politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Raab’s resignation sparks off huge movements on the TMay exit,
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I suspect many people know who Mcvey is and her connection with UC was. Politics has become a spectator sport,.Nigelb said:
Apologies - I made the mistake of assuming they knew who she was.brendan16 said:
It was - they were clapping McVey's decision to resign and saying well done. But then you would have actually had to watch the debate.Nigelb said:
Somehow, I don't think that was a message of support for her...CarlottaVance said:0 -
The germans will take the approach that if the brits cant sign, then assume its no deal and all the time you have left is spent preparing for what that means.rpjs said:
The EU have made it clear. This is the deal. It's this, crash and burn or (maybe) remain.RobinWiggs said:I'm intrigued that so many people claim this deal will not pass Parliament.
This deal in its current form clearly won't pass at a first attempt, and it is clear that the PM thinks she had got as good as she could from the negotiations upto this point.
What we now have given the EU in the past 24 hours is a very clear picture that the deal as constructed is not enough. We've showcased this morning all of the bits that can not be accepted by one group or another. We've allowed the mediaevalists in the DUP to show they are dead set on going down in flames, and we've shown that this could easily cost the PM her job and the alternatives are (mostly) pretty disastrous (JC or an ERGer).
The routes to a GE are almost non-existent. The routes to another referendum are IMHO unlikely, divisive and probably not decisive. That is a bad route and we don't have the time to anyway.
So, as with all complex stalemates in the end-game of negotiations, we now need something to happen to create the required movement. The last 24 hours should be enough to convince the EU we are not bluffing, the deal won't pass and no deal (even if mitigated by mini-deals) really is the unwelcome alternative.
It may be enough to enable Mrs May to go back and screw more out of the EU now, or we may need it to fail at the first attempt.
Time-limiting the backstop with a unilateral exit mechanism and making both ends of the swimming pool more equal in depth, (coupled with more flesh on the future relationship outline) might be enough to turn this deal into something that can pass parliament at the second attempt.
But the past 24 hours may not be enough for Mrs May to get that final movement. It may need a quick change of PM to Mr Raab to go back with this draft and screw the necessary concessions out of the EU team and re-present it to parliament. He is probably the only one who could pick up the mantle quickly with reasonable confidence from both wings of the party, and not entail us going back to square one.
Crash and burn will hurt them too, yes, but clearly either they don't think it'll hurt enough to make them interested in budging or they think that to avoid crash and burn we'll plead to remain.0 -
Labour, the ERG and Tory remainers: The EU are a bunch of liars, who would therefore very easily do a deal with us, which would be completely better in contradictory ways.rpjs said:
The EU have made it clear. This is the deal. It's this, crash and burn or (maybe) remain.RobinWiggs said:I'm intrigued that so many people claim this deal will not pass Parliament.
This deal in its current form clearly won't pass at a first attempt, and it is clear that the PM thinks she had got as good as she could from the negotiations upto this point.
What we now have given the EU in the past 24 hours is a very clear picture that the deal as constructed is not enough. We've showcased this morning all of the bits that can not be accepted by one group or another. We've allowed the mediaevalists in the DUP to show they are dead set on going down in flames, and we've shown that this could easily cost the PM her job and the alternatives are (mostly) pretty disastrous (JC or an ERGer).
The routes to a GE are almost non-existent. The routes to another referendum are IMHO unlikely, divisive and probably not decisive. That is a bad route and we don't have the time to anyway.
So, as with all complex stalemates in the end-game of negotiations, we now need something to happen to create the required movement. The last 24 hours should be enough to convince the EU we are not bluffing, the deal won't pass and no deal (even if mitigated by mini-deals) really is the unwelcome alternative.
It may be enough to enable Mrs May to go back and screw more out of the EU now, or we may need it to fail at the first attempt.
Time-limiting the backstop with a unilateral exit mechanism and making both ends of the swimming pool more equal in depth, (coupled with more flesh on the future relationship outline) might be enough to turn this deal into something that can pass parliament at the second attempt.
But the past 24 hours may not be enough for Mrs May to get that final movement. It may need a quick change of PM to Mr Raab to go back with this draft and screw the necessary concessions out of the EU team and re-present it to parliament. He is probably the only one who could pick up the mantle quickly with reasonable confidence from both wings of the party, and not entail us going back to square one.
Crash and burn will hurt them too, yes, but clearly either they don't think it'll hurt enough to make them interested in budging or they think that to avoid crash and burn we'll plead to remain.
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They could have prevented it - or at least shown willing to try to do so. Instead they went along with the Tory shambles (now a disaster) every step of the way.TheJezziah said:
I believe Labour and Corbyn should be, which is why they can't be held responsible for the current Tory mess. It is not their doing.Nigelb said:
Holding Labour, and Corbyn, responsible for their choices is entirely reasonable. How Tories feel about it is more or less irrelevant.TheJezziah said:
Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
The news cycle and the impact on a future leadership bid are important and complex matters to consider when the national interest (inseparable from their becoming leader in some MPs’ minds) is at stake.kle4 said:
Why are so many people still considering their position? This is not rocket science - either you support the deal, whether or not it would pass the Commons, or you don't. If you don;t you quit if you do you stay and take the consequences when it is voted down.TheScreamingEagles said:
There's not much to think about here when weighing options.0 -
In theory, yes. In practice, shoving through legislation of that order within the space of a week by a divided government that doesn't want a snap election should be thousands to one.Polruan said:
Couldn’t Parliament legislate to reduce the 5 weeks if a crisis demands it?MikeL said:Betfair 2018 GE now 23 on Betfair - not sure why as now legally impossible to have GE before Christmas - as minimum 5 weeks between dissolution and GE - Thur 20 Dec is 5 weeks from today.
Thur 27 Dec still legally possible but surely completely inconceivable.
That said, I don't think that general elections have to be on a Thursday.0 -
Mr. Herdson, that's rather good.0
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A strange spelling... but it has a certain charm.TheScreamingEagles said:
Particle physics gives me a hadron.Jonathan said:Physics gives the biggest bangs.
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You are evading the point - the deal being a mess is not Labour's doing. Voting down that mess is still Labour's own choice however. Maybe it is the right choice, we shall see. The fact of it being a mess may or may not justify that choice. But it will still be their choice and if that choice leads to a terrible no deal outcome that the Tories did a bad job doesn't take away Labour's choice.TheJezziah said:
I believe Labour and Corbyn should be, which is why they can't be held responsible for the current Tory mess. It is not their doing.Nigelb said:
Holding Labour, and Corbyn, responsible for their choices is entirely reasonable. How Tories feel about it is more or less irrelevant.TheJezziah said:
Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
FFS Morris, why can't you quote! Which of DH's posts is 'rather good'?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Herdson, that's rather good.
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LOL. I am not an Islamaphobe. Far from. I stand by my record on here of calling out Islamaphobia and anti-Semitism, and it says nothing positive about you that you descend to that level.TheJezziah said:
I know it can be confusing for Islamophobes such as yourself but Corbyn continuing Ed's policies opposing the occupation of Palestine isn't anti semitism. Embrace the realityJosiasJessop said:
Same can be said for you and Corbyn's anti-Semitism. Embrace the reality.TheJezziah said:
Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.TheScreamingEagles said:
But for the record, Corbyn's doing much more than than you say. And people should stop hiding their anti-Semitism behind anti-Zionism.
I should ask how bonfire night went for you. Did you mix up your Katyusha and sparklers?0 -
Labour's problem is that the voting blend that got behind Corbyn includes a lot of very pro-EU people (mainly young). May has delivered (more or less) the only "soft exit" deal that can exist. The only coherent alternatives are WTO (with possibly a cobbled together set of temporary arrangements) or remain. McDonnell stating that he could get a better deal is ludicrous becuase he also stated that permanent CU and SM membership was his aim which is literally not leaving apart from giving up voting rights.0
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OTOH, the entire commuting population will probably want to hold a street party to celebrate - that is, if they can get home !!TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
OchEye said:
I suspect many people know who Mcvey is and her connection with UC was. Politics has become a spectator sport,.Nigelb said:
Apologies - I made the mistake of assuming they knew who she was.brendan16 said:
It was - they were clapping McVey's decision to resign and saying well done. But then you would have actually had to watch the debate.Nigelb said:
Somehow, I don't think that was a message of support for her...CarlottaVance said:0 -
Were you listening to her answers this morning?HYUFD said:May is moving towards calling a referendum if she cannot get her Deal through, note she included No Brexit at all in future options last night as Remain almost certainly beats No Deal in EUref2 based on polling
She said perhaps some 10 times that she would not be calling a referendum.
Which, following the example of GE2017, means it's nailed on. I salute your perspicacity.0 -
If Parliament blocks a soft brexit (which TM's deal is) then I can't see where we go. A hard brexit has very little MP support and a 2nd ref would be a crazy course of action. Golly.0
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Yes, I wasn’t suggesting that 23 was a good price, but if you get to a general election it’s probably because the government have conceded one (as the only way out of the crisis other than a Referendum) rather than been NCed into it, and then all parties would cooperate to get it done quickly.david_herdson said:
In theory, yes. In practice, shoving through legislation of that order within the space of a week by a divided government that doesn't want a snap election should be thousands to one.Polruan said:
Couldn’t Parliament legislate to reduce the 5 weeks if a crisis demands it?MikeL said:Betfair 2018 GE now 23 on Betfair - not sure why as now legally impossible to have GE before Christmas - as minimum 5 weeks between dissolution and GE - Thur 20 Dec is 5 weeks from today.
Thur 27 Dec still legally possible but surely completely inconceivable.
That said, I don't think that general elections have to be on a Thursday.
About 200-1 would be tempting.0 -
And I was just reflecting on May's appalling luck to lose so many ministers, and not Grayling.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Was ... was that a quark joke? Top drawer.Nigelb said:
A strange spelling... but it has a certain charm.TheScreamingEagles said:
Particle physics gives me a hadron.Jonathan said:Physics gives the biggest bangs.
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Probably one that involves your opposition.williamglenn said:0 -
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
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The only actions left are crazy. Hard Brexit has a lot more support than you might think, because so many MPs are willing to risk it - their actions therefore back it as a possibility no matter how much they cry crocodile tears about it with their words.kinabalu said:If Parliament blocks a soft brexit (which TM's deal is) then I can't see where we go. A hard brexit has very little MP support and a 2nd ref would be a crazy course of action. Golly.
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I think that must be the right thing to do. It's high-risk, for all the reasons we've explored, and highly unsatisfactory on a number of counts, but since there is no chance at all of the EU agreeing a better deal than the PM has managed to achieve, and since leaving without a deal would be absolutely catastrophic, the only possible way out if parliament won't accept the deal is to reverse the People's Vote, and the only possible way of doing that with sufficient democratic cover would be to re-run it. Of course, it would be a 50-50 shot at best, but that's better than a 100% chance of disaster. (And both are worse than a near-100% chance of a decent result, which parliament seem set to reject. Hey-ho)TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Very good! Of course he could just be resigning because he's crap at the job.... Idavid_herdson said:
Wags are commenting that it's typical that Grayling's resignation is running several hours late. Blame is being ascribed to Leavers on the line.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
So it's - literally - leaving.NorthofStoke said:Labour's problem is that the voting blend that got behind Corbyn includes a lot of very pro-EU people (mainly young). May has delivered (more or less) the only "soft exit" deal that can exist. The only coherent alternatives are WTO (with possibly a cobbled together set of temporary arrangements) or remain. McDonnell stating that he could get a better deal is ludicrous becuase he also stated that permanent CU and SM membership was his aim which is literally not leaving apart from giving up voting rights.
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That is exactly what May wanted, she was goading it, she ended up having to use Sadiq Khan as the bogeyman who was trying to stop Brexit.PClipp said:
They could have prevented it - or at least shown willing to try to do so. Instead they went along with the Tory shambles (now a disaster) every step of the way.TheJezziah said:
I believe Labour and Corbyn should be, which is why they can't be held responsible for the current Tory mess. It is not their doing.Nigelb said:
Holding Labour, and Corbyn, responsible for their choices is entirely reasonable. How Tories feel about it is more or less irrelevant.TheJezziah said:
Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.TheScreamingEagles said:
Whether Labour actually wanted Brexit or wanted to stop it the only way to let this play out and stop Brexit would be the current strategy where it has blown up in the Conservatives faces.
If we are talking votes in the house of commons I don't think there are any that could have been won that Labour didn't try to win.
If Brexit was ever to be stopped I believe it had to get to this situation first and Labour opposing Brexit would have been the perfect bogeyman to keep it going longer.0 -
It took him 2 hours, so he certainly hasn't lepton it.Anorak said:
Was ... was that a quark joke? Top drawer.Nigelb said:
A strange spelling... but it has a certain charm.TheScreamingEagles said:
Particle physics gives me a hadron.Jonathan said:Physics gives the biggest bangs.
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has anyone calling for a second referendum any idea what the question might be ?Richard_Nabavi said:
I think that must be the right thing to do. It's high-risk, for all the reasons we've explored, and highly unsatisfactory on a number of counts, but since there is no chance at all of the EU agreeing a better deal than the PM has managed to achieve, and since leaving without a deal would be absolutely catastrophic, the only possible way out is to reverse the People's Vote, and the only possible way of doing that with sufficient democratic cover would be to re-run it. Of course, it would be a 50-50 shot at best, but that's better than a 100% chance of disaster.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
In this case less would be more.Philip_Thompson said:
I think Rees-Mogg would be happy with the EU offering less. He doesn't want more from the EU he wants less and seems perfectly content to get nothing at all from them and leave on a clean Brexit.Alanbrooke said:
Personally if I was the EU Id offer less than before to the UK to stop them messing about.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, exactly right.TOPPING said:The ERG are hugely misplaying it.
Any new leader will presumably rip up the deal and hence they instantly relieve the Labour Party of any dilemma.
The current Lab dilemma is support the deal or not. If they don't they could be accused of acting against the National interest; if they do, well they support the government and that isn't what an Opposition is supposed to do.
The ERG looks like it is about to relieve them of that problem. No Labour MP with a pulse would ever vote for a Party with one of the Brex-o-loons in charge and hence Lab can sit back and blame the extreme wing of the party whereas they will hint, they would reluctantly but dutifully have backed May's deal.
Plus of course any new leader is going to come back with the same deal, and will face the same parliamentary arithmetic.0 -
Indeed just as the UK has been made to make more concessions every time we've made any.Alanbrooke said:
If they make concessions theyll get asked for more. Why would you ?Philip_Thompson said:
If that was the case the way to get it over with would be to make concessions that would be acceptable to Parliament. They've not done that.Alanbrooke said:
Brits have spent too much time thinking they are going back in to the Europe of 2016, Merkel ey al have too many other problems without extending Brexit. They want it over.Anorak said:Of course, expecting anyone new to "fix" the deal is delusional in the extreme.
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1063054601228898310
The only thing which helps May today is it seriosuly reduces the chances of an EU27 member blocking the deal with extra demands of their own. Theyll get leant on.
So what you're suggesting now is they don't simply want it over with. It's May's desire to get something to make this over which has led to us making concessions.0 -
No. Absolutely not.stjohn said:Lammy says May "was handed a sticky wicket".
May decided she wanted to be Prime Minister when Cameron resigned. It might have been an over-inflated "sense of duty" but she took the chance when it was offered without any hesitation. Her conduct during the EU Referendum when she was almost as invisible as Jeremy Corbyn is all the evidence you need she is an opportunist who would have happily remained (as it were) as HS had Cameron stayed on and awaited his retirement before putting herself forward.
My guess is she will have to be dragged away from No.10 by her fingernails and its' interesting she is relying more on the Cabinet Secretary and other senior civil servants to support her and hold the line. She is treating the office of PM just as she did the office of Home Secretary surrounding herself with sycophantically loyal officials and advisers.
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Yes, it was a rather elementary joke to make.Pro_Rata said:
It took him 2 hours, so he certainly hasn't lepton it.Anorak said:
Was ... was that a quark joke? Top drawer.Nigelb said:
A strange spelling... but it has a certain charm.TheScreamingEagles said:
Particle physics gives me a hadron.Jonathan said:Physics gives the biggest bangs.
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The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
I have no sympathy for Grayling in the slightest as he's the Transport Secretary who doored a cyclist and then fled the scene.kle4 said:
Why are so many people still considering their position? This is not rocket science - either you support the deal, whether or not it would pass the Commons, or you don't. If you don;t you quit if you do you stay and take the consequences when it is voted down.TheScreamingEagles said:
There's not much to think about here when weighing options.
However, I do think it could take some time to decide between your personal loyalty to an individual you have supported closely for a long time and your personal judgement on a matter of policy. He must trust May's judgement to a considerable degree, so to find his own judgement in conflict with it must be a wrench.0 -
My point was I wasn't quite so sure about Penny Mordaunt who always sounds like a character out of Harry Potter to me, probably Slytherin.OblitusSumMe said:
Yes, my point was that the Guardian's desire for completeness included them, indeed it includes a Downing Street official who has also resigned, even though politically there is a tendency to overlook them.DavidL said:
Some of these PPS's have real jobs.OblitusSumMe said:
She's not made it onto the Guardian liveblog as resigned, and they have a list with all the PPS resignations.Richard_Nabavi said:Hang on, I'm losing track: Has Penny Mordaunt resigned and been completely forgotten about in the general brouhaha, or is she still in Cabinet?
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I did say (admittedly to someone else) that Labour are responsible for their actions from here. Which they are.kle4 said:
You are evading the point - the deal being a mess is not Labour's doing. Voting down that mess is still Labour's own choice however. Maybe it is the right choice, we shall see. The fact of it being a mess may or may not justify that choice. But it will still be their choice and if that choice leads to a terrible no deal outcome that the Tories did a bad job doesn't take away Labour's choice.TheJezziah said:
I believe Labour and Corbyn should be, which is why they can't be held responsible for the current Tory mess. It is not their doing.Nigelb said:
Holding Labour, and Corbyn, responsible for their choices is entirely reasonable. How Tories feel about it is more or less irrelevant.TheJezziah said:
Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.TheScreamingEagles said:
What I said was the Tories were responsible for the current mess which exists regardless of Labours future voting intentions on the deal. Which they are. So I do agree with you but my specific point was about the current situation.0 -
I get the sense that Brexit not happening on 29/03/19 will now become favourite.
And in turn a referendum and ultimately Remain will in due course become favourite too.
Brexiteers have overplayed their hand.0 -
PM is meeting with Penny Mordaunt now, demanding a suspension of collective responsibility.
May will refuse, which *surely* means Mordaunt has to go.0 -
Labour MPs need to know they are voting between a soft exit and a cliff edge crash. If the majority of Tory MPs vote for the former and they vote for the latter it is clear who will be responsible.NorthofStoke said:Labour's problem is that the voting blend that got behind Corbyn includes a lot of very pro-EU people (mainly young). May has delivered (more or less) the only "soft exit" deal that can exist. The only coherent alternatives are WTO (with possibly a cobbled together set of temporary arrangements) or remain. McDonnell stating that he could get a better deal is ludicrous becuase he also stated that permanent CU and SM membership was his aim which is literally not leaving apart from giving up voting rights.
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Hmmm. Keep on saying it if it makes you feel better, but when Tory MPs are openly slagging off each other and sending open letters of no confidence in the PM to Brady, I think it's fair to say that this is not a Labour thing.Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
You think the Tories will hold together long enough to actually put the deal to a vote?Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
I’m not sure there are many prizes for being able to deliver a bare majority of your party unless you hold 100% of the seats in Parliament. Otherwise it’s just another way of saying the government can’t command the confidence of the house.Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
Why don't you just split as Labour did over defence and Europe and everyone can be happy?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
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Absolutely! The implicit idea that this situation was somehow forced on May is bizarre.stodge said:
No. Absolutely not.stjohn said:Lammy says May "was handed a sticky wicket".
May decided she wanted to be Prime Minister when Cameron resigned. It might have been an over-inflated "sense of duty" but she took the chance when it was offered without any hesitation. Her conduct during the EU Referendum when she was almost as invisible as Jeremy Corbyn is all the evidence you need she is an opportunist who would have happily remained (as it were) as HS had Cameron stayed on and awaited his retirement before putting herself forward.
My guess is she will have to be dragged away from No.10 by her fingernails and its' interesting she is relying more on the Cabinet Secretary and other senior civil servants to support her and hold the line. She is treating the office of PM just as she did the office of Home Secretary surrounding herself with sycophantically loyal officials and advisers.0 -
I think your just consistent in being an angry man, Islamophobes are often angry people.JosiasJessop said:
LOL. I am not an Islamaphobe. Far from. I stand by my record on here of calling out Islamaphobia and anti-Semitism, and it says nothing positive about you that you descend to that level.TheJezziah said:
I know it can be confusing for Islamophobes such as yourself but Corbyn continuing Ed's policies opposing the occupation of Palestine isn't anti semitism. Embrace the realityJosiasJessop said:
Same can be said for you and Corbyn's anti-Semitism. Embrace the reality.TheJezziah said:
Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.TheScreamingEagles said:
But for the record, Corbyn's doing much more than than you say. And people should stop hiding their anti-Semitism behind anti-Zionism.
I should ask how bonfire night went for you. Did you mix up your Katyusha and sparklers?0 -
So was it confirmed at Gove refused to accept the Brexit Secretary job? If so May lost two of them in a day - some going0
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Yes, absolutely, many options have been presented. No one has yet agreed a question though because, officially, neither party backs it.TGOHF said:
has anyone calling for a second referendum any idea what the question might be ?Richard_Nabavi said:
I think that must be the right thing to do. It's high-risk, for all the reasons we've explored, and highly unsatisfactory on a number of counts, but since there is no chance at all of the EU agreeing a better deal than the PM has managed to achieve, and since leaving without a deal would be absolutely catastrophic, the only possible way out is to reverse the People's Vote, and the only possible way of doing that with sufficient democratic cover would be to re-run it. Of course, it would be a 50-50 shot at best, but that's better than a 100% chance of disaster.TheScreamingEagles said:
I do think that will change. Even as (in fact because of how) pathetically riven as they are the Tories will not want to concede a GE as the price (I don't see how they avoid one in 2019 at some point though) for a referendum, and a referendum is Labour's backup option if there is no GE, so I would think there is a chance they will agree for a no deal, deal, remain referendum, with Labour backing remain and Tories arguing every which way. I know Labour have leave votes, but their membership and MPs know what they want to do here. Maybe it would be on a free campaign and vote, in which case most Labour people will campaign for remain.0 -
I think a split is a real possibility.stodge said:
Why don't you just split as Labour did over defence and Europe and everyone can be happy?TheScreamingEagles said:
Someone has described today as 'The last days of Caligula without the orgies and shagging'0 -
A minority of the Conservative parliamentary party is being irresponsible. The entirety of the Labour parliamentary party is.Jonathan said:
Hmmm. Keep on saying it if it makes you feel better, but when Tory MPs are openly slagging off each other and sending open letters of no confidence in the PM to Brady, I think it's fair to say that this is not a Labour thing.Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
If he refused to accept it she never lost him in the position.RochdalePioneers said:So was it confirmed at Gove refused to accept the Brexit Secretary job? If so May lost two of them in a day - some going
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All of them, obviously.Benpointer said:
FFS Morris, why can't you quote! Which of DH's posts is 'rather good'?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Herdson, that's rather good.
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Whatever, the Tories will carry the can for the outcome of this whole charade, which they own from start to finish.kle4 said:
You are evading the point - the deal being a mess is not Labour's doing. Voting down that mess is still Labour's own choice however. Maybe it is the right choice, we shall see. The fact of it being a mess may or may not justify that choice. But it will still be their choice and if that choice leads to a terrible no deal outcome that the Tories did a bad job doesn't take away Labour's choice.TheJezziah said:
I believe Labour and Corbyn should be, which is why they can't be held responsible for the current Tory mess. It is not their doing.Nigelb said:
Holding Labour, and Corbyn, responsible for their choices is entirely reasonable. How Tories feel about it is more or less irrelevant.TheJezziah said:
Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.TheScreamingEagles said:
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I had planned to write both my Sunday threads tonight and tomorrow because I'm busy all day Saturday.david_herdson said:
All of them, obviously.Benpointer said:
FFS Morris, why can't you quote! Which of DH's posts is 'rather good'?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Herdson, that's rather good.
Do you think this is a good weekend to write threads in advance?0 -
david_herdson said:
All of them, obviously.Benpointer said:
FFS Morris, why can't you quote! Which of DH's posts is 'rather good'?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Herdson, that's rather good.
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If you want Labour to govern, it is very easy - resign.Theo said:
A minority of the Conservative parliamentary party is being irresponsible. The entirety of the Labour parliamentary party is.Jonathan said:
Hmmm. Keep on saying it if it makes you feel better, but when Tory MPs are openly slagging off each other and sending open letters of no confidence in the PM to Brady, I think it's fair to say that this is not a Labour thing.Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
Good luck with that, Theo.Theo said:
A minority of the Conservative parliamentary party is being irresponsible. The entirety of the Labour parliamentary party is.Jonathan said:
Hmmm. Keep on saying it if it makes you feel better, but when Tory MPs are openly slagging off each other and sending open letters of no confidence in the PM to Brady, I think it's fair to say that this is not a Labour thing.Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.
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How to stop the vote from being a 50/50: a) enfranchise 16 year olds. Scotland is the precedent. b) allow UK citizens living overseas to vote postally. c) Have at least three options to be ranked in preference, without committing in advance to the methodology by which the findings will be presented.Richard_Nabavi said:
I think that must be the right thing to do. It's high-risk, for all the reasons we've explored, and highly unsatisfactory on a number of counts, but since there is no chance at all of the EU agreeing a better deal than the PM has managed to achieve, and since leaving without a deal would be absolutely catastrophic, the only possible way out if parliament won't accept the deal is to reverse the People's Vote, and the only possible way of doing that with sufficient democratic cover would be to re-run it. Of course, it would be a 50-50 shot at best, but that's better than a 100% chance of disaster. (And both are worse than a near-100% chance of a decent result, which parliament seem set to reject. Hey-ho)TheScreamingEagles said:
I reckon that takes it up to an 80% probability [/rorystewart]0 -
That's an exaggeration. I'm sure there's some shagging going on.TheScreamingEagles said:
Someone has described today as 'The last days of Caligula without the orgies and shagging'0 -
Theresa May is in an impossible position. There's no way she can satisfy all shades of opinion at the same time. But kudos to her for trying.0
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A content free response because you can't justify their behaviour.SouthamObserver said:
Good luck with that, Theo.Theo said:
A minority of the Conservative parliamentary party is being irresponsible. The entirety of the Labour parliamentary party is.Jonathan said:
Hmmm. Keep on saying it if it makes you feel better, but when Tory MPs are openly slagging off each other and sending open letters of no confidence in the PM to Brady, I think it's fair to say that this is not a Labour thing.Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
I should think it would strengthen her position considerably.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
I think it is 50/50 that the deal gets to a vote at some point, 99/1 that it fails. I think the responsible thing for the Commons to do is formally reject it. Even if it is obvious, as it is, that it won't get through, I think people should know how many would back it. The EU might be interested in the answer as well, since if we accept for the sake of argument they are up for some level of renegotiation, knowing how many would have accepted this offer might be a price for opening up renegotiation at all.Benpointer said:
You think the Tories will hold together long enough to actually put the deal to a vote?Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
If the leave plan was always to leave without a deal then they should have had the f*ing guts to say so during the referendum. Their lies and mendacity is beyond belief. Everything that has ever been said about the euro-loonies is being shown to be the case.Xenon said:
Cameron already went and got the best deal possible from the EU. The voters rejected this best deal and voted to leave.logical_song said:
Mr Jessop is right, Leave argued for all sorts of things but very few argued for 'No Deal' (is that what you mean by 'proerly leave'?)
Mrs May's deal would fulfil the referendum result even if it is Brexit In Name Only and worse than staying.
The leave vote wasn't for yet another renegotiation with the EU. Unfortunately this seems to be what it has become since they've decided not to plan to leave on WTO terms at all.0 -
Just co-ordinate it with the Labour Party and have a nice re-alignment.TheScreamingEagles said:
I think a split is a real possibility.stodge said:
Why don't you just split as Labour did over defence and Europe and everyone can be happy?TheScreamingEagles said:
Someone has described today as 'The last days of Caligula without the orgies and shagging'0 -
Which brings us to the core of the matter. You lot are willing to crash the economy, plunging millions of people into joblessness and poverty to get a shot at government. You people are selfish and disgusting.Jonathan said:
If you want Labour to govern, it is very easy - resign.Theo said:
A minority of the Conservative parliamentary party is being irresponsible. The entirety of the Labour parliamentary party is.Jonathan said:
Hmmm. Keep on saying it if it makes you feel better, but when Tory MPs are openly slagging off each other and sending open letters of no confidence in the PM to Brady, I think it's fair to say that this is not a Labour thing.Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
Sometimes leadership isn't about trying to satisfy mutually incompatible shades of opinion, it is showing some grit and leadership and accepting you'll annoy some people.AndyJS said:Theresa May is in an impossible position. There's no way she can satisfy all shades of opinion at the same time. But kudos to her for trying.
Instead she's show no backbone and simply wound down the clock until signing the deal the EU wrote for her. She doesn't deserve kudos for that.0 -
You should write a thread about that and use these images from the Day the Earth caught Fire.TheScreamingEagles said:
I had planned to write both my Sunday threads tonight and tomorrow because I'm busy all day Saturday.david_herdson said:
All of them, obviously.Benpointer said:
FFS Morris, why can't you quote! Which of DH's posts is 'rather good'?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Herdson, that's rather good.
Do you think this is a good weekend to write threads in advance?
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I didn't say otherwise(that the Tories will not take serious blame that is), what are you on about? Obviously the Tories take by far the largest hit because they are in power, but if parliament votes against everyone who did bears some responsibility for their actions if that then leads to a negative outcome. It is hardly controversial to suggest people are accountable for their actions, it is one of the principles of conduct in public life.IanB2 said:
Whatever, the Tories will carry the can for the outcome of this whole charade, which they own from start to finish.kle4 said:
You are evading the point - the deal being a mess is not Labour's doing. Voting down that mess is still Labour's own choice however. Maybe it is the right choice, we shall see. The fact of it being a mess may or may not justify that choice. But it will still be their choice and if that choice leads to a terrible no deal outcome that the Tories did a bad job doesn't take away Labour's choice.TheJezziah said:
I believe Labour and Corbyn should be, which is why they can't be held responsible for the current Tory mess. It is not their doing.Nigelb said:
Holding Labour, and Corbyn, responsible for their choices is entirely reasonable. How Tories feel about it is more or less irrelevant.TheJezziah said:
Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.TheScreamingEagles said:
Moreover, while I am not voting Tory again for a very long time at the least, it is very disheartening that people are still choosing to focus, overwhelmingly, on which party to blame the most right now and how much, and their leadership ambitions, etc etc.0 -
I think the Tories will hold together and I do not think Corbyn will be prime minister. Even if they cannot hold together on Europe. I cro not see a large amo7nt of personal support for Theresa May in the 40% support for Conservatives. A significant amount of this is against scared of a Corbyn style gov would do. Corbyn was 60 seats short last time and is now less popular, and if he looks like a contender he will then falter under the scrutiny.Benpointer said:
You think the Tories will hold together long enough to actually put the deal to a vote?Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
I love you too. You probably need to lie down. You're the one wanting Labour to ride to the rescue.Theo said:
Which brings us to the core of the matter. You lot are willing to crash the economy, plunging millions of people into joblessness and poverty to get a shot at government. You people are selfish and disgusting.Jonathan said:
If you want Labour to govern, it is very easy - resign.Theo said:
A minority of the Conservative parliamentary party is being irresponsible. The entirety of the Labour parliamentary party is.Jonathan said:
Hmmm. Keep on saying it if it makes you feel better, but when Tory MPs are openly slagging off each other and sending open letters of no confidence in the PM to Brady, I think it's fair to say that this is not a Labour thing.Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
We should all be grateful for small mercies.TheScreamingEagles said:
I think a split is a real possibility.stodge said:
Why don't you just split as Labour did over defence and Europe and everyone can be happy?TheScreamingEagles said:
Someone has described today as 'The last days of Caligula without the orgies and shagging'0 -
To discover that he has any judgment at all would be quite an achievement.OblitusSumMe said:
I have no sympathy for Grayling in the slightest as he's the Transport Secretary who doored a cyclist and then fled the scene.kle4 said:
Why are so many people still considering their position? This is not rocket science - either you support the deal, whether or not it would pass the Commons, or you don't. If you don;t you quit if you do you stay and take the consequences when it is voted down.TheScreamingEagles said:
There's not much to think about here when weighing options.
However, I do think it could take some time to decide between your personal loyalty to an individual you have supported closely for a long time and your personal judgement on a matter of policy. He must trust May's judgement to a considerable degree, so to find his own judgement in conflict with it must be a wrench.0 -
To be fair, I have been up and down all afternoon.Pro_Rata said:
It took him 2 hours, so he certainly hasn't lepton it.Anorak said:
Was ... was that a quark joke? Top drawer.Nigelb said:
A strange spelling... but it has a certain charm.TheScreamingEagles said:
Particle physics gives me a hadron.Jonathan said:Physics gives the biggest bangs.
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Good, it's pathetic and sad to see a party tear itself apart then swear they are all good buddies through broken teeth and bleeding faces.TheScreamingEagles said:
I think a split is a real possibility.stodge said:
Why don't you just split as Labour did over defence and Europe and everyone can be happy?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Well yes, but then Labour would have lost a bunch of seats to the tories at the next election.TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn may be stupid but having seen what happened to SLab on the whole "campaign with the Tories thingy" they weren't going to do that again.0 -
To the rescue of the nation. They don't need to worry that the government would last long afterwards after all.Jonathan said:
I love you too. You probably need to lie down. You're the one wanting Labour to ride to the rescue.Theo said:
Which brings us to the core of the matter. You lot are willing to crash the economy, plunging millions of people into joblessness and poverty to get a shot at government. You people are selfish and disgusting.Jonathan said:
If you want Labour to govern, it is very easy - resign.Theo said:
A minority of the Conservative parliamentary party is being irresponsible. The entirety of the Labour parliamentary party is.Jonathan said:
Hmmm. Keep on saying it if it makes you feel better, but when Tory MPs are openly slagging off each other and sending open letters of no confidence in the PM to Brady, I think it's fair to say that this is not a Labour thing.Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
The amusing thing which is being lost in the maelstrom is that, on the EU side, there are concerns that the deal is too favourable to the UK:
France, Spain, Denmark and the Netherlands are all understood to have serious concerns that a customs union has been handed to the UK without sufficient safeguards to ensure British companies cannot undercut European industry. They are likely to make their voices heard at a meeting of EU affairs ministers on Monday.
They are not grandstanding, this has been a consistent concern in some parts of the EU right from the start.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/15/theresa-may-brexit-deal-best-we-can-do-brussels-warns0 -
Sky: they are only finding third raters from the Gov to support Theresa. Alan Duncan is their top find!
Supporting this Deal is going to be CV strychnine for any of her wannabe successors. *Nobody* wants to touch it.
I understand Mr Gove is having his wisdom teeth fixed..
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I don't know about David Frum but there is nothing that would have delighted Glen O'Hara more than Labour losing scores of seats, so it is annoying to him that Corbyn isn't that stupid.Alistair said:
Well yes, but then Labour would have lost a bunch of seats to the tories at the next election.TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn may be stupid but having seen what happened to SLab on the whole "campaign with the Tories thingy" they weren't going to do that again.0 -
Angry, nah. Amused. I'm quite enjoying today.TheJezziah said:
I think your just consistent in being an angry man, Islamophobes are often angry people.JosiasJessop said:
LOL. I am not an Islamaphobe. Far from. I stand by my record on here of calling out Islamaphobia and anti-Semitism, and it says nothing positive about you that you descend to that level.TheJezziah said:
I know it can be confusing for Islamophobes such as yourself but Corbyn continuing Ed's policies opposing the occupation of Palestine isn't anti semitism. Embrace the realityJosiasJessop said:
Same can be said for you and Corbyn's anti-Semitism. Embrace the reality.TheJezziah said:
Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.TheScreamingEagles said:
But for the record, Corbyn's doing much more than than you say. And people should stop hiding their anti-Semitism behind anti-Zionism.
I should ask how bonfire night went for you. Did you mix up your Katyusha and sparklers?
I'm intrigued why you keep on calling me an Islamaphobe. As far as I can tell, it's because I say that both the Palestinians and Israelis have to make moves to peace, and that my calls for he Palestinian groups to stop launching rockets (or in your words, fireworks) are a sign of a feverish Islamaphobe.
Despite the fact I say the Israelis have more moves to make as well.
Is that it, or have I committed some other sin?0 -
Time to start hiding behind curtains.DavidL said:
We should all be grateful for small mercies.TheScreamingEagles said:
I think a split is a real possibility.stodge said:
Why don't you just split as Labour did over defence and Europe and everyone can be happy?TheScreamingEagles said:
Someone has described today as 'The last days of Caligula without the orgies and shagging'0 -
Gove is going to have to come out of hiding at some point. He can't stay in a quantum superposition of Brexit secretary/Not brexit secretary/resigned/unresigned forever.0
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Whoever takes it on is going to need to do some turbo-charged No Deal preparation. Basically, two years worth in two months....RochdalePioneers said:So was it confirmed at Gove refused to accept the Brexit Secretary job? If so May lost two of them in a day - some going
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Then I have good news for them, they will have a different PM to negotiate with by next week anyway.Richard_Nabavi said:The amusing thing which is being lost in the maelstrom is that, on the EU side, there are concerns that the deal is too favourable to the UK:
France, Spain, Denmark and the Netherlands are all understood to have serious concerns that a customs union has been handed to the UK without sufficient safeguards to ensure British companies cannot undercut European industry. They are likely to make their voices heard at a meeting of EU affairs ministers on Monday.
They are not grandstanding, this has been a consistent concern in some parts of the EU right from the start.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/15/theresa-may-brexit-deal-best-we-can-do-brussels-warns0 -
I've voted Tory in every election since 1997, and today's selfish and disgusting behaviour by the Tories will - in all likelihood - mean that I don't vote for them again. Given the state of Labour, I will probably end up just sitting at home. A plague on both their houses.Theo said:
Which brings us to the core of the matter. You lot are willing to crash the economy, plunging millions of people into joblessness and poverty to get a shot at government. You people are selfish and disgusting.Jonathan said:
If you want Labour to govern, it is very easy - resign.Theo said:
A minority of the Conservative parliamentary party is being irresponsible. The entirety of the Labour parliamentary party is.Jonathan said:
Hmmm. Keep on saying it if it makes you feel better, but when Tory MPs are openly slagging off each other and sending open letters of no confidence in the PM to Brady, I think it's fair to say that this is not a Labour thing.Theo said:
The Tory Party is putting forward and majority voting for a very workable Brexit Plan. It looks like the Labour Party is voting for the cliff edge crash.Jonathan said:
The grave of the Tory Party reads "Fuck Business"- Conservative Foreign Secretary* 2018.SouthamObserver said:
It is true, but it is totally irrelevant. We are where we are today because David Cameron was worried about UKIP, because a lot of right wing Tories sold an entirely unachievable prospectus to the electorate and because those same right wing Tories will not accept that. This Brexit was made in the Conservative party and is owned entirely by the Conservative party - which once could claim to be the patriotic, pro-business party without being laughed out of court.TheScreamingEagles said:
* Not a sackable offence.0 -
Not by next week. Next month, perhaps.kle4 said:
Then I have good news for them, they will have a different PM to negotiate with by next week anyway.Richard_Nabavi said:The amusing thing which is being lost in the maelstrom is that, on the EU side, there are concerns that the deal is too favourable to the UK:
France, Spain, Denmark and the Netherlands are all understood to have serious concerns that a customs union has been handed to the UK without sufficient safeguards to ensure British companies cannot undercut European industry. They are likely to make their voices heard at a meeting of EU affairs ministers on Monday.
They are not grandstanding, this has been a consistent concern in some parts of the EU right from the start.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/15/theresa-may-brexit-deal-best-we-can-do-brussels-warns0 -
That's not possible. No matter how much money or people you put into things sometimes they take time, you cannot do that much in that short space of time.MarqueeMark said:
Whoever takes it on is going to need to do some turbo-charged No Deal preparation. Basically, two years worth in two months....RochdalePioneers said:So was it confirmed at Gove refused to accept the Brexit Secretary job? If so May lost two of them in a day - some going
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Reporters said there were "genuine family reasons" so perhaps not todaygrabcocque said:Gove is going to have to come out of hiding at some point. He can't stay in a quantum superposition of Brexit secretary/Not brexit secretary/resigned/unresigned forever.
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Are we sure Theo isn't Archer? Its a high quality spoof if not0
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I've still not seen an answer as to why we need Brexit secretary. They seem to claim they never see anything until it is too late anyway, so just have the department report directly to the PM.grabcocque said:Gove is going to have to come out of hiding at some point. He can't stay in a quantum superposition of Brexit secretary/Not brexit secretary/resigned/unresigned forever.
It's one less Cabinet Minister to inevitably resign.0
This discussion has been closed.