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Comments
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Being very selfish but I am about to buy US and Canadian dollars for our cruiseScott_P said:
Maybe Boris resigning would help as well
The polls are very important as anything that detects a loss of support for him and a rise in Corbyn could see a cabinet revolt led by Michael Gove
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Smith gone I thinkMisread odds movement !0 -
Michael Gove is being dishonest.edmundintokyo said:Hillary Benn currently pulling the legs off Michael Gove
https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/2e9c4033-92b3-4edb-b5dd-09f0990e832c0 -
The EU are always up for reform, inevitably it involves more Europe.Jonathan said:
The Reformotron (tm) obviously! Apparently the EU are up for it.Alanbrooke said:
where is this Reform going to come from ?Jonathan said:
There are two possible outcomes.Casino_Royale said:
Agreed.Richard_Tyndall said:
I would agree that a soft Brexit of some type has to be the answer. Whilst it won't solve all the issues it will avoid the two extemes of Remain and No Deal and so limit the backlash.Nigelb said:
It is a hard problem with the country so polarised.Richard_Tyndall said:
Learn to read. I said almost 50%.eek said:
How do you jump from 48% wish to leave the EU to 50% think democracy has failed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Anyone looking at that and thinking another referendum will solve anything is utterly mad. Particularly because if that is the result the vast majority of people on the Leave side will feel they have had a legitimate victory stolen from them. Almost 50% of your population thinking democracy has failed and that the MPs are responsible for it is a recipe for complete disaster.CarlottaVance said:
The country is split but only one side is going to have their legitimate victory taken away from them. If you think that will be anything other than a disaster then you have your head buried in the sand.
I agree with you Richard that a Norway-ish type Brexit would have been the best compromise solution, but sadly I think that too (in the unlikely event of its happening) might well be seen as the theft of a "legitimate victory".
Though in its favour it might be seen as depriving both sides of 'victory'.
1 An EFTA style soft Brexit
2 Remain, with genuine reform and an opt-out from every closer union.
Ideally any solution needs to be put to the people in a referendum.
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So you have a CINO government. What's the point of an anti-business spend-thrift Tory government? Might as well vote for Corbyn and get the Real Thing.HYUFD said:
Cummings is pursuing the only agenda to win the next general election ie deliver Brexit at all costs and end austerity
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Things are so shambolic for the tories right now its embarrassing. And still they have a chance to win!0
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Is Corbyn playing for time due to deselection/reselection process for Labour MPs is still uncompleted?
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Sarah?edmundintokyo said:Gove: The future is known only to the Almighty
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Looks like the SNP might wait for an election rather than agree to one mid October .
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tsk, worse happens on Eastenders.CarlottaVance said:0 -
I think wanting to see Boris break his 31 Oct commitment is the driver.dr_spyn said:Is Corbyn playing for time due to deselection/reselection process for Labour MPs is still uncompleted?
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It puts people like Rudd, Hancock and Morgan on the spot.dyedwoolie said:I dont think Jo is going to be particularly popular with his colleagues today, not the leavers anyway and remainers backing Boris arent going to be thrilled with him
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https://www.statista.com/statistics/883660/support-for-brexit-scenarios/bigjohnowls said:As a Brexiteer and speaking on behalf of all 4 Leavers in Chez BJO. These are my thoughts on BREXIT
Literally nobody voted for No Deal, let alone 17.4million. We'll get nowhere until fellow Brexiters take their heads out of their arses and accept this obvious fact.
A few will accept No Deal as an outcome but the No No Dealers are by far and away in the majority and there IS NO MANDATE FOR NO DEAL.
Jeez It's like trying to take a lollipop off a child getting these people with their heads in their arse to see the reality of where we are now.
Oh and good morning fellow PBers
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiQE9MIkpweG7ql4RufBWTAbfwuTciRWE2kz_6o4aFUexX7N-m
When you look what people are saying in polls support for no deal is rising. I supported the WA as was as it seemed the best compromise but we are not in an era of sense and compromise. Despite what is written on here
- No deal remains the most preferred option. If the numbers were reversed and this was revoke then there would be a feasible
- Support for prorogue petition has dwindled as people realise that Parliament still has the ability to do what is required, and proroguing for a short period at the time proposed is not actually that serious.
- Boris has taken the difficult decisions early. He made vote on anti no deal a confidence vote and told those who supported the bill he would remove whip and he has. Whilst he no longer has a majority, May had more of a rebellion and Corbyn has nowhere near enough support.
- Boris has sacrificed his majority for a simple message going into an election. .What is the simple Labour message? They are still two parties within a party with Starmer briefing one thing and Corbyn the opposite.
- Despite assertions on here about how evil the current government is - they have done nothing yet - how can thy be judged?0 -
There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”0 -
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Not spendthrift, the Tories did the hard work in the coalition of reducing the deficit.Tabman said:
So you have a CINO government. What's the point of an anti-business spend-thrift Tory government? Might as well vote for Corbyn and get the Real Thing.HYUFD said:
Cummings is pursuing the only agenda to win the next general election ie deliver Brexit at all costs and end austerity
Now they are a tax cutting, easing off on austerity pro Brexit Party as opposed to the ' No magic money tree', dementia tax May while Corbyn still promising to deliver Brexit in 2017 while now refusing to deliver.
In the battle of the populists Boris will beat Corbyn now Corbyn has sided with the establishment to block Brexit0 -
I had noticed a tweet from someone who had been asked to stand as Labour PPC, he claimed process was incomplete.Benpointer said:
I think wanting to see Boris break his 31 Oct commitment is the driver.dr_spyn said:Is Corbyn playing for time due to deselection/reselection process for Labour MPs is still uncompleted?
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Or TBP and get a proper brexit.Tabman said:
So you have a CINO government. What's the point of an anti-business spend-thrift Tory government? Might as well vote for Corbyn and get the Real Thing.HYUFD said:
Cummings is pursuing the only agenda to win the next general election ie deliver Brexit at all costs and end austerity0 -
"...torn between family loyalty and the national interest."SouthamObserver said:
The quotes are the killer.dyedwoolie said:
Its an important distinction to clarify, one is very embarrassing, the other a deliberate knifingIanB2 said:
It’s being taken as announcing his intention to stand down in the anticipated GE, not a resignation.TheValiant said:
So, assuming a GE doesn't overtake matters, a by-election looms. Perhaps Hallam too if O'Mara even un un resigns (or whatever).Barnesian said:Jo Johnson quits as minister AND as Tory MP!
EDIT Sorry I'm 8 minutes behind in this fast moving drama.
It reads as if he is resigning now as a minister, but even that awaits clarification
Brutal.0 -
The Tories aren't reducing austerity there will still be 20,000 less police then there was in 2010.HYUFD said:
Not spendthrift, the Tories did the hard work in the coalition of reducing the deficit.Tabman said:
So you have a CINO government. What's the point of an anti-business spend-thrift Tory government? Might as well vote for Corbyn and get the Real Thing.HYUFD said:
Cummings is pursuing the only agenda to win the next general election ie deliver Brexit at all costs and end austerity
Now they are a tax cutting, easing off on austerity pro Brexit Party as opposed to the ' No magic money tree', dementia tax May while Corbyn still promising to deliver Brexit in 2017 while now refusing to deliver.
In the battle of the populists Boris will beat Corbyn now Corbyn has sided with the establishment to block Brexit
Other statements of fact also exist to show the fact.0 -
10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a jokeCarlottaVance said:0 -
Can we save some of the comments on here about how dreadful Boris is, and how his project is over, to come back to anger the election. I think they might look a bit silly. Polling this weekend is likely to be fun.
If no GE is called before prorogation then Boris gets to spend two weeks using the bully pulpit, outside of any electoral balance rules, to ram home his message without a parliament to challenge him. I also still think there are ways round that law, if the Government is clever and ruthless.
To paraphrase Corbyn, I don’t think remainers will be smiling in October.0 -
Gove says he would back Theresa May’s deal again.0
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Another wicket at Old Trafford, but Smith is still in.0
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I don't doubt that process may be ongoing but I doubt it is the driver for Labour's current desire for a few weeks' delay.dr_spyn said:
I had noticed a tweet from someone who had been asked to stand as Labour PPC, he claimed process was incomplete.Benpointer said:
I think wanting to see Boris break his 31 Oct commitment is the driver.dr_spyn said:Is Corbyn playing for time due to deselection/reselection process for Labour MPs is still uncompleted?
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The vast majority (on both leave and remain sides) who seem to believe that he really is going for no deal cannot explain why he went for prorogation dates that had no benefit at all for delivering no deal?kinabalu said:
Not negligible.williamglenn said:There must be a chance the Johnson administration will simply collapse in acrimony.
The brother's resignation is telling.
It tells me 2 things. That Boris really is going for No Deal and is not contemplating anything else.
That those who know him best can see that as PM he is unfit for purpose.
If he wanted prorogation to deliver no deal it would have been a month later.
If he thought that was too controversial it would have been no prorogation.
The dates he chose can only have been to signal to his followers how committed he is to no deal, whilst at the same time making no deal on Oct 31 extremely unlikely.
They achieved nothing to help with no deal, and plenty that blocked it.
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Genuine question, is there a conservative moderating force in number 10 that might be able to counterbalance the dual force of Boris' ego and Cummings that is currently driving the Tory party mad.
Is there some residual conservative DNA is Boris' body?0 -
I am not sure that "the dog ate my homework" will wash - Boris promised to be out on 31 October, no ifs no buts and no general election. Either he was lying or he promised something he knew he could not deliver.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”0 -
That being said, it’s sad and alarming that the country is now so split. The comments on here are indicative of the sorts of people who’ll be very upset come polling day, and will become hard to reconcile with. It saddens me that we might embark on a US style “culture war”.0
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May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.HYUFD said:
10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a jokeCarlottaVance said:
You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?1 -
Will he have to leave the Tory party for voting against the govt?williamglenn said:Gove says he would back Theresa May’s deal again.
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I’m old enough to remember when the Kinnock amendment was a thing.1
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LDs now up to 16 MPs with Berger's defection, they now have double the number of MPs they had in 20150
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Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”
As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.
And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.0 -
This is the key thing. Boris has lost a series of small battles but has a great chance to win the war. The remainers are enjoying humiliating Boris but they could soon face total defeat. If Boris wins any sort of majority, even a small one, there will be nothing to stop him from implementing Brexit. After 5 years we will have signed the trade deals and business will have moved on and there will be no way back.Nemtynakht said:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/883660/support-for-brexit-scenarios/bigjohnowls said:As a Brexiteer and speaking on behalf of all 4 Leavers in Chez BJO. These are my thoughts on BREXIT
Literally nobody voted for No Deal, let alone 17.4million. We'll get nowhere until fellow Brexiters take their heads out of their arses and accept this obvious fact.
A few will accept No Deal as an outcome but the No No Dealers are by far and away in the majority and there IS NO MANDATE FOR NO DEAL.
Jeez It's like trying to take a lollipop off a child getting these people with their heads in their arse to see the reality of where we are now.
Oh and good morning fellow PBers
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiQE9MIkpweG7ql4RufBWTAbfwuTciRWE2kz_6o4aFUexX7N-m
When you look what people are saying in polls support for no deal is rising. I supported the WA as was as it seemed the best compromise but we are not in an era of sense and compromise. Despite what is written on here
- No deal remains the most preferred option. If the numbers were reversed and this was revoke then there would be a feasible
- Support for prorogue petition has dwindled as people realise that Parliament still has the ability to do what is required, and proroguing for a short period at the time proposed is not actually that serious.
- Boris has taken the difficult decisions early. He made vote on anti no deal a confidence vote and told those who supported the bill he would remove whip and he has. Whilst he no longer has a majority, May had more of a rebellion and Corbyn has nowhere near enough support.
- Boris has sacrificed his majority for a simple message going into an election. .What is the simple Labour message? They are still two parties within a party with Starmer briefing one thing and Corbyn the opposite.
- Despite assertions on here about how evil the current government is - they have done nothing yet - how can thy be judged?1 -
But we hold all the cards and can choose the way forward we want.edmundintokyo said:Gove: The future is known only to the Almighty
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Jo not letting Boris know in advance might possibly drive a little bit more sympathy Boris way, it seems a nasty way to do it, unnecessarily so, and questions why jo would have accepted a job a few weeks ago. Rumour is he was unhappy about the purge but I'm not sure knifing your brother in the front is the right way to deal with it.0
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What happened there?SouthamObserver said:I’m old enough to remember when the Kinnock amendment was a thing.
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Or vote LD rather than Labour and get a proper RemainTOPPING said:
Or TBP and get a proper brexit.Tabman said:
So you have a CINO government. What's the point of an anti-business spend-thrift Tory government? Might as well vote for Corbyn and get the Real Thing.HYUFD said:
Cummings is pursuing the only agenda to win the next general election ie deliver Brexit at all costs and end austerity0 -
You may be right but O'Mara and Onasanya were products of a rushed selection process.Benpointer said:
I don't doubt that process may be ongoing but I doubt it is the driver for Labour's current desire for a few weeks' delay.dr_spyn said:
I had noticed a tweet from someone who had been asked to stand as Labour PPC, he claimed process was incomplete.Benpointer said:
I think wanting to see Boris break his 31 Oct commitment is the driver.dr_spyn said:Is Corbyn playing for time due to deselection/reselection process for Labour MPs is still uncompleted?
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Of course he can, why not?eek said:
Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”
As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.
And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.0 -
The problen is the Remain side are split and Labour cannot unite them because the leadership are such terrible people. If the Lib Dems get enough of a boost to surpass Corbyn in the polls, there could be a flood of voters to them.Tabman said:0 -
True.dr_spyn said:
You may be right but O'Mara and Onasanya were products of a rushed selection process.Benpointer said:
I don't doubt that process may be ongoing but I doubt it is the driver for Labour's current desire for a few weeks' delay.dr_spyn said:
I had noticed a tweet from someone who had been asked to stand as Labour PPC, he claimed process was incomplete.Benpointer said:
I think wanting to see Boris break his 31 Oct commitment is the driver.dr_spyn said:Is Corbyn playing for time due to deselection/reselection process for Labour MPs is still uncompleted?
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This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.0
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Yes, you might have thought that after Cameron, and May, Boris would have been careful not to offer something he could not be sure of delivering.anothernick said:
I am not sure that "the dog ate my homework" will wash - Boris promised to be out on 31 October, no ifs no buts and no general election. Either he was lying or he promised something he knew he could not deliver.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”0 -
My head's spinning a bit. Can someone remind what the point of proroguing was in the first place?eek said:
Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”
As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.
And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.0 -
This morning we were talking about trust in Boris Johnson as Labour's campaign theme. This is their latest line...
"Even Boris Johnson’s own brother doesn’t trust him"0 -
The election after next maybe, if they overtake or get close to overtaking Labour this time which polls suggest they could the LDs then become the main centre left alternative to the Tories leaving Labour with just the hard left, much like the Canadian Liberals or now En Marche in France are the main left liberal alternative to the rightGabs2 said:
Luciana Berger is a real talent. I think the Lib Dems could win the next election.HYUFD said:LDs now up to 16 MPs with Berger's defection, they now have double the number of MPs they had in 2015
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He got a very big majority for an election last night, not enough however under FTPA, he can argue there is a clear majority for an election (289 to 58)and propose an amendment to the FTPA Monday and labour have to actively block him, showing they are playing it for party mot countryeek said:
Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”
As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.
And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.0 -
Johnson appeals to a block of Leave obsessives, which admittedly is a large minority. He has nothing to offer anybody else.GarethoftheVale2 said:
This is the key thing. Boris has lost a series of small battles but has a great chance to win the war. The remainers are enjoying humiliating Boris but they could soon face total defeat. If Boris wins any sort of majority, even a small one, there will be nothing to stop him from implementing Brexit. After 5 years we will have signed the trade deals and business will have moved on and there will be no way back.Nemtynakht said:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/883660/support-for-brexit-scenarios/bigjohnowls said:As a Brexiteer and speaking on behalf of all 4 Leavers in Chez BJO. These are my thoughts on BREXIT
Literally nobody voted for No Deal, let alone 17.4million. We'll get nowhere until fellow Brexiters take their heads out of their arses and accept this obvious fact.
A few will accept No Deal as an outcome but the No No Dealers are by far and away in the majority and there IS NO MANDATE FOR NO DEAL.
Jeez It's like trying to take a lollipop off a child getting these people with their heads in their arse to see the reality of where we are now.
Oh and good morning fellow PBers
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiQE9MIkpweG7ql4RufBWTAbfwuTciRWE2kz_6o4aFUexX7N-m
When you look what people are saying in polls support for no deal is rising. I supported the WA as was as it seemed the best compromise but we are not in an era of sense and compromise. Despite what is written on here
- No deal remains the most preferred option. If the numbers were reversed and this was revoke then there would be a feasible
- Support for prorogue petition has dwindled as people realise that Parliament still has the ability to do what is required, and proroguing for a short period at the time proposed is not actually that serious.
- Boris has taken the difficult decisions early. He made vote on anti no deal a confidence vote and told those who supported the bill he would remove whip and he has. Whilst he no longer has a majority, May had more of a rebellion and Corbyn has nowhere near enough support.
- Boris has sacrificed his majority for a simple message going into an election. .What is the simple Labour message? They are still two parties within a party with Starmer briefing one thing and Corbyn the opposite.
- Despite assertions on here about how evil the current government is - they have done nothing yet - how can thy be judged?1 -
It is perfect. Simple line, plenty of evidence - even his own brother doesn't trust him etc etc.El_Capitano said:This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.
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To provoke a vote of no confidence so he’d get an election.Stark_Dawning said:
My head's spinning a bit. Can someone remind what the point of proroguing was in the first place?eek said:
Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”
As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.
And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.
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I think it's very, very unlikely but...Gabs2 said:
The problen is the Remain side are split and Labour cannot unite them because the leadership are such terrible people. If the Lib Dems get enough of a boost to surpass Corbyn in the polls, there could be a flood of voters to them.Tabman said:
...the LDs would represent something different in the eyes of many (in E&W) who are disillusioned with the established main parties.
Could Swinson become our Macron?0 -
Boris character is hardly a surprise, the electorate are well aware of it. When all parties go down the route of character attacks they simply raise the issue that "theyre all like that" and damage themselves in the process.El_Capitano said:This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.
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Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for BorisNigelb said:
May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.HYUFD said:
10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a jokeCarlottaVance said:
You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?0 -
Only because most people intentionally abstained as it needed 434 votes to be carried and there wasn't 434 MPs in the house.dyedwoolie said:
He got a very big majority for an election last night, not enough however under FTPA, he can argue there is a clear majority for an election (289 to 58)and propose an amendment to the FTPA Monday and labour have to actively block him, showing they are playing it for party mot countryeek said:
Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”
As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.
And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.0 -
The antisemitic tropes used against Ed Miliband seemed to be pretty effective.Alanbrooke said:
Boris character is hardly a surprise, the electorate are well aware of it. When all parties go down the route of character attacks they simply raise the issue that "theyre all like that" and damage themselves in the process.El_Capitano said:This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.
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Maybe he did a Wollaston and just joined Team Boris so that he'd get a chance to quit?kle4 said:
Jo backing Boris never made sense given his reasons for resigning as a minister previously.kinabalu said:
Not negligible.williamglenn said:There must be a chance the Johnson administration will simply collapse in acrimony.
The brother's resignation is telling.
It tells me 2 things. That Boris really is going for No Deal and is not contemplating anything else.
That those who know him best can see that as PM he is unfit for purpose.
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It's not entirely a surprise, given the way in which Brexit cuts across loyalties in the major parties, and is I think more a mark of those who understand that democratic politics may require some compromise even on our strongly held beliefs.noneoftheabove said:
It is remarkable how many posters with extremely different viewpoints would tolerate a soft Brexit answer compared to the polls.Nigelb said:
It is a hard problem with the country so polarised.Richard_Tyndall said:
Learn to read. I said almost 50%.eek said:
How do you jump from 48% wish to leave the EU to 50% think democracy has failed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Anyone looking at that and thinking another referendum will solve anything is utterly mad. Particularly because if that is the result the vast majority of people on the Leave side will feel they have had a legitimate victory stolen from them. Almost 50% of your population thinking democracy has failed and that the MPs are responsible for it is a recipe for complete disaster.CarlottaVance said:
The country is split but only one side is going to have their legitimate victory taken away from them. If you think that will be anything other than a disaster then you have your head buried in the sand.
I agree with you Richard that a Norway-ish type Brexit would have been the best compromise solution, but sadly I think that too (in the unlikely event of its happening) might well be seen as the theft of a "legitimate victory".
Though in its favour it might be seen as depriving both sides of 'victory'.
The reason is we are more engaged and have considered the possible outcomes and their consequences shifting us away from our instinctive first preferences.
To repeat the process for the country, the best chance is Rory Stewarts national convention or citizens assembly. Take away revoke, referendum and no deal. Take away politicians. Ask 250 people drawn by lot to spend 3 months clarifying what they want the relationship with the EU to be within those constraints. Get them to elect a dozen to negotiate that with the EU for another 3 months. Parliament commits in advance to pass whatever they agree.
The idea you put forward is not unattractive, but the route to it is exceedingly hard to discern.0 -
The wise tory selectorate choose the leader who offers them the most sweeties.Peter_the_Punter said:
Yes, you might have thought that after Cameron, and May, Boris would have been careful not to offer something he could not be sure of delivering.anothernick said:
I am not sure that "the dog ate my homework" will wash - Boris promised to be out on 31 October, no ifs no buts and no general election. Either he was lying or he promised something he knew he could not deliver.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”0 -
Haven't you been saying for months now that the Tories would do badly in the next election if we're still in the EU after Oct 31st? Do you not believe that's the case any more, or do you think this week hasn't made that outcome any more likely?HYUFD said:
Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for BorisNigelb said:
May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.HYUFD said:
10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a jokeCarlottaVance said:
You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?0 -
Jeez that's a warped conclusion. Labour delay a chance to win an election in order to protect the country from a No Deal exit during the campaign and they are 'playing it for party not country'?!dyedwoolie said:
He got a very big majority for an election last night, not enough however under FTPA, he can argue there is a clear majority for an election (289 to 58)and propose an amendment to the FTPA Monday and labour have to actively block him, showing they are playing it for party mot countryeek said:
Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”
As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.
And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.
Where are all those PBers who were only recently saying Corbyn wanted a No Deal exit so that he could cash in on the chaos?0 -
And it will be repeated endlessly by the opposition parties, BXP included. "You can't trust Boris" will soon be as ubiquitous and well known as "Lock her up" or "build the wall" was to the Trump campaign. And it will be much closer to the truth than the Trump slogans.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
It is perfect. Simple line, plenty of evidence - even his own brother doesn't trust him etc etc.El_Capitano said:This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.
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Boris has past form which can be brought up that others just don't have.Alanbrooke said:
Boris character is hardly a surprise, the electorate are well aware of it. When all parties go down the route of character attacks they simply raise the issue that "theyre all like that" and damage themselves in the process.El_Capitano said:This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.
Encouraging the underling you are having an affair with to have an abortion is a story that will destroy Boris's female vote.
Likewise being fired not once but twice having been caught out lying.0 -
Let's do that.HYUFD said:
Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for BorisNigelb said:
May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.HYUFD said:
10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a jokeCarlottaVance said:
You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?0 -
See my posts! The point of proroguing was to avoid no deal whilst making it look like he wanted no deal. It has worked spectularly well.Stark_Dawning said:
My head's spinning a bit. Can someone remind what the point of proroguing was in the first place?eek said:
Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”
As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.
And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.0 -
JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday0
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Alanbrooke said:
Boris character is hardly a surprise, the electorate are well aware of it. When all parties go down the route of character attacks they simply raise the issue that "theyre all like that" and damage themselves in the process.El_Capitano said:This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.
“He’s a lying git who’ll do anything, and break any rule, to get what he wants” isn’t a problem for you if you think he wants to achieve what you want. Instead he just sounds effective. It’s the Urquhart factor.0 -
But they did abstain and he did get a big majority of votes for it. If they abstain they are not against nor in favour, if they move from abstain to voting no they are actively blocking. Nobody is going to buy that it's for anything other than party advantage and 'screw the country/voters'. Its simply not a tenable position to be in favour of an election and vote against oneeek said:
Only because most people intentionally abstained as it needed 434 votes to be carried and there wasn't 434 MPs in the house.dyedwoolie said:
He got a very big majority for an election last night, not enough however under FTPA, he can argue there is a clear majority for an election (289 to 58)and propose an amendment to the FTPA Monday and labour have to actively block him, showing they are playing it for party mot countryeek said:
Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”
As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.
And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.0 -
I think they will show an increased lead.HYUFD said:
Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for BorisNigelb said:
May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.HYUFD said:
10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a jokeCarlottaVance said:
You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?
Still think Jezza will work his 2017 magic against the most extreme right wing Tories ever up for Election by the time the 22.00 Exit Poll is out in November GE0 -
Good thing Corbyn doesn't have past form on being a stupid communist...eek said:
Boris has past form which can be brought up that others just don't have.Alanbrooke said:
Boris character is hardly a surprise, the electorate are well aware of it. When all parties go down the route of character attacks they simply raise the issue that "theyre all like that" and damage themselves in the process.El_Capitano said:This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.
Encouraging the underling you are having an affair with to have an abortion is a story that will destroy Boris's female vote.
Likewise being fired not once but twice having been caught out lying.0 -
Can't Bercow refuse this?Big_G_NorthWales said:JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday
0 -
I doubt there's any vote costing backlash against Labour for not agreeing a new election. There might be if they are seen as holding up Brexit progress. But there has to be an election for that to kick in. Most of denigrating Labour for not ploughing full steam ahead to an election are those that want to see them crushed. That's hardly Labour's agenda.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”0 -
The anti-Corbyn cult have trained their brains to never be deterred, or even hesitate, when they're proven wrong. They just move onto the next narrative, no matter how totally contradictory it is to the one they believed a few days earlier.Benpointer said:Jeez that's a warped conclusion. Labour turn delay a chance to win and election in order to protect the country from a No Deal exit during the campaign and they are 'playing it for party not country'?!
Where are all those PBers who were only recently saying Corbyn wanted a No Deal exit so that he could cash in on the chaos?
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It's not this weekends polls that interest me. Give it another fortnight...Nigelb said:
Let's do that.HYUFD said:
Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for BorisNigelb said:
May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.HYUFD said:
10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a jokeCarlottaVance said:
You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?0 -
It's a joke based on the fact that Mrs Thatcher used to use it, since it's a Lincolnshire word, where she grew up.noneoftheabove said:Why do politicians tend to say frit instead of afraid? I dont think I have ever heard anyone other than a politician use the word, but politicians seem to prefer it to afraid/scared/frightened.
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If he wants to fuck over the electorate yesAramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Can't Bercow refuse this?Big_G_NorthWales said:JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday
0 -
No but Chuka might be in 2024Benpointer said:
I think it's very, very unlikely but...Gabs2 said:
The problen is the Remain side are split and Labour cannot unite them because the leadership are such terrible people. If the Lib Dems get enough of a boost to surpass Corbyn in the polls, there could be a flood of voters to them.Tabman said:
...the LDs would represent something different in the eyes of many (in E&W) who are disillusioned with the established main parties.
Could Swinson become our Macron?0 -
We could be on our way back to our Tory/Con -Whig/Liberal roots with Labour turning out to be a 20th Centuary anomaly.HYUFD said:
The election after next maybe, if they overtake or get close to overtaking Labour this time which polls suggest they could the LDs then become the main centre left alternative to the Tories leaving Labour with just the hard left, much like the Canadian Liberals or now En Marche in France are the main left liberal alternative to the rightGabs2 said:
Luciana Berger is a real talent. I think the Lib Dems could win the next election.HYUFD said:LDs now up to 16 MPs with Berger's defection, they now have double the number of MPs they had in 2015
Then again there's been a lot of discussion about that on PB over the years but Labour always keeps going in the end. 0 -
A vote for Tory Swinson is a vote to allow Johnson through the middleBenpointer said:
I think it's very, very unlikely but...Gabs2 said:
The problen is the Remain side are split and Labour cannot unite them because the leadership are such terrible people. If the Lib Dems get enough of a boost to surpass Corbyn in the polls, there could be a flood of voters to them.Tabman said:
...the LDs would represent something different in the eyes of many (in E&W) who are disillusioned with the established main parties.
Could Swinson become our Macron?0 -
Corbyn should table a VONC instead.CarlottaVance said:1 -
In theory he can, an election was requested this week and it should be once per a Parliamentary session.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Can't Bercow refuse this?Big_G_NorthWales said:JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday
Mind you that rule has been broken a few times so lets see what happens. I guess it comes down to what has changed and whether that change is significant enough.
Bercow if he was really cruel could call the election debate before the final reading of Benn's act.0 -
That even his brother doesn't trust him will be a surprise to most, and an indication of his extreme untrustworthyness.Alanbrooke said:
Boris character is hardly a surprise, the electorate are well aware of it. When all parties go down the route of character attacks they simply raise the issue that "theyre all like that" and damage themselves in the process.El_Capitano said:This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.
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0
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In practical terms what do you consider working his magic?bigjohnowls said:
I think they will show an increased lead.HYUFD said:
Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for BorisNigelb said:
May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.HYUFD said:
10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a jokeCarlottaVance said:
You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?
Still think Jezza will work his 2017 magic against the most extreme right wing Tories ever up for Election by the time the 22.00 Exit Poll is out in November GE
1. Labour majority?
2. Biggest party?
3. Can form minority govt if others agree?
4. Can block no deal?
I would expect either 3 or 4 but not 1 or 2.0 -
https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1169578458810331137
Holy schmoley ! The wheels are coming off.0 -
He could vote to amend the FTPA, it's different legislation.eek said:
Yep - an election was requested this week and it should be once per a Parliamentary session.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Can't Bercow refuse this?Big_G_NorthWales said:JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday
Mind you that rule has been broken a few times so lets see what happens.0 -
I think straightforwardly to stop debate that could expose Tory splits.Stark_Dawning said:
My head's spinning a bit. Can someone remind what the point of proroguing was in the first place?eek said:
Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.numbertwelve said:There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.
I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”
As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.
And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.
I know .... It didn't quite work out.0 -
Labour will still exist much as the Socialists and Melenchon do in France or the more left-wing New Democrats do in Canada but generally they would be third with the LDs and Tories fighting for firstGIN1138 said:
We could be on our way back to our Tory/Con -Whig/Liberal roots with Labour turning out to be a 20th Centuary anomaly.HYUFD said:
The election after next maybe, if they overtake or get close to overtaking Labour this time which polls suggest they could the LDs then become the main centre left alternative to the Tories leaving Labour with just the hard left, much like the Canadian Liberals or now En Marche in France are the main left liberal alternative to the rightGabs2 said:
Luciana Berger is a real talent. I think the Lib Dems could win the next election.HYUFD said:LDs now up to 16 MPs with Berger's defection, they now have double the number of MPs they had in 2015
Then again there's been a lot of discussion about that on PB over the years but Labour always keeps going in the end.0 -
This needs turning into a bar chartCarlottaVance said:LibDems and graphics!
https://twitter.com/leonardocarella/status/1169577237110284288?s=20 2
