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  • eek said:

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    Yep - an election was requested this week and it should be once per a Parliamentary session.

    Mind you that rule has been broken a few times so lets see what happens.
    I thought it would need to be substantially different, so amended, not just 'oh, go on, give us an election'.

    Could just be a ruse to allow B. Johnson to resign, rather than go to the EU and ask for an A50 extension.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    @HYUFD genuine question, no need to go into details, I am not trying to trickm or embarrass you. I have to ask do you have any small doubts or concerns about the performance of the Johnson administration this week? Or do you genuinely believe that everything is going as planned and that things are all working out well?

  • HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a joke
    May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.

    You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?
    Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for Boris
    Haven't you been saying for months now that the Tories would do badly in the next election if we're still in the EU after Oct 31st? Do you not believe that's the case any more, or do you think this week hasn't made that outcome any more likely?
    Boris needs to go on TV each and every day and explain that Labour is forcing a post-31 October election precisely so that he has to sign a piece of paper surrendering Britain to the EU.

    Boris: Well, here's that piece of paper [lifts up copy of extension agreement].
    Vote for me on Nov 7 and this is what I'll do to it [rips up copy of extension agreement].

    Rinse and repeat, cannibalize BXP, keep the voters who fear Corbyn more than Brexit. Profit!
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Jonathan said:

    Genuine question, is there a conservative moderating force in number

    Mrs May tried this for 3 years - failed.

    There is no point in trying that again.

    Courage and shuffle the cards as Flashy would say.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    Interesting that four MPs have crossed to the LDs - two Labour and two Tory.

    Reinforces their credentials as the sensible centre.
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    eek said:

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    Yep - an election was requested this week and it should be once per a Parliamentary session.

    Mind you that rule has been broken a few times so lets see what happens.
    Sorry but that’s not right. The FTPA has to be treated differently, else if you won one vote of no confidence you’d not have to face another one that session, whatever happened. It would be very eccentric for any speaker to suggest that any vote under the FTPA could only happen once.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    The vast majority (on both leave and remain sides) who seem to believe that he really is going for no deal cannot explain why he went for prorogation dates that had no benefit at all for delivering no deal?

    If he wanted prorogation to deliver no deal it would have been a month later.
    If he thought that was too controversial it would have been no prorogation.
    The dates he chose can only have been to signal to his followers how committed he is to no deal, whilst at the same time making no deal on Oct 31 extremely unlikely.

    They achieved nothing to help with no deal, and plenty that blocked it.

    I'm still holding that view a little bit.

    So, ultimately, you think a Boris Deal passes?

    Most likely an election first - that he wins - and then a Deal?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    eek said:

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    Yep - an election was requested this week and it should be once per a Parliamentary session.

    Mind you that rule has been broken a few times so lets see what happens.
    He could vote to amend the FTPA, it's different legislation.
    And if Nicola goes for it it'll be game on.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    That will make the decision to Prorogue wonderfully ironic.
    Perhaps Mr Johnson will start providing evidence to the courts that Proroguing was after all illegal!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    eek said:

    This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.

    Boris character is hardly a surprise, the electorate are well aware of it. When all parties go down the route of character attacks they simply raise the issue that "theyre all like that" and damage themselves in the process.
    Boris has past form which can be brought up that others just don't have.

    Encouraging the underling you are having an affair with to have an abortion is a story that will destroy Boris's female vote.

    Likewise being fired not once but twice having been caught out lying.
    "Boris has past form" - and Corbyn doesnt ? I mean he has a charge sheet as long as BoJo but just on other issues.

    Normally its routine to claim that the next election will be the dirtiest ever and it rarely is, But given the lunacy at Wminster currently, this one might just live up to the billing.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Gove says he would back Theresa May’s deal again.

    PURGE HIM!
  • If Brexit is Johnson’s Falklands, should there be some Peruvian Peace Proposals in the mix to replace the backstop?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    eristdoof said:

    That will make the decision to Prorogue wonderfully ironic.
    Perhaps Mr Johnson will start providing evidence to the courts that Proroguing was after all illegal!

    Have they settled the precise date parliament will be prorogued yet?

    IIRC it was felxible, between 9th and 12th September.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    eek said:

    eek said:

    There seems to be a bit of a move in Labour to want a GE after 31 October.

    I think this is them pushing it a little bit too far. The delay for the passage of the Brexit Bill at least has the vague sense of arguability that they’re making sure Boris doesn’t push the GE date beyond Brexit. Any further delay is just obvious naked political advantage I don’t suspect it will go down very well. Besides, if it forces Boris to reluctantly ask for an extension he can say “look at what parliament made me do, I wanted an election.”

    Boris asked for an election last night and last - I really don't think he can ask for another one a week after his previous request.

    As soon as Parliament is prorogued the opposition can start asking for an election knowing that one cannot be called until about October 22nd due to the Queen's speech debate.

    And when the election is called it will be after 5+ weeks of people all calling for an election with Boris unable to respond with one.
    He got a very big majority for an election last night, not enough however under FTPA, he can argue there is a clear majority for an election (289 to 58)and propose an amendment to the FTPA Monday and labour have to actively block him, showing they are playing it for party mot country
    Only because most people intentionally abstained as it needed 434 votes to be carried and there wasn't 434 MPs in the house.
    But they did abstain and he did get a big majority of votes for it. If they abstain they are not against nor in favour, if they move from abstain to voting no they are actively blocking. Nobody is going to buy that it's for anything other than party advantage and 'screw the country/voters'. Its simply not a tenable position to be in favour of an election and vote against one
    The complaint that Corbyn isn't allowing an election will be pathetic once Labour has voted for an election.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    edited September 2019
    Jonathan said:
    I think Corbyn does that immediately before this (the election) debate and after Benn's act is passed.

    Then he can argue against the election as he doesn't want Boris in charge.

    JRM/Boris can then prorogue Parliament having failed to get an election or lose the VONC the following day.
  • eristdoof said:

    That will make the decision to Prorogue wonderfully ironic.
    Perhaps Mr Johnson will start providing evidence to the courts that Proroguing was after all illegal!

    The parliamentary and governmental situation until then may turn towards the bizarre, in that case.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    It does if the commons cannot propose an alternative PM in 14 days. It would make the election Oct 28th I think if it went through?
  • kinabalu said:

    The vast majority (on both leave and remain sides) who seem to believe that he really is going for no deal cannot explain why he went for prorogation dates that had no benefit at all for delivering no deal?

    If he wanted prorogation to deliver no deal it would have been a month later.
    If he thought that was too controversial it would have been no prorogation.
    The dates he chose can only have been to signal to his followers how committed he is to no deal, whilst at the same time making no deal on Oct 31 extremely unlikely.

    They achieved nothing to help with no deal, and plenty that blocked it.

    I'm still holding that view a little bit.

    So, ultimately, you think a Boris Deal passes?

    Most likely an election first - that he wins - and then a Deal?
    If he gets a majority of 30+ we get a deal around end of the year. The EU will be happier to negotiate solely with a govt and not having to also manage the hung parliament.
    If he gets a majority less than 30 - not sure what happens
    If he doesnt get a majority - none of the other parties will touch him with a bargepole and he will have escaped responsibility for no deal, and have a loyal base for a future comeback, probably not straight away.
  • If Brexit is Johnson’s Falklands, should there be some Peruvian Peace Proposals in the mix to replace the backstop?

    It's the Peruvian marching powder I'm worried about.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    But what about the risk of it passing, no alternative government being found, and Boris calling an election for after Oct 31?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr JS,

    Frit was used regularly where I grew up (in Boston), although it was 'frit to death' more often.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a joke
    May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.

    You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?
    Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for Boris
    Haven't you been saying for months now that the Tories would do badly in the next election if we're still in the EU after Oct 31st? Do you not believe that's the case any more, or do you think this week hasn't made that outcome any more likely?
    No, as Boris has voted against extension. Had he extended of his own free will it would have been a disaster but if Boris only extends as the law requires him to but still promises to Leave as soon as he gets the Tories a majority I doubt that affects his rating at all, in fact it probably boosts it further in opposition to diehard Remainer MPs


  • TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Genuine question, is there a conservative moderating force in number

    Mrs May tried this for 3 years - failed.

    There is no point in trying that again.

    Courage and shuffle the cards as Flashy would say.
    That self confess coward, liar and scoundrel.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    GIN1138 said:

    eek said:

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    Yep - an election was requested this week and it should be once per a Parliamentary session.

    Mind you that rule has been broken a few times so lets see what happens.
    He could vote to amend the FTPA, it's different legislation.
    And if Nicola goes for it it'll be game on.
    That has to go through the Lords and could be blocked there.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Dura_Ace said:

    Gove says he would back Theresa May’s deal again.

    PURGE HIM!
    The diehard retainers are becoming diehard remainers...
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    It does if the commons cannot propose an alternative PM in 14 days. It would make the election Oct 28th I think if it went through?
    Or thurs oct 31st, purdah till 10pm on Brexit day
  • blueblue said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a joke
    May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.

    You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?
    Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for Boris
    Haven't you been saying for months now that the Tories would do badly in the next election if we're still in the EU after Oct 31st? Do you not believe that's the case any more, or do you think this week hasn't made that outcome any more likely?
    Boris needs to go on TV each and every day and explain that Labour is forcing a post-31 October election precisely so that he has to sign a piece of paper surrendering Britain to the EU.

    Boris: Well, here's that piece of paper [lifts up copy of extension agreement].
    Vote for me on Nov 7 and this is what I'll do to it [rips up copy of extension agreement].

    Rinse and repeat, cannibalize BXP, keep the voters who fear Corbyn more than Brexit. Profit!
    And the opposition will reply that you can't trust Boris to keep his word about anything. If he wins he will bring back May's deal/go over the cliff (depending on which opposition party we are talking about).

    You can't trust Boris.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    eristdoof said:

    =
    The complaint that Corbyn isn't allowing an election will be pathetic once Labour has voted for an election.

    Yeah exactly. It's a bizarre choice of attack line.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Last night the FTPA did the job it was designed to do.

    A Prime Minister shouldn't be able to call a snap election just because it benefits him. Both sides of the house have to agree.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    But what about the risk of it passing, no alternative government being found, and Boris calling an election for after Oct 31?
    Boris will have to, by law, request an a50 extension because of the new Act.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    The 'Do Not Prorogue' petition has levelled off at just over 1.7m but I am expecting a lot more signatures to come flooding in from hard Brexiteers who realise that prorogation is now boxing them into an extension beyond 31 October. :wink:

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
  • eristdoof said:

    =
    The complaint that Corbyn isn't allowing an election will be pathetic once Labour has voted for an election.

    Yeah exactly. It's a bizarre choice of attack line.
    Its a here today, gone tomorrow line. It wont have much impact on floating voters in 6-10 weeks time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    And the UK apparently a one party state come November.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    But what about the risk of it passing, no alternative government being found, and Boris calling an election for after Oct 31?
    Boris will have to, by law, request an a50 extension because of the new Act.
    He may. He may also attach conditions to any request.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    But what about the risk of it passing, no alternative government being found, and Boris calling an election for after Oct 31?
    Boris will have to, by law, request an a50 extension because of the new Act.
    And if he says "I'm not signing it - either call an election, VONC me, or go **** yourselves"?
  • blueblue said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    But what about the risk of it passing, no alternative government being found, and Boris calling an election for after Oct 31?
    Boris will have to, by law, request an a50 extension because of the new Act.
    And if he says "I'm not signing it - either call an election, VONC me, or go **** yourselves"?
    To misquote our friend Mr Trump, "Lock him up"
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    The one thing Corbyn does need to do over the weekend is come up with an actual, alternative date for the election. Say "it should be on [x] of November of December" then challenge Boris to back it, and if he refuses, asking him why he's so "frit" of the scrutiny that would come with a long campaign.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    eek said:

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    Yep - an election was requested this week and it should be once per a Parliamentary session.

    Mind you that rule has been broken a few times so lets see what happens.
    He could vote to amend the FTPA, it's different legislation.
    And if Nicola goes for it it'll be game on.
    That has to go through the Lords and could be blocked there.
    Good luck labour selling that to the electorate. 'We whipped our unelected Lords to stop you having a vote. But we want a vote 2 weeks later. We will tell you when you may vote, you will comply'
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Scott_P said:
    They do know that he's not (or, rather, wasn't) the PM, don't they?
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,878

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    I'm not sure he could. Its not a bill being brought back unaltered. Its a HoC vote for a GE.
    If he could/did, it would be politically 'brave'.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    edited September 2019
    blueblue said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    But what about the risk of it passing, no alternative government being found, and Boris calling an election for after Oct 31?
    Boris will have to, by law, request an a50 extension because of the new Act.
    And if he says "I'm not signing it - either call an election, VONC me, or go **** yourselves"?
    He will be in contempt of parliament... Lock him up! :wink:
  • blueblue said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a joke
    May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.

    You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?
    Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for Boris
    Haven't you been saying for months now that the Tories would do badly in the next election if we're still in the EU after Oct 31st? Do you not believe that's the case any more, or do you think this week hasn't made that outcome any more likely?
    Boris needs to go on TV each and every day and explain that Labour is forcing a post-31 October election precisely so that he has to sign a piece of paper surrendering Britain to the EU.

    Boris: Well, here's that piece of paper [lifts up copy of extension agreement].
    Vote for me on Nov 7 and this is what I'll do to it [rips up copy of extension agreement].

    Rinse and repeat, cannibalize BXP, keep the voters who fear Corbyn more than Brexit. Profit!
    And the opposition will reply that you can't trust Boris to keep his word about anything. If he wins he will bring back May's deal/go over the cliff (depending on which opposition party we are talking about).

    You can't trust Boris.
    But you can trust Corbyn to be a loony lefty. Hence the extreme difficulty he'll have in winning a majority.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Danny565 said:

    The one thing Corbyn does need to do over the weekend is come up with an actual, alternative date for the election. Say "it should be on [x] of November of December" then challenge Boris to back it, and if he refuses, asking him why he's so "frit" of the scrutiny that would come with a long campaign.

    He also doesn’t need bad polls as the breadcrumbs to his election chicken.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
  • Scott_P said:
    Which is on Monday and fulfils Corbyn's statement in the HOC when he said labour would vote for a GE once the Act received RA
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a joke
    May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.

    You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?
    Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for Boris
    Haven't you been saying for months now that the Tories would do badly in the next election if we're still in the EU after Oct 31st? Do you not believe that's the case any more, or do you think this week hasn't made that outcome any more likely?
    No, as Boris has voted against extension. Had he extended of his own free will it would have been a disaster but if Boris only extends as the law requires him to but still promises to Leave as soon as he gets the Tories a majority I doubt that affects his rating at all, in fact it probably boosts it further in opposition to diehard Remainer MPs


    This is an outright lie. If the search facility on this forum was decent I would find the your posts. You clearly wrote, that if we had not Brexited by the 31st of October then tories would lose huge numbers of votes to the Brexit party.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    It seems rather likely that the bill will pass, pro roguing will go ahead and Boris won't agree an extension with the EU and thus we leave with no deal.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    Danny565 said:

    This "can't be trusted" line on Johnson has the potential to stick. It seems to have suddenly surfaced as the no 1 Labour attack line - whether as an edict from Labour HQ or (more likely) other MPs following Jess Phillips' lead.

    It is perfect. Simple line, plenty of evidence - even his own brother doesn't trust him etc etc.
    Yes if only there was a conference season where every man and his dog will take credit for shackling Boris and frustrating the result of the referendum. Then Boris will have plenty of quotes to use in his own speech as to why he tried everything he could including offering an election and Parliament refused. I’m pretty sure they already have the montage of clips of senior labour politician demanding an election

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Scott_P said:
    the French always laugh at us and we them
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    If he gets a majority of 30+ we get a deal around end of the year. The EU will be happier to negotiate solely with a govt and not having to also manage the hung parliament.
    If he gets a majority less than 30 - not sure what happens
    If he doesnt get a majority - none of the other parties will touch him with a bargepole and he will have escaped responsibility for no deal, and have a loyal base for a future comeback, probably not straight away.

    That was broadly the rationale for my (quite big!) lay of 2019 No Deal.

    He must win an election if he wants to do it.

    But if he wins an election he can do a Deal instead.
  • Nigelb said:

    And the UK apparently a one party state come November.
    Not really a problem, as extrapolating from the graph within a few months the whole country will be Libdem MPs. The issue for me would be where we will get enough immigrants to get the future Libdem MPs after that? How we would manage the point scoring system?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    I'm not sure he could. Its not a bill being brought back unaltered. Its a HoC vote for a GE.
    If he could/did, it would be politically 'brave'.
    In any event, it will still need a 2/3rds majority, so Corbyn holds the power.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    What a piece of shit Johnson is. Even his brother can't stick him....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Jonathan said:

    @HYUFD genuine question, no need to go into details, I am not trying to trickm or embarrass you. I have to ask do you have any small doubts or concerns about the performance of the Johnson administration this week? Or do you genuinely believe that everything is going as planned and that things are all working out well?

    They are going well, the images of diehard Remainer MPs and Corbyn blocking Boris delivering Brexit is all that matters
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    No as Swinson would veto Corbyn as PM
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    But what about the risk of it passing, no alternative government being found, and Boris calling an election for after Oct 31?
    Boris will have to, by law, request an a50 extension because of the new Act.
    He may. He may also attach conditions to any request.
    I request an extension to Jan 31 2020, and Calais back.
  • eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    You seem very scared of a GE
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    GIN1138 said:

    And if Nicola goes for it it'll be game on.

    On GE timing, I expect the SNP to play ball with Jez not Johnson.

    Be rather shocked if they don't.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    No as Swinson would veto Corbyn as PM
    That would send a lot of Lab -> Lib switchers back to Labour and help attract more potential Con -> Lib switchers.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    edited September 2019

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    You seem very scared of a GE
    Nope - I just want it after October 31st...

    Edit to add - because Boris cannot be trusted.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Surely Heidi Allen must be next in the drip drip drip of new Lib Dems
  • eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    You seem very scared of a GE
    Because he knows commie Corbyn would get creamed.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    Isn't HoC proroguing on after Monday ?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr G,

    "You seem very scared of a GE."

    He's frit to death on it, to use the current political vernacular.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    But what about the risk of it passing, no alternative government being found, and Boris calling an election for after Oct 31?
    Boris will have to, by law, request an a50 extension because of the new Act.
    He may. He may also attach conditions to any request.
    I request an extension to Jan 31 2020, and Calais back.
    I request an extension but I am afraid there is no budget for any contributions.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    You seem very scared of a GE
    Nope - I just want it after October 31st...

    Edit to add - because Boris cannot be trusted.
    This "scared" line is nonsensical. Why would somebody be scared of an election now but not in November?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    kinabalu said:

    GIN1138 said:

    And if Nicola goes for it it'll be game on.

    On GE timing, I expect the SNP to play ball with Jez not Johnson.

    Be rather shocked if they don't.
    Their position is to secure an election before prorogation
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    Isn't HoC proroguing on after Monday ?
    All the more reason to ask for a VONC if it can't be debated because of Government tricks...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    You seem very scared of a GE
    Nope - I just want it after October 31st...

    Edit to add - because Boris cannot be trusted.
    If he can't be trusted then how can he be trusted to sign the letter before the 31st ?
  • JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    I'm not sure he could. Its not a bill being brought back unaltered. Its a HoC vote for a GE.
    If he could/did, it would be politically 'brave'.
    In any event, it will still need a 2/3rds majority, so Corbyn holds the power.
    With respect Ben, the SNP hold the power. If they agree 15th October Corbyn will be snookered
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    blueblue said:

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    You seem very scared of a GE
    Because he knows commie Corbyn would get creamed.
    I am "afraid" of a GE on Johnson's terms because it would benefit... Johnson. It is good politics to not allow him what he wants. A GE after 31st Oct is beneficial to every party leader not named Boris Johnson.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    Scott_P said:
    Which is on Monday and fulfils Corbyn's statement in the HOC when he said labour would vote for a GE once the Act received RA
    Politically much better for Corbyn to force Boris to extend A50.

    But he needs to tread carefully and it will be interesting to see what explanation Labour can come up with as to why they favour a post 31 Oct election.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    You seem very scared of a GE
    Nope - I just want it after October 31st...

    Edit to add - because Boris cannot be trusted.
    Downthread you were saying didnt want Corbyn as PM either. They will both simply slag each other to a standstill.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    This is an article which is both fairly devastating about Biden, and at the same time an explanation of his enduring popularity:
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/joe-biden-iraq-vote-what-now.html

    I'm not convinced that constantly reflecting the opinions of the average US voter (as they change over time) is quite the qualification for actually leading the country...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    I'm not sure he could. Its not a bill being brought back unaltered. Its a HoC vote for a GE.
    If he could/did, it would be politically 'brave'.
    In any event, it will still need a 2/3rds majority, so Corbyn holds the power.
    With respect Ben, the SNP hold the power. If they agree 15th October Corbyn will be snookered
    Do Labour have any Lord True on their side in the Lords ?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    I'm not sure he could. Its not a bill being brought back unaltered. Its a HoC vote for a GE.
    If he could/did, it would be politically 'brave'.
    In any event, it will still need a 2/3rds majority, so Corbyn holds the power.
    With respect Ben, the SNP hold the power. If they agree 15th October Corbyn will be snookered
    How? Con + SNP doesn't = 2/3rds
  • JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    I'm not sure he could. Its not a bill being brought back unaltered. Its a HoC vote for a GE.
    If he could/did, it would be politically 'brave'.
    In any event, it will still need a 2/3rds majority, so Corbyn holds the power.
    With respect Ben, the SNP hold the power. If they agree 15th October Corbyn will be snookered
    They must be tempted to get a GE win on the board before the Salmond case hits the courts, and all the dirty linen is aired.
  • HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    No as Swinson would veto Corbyn as PM
    Hardly a surprise as politically she is far closer to Boris Johnson than Jeremy Corbyn. It would not surprise me if she would prop up a Tory government after the GE in exchange for a workaround on Brexit. Leopards and spots and all that.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    I'm not sure he could. Its not a bill being brought back unaltered. Its a HoC vote for a GE.
    If he could/did, it would be politically 'brave'.
    In any event, it will still need a 2/3rds majority, so Corbyn holds the power.
    With respect Ben, the SNP hold the power. If they agree 15th October Corbyn will be snookered
    SNP MP on 5live at lunchtime seemed to suggest they are thinking the same as Labour.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    You seem very scared of a GE
    Nope - I just want it after October 31st...

    Edit to add - because Boris cannot be trusted.
    If he can't be trusted then how can he be trusted to sign the letter before the 31st ?
    He can't, but it will be easier to get Parliament (and/or possibly the courts) to intervene outside of an election period.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    148grss said:

    blueblue said:

    eek said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    Listening to JRM announcing the next attempt at the GE, Bercow was very relaxed and, believe it or not, there was a good humoured exchange between the two.

    Labour did not object so Monday is decision time for Corbyn
    Nope - Monday Corbyn says he wants a VONC.

    That allows him to repeat during the election debate that Boris cannot be trusted.

    Then on Tuesday we see how the VONC plays out and on Wednesday there can always be another election debate if Boris wins the VONC (he won't).
    You seem very scared of a GE
    Because he knows commie Corbyn would get creamed.
    I am "afraid" of a GE on Johnson's terms because it would benefit... Johnson. It is good politics to not allow him what he wants. A GE after 31st Oct is beneficial to every party leader not named Boris Johnson.
    Thankyou ;), the real reason isn't that Johnson can't be trusted - it is the wish to either humiliate him by making him sign the letter, be forced to resign or break the law.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    TGOHF said:
    FFS if they saw what happens to male chicks....
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    I'm not sure he could. Its not a bill being brought back unaltered. Its a HoC vote for a GE.
    If he could/did, it would be politically 'brave'.
    In any event, it will still need a 2/3rds majority, so Corbyn holds the power.
    With respect Ben, the SNP hold the power. If they agree 15th October Corbyn will be snookered
    Not at all. Con + SNP does not exceed 2/3rds of the HoC.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    Likely to be a totally bifurcated view in the country of all these coming and goings. The confirmation bias is strong on this website. Let’s see some polls gang before jumping to any hasty conclusions.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    But what about the risk of it passing, no alternative government being found, and Boris calling an election for after Oct 31?
    Boris will have to, by law, request an a50 extension because of the new Act.
    He may. He may also attach conditions to any request.
    I request an extension to Jan 31 2020, and Calais back.
    I request an extension but I am afraid there is no budget for any contributions.
    Or demand a rebate due to the effect of the EUs delay in agreeing an acceptable deal on the British taxpayer
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why ? He doesn't want an election before 31st October.
    A VONC doesn't necessarily lead to an election at all let alone before 31 Oct, but it does solve the problem of the Tories calling him frit. He could get into no10 to enact yesterdays Bill.
    No as Swinson would veto Corbyn as PM
    That would send a lot of Lab -> Lib switchers back to Labour and help attract more potential Con -> Lib switchers.
    As Corbyn cannot win a majority I'm hoping that that is the case. It's one reason why I don't mind Corbyn leading things now as Labour cannot win a majority anymore and if Labour lose a few seats it's valid that the Lib Dems and SNP ask for another leader in return for support. Corbyn having been PM may well accept that.
  • Surely Heidi Allen must be next in the drip drip drip of new Lib Dems

    Allen seemed to be genuinely interested in staying independent to help coordinate cooperation between the different remain parties. With an extra clutch of Independent Conservatives she may feel she can do more good from a less partisan position than as a member of the Lib Dems - though of course the imminence of a general election may have an influence.
  • blueblue said:

    blueblue said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    10% Tory poll lead some disaster, the Westminster commentariat so out of touch now it is beyond a joke
    May I gently remind you of Mrs. May's polling lead prior to the last election.

    You surely cannot deny that the last few days have been... sub-optimal for the Prime Minister ?
    Wait until the weekend polls, then we will see what a 'disaster' it has been for Boris
    Haven't you been saying for months now that the Tories would do badly in the next election if we're still in the EU after Oct 31st? Do you not believe that's the case any more, or do you think this week hasn't made that outcome any more likely?
    Boris needs to go on TV each and every day and explain that Labour is forcing a post-31 October election precisely so that he has to sign a piece of paper surrendering Britain to the EU.

    Boris: Well, here's that piece of paper [lifts up copy of extension agreement].
    Vote for me on Nov 7 and this is what I'll do to it [rips up copy of extension agreement].

    Rinse and repeat, cannibalize BXP, keep the voters who fear Corbyn more than Brexit. Profit!
    And the opposition will reply that you can't trust Boris to keep his word about anything. If he wins he will bring back May's deal/go over the cliff (depending on which opposition party we are talking about).

    You can't trust Boris.
    But you can trust Corbyn to be a loony lefty. Hence the extreme difficulty he'll have in winning a majority.
    Certainly, but the issue at this election is whether or not the Tories get a majority. If they don't Brexit is over.
  • JRM announces another attempt on a GE in the HOC on Monday

    Can't Bercow refuse this?
    I'm not sure he could. Its not a bill being brought back unaltered. Its a HoC vote for a GE.
    If he could/did, it would be politically 'brave'.
    In any event, it will still need a 2/3rds majority, so Corbyn holds the power.
    With respect Ben, the SNP hold the power. If they agree 15th October Corbyn will be snookered
    How? Con + SNP doesn't = 2/3rds
    It would be politically impossible for Corbyn to say no
This discussion has been closed.