The voting segment that is most hostile to BoJo – ABC1 Remainers – politicalbetting.com

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

For some vaccine-sceptics I've talked to, and read about, the risk from the vaccine cannot in their view be quantified at this time as it is such a new vaccine. That seems to be the main problem in any pro and con appraisal.

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

I would be interested to know other 1/1,000 risks.

Is it a dying while trying to put your trousers on kind of risk or a jump in the car and drive 10 miles up the A1 risk?

Stocky said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

For some vaccine-sceptics I've talked to, and read about, the risk from the vaccine cannot in their view be quantified at this time as it is such a new vaccine. That seems to be the main problem in any pro and con appraisal.

Balanced against the known effects of SARS-Cov-2 2 years down the line............

TimT said:

DavidL said:

turbotubbs said:

DavidL said:

Malmesbury said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

The first vaccination rate in the UK is about 0.4% of adult population per day, with the number as of yesterday at 84% of adults. Wales strongly suggests that it will top out at about 89% of adults.

That means in about 12-14 days*, the first vaccinations will be over - in terms of people actually trying to get vaccinated.

The supply pipeline for vaccines is months long and you can't just get an extra delivery.

So no, he can't change anything at this point.

*Yes - that assumes it doesn't tail off.

Its' good but not good enough. It leaves several million people unvaccinated and even more with only partial protection. We need to find ways to incentivise those we have missed, go looking for them and persuade. There is a lot to do here and it is very important to our protection from not only delta but the next variant off the block (which must surely be overdue).

You do know that there are hundreds of variants don't you? Only a few have characteristics that make a material difference to its ability to make people ill. And it cannot change too much it loses the ability to say bind to the ACE-2 receptors.
We need to be careful of variants, but there is little prospect of a sudden emergence of a variant which completely evades the current vaccines.

Yes I do know. The variants of concern as they call them, which have basically been the SA one, Kent and now Delta, have each increased the infectivity of the virus and its propensity to spread. The evolutionary advantage of this is obvious and there is a recognised tendency for viruses to develop in this way, also becoming more benign because this keeps their host alive for longer allowing more opportunities for transmission. Going by the past pattern it seems inevitable that an even more infectious variant than delta will be along very shortly.

The evidence to date is that none of these variants defeat the vaccine but in countries like ours where the majority of potential hosts are vaccinated the ability to do so would be a huge evolutionary advantage and any such variant would become dominant very quickly. We need to stay alert to this but the priority is to protect as many people as possible as quickly as possible.

@ DavidL. Glad to see you back and hope you are doing well after your recent scare.

Taking it easy at home thanks. Going to be somewhat under powered for a while yet but the projection is positive.

ping said:

DavidL said:

Just as well there's not too many of these ABC1 remainers on here, eh? Otherwise the government would be getting pelters day in and day out.

PB is very ABC1

Hey, I'm C2 and proud of it!

At least I think I am.

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

What I am concerned about is that young people are yet again, for the umpteenth time, being sacrificed by a bunch of sixty plus fanatics for whom no measure will ever be enough.

Floater said:

LMAO

https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1409514115689766915

In Batley and Spen, Labour will put you on an attack leaflet if you pose alongside Modi. In Brent North...

Someone defends on the basis that there was more on the leaflet than the photo of Modi, but that's kind of the point - it was a list of bad things beneath a photo of Boris and Modi, next to a warning.

I'm not Sherlock Holmes but I sense a connection.

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

What I am concerned about is that young people are yet again, for the umpteenth time, being sacrificed by a bunch of sixty plus fanatics for whom no measure will ever be enough.

You could make exactly the same argument about being indifferent to young people catching a virus with unknown long-term effects and a non-zero risk of serious short-term illness.

Oh the Labour leaflet is real apparently.

kinabalu said:

isam said:

kinabalu said:

An interesting header. So the big Johnson divide is educational not Brexit. The more book learning you have the more likely you are to see through him. I find this quite heartening because it means an anti-Johnson viewpoint is rather like a detached house with a patio and a basement wine collection - a sign of having arrived. As such, given the aspirational nature of the British people, it will be much sought after, and with it also being (unlike high end property and vintage merlot) attainable completely free of charge, simply requiring a quick and painless mental upgrade, the numbers are surely set to grow. I've just topped up on Starmer Next PM at 9.

Back him to go by Aug as a Hedge?

I do have a bit of a convoluted composite going on - including the GE bet with you - but, no, I won't be adding that one in. The party will be deciding next Spring/Summer whether Starmer will lead into the election. It would take something seismic to bring that forward to this year. Losing Batley will not imo be such an event.

Maybe meeting Modi?

He is probably more likely not to make the GE, than win it, now though

Pulpstar said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Death is an incredibly low bar.

There was a chap about 2000 years ago who allegedly hurdled it but the documentation is sketchy.

kinabalu said:

Selebian said:

DavidL said:

RochdalePioneers said:

So basically the richer / smarter you are the less favourably you consider the liar in chief.

Or, to put it another way, the better you did under the status quo the more likely you are to defend it. Which leaves the government is a somewhat ironic position for a Conservative party.

It also puts me in an interesting philosophical position. I'm somewhere in ABC1 (hard to work out exactly where - mid/senior academic) but I think C2DE have had a pretty raw deal over the past 20-30 years (and I have C2/D - when they were working - parents). So, my postion is that politicians should again care about C2DE. C2DE seem to think, generally, that this conservative government is good of them - or at least better than the alternative. Do I take a paternalistic approach and vote against the government anyway as I don't believe they'll really deliver for C2DE (therefore assuming that "I know best" what is best for C2DE) or do I accept that they know what they're on about? Or do I pull up the drawbridge and vote for whoever is best for me personally, somewhere in ABC1?

(I've probably voted LD, which is very ABC1, more often than for other parties over the past twenty years, although not recently, so I must concede I don't have much track record voting for the C2DE groups favoured parties).

It's your vote and I think you should unashamedly cast it on the basis of you know best.

Absolutely. No need to defer your own judgement to others even if sympathetic to their view. Like those who wanted to wait to see which way DUP would jump on May deal revisions before deciding themselves.

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

People being given lethal injections en masse.

Stocky said:

Where are we with vaccinating 12-18 year olds? Is it likely to start anytime soon? Weeks, months?

Hopefully, AIUI both the 16&17 and 12-15 age groups have been authorised, and in a few cases, (presumably Pre existing heath conditions) they have been given, (at least to the 16 & 17 year olds)

But, I think the disition to as to whether to use them on mass, has not yet been taken, even for the 16 & 17 year olds.

I would assume that people in the health department, possibly including Hancock, where hopping that R would be so low by now, that they would not have to make that dicition, i.e. it would be unassay.

The problem being, both risks as very very small, COVID to children and Vaccine in children, and its not clear that the former is bigger than the latter, therefore might be the cases that by vaccinating you put that individual at a bigger risk that just letting them catch COVID. but by doing that you might stop the population as a whole form reaching 'herd immunity' but not defiantly, perhaps when we have given every adult who wants one a jab and a second one, and 2 weeks, that will be enough.

Timing, I recon we have 8 days left maybe less until the number of people coming forward for a first jab drops to a trickle, so need to chose soon, but will be 2 months ish until we have given ever second jab, plus 2 weeks, so that's almost back to school time.

What to do? I think we can let 16 and 17 year olds decide for themselves, many may what to take it, ether to show they 'believe in science', or so they feel safer visiting granny, or so they are fully vacated, ready for the day they tern 18 and go night clubbing, or whatever. \perhaps only half or less will, but that in and off itself will give us better data on how it affects that age group.

I think we should let 16 & 17 start booking slots now/ASAP. Hopefully, R goes below 1 before we run out of 16&17 year olds, but if not, (and the data form the 16&17 is OK) we open it to younger people, whose parents wish them to have it. but recognise it gets more complex the younger you go.

rottenborough said:

I see the Liar is already lying about sacking Hancock according to Mail. Total and utter fabrication by Johnson. He backed him. He said the matter was closed.

In fairness to Johnson "I sacked Hancock" were not words he uttered.

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00261-2 ?

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

I would be interested to know other 1/1,000 risks.

Is it a dying while trying to put your trousers on kind of risk or a jump in the car and drive 10 miles up the A1 risk?

I like the drive your car 10 miles comparison with COVID. In both cases, the bulk of the safety measures are in your hands and so you control most of the risks. But in both cases, you cannot control the risks from other idiots' behaviour, nor the unforeseen risks from the equipment (car/vaccine).

Yep. That is fair. You are at the mercy of bad drivers (of which you are not one, obvs) or over-effusive huggers (or snoggers, seeing as we're talking about teenagers).

Still interested to know the other 1/1,000 risks, that said.

But in both cases, one is oneself a risk to others as well ...

MrEd said:

Andy_JS said:

"It is a tinder box about to explode,” a Labour activist campaigning in Batley & Spen tells The Times. For the second time in as many months, the party is battling a Tory challenge as it tries to hold on to its seat at a by-election.Many in Labour have written off their chances of holding the seat.

“The Muslim vote has collapsed,” one activist who has campaigned locally said. “In Spen, the way the pledges are coming back is similar to Hartlepool. Currently we’re losing it by about 6,000 to 7,000 and we could be propelled into third place.""

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-galloway-has-made-the-labour-leadership-a-key-issue-in-the-batley-spen-by-election-7db7zbz8v

Which is completely at odds with what the local L:abour activists have been telling Nick. It seems like B&S is just turning into a complete sh1t show.

Either it's one of the angriest and dirtiest campaigns since Rahman was in Tower Hamlets, or the reporting on it is one of the angiest and dirtiest.

Either way, worrying.

isam said:

Oh the Labour leaflet is real apparently.

kinabalu said:

isam said:

kinabalu said:

An interesting header. So the big Johnson divide is educational not Brexit. The more book learning you have the more likely you are to see through him. I find this quite heartening because it means an anti-Johnson viewpoint is rather like a detached house with a patio and a basement wine collection - a sign of having arrived. As such, given the aspirational nature of the British people, it will be much sought after, and with it also being (unlike high end property and vintage merlot) attainable completely free of charge, simply requiring a quick and painless mental upgrade, the numbers are surely set to grow. I've just topped up on Starmer Next PM at 9.

Back him to go by Aug as a Hedge?

I do have a bit of a convoluted composite going on - including the GE bet with you - but, no, I won't be adding that one in. The party will be deciding next Spring/Summer whether Starmer will lead into the election. It would take something seismic to bring that forward to this year. Losing Batley will not imo be such an event.

Maybe meeting Modi?

He is probably more likely not to make the GE, than win it, now though

50% to lead into the GE. And if he does, 33% to emerge as PM.
So our 3/1 bet should at this point be 5/1. You're up.

Interesting thread on top paying degrees from analysis by the Torygraph...

https://twitter.com/tele_education/status/1409462879724658689?s=20

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

I think this is how contrarian imagines it:

BigRich said:

Stocky said:

Where are we with vaccinating 12-18 year olds? Is it likely to start anytime soon? Weeks, months?

Hopefully, AIUI both the 16&17 and 12-15 age groups have been authorised, and in a few cases, (presumably Pre existing heath conditions) they have been given, (at least to the 16 & 17 year olds)

But, I think the disition to as to whether to use them on mass, has not yet been taken, even for the 16 & 17 year olds.

I would assume that people in the health department, possibly including Hancock, where hopping that R would be so low by now, that they would not have to make that dicition, i.e. it would be unassay.

The problem being, both risks as very very small, COVID to children and Vaccine in children, and its not clear that the former is bigger than the latter, therefore might be the cases that by vaccinating you put that individual at a bigger risk that just letting them catch COVID. but by doing that you might stop the population as a whole form reaching 'herd immunity' but not defiantly, perhaps when we have given every adult who wants one a jab and a second one, and 2 weeks, that will be enough.

Timing, I recon we have 8 days left maybe less until the number of people coming forward for a first jab drops to a trickle, so need to chose soon, but will be 2 months ish until we have given ever second jab, plus 2 weeks, so that's almost back to school time.

What to do? I think we can let 16 and 17 year olds decide for themselves, many may what to take it, ether to show they 'believe in science', or so they feel safer visiting granny, or so they are fully vacated, ready for the day they tern 18 and go night clubbing, or whatever. \perhaps only half or less will, but that in and off itself will give us better data on how it affects that age group.

I think we should let 16 & 17 start booking slots now/ASAP. Hopefully, R goes below 1 before we run out of 16&17 year olds, but if not, (and the data form the 16&17 is OK) we open it to younger people, whose parents wish them to have it. but recognise it gets more complex the younger you go.

From the other thread - Cookie wrote

Chance of a 15-year-old being hospitalised: 2000 per million (female); 6000 per million(male) against original covid (Delta is reportedly twice as likely to hospitalise you, so double those).
For a 17-year-old: 4000 per million (female); 6000 per million (male).
Chance of myocarditis following covid for a young, healthy college-age athlete (which doesn't necessarily hospitalise you): Estimated between 10,000 per million and 30,000 per million.

Estimated chance of myocarditis following Pfizer vaccine: 16 per million.
(NB - once again, this doesn't necessarily hospitalise you).

That's not taking into account Long Covid (and that a significant proportion of those hospitalised for covid will have long-term organ damage).

Everyone should make their own decision, but those are the best figures we've got at the moment. Given that Delta is so transmissible, I'm personally working on the default assumption that everyone will see the virus sooner or later. And, for me, as 16 is far lower than 10,000-30,000 (for direct comparability) and even far lower than 2,000-6,000 (or 4,000-12,000 if the hospitalisation risk is indeed doubled for Delta) to compare something less severe with full-on hospitalisation, that's what directs my decision.

(And for adverse effects that are far less - such as feeling rotten for 1-2 days (about 10% after vaccine); I think that should be compared with the chance of at least feeling really rotten for 2-3 weeks (about 60% after virus).

I do understand that others don't necessarily view things the same way."

Its amazing how pro-child vaccinators are suddenly taking on the mantle of victorian philanthropists concerned with the health of the young.

They are presumably the same pro-vaccinators who were silent when children's education and exercise was severely and at times entirely curtailed for months on end, to the huge detriment of their physical and mental health -

a detriment far greater than a dose of covid could ever have done, or a vaccine from it ever repair.

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

What I am concerned about is that young people are yet again, for the umpteenth time, being sacrificed by a bunch of sixty plus fanatics for whom no measure will ever be enough.

Being vaccinated is being sacrificed? Seriously, just take this bollocks elsewhere.

--AS

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

I would be interested to know other 1/1,000 risks.

Is it a dying while trying to put your trousers on kind of risk or a jump in the car and drive 10 miles up the A1 risk?

I like the drive your car 10 miles comparison with COVID. In both cases, the bulk of the safety measures are in your hands and so you control most of the risks. But in both cases, you cannot control the risks from other idiots' behaviour, nor the unforeseen risks from the equipment (car/vaccine).

Yep. That is fair. You are at the mercy of bad drivers (of which you are not one, obvs) or over-effusive huggers (or snoggers, seeing as we're talking about teenagers).

Still interested to know the other 1/1,000 risks, that said.

1/1000 is way greater than most risks of dying in the course of the next year. For some compiled examples, see
https://www.riskcomm.com/visualaids/riskscale/datasources.php

Childbirth is the only activity/event that comes within an order of magnitude close.

MrEd said:

Andy_JS said:

"It is a tinder box about to explode,” a Labour activist campaigning in Batley & Spen tells The Times. For the second time in as many months, the party is battling a Tory challenge as it tries to hold on to its seat at a by-election.Many in Labour have written off their chances of holding the seat.

“The Muslim vote has collapsed,” one activist who has campaigned locally said. “In Spen, the way the pledges are coming back is similar to Hartlepool. Currently we’re losing it by about 6,000 to 7,000 and we could be propelled into third place.""

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-galloway-has-made-the-labour-leadership-a-key-issue-in-the-batley-spen-by-election-7db7zbz8v

Which is completely at odds with what the local L:abour activists have been telling Nick. It seems like B&S is just turning into a complete sh1t show.

Note the Times activist is talking about Spen in particular. It may be that Batley is different.

MrEd said:

Andy_JS said:

"It is a tinder box about to explode,” a Labour activist campaigning in Batley & Spen tells The Times. For the second time in as many months, the party is battling a Tory challenge as it tries to hold on to its seat at a by-election.Many in Labour have written off their chances of holding the seat.

“The Muslim vote has collapsed,” one activist who has campaigned locally said. “In Spen, the way the pledges are coming back is similar to Hartlepool. Currently we’re losing it by about 6,000 to 7,000 and we could be propelled into third place.""

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-galloway-has-made-the-labour-leadership-a-key-issue-in-the-batley-spen-by-election-7db7zbz8v

Which is completely at odds with what the local L:abour activists have been telling Nick. It seems like B&S is just turning into a complete sh1t show.

Why are you believing an incognito whisper to the Times over a post to PB from our Nick?

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

I would be interested to know other 1/1,000 risks.

Is it a dying while trying to put your trousers on kind of risk or a jump in the car and drive 10 miles up the A1 risk?

I like the drive your car 10 miles comparison with COVID. In both cases, the bulk of the safety measures are in your hands and so you control most of the risks. But in both cases, you cannot control the risks from other idiots' behaviour, nor the unforeseen risks from the equipment (car/vaccine).

Yep. That is fair. You are at the mercy of bad drivers (of which you are not one, obvs) or over-effusive huggers (or snoggers, seeing as we're talking about teenagers).

Still interested to know the other 1/1,000 risks, that said.

1/1000 is way greater than most risks of dying in the course of the next year. For some compiled examples, see
https://www.riskcomm.com/visualaids/riskscale/datasources.php

Childbirth is the only activity/event that comes within an order of magnitude close.

Have we established that 1/1000 is the risk of a teenager dying from Covid? The first poster said something like "serious effects".

Edit: that is a great website.

contrarian said:

Its amazing how pro-child vaccinators are suddenly taking on the mantle of victorian philanthropists concerned with the health of the young.

They are presumably the same pro-vaccinators who were silent when children's education and exercise was severely and at times entirely curtailed for months on end, to the huge detriment of their physical and mental health -

a detriment far greater than a dose of covid could ever have done, or a vaccine from it ever repair.

More likely the opposite and they were advocating needles into school-aged arms in order to get the sprogs back into free childcare or whatever else it is that goes on in schools.

kle4 said:

isam said:

kle4 said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

isam said:

Sir Keir’s fan club are trying to defend the leaflet by saying the photo was doctored… here’s the original. How is it any better?

No wonder they blacked out the text. The leaflet is about Islamophobia, and shows Boris Johnson meeting a notorious Islamophobe while pointing out the Tories' long history of Islaphobia, including Johnson's own comments. I think the leaflet is completely fine.

Can't see what difference it makes. Either sectarian campaigns are ok or they are not.

This is a landmark day - the day the sickeningly pious centrists admitted they were no different to Jezza, Farage, Boris, Nick Griffin and all the others they pretended to be outraged by.

I cant work out if I'm one of the sickeningly pious centrist there or not.

First avoidance of doubt I dont think the leaflet is ok even with the full context, since its divisive motivation on sectarian grounds seems clear.

I think I am one of the sickeningly pious centrist. At least I hope I am.

I'm not convinced the leaflet is sectarian, although I am not an expert on these things. If the picture was just a random Indian politician I would be inclined to think it was obviously playing the anti India card and was out of order. But Modi is not just a random Indian politician. This is the guy who was put under a travel ban by the US, UK and EU for his role in the pogrom in Gujarat when he was Chief Minister of the state. So if people want to use him as a poster boy for Islamophobia, which the US State Department thought he was guilty of, I don't think that's unreasonable.

Sean_F said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

People being given lethal injections en masse.

That was rather what I got from the post. Visions of wooden huts and crocodile smiles.

contrarian said:

Its amazing how pro-child vaccinators are suddenly taking on the mantle of victorian philanthropists concerned with the health of the young.

They are presumably the same pro-vaccinators who were silent when children's education and exercise was severely and at times entirely curtailed for months on end, to the huge detriment of their physical and mental health -

a detriment far greater than a dose of covid could ever have done, or a vaccine from it ever repair.

No. We're not. I've been raging for over a year about the blob's casual treatment of education as a non-essential service. The damage to children has been huge. But I don't see this as a reason not to vaccinate them, subject to the right questions about balance of risks.

I want my children vaccinated for their benefit, not mine.

Stocky said:

kinabalu said:

isam said:

kinabalu said:

An interesting header. So the big Johnson divide is educational not Brexit. The more book learning you have the more likely you are to see through him. I find this quite heartening because it means an anti-Johnson viewpoint is rather like a detached house with a patio and a basement wine collection - a sign of having arrived. As such, given the aspirational nature of the British people, it will be much sought after, and with it also being (unlike high end property and vintage merlot) attainable completely free of charge, simply requiring a quick and painless mental upgrade, the numbers are surely set to grow. I've just topped up on Starmer Next PM at 9.

Back him to go by Aug as a Hedge?

I do have a bit of a convoluted composite going on - including the GE bet with you - but, no, I won't be adding that one in. The party will be deciding next Spring/Summer whether Starmer will lead into the election. It would take something seismic to bring that forward to this year. Losing Batley will not imo be such an event.

I've been laying Starmer Exit date 2021 with BF for a while at average price of 4.4

What price should Starmer be to leave in 2021?

Remember that LP leader elections take at least three months to finalise and the BF market settles on this basis: "We will settle this market on the date the Labour Party officially announce their new Permanent Party Leader after Keir Starmer. Temporary/interim leaders do not count. If a temporary/interim leader is appointed we will wait until the date of the announcement of the Permanent Leader before settling. "

I'd want well over 10/1 I think.

Good to see Betfair being quite clear about it this time, after their almighty screw-up over the Theresa May replacement as party leader market.

kinabalu said:

Sean_F said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

People being given lethal injections en masse.

That was rather what I got from the post. Visions of wooden huts and crocodile smiles.

You supported stopping children exercising.

You supported stopping children learning.

You supported saddling them with enormous debt

I didn't.

If there are wooden huts and crocodile smiles at all, that's where they are.

Vaccination of children against covid? for me there are just much bigger priorities.

22868, 3, 227

Cookie said:

22868, 3, 227

Just off to re-erect the barricades.....to stop all the plague carriers getting near Chez Urquhart.

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Well's that an interesting titbit....

the CCTV cameras in the office were made by Hikvision, a Chinese firm banned in the US over concerns that it could be used by Beijing as a spying tool.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9728843/Matt-Hancocks-affair-footage-office-CCTV-reveals-GLEN-OWEN.html

WTF are the government allowing Chinese CCTV cameras anywhere near their offices? The report says the DoH is leased from a private company, but still, that should be an absolute no no.

I’m utterly astonished that the offices occupied by the ‘top floor’ of government departments, don’t have police as security and MI5 taking an interest in how they’re set up.

That is the problem with the whole Hancock affair and why the sacked-or-resigned types may be barking up the wrong tree. There are just too many aspects to it. Who is controlling cameras: the government or private landlords? What of the Chinese connection? Where else are there cameras? Was Gina made a director to get round the SpAd rules? Was Gina hired specifically to keep Matt's pecker up? Did taxpayers pay for a shagathon at the G7 health summit? And that's without what Boris did and whether the Saj looked at the numbers before sounding off on reopening and whether it was Carrie who tricked Boris into bringing back the Saj to annoy Cummings who'd tricked Boris into sacking him.

ETA and the private email server which is a security risk but also obfuscates who awarded no-bid contracts to Tory donors and Matt's friends and relations.

So many questions that perhaps they all cancel each other out and Boris skips free.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Cookie said:

22868, 3, 227

Just off to re-erect the barricades.....to stop all the plague carriers getting near Chez Urquhart.

Like a tidal wave, Delta can't be stopped.

Stocky said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

For some vaccine-sceptics I've talked to, and read about, the risk from the vaccine cannot in their view be quantified at this time as it is such a new vaccine. That seems to be the main problem in any pro and con appraisal.

I think I understand the 'logic' - we don't know about effects that might happen after 5, 10 or 20 years, so they cannot be fully 'safe'. Against that is that AIUI no vaccine has ever produced a side effect that is not see in the first weeks/months after administration.

Sajid Javid says ministers shouldn't have cameras in their offices. I must shut that stable door. And he wouldn't be in his current job if that were so. But more seriously, issues include how the video clip got out, the security of all existing footage, and the security of government ministries generally and his one in particular. "No cameras, no problem" isn't the answer to any of those.

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

What I am concerned about is that young people are yet again, for the umpteenth time, being sacrificed by a bunch of sixty plus fanatics for whom no measure will ever be enough.

Sacrificed? Do you mean offered a vaccine that may prevent harm from a significant illness? In what way sacrificed?

Looking at the header chart, I do have to concede that Remainers clearly are the extremists in the country, with leavers being in the moderate centre!

contrarian said:

Sean_F said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

People being given lethal injections en masse.

Vaccinations for diseases that affect children are essential. We all know what they are and why they should be taken.

Vaccinations for diseases that don't affect children....??? What's that all about?

It is not about the health of children.

Now you have jumped the shark. Covid can affect children, and quite seriously. Its not just death that is at issue, but the potential for life changing damage to organs etc.

YBarddCwsc said:

kle4 said:

MrEd said:

Andy_JS said:

"It is a tinder box about to explode,” a Labour activist campaigning in Batley & Spen tells The Times. For the second time in as many months, the party is battling a Tory challenge as it tries to hold on to its seat at a by-election.Many in Labour have written off their chances of holding the seat.

“The Muslim vote has collapsed,” one activist who has campaigned locally said. “In Spen, the way the pledges are coming back is similar to Hartlepool. Currently we’re losing it by about 6,000 to 7,000 and we could be propelled into third place.""

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-galloway-has-made-the-labour-leadership-a-key-issue-in-the-batley-spen-by-election-7db7zbz8v

Which is completely at odds with what the local L:abour activists have been telling Nick. It seems like B&S is just turning into a complete sh1t show.

Either it's one of the angriest and dirtiest campaigns since Rahman was in Tower Hamlets, or the reporting on it is one of the angiest and dirtiest.

Either way, worrying.

Kim Leadbeater looks like a rabbit that has been placed in a cage with a wolverine.

Harsh but true.

I’m not sure she was expecting Galloway and his bend of Merry men, thought she’s be primarily fighting the Conservative.

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

Its a balance for the individual - how do you give the best health outcome. If the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk of harm from the disease, and in where cases are spreading rapidly in that cohort then yes I think it is justified.

What are your concerns about it?

I would be interested to know other 1/1,000 risks.

Is it a dying while trying to put your trousers on kind of risk or a jump in the car and drive 10 miles up the A1 risk?

I like the drive your car 10 miles comparison with COVID. In both cases, the bulk of the safety measures are in your hands and so you control most of the risks. But in both cases, you cannot control the risks from other idiots' behaviour, nor the unforeseen risks from the equipment (car/vaccine).

Yep. That is fair. You are at the mercy of bad drivers (of which you are not one, obvs) or over-effusive huggers (or snoggers, seeing as we're talking about teenagers).

Still interested to know the other 1/1,000 risks, that said.

See the table below:


Taken from terrificscience.org/lessonpdfs/Scientific_View_of_Risk.pdf

“On Sunday, a technical issue caused a delay to the processing of data for England. The government said outstanding cases would be published in the next update, which could be why today's number of cases looks high.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57634438

Sandpit said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Well's that an interesting titbit....

the CCTV cameras in the office were made by Hikvision, a Chinese firm banned in the US over concerns that it could be used by Beijing as a spying tool.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9728843/Matt-Hancocks-affair-footage-office-CCTV-reveals-GLEN-OWEN.html

WTF are the government allowing Chinese CCTV cameras anywhere near their offices? The report says the DoH is leased from a private company, but still, that should be an absolute no no.

I’m utterly astonished that the offices occupied by the ‘top floor’ of government departments, don’t have police as security and MI5 taking an interest in how they’re set up.

Pardon me for not having reviewed the full CCTV, but where exactly is this camera? Is it in DHSC offices or in the common parts outside them?

It is (was) inside the Secretary of State’s office, pointing at the door.

I wonder if it was recording audio, as well as video? I assume that the network firewall doesn’t give internet access to the CCTV subnet and VLAN, or is that also a naïve assumption? Lots of questions...

Of course the media will be totally focused on when the shagging started....when there is a big story here and lots of questions.

Its a bit like the phone hacking. NOTW and Mirror very bad stuff, but the Indy had some very interesting stories about corporate and international hacking going ons. That got no real traction, but I think there were some very serious issues both from if criminality occurred (pretty sure it did) and also exactly who was behind a lot of it and why.

MaxPB said:

I think the public health wankers and dickhead scientists have realised they're in trouble because Sajid won't be as easy to trick with fake data and broken modelling. Getting rid of Hancock is a game changer for this country as the idiot who's clearly afraid of his own shadow will no longer be a constant voice of delay and caution eating up all the bullshit presented to him about 100k cases per day etc...

As a dickhead scientist working closely with public health wankers, I endorse this message

contrarian said:

Its amazing how pro-child vaccinators are suddenly taking on the mantle of victorian philanthropists concerned with the health of the young.

They are presumably the same pro-vaccinators who were silent when children's education and exercise was severely and at times entirely curtailed for months on end, to the huge detriment of their physical and mental health -

a detriment far greater than a dose of covid could ever have done, or a vaccine from it ever repair.

Why must you change what people say - most of us have said its about both herd immunity for all and to protect the very small minority of children who could suffer life changing consequences from catching the delta version of covid. If we did not have delta, I suspect daily cases would be in the hundreds and there would be no case to vaccinate the U18s in general. But its here, and spreading fast in those age groups.

It really would be easier if you just admitted to being an anti-vaxer.

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

Sean_F said:

kinabalu said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

turbotubbs said:

contrarian said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

263,267 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 118,366 1st doses / 97,993 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 17,869 / 12,418
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 944 / 8,766
NI 2,533 / 4,378

Sigh. Absolutely no question what should be top of Sajid's in-tray. Indeed, empty the bloody in-tray into the bin and put the rate of vaccination back in. Nothing that is in our power is more important economically, socially, healthwise. Nothing.

Disagreed.

The vaccination program is over. We're now chasing up refuseniks and waiting for second doses to become eligible, but everyone has been eligible to get vaccinated now and mass walk in vaccinations are available no appointment necessary nationwide.

If people aren't getting jabbed yet, its because they don't want to be. And if they don't want to be, we should under no circumstances be remaining restricted to protect them.

There should be one item in Sajid's in-tray and that's saying that we are now lifting all legal restrictions. If you haven't yet had it and wish not to be infected with Covid, go get your vaccine, but the restrictions are no longer there to prevent it spreading.

The next question is do we vaccinate kids over the summer holidays?

Are we vaccinating the young

A. to stop them spreading covid to granny who was double jabbed months ago

or

B. to make a pretty negligible threat to them even more negligible?

Firstly we are not vaccinating the young yet (with some medically approved exceptions). And I think both A and B apply. If we wish to get true heard immunity in the face of the very transmissible delta, then we may need to get as many of the 12-18 year olds done too. In the face of rising cases, and with a non-zero risk of harm from covid in that age group there is a clinical case for vaccinating for their protection, in addition to the benefits to the entire population.

Turbo mate the average person who passed away from covid was 82 with two or more co-morbidities.

Look at the stats. For U18 there is about 1 in 1000 chance of severe disease with Covid. For an individual its vanishingly small, but it means in a school of 1000 pupils who all get covid, one with be seriously ill with potential life changing consequences. Its not simple.

I find it extraordinary you are justifying mass vaccination of children on this basis. Utterly extraordinary.

What are you thinking "vaccination" means? What's your mental image there?

People being given lethal injections en masse.

Vaccinations for diseases that affect children are essential. We all know what they are and why they should be taken.

Vaccinations for diseases that don't affect children....??? What's that all about?

It is not about the health of children.

Now you have jumped the shark. Covid can affect children, and quite seriously. Its not just death that is at issue, but the potential for life changing damage to organs etc.

Now? I fear you haven't been paying attention over the past few months.

Sandpit said:

Malmesbury said:

DavidL said:

LostPassword said:

DavidL said:

ping said:

A further 3,285 cases of Covid-19 have been recorded in Scotland, a new record high.

A total of 12.6% of people who were tested for the virus were positive.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57638936

Zero deaths recorded over the weekend despite this although no doubt there will be the odd laggard recorded. Even allowing for lags the link is broken. That is the key message (other than get your vaccines while their hot, 2 for absolutely nothing).

The small print is that the Registers are normally closed over the weekend, so wouldn't expect any deaths recorded, but the message is right. The vaccines work. Get yours in.

Absolutely. My 23 year old gets her first vaccine this afternoon at 4. My 17 year old has an appointment for his first in 2 weeks time. Daughter number 1 and us oldies are already double vaxxed.

I really want my son to have had both jabs before he goes away for University in October. The incredible slow down in the rate of vaccination has been making me anxious about this (since he would want to have had it no later than mid September) but I hope it will still be possible.

In about 2 weeks, the first vaccinations will be down to pretty much nothing - lack of demand. Your son will be able to get his second dose as early as he wants, I reckon.

The original Pfizer trial was with a three week gap, which is what USA, UAE and Israel have stuck with. That could quickly become the norm for the youngsters, as the queue disappears.

To reply to myself, those three countries are also now vaccinating 12+ age groups, in the millions. We will very quickly discover if there’s any issues that might prevent the UK rollout of the same groups.