The voting segment that is most hostile to BoJo – ABC1 Remainers – politicalbetting.com

kinabalu said:

MrEd said:

Andy_JS said:

"It is a tinder box about to explode,” a Labour activist campaigning in Batley & Spen tells The Times. For the second time in as many months, the party is battling a Tory challenge as it tries to hold on to its seat at a by-election.Many in Labour have written off their chances of holding the seat.

“The Muslim vote has collapsed,” one activist who has campaigned locally said. “In Spen, the way the pledges are coming back is similar to Hartlepool. Currently we’re losing it by about 6,000 to 7,000 and we could be propelled into third place.""

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-galloway-has-made-the-labour-leadership-a-key-issue-in-the-batley-spen-by-election-7db7zbz8v

Which is completely at odds with what the local L:abour activists have been telling Nick. It seems like B&S is just turning into a complete sh1t show.

Why are you believing an incognito whisper to the Times over a post to PB from our Nick?

contrarian said:

kinabalu said:

Sean_F said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

People being given lethal injections en masse.

That was rather what I got from the post. Visions of wooden huts and crocodile smiles.

You supported stopping children exercising.

You supported stopping children learning.

You supported saddling them with enormous debt

I didn't.

If there are wooden huts and crocodile smiles at all, that's where they are.

Vaccination of children against covid? for me there are just much bigger priorities.

contrarian said:

Cookie said:

contrarian said:

williamglenn said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

You find it extraordinary that anybody could consider ethics in a way that isn't entirely selfish.

The selfishness has come entirely from the boomer generation, who have destroyed the education, mental health and life chances of young people to save themselves. At every single turn.

Well yes. But I don't think that equates to 'don't vaccinate children'.
If the information we have shows that the risks of giving children the vaccine are less than letting them catch covid, to me, that equates to give them the vaccine. Because the odds of them not getting covid seem small.
Now its quite difficult to evaluate the risks of children catching covid. They almost certainly won't die. But there is a non-negligible chance that they might get quite ill. In a life-changing way? I'm not sure. But then again, the risks from the vaccine also seem tiny.

If my daughters had the chance to get vaccinated, I'd be very keen for them to be. My understanding is that though covid almost certainly won't kill them, it might make them seriously ill. Particularly the asthmatic one. Possibly in a way which does them permanent harm. Whereas the risk from the vaccine seems negligible.

It seems inevitable that they will be exposed to covid - particularly if we don't vaccinate children. The only calculation is what risk to them this is (in terms of more complex than just death or no death).

And I've been with you all the way on wanting to open up. I don't think lockdown works very well, and even if it did it would be a disproportionate reaction to the problem. But I don't see why thinking that should mean I don't want everyone who would benefit from it to be vaccinated.

I simply find it strange that people who were quite happy to see the lives of the young destroyed in ways covid could never have done think it is suddenly 'moral' to protect children from it.

If they had really wanted to protect children, they would allowed them to go on having their education, and exercising, right through the pandemic.

The lack of both affects more than 1 in a thousand. As will the poverty that comes with the enormous debt they have been saddled with.

DavidL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

Malmesbury said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

The first vaccination rate in the UK is about 0.4% of adult population per day, with the number as of yesterday at 84% of adults. Wales strongly suggests that it will top out at about 89% of adults.

That means in about 12-14 days*, the first vaccinations will be over - in terms of people actually trying to get vaccinated.

The supply pipeline for vaccines is months long and you can't just get an extra delivery.

So no, he can't change anything at this point.

*Yes - that assumes it doesn't tail off.

Its' good but not good enough. It leaves several million people unvaccinated and even more with only partial protection. We need to find ways to incentivise those we have missed, go looking for them and persuade. There is a lot to do here and it is very important to our protection from not only delta but the next variant off the block (which must surely be overdue).

Why?

It seems to me we have a better takeup than any other nation on the planet (considering Canada have authorised 12+ and we haven't).

There will be a minority of refuseniks. That is their right. They're wrong, but they're entitled to be wrong and to live with their consequences.

I did the arithmetic on this about a week ago and can't be bothered to repeat the operation but in round terms there were about 10m awaiting a first dose and just over 20m awaiting a second. At 150k a day for first doses there is in fact a long way to go yet and even longer for second doses.

It is also obvious we are getting to some of the harder to reach sections of society although my own family shows that is still an over simplification. We will come up against resistance. As you say, that is their right but we need to think how we incentivise those who have proven to be reluctant. It is why I backed covid passports, for example.

If we had kept up with the April/early May rate I do not think that the delay on 21st June would have been necessary but we didn't. We have slowed further and that makes the decision in July more marginal than it should have been. I remain convinced we need to go for the removal of regulation as soon as possible but the quid pro quo is surely rapid vaccination.

FrancisUrquhart said:

turbotubbs said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

22,868....3....227

Missing data from yesterday - I'd suggest taking an average of the two days for a more realistic position.

The hospital admissions are ticking up, but certainly not sky rocketing. 8-9 days of broadly the same amount of daily admissions.

jonny83 said:

We should be trying to achieve herd immunity through vaccination instead of letting it run rife through children because they are seen as lower risk, and the chances of them dying from Covid is seen as very low. The virus being able to spread freely in such a large segment/demographic group of the population will only increase the likelihood of variants. We need to vaccinate everyone we can IMO, put this virus in the worst position possible and restrict it's ability as much as possible to mutate.

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

Its amazing how pro-child vaccinators are suddenly taking on the mantle of victorian philanthropists concerned with the health of the young.

They are presumably the same pro-vaccinators who were silent when children's education and exercise was severely and at times entirely curtailed for months on end, to the huge detriment of their physical and mental health -

a detriment far greater than a dose of covid could ever have done, or a vaccine from it ever repair.

Why must you change what people say - most of us have said its about both herd immunity for all and to protect the very small minority of children who could suffer life changing consequences from catching the delta version of covid. If we did not have delta, I suspect daily cases would be in the hundreds and there would be no case to vaccinate the U18s in general. But its here, and spreading fast in those age groups.

It really would be easier if you just admitted to being an anti-vaxer.

No it would be much easier if you admitted you are a complete hypocrite.

For sixteen months the education and exercise of children, things that really really affected all their lives, 999 in 1,000 not 1 in 1,000 was not a priority,

Now suddenly, vaccinating them against a disease that doesn't really affect them, is??

turbotubbs said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

turbotubbs said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

22,868....3....227

Missing data from yesterday - I'd suggest taking an average of the two days for a more realistic position.

The hospital admissions are ticking up, but certainly not sky rocketing. 8-9 days of broadly the same amount of daily admissions.

Yep - vaccines doing exactly what they are supposed to and what JVCI set out - protect the ones who would end up in hospital (like A. Marr, who looked pretty chipper on Sunday after his bout with (presumably) delta).

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

Sean_F said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

People being given lethal injections en masse.

Vaccinations for diseases that affect children are essential. We all know what they are and why they should be taken.

Vaccinations for diseases that don't affect children....??? What's that all about?

It is not about the health of children.

Now you have jumped the shark. Covid can affect children, and quite seriously. Its not just death that is at issue, but the potential for life changing damage to organs etc.

lack of exercise and lack of education affects children much more seriously.

Comment from pro child-vax people on the prolonged denial of both during this pandemic, such as yourself?

None.

Because we are not discussing that. I have no doubt that the way we have handled schools and the effects on children has been very poor, especially so for the poor bastards in cities in flats with no outsides. Schools should have been handled better, but its not totally clear what the best way is. I think the isolation policies have been poor when there are cases in schools. But the main point is you have moved away from talking about vaccination to talk about something else - don't you want to talk about vaccination any more?

Nigelb said:

CarlottaVance said:

rottenborough said:

I see the Liar is already lying about sacking Hancock according to Mail. Total and utter fabrication by Johnson. He backed him. He said the matter was closed.

In fairness to Johnson "I sacked Hancock" were not words he uttered.

Also in fairness to Johnson, he's such a practiced liar that his blustering bullshit can convey the dishonest impression he desires, while maintaining a threadbare deniability.

FrancisUrquhart said:

OldKingCole said:

Andrew Marr has a piece on the BBC website (bbc/Health) about catching and suffering from Covid.

'I can't be sure - but working back, I'm pretty clear I caught the Delta variant of coronavirus during the summit of G7 (Group of Seven) nations, in Cornwall, probably on Sunday 13 June'

Interesting.

Its not really. We know there was an outbreak there so seems likely. He was unfortunate to catch it, but seems like the vaccine did its job and a week later he is back at work.

I think sensible advice at the moment is to avoid spending a lot of time in situations with big groups of different people, especially younger people outside of your family group, who won't be double jabbed.

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

I would be interested to know other 1/1,000 risks.

Is it a dying while trying to put your trousers on kind of risk or a jump in the car and drive 10 miles up the A1 risk?

If driving on the A1 was a 1/1000 risk then assuming you drive twice a day on weekdays alone you'd expect serious injury within five years as a median.

I've driven twenty years without serious injury so either massively beaten the odds or driving is not a 1/1000 risk.

Sandpit said:

felix said:

Andy_JS said:

"It is a tinder box about to explode,” a Labour activist campaigning in Batley & Spen tells The Times. For the second time in as many months, the party is battling a Tory challenge as it tries to hold on to its seat at a by-election.Many in Labour have written off their chances of holding the seat.

“The Muslim vote has collapsed,” one activist who has campaigned locally said. “In Spen, the way the pledges are coming back is similar to Hartlepool. Currently we’re losing it by about 6,000 to 7,000 and we could be propelled into third place.""

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-galloway-has-made-the-labour-leadership-a-key-issue-in-the-batley-spen-by-election-7db7zbz8v

I wonder how much of that is just hype to gtvo!

It’s definitely a contrast with the more positive reports of @NickPalmer, who’s been working the phone banks for Labour and will be more keen to emphasise the good news.

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

I would be interested to know other 1/1,000 risks.

Is it a dying while trying to put your trousers on kind of risk or a jump in the car and drive 10 miles up the A1 risk?

If driving on the A1 was a 1/1000 risk then assuming you drive twice a day on weekdays alone you'd expect serious injury within five years as a median.

I've driven twenty years without serious injury so either massively beaten the odds or driving is not a 1/1000 risk.

JosiasJessop said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

kinabalu said:

Sean_F said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

People being given lethal injections en masse.

That was rather what I got from the post. Visions of wooden huts and crocodile smiles.

You supported stopping children exercising.

You supported stopping children learning.

You supported saddling them with enormous debt

I didn't.

If there are wooden huts and crocodile smiles at all, that's where they are.

Vaccination of children against covid? for me there are just much bigger priorities.

Not sure this is quite fair. You're making me sound like a truly horrible piece of work.

Didn't you also cause the First World War for a laugh, light a cigarette on the Hindenberg, and float the iceberg towards the Titanic?

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

Sean_F said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

People being given lethal injections en masse.

Vaccinations for diseases that affect children are essential. We all know what they are and why they should be taken.

Vaccinations for diseases that don't affect children....??? What's that all about?

It is not about the health of children.

Now you have jumped the shark. Covid can affect children, and quite seriously. Its not just death that is at issue, but the potential for life changing damage to organs etc.

lack of exercise and lack of education affects children much more seriously.

Comment from pro child-vax people on the prolonged denial of both during this pandemic, such as yourself?

None.

Because we are not discussing that. I have no doubt that the way we have handled schools and the effects on children has been very poor, especially so for the poor bastards in cities in flats with no outsides. Schools should have been handled better, but its not totally clear what the best way is. I think the isolation policies have been poor when there are cases in schools. But the main point is you have moved away from talking about vaccination to talk about something else - don't you want to talk about vaccination any more?

I just don't see why vaccination of children is a priority, when so much that was so much more important for them, wasn't.

JosiasJessop said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

kinabalu said:

Sean_F said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

People being given lethal injections en masse.

That was rather what I got from the post. Visions of wooden huts and crocodile smiles.

You supported stopping children exercising.

You supported stopping children learning.

You supported saddling them with enormous debt

I didn't.

If there are wooden huts and crocodile smiles at all, that's where they are.

Vaccination of children against covid? for me there are just much bigger priorities.

Not sure this is quite fair. You're making me sound like a truly horrible piece of work.

Didn't you also cause the First World War for a laugh, light a cigarette on the Hindenberg, and float the iceberg towards the Titanic?

squareroot2 said:

Big Tottenham Hotspur takeover news; They have been bought by a billionaire from Dubai. The deal has been rumoured for some weeks now and will be announced formally next week . Reports suggest the billionaire is Sheik Hanvak. He is going to put the freshness back into the club.

turbotubbs said:

OldKingCole said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

I would be interested to know other 1/1,000 risks.

Is it a dying while trying to put your trousers on kind of risk or a jump in the car and drive 10 miles up the A1 risk?

If driving on the A1 was a 1/1000 risk then assuming you drive twice a day on weekdays alone you'd expect serious injury within five years as a median.

I've driven twenty years without serious injury so either massively beaten the odds or driving is not a 1/1000 risk.

I've been told that someone my age has a 1 in 2 chance of having cancer.

I've had two types.

I've had leukemia so i tell my wife I've had the 1 in 2 for our marriage...

OldKingCole said:

turbotubbs said:

OldKingCole said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

I would be interested to know other 1/1,000 risks.

Is it a dying while trying to put your trousers on kind of risk or a jump in the car and drive 10 miles up the A1 risk?

If driving on the A1 was a 1/1000 risk then assuming you drive twice a day on weekdays alone you'd expect serious injury within five years as a median.

I've driven twenty years without serious injury so either massively beaten the odds or driving is not a 1/1000 risk.

I've been told that someone my age has a 1 in 2 chance of having cancer.

I've had two types.

I've had leukemia so i tell my wife I've had the 1 in 2 for our marriage...

I say something similar. Trust you're OK now.

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

Its amazing how pro-child vaccinators are suddenly taking on the mantle of victorian philanthropists concerned with the health of the young.

They are presumably the same pro-vaccinators who were silent when children's education and exercise was severely and at times entirely curtailed for months on end, to the huge detriment of their physical and mental health -

a detriment far greater than a dose of covid could ever have done, or a vaccine from it ever repair.

Why must you change what people say - most of us have said its about both herd immunity for all and to protect the very small minority of children who could suffer life changing consequences from catching the delta version of covid. If we did not have delta, I suspect daily cases would be in the hundreds and there would be no case to vaccinate the U18s in general. But its here, and spreading fast in those age groups.

It really would be easier if you just admitted to being an anti-vaxer.

No it would be much easier if you admitted you are a complete hypocrite.

For sixteen months the education and exercise of children, things that really really affected all their lives, 999 in 1,000 not 1 in 1,000 was not a priority,

Now suddenly, vaccinating them against a disease that doesn't really affect them, is??

OldKingCole said:

TOPPING said:

squareroot2 said:

Big Tottenham Hotspur takeover news; They have been bought by a billionaire from Dubai. The deal has been rumoured for some weeks now and will be announced formally next week . Reports suggest the billionaire is Sheik Hanvak. He is going to put the freshness back into the club.

April 1st? Seriously? Levy sold?

Not that I know anything about word on the street but he never seemed the type to sell.

Spurs bought by an Arab. That's going to cause confusion!

TOPPING said:

squareroot2 said:

Big Tottenham Hotspur takeover news; They have been bought by a billionaire from Dubai. The deal has been rumoured for some weeks now and will be announced formally next week . Reports suggest the billionaire is Sheik Hanvak. He is going to put the freshness back into the club.

April 1st? Seriously? Levy sold?

Not that I know anything about word on the street but he never seemed the type to sell.

Andy_Cooke said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

Its amazing how pro-child vaccinators are suddenly taking on the mantle of victorian philanthropists concerned with the health of the young.

They are presumably the same pro-vaccinators who were silent when children's education and exercise was severely and at times entirely curtailed for months on end, to the huge detriment of their physical and mental health -

a detriment far greater than a dose of covid could ever have done, or a vaccine from it ever repair.

Why must you change what people say - most of us have said its about both herd immunity for all and to protect the very small minority of children who could suffer life changing consequences from catching the delta version of covid. If we did not have delta, I suspect daily cases would be in the hundreds and there would be no case to vaccinate the U18s in general. But its here, and spreading fast in those age groups.

It really would be easier if you just admitted to being an anti-vaxer.

No it would be much easier if you admitted you are a complete hypocrite.

For sixteen months the education and exercise of children, things that really really affected all their lives, 999 in 1,000 not 1 in 1,000 was not a priority,

Now suddenly, vaccinating them against a disease that doesn't really affect them, is??

You may think that a disease that would hospitalise 10,000-20,000 (more) children in England alone if they remain unvaccinated is irrelevant to them, or that having tens to hundreds of thousands of them develop long term chronic conditions "doesn't really affect them", but others may disagree.
Me, I'm uncomfortable with thousands of kids getting organ damage.
I'm not completely clear how that makes me a hypocrite, but I often have difficulty following your chain of thought.

squareroot2 said:

TOPPING said:

squareroot2 said:

Big Tottenham Hotspur takeover news; They have been bought by a billionaire from Dubai. The deal has been rumoured for some weeks now and will be announced formally next week . Reports suggest the billionaire is Sheik Hanvak. He is going to put the freshness back into the club.

April 1st? Seriously? Levy sold?

Not that I know anything about word on the street but he never seemed the type to sell.

Its a joke.. read it more carefully.. play on words....

DavidL said:

Spain should win this surely? Even with their trouble in scoring goals they are surely too good for Croatia, however much they consistently out perform.

Andy_Cooke said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

Its amazing how pro-child vaccinators are suddenly taking on the mantle of victorian philanthropists concerned with the health of the young.

They are presumably the same pro-vaccinators who were silent when children's education and exercise was severely and at times entirely curtailed for months on end, to the huge detriment of their physical and mental health -

a detriment far greater than a dose of covid could ever have done, or a vaccine from it ever repair.

Why must you change what people say - most of us have said its about both herd immunity for all and to protect the very small minority of children who could suffer life changing consequences from catching the delta version of covid. If we did not have delta, I suspect daily cases would be in the hundreds and there would be no case to vaccinate the U18s in general. But its here, and spreading fast in those age groups.

It really would be easier if you just admitted to being an anti-vaxer.

No it would be much easier if you admitted you are a complete hypocrite.

For sixteen months the education and exercise of children, things that really really affected all their lives, 999 in 1,000 not 1 in 1,000 was not a priority,

Now suddenly, vaccinating them against a disease that doesn't really affect them, is??

You may think that a disease that would hospitalise 10,000-20,000 (more) children in England alone if they remain unvaccinated is irrelevant to them, or that having tens to hundreds of thousands of them develop long term chronic conditions "doesn't really affect them", but others may disagree.
Me, I'm uncomfortable with thousands of kids getting organ damage.
I'm not completely clear how that makes me a hypocrite, but I often have difficulty following your chain of thought.

squareroot2 said:

TOPPING said:

squareroot2 said:

Big Tottenham Hotspur takeover news; They have been bought by a billionaire from Dubai. The deal has been rumoured for some weeks now and will be announced formally next week . Reports suggest the billionaire is Sheik Hanvak. He is going to put the freshness back into the club.

April 1st? Seriously? Levy sold?

Not that I know anything about word on the street but he never seemed the type to sell.

Its a joke.. read it more carefully.. play on words....

felix said:

Redfield & Wilton Strategies
@RedfieldWilton
·
40s
Westminster Voting Intention (28 June):

Conservative 41% (-3)
Labour 34% (+1)
Liberal Democrat 9% (-1)
Scottish National Party 5% (+1)
Green 5% (+1)
Reform UK 3% (–)
Other 2% (-1)

Changes +/- 21 June

Floater said:

https://order-order.com/2021/06/28/starmers-cynically-divisive-kashmiri-u-turn/

squareroot2 said:

Big Tottenham Hotspur takeover news; They have been bought by a billionaire from Dubai. The deal has been rumoured for some weeks now and will be announced formally next week . Reports suggest the billionaire is Sheik Hanvak. He is going to put the freshness back into the club.

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Although unsurprising that ABC1 Remainers are most hostile to Boris Johnson, a bit more surprising that C2DE Remainers are less hostile to him than C2DE Leavers

Are you happily married now @HYUFD

Yes, been married for over a week now thanks and just returned from a Cotswolds honeymoon

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Although unsurprising that ABC1 Remainers are most hostile to Boris Johnson, a bit more surprising that C2DE Remainers are less hostile to him than C2DE Leavers

Are you happily married now @HYUFD

Yes, been married for over a week now thanks and just returned from a Cotswolds honeymoon

HYUFD said:

felix said:

Redfield & Wilton Strategies
@RedfieldWilton
·
40s
Westminster Voting Intention (28 June):

Conservative 41% (-3)
Labour 34% (+1)
Liberal Democrat 9% (-1)
Scottish National Party 5% (+1)
Green 5% (+1)
Reform UK 3% (–)
Other 2% (-1)

Changes +/- 21 June

On those numbers Labour would hold Batley

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Although unsurprising that ABC1 Remainers are most hostile to Boris Johnson, a bit more surprising that C2DE Remainers are less hostile to him than C2DE Leavers

Are you happily married now @HYUFD

Yes, been married for over a week now thanks and just returned from a Cotswolds honeymoon