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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Raab’s resignation sparks off huge movements on the TMay exit,

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  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    The UK’s scheme for ensuring power supplies during the winter months has been suspended after a ruling by the European court of justice that it constitutes illegal state aid.

    Payments under the £1bn capacity market scheme will be halted until the government can win permission from the European commission to restart it.

    The scheme subsidises owners of coal and gas power stations so the plants are ready to provide emergency backup in times of high demand. It started operating last year to ensure electricity for businesses and homes is available at peak times in winter.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/15/uk-backup-power-subsidies-illegal-european-court-capacity-market

    Perfect timing.
  • Hang on, I'm losing track: Has Penny Mordaunt resigned and been completely forgotten about in the general brouhaha, or is she still in Cabinet?

    She's not made it onto the Guardian liveblog as resigned, and they have a list with all the PPS resignations.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    "Keep Buggering On" hoping something would turn up to save the day. Churchill's mantra from WWII which was admirable at the time in the circumstances.

    Unfortunately for May and the country it now does massive damage.

    This deal will not pass Parliament. It is irrelevant to your views on Brexit what you think about that, its simply is. So determinedly buggering on to inevitable defeat and burning further time and patience isn't admirable, its stupid.

    Given May's constant refrain that the Brexit vote has to be respected, it looks ever more as though her bloody-minded determination to "Keep Buggering On" can only result in No Deal Brexit. Nothing else will respect the Brexit vote in the time she has left.

    You can see why some Brexiteers think it best to keep her in place.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Paging PB scientists.

    Can you name me two chemicals/elements that are perfectly harmless on their own but when combined results in danger/disaster.

    Hydrogen & Fluoride

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fluoride
    LZ 129 is my response to the idea that hydrogen is perfectky harmless.
    ON THEIR OWN was the criteria. Without oxygen, hydrogen doesn't do much at all.
    I thought hydrogen gas was quite corrosive, that being one of the difficulties with storing it for use in transport?
    You can make an argument that pretty much every element or compound is dangerous to some degree. Witness the water drinking competition "winner" in California, who died from hyponatremia (a.k.a water intoxication).

    http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jan/14/local/me-water14
  • chloechloe Posts: 308

    chloe said:

    How will some ERG vetted leader achieve something that will pass through parliament?

    i don't think they've thought that through. Unless they call a GE.
    Well they will loose an election.
  • Hang on, I'm losing track: Has Penny Mordaunt resigned and been completely forgotten about in the general brouhaha, or is she still in Cabinet?

    Still in the cabinet.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Only if the government is being managed by a man in a waistcoat.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,878

    Paging PB scientists.

    Can you name me two chemicals/elements that are perfectly harmless on their own but when combined results in danger/disaster.

    Pizza and Pineapple. (I appreciate they aren't elements, but they are very very dangerous when put together)

    ((I like pineapple on pizza by the way))
  • Hang on, I'm losing track: Has Penny Mordaunt resigned and been completely forgotten about in the general brouhaha, or is she still in Cabinet?

    Still in the cabinet.
    does JRM know:

    ""You have got Boris Johnson and David Davis. You have got Dominic Raab and Esther McVey. You have got Penny Mordaunt."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    "Keep Buggering On" hoping something would turn up to save the day. Churchill's mantra from WWII which was admirable at the time in the circumstances.

    Unfortunately for May and the country it now does massive damage.

    This deal will not pass Parliament. It is irrelevant to your views on Brexit what you think about that, its simply is. So determinedly buggering on to inevitable defeat and burning further time and patience isn't admirable, its stupid.

    Given May's constant refrain that the Brexit vote has to be respected, it looks ever more as though her bloody-minded determination to "Keep Buggering On" can only result in No Deal Brexit. Nothing else will respect the Brexit vote in the time she has left.

    You can see why some Brexiteers think it best to keep her in place.
    May is moving towards calling a referendum if she cannot get her Deal through, note she included No Brexit at all in future options last night as Remain almost certainly beats No Deal in EUref2 based on polling
  • Hang on, I'm losing track: Has Penny Mordaunt resigned and been completely forgotten about in the general brouhaha, or is she still in Cabinet?

    Still in the cabinet.
    JRM included her in the list of people who'd make excellent leaders, all of whom bar Mordaunt had left the government...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    chloe said:

    chloe said:

    How will some ERG vetted leader achieve something that will pass through parliament?

    i don't think they've thought that through. Unless they call a GE.
    Well they will loose an election.
    Do they need to - we're out on 29th March 2018, deal or no - unless we revoke Art 50.
  • JRM's 12/1 on next leader looks skinny if he won't stand
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    chloe said:

    How will some ERG vetted leader achieve something that will pass through parliament?

    i don't think they've thought that through. Unless they call a GE.
    What happens if said ERG vetted leader recommends No Deal and Parliament rejects that... Can they not just sit it out and wait for it to happen anyway?
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565

    chloe said:

    How will some ERG vetted leader achieve something that will pass through parliament?

    i don't think they've thought that through. Unless they call a GE.
    They're panicking and playing the only card they have left. Let's not mistake it for a great act of strategy. There's a good reason they haven't done this at any time since the Chequers deal was announced.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    stjohn said:

    If there is a VONC I think it would force May to say what would happen next if her deal is rejected by parliament. If she won't answer that question or if she answers it and Tory MPs don't like the answer then I think they may well vote her out.

    Most Tory MPs voted Remain remember, only 120 voted Leave and even fewer are ERG
  • Only if the government is being managed by a man in a waistcoat.
    I have a plethora of double breasted waistcoats.

    I find single breasted ones a bit plebian.
  • based on the ERG discussion, I'm not convinced any of them think they'd win the vote. The question is whether they'd try
  • XenonXenon Posts: 471
    HYUFD said:

    "Keep Buggering On" hoping something would turn up to save the day. Churchill's mantra from WWII which was admirable at the time in the circumstances.

    Unfortunately for May and the country it now does massive damage.

    This deal will not pass Parliament. It is irrelevant to your views on Brexit what you think about that, its simply is. So determinedly buggering on to inevitable defeat and burning further time and patience isn't admirable, its stupid.

    Given May's constant refrain that the Brexit vote has to be respected, it looks ever more as though her bloody-minded determination to "Keep Buggering On" can only result in No Deal Brexit. Nothing else will respect the Brexit vote in the time she has left.

    You can see why some Brexiteers think it best to keep her in place.
    May is moving towards calling a referendum if she cannot get her Deal through, note she included No Brexit at all in future options last night as Remain almost certainly beats No Deal in EUref2 based on polling
    I doubt it if it includes signing up to Schengen and the Euro.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    edited November 2018
    stjohn said:

    If there is a VONC I think it would force May to say what would happen next if her deal is rejected by parliament. If she won't answer that question or if she answers it and Tory MPs don't like the answer then I think they may well vote her out.

    Wise words.
  • The thing is, JRM doesn't seem to want No Deal either:

    13:47 Rees-Mogg says the government should go back to Brussels and tell them that the UK will leave without a deal, and trade on WTO terms.

    It would be sensible to make “a generous offer” to the EU, including on the rights of EU nationals and money in return for a transition deal.


    But isn't the latter exactly what Theresa May has done?
  • Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Paging PB scientists.

    Can you name me two chemicals/elements that are perfectly harmless on their own but when combined results in danger/disaster.

    Hydrogen & Fluoride

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fluoride
    LZ 129 is my response to the idea that hydrogen is perfectky harmless.
    ON THEIR OWN was the criteria. Without oxygen, hydrogen doesn't do much at all.
    I thought hydrogen gas was quite corrosive, that being one of the difficulties with storing it for use in transport?
    You can make an argument that pretty much every element or compound is dangerous to some degree. Witness the water drinking competition "winner" in California, who died from hyponatremia (a.k.a water intoxication).

    http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jan/14/local/me-water14
    Yes, the original question was ill-posed, but we can reinterpret it to provide a useful answer by considering relative danger. I'd say that elemental carbon and nitrogen were both less dangerous than elemental hydrogen.
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    So after the pre lunch excitement, still no announcement. Have the ERG cried wolf yet again?
  • The thing is, JRM doesn't seem to want No Deal either:

    13:47 Rees-Mogg says the government should go back to Brussels and tell them that the UK will leave without a deal, and trade on WTO terms.

    It would be sensible to make “a generous offer” to the EU, including on the rights of EU nationals and money in return for a transition deal.


    But isn't the latter exactly what Theresa May has done?

    Hush, stop making sense.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Pulpstar said:

    chloe said:

    chloe said:

    How will some ERG vetted leader achieve something that will pass through parliament?

    i don't think they've thought that through. Unless they call a GE.
    Well they will loose an election.
    Do they need to - we're out on 29th March 2018, deal or no - unless we revoke Art 50.
    2019 - unless I missed it?
  • The thing is, JRM doesn't seem to want No Deal either:

    13:47 Rees-Mogg says the government should go back to Brussels and tell them that the UK will leave without a deal, and trade on WTO terms.

    It would be sensible to make “a generous offer” to the EU, including on the rights of EU nationals and money in return for a transition deal.


    But isn't the latter exactly what Theresa May has done?

    Hush, stop making sense.
    Sorreee!
  • XenonXenon Posts: 471
    I think we need Mogg now.
    Someone who actually believes in Brexit and tries to make it work.
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    Mr. Urquhart, that sounds quite mad.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    DavidL said:
    The one who wields the knife doesn't become Caesar.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Pulpstar said:

    chloe said:

    chloe said:

    How will some ERG vetted leader achieve something that will pass through parliament?

    i don't think they've thought that through. Unless they call a GE.
    Well they will loose an election.
    Do they need to - we're out on 29th March 2018, deal or no - unless we revoke Art 50.
    2019 - unless I missed it?
    THat was in an alternative universe, the one next to UK-votes-Remain-Universe
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Given that the Cabinet approved the deal yesterday, am I right in thinking that but for Gina Miller's intervention, Mrs. May would now be free to trundle over to Brussels with her signing pen?

    Gina. Hur hur hur......
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Paging PB scientists.

    Can you name me two chemicals/elements that are perfectly harmless on their own but when combined results in danger/disaster.

    Hydrogen & Fluoride

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fluoride
    LZ 129 is my response to the idea that hydrogen is perfectky harmless.
    ON THEIR OWN was the criteria. Without oxygen, hydrogen doesn't do much at all.
    I thought hydrogen gas was quite corrosive, that being one of the difficulties with storing it for use in transport?
    You can make an argument that pretty much every element or compound is dangerous to some degree. Witness the water drinking competition "winner" in California, who died from hyponatremia (a.k.a water intoxication).

    http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jan/14/local/me-water14
    Yes, the original question was ill-posed, but we can reinterpret it to provide a useful answer by considering relative danger. I'd say that elemental carbon and nitrogen were both less dangerous than elemental hydrogen.
    Yes, I would agree with that. However it's very, very easy to make oxygen and hydrogen go 'pop', or 'kabooom'.

    Creating cyanide is trickier, though not that tricky (it can be done by flowing ammonia over a hot charcoal barbecue).
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited November 2018
    JRM's point about masses of talent in the Tory ranks is very true. There are some immensely capable people. Raab is an obvious one, which is why Labour went hard at him. There are others who could do a much better job than Theresa May.

    The EU is a pretty corrupt, often unaccountable and disunited group. A brilliant politician, properly advised by people who believe in Brexit (i.e. not Ollie Robbins) and with guts will get a MUCH better deal for Britain.

    We should enact a 12 month extension on Article 50. A new Tory leader will throw a bone to Remainers by offering that ALL options will be on the table in Parliament i.e. a second vote. That will bring down May and we can sort out this mess once and for all.

    In terms of the EU, it's actually not that hard. You just have to stand up to bullies.

    We have two real choices aside from the No Deal.

    1. Stay in the EU and reform it by the scruff of its neck Trump-style. Why? Because it's in a shambolic state.

    or

    2. Negotiate a much better deal for Britain and then leave.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728


    Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
    Same can be said for you and Corbyn's anti-Semitism. Embrace the reality. ;)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    edited November 2018

    Given that the Cabinet approved the deal yesterday, am I right in thinking that but for Gina Miller's intervention, Mrs. May would now be free to trundle over to Brussels with her signing pen?

    Gina. Hur hur hur......

    it has been a consistent feature of Brexit that so called smart moves end up shooting the instigator in both feet
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Given that the Cabinet approved the deal yesterday, am I right in thinking that but for Gina Miller's intervention, Mrs. May would now be free to trundle over to Brussels with her signing pen?

    Gina. Hur hur hur......

    Wouldn't she be a People's Voter? She certainly wouldn't want this deal, or any other, going through in that case
  • Anorak said:
    I wish people would take him more seriously, I've got a big green to shift there
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Of course, expecting anyone new to "fix" the deal is delusional in the extreme.

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1063054601228898310
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900

    The thing is, JRM doesn't seem to want No Deal either:

    13:47 Rees-Mogg says the government should go back to Brussels and tell them that the UK will leave without a deal, and trade on WTO terms.

    It would be sensible to make “a generous offer” to the EU, including on the rights of EU nationals and money in return for a transition deal.


    But isn't the latter exactly what Theresa May has done?


    Mogg didn't even read the deal before going off the deep end. He probably still hasn't.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    DavidL said:
    The one who wields the knife doesn't become Caesar.
    But he'll never get those blood stains out now, will he?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Only if the government is being managed by a man in a waistcoat.
    I have a plethora of double breasted waistcoats.

    I find single breasted ones a bit plebian.

    Waistcoats (of any type) haven't been plebian since before the war. Keep up!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181


    Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
    It's not Labour's fault that the deal is what it is, clearly. However, if Labour pursue a GE or alternative negotiation and we have no deal as a result, that would be, in part, a consequence of their action, even though the Tories would still be principally at fault. Labour have the votes to sink a deal. It may be the right choice, it may not, but it is within their power.
  • Anorak said:

    Of course, expecting anyone new to "fix" the deal is delusional in the extreme.

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1063054601228898310

    again blows labour policy out of the water.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    edited November 2018
    Anorak said:

    Of course, expecting anyone new to "fix" the deal is delusional in the extreme.

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1063054601228898310

    Brits have spent too much time thinking they are going back in to the Europe of 2016, Merkel et al have too many other problems without extending Brexit. They want it over.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Given that the Cabinet approved the deal yesterday, am I right in thinking that but for Gina Miller's intervention, Mrs. May would now be free to trundle over to Brussels with her signing pen?

    Gina. Hur hur hur......

    it has been a consistent feature of Brexit that so called smart moves end up shooting the instigator in both feet
    Although, of course, it might be that the requirement to get past the HoC has prevented MAy just doing the No Deal thing.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    How long before some utter twat on twitter makes reference to Frum's religion?
  • Anorak said:

    Of course, expecting anyone new to "fix" the deal is delusional in the extreme.

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1063054601228898310

    Brits have spent too much time thinking they are going back in to the Europe of 2016, Merkel ey al have too many other problems without extending Brexit. They want it over.
    If that was the case the way to get it over with would be to make concessions that would be acceptable to Parliament. They've not done that.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    Afternoon all :)

    I managed to catch a little of May in the Commons - she reminded me of one of those boxers up against the ropes gloves protecting the head absorbing the blows and hoping to land an occasional counter punch.

    For all the accolades from her apologists (many of whom are more terrified of the alternatives), it didn't make for easy viewing.

    How will this play out? Naturally, May will have plenty of supporters and plenty will want to blame the EU who seem to have negotiated this well from their side. We aren't used to and we don't like the notion of being humiliated - remember the outrage when we lost to Iceland in the football?

    How will the sense of humiliation play out? It could be focussed on the EU and I suspect anti-EU sentiments will be further entrenched - it could be focussed on May who will have to carry the can for what seems in the latter stage to have been a process she very largely owned.

    Yet her trump card (poor choice of words I admit) isn't Corbyn but Mark Carney. His apocalyptic briefing on the possible consequences of "No Deal" has shored up her support and has left others questioning whether the consequences of voting down the Deal are so horrendous as to make voting for a bad, unsatisfactory Deal the only option.

    The problem is we have left it appallingly late to make proper preparation for No Deal and that is as much a fault of political leadership as not making provision for a LEAVE victory in 2016.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Scott_P said:
    Ah I see - he really is an idiot then.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    Hang on, I'm losing track: Has Penny Mordaunt resigned and been completely forgotten about in the general brouhaha, or is she still in Cabinet?

    She's not made it onto the Guardian liveblog as resigned, and they have a list with all the PPS resignations.
    Some of these PPS's have real jobs.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840


    Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
    Same can be said for you and Corbyn's anti-Semitism. Embrace the reality. ;)
    I know it can be confusing for Islamophobes such as yourself but Corbyn continuing Ed's policies opposing the occupation of Palestine isn't anti semitism. Embrace the reality ;)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    The thing is, JRM doesn't seem to want No Deal either:

    13:47 Rees-Mogg says the government should go back to Brussels and tell them that the UK will leave without a deal, and trade on WTO terms.

    It would be sensible to make “a generous offer” to the EU, including on the rights of EU nationals and money in return for a transition deal.


    But isn't the latter exactly what Theresa May has done?

    No - she has started from EU membership and tried to subtract.

    An alternative would be to start with WTO and offer additions in return for £.

  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Nobody ever criticizes May for her totally half-assed support of Remain, though
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    edited November 2018

    Anorak said:

    Of course, expecting anyone new to "fix" the deal is delusional in the extreme.

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1063054601228898310

    Brits have spent too much time thinking they are going back in to the Europe of 2016, Merkel ey al have too many other problems without extending Brexit. They want it over.
    If that was the case the way to get it over with would be to make concessions that would be acceptable to Parliament. They've not done that.
    If they make concessions theyll get asked for more. Why would you ?

    The only thing which helps May today is it seriosuly reduces the chances of an EU27 member blocking the deal with extra demands of their own. Theyll get leant on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301


    Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
    Holding Labour, and Corbyn, responsible for their choices is entirely reasonable. How Tories feel about it is more or less irrelevant.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325
    So I guess now the question is whether reasonable Labour MPs care about their country more than the ERG.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    TGOHF said:

    The thing is, JRM doesn't seem to want No Deal either:

    13:47 Rees-Mogg says the government should go back to Brussels and tell them that the UK will leave without a deal, and trade on WTO terms.

    It would be sensible to make “a generous offer” to the EU, including on the rights of EU nationals and money in return for a transition deal.


    But isn't the latter exactly what Theresa May has done?

    No - she has started from EU membership and tried to subtract.

    An alternative would be to start with WTO and offer additions in return for £.

    et Barnier, il dit "NON"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    TGOHF said:

    The thing is, JRM doesn't seem to want No Deal either:

    13:47 Rees-Mogg says the government should go back to Brussels and tell them that the UK will leave without a deal, and trade on WTO terms.

    It would be sensible to make “a generous offer” to the EU, including on the rights of EU nationals and money in return for a transition deal.


    But isn't the latter exactly what Theresa May has done?

    No - she has started from EU membership and tried to subtract.

    An alternative would be to start with WTO and offer additions in return for £.

    You think we'll get another 2 years to figure that out?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Ah I see - he really is an idiot then.
    The evidence is mounting up.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Theo said:

    So I guess now the question is whether reasonable Labour MPs care about their country more than the ERG.

    Theo, May isn't going to find 50 rebels from nowhere. Why on earth should Labourites rebel if the Tories can't win their own backbenches over.

  • Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
    Glen is a Labour supporter.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    TGOHF said:

    The thing is, JRM doesn't seem to want No Deal either:

    13:47 Rees-Mogg says the government should go back to Brussels and tell them that the UK will leave without a deal, and trade on WTO terms.

    It would be sensible to make “a generous offer” to the EU, including on the rights of EU nationals and money in return for a transition deal.


    But isn't the latter exactly what Theresa May has done?

    No - she has started from EU membership and tried to subtract.

    An alternative would be to start with WTO and offer additions in return for £.

    That's what she did, but it doesn't work because the reality is that our economy is configured on the basis of being inside the single market and customs union. You can't expect the other side to suspend disbelief in order to make your fantasy negotiating strategy work.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    Anorak said:

    Of course, expecting anyone new to "fix" the deal is delusional in the extreme.

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1063054601228898310

    again blows labour policy out of the water.
    No one ever believed it. It was merely a snake oil position pushed by hard leftists to convince moderate Labour MPs to collapse the economy so Corbyn can come to power.
  • I'm intrigued that so many people claim this deal will not pass Parliament.

    This deal in its current form clearly won't pass at a first attempt, and it is clear that the PM thinks she had got as good as she could from the negotiations upto this point.

    What we now have given the EU in the past 24 hours is a very clear picture that the deal as constructed is not enough. We've showcased this morning all of the bits that can not be accepted by one group or another. We've allowed the mediaevalists in the DUP to show they are dead set on going down in flames, and we've shown that this could easily cost the PM her job and the alternatives are (mostly) pretty disastrous (JC or an ERGer).

    The routes to a GE are almost non-existent. The routes to another referendum are IMHO unlikely, divisive and probably not decisive. That is a bad route and we don't have the time to anyway.

    So, as with all complex stalemates in the end-game of negotiations, we now need something to happen to create the required movement. The last 24 hours should be enough to convince the EU we are not bluffing, the deal won't pass and no deal (even if mitigated by mini-deals) really is the unwelcome alternative.

    It may be enough to enable Mrs May to go back and screw more out of the EU now, or we may need it to fail at the first attempt.

    Time-limiting the backstop with a unilateral exit mechanism and making both ends of the swimming pool more equal in depth, (coupled with more flesh on the future relationship outline) might be enough to turn this deal into something that can pass parliament at the second attempt.

    But the past 24 hours may not be enough for Mrs May to get that final movement. It may need a quick change of PM to Mr Raab to go back with this draft and screw the necessary concessions out of the EU team and re-present it to parliament. He is probably the only one who could pick up the mantle quickly with reasonable confidence from both wings of the party, and not entail us going back to square one.





  • DavidL said:

    Hang on, I'm losing track: Has Penny Mordaunt resigned and been completely forgotten about in the general brouhaha, or is she still in Cabinet?

    She's not made it onto the Guardian liveblog as resigned, and they have a list with all the PPS resignations.
    Some of these PPS's have real jobs.
    Yes, my point was that the Guardian's desire for completeness included them, indeed it includes a Downing Street official who has also resigned, even though politically there is a tendency to overlook them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    edited November 2018
    Theo said:

    So I guess now the question is whether reasonable Labour MPs care about their country more than the ERG.

    That's not a question. Labour policy is to try and get a Labour government, which by definition they regard as being what is best for the country. They are for the most part also clear they don't believe no deal is a real possibility, therefore they see no risk in voting it down, particularly when 40-80 Tories are already voting against.

    There's just no incentive for them to vote in favour - even if some do believe no deal is real and a GE is not viable (and many of the potential ones have already said the deal is no good), not enough of them agree to get it through so why bother?

    It's a shame, but there's no path to an approval here.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    kle4 said:


    Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
    It's not Labour's fault that the deal is what it is, clearly. However, if Labour pursue a GE or alternative negotiation and we have no deal as a result, that would be, in part, a consequence of their action, even though the Tories would still be principally at fault. Labour have the votes to sink a deal. It may be the right choice, it may not, but it is within their power.
    Everyone is of course responsible to some degree that is arguable but the current state of things is almost entirely in the hands of the Conservative party. What happens from here might have more input from Labour but the Conservatives have mostly arrived here themselves.

    Corbyn didn't campaign bla bla (whilst delivering a similar remain percentage to the Lib Dems and SNP) might be a nice bedtime story for Tory remainers who can't accept their parties part in things but arguing the current situation is anything but almost entirely the Tories fault is just completely detached from reality.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    kle4 said:

    Theo said:

    So I guess now the question is whether reasonable Labour MPs care about their country more than the ERG.

    That's not a question. Labour policy is to try and get a Labour government, which by definition they regard as being what is best for the country. They are for the most part also clear they don't believe no deal is a real possibility, therefore they see no risk in voting it down, particularly when 40-80 Tories are already voting against.

    There's just no incentive for them to vote in favour - even if some do believe no deal is real and a GE is not viable (and many of the potential ones have already said the deal is no good), not enough of them agree to get it through so why bother?

    It's a shame, but there's no path to an approval here.
    Sadly agree with that. Irony is that we will end up sleepwalking into No Deal because of that line of thinking.

    I've stockpiled beans and bottled water.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Obviously nobody would try to predict what time a Grayling-managed resignation will arrive.

  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,712
    Betfair 2018 GE now 23 on Betfair - not sure why as now legally impossible to have GE before Christmas - as minimum 5 weeks between dissolution and GE - Thur 20 Dec is 5 weeks from today.

    Thur 27 Dec still legally possible but surely completely inconceivable.
  • Wags are commenting that it's typical that Grayling's resignation is running several hours late. Blame is being ascribed to Leavers on the line.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    kle4 said:


    Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
    It's not Labour's fault that the deal is what it is, clearly. However, if Labour pursue a GE or alternative negotiation and we have no deal as a result, that would be, in part, a consequence of their action, even though the Tories would still be principally at fault. Labour have the votes to sink a deal. It may be the right choice, it may not, but it is within their power.
    Everyone is of course responsible to some degree that is arguable but the current state of things is almost entirely in the hands of the Conservative party. What happens from here might have more input from Labour but the Conservatives have mostly arrived here themselves.

    Corbyn didn't campaign bla bla (whilst delivering a similar remain percentage to the Lib Dems and SNP) might be a nice bedtime story for Tory remainers who can't accept their parties part in things but arguing the current situation is anything but almost entirely the Tories fault is just completely detached from reality.
    It would clearly be wrong to say Labour are more at fault. The government of the day must bear most responsibility.

    But if no deal occurs and is as bad as people say the people who decided that do bear some responsibility, and it is parliament's decision and therefore its collective responsibility if it fails to get through. The crapness of a deal would be some level of excuse, but if people would rather no deal than crap deal then they are lying about thinking no deal is so bad.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    "huge blow"

    I do not think those words mean what he thinks they mean.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    @Theo, @RobinWiggs, @TGOHF The EU are not going to revisit this deal. It's the most wishful thinking of the highest order.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    The thing is, JRM doesn't seem to want No Deal either:

    13:47 Rees-Mogg says the government should go back to Brussels and tell them that the UK will leave without a deal, and trade on WTO terms.

    It would be sensible to make “a generous offer” to the EU, including on the rights of EU nationals and money in return for a transition deal.


    But isn't the latter exactly what Theresa May has done?

    No - she has started from EU membership and tried to subtract.

    An alternative would be to start with WTO and offer additions in return for £.

    That's what she did, but it doesn't work because the reality is that our economy is configured on the basis of being inside the single market and customs union. You can't expect the other side to suspend disbelief in order to make your fantasy negotiating strategy work.
    That's because they didn't see us assuming no deal in execution.

    A bold and radical prospectus for a new modern economy presented 18 months ago could have got us in decent nick for no deal.

    Assume the worst and any deal with the EU is a bonus should have been the approach.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The thing is, JRM doesn't seem to want No Deal either:

    13:47 Rees-Mogg says the government should go back to Brussels and tell them that the UK will leave without a deal, and trade on WTO terms.

    It would be sensible to make “a generous offer” to the EU, including on the rights of EU nationals and money in return for a transition deal.


    But isn't the latter exactly what Theresa May has done?

    No - she has started from EU membership and tried to subtract.

    An alternative would be to start with WTO and offer additions in return for £.

    That's what she did, but it doesn't work because the reality is that our economy is configured on the basis of being inside the single market and customs union. You can't expect the other side to suspend disbelief in order to make your fantasy negotiating strategy work.
    That's because they didn't see us assuming no deal in execution.

    A bold and radical prospectus for a new modern economy presented 18 months ago could have got us in decent nick for no deal.

    Assume the worst and any deal with the EU is a bonus should have been the approach.
    +1
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    MikeL said:

    Betfair 2018 GE now 23 on Betfair - not sure why as now legally impossible to have GE before Christmas - as minimum 5 weeks between dissolution and GE - Thur 20 Dec is 5 weeks from today.

    Thur 27 Dec still legally possible but surely completely inconceivable.

    Couldn’t Parliament legislate to reduce the 5 weeks if a crisis demands it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    edited November 2018
    Why are so many people still considering their position? This is not rocket science - either you support the deal, whether or not it would pass the Commons, or you don't. If you don;t you quit if you do you stay and take the consequences when it is voted down.

    There's not much to think about here when weighing options.
  • "huge blow"

    I do not think those words mean what he thinks they mean.
    I'm sure there's a felatio joke to be made there.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Wags are commenting that it's typical that Grayling's resignation is running several hours late. Blame is being ascribed to Leavers on the line.
    LOL
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited November 2018


    Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
    Glen is a Labour supporter.
    I have been reading his twitter account for months now...

    If he is a Labour supporter I am a Thatcherite, the thing he most insults is Labour.

    He may be a Blairite I guess which is mostly covered by the label Tory. He would rather blame the left for what is happening than the right because that is where his natural loyalty lies. Like yourself, except your not Blairite.

    Edit: and you don't insult Labour as much as him.

    Come to think of it if he really is in some way actually Labour can we swap him for you, you are far more complimentary and less insulting about Labour than him. No need to even change your opinions.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    kle4 said:

    Why are so many people still considering their position? This is not rocket science - either you support the deal, whether or not it would pass the Commons, or you don't. If you don;t you quit if you do you stay and take the consequences when it is voted down.

    There's not much to think about here when weighing options.
    Because they're all a bunch of egoists and grandstanders.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621


    Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
    Glen is a Labour supporter.
    I have been reading his twitter account for months now...

    If he is a Labour supporter I am a Thatcherite, the thing he most insults is Labour.

    He may be a Blairite I guess which is mostly covered by the label Tory. He would rather blame the left for what is happening than the right because that is where his natural loyalty lies. Like yourself, except your not Blairite.
    A fine parody. Well done!
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    I'm intrigued that so many people claim this deal will not pass Parliament.

    This deal in its current form clearly won't pass at a first attempt, and it is clear that the PM thinks she had got as good as she could from the negotiations upto this point.

    What we now have given the EU in the past 24 hours is a very clear picture that the deal as constructed is not enough. We've showcased this morning all of the bits that can not be accepted by one group or another. We've allowed the mediaevalists in the DUP to show they are dead set on going down in flames, and we've shown that this could easily cost the PM her job and the alternatives are (mostly) pretty disastrous (JC or an ERGer).

    The routes to a GE are almost non-existent. The routes to another referendum are IMHO unlikely, divisive and probably not decisive. That is a bad route and we don't have the time to anyway.

    So, as with all complex stalemates in the end-game of negotiations, we now need something to happen to create the required movement. The last 24 hours should be enough to convince the EU we are not bluffing, the deal won't pass and no deal (even if mitigated by mini-deals) really is the unwelcome alternative.

    It may be enough to enable Mrs May to go back and screw more out of the EU now, or we may need it to fail at the first attempt.

    Time-limiting the backstop with a unilateral exit mechanism and making both ends of the swimming pool more equal in depth, (coupled with more flesh on the future relationship outline) might be enough to turn this deal into something that can pass parliament at the second attempt.

    But the past 24 hours may not be enough for Mrs May to get that final movement. It may need a quick change of PM to Mr Raab to go back with this draft and screw the necessary concessions out of the EU team and re-present it to parliament. He is probably the only one who could pick up the mantle quickly with reasonable confidence from both wings of the party, and not entail us going back to square one.

    The EU have made it clear. This is the deal. It's this, crash and burn or (maybe) remain.

    Crash and burn will hurt them too, yes, but clearly either they don't think it'll hurt enough to make them interested in budging or they think that to avoid crash and burn we'll plead to remain.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Polruan said:

    MikeL said:

    Betfair 2018 GE now 23 on Betfair - not sure why as now legally impossible to have GE before Christmas - as minimum 5 weeks between dissolution and GE - Thur 20 Dec is 5 weeks from today.

    Thur 27 Dec still legally possible but surely completely inconceivable.

    Couldn’t Parliament legislate to reduce the 5 weeks if a crisis demands it?
    And how would a Commons and Lords this divided manage to do that?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752

    Wags are commenting that it's typical that Grayling's resignation is running several hours late. Blame is being ascribed to Leavers on the line.
    "The wrong kind of Leave."
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Nigelb said:


    Blaming Labour for the current mess may make some Tories feel better about themselves but they would probably be better off confronting reality.
    Holding Labour, and Corbyn, responsible for their choices is entirely reasonable. How Tories feel about it is more or less irrelevant.
    I believe Labour and Corbyn should be, which is why they can't be held responsible for the current Tory mess. It is not their doing.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Why are so many people still considering their position? This is not rocket science - either you support the deal, whether or not it would pass the Commons, or you don't. If you don;t you quit if you do you stay and take the consequences when it is voted down.

    There's not much to think about here when weighing options.
    Because they're all a bunch of egoists and grandstanders.
    Because if you choose wrong, your political career (or at least your leadership ambition) is over.

    And nobody really has any clue what the fuck is going on, so you're gonna wargame the possibilities carefully.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    Lammy says May "was handed a sticky wicket".
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    stjohn said:
    What about Lord Falconer?
This discussion has been closed.