you got your knickers in a knot over a term that’s in common use. Mate, you’re funny.
I’m sure CHB appreciates your white knighting but I’ve got better things to do than engage with someone who gets angry about terms they don’t understand the meaning of.
Have a nice day.
If you weren't being rude, why did you include the line of emojis - which I note you fail to mention in your apologia ?
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
One curveball suggestion is to do such a tax but to give property owners an option - they can pay the tax in full annually, or they can defer it indefinitely and allow that percentage to be attached to the property for when it next changes hands (like equity release).
So a property owner could either pay 0.2% annually, or eg go 40 years never paying Council Tax but when the house is eventually sold the accrued tax 8% of the sale price - with Central Government accruing for and reconciling such against national debts etc
By curveball, you mean, exactly what the LibDems suggested when they first put the idea of a mansion tax into the public arena?
Personally I’d add a sensible interest rate to the deferred payments, just to provide incentive to pay promptly for those that can.
I didn't know they'd proposed that.
If you do it as equity release there'd be no need to do a sensible interest rate, as equity release is traditionally a non-sensible interest rate. It'd raise much more money if people didn't pay promptly.
Ha ha, you got your knickers in a knot over a term that’s in common use. Mate, you’re funny.
I’m sure CHB appreciates your white knighting but I’ve got better things to do than engage with someone who gets angry about terms they don’t understand the meaning of.
Have a nice day.
That's a long post from someone who is not engaging with me.
Ha ha, you got your knickers in a knot over a term that’s in common use. Mate, you’re funny.
I’m sure CHB appreciates your white knighting but I’ve got better things to do than engage with someone who gets angry about terms they don’t understand the meaning of.
Have a nice day.
If you weren't being rude, why did you include the line of emojis - which I note you fail to mention in your apologia ?
No need to reply.
Have a nice day.
Because it was amusing and such incidents in groups like that are amusing. 👍
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
One curveball suggestion is to do such a tax but to give property owners an option - they can pay the tax in full annually, or they can defer it indefinitely and allow that percentage to be attached to the property for when it next changes hands (like equity release).
So a property owner could either pay 0.2% annually, or eg go 40 years never paying Council Tax but when the house is eventually sold the accrued tax 8% of the sale price - with Central Government accruing for and reconciling such against national debts etc
That's not so much a curveball suggestion but essential for the scheme to be implemented because some people will be asset rich and cash poor.
But it couldn't be a percentage of the sale price, as the money is needed now it would be £x with interest added on top.
Ha ha, you got your knickers in a knot over a term that’s in common use. Mate, you’re funny.
I’m sure CHB appreciates your white knighting but I’ve got better things to do than engage with someone who gets angry about terms they don’t understand the meaning of.
Have a nice day.
If you weren't being rude, why did you include the line of emojis - which I note you fail to mention in your apologia ?
No need to reply.
Have a nice day.
Because it was amusing and such incidents in groups like that are amusing. 👍
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
Isn't a problem with this that the 'value' of properties is pretty unknown, given the lamentable failure to reassess properties for council tax purposes? In England, the values are based on ?April 1991? for old properties. Lots have been renovated / extended since then ...
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
Would this be personal property. Would it include business property. Would it include property owned by overseas investors.
Ha ha, you got your knickers in a knot over a term that’s in common use. Mate, you’re funny.
I’m sure CHB appreciates your white knighting but I’ve got better things to do than engage with someone who gets angry about terms they don’t understand the meaning of.
Have a nice day.
If you weren't being rude, why did you include the line of emojis - which I note you fail to mention in your apologia ?
No need to reply.
Have a nice day.
Because it was amusing and such incidents in groups like that are amusing. 👍
I've read the proposals. Though I would have favoured an increase in income tax (combined with higher rates for over 65s) I have to hand it to them - this has been thought through and presented rather well as far as I can see. I'm particularly pleased that they have extended the 1.25% NI levy to higher rate payers...
Can't really answer your questions, though if in doubt, I'd assume they'd continue with current practice (eg on whether general NI will be levied on working pensioners - it won't). One big hole on the policy (as opposed to taxation) side of this is the scant regard given to integration of social care with healthcare - though I note lipservice is paid to this (again, Burnham* seemed to take this seriously in his ideas). The other is burdens on LAs - lots of kind words from government, but very little in the way of hard cash or commitments.
*Don't want to sound like too much of a fan, because I'm not really, but he was head and shoulders above the rest of Labour today.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
One curveball suggestion is to do such a tax but to give property owners an option - they can pay the tax in full annually, or they can defer it indefinitely and allow that percentage to be attached to the property for when it next changes hands (like equity release).
So a property owner could either pay 0.2% annually, or eg go 40 years never paying Council Tax but when the house is eventually sold the accrued tax 8% of the sale price - with Central Government accruing for and reconciling such against national debts etc
That's not so much a curveball suggestion but essential for the scheme to be implemented because some people will be asset rich and cash poor.
But it couldn't be a percentage of the sale price, as the money is needed now it would be £x with interest added on top.
Unless the housing market goes dramatically into reverse in a way we've never really seen, £x with interest would be less than the sale price.
Unless people exploit and dodge the tax using fake sales prices. But there's already ways to combat that.
Therese Coffey in Commons confirms breaking the triple lock after surge in wages, which would have qualified pensioners for a 8% hike in pensions. Will save Treasury £4bn. Another manifesto promise broken
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
One curveball suggestion is to do such a tax but to give property owners an option - they can pay the tax in full annually, or they can defer it indefinitely and allow that percentage to be attached to the property for when it next changes hands (like equity release).
So a property owner could either pay 0.2% annually, or eg go 40 years never paying Council Tax but when the house is eventually sold the accrued tax 8% of the sale price - with Central Government accruing for and reconciling such against national debts etc
By curveball, you mean, exactly what the LibDems suggested when they first put the idea of a mansion tax into the public arena?
Personally I’d add a sensible interest rate to the deferred payments, just to provide incentive to pay promptly for those that can.
I didn't know they'd proposed that.
If you do it as equity release there'd be no need to do a sensible interest rate, as equity release is traditionally a non-sensible interest rate. It'd raise much more money if people didn't pay promptly.
It's the compound interest on Equity release that results in the huge amounts down the line.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
One curveball suggestion is to do such a tax but to give property owners an option - they can pay the tax in full annually, or they can defer it indefinitely and allow that percentage to be attached to the property for when it next changes hands (like equity release).
So a property owner could either pay 0.2% annually, or eg go 40 years never paying Council Tax but when the house is eventually sold the accrued tax 8% of the sale price - with Central Government accruing for and reconciling such against national debts etc
By curveball, you mean, exactly what the LibDems suggested when they first put the idea of a mansion tax into the public arena?
Personally I’d add a sensible interest rate to the deferred payments, just to provide incentive to pay promptly for those that can.
I didn't know they'd proposed that.
If you do it as equity release there'd be no need to do a sensible interest rate, as equity release is traditionally a non-sensible interest rate. It'd raise much more money if people didn't pay promptly.
It's the compound interest on Equity release that results in the huge amounts down the line.
Oh not my area of expertise, I thought they literally took a slice of the equity.
And equity typically grows much, much faster than even compound interest.
Best to get as much bad news out in the same day, and that is excellent politics.
Don't be surprised if the Conservatives aren't up in the next set of polls. Social care and funding the NHS are popular. Don't you remember voting for it when you saw it on the side of a bus?
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
Would this be personal property. Would it include business property. Would it include property owned by overseas investors.
I mentioned earlier that I focus on asset types - so this would be on all residential property including BTL and holiday homes.
And paid for by the house owner not the tenant.
The one exception to this would be build to let complexes which are already explicitly excluded from stamp duty surcharges as they are unlikely to ever enter into the residential for sale property market.
Nick Macpherson @nickmacpherson2 · 3h Over my adult life the national insurance rate has more than doubled from 5.75% to 12% and is set to go higher today. Over the same period the basic rate of income tax has fallen from 34% to 20%. That tells you a lot about the politics of taxation.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
One curveball suggestion is to do such a tax but to give property owners an option - they can pay the tax in full annually, or they can defer it indefinitely and allow that percentage to be attached to the property for when it next changes hands (like equity release).
So a property owner could either pay 0.2% annually, or eg go 40 years never paying Council Tax but when the house is eventually sold the accrued tax 8% of the sale price - with Central Government accruing for and reconciling such against national debts etc
By curveball, you mean, exactly what the LibDems suggested when they first put the idea of a mansion tax into the public arena?
Personally I’d add a sensible interest rate to the deferred payments, just to provide incentive to pay promptly for those that can.
I didn't know they'd proposed that.
If you do it as equity release there'd be no need to do a sensible interest rate, as equity release is traditionally a non-sensible interest rate. It'd raise much more money if people didn't pay promptly.
It's the compound interest on Equity release that results in the huge amounts down the line.
But weren’t many of the earlier iterations on higher interests rates, around 6%.
Nick Macpherson @nickmacpherson2 · 3h Over my adult life the national insurance rate has more than doubled from 5.75% to 12% and is set to go higher today. Over the same period the basic rate of income tax has fallen from 34% to 20%. That tells you a lot about the politics of taxation.
For graduates taxation is considerably higher now than it was then despite the lower headline figure.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
Would this be personal property. Would it include business property. Would it include property owned by overseas investors.
I mentioned earlier that I focus on asset types - so this would be on all residential property including BTL and holiday homes.
And paid for by the house owner not the tenant.
On the face of it that is fair. You’d have to be able to stop businesses who own the residential property redefining it or ducking the charge.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
Would this be personal property. Would it include business property. Would it include property owned by overseas investors.
I mentioned earlier that I focus on asset types - so this would be on all residential property including BTL and holiday homes.
And paid for by the house owner not the tenant.
On the face of it that is fair. You’d have to be able to stop businesses who own the residential property redefining it or ducking the charge.
How do you redefine a house as something else - that would change of use planning permission which would be a simple trigger to confirm...
I've read the proposals. Though I would have favoured an increase in income tax (combined with higher rates for over 65s) I have to hand it to them - this has been thought through and presented rather well as far as I can see. I'm particularly pleased that they have extended the 1.25% NI levy to higher rate payers.
I've been away this morning so have missed the debates and the chatter on here, maybe some of the questions below have been addressed? Any help much appreciated:
1) Has there been an announcement regarding the triple lock?
2) The upper capital limit of £100k will exclude the house when the oldie stays living in it, but the document does not cover the instance of the person going into a care home with the spouse remaining in the house. Under current rules the house would be totally disregarded, will this disregard remain or will half the house become means testable?
3) Once the £86k cap is reached the local Authority is on the hook for all the costs. This will lead to the authorities recommending the cheapest possible homes in the knowledge that the old person/relatives will in many cases (perhaps most cases) want to pay to upgrade to a better solution. These upgrades will not count towards the £86k cap. I believe that this in effect makes the £86k cap misleading.
4) The 1.25% levy will also apply to over 65s still in employment. Two points on this: firstly this will incentivise people to defer the state pension until they cease work and secondly it is not clear in the document whether the working over 65s will only be liable for the levy or whether they will be brought fully into the NI regime.
5) The new system doesn't come in until Oct 23 - what of those already in homes who have already contributed large sums. Will these sums count towards the new cap?
6) The document only covers the additional spending on NHS and social care- what of Covid costs? There will be further tax rises to come for this surely? Wasn't this to be discussed today as well as health?
Those are rather good questions, straight off the bat.
Fortunately for Boris, there is no-one of your calibre on the Opposition benches, or amongst the cadres of political journalists.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
Would this be personal property. Would it include business property. Would it include property owned by overseas investors.
I mentioned earlier that I focus on asset types - so this would be on all residential property including BTL and holiday homes.
And paid for by the house owner not the tenant.
On the face of it that is fair. You’d have to be able to stop businesses who own the residential property redefining it or ducking the charge.
National Non Domestic Rates (aka business rates) tend to be higher than Council Tax, as far as I am aware.
72. The Levy will operate UK-wide, ensuring that health and social care in all parts of the UK benefit from significant additional support. There will be a legal requirement to allocate the Levy revenues for spending on health and social care.
74. Receipts from the 2022-23 increase will go to the NHS or equivalent in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as with the current NHS NICs allocation. From April 2023, receipts from the Levy will go to those responsible for health and social care in the devolved administrations, including NHS Scotland, NHS Wales and Health and Social Care (HSC) in Northern Ireland.
Obvious question - if the Scottish Government can meet the same care obligations for less than the amount of new funds raised and passed on to them, can they re-direct some existing funding elsewhere?
Is existing funding ring fenced for particular purposes - if not, then absolutely. Also note, the new funds are ring fenced, not hypothecated.
Nick Macpherson @nickmacpherson2 · 3h Over my adult life the national insurance rate has more than doubled from 5.75% to 12% and is set to go higher today. Over the same period the basic rate of income tax has fallen from 34% to 20%. That tells you a lot about the politics of taxation.
For graduates taxation is considerably higher now than it was then despite the lower headline figure.
Being pedantic.
That's a loan repayment not taxation (Yes I know it's a tax in all but name for most people who will never earn enough to pay the debt off).
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
Would this be personal property. Would it include business property. Would it include property owned by overseas investors.
I mentioned earlier that I focus on asset types - so this would be on all residential property including BTL and holiday homes.
And paid for by the house owner not the tenant.
On the face of it that is fair. You’d have to be able to stop businesses who own the residential property redefining it or ducking the charge.
National Non Domestic Rates (aka business rates) tend to be higher than Council Tax, as far as I am aware.
Except they also have a small business exemption that means most holiday lets end up paying nothing (great deal / nice work if you can pull it off).
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
Easiest way is to let local authorities raise council tax. Politically useful too, as many of them are run by the national opposition parties.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
Would this be personal property. Would it include business property. Would it include property owned by overseas investors.
I mentioned earlier that I focus on asset types - so this would be on all residential property including BTL and holiday homes.
And paid for by the house owner not the tenant.
On the face of it that is fair. You’d have to be able to stop businesses who own the residential property redefining it or ducking the charge.
National Non Domestic Rates (aka business rates) tend to be higher than Council Tax, as far as I am aware.
Does that apply to properties bought as holiday lets too ?
Nick Macpherson @nickmacpherson2 · 3h Over my adult life the national insurance rate has more than doubled from 5.75% to 12% and is set to go higher today. Over the same period the basic rate of income tax has fallen from 34% to 20%. That tells you a lot about the politics of taxation.
For graduates taxation is considerably higher now than it was then despite the lower headline figure.
Being pedantic.
That's a loan repayment not taxation (Yes I know it's a tax in all but name for most people who will never earn enough to pay the debt off).
Sure but many people will be paying that "tax" for 30 years.
Nick Macpherson @nickmacpherson2 · 3h Over my adult life the national insurance rate has more than doubled from 5.75% to 12% and is set to go higher today. Over the same period the basic rate of income tax has fallen from 34% to 20%. That tells you a lot about the politics of taxation.
For graduates taxation is considerably higher now than it was then despite the lower headline figure.
Being pedantic.
That's a loan repayment not taxation (Yes I know it's a tax in all but name for most people who will never earn enough to pay the debt off).
In which case it is a capped tax. With a complicated cap.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
X% of the value of your property - where X depends on whether it replaces council tax or just the social care precept.
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
Would this be personal property. Would it include business property. Would it include property owned by overseas investors.
I mentioned earlier that I focus on asset types - so this would be on all residential property including BTL and holiday homes.
And paid for by the house owner not the tenant.
On the face of it that is fair. You’d have to be able to stop businesses who own the residential property redefining it or ducking the charge.
National Non Domestic Rates (aka business rates) tend to be higher than Council Tax, as far as I am aware.
Does that apply to properties bought as holiday lets too ?
Yep but as I've stated before the non domestics rates will be so low that small business exemption will probably knock it down to £0.
Which is why there are now multiple rules as to what qualifies as a holiday let for tax purposes.
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
Easiest way is to let local authorities raise council tax. Politically useful too, as many of them are run by the national opposition parties.
Problem with that is that council tax bands are now 30 years out of date and prices in some areas bear zero resemblance to other areas.
That's why I like living up North, I don't have a mortgage so I'm £2k a month better off than people down south.
Best to get as much bad news out in the same day, and that is excellent politics.
Don't be surprised if the Conservatives aren't up in the next set of polls. Social care and funding the NHS are popular. Don't you remember voting for it when you saw it on the side of a bus?
Absolutely. This has been a triumphant day for Boris and the Conservatives.
What we have is a Primeminister not afraid to take on the big questions of the day. Whilst Labour merrily prevaricated and fudged creating the care scandal, the Conservatives are sorting it once and for all.
What do you think was the Scandal then? It’s a scandal people have to sell their homes to pay for residential care? Or Expanding the state further to protect private assets has got to be the wrong thing to do. The status quo and the solution can’t both be scandalous?
It’s the Conservatives who have saved the NHS and Not just funded social care, but made it fair.
They have shot Labours fox, and Starmer hopeless at stopping them.
Would be interesting to set up a poll on this website. How did you vote in 2010/15/16/17/19? And then what is your current voting preference. I know we don't get to 1000 and a statistically valid sample and we are a self selecting group. But would be telling none the less.
Nick Macpherson @nickmacpherson2 · 3h Over my adult life the national insurance rate has more than doubled from 5.75% to 12% and is set to go higher today. Over the same period the basic rate of income tax has fallen from 34% to 20%. That tells you a lot about the politics of taxation.
LOUIS XIV’S FINANCE minister, Jean-Baptiste Colbert, famously declared that “the art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing.”
Best to get as much bad news out in the same day, and that is excellent politics.
Don't be surprised if the Conservatives aren't up in the next set of polls. Social care and funding the NHS are popular. Don't you remember voting for it when you saw it on the side of a bus?
Absolutely. This has been a triumphant day for Boris and the Conservatives.
What we have is a Primeminister not afraid to take on the big questions of the day. Whilst Labour merrily prevaricated and fudged creating the care scandal, the Conservatives are sorting it once and for all.
What do you think was the Scandal then? It’s a scandal people have to sell their homes to pay for residential care? Or Expanding the state further to protect private assets has got to be the wrong thing to do. The status quo and the solution can’t both be scandalous?
It’s the Conservatives who have saved the NHS and Not just funded social care, but made it fair.
They have shot Labours fox, and Starmer hopeless at stopping them.
To be honest Starmer seemed very deflated and Labour only have themselves to blame by having a total void on this policy and much everything else
Q: do we have as many Conservative supporters on here now as we did at 8am this morning?
The Tories have picked up support from people who will never vote Tory and lost CR, myself and Philip Thompson at least.
Better late than never. Problem as a political orphan is, that Lab you must be kidding while their reform is a work in progress and apart from sandals and tofu I'm not sure what the LibDems are for.
The Cons will likely win in 2024 by default.
It's been coming for a while. On almost every issue I've found myself disagreeing with the party. Now it's become a tax and spend nightmare. I'll just have to hope that Labour will look at some alternatives to taxing working people.
Lab have been given the green light to tax like bastards. Working people beware. Especially City type working people.
I suspect Labour are keeping quiet for a reason - when your enemy is making mistakes it's often wise to let them do it.
Were I Labour my manifesto would contain a wealth tax replacing the health and social tax levy - but I wouldn't be announcing it now, just prepping to ensure all possible attack angles have clear cut responses ready for the day it's announced.
How would a wealth tax work though when the consensus seems it is hard to enforce.
Easiest way is to let local authorities raise council tax. Politically useful too, as many of them are run by the national opposition parties.
Problem with that is that council tax bands are now 30 years out of date and prices in some areas bear zero resemblance to other areas.
That's why I like living up North, I don't have a mortgage so I'm £2k a month better off than people down south.
It’s precisely because of the massive property price discrepancies between areas, that a local solution to property taxation works best.
Anything you do based on a national scale of property prices, quickly descends into a north v south debate - as we see today.
Best to get as much bad news out in the same day, and that is excellent politics.
Don't be surprised if the Conservatives aren't up in the next set of polls. Social care and funding the NHS are popular. Don't you remember voting for it when you saw it on the side of a bus?
Absolutely. This has been a triumphant day for Boris and the Conservatives.
What we have is a Primeminister not afraid to take on the big questions of the day. Whilst Labour merrily prevaricated and fudged creating the care scandal, the Conservatives are sorting it once and for all.
What do you think was the Scandal then? It’s a scandal people have to sell their homes to pay for residential care? Or Expanding the state further to protect private assets has got to be the wrong thing to do. The status quo and the solution can’t both be scandalous?
It’s the Conservatives who have saved the NHS and Not just funded social care, but made it fair.
They have shot Labours fox, and Starmer hopeless at stopping them.
To be honest Starmer seemed very deflated and Labour only have themselves to blame by having a total void on this policy and much everything else
Absolutely. Polls will show voters love governments getting on sorting things once and for all and taking all the unfairness and crisis away. Boris has shot Starmers fox.
Nick Macpherson @nickmacpherson2 · 3h Over my adult life the national insurance rate has more than doubled from 5.75% to 12% and is set to go higher today. Over the same period the basic rate of income tax has fallen from 34% to 20%. That tells you a lot about the politics of taxation.
LOUIS XIV’S FINANCE minister, Jean-Baptiste Colbert, famously declared that “the art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing.”
(The opening of an Economist article in 2014)
Except it's not true. The taxation system's primary purpose in 2021 should be to discourage activities you want less of and encourage activities you want more of. The "paying" for things argument is arguably a bit of a relic given governments / central banks everywhere appear content to just monetise deficits.
Things we want more of: people working (including over 66 year olds that feel they have more to give). Things we want less of: rent seeking.
And yet this shower of a Cabinet apparently vote through the opposite in under an hour. Including the supposed golden boy Rishi. What a disappointment he's turned out to be.
The Conservative Party has become ideologically bankrupt and now cares only about pandering to the section of the voter base that allow them to keep troughing as long as possible. Time for a new broom. Lib Dems aren't going to win the election are they. So it will be a vote for Labour for me, or potentially a tactical vote for the Lib Dems given my seat is highly unlikely to turn Red. But the goal will be clear. Turf out these jokers, trust that Labour don't do too much damage and hope sanity returns to the Conservative party in time for the election afterwards.
What's always been odd to me is the way people bang on about the NHS as being some amazing service that isn't replicated anywhere in the world. I've lived overseas and my experience in Switzerland was far, far better than anything I've had here with the NHS. It has become completely impervious to criticism and therefore impossible to reform, all it is now is a money black hole which will continue to take a greater and greater share of national income while providing lesser and lesser service for the substantial grants it receives.
All over Europe healthcare is universally available and everywhere I've been has been hugely better than the NHS and the people are significantly healthier because there doesn't exist and attitude of "well who cares if I get sick, the NHS will fix it for me". I see a lot less of that from my European friends as compared to the general British attitude towards their own health.
What's always been odd to me is the way people bang on about the NHS as being some amazing service that isn't replicated anywhere in the world. I've lived overseas and my experience in Switzerland was far, far better than anything I've had here with the NHS. It has become completely impervious to criticism and therefore impossible to reform, all it is now is a money black hole which will continue to take a greater and greater share of national income while providing lesser and lesser service for the substantial grants it receives.
All over Europe healthcare is universally available and everywhere I've been has been hugely better than the NHS and the people are significantly healthier because there doesn't exist and attitude of "well who cares if I get sick, the NHS will fix it for me". I see a lot less of that from my European friends as compared to the general British attitude towards their own health.
This is spot on. We should be ashamed that the NHS has become a religion as like all religions nothing is allowed to be challenged!
If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.
That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.
That's a left-wing view.
I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.
But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.
Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
Time for you to go to the LDs
Ta-ra.
Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
Let me stop you there
I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives
If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
They both want to repeat May's disastrous dementia tax or raise inheritance tax or impose a wealth tax to avoid a mere less than 1.5% rise in NI for the NHS and social care, on that basis Sir Ed Davey is welcome to them!
How do you describe the difference between the Boris plan and May plan making it so much easy to sell on doorstep?
What's always been odd to me is the way people bang on about the NHS as being some amazing service that isn't replicated anywhere in the world. I've lived overseas and my experience in Switzerland was far, far better than anything I've had here with the NHS. It has become completely impervious to criticism and therefore impossible to reform, all it is now is a money black hole which will continue to take a greater and greater share of national income while providing lesser and lesser service for the substantial grants it receives.
All over Europe healthcare is universally available and everywhere I've been has been hugely better than the NHS and the people are significantly healthier because there doesn't exist and attitude of "well who cares if I get sick, the NHS will fix it for me". I see a lot less of that from my European friends as compared to the general British attitude towards their own health.
I don’t know anyone who’s ever lived abroad in a developed country, who thinks much of the NHS at all. Pretty much every other system is better. The other anomaly is the USA, for completely the opposite reasons.
Best to get as much bad news out in the same day, and that is excellent politics.
Don't be surprised if the Conservatives aren't up in the next set of polls. Social care and funding the NHS are popular. Don't you remember voting for it when you saw it on the side of a bus?
Absolutely. This has been a triumphant day for Boris and the Conservatives.
What we have is a Primeminister not afraid to take on the big questions of the day. Whilst Labour merrily prevaricated and fudged creating the care scandal, the Conservatives are sorting it once and for all.
What do you think was the Scandal then? It’s a scandal people have to sell their homes to pay for residential care? Or Expanding the state further to protect private assets has got to be the wrong thing to do. The status quo and the solution can’t both be scandalous?
It’s the Conservatives who have saved the NHS and Not just funded social care, but made it fair.
They have shot Labours fox, and Starmer hopeless at stopping them.
To be honest Starmer seemed very deflated and Labour only have themselves to blame by having a total void on this policy and much everything else
Absolutely. Polls will show voters love governments getting on sorting things once and for all and taking all the unfairness and crisis away. Boris has shot Starmers fox.
Starmer still has who can use which toilets though.....
What's always been odd to me is the way people bang on about the NHS as being some amazing service that isn't replicated anywhere in the world. I've lived overseas and my experience in Switzerland was far, far better than anything I've had here with the NHS. It has become completely impervious to criticism and therefore impossible to reform, all it is now is a money black hole which will continue to take a greater and greater share of national income while providing lesser and lesser service for the substantial grants it receives.
All over Europe healthcare is universally available and everywhere I've been has been hugely better than the NHS and the people are significantly healthier because there doesn't exist and attitude of "well who cares if I get sick, the NHS will fix it for me". I see a lot less of that from my European friends as compared to the general British attitude towards their own health.
If you want to spend Swiss levels og public money on healthcare then go for it.
The thing that makes the NHS so amazing is how incredibly cheap it is.
To get to swiss levels you are proposing a 20% increase to the NHS budget.
Boris announced the social care NI hike and Theresa Coffee the 2022/23 suspension of the triple lock.
Human shields 😆
That's partly my point - Sunak has got Boris to announce the largest tax rise in years for him.
Maybe it’s accepted behind scenes that if they want to hold onto Downing Street it’s Rishi, the most popular, and wildly popular politician in this country, who will lead them into it.
If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.
That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.
That's a left-wing view.
I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.
But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.
Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
Time for you to go to the LDs
At least Philip has some principles, a lot more than you it seems - and I have a great deal of respect for your posts.
Pointless principle. Its got to.be paid for somehow. Govts break manifesto pledges all the time.
Why is a principle that tax should be fair, low and equitable "pointless"?
Running a deficit would be better than putting up a jobs tax while trying to come out of a recession.
But if you're going to put up taxes, why only jobs and not unearned incomes?
You don't like taxes that affect you more than others... NI does that in every facet from those who don't pay anything to the high earners who pay a lot more..
I pay council tax most of which goes to.pay for educating other peoples kids.. i dont like it either
The triple lock is not scrapped, merely suspended.
Not announced by any of the big guns, because it’s not a major thing.
Tory’s HATE pensioners.
It was announced by Theresa Coffey as Secretary of State for pensions and welfare
Boris rocks at politics
The self named "grown ups" don't have a clue.
People expecting a fall in Boris's lead over the useless nonentity party after today will be sorely disappointed imo
Yep. As I posted months ago a populist government, dislodged from ideology and principle, can seek and mirror majority opinion, ignorant though it often is, and when accompanied by a charismatic leader is almost impossible to dislodge from power. We could be looking at four Johnson terms.
I'm already balls-deep in 2024+ Johnson leaving date but have topped up again at 1.74 and laid his leaving in 2022 at 6.2.
If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.
That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.
That's a left-wing view.
I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.
But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.
Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
Time for you to go to the LDs
Ta-ra.
Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
Let me stop you there
I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives
If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
They both want to repeat May's disastrous dementia tax or raise inheritance tax or impose a wealth tax to avoid a mere less than 1.5% rise in NI for the NHS and social care, on that basis Sir Ed Davey is welcome to them!
How do you describe the difference between the Boris plan and May plan making it so much easy to sell on doorstep?
Boris didn't unveil his plan during an election campaign..... Genius.
Best to get as much bad news out in the same day, and that is excellent politics.
Don't be surprised if the Conservatives aren't up in the next set of polls. Social care and funding the NHS are popular. Don't you remember voting for it when you saw it on the side of a bus?
Absolutely. This has been a triumphant day for Boris and the Conservatives.
What we have is a Primeminister not afraid to take on the big questions of the day. Whilst Labour merrily prevaricated and fudged creating the care scandal, the Conservatives are sorting it once and for all.
What do you think was the Scandal then? It’s a scandal people have to sell their homes to pay for residential care? Or Expanding the state further to protect private assets has got to be the wrong thing to do. The status quo and the solution can’t both be scandalous?
It’s the Conservatives who have saved the NHS and Not just funded social care, but made it fair.
They have shot Labours fox, and Starmer hopeless at stopping them.
To be honest Starmer seemed very deflated and Labour only have themselves to blame by having a total void on this policy and much everything else
Absolutely. Polls will show voters love governments getting on sorting things once and for all and taking all the unfairness and crisis away. Boris has shot Starmers fox.
Always worth remembering that tax and spend announcements that are treated as issue-settling and fox-shooting on the day have a habit of unravelling quite spectacularly. What is clear is that the tax rise announced today does not actually come with a plan. There is nothing much there except less take home pay for a lot of people who are soon to lose the UC uplift and have their energy bills go up. They will need to see results if they are to be convinced any problems have been solved.
Meanwhile, it looks as if Labour is moving towards wealth taxes.
Boris announced the social care NI hike and Theresa Coffee the 2022/23 suspension of the triple lock.
Human shields 😆
That's partly my point - Sunak has got Boris to announce the largest tax rise in years for him.
Maybe it’s accepted behind scenes that if they want to hold onto Downing Street it’s Rishi, the most popular, and wildly popular politician in this country, who will lead them into it.
On the other hand, Mr Johnson has pointedly left it to the next Westminster Pmt to do anything very much about social care, given that 'three years'. Which may or may not imply something about his own plans.
If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.
That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.
That's a left-wing view.
I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.
But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.
Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
Time for you to go to the LDs
At least Philip has some principles, a lot more than you it seems - and I have a great deal of respect for your posts.
Pointless principle. Its got to.be paid for somehow. Govts break manifesto pledges all the time.
Why is a principle that tax should be fair, low and equitable "pointless"?
Running a deficit would be better than putting up a jobs tax while trying to come out of a recession.
But if you're going to put up taxes, why only jobs and not unearned incomes?
You don't like taxes that affect you more than others... NI does that in every facet from those who don't pay anything to the high earners who pay a lot more..
I pay council tax most of which goes to.pay for educating other peoples kids.. i dont like it either
Um, it actually doesn't - schools are paid for by the Department of Education in England - via block grants to councils if still under their control.
Council tax pays for social care, bins, libraries and planning plus anything else the council wishes to spend money on (if it's down south so has money left over).
My most recent experience of the NHS was pretty good, in and out of A&E in about 5 hrs which included an emergency CT scan (All good) for my other half after a concussion.
If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.
That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.
That's a left-wing view.
I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.
But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.
Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
Time for you to go to the LDs
At least Philip has some principles, a lot more than you it seems - and I have a great deal of respect for your posts.
Pointless principle. Its got to.be paid for somehow. Govts break manifesto pledges all the time.
Why is a principle that tax should be fair, low and equitable "pointless"?
Running a deficit would be better than putting up a jobs tax while trying to come out of a recession.
But if you're going to put up taxes, why only jobs and not unearned incomes?
You don't like taxes that affect you more than others... NI does that in every facet from those who don't pay anything to the high earners who pay a lot more..
I pay council tax most of which goes to.pay for educating other peoples kids.. i dont like it either
I pay council tax most of which goes to.pay for educating other peoples kids.. i dont like it either
Boris announced the social care NI hike and Theresa Coffee the 2022/23 suspension of the triple lock.
Human shields 😆
That's partly my point - Sunak has got Boris to announce the largest tax rise in years for him.
Maybe it’s accepted behind scenes that if they want to hold onto Downing Street it’s Rishi, the most popular, and wildly popular politician in this country, who will lead them into it.
On the other hand, Mr Johnson has pointedly left it to the next Westminster Pmt to do anything very much about social care, given that 'three years'. Which may or may not imply something about his own plans.
3 years moves it to after the next election, in a way that might stop it becoming an election issue.
The one thing you have to say about Boris is that he is usually very good at politics (I'm thinking back to the failure to refuse Cummings resignation for why he isn't excellent at it).
If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.
That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.
That's a left-wing view.
I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.
But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.
Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
Time for you to go to the LDs
Ta-ra.
Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
Let me stop you there
I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives
If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
They both want to repeat May's disastrous dementia tax or raise inheritance tax or impose a wealth tax to avoid a mere less than 1.5% rise in NI for the NHS and social care, on that basis Sir Ed Davey is welcome to them!
How do you describe the difference between the Boris plan and May plan making it so much easy to sell on doorstep?
IMV the biggest issue with May's plan was that it came out of nowhere. The government announced it in the manifesto, and the ground had not been prepared, laving fertile ground for opposition. The difference this time is that the need for changes to the way we deal with care costs have been well-argued, and the ground is prepared.
My most recent experience of the NHS was pretty good, in and out of A&E in about 5 hrs which included an emergency CT scan (All good) for my other half after a concussion.
Is when the NHS is fantastic. It's when it (treatment) gets more complicated that it falls down on so many levels.
Ah ha. Clearer now. This is not using a tax rise to fix social care, it's using Covid as cover for a tax rise for the NHS, and pretending that the funds raised will also fix social care, thus getting Johnson off the hook of his promise on that score. Smoke and mirrors. There is no Social Care Plan, not really, it's going to have to wait a bit longer, probably until there's a Labour PM.
This is just wrong. A social cap was recommended by the Dilnot Report as a key plank - indeed *the* key plank of social care reform, and with good reason.
£50k, I believe. It's going to much higher than that but, ok, I guess you can just about call it "fixing social care" if you're Boris Johnson. Not sure anyone else would.
I think the comments from Carlotta/FF43 up the thread are interesting. Is this in truth mainly about increasing the fiscal position with an eye on deficit reduction? - ie what they've actually done here is found the best way to sell a tax hike to the public. NI, not income tax, since it sounds more technical and targeted, and with the funds supposedly flagged for the NHS ("hurrah!") and Social Care (just like "Boris" promised!). In fact, all is fungible, so it's purely a game of presentation. You can't say these or those funds are for these or those purposes. It's just one big pie with the deficit as the completing piece. So, here, Sunak and the Treasury have got what they want. More tax revenue. That, in essence, is all that this is.
I like that take.
The Government's social care plan is undeniably a social care plan.
If you want the Government to go further you should be jumping for joy it has done this much after 35+ years of sweet f*** all.
Particularly if you think the tax changes announced today are functionally separate (and I agree they are).
What's always been odd to me is the way people bang on about the NHS as being some amazing service that isn't replicated anywhere in the world. I've lived overseas and my experience in Switzerland was far, far better than anything I've had here with the NHS. It has become completely impervious to criticism and therefore impossible to reform, all it is now is a money black hole which will continue to take a greater and greater share of national income while providing lesser and lesser service for the substantial grants it receives.
All over Europe healthcare is universally available and everywhere I've been has been hugely better than the NHS and the people are significantly healthier because there doesn't exist and attitude of "well who cares if I get sick, the NHS will fix it for me". I see a lot less of that from my European friends as compared to the general British attitude towards their own health.
If you want to spend Swiss levels og public money on healthcare then go for it.
The thing that makes the NHS so amazing is how incredibly cheap it is.
To get to swiss levels you are proposing a 20% increase to the NHS budget.
Cases 37.5K. Scotland is now trending downwards whilst England has jumped massively but testing is 50% higher than it was on the same day last week. I'm sure a lot of the testing is from schools. I think we will now see 2 or 3 weeks of case rises before they start to level off. It is why we should have been jabbing all 12+ over the Summer. I could not and still cannot see the logic in having delayed.
If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.
That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.
That's a left-wing view.
I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.
But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.
Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
Time for you to go to the LDs
At least Philip has some principles, a lot more than you it seems - and I have a great deal of respect for your posts.
Pointless principle. Its got to.be paid for somehow. Govts break manifesto pledges all the time.
Why is a principle that tax should be fair, low and equitable "pointless"?
Running a deficit would be better than putting up a jobs tax while trying to come out of a recession.
But if you're going to put up taxes, why only jobs and not unearned incomes?
You don't like taxes that affect you more than others... NI does that in every facet from those who don't pay anything to the high earners who pay a lot more..
I pay council tax most of which goes to.pay for educating other peoples kids.. i dont like it either
Um, it actually doesn't - schools are paid for by the Department of Education in England - via block grants to councils if still under their control.
Council tax pays for social care, bins, libraries and planning plus anything else the council wishes to spend money on (if it's down south so has money left over).
I used get a statement showing where the money is spent every year .. circa 85 pc was education if its not now then there has been some form of switcheroo as council tax has not gone down...
On holiday in Portugal, but time to repeat the marginal tax rates with this increase included (1.25% to employers and employees NI):
>£8k pa - employee's NI @ 13.25% and employer's NI @ 15.05% = 28.3% total >12.5k pa - base income tax @ 20% = 48.3% total >50k pa - higher rate income tax @ 40%, but employee's NI drops by 10% (someone correct me if I’m wrong on this in the new system)= 58.3% total £100k to £125k pa - lose tax-free threshold = 78.3% total £125k to £250k pa - tax-free threshold already lost = 58.3% total >£150k pa - income tax up to @ 45% = 63.8% total
For people with student loans, add perhaps another 5 to 10% onto the above.
Can someone remind me what property taxes are per year as a comparison?
If we want good public services there for public need as I believe in very fundamentally, they should be paid for with a tax system which is progressive and increases contribution based on wealth and income. That is irrelevant to age.
That is at the very core of my belief. I fundamentally believe that health, social care, education, transport should be paid for in this way.
That's a left-wing view.
I take the right-wing view. We need a tax system with low but consistent and equally applied tax rates, which allow economic growth and higher wages, leading to higher tax receipts and lower welfare expenditure.
But this government isn't following either left or right. Its following the Sir Humphrey view: what taxes can we get away with raising? There are no principles behind it.
Time for the Tories to go into Opposition.
Time for you to go to the LDs
Ta-ra.
Will ensure we become a purer, more traditional Conservative party as a result and will reduce Liberal dilution of Toryism and Social Democratic dilution of the LDs. Win, win
Let me stop you there
I very much lament the anger of @Philip_Thompson and @MaxPB and in no way do I celebrate their loss to the conservatives
If you are not careful you will end up as the sole member of your own party
They both want to repeat May's disastrous dementia tax or raise inheritance tax or impose a wealth tax to avoid a mere less than 1.5% rise in NI for the NHS and social care, on that basis Sir Ed Davey is welcome to them!
How do you describe the difference between the Boris plan and May plan making it so much easy to sell on doorstep?
IMV the biggest issue with May's plan was that it came out of nowhere. The government announced it in the manifesto, and the ground had not been prepared, laving fertile ground for opposition. The difference this time is that the need for changes to the way we deal with care costs have been well-argued, and the ground is prepared.
Cases 37.5K. Scotland is now trending downwards whilst England has jumped massively but testing is 50% higher than it was on the same day last week. I'm sure a lot of the testing is from schools. I think we will now see 2 or 3 weeks of case rises before they start to level off. It is why we should have been jabbing all 12+ over the Summer. I could not and still cannot see the logic in having delayed.
If the vaccines are made available to 12-15 year olds the take up may not be as high as you think. This cohort would (obviously) require parental agreement and I suspect this may be problematic for children of these ages.
Comments
UK benefit from significant additional support. There will be a legal requirement to
allocate the Levy revenues for spending on health and social care.
74. Receipts from the 2022-23 increase will go to the NHS or equivalent in Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland as with the current NHS NICs allocation. From April 2023, receipts
from the Levy will go to those responsible for health and social care in the devolved administrations, including NHS Scotland, NHS Wales and Health and Social Care (HSC)
in Northern Ireland.
Obvious question - if the Scottish Government can meet the same care obligations for less than the amount of new funds raised and passed on to them, can they re-direct some existing funding elsewhere?
Governments rarely rule anything out, for good reason (other than NI or income tax increases, natch)
If she is fairly unlucky Boris will give her a referendum and she will lose.
If her luck totally runs out Boris will give her a referendum and she will win. At which point Kyrie eleison. (I would put that as a less than 5% chance between now and 2030).
It might be tempting to Boris to give Ref2 at a time of his choosing just for laughs, but I think he will look at Cameron and 2016 and decide not.
I'd be fully on board with dissolving the NHS and moving to a Swiss style insurance based system. My healthcare in Switzerland was amazing and worked out to much less than I pay in tax.
@Nigelb
I've read the proposals. Though I would have favoured an increase in income tax (combined with higher rates for over 65s) I have to hand it to them - this has been thought through and presented rather well as far as I can see. I'm particularly pleased that they have extended the 1.25% NI levy to higher rate payers.
I've been away this morning so have missed the debates and the chatter on here, maybe some of the questions below have been addressed? Any help much appreciated:
1) Has there been an announcement regarding the triple lock?
2) The upper capital limit of £100k will exclude the house when the oldie stays living in it, but the document does not cover the instance of the person going into a care home with the spouse remaining in the house. Under current rules the house would be totally disregarded, will this disregard remain or will half the house become means testable?
3) Once the £86k cap is reached the local Authority is on the hook for all the costs. This will lead to the authorities recommending the cheapest possible homes in the knowledge that the old person/relatives will in many cases (perhaps most cases) want to pay to upgrade to a better solution. These upgrades will not count towards the £86k cap. I believe that this in effect makes the £86k cap misleading.
4) The 1.25% levy will also apply to over 65s still in employment. Two points on this: firstly this will incentivise people to defer the state pension until they cease work and secondly it is not clear in the document whether the working over 65s will only be liable for the levy or whether they will be brought fully into the NI regime.
5) The new system doesn't come in until Oct 23 - what of those already in homes who have already contributed large sums. Will these sums count towards the new cap?
6) The document only covers the additional spending on NHS and social care- what of Covid costs? There will be further tax rises to come for this surely? Wasn't this to be discussed today as well as health?
I suspect X only needs to be 0.2% max for it to more than replace the income from the new health and social care taxes.
I’m sure CHB appreciates your white knighting but I’ve got better things to do than engage with someone who gets angry about terms they don’t understand the meaning of.
Have a nice day.
So a property owner could either pay 0.2% annually, or eg go 40 years never paying Council Tax but when the house is eventually sold the accrued tax 8% of the sale price - with Central Government accruing for and reconciling such against national debts etc
Personally I’d add a sensible interest rate to the deferred payments, just to provide incentive to pay promptly for those that can.
No need to reply.
Have a nice day.
If you do it as equity release there'd be no need to do a sensible interest rate, as equity release is traditionally a non-sensible interest rate. It'd raise much more money if people didn't pay promptly.
Mate.
But it couldn't be a percentage of the sale price, as the money is needed now it would be £x with interest added on top.
IANAE, so might be wrong...
One big hole on the policy (as opposed to taxation) side of this is the scant regard given to integration of social care with healthcare - though I note lipservice is paid to this (again, Burnham* seemed to take this seriously in his ideas).
The other is burdens on LAs - lots of kind words from government, but very little in the way of hard cash or commitments.
*Don't want to sound like too much of a fan, because I'm not really, but he was head and shoulders above the rest of Labour today.
Unless people exploit and dodge the tax using fake sales prices. But there's already ways to combat that.
And equity typically grows much, much faster than even compound interest.
Don't be surprised if the Conservatives aren't up in the next set of polls. Social care and funding the NHS are popular. Don't you remember voting for it when you saw it on the side of a bus?
And paid for by the house owner not the tenant.
The one exception to this would be build to let complexes which are already explicitly excluded from stamp duty surcharges as they are unlikely to ever enter into the residential for sale property market.
Not announced by any of the big guns, because it’s not a major thing.
Tory’s HATE pensioners.
Nick Macpherson
@nickmacpherson2
·
3h
Over my adult life the national insurance rate has more than doubled from 5.75% to 12% and is set to go higher today. Over the same period the basic rate of income tax has fallen from 34% to 20%. That tells you a lot about the politics of taxation.
Fortunately for Boris, there is no-one of your calibre on the Opposition benches, or amongst the cadres of political journalists.
Also note, the new funds are ring fenced, not hypothecated.
That's a loan repayment not taxation (Yes I know it's a tax in all but name for most people who will never earn enough to pay the debt off).
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/07/boris-johnson-national-insurance-ni-tax-rise-covid-coronavirus-nhs-live-news-updates
...Boris Johnson spent more than an hour and a half taking questions from MPs, but there was very little evidence from what was said of opposition to his plans from Conservative MPs. All those backbenchers who were happy to denounce the proposals in recent days, either on or off the record, were either absent, or quiet, or else had had a mysterious change of hear...
The deflation of stout party Marcus Fysh is also noted.
With a complicated cap.
Which is why there are now multiple rules as to what qualifies as a holiday let for tax purposes.
That's why I like living up North, I don't have a mortgage so I'm £2k a month better off than people down south.
What we have is a Primeminister not afraid to take on the big questions of the day. Whilst Labour merrily prevaricated and fudged creating the care scandal, the Conservatives are sorting it once and for all.
What do you think was the Scandal then?
It’s a scandal people have to sell their homes to pay for residential care?
Or
Expanding the state further to protect private assets has got to be the wrong thing to do.
The status quo and the solution can’t both be scandalous?
It’s the Conservatives who have saved the NHS and Not just funded social care, but made it fair.
They have shot Labours fox, and Starmer hopeless at stopping them.
Boris announced the social care NI hike and Theresa Coffee the 2022/23 suspension of the triple lock.
LOUIS XIV’S FINANCE minister, Jean-Baptiste Colbert, famously declared that “the art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing.”
(The opening of an Economist article in 2014)
Anything you do based on a national scale of property prices, quickly descends into a north v south debate - as we see today.
The self named "grown ups" don't have a clue.
People expecting a fall in Boris's lead over the useless nonentity party after today will be sorely disappointed imo
Things we want more of: people working (including over 66 year olds that feel they have more to give). Things we want less of: rent seeking.
And yet this shower of a Cabinet apparently vote through the opposite in under an hour. Including the supposed golden boy Rishi. What a disappointment he's turned out to be.
The Conservative Party has become ideologically bankrupt and now cares only about pandering to the section of the voter base that allow them to keep troughing as long as possible. Time for a new broom. Lib Dems aren't going to win the election are they. So it will be a vote for Labour for me, or potentially a tactical vote for the Lib Dems given my seat is highly unlikely to turn Red. But the goal will be clear. Turf out these jokers, trust that Labour don't do too much damage and hope sanity returns to the Conservative party in time for the election afterwards.
All over Europe healthcare is universally available and everywhere I've been has been hugely better than the NHS and the people are significantly healthier because there doesn't exist and attitude of "well who cares if I get sick, the NHS will fix it for me". I see a lot less of that from my European friends as compared to the general British attitude towards their own health.
The thing that makes the NHS so amazing is how incredibly cheap it is.
To get to swiss levels you are proposing a 20% increase to the NHS budget.
I pay council tax most of which goes to.pay for educating other peoples kids.. i dont like it either
I'm already balls-deep in 2024+ Johnson leaving date but have topped up again at 1.74 and laid his leaving in 2022 at 6.2.
Meanwhile, it looks as if Labour is moving towards wealth taxes.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1435253482316042249
Council tax pays for social care, bins, libraries and planning plus anything else the council wishes to spend money on (if it's down south so has money left over).
No it doesn't. ???????
It goes almost entirely on social care.
The one thing you have to say about Boris is that he is usually very good at politics (I'm thinking back to the failure to refuse Cummings resignation for why he isn't excellent at it).
What on earth is Labour doing opposing minuscule and temporary rises in National Insurance, to help NHS get over Covid?
If you want the Government to go further you should be jumping for joy it has done this much after 35+ years of sweet f*** all.
Particularly if you think the tax changes announced today are functionally separate (and I agree they are).
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD?locations=CH-GB
>£8k pa - employee's NI @ 13.25% and employer's NI @ 15.05% = 28.3% total
>12.5k pa - base income tax @ 20% = 48.3% total
>50k pa - higher rate income tax @ 40%, but employee's NI drops by 10% (someone correct me if I’m wrong on this in the new system)= 58.3% total
£100k to £125k pa - lose tax-free threshold = 78.3% total
£125k to £250k pa - tax-free threshold already lost = 58.3% total
>£150k pa - income tax up to @ 45% = 63.8% total
For people with student loans, add perhaps another 5 to 10% onto the above.
Can someone remind me what property taxes are per year as a comparison?
But what exactly are the main differences?