politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As we approach the slightly later than planned day of reckonin
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So you “have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people [you] employ, the people [you] pass in the street”?OnlyLivingBoy said:
I believe I am a citizen of the world. So yes.Philip_Thompson said:
But we also value something else: the spirit of citizenship.OnlyLivingBoy said:
That's bollocks. I watched the speech live in its entirety. I have never dodged a penny in tax. I heard the speech as a petty-minded attack on people who are open to the world, and I can tell you that work colleagues and friends heard it in exactly those terms too. People from abroad who have made their home here and pay their taxes told me they never imagined they'd hear a British PM say something like that. It was a watershed moment for many (not me, I've had May's number for years).Charles said:
Bollocks
Malign individuals deliberately misrepresented what she meant by “citizens of nowhere” - it was tax-dodging individuals and companies not ordinary Remain voters. Sadly people like you fell for it.
That spirit that means you respect the bonds and obligations that make our society work. That means a commitment to the men and women who live around you, who work for you, who buy the goods and services you sell.
That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says you train up local young people before you take on cheap labour from overseas.
That spirit that means you do as others do, and pay your fair share of tax.
But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.
But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.
So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff…
An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…
A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…
A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…
I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.
A change has got to come. And this party – the Conservative Party – is going to make that change.
You thought that was aimed at you?
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Some leavers - others thought they were doing their jobsAlastairMeeks said:
I don’t notice that either. In the last two years Leavers have labelled judges enemies of the people and sought to abolish the House of Lords when they acted in a manner Leavers didn’t like.Luckyguy1983 said:
I don't want to rehearse the arguments, but I don't know any leaver who thinks we will be poorer in the long term. We just have very different views on the optimal circumstances for wealth creation. At any rate, we must concede that we can potentially prosper inside or outside, it would be silly to argue otherwise.AlastairMeeks said:
There is plenty of evidence that a lot of Leavers want the country to be inward looking and are willing to sacrifice wealth for leaving the EU. So even your bland examples fall down.Luckyguy1983 said:It would be nice, as a thought exercise, to see if there's really any common ground between hardcore remainers and leavers on PB, on even the blandest and most inoffensive aspirations. For example, we appear to both want the country to be wealthy. We appear to both want the country to be outward looking. Perhaps there are more examples of common ground.
Perhaps leavers do want us to be more inward looking as a trend than outward looking.
Perhaps there is more common ground in that both groups are in favour of rigorously upholding the law.0 -
I've got it on CD somewhere. Haven't played it since 1998 or thereabouts.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
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That, and the compulsory organ harvesting of the dead, have been the two things that have driven me closer to resigning my membership than anything else.Pulpstar said:A week to go till the Tories insane porno ban isnt it ?
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Not strange at all, Andy. Everyone in Bristol West who wanted to sign has now done so and they've all gone down the pub.AndyJS said:Very strange — the total number of signatures has increased several times but Bristol West has been stuck on 23,087.
It is Friday, you know.0 -
It is indeed. It is an obviously wise measure designed to protect ourselves from the sight of unseemly things that may give us funny ideas. And I'm sure absolutely nobody will Google "top ten free VPNs" and hence obtain software that would enable one to bypass such wise and noble safeguards. That would be terrible.HYUFD said:
It is not a porno ban, just an age vericatio requirement to access it e.g. with driving license etc which 67% of the public supportsPulpstar said:A week to go till the Tories insane porno ban isnt it ?
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/technology/articles-reports/2019/03/18/britains-porn-watchers-likely-be-caught-their-pant0 -
I see only problems. First, and most importantly, the MPs lied about honouring the referendum. It may be un-parliamentary language but it's the truth. They mouthed platitudes because they didn't want to be seen to be undemocratic, but there's no way they'd let it go through when they could obstruct it.
More unforgivable is the pretence. The fault-line has been exposed, and perhaps the proud confident morning never existed. The cabal has spoken, we have representative democracy without representation. So be it. There are honourable exceptions, but they are few. MPs think they have won, but it's all based on a lie.
I never had great faith in politicians, but now, I actively distrust them. Expenses … mere greed, but dishonesty is unforgivable, and childish dishonesty even worse.
I'm not important in the great scheme of things, the useless of lump of lard we have has an MP can sleep soundly. I never go on marches or sign petitions, but if I feel this way, there will be many more.
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It was a defined term by MayStereotomy said:
"Patriots should stop hating people from other countries."Richard_Nabavi said:
Here you go:OnlyLivingBoy said:
That's bollocks. I watched the speech live in its entirety. I have never dodged a penny in tax. I heard the speech as a petty-minded attack on people who are open to the world, and I can tell you that work colleagues and friends heard it in exactly those terms too. People from abroad who have made their home here and pay their taxes told me they never imagined they'd hear a British PM say something like that. It was a watershed moment for many (not me, I've had May's number for years).Charles said:
Bollocks
Malign individuals deliberately misrepresented what she meant by “citizens of nowhere” - it was tax-dodging individuals and companies not ordinary Remain voters. Sadly people like you fell for it.
But we also value something else: the spirit of citizenship.
That spirit that means you respect the bonds and obligations that make our society work. That means a commitment to the men and women who live around you, who work for you, who buy the goods and services you sell.
That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says you train up local young people before you take on cheap labour from overseas.
That spirit that means you do as others do, and pay your fair share of tax.
But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.
But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.
So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff…
An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…
A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…
A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…
I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.
A change has got to come. And this party – the Conservative Party – is going to make that change.
Charles was entirely right. It's a disgrace that so many people have chosen to misrepresent what Theresa May said.
See a problem with that statement? I said "patriots", but I meant "xenophobes". I bet that people who self-identify as patriots but dislike xenophobia would be pretty unhappy about hearing that, right? So how do you think somebody who self-identifies as "citizen of the world" but doesn't like tax-dodging would feel about what May said?
I don’t think I’d ever heard it used before she did0 -
People will find a way round it via the dark web rather than do that.HYUFD said:
It is not a porno ban, just an age vericatio requirement to access it e.g. with driving license etc which 67% of the public supportsPulpstar said:A week to go till the Tories insane porno ban isnt it ?
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/technology/articles-reports/2019/03/18/britains-porn-watchers-likely-be-caught-their-pant
Which will make the “problem” worse.
Stupid stupid decision.0 -
Can the 1922 Committee be lobbied to change the rules?Pulpstar said:Can Graham Brady receive letters again yet ?
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May's letter ends with desperate semi apology about upsetting MPs with her mad live speech at the podium.0
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People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
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The forgotten bit of the problem is that the overwhelming majority of remainers and leavers are centrist political moderates, for that is the political species the UK specialises in. Those millions have loads of aspirations in common, and have no plans to talk about it outside the pub, the shed and the dinner table. Brexit has, somewhat uniquely, galvanised harmless moderates into a number of competing camps whose spokespeople (like PB commenters) are not remotely typical.AlastairMeeks said:
There is plenty of evidence that a lot of Leavers want the country to be inward looking and are willing to sacrifice wealth for leaving the EU. So even your bland examples fall down.Luckyguy1983 said:It would be nice, as a thought exercise, to see if there's really any common ground between hardcore remainers and leavers on PB, on even the blandest and most inoffensive aspirations. For example, we appear to both want the country to be wealthy. We appear to both want the country to be outward looking. Perhaps there are more examples of common ground.
The takeover of both Labour and Tory parties by ludicrous extremists is not at all representative of the 31million, nearly all centrist moderates, who voted in the referendum; it also means of course that normal people won't want to join them to sit at their ridiculous and bone headed committee meetings. This is a serious problem, but, as with Brexit, the existence of a problem does not imply the existence of a solution.
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If you want to tell yourself that and ignore the fact that the comment alienated many people, including some who until recently were natural Conservative supporters, be my guest. The speech has a clear xenophobic subtext. It suggests that foreigners can only exist as either a sinister elite or as a threatening mass of cheap labour. Never as co-workers, friends, or members of your family. Stick to your own kind. It was classic dog-whistle politics. Classic May.Richard_Nabavi said:
Of course it's unambiguous. She helpfully gives a bunch of examples of what she means,and she explains exactly what the context is.OnlyLivingBoy said:
You can hardly call it unambiguous if different people watched the same speech and took entirely different messages from it. It's all part and parcel of May's repulsive provincial Little Englander mindset. It is also of course the most breathtaking hypocrisy as the Tory party exists to enable the kind of people May was referring to, or "our donors" as she calls them behind closed doors.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, it was a silly speech. That's no reason to take one phrase out of context and try to pretend it referred to people that it quite unambiguously didn't refer to.Stereotomy said:"Patriots should stop hating people from other countries."
See a problem with that statement? I said "patriots", but I meant "xenophobes". I bet that people who self-identify as patriots but dislike xenophobia would be pretty unhappy about hearing that, right? So how do you think somebody who self-identifies as "citizen of the world" but doesn't like tax-dodging would feel about what May said?
Sure, people who dislike her or dislike the Tories or hate Brexit decided to take offence by deliberately misunderstanding or (more likely) not even bothering to find out what she actually said. And it's true that a smarter politician would have been careful to give them less scope for such misrepresentation. But it's still misrepresentation.0 -
Mercer is already trying over the need for only 2 candidates to be put to membership.MarqueeMark said:
Can the 1922 Committee be lobbied to change the rules?Pulpstar said:Can Graham Brady receive letters again yet ?
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I blame TSE. I’m enjoying it.AndyJS said:
I've got it on CD somewhere. Haven't played it since 1998 or thereabouts.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
What’s wrong with me?0 -
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Maybe they've all set off for the rally in That There London......Peter_the_Punter said:
Not strange at all, Andy. Everyone in Bristol West who wanted to sign has now done so and they've all gone down the pub.AndyJS said:Very strange — the total number of signatures has increased several times but Bristol West has been stuck on 23,087.
It is Friday, you know.0 -
Boris?PoliticsSchmolitics said:Surely if there's a no confidence vote next week some tories would be tempted to abstain but what kind of psychopath would actually want to be PM right now?
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Thank you for your assistance Charles but I've always found Alastair articulates his own views perfectly well.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.AlastairMeeks said:
But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.Charles said:
Optimise the outcome *for the country* within the constraints set. Not the same.AlastairMeeks said:
To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.Charles said:
There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.AlastairMeeks said:
If you don't think it's workable as secured there is no moral requirement to engage in a fools' errand, especially one won in such a malign fashion. If those who won the referendum have no interest in your perspective, there is no moral requirement to offer it when it is unwanted.Charles said:
No. You said very simply that you have no interest in making the democratic choice of the country workableAlastairMeeks said:
I'm arguing neither of those things. When Leavers are still painting themselves in woad and labelling anyone
Your arrogance is distasteful, sir
You can't force people who think that the chosen course of action is malign and idiotic to assist you. You especially can't force them if you're calling them quislings and doubting their patriotism.
For example I believe it was a tragedy that Ireland was ever divided. But now it has been, so long as NI wants to remain part of the U.K. it should be able to.
And I will work to optimise the outcome for the U.K. within the constraint of a divided island.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.0 -
Doesn't look like they'll bother tabling MV3. Will just get on with the indicative votes and see what those yield?0
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You've never watched Casablanca? Shameful.Charles said:
It was a defined term by May
I don’t think I’d ever heard it used before she did0 -
Genuine question: which bit?Peter_the_Punter said:
First time I've ever seen the full text. It's obscene.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I believe I am a citizen of the world. So yes.Philip_Thompson said:
But we also value something else: the spirit of citizenship.OnlyLivingBoy said:
That's bollocks. I watched the speech live in its entirety. I have never dodged a penny in tax. I heard the speech as a petty-minded attack on people who are open to the world, and I can tell you that work colleagues and friends heard it in exactly those terms too. People from abroad who have made their home here and pay their taxes told me they never imagined they'd hear a British PM say something like that. It was a watershed moment for many (not me, I've had May's number for years).Charles said:
Bollocks
Malign individuals deliberately misrepresented what she meant by “citizens of nowhere” - it was tax-dodging individuals and companies not ordinary Remain voters. Sadly people like you fell for it.
That spirit that means you respect the bonds and obligations that make our society work. That means a commitment to the men and women who live around you, who work for you, who buy the goods and services you sell.
That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says you train up local young people before you take on cheap labour from overseas.
That spirit that means you do as others do, and pay your fair share of tax.
But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.
But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.
So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff…
An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…
A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…
A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…
I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.
A change has got to come. And this party – the Conservative Party – is going to make that change.
You thought that was aimed at you?
The first 4 paragraphs are, IMV, fairly close to apple pie.
The 4 specific examples seem self-evidently examples of bad behaviour
It’s only paragraphs 5 & 6 that could be remotely controversial0 -
You think the numbers will droop?AlastairMeeks said:
Watch that percentage drop like a stone as a big chunk of the adult male population realises they need to tell the government before they have a hand shandy.HYUFD said:
It is not a porno ban, just an age vericatio requirement to access it e.g. with driving license etc which 70% of the public supportsPulpstar said:A week to go till the Tories insane porno ban isnt it ?
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And they remained mute, pandering to the extremists, just as I explained in the thread header. The self-defining Leave moderates are a central part of the problem.Nemtynakht said:
Some leavers - others thought they were doing their jobsAlastairMeeks said:
I don’t notice that either. In the last two years Leavers have labelled judges enemies of the people and sought to abolish the House of Lords when they acted in a manner Leavers didn’t like.Luckyguy1983 said:
I don't want to rehearse the arguments, but I don't know any leaver who thinks we will be poorer in the long term. We just have very different views on the optimal circumstances for wealth creation. At any rate, we must concede that we can potentially prosper inside or outside, it would be silly to argue otherwise.AlastairMeeks said:
There is plenty of evidence that a lot of Leavers want the country to be inward looking and are willing to sacrifice wealth for leaving the EU. So even your bland examples fall down.Luckyguy1983 said:It would be nice, as a thought exercise, to see if there's really any common ground between hardcore remainers and leavers on PB, on even the blandest and most inoffensive aspirations. For example, we appear to both want the country to be wealthy. We appear to both want the country to be outward looking. Perhaps there are more examples of common ground.
Perhaps leavers do want us to be more inward looking as a trend than outward looking.
Perhaps there is more common ground in that both groups are in favour of rigorously upholding the law.0 -
Walking into an empty Cabinet meeting might give her a subtle hint, but would she take the hint?Philip_Thompson said:
Would be interesting if 51% of MPs signed an open letter calling for her to go.AndyJS said:
He can receive letters but they can't be officially tallied until 12 months after the previous vote of confidence.Pulpstar said:Can Graham Brady receive letters again yet ?
Though I imagine to get to 51% might take some payroll vote MPs so that probably can't happen.0 -
Yes of course.MarqueeMark said:
Can the 1922 Committee be lobbied to change the rules?Pulpstar said:Can Graham Brady receive letters again yet ?
The thing about Theresa being "safe" for a year is a red-herring. If the Cabinet and PCP decided they wanted her out a way would be found...0 -
You wot?matt said:
People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
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ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.
But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.
Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/11091720311977246770 -
And now, to football.0
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That’s changing your original statement.AlastairMeeks said:
I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.AlastairMeeks said:
But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.Charles said:
Optimise the outcome *for the country* within the constraints set. Not the same.AlastairMeeks said:
To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.Charles said:
There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.AlastairMeeks said:
If you don't think it's workable as secured there is no moral requirement to engage in a fools' errand, especially one won in such a malign fashion. If those who won the referendum have no interest in your perspective, there is no moral requirement to offer it when it is unwanted.
You can't force people who think that the chosen course of action is malign and idiotic to assist you. You especially can't force them if you're calling them quislings and doubting their patriotism.
For example I believe it was a tragedy that Ireland was ever divided. But now it has been, so long as NI wants to remain part of the U.K. it should be able to.
And I will work to optimise the outcome for the U.K. within the constraint of a divided island.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.0 -
Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.Casino_Royale said:
You wot?matt said:
People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
To clarify, I don’t understand why people would pay for specific songs/albums to be permanently available when one can have a library at all times.0 -
Cleese. Milligan. Everett.matt said:
Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.Casino_Royale said:
You wot?matt said:
People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
Sessions.0 -
I still don’t understand your xeno argument. You voted remain. If some leading remainer had started being xenophobic saying Europe was superior to Africa would you have voted for Leave? It just doesn’t make sense. Unless you are saying all 17.4m leave voters contributed to it or distributed or were somehow involved.AlastairMeeks said:
I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.AlastairMeeks said:
But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.Charles said:
.AlastairMeeks said:
To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.Charles said:
There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.AlastairMeeks said:
If you don't think it's workable as secured there is no moral requirement to engage in a fools' errand, especially one won in such a malign fashion. If those who won the referendum have no interest in your perspective, there is no moral requirement to offer it when it is unwanted.
You can't force people who think that the chosen course of action is malign and idiotic to assist you. You especially can't force them if you're calling them quislings and doubting their patriotism.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil0 -
He’s wriggling and pretending he said something different to his actual statement because I called him out on it.Peter_the_Punter said:
Thank you for your assistance Charles but I've always found Alastair articulates his own views perfectly well.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.AlastairMeeks said:
But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.Charles said:
Optimise the outcome *for the country* within the constraints set. Not the same.AlastairMeeks said:
To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.Charles said:
There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.AlastairMeeks said:
If you don't think it's workable as secured there is no moral requirement to engage in a fools' errand, especially one won in such a malign fashion. If those who won the referendum have no interest in your perspective, there is no moral requirement to offer it when it is unwanted.Charles said:
Your arrogance is distasteful, sirAlastairMeeks said:
I'm arguing neither of those things. When Leavers are still painting themselves in woad and labelling anyone
You can't force people who think that the chosen course of action is malign and idiotic to assist you. You especially can't force them if you're calling them quislings and doubting their patriotism.
For example I believe it was a tragedy that Ireland was ever divided. But now it has been, so long as NI wants to remain part of the U.K. it should be able to.
And I will work to optimise the outcome for the U.K. within the constraint of a divided island.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
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One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.HYUFD said:As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all
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Agree entirely with this assessment.rottenborough said:ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.
But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.
Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/11091720311977246770 -
Nonsense. 2+2 is unambiguous irrespective of the number of people who "take the message" 3 or 5 from it. The speech was misinterpreted by those who wanted to misinterpret it and/or had had its contents selectively misreported to them.OnlyLivingBoy said:
If you want to tell yourself that and ignore the fact that the comment alienated many people, including some who until recently were natural Conservative supporters, be my guest. The speech has a clear xenophobic subtext. It suggests that foreigners can only exist as either a sinister elite or as a threatening mass of cheap labour. Never as co-workers, friends, or members of your family. Stick to your own kind. It was classic dog-whistle politics. Classic May.Richard_Nabavi said:
Of course it's unambiguous. She helpfully gives a bunch of examples of what she means,and she explains exactly what the context is.OnlyLivingBoy said:
You can hardly call it unambiguous if different people watched the same speech and took entirely different messages from it. It's all part and parcel of May's repulsive provincial Little Englander mindset. It is also of course the most breathtaking hypocrisy as the Tory party exists to enable the kind of people May was referring to, or "our donors" as she calls them behind closed doors.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, it was a silly speech. That's no reason to take one phrase out of context and try to pretend it referred to people that it quite unambiguously didn't refer to.Stereotomy said:"Patriots should stop hating people from other countries."
See a problem with that statement? I said "patriots", but I meant "xenophobes". I bet that people who self-identify as patriots but dislike xenophobia would be pretty unhappy about hearing that, right? So how do you think somebody who self-identifies as "citizen of the world" but doesn't like tax-dodging would feel about what May said?
Sure, people who dislike her or dislike the Tories or hate Brexit decided to take offence by deliberately misunderstanding or (more likely) not even bothering to find out what she actually said. And it's true that a smarter politician would have been careful to give them less scope for such misrepresentation. But it's still misrepresentation.
And by the way you absolutely cannot admit to regarding yourself as a citizen of the world without sounding like a deranged Austin Powers.
But I agree that May is an absolutely dreadful woman.0 -
Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).SandyRentool said:
One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.HYUFD said:As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all
0 -
YouGov finds a close connection between US Republican voters and UK Leave voters on the issue of trade negotiations.
US Republicans by 44% to 42% and UK Leave voters by 48% to 36% say the most important thing in trade deals is to get a good deal for their country even if the other side feels they have not got a good deal.
By contrast UK Remainers by 57% to 26%, UK Labour voters by 50% to 31%, US Democrats by 68% to 14% and US Independents by 51% to 30% say the most important thing in trade talks is to get the most mutually beneficial deal for both sides.
UK Tory voters are split 43% to 43%
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/03/22/leave-voters-would-risk-alienating-allies-best-tra0 -
Oxfam - CDs and vinylmatt said:
Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.Casino_Royale said:
You wot?matt said:
People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
To clarify, I don’t understand why people would pay for specific songs/albums to be permanently available when one can have a library at all times.0 -
you get madder by the dayAlastairMeeks said:
And they remained mute, pandering to the extremists, just as I explained in the thread header. The self-defining Leave moderates are a central part of the problem.Nemtynakht said:
Some leavers - others thought they were doing their jobsAlastairMeeks said:
I don’t notice that either. In the last two years Leavers have labelled judges enemies of the people and sought to abolish the House of Lords when they acted in a manner Leavers didn’t like.Luckyguy1983 said:
I don't want to rehearse the arguments, but I don't know any leaver who thinks we will be poorer in the long term. We just have very different views on the optimal circumstances for wealth creation. At any rate, we must concede that we can potentially prosper inside or outside, it would be silly to argue otherwise.AlastairMeeks said:
There is plenty of evidence that a lot of Leavers want the country to be inward looking and are willing to sacrifice wealth for leaving the EU. So even your bland examples fall down.Luckyguy1983 said:It would be nice, as a thought exercise, to see if there's really any common ground between hardcore remainers and leavers on PB, on even the blandest and most inoffensive aspirations. For example, we appear to both want the country to be wealthy. We appear to both want the country to be outward looking. Perhaps there are more examples of common ground.
Perhaps leavers do want us to be more inward looking as a trend than outward looking.
Perhaps there is more common ground in that both groups are in favour of rigorously upholding the law.0 -
The referendum was won by frightening people with a lie that millions of Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That incidentally dictated the parameters of the Brexit settlement to follow, which is a separate disaster. It wasn’t a regrettable intrusion into the debate. It was the basis of the whole campaign.Nemtynakht said:
I still don’t understand your xeno argument. You voted remain. If some leading remainer had started being xenophobic saying Europe was superior to Africa would you have voted for Leave? It just doesn’t make sense. Unless you are saying all 17.4m leave voters contributed to it or distributed or were somehow involved.AlastairMeeks said:
I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.AlastairMeeks said:
But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.Charles said:
.AlastairMeeks said:
To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.Charles said:
There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
And almost without exception Leaver advocates saw this as an acceptable price to pay to secure the victory.0 -
Well then we would have known that 3 months ago and would have had time to try something else.TudorRose said:
Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).SandyRentool said:
One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.HYUFD said:As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all
0 -
Unsarcastically and entirely seriously, we don't share the same definition of "the country" @Charles (and several others) define it as an identity, others have dual passports or non-British passports and can only be described as "patriot-fluid", whereas I define it as a responsibility: it provided me with certain things and on return I am obliged to do certain things for it, which I do. This means I have more in common with say, @Casino_Royale and @Big_G_NorthWales than with say @Roger despite my Remainerdom. That fault line prevents us from forming a coherent demos.Luckyguy1983 said:It would be nice, as a thought exercise, to see if there's really any common ground between hardcore remainers and leavers on PB, on even the blandest and most inoffensive aspirations. For example, we appear to both want the country to be wealthy. We appear to both want the country to be outward looking. Perhaps there are more examples of common ground.
Incidentally this is why I don't think Matthew Goodwin's idea of a National Conservative gap will bear fruit: his three tribes (the poor, the retired, wealthy social conservatives) have incompatible aims.
One piece of irony I do like, tho. It appears that Brexit is eating up so much headspace in government time that the Culture War that nonBritish funded sites such as ReasonUK and TurningPointUK are trying to roll out across the UK appears to be gaming little purchase. It's too early to tell and a tsunami of nutter cash may yet win, but I live in hope.0 -
the bus, the russians, the turksAlastairMeeks said:
The referendum was won by frightening people with a lie that millions of Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That incidentally dictated the parameters of the Brexit settlement to follow, which is a separate disaster. It wasn’t a regrettable intrusion into the debate. It was the basis of the whole campaign.Nemtynakht said:
I still don’t understand your xeno argument. You voted remain. If some leading remainer had started being xenophobic saying Europe was superior to Africa would you have voted for Leave? It just doesn’t make sense. Unless you are saying all 17.4m leave voters contributed to it or distributed or were somehow involved.AlastairMeeks said:
I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.AlastairMeeks said:
But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.Charles said:
.AlastairMeeks said:
To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.Charles said:
There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
And almost without exception Leaver advocates saw this as an acceptable price to pay to secure the victory.
anything but the cebtral fact Remain ran a shit campaign selling an unpopular product to an electorate they did not understand
and still dont0 -
Oxfam know what they have got. Most other charity shops don't.....SandyRentool said:
Oxfam - CDs and vinylmatt said:
Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.Casino_Royale said:
You wot?matt said:
People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
To clarify, I don’t understand why people would pay for specific songs/albums to be permanently available when one can have a library at all times.0 -
The ERG are no more representative of the average Leaver — just look at JRM! — than Momentum are representative of the average Labour voter.rottenborough said:ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.
But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.
Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.
This is a problem with political parties losing wider public support and becoming the play things of political fundamentalists. I am sure that there is a lesson to be learnt here, but I'm not entirely sure what it is, and I have no faith that it will be discovered and acted upon.0 -
Fair point; although it does beg the question 'what else'?SandyRentool said:
Well then we would have known that 3 months ago and would have had time to try something else.TudorRose said:
Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).SandyRentool said:
One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.HYUFD said:As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all
0 -
Well hmv has only just gone bust with a business model whereby people physically travel through actual meatspace to buy content on physical media. How did that work?matt said:
Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.Casino_Royale said:
You wot?matt said:
People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
To clarify, I don’t understand why people would pay for specific songs/albums to be permanently available when one can have a library at all times.0 -
Even if May's vote "wins", lots of people will still find a good reason not to support it.....TudorRose said:
Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).SandyRentool said:
One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.HYUFD said:As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all
0 -
At some point you’re going to have to start wondering why your complacent assumption that it would all settle down with little fuss was so utterly wrong. In the meantime, carry on with the displacement activity.Alanbrooke said:
the bus, the russians, the turksAlastairMeeks said:
The referendum was won by frightening people with a lie that millions of Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That incidentally dictated the parameters of the Brexit settlement to follow, which is a separate disaster. It wasn’t a regrettable intrusion into the debate. It was the basis of the whole campaign.Nemtynakht said:
I still don’t understand your xeno argument. You voted remain. If some leading remainer had started being xenophobic saying Europe was superior to Africa would you have voted for Leave? It just doesn’t make sense. Unless you are saying all 17.4m leave voters contributed to it or distributed or were somehow involved.AlastairMeeks said:
I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.AlastairMeeks said:
But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.Charles said:
.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
And almost without exception Leaver advocates saw this as an acceptable price to pay to secure the victory.
anything but the cebtral fact Remain ran a shit campaign selling an unpopular product to an electorate they did not understand
and still dont0 -
ERG Holdouts are barely 5% of MPs.glw said:
The ERG are no more representative of the average Leaver — just look at JRM! — than Momentum are representative of the average Labour voter.rottenborough said:ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.
But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.
Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.
This is a problem with political parties losing wider public support and becoming the play things of political fundamentalists. I am sure that there is a lesson to be learnt here, but I'm not entirely sure what it is, and I have no faith that it will be discovered and acted upon.
If we crash out with No Deal, the 95% will need to look at their consciences.0 -
That would be hilarious, hopefully at that point after elmininating all other options Parliament will actually back the damn thing, so tha we can move on to arguing about the free trade deal.TudorRose said:Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).
0 -
Mr Rentool,
"Well then we would have known that 3 months ago."
I think you pinpoint the problem here. You concentrate on what the MPs want. They want to remain, despite them saying otherwise. If the Scots were to vote for independence, they need to remember they can leave only if the MPs approve.
0 -
Absolutely spot on. Both campaigns were rubbish. Generalising about voters is pretty futile, but we do know that most voters are moderates.Nemtynakht said:
I still don’t understand your xeno argument. You voted remain. If some leading remainer had started being xenophobic saying Europe was superior to Africa would you have voted for Leave? It just doesn’t make sense. Unless you are saying all 17.4m leave voters contributed to it or distributed or were somehow involved.AlastairMeeks said:
I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.AlastairMeeks said:
But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.Charles said:
.AlastairMeeks said:
To accept it? Yes. To work to optimise something you consider misconceived and malign? No.Charles said:
There is a moral requirement to accept the democratic result of a referendum and to seek to optimise the outcome within the framework voted for.AlastairMeeks said:
If you don't think it's workable as secured there is no moral requirement to engage in a fools' errand, especially one won in such a malign fashion. If those who won the referendum have no interest in your perspective, there is no moral requirement to offer it when it is unwanted.
You can't force people who think that the chosen course of action is malign and idiotic to assist you. You especially can't force them if you're calling them quislings and doubting their patriotism.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
0 -
If Government whips on all options you could be right. Party before Country is in Tin Ears DNATudorRose said:
Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).SandyRentool said:
One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.HYUFD said:As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all
0 -
One day, when I am able to look back on this with the pleasure of distance, Uri Geller's intervention may be a personal highlight:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2097200947043549&id=5167629784206950 -
Oh dearAndyJS said:
I've got it on CD somewhere. Haven't played it since 1998 or thereabouts.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
0 -
You wishCD13 said:Mr Rentool,
"Well then we would have known that 3 months ago."
I think you pinpoint the problem here. You concentrate on what the MPs want. They want to remain, despite them saying otherwise. If the Scots were to vote for independence, they need to remember they can leave only if the MPs approve.0 -
What else? A general election in February - winner takes all in the Brexit stakes.TudorRose said:
Fair point; although it does beg the question 'what else'?SandyRentool said:
Well then we would have known that 3 months ago and would have had time to try something else.TudorRose said:
Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).SandyRentool said:
One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.HYUFD said:As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all
Too late now of course.0 -
Until this evening I had never really understood what she meant by 'citizens of the world' but never really thought about it much. Seemed to me it could be taken one of two ways and I didn't know which but wasn't very interested. Now I see it in context it reads as an insult. How dare she imply I don't know the meaning of citizenship! I value it highly, and wish we emphasised it more in our culture in much the way I know Americans and Canadians do. This does not however prevent me from embracing other cultures, and being inclusive and international in my outlook. On the contrary, my grounding in British culture makes it easier for me to engage positively with others beyond this country. In that respect I regard myself as both a citizen of the world as well as of the UK. Far from it being an insult, I would regard it as a compliment.Charles said:
Genuine question: which bit?Peter_the_Punter said:
First time I've ever seen the full text. It's obscene.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I believe I am a citizen of the world. So yes.Philip_Thompson said:
But we also value something else: the spirit of citizenship.OnlyLivingBoy said:
That's bollocks. I watched the speech live in its entirety. I have never dodged a penny in tax. I heame they never imagined they'd hear a British PM say something like that. It was a watershed moment for many (not me, I've had May's number for years).Charles said:
Bollocks
Malign individuals deliberately misrepresented what she meant by “citizens of nowhere” - it was tax-dodging individuals and companies not ordinary Remain voters. Sadly people like you fell for it.
T
An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…
A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…
A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…
I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.
A change has got to come. And this party – the Conservative Party – is going to make that change.
You thought that was aimed at you?
The first 4 paragraphs are, IMV, fairly close to apple pie.
The 4 specific examples seem self-evidently examples of bad behaviour
It’s only paragraphs 5 & 6 that could be remotely controversial
This is clearly not what she had in mind , however, and the distance between us could not be greater. Now that I have seen the context, I find her use of the phrase squalid, insular, petty, narrow-minded - in short, obscene. But chacun a son gout, Charles.
Bonsoir.0 -
Im still fairly relaxed about the whole thing as are most of the population, most of the moaning is now plain frustration from an electorate fed up our politicians cant manage to agree a fairly straightforward treatyAlastairMeeks said:
At some point you’re going to have to start wondering why your complacent assumption that it would all settle down with little fuss was so utterly wrong. In the meantime, carry on with the displacement activity.Alanbrooke said:
the bus, the russians, the turksAlastairMeeks said:
The referendum was won by fn.Nemtynakht said:
I still don’t understand your xeno ar involved.AlastairMeeks said:
I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.AlastairMeeks said:
But I think the optimal outcome for Britain, given the referendum campaign fought, is for it to fail under its own contradictions. This judgement has been reinforced by the way in which those who gleefully pandered to xenophobia have conducted themselves since. So I will watch and wait for that.Charles said:
.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
And almost without exception Leaver advocates saw this as an acceptable price to pay to secure the victory.
anything but the cebtral fact Remain ran a shit campaign selling an unpopular product to an electorate they did not understand
and still dont
asfor displacement. maybe you should give it a try, youve been trolling the same old arguments for 2 years and still cant make them stick. Einstein etc0 -
Others were always resistant, but the ERG have ensured that resistance will succeed. I hope they are happy.rottenborough said:ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.
But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.
Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/11091720311977246770 -
Mr g,
"You wish."
In fact, I don't. What makes you think Scots are immune to the same forces that obstructed Leave. I wish you well, but unless the MPs are on your side (remember they will lie through their teeth), you'll never see the finishing line.0 -
I agree but they will have no option, you cannot hold people prisoners in a dictatorship. International law says a country has the right to self determination , it is a union of equals, they can try but all they will do is ensure it happens.CD13 said:Mr g,
"You wish."
In fact, I don't. What makes you think Scots are immune to the same forces that obstructed Leave. I wish you well, but unless the MPs are on your side (remember they will lie through their teeth), you'll never see the finishing line.0 -
Evening Malc!malcolmg said:
Oh dearAndyJS said:
I've got it on CD somewhere. Haven't played it since 1998 or thereabouts.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
I've decided that whatever those headless chickens in Westminster say I'm still leaving the EU one week tonight at 11pm.
0 -
Because they are all going to be rejected by a majority of MPs.SandyRentool said:
One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.HYUFD said:As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all
0 -
Brooke-Taylor. Garden. Oddie.Casino_Royale said:
Cleese. Milligan. Everett.matt said:
Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.Casino_Royale said:
You wot?matt said:
People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
Sessions.
Cricklewood.0 -
-
You think 3.5 million people signing a petition at light speed are relaxed? Or the 90% who see this as a national humiliation? Curious.Alanbrooke said:
Im still fairly relaxed about the whole thing as are most of the population, most of the moaning is now plain frustration from an electorate fed up our politicians cant manage to agree a fairly straightforward treatyAlastairMeeks said:
At some point you’re going to have to start wondering why your complacent assumption that it would all settle down with little fuss was so utterly wrong. In the meantime, carry on with the displacement activity.Alanbrooke said:
the bus, the russians, the turksAlastairMeeks said:
The referendum was won by fn.Nemtynakht said:
I still don’t understand your xeno ar involved.AlastairMeeks said:
I have no obligation to help Brexit prosper. I don’t.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
I would argue that you had a much clearer obligation not to fall in behind xenophobic lies in the referendum campaign. But Leavers en masse decided that was ok in the circumstances.
It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
And almost without exception Leaver advocates saw this as an acceptable price to pay to secure the victory.
anything but the cebtral fact Remain ran a shit campaign selling an unpopular product to an electorate they did not understand
and still dont
asfor displacement. maybe you should give it a try, youve been trolling the same old arguments for 2 years and still cant make them stick. Einstein etc
As Brexit falls apart, the arguments I put that were once incendiary are now accepted by others as commonplace. One day you’ll have an explanation about what’s going wrong. I’ll wait.0 -
Could be the last throw of the dice for the WA. Doesn't deal with DUP problem though.
https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/11091801762593177610 -
Jesus. Mary. Joseph.viewcode said:
Brooke-Taylor. Garden. Oddie.Casino_Royale said:
Cleese. Milligan. Everett.matt said:
Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.Casino_Royale said:
You wot?matt said:
People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
Sessions.
Cricklewood.
Bethlehem.0 -
Even that won't be enough without the DUP - And they're saying:Norm said:Could be the last throw of the dice for the WA. Doesn't deal with DUP problem though.
https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1109180176259317761
NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! 0 -
Evening GIN, I am looking forward to rejoiningGIN1138 said:
Evening Malc!malcolmg said:
Oh dearAndyJS said:
I've got it on CD somewhere. Haven't played it since 1998 or thereabouts.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
I've decided that whatever those headless chickens in Westminster say I'm still leaving the EU one week tonight at 11pm.0 -
At the moment the likeliest thing to pass is May's Deal plus permanent Customs Union (as Labour MPs from Leave seats would be more likely to vote for that than Norway Plus which requires free movement) and which May is said to be ready to propose as one of the proposals for the indicative votes. So all the ERG will have achieved by refusing to vote for May's Deal with a temporary Customs Union backstop is to see the passage of May's Deal with a permanent Customs Union for the whole UKedmundintokyo said:
Very hard to imagine parliament voting for any actual version of BINO. I mean, they may vote to do BINO, but once you negotiate an actual thing you still have to pass it, and any gain you make on the left you'll lose on the right.HYUFD said:
May is irrelevant and given last December's vote cannot be challenged until the Brexit process is over, Parliament is about to take control and move towards BINO as Kwarteng made clear todayPhilip_Thompson said:
Would be interesting if 51% of MPs signed an open letter calling for her to go.AndyJS said:
He can receive letters but they can't be officially tallied until 12 months after the previous vote of confidence.Pulpstar said:Can Graham Brady receive letters again yet ?
Though I imagine to get to 51% might take some payroll vote MPs so that probably can't happen.0 -
A General Election might not be the worst idea. EU can do what they like in the interim. They have to recognise that big wheels beyond their imagination are turning.. (it's our story and we should stick with it)SandyRentool said:
What else? A general election in February - winner takes all in the Brexit stakes.TudorRose said:
Fair point; although it does beg the question 'what else'?SandyRentool said:
Well then we would have known that 3 months ago and would have had time to try something else.TudorRose said:
Because it won't work. I don't think there is a majority for any of those things. It might turn out that the highest vote 'for' something is actually the deal (despite TMay's best endeavours to trash it).SandyRentool said:
One has to wonder why the feck they didn't do this back in December when it was already crystal clear that May's deal was dead.HYUFD said:As Kwasi Kwarteng made clear today if the Deal is rejected again the Government will allow free votes on all alternative options from revoke, EUref2, single market and/or Customs Union or No Deal and Parliament will decide whether Brexit goes ahead if at all
Too late now of course.
Revoking is the worst of all worlds. A Second referendum a close second. But just because there are horrors abroad doesn't mean there's any mandate at all to embrace the slithy tove, Corbyn, and certainly no mandate for him to decide.
Mostly I hope MPs hold their noses and vote for May's deal. I promise I'll look away and never recall how you voted if you vote yes collectively.
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Neil. Rik. Vyvyan.SandyRentool said:
Jesus. Mary. Joseph.viewcode said:
Brooke-Taylor. Garden. Oddie.Casino_Royale said:
Cleese. Milligan. Everett.matt said:
Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.Casino_Royale said:
You wot?matt said:
People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
Sessions.
Cricklewood.
Bethlehem.
Scumbag College.0 -
Honest question. Given the law of the land is the UK leaves the EU on 29 March, what legislation is required for May to extended Article 50? Can she just do it, or does she need the House to pass something?0
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AlastairMeeks said:Alanbrooke said:
You think 3.5 million people signing a petition at light speed are relaxed? Or the 90% who see this as a national humiliation? Curious.AlastairMeeks said:
Im still fairly relaxed about the whole thing as are most of the population, most of the moaning is now plain frustration from an electorate fed up our politicians cant manage to agree a fairly straightforward treatyAlanbrooke said:
At some point you’re going to have to start wondering why your complacent assumption that it would all settle down with little fuss was so utterly wrong. In the meantime, carry on with the displacement activity.AlastairMeeks said:
The referendum was won by fn.Nemtynakht said:
I still don’t understand your xeno ar involved.AlastairMeeks said:
I have no obligation to help Brexit prospt was ok in the circumstances.Charles said:
His original argument was that because he disagreed with the decision to leave he had no obligation to help the country prosperPeter_the_Punter said:
That's a misreading, I think, Lucky. He means for Brexit to fail.Luckyguy1983 said:
To desire the country to fail, because it is leaving a set of treaties is, to put it kindly, a niche view. Many Americans are big fans of NAFTA I am sure, but wouldn't desire America to fail if it left.
It's a view I have some sympathy with and why I have become calmer recently about the prospect of No Deal. Sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way.
It the old Hitler was a vegetarian argument. It doesn’t make Linda McCartney sausages evil
And almost without extand
and still dont
asfor displacement. maybe you should give it a try, youve been trolling the same old arguments for 2 years and still cant make them stick. Einstein etc
As Brexit falls apart, the arguments I put that were once incendiary are now accepted by others as commonplace. One day you’ll have an explanation about what’s going wrong. I’ll wait.
I think 3.5 million people is just noise, Paliament has already shown its willingness to ignore the outside world and prioritise itself. As for brexit it is simply an event, for most people it is not the most impoirtant event in their lives family, friends fun will always be more important.
Only saddos banging on endlessly about Europe continue to make it the most important thing in their agenda which in itself tells you all you need to know about empty lives.0 -
Good goal for England there....0
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As I suggested first thing this morning. May needs at least to pretend she is in control of events.HYUFD said:0 -
Dear Theresa,rottenborough said:
To save time for both of us, why not just send your script over and I'll imagine you reciting it at me.0 -
But could they cope with kazakhstanFrancisUrquhart said:Good goal for England there....
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That is not the law of the land any more. The changes are already doneMTimT said:Honest question. Given the law of the land is the UK leaves the EU on 29 March, what legislation is required for May to extended Article 50? Can she just do it, or does she need the House to pass something?
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Without a vote in parliament?Scott_P said:
That is not the law of the land any more. The changes are already doneMTimT said:Honest question. Given the law of the land is the UK leaves the EU on 29 March, what legislation is required for May to extended Article 50? Can she just do it, or does she need the House to pass something?
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Agreed. Our Buggin's turn electoral system makes it very difficult for anything outside the big 2 to gain any political traction. It therefore becomes far easier and more fruitful for the political extremes to take over one of the main 2.glw said:
The ERG are no more representative of the average Leaver — just look at JRM! — than Momentum are representative of the average Labour voter.rottenborough said:ERG gambling on No Deal. They may be right, who knows.
But, if we get soft Brexit or no Brexit, I don't want to hear any crap from Leavers about how it was stolen from them by remainer elite.
Your side - your most passionate side - did this. They threw it away.
This is a problem with political parties losing wider public support and becoming the play things of political fundamentalists. I am sure that there is a lesson to be learnt here, but I'm not entirely sure what it is, and I have no faith that it will be discovered and acted upon.
That is exactly what has happened to both parties and once in control they need do no more than sit back and wait for their turn to come. Still as in many things the majority seem to think our system is right and all the other 27 PR systems in the EU are wrong. Sigh0 -
no they aren't!!!! A Statutory Instrument is required on the UK side - it will happen and the HoC will approve it but it isn't done yet.Scott_P said:
That is not the law of the land any more. The changes are already doneMTimT said:Honest question. Given the law of the land is the UK leaves the EU on 29 March, what legislation is required for May to extended Article 50? Can she just do it, or does she need the House to pass something?
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I've spend the day wondering how stupid an MP must be to fake invoices.
Then I go on PB and see someone claiming that twatter gives a better reflection of public opinion than scientific opinion polls.0 -
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The EUWA says a minister can change Exit Day ‘by regulation’, which others on here think requires a simple vote of both Houses (and it was touted for Monday last time I saw). I’d expect only the hardline antis to vote against, no?MTimT said:Honest question. Given the law of the land is the UK leaves the EU on 29 March, what legislation is required for May to extended Article 50? Can she just do it, or does she need the House to pass something?
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As a relative of mine likes to say the average is very low.....another_richard said:I've spend the day wondering how stupid an MP must be to fake invoices.
Then I go on PB and see someone claiming that twatter gives a better reflection of public opinion than scientific opinion polls.0 -
That’s EU law, not UKScott_P said:0 -
Truth or Dare.viewcode said:
Brooke-Taylor. Garden. Oddie.Casino_Royale said:
Cleese. Milligan. Everett.matt said:
Spotify. Apple Music. Tidal.Casino_Royale said:
You wot?matt said:
People buy music on iTunes? How quaint.Casino_Royale said:I just bought Spice by the Spice Girls on iTunes.
Sessions.
Cricklewood.
My Turn.
I own a Goodies album and 2 Goodies singles.
Who is next?0 -
Still a bit of free money at 1.04 available on BFE for no 29/3 no deal exit.Scott_P said:0
This discussion has been closed.