politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa’s Tories drop to their lowest level yet on the Commons
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You've just deflected. Maybe you should answer my point? Tories are not evil. They may see the world differently but they are not out to hurt people. What ever happened to respecting your opponent?bigjohnowls said:p
When did you last attend a foodbank. I find the suffering of people. nearly all of whom are in work, distressing
There has been a human cost to left wing policies in history too.0 -
Nuttall is no Farage though, and the SNP are coming off high tide in Scotland. And Tim Farron has been completely drowned out. So perhaps inevitable.AndyJS said:One thing we can all agree on. It'll be a bit embarrassing for Ed Miliband if Corbyn gets a higher share of the vote than he did.
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I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.Chameleon said:
Also just to add to your 'vile human being' bit, perhaps you need to consider what made people take up these views in the first place. While I agree that there are people of my generation (16-24) that are vile in their opinions towards those that have benefited so much from Government policies, if there wasn't so much unfairness in the system then they likely wouldn't have these views.Chameleon said:
For what it is worth, I usually consider myself a fiscal conservative. However the policies of both parties over the past few decades have enriched the baby-boomers beyond belief, and as their demands on the state grow (e.g. healthcare) the burden to fund this has been put on the young, not the old. Until the balance has been fixed we can expect a further rise in radical politics.ydoethur said:
That's an interesting post, highlighting the greed, selfishness and moral cowardice that underpins Labour - we'll take what we want because we are good people and deserve it and you are evil and we hate you all. It always has been fundamental to Labour of course (look up Emmanuel Shinwell if you don't believe me) but I don't think I've ever seen quite such a stunning lack of self-awareness of it, not even in O'Farrell's memoirs (where he admits in the 1980s he was essentially a Fascist).Chameleon said:
Ehh, from my perspective he can make a better future for the next 10 or so years, by the time the debts are called in I can then be living & working in a different country.
Tony Blair persuaded people that actually it wasn't the case and Labour did care about real people with real lives for a while, but Labour (a) failed to actually capitalise on that by a significant rejigging of our economy and welfare system when they had the chance and (b) has forgotten that painfully learned lesson that actually most people really do see them with a clear eye and hate them not because of MSM bias but because loads of them are truly vile human beings.
I have always thought it is no coincidence that the leaders of both the Fascist and Communist parties in this country emerged from Labour. I wonder if we're about to see history repeat itself there?
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.0 -
Before my time. Sometimes it might well both work and be appropriate, as of course governments do pull the same trick as the opposition, giving something a name in an effort to shape its perception. But I'd bet it is usually the opposite, a cynical branding only.Yorkcity said:
Poll tax seemed more sensible than community charge .kle4 said:
The names taxes get given are rarely sensible. Heck, the word tax gets applied to things that aren't taxes!Alistair said:Calling it a garden tax is f'ing stupid as a garden doesn't have planning permission to build on so would be low value.
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One that hasn't caught on is the train tax. I'd love to ask Jezza if the cost of my season ticket (£3,130) would come down if the railways were nationalised. I reckon about £2,200 covers the running cost and the tiny profit Stagecoach make on the franchise. The rest goes to the government in premium payments (i.e. tax). But I bet Jezza doesn't know about that.kle4 said:
The names taxes get given are rarely sensible. Heck, the word tax gets applied to things that aren't taxes!Alistair said:Calling it a garden tax is f'ing stupid as a garden doesn't have planning permission to build on so would be low value.
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Hastings & Rye - YouGov
Labour 45%
Conservatives 42%0 -
Hanretty
Low Seats High Swing
Conservatives 331 379 426 49
Labour 150 195 241 -37
Liberal Democrats 2 7 15 -1
SNP 34 46 55 -10
Plaid Cymru 1 2 4 -1
Greens 0 1 2 0
UKIP 0 1 5 0
Other 1 1 1 0
YouGov are geniuses, or fools. But they aren't herding at least, with most in the Hanretty range instead.0 -
What would you call the bedroom tax then that is more recent .kle4 said:
Before my time. Sometimes it might well both work and be appropriate, as of course governments do pull the same trick as the opposition, giving something a name in an effort to shape its perception. But I'd bet it is usually the opposite, a cynical branding only.Yorkcity said:
Poll tax seemed more sensible than community charge .kle4 said:
The names taxes get given are rarely sensible. Heck, the word tax gets applied to things that aren't taxes!Alistair said:Calling it a garden tax is f'ing stupid as a garden doesn't have planning permission to build on so would be low value.
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Isn't it extraordinary that Mr. Corbyn and most of the other participants would not shake Paul Nuttall;s hand. Just a simple want of courtesy and certainly JC has shaken the hands of far worse people!0
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The reduction or removal of a benefit, which even if it is terrible, is not a tax.Yorkcity said:
What would you call the bedroom tax then that is more recent .kle4 said:
Before my time. Sometimes it might well both work and be appropriate, as of course governments do pull the same trick as the opposition, giving something a name in an effort to shape its perception. But I'd bet it is usually the opposite, a cynical branding only.Yorkcity said:
Poll tax seemed more sensible than community charge .kle4 said:
The names taxes get given are rarely sensible. Heck, the word tax gets applied to things that aren't taxes!Alistair said:Calling it a garden tax is f'ing stupid as a garden doesn't have planning permission to build on so would be low value.
But I still refer to it as the bedroom tax. It's what most people know it as.0 -
Miss Aco
Agreed. Problem I have is that I am warming to Jezza. His policies are as left wing as er, Harold Wilson's. And he's been by far the best leader in the campaign. McMao and Abbott? Yeah, major negatives. I'd need assurances that centrists would hold senior positions in Cabinet.0 -
Ha.Alistair said:Calling it a garden tax is f'ing stupid as a garden doesn't have planning permission to build on so would be low value.
Houses with gardens are being knocked down all over the place and being replaced by flats and multiple houses/ homes. I see this happening every day with my own eyes. Repeat... I am seeing it.
What world are you living in?
People will be shafted by this tax. If they are not to be there is no point to it. It is labours intention to shaft these people and when they have got them by the short and curlies they will shaft them out of existance. This is just one of their mechanisms to squeeze the wealth out of people and give ir to anybody willing to piss it up the wall.0 -
I'd love to see a Question Time episode where a garage mechanic said something like "Terrorist suspects? Why don't we just shoot them?"leomckinstry said:The BBC has to do something about their audience selection for QT audiences. There was no way that lot were representative of the British public. Typically, they vociferously cheered unilateral disarmament, when the vast majority of voters support the nuclear deterrent; even Corbyn has had to backtrack on his personal beliefs on that point because of the strength of the public opinion. It never ceases to amaze me how on QT we have endless interventions from students and public sector employees, all decrying the wicked Tories. "As a student," "as a nurse", "as a doctor", "as a civil servant", "as a local government officer." Where are the retailers, the estate agents, the petrol station attendants, the cleaners, the advertising copywriters, the shop assistants, the entrepreneurs, the car sales staff, the mechanics? No less than 83 per cent of the British workforce are in the private sector. Judging by Question Time audience contributions, you would think that figure was about 10 per cent.
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To be fair Stagecoach are pretty much the exemplary franchise holders. If you were in Arriva Trains Wales (biggest return, massive overcrowding, absolutely no new rolling stock) or Southern (enough said) territory you might think differently.tlg86 said:One that hasn't caught on is the train tax. I'd love to ask Jezza if the cost of my season ticket (£3,130) would come down if the railways were nationalised. I reckon about £2,200 covers the running cost and the tiny profit Stagecoach make on the franchise. The rest goes to the government in premium payments (i.e. tax). But I bet Jezza doesn't know about that.
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The one in Barking was pretty realisticglw said:
I'd love to see a Question Time episode where a garage mechanic said something like "Terrorist suspects? Why don't we just shoot them?"leomckinstry said:The BBC has to do something about their audience selection for QT audiences. There was no way that lot were representative of the British public. Typically, they vociferously cheered unilateral disarmament, when the vast majority of voters support the nuclear deterrent; even Corbyn has had to backtrack on his personal beliefs on that point because of the strength of the public opinion. It never ceases to amaze me how on QT we have endless interventions from students and public sector employees, all decrying the wicked Tories. "As a student," "as a nurse", "as a doctor", "as a civil servant", "as a local government officer." Where are the retailers, the estate agents, the petrol station attendants, the cleaners, the advertising copywriters, the shop assistants, the entrepreneurs, the car sales staff, the mechanics? No less than 83 per cent of the British workforce are in the private sector. Judging by Question Time audience contributions, you would think that figure was about 10 per cent.
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I applauded May when she proposed the policy, then she rowed back on it, and now no-one really knows what the policy is (capped at £????)?ydoethur said:
So out of curiosity, why do you shout your support for Corbyn, who would entrench that unfairness by making all benefits including pensions universal, rather than May who is proposing that people at least partially support themselves from their own resources?
Incidentally, Corbyn will not make university tuition fees free. It seems unlikely that universities - who are not actually Government bodies, please remember, but private charities - would accept the level of funding he can offer. They would instead charge private fees as they do to overseas students.
The supreme irony of Corbynism will be that his policies on education based on class warfare and free at the point of use would hammer our state education system and our university to pieces and leave only the very rich able to afford education at any level. Is that what you want? Really? Because if so I see no reason to modify my views on you.
With regards to the levels that tuition fees are set at, currently the vast majority of people are unlikely to ever pay back their loans, especially as inflation rises so it in effects acts like an additional 9% tax on income for those unfortunate enough to be born after 1995, so it is likely that they could be lowered to back to the £3000 level at a minimal cost. Any cost incurred could be easily offset by things such as means testing the state pension or creating a pensioner health-care levy on pensioners.
In all honesty the politics of the UK seems to be just so far removed from my politics that its come to the point where I want to maximise my economic wellbeing and get out.0 -
Corbyn was allied with the militant tendency in the 1980s. If he was as left wing as Wilson I'd have no issues with him, but that manifesto is deceptively ''moderate'' for Corbyn.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
Agreed. Problem I have is that I am warming to Jezza. His policies are as left wing as er, Harold Wilson's. And he's been by far the best leader in the campaign. McMao and Abbott? Yeah, major negatives. I'd need assurances that centrists would hold senior positions in Cabinet.
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The only Question Time we need?glw said:
I'd love to see a Question Time episode where a garage mechanic said something like "Terrorist suspects? Why don't we just shoot them?"leomckinstry said:The BBC has to do something about their audience selection for QT audiences. There was no way that lot were representative of the British public. Typically, they vociferously cheered unilateral disarmament, when the vast majority of voters support the nuclear deterrent; even Corbyn has had to backtrack on his personal beliefs on that point because of the strength of the public opinion. It never ceases to amaze me how on QT we have endless interventions from students and public sector employees, all decrying the wicked Tories. "As a student," "as a nurse", "as a doctor", "as a civil servant", "as a local government officer." Where are the retailers, the estate agents, the petrol station attendants, the cleaners, the advertising copywriters, the shop assistants, the entrepreneurs, the car sales staff, the mechanics? No less than 83 per cent of the British workforce are in the private sector. Judging by Question Time audience contributions, you would think that figure was about 10 per cent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3tUqRBiMVo&index=52&list=FLg5SdxeHca5JpoZ1j9-RpJg0 -
They are all steeped in the confrontational, agit-prop politics of the 70s and 80s. They are appalling and McDonnell is worst of all. But they are not going to win. The Tories are. The damage a no deal Brexit would inflict on the UK is worse than anything McDonnell could do - primarily because he could not get it through Parliament. I am not voting Labour next week. But there's no way on earth I could vote for a party seriously proposing that walking away deal-less from the EU is anything other than a total and unmitigated catastrophe. A party that thinks that way cannot be trusted.The_Apocalypse said:
The trouble is I really don't trust McDonnell. I'm very ill at ease to find out what he'd do.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
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I suspect it would depend on the size of it. A hostile crowd of 40+ and he would start shouting and screaming very quickly. A crowd of about 5/6 he'd probably enjoy a discussion with. A crowd of say 20-odd and he would start well and then lose it as he realised they were all laughing at him. (To be fair to May, she didn't lose it at those idiots the other night who started laughing at her when she dared to remind them Corbyn's policies were unaffordable merely because they are unaffordable. I can't see Corbyn doing that successfully.)Jonathan said:Must admit it would be a rather fun to see how Corbyn fares in front of a hostile Tory/UKIP crowd.
Anyway, I am off to bed. I hope my posts have given people something to ponder (there's always a first time)!0 -
ATW is let by the Welsh Assembly - so Labour should sort that out themselves. And the issues on GTR are being driven by the government rather than franchise holder. They're just doing what they're told.El_Capitano said:.
To be fair Stagecoach are pretty much the exemplary franchise holders. If you were in Arriva Trains Wales (biggest return, massive overcrowding, absolutely no new rolling stock) or Southern (enough said) territory you might think differently.tlg86 said:One that hasn't caught on is the train tax. I'd love to ask Jezza if the cost of my season ticket (£3,130) would come down if the railways were nationalised. I reckon about £2,200 covers the running cost and the tiny profit Stagecoach make on the franchise. The rest goes to the government in premium payments (i.e. tax). But I bet Jezza doesn't know about that.
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Why has foodbank attendance shot up so much SeanSean_F said:
That's a bit paranoid.bigjohnowls said:
You have completely lost it IMOCyclefree said:
How difficult is it to understand the difference between using your own assets to spend on yourself to look after yourself when you need care (the Tory proposal) and taking your wealth to spend on others (what Labour will do)?The_Apocalypse said:
I'd still rather that the person behind that not be a Marxist.IanB2 said:
Government is coming for a slice of property equity whatever. The Tories have already given that game away.The_Apocalypse said:
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.foxinsoxuk said:
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!The_Apocalypse said:
But they aren't.Gallowgate said:
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
Look at @BJO - one moment howling at the unfairness of the Dementia tax because the Governnment will steal Granny's house and this evening demanding that the wealthy i.e. those with houses be taxed even more than now.
Why is the former "theft" and the latter not?
Oh, I remember now. The latter is being done by Labour and so is OK and the former by Tories and therefore evil.
It's utterly pathetic.
Your hatred of Corbyn clouds everything you post now.
You talk about Morals what kind of Government starves its own people to cut the top rate of tax for its donors
What sort of Government introduces cuts that mean disabled people suffer more misery and in some commit suicide to give sweeties to those who are already well off.
I thought you had some compassion.
Me Me Me society has to end.
The government isn't starving the public. We don't live in Stalin's Russia.
Have you ever been to one?
If not you will not understand how desperate some people in the country are.
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That was in the days when Paul Nuttall was still ghost writing them.IanB2 said:
+1. I am not sure what went wrong; the early period works were so thoughtful.Monksfield said:
This. I used to enjoy Cyclefree's posts but I agree the tenor has changed.bigjohnowls said:
You have completely lost it IMOCyclefree said:
How difficult is it to understand the difference between using your own assets to spend on yourself to look after yourself when you need care (the Tory snipThe_Apocalypse said:
I'd still rather that the person behind that not be a Marxist.IanB2 said:
Government is coming for a slice of property equity whatever. The Tories have already given that game away.The_Apocalypse said:
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.foxinsoxuk said:
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!The_Apocalypse said:
But they aren't.Gallowgate said:
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
It's utterly pathetic.
Your hatred of Corbyn clouds everything you post now.
You talk about Morals what kind of Government starves its own people to cut the top rate of tax for its donors
What sort of Government introduces cuts that mean disabled people suffer more misery and in some commit suicide to give sweeties to those who are already well off.
I thought you had some compassion.
Me Me Me society has to end.0 -
Will Theresa May actually turn up for the Brexit negotiations ?0
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To be fair and taking the policy detail out of it, Corbyn has run a much much better campaign than Weird Ed.AndyJS said:One thing we can all agree on. It'll be a bit embarrassing for Ed Miliband if Corbyn gets a higher share of the vote than he did.
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I am far closer to Henretty than YGkle4 said:Hanretty
Low Seats High Swing
Conservatives 331 379 426 49
Labour 150 195 241 -37
Liberal Democrats 2 7 15 -1
SNP 34 46 55 -10
Plaid Cymru 1 2 4 -1
Greens 0 1 2 0
UKIP 0 1 5 0
Other 1 1 1 0
YouGov are geniuses, or fools. But they aren't herding at least, with most in the Hanretty range instead.0 -
Is "shaft out of existence" a euphemism for having everyone who owns a house stood up against a wall and shot? Or will Labour let it rest at holding Guardian-reading muesli parties in what used to be ordinary people's gardens?TMA1 said:
Ha.Alistair said:Calling it a garden tax is f'ing stupid as a garden doesn't have planning permission to build on so would be low value.
Houses with gardens are being knocked down all over the place and being replaced by flats and multiple houses/ homes. I see this happening every day with my own eyes. Repeat... I am seeing it.
What world are you living in?
People will be shafted by this tax. If they are not to be there is no point to it. It is labours intention to shaft these people and when they have got them by the short and curlies they will shaft them out of existance. This is just one of their mechanisms to squeeze the wealth out of people and give ir to anybody willing to piss it up the wall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfzwIms-M5M0 -
Don't be a c*** all your life.. have a day off.junius said:Will Theresa May actually turn up for the Brexit negotiations ?
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I doubt if debates in themselves change voting intentions much but the main story from this debates is that May did not take part meaning continuing negative coverage. Not helpful in getting the core message across about who is best able to get a good Brexit deal.
More tightening in the polls to be expected. Corbyn for all his many faults is proving once again to be an excellent campaigner. He has proved that in winning two leadership elections and I am finding it hard not to envisage a victory for him in this election.
The message of coalition of chaos and friend of Hamas et al is not being heard.
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Well someone suggested Rudd might be moved to the Foreign Office, so maybe she'll send her again.junius said:Will Theresa May actually turn up for the Brexit negotiations ?
He has, and that's embarrassing for Ed too, and the end result will be very hard on the poor chap.Monksfield said:
To be fair and taking the policy detail out of it, Corbyn has run a much much better campaign than Weird Ed.AndyJS said:One thing we can all agree on. It'll be a bit embarrassing for Ed Miliband if Corbyn gets a higher share of the vote than he did.
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loljunius said:Will Theresa May actually turn up for the Brexit negotiations ?
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No deal is better than a bad deal is nonsensical ...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/miriam-gonz-lez-dur-ntez-brexit-is-back-to-front-it-will-be-a-take-not-give-negotiation-a3553511.html?amp0 -
Well I can't claim to speak for everyone of my generation, and there are likely some individuals like you describe, but in general, at least among my circle, there is a feeling of a loaded deck against us and while we see our tuition fees and rents skyrocket the elderly, that have benefitted massively from house price inflation see their pensions rise by 3% year-by-year even when inflation is near zero.ydoethur said:
I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.0 -
Corbyn and his ilk were belittling Wilson for selling out socialism in the 1970s.The_Apocalypse said:
Corbyn was allied with the militant tendency in the 1980s. If he was as left wing as Wilson I'd have no issues with him, but that manifesto is deceptively ''moderate'' for Corbyn.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
Agreed. Problem I have is that I am warming to Jezza. His policies are as left wing as er, Harold Wilson's. And he's been by far the best leader in the campaign. McMao and Abbott? Yeah, major negatives. I'd need assurances that centrists would hold senior positions in Cabinet.0 -
Those are fair points, and as I said before I'll probably protest vote Green, in the end.SouthamObserver said:
They are all steeped in the confrontational, agit-prop politics of the 70s and 80s. They are appalling and McDonnell is worst of all. But they are not going to win. The Tories are. The damage a no deal Brexit would inflict on the UK is worse than anything McDonnell could do - primarily because he could not get it through Parliament. I am not voting Labour next week. But there's no way on earth I could vote for a party seriously proposing that walking away deal-less from the EU is anything other than a total and unmitigated catastrophe. A party that thinks that way cannot be trusted.The_Apocalypse said:
The trouble is I really don't trust McDonnell. I'm very ill at ease to find out what he'd do.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
I seriously hope that Labour MPs would not entertain any crazy ideas by McDonnell and Corbyn. But I fear the threat of deselection may lead to some being pressured into voting for them if the worst happened.0 -
Well, Corbyn was furious tonight that Rudd was removing the triple lock pension bribe (in fairness I think he was repeatedly asking that, even though its not something the tories would contest, in part to disrupt Rudd's attempt to answer on social care)Chameleon said:
Well I can't claim to speak for everyone of my generation, and there are likely some individuals like you describe, but in general, at least among my circle, there is a feeling of a loaded deck against us and while we see our tuition fees and rents skyrocket the elderly, that have benefitted massively from house price inflation see their pensions rise by 3% year-by-year even when inflation is near zero.ydoethur said:
I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.0 -
I have sympathy with this. And it has me wondering whether May's retreat from even the hint of seeking a bigger contribution from pensioners has played particularly badly with the young?Chameleon said:
Well I can't claim to speak for everyone of my generation, and there are likely some individuals like you describe, but in general, at least among my circle, there is a feeling of a loaded deck against us and while we see our tuition fees and rents skyrocket the elderly, that have benefitted massively from house price inflation see their pensions rise by 3% year-by-year even when inflation is near zero.ydoethur said:
I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.0 -
not in your world but in the real world Corbyn is toxic and the silent majority will dismiss him on June 8chloe said:I doubt if debates in themselves change voting intentions much but the main story from this debates is that May did not take part meaning continuing negative coverage. Not helpful in getting the core message across about who is best able to get a good Brexit deal.
More tightening in the polls to be expected. Corbyn for all his many faults is proving once again to be an excellent campaigner. He has proved that in winning two leadership elections and I am finding it hard not to envisage a victory for him in this election.
The message of coalition of chaos and friend of Hamas et al is not being heard.0 -
Rudd is the only Cabinet minister who YouGov predicts to lose their seat -- although Cairns, Greening and Boris(!!) all have Labour within 10% of them on these projections.0
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It was a fair quip. Take it on the chin, like isam does.SquareRoot said:
Don't be a c*** all your life.. have a day off.junius said:Will Theresa May actually turn up for the Brexit negotiations ?
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Correct but Chameleon could not recognise someone agreeing with the main plank of his philosophy. You could not make it up. Yet he must be in the upper percentile of intelligent people in the country.YBarddCwsc said:
FWIW, the much derided Tory plan on social care did exactly this. It required rich pensioners to pay for their social care.Chameleon said:
For what it is worth, I usually consider myself a fiscal conservative. However the policies of both parties over the past few decades have enriched the baby-boomers beyond belief, and as their demands on the state grow (e.g. healthcare) the burden to fund this has been put on the young, not the old. Until the balance has been fixed we can expect a further rise in radical politics.ydoethur said:
That's an interesting post, highlighting the greed, selfishness and moral cowardice that underpins Labour - we'll take what we want because we are good people and deserve it and you are evil and we hate you all. It always has been fundamental to Labour of course (look up Emmanuel Shinwell if you don't believe me) but I don't think I've ever seen quite such a stunning lack of self-awareness of it, not even in O'Farrell's memoirs (where he admits in the 1980s he was essentially a Fascist).Chameleon said:
Ehh, from my perspective he can make a better future for the next 10 or so years, by the time the debts are called in I can then be living & working in a different country.
Tony Blair persuaded people that actually it wasn't the case and Labour did care about real people with real lives for a while, but Labour (a) failed to actually capitalise on that by a significant rejigging of our economy and welfare system when they had the chance and (b) has forgotten that painfully learned lesson that actually most people really do see them with a clear eye and hate them not because of MSM bias but because loads of them are truly vile human beings.
I have always thought it is no coincidence that the leaders of both the Fascist and Communist parties in this country emerged from Labour. I wonder if we're about to see history repeat itself there?
Firstly what must go on in the minds of the more gullible and secondly can you blame politicians off all strips for their (often derided) approach?0 -
Please do not vote Labour Your vote will contaminate our pool.The_Apocalypse said:
Exactly. Had they not had Corbyn/McDonnell at the helm, I'd be voting Labour at this GE. But I can't vote for someone whose Shadow Chancellor does not even respect democracy FFS.Dadge said:
I think that's unfair. I disagree with the Apo about taxes etc. - there is a non-reckless alternative to Tory austerity economics - but I sympathise that it's hard to vote for a man like Corbyn.valleyboy said:
You do seem to have done a u turn in your political allegiances which would have made May and Thatcher proud.Perhaps you never were labour.The_Apocalypse said:
Get a grip. I voted Labour 2015, and Remain last year. Had Corbyn not been in charge, I would have voted Labour this year as well.Yorkcity said:
Put you cross in the Tory box , do not bullshit us you were going to do anything else.The_Apocalypse said:
No, I just don't want to see that Garden Tax and have a situation where my parents go into negative equity on their mortgage.foxinsoxuk said:
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!The_Apocalypse said:
But they aren't.Gallowgate said:
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views.Dadge said:
:-DSeanT said:Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
Corbyn hasn't been that good really, but the 35% of the audience who support him have definitely done him a favour. The silence of the Tories in the audience speaks volumes. They're cowards - they silently sit on their hands and then they go into the polling station and vote to protect their interests.
It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Do not blame me that the Labour party has put extremists in charge who plan to tax the hilt out of everyone but are not being entirely honest about it.0 -
Current ATW is a Westminster-let franchise, though yes, next one will be Assembly-controlled (and a pig's ear they're making of it too).tlg86 said:ATW is let by the Welsh Assembly - so Labour should sort that out themselves. And the issues on GTR are being driven by the government rather than franchise holder. They're just doing what they're told.
0 -
That Labour's desperation to knock a hole in the Tories' commanding lead has pushed them into positions that defend the few against the many is one of the ironies of this election.kle4 said:
Well, Corbyn was furious tonight that Rudd was removing the triple lock pension bribe (in fairness I think he was repeatedly asking that, even though its not something the tories would contest, in part to disrupt Rudd's attempt to answer on social care)Chameleon said:
Well I can't claim to speak for everyone of my generation, and there are likely some individuals like you describe, but in general, at least among my circle, there is a feeling of a loaded deck against us and while we see our tuition fees and rents skyrocket the elderly, that have benefitted massively from house price inflation see their pensions rise by 3% year-by-year even when inflation is near zero.ydoethur said:
I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.0 -
It wouldn't be minimal cost. It is a graduate tax, of course you are right, but it's actually going to pay off most of the principal over the 30 years of the average graduate earnings. Some may not pay much, but others will pay far more. The real killer, and to this extent I do agree, is the interest on it, which will prove problematic for people repaying it. However, that is a different problem that probably can be adjusted.Chameleon said:
I applauded May when she proposed the policy, then she rowed back on it, and now no-one really knows what the policy is (capped at £????)?
With regards to the levels that tuition fees are set at, currently the vast majority of people are unlikely to ever pay back their loans, especially as inflation rises so it in effects acts like an additional 9% tax on income for those unfortunate enough to be born after 1995, so it is likely that they could be lowered to back to the £3000 level at a minimal cost. Any cost incurred could be easily offset by things such as means testing the state pension or creating a pensioner health-care levy on pensioners.
In all honesty the politics of the UK seems to be just so far removed from my politics that its come to the point where I want to maximise my economic wellbeing and get out.
Also the cost of tuition on most university courses is more than £9,000 (although that also says a lot about the corruption and inefficiency of HE). So even now they are running at a loss. Corbyn has proposed to increase that loss substantially. Guess where cuts fall under such circumstances? Hint: not where they should. The first subjects to die would be Stem, which is very expensive to run.
The policy May espoused is still there. There has been the suggestion of possible watering down further on, but no change to the manifesto. So if you approve of it, you have the option of voting for it.
Anyway, hope you have found that instructive. Good night.0 -
I'm of the 18-24 generation as well.Chameleon said:
Well I can't claim to speak for everyone of my generation, and there are likely some individuals like you describe, but in general, at least among my circle, there is a feeling of a loaded deck against us and while we see our tuition fees and rents skyrocket the elderly, that have benefitted massively from house price inflation see their pensions rise by 3% year-by-year even when inflation is near zero.ydoethur said:
I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.
All of that is true.
But Corbyn would make things even worse for our generation.0 -
It's played badly with me, and people I know. She's seen as being in thrall to the elderly. That being said however I think that lots of youths will have barely noticed it, or the rowback.IanB2 said:
I have sympathy with this. And it has me wondering whether May's retreat from even the hint of seeking a bigger contribution from pensioners has played particularly badly with the young?Chameleon said:
Well I can't claim to speak for everyone of my generation, and there are likely some individuals like you describe, but in general, at least among my circle, there is a feeling of a loaded deck against us and while we see our tuition fees and rents skyrocket the elderly, that have benefitted massively from house price inflation see their pensions rise by 3% year-by-year even when inflation is near zero.ydoethur said:
I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.
0 -
No he wasn't. He opposed their expulsion; that's all. They weren't allied to anyone. They had a a few people who they controlled, but Corbyn wasn't one of them. His politics were and are very different from theirs. Nationalise hundreds of monopolies was their most famous slogan. Corbyn was always a Labour party man, never an entrist. Pretty moderate during the miners' strike.The_Apocalypse said:Corbyn was allied with the militant tendency in the 1980s.
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Ed was Crap (somebody said)Monksfield said:
To be fair and taking the policy detail out of it, Corbyn has run a much much better campaign than Weird Ed.AndyJS said:One thing we can all agree on. It'll be a bit embarrassing for Ed Miliband if Corbyn gets a higher share of the vote than he did.
0 -
It might play out like this.glw said:
I'd love to see a Question Time episode where a garage mechanic said something like "Terrorist suspects? Why don't we just shoot them?"leomckinstry said:The BBC has to do something about their audience selection for QT audiences. There was no way that lot were representative of the British public. Typically, they vociferously cheered unilateral disarmament, when the vast majority of voters support the nuclear deterrent; even Corbyn has had to backtrack on his personal beliefs on that point because of the strength of the public opinion. It never ceases to amaze me how on QT we have endless interventions from students and public sector employees, all decrying the wicked Tories. "As a student," "as a nurse", "as a doctor", "as a civil servant", "as a local government officer." Where are the retailers, the estate agents, the petrol station attendants, the cleaners, the advertising copywriters, the shop assistants, the entrepreneurs, the car sales staff, the mechanics? No less than 83 per cent of the British workforce are in the private sector. Judging by Question Time audience contributions, you would think that figure was about 10 per cent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04clpd7h0b00 -
Try northern rail.El_Capitano said:.
To be fair Stagecoach are pretty much the exemplary franchise holders. If you were in Arriva Trains Wales (biggest return, massive overcrowding, absolutely no new rolling stock) or Southern (enough said) territory you might think differently.tlg86 said:One that hasn't caught on is the train tax. I'd love to ask Jezza if the cost of my season ticket (£3,130) would come down if the railways were nationalised. I reckon about £2,200 covers the running cost and the tiny profit Stagecoach make on the franchise. The rest goes to the government in premium payments (i.e. tax). But I bet Jezza doesn't know about that.
0 -
That's all?!Cyan said:
No he wasn't. He opposed their expulsion; that's all.The_Apocalypse said:Corbyn was allied with the militant tendency in the 1980s.
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Deselection won't happen. Corbynistas do not control the party machine. I can't vote Labour this time. But it's not a binary choice. A vote for the Tories is a vote for a party that is prepared to inflict sustained damage to the UK economy and millions of ordinary Britons.The_Apocalypse said:
Those are fair points, and as I said before I'll probably protest vote Green, in the end.SouthamObserver said:
They are all steeped in the confrontational, agit-prop politics of the 70s and 80s. They are appalling and McDonnell is worst of all. But they are not going to win. The Tories are. The damage a no deal Brexit would inflict on the UK is worse than anything McDonnell could do - primarily because he could not get it through Parliament. I am not voting Labour next week. But there's no way on earth I could vote for a party seriously proposing that walking away deal-less from the EU is anything other than a total and unmitigated catastrophe. A party that thinks that way cannot be trusted.The_Apocalypse said:
The trouble is I really don't trust McDonnell. I'm very ill at ease to find out what he'd do.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
I seriously hope that Labour MPs would not entertain any crazy ideas by McDonnell and Corbyn. But I fear the threat of deselection may lead to some being pressured into voting for them if the worst happened.
0 -
LOL.surbiton said:
Please do not vote Labour Your vote will contaminate our pool.
This is why Labour won't win next week.
Don't know why you're so shocked though. You've been perfectly okay with me for the last two years, and I said the exact same for that time period.
Maybe you just don't like home truths?0 -
Yeah, he's no saviour of the young either, but I know lots of people are eyeing up the free uni and then are looking to emigrate after they finish (Canada is the overwhelming favourite).kle4 said:
Well, Corbyn was furious tonight that Rudd was removing the triple lock pension bribe (in fairness I think he was repeatedly asking that, even though its not something the tories would contest, in part to disrupt Rudd's attempt to answer on social care)Chameleon said:
Well I can't claim to speak for everyone of my generation, and there are likely some individuals like you describe, but in general, at least among my circle, there is a feeling of a loaded deck against us and while we see our tuition fees and rents skyrocket the elderly, that have benefitted massively from house price inflation see their pensions rise by 3% year-by-year even when inflation is near zero.ydoethur said:
I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.0 -
Yes, especially as it is rather shallow...surbiton said:
Please do not vote Labour Your vote will contaminate our pool.The_Apocalypse said:
Exactly. Had they not had Corbyn/McDonnell at the helm, I'd be voting Labour at this GE. But I can't vote for someone whose Shadow Chancellor does not even respect democracy FFS.Dadge said:
I think that's unfair. I disagree with the Apo about taxes etc. - there is a non-reckless alternative to Tory austerity economics - but I sympathise that it's hard to vote for a man like Corbyn.valleyboy said:
You do seem to have done a u turn in your political allegiances which would have made May and Thatcher proud.Perhaps you never were labour.The_Apocalypse said:
Get a grip. I voted Labour 2015, and Remain last year. Had Corbyn not been in charge, I would have voted Labour this year as well.Yorkcity said:
Put you cross in the Tory box , do not bullshit us you were going to do anything else.The_Apocalypse said:
No, I just don't want to see that Garden Tax and have a situation where my parents go into negative equity on their mortgage.foxinsoxuk said:
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!The_Apocalypse said:
But they aren't.Gallowgate said:
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views.Dadge said:
:-D
Corbyn hasn't been that good really, but the 35% of the audience who support him have definitely done him a favour. The silence of the Tories in the audience speaks volumes. They're cowards - they silently sit on their hands and then they go into the polling station and vote to protect their interests.
It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Do not blame me that the Labour party has put extremists in charge who plan to tax the hilt out of everyone but are not being entirely honest about it.0 -
Tonight's message from Lynton Crosby to the people of the UK: No Theresa May is better than a bad Theresa May0
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Ha! Funny and true.bigjohnowls said:Tonight's message from Lynton Crosby to the people of the UK: No Theresa May is better than a bad Theresa May
0 -
Another triumph for BBC impartiality of audiences. They really do excel at that. If they ran a football club no away fans would be let in.0
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He's toxic in my world too but he has not been properly challenged and as far as I can tell he is the one with the momentum (and I don't just mean his Corbyistas) in this election.kjohnw said:
not in your world but in the real world Corbyn is toxic and the silent majority will dismiss him on June 8chloe said:I doubt if debates in themselves change voting intentions much but the main story from this debates is that May did not take part meaning continuing negative coverage. Not helpful in getting the core message across about who is best able to get a good Brexit deal.
More tightening in the polls to be expected. Corbyn for all his many faults is proving once again to be an excellent campaigner. He has proved that in winning two leadership elections and I am finding it hard not to envisage a victory for him in this election.
The message of coalition of chaos and friend of Hamas et al is not being heard.0 -
But lvt, as I understand it, does take into account planning status. Unimproveable land has a lower potential rental value than land that can be improved and so would have a lower taxable value.Ishmael_Z said:
Land value tax explicitly ignores whether land has buildings on it or pp for buildings on it. The term is indeed silly, but so is calling things taxes which are not taxes at all eg bedroom, dementia etc.Alistair said:Calling it a garden tax is f'ing stupid as a garden doesn't have planning permission to build on so would be low value.
0 -
Canada has pretty tough immigration laws. Good luck to them if they think it'll be easy to get in there.Chameleon said:
Yeah, he's no saviour of the young either, but I know lots of people are eyeing up the free uni and then are looking to emigrate after they finish (Canada is the overwhelming favourite).kle4 said:
Well, Corbyn was furious tonight that Rudd was removing the triple lock pension bribe (in fairness I think he was repeatedly asking that, even though its not something the tories would contest, in part to disrupt Rudd's attempt to answer on social care)Chameleon said:
Well I can't claim to speak for everyone of my generation, and there are likely some individuals like you describe, but in general, at least among my circle, there is a feeling of a loaded deck against us and while we see our tuition fees and rents skyrocket the elderly, that have benefitted massively from house price inflation see their pensions rise by 3% year-by-year even when inflation is near zero.ydoethur said:
I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.0 -
Where was Nicola?bigjohnowls said:Tonight's message from Lynton Crosby to the people of the UK: No Theresa May is better than a bad Theresa May
0 -
That's what the polls say, although apart from YouGov they still say good Tory win.chloe said:
He's toxic in my world too but he has not been properly challenged and as far as I can tell he is the one with the momentum (and I don't just mean his Corbyistas) in this election.kjohnw said:
not in your world but in the real world Corbyn is toxic and the silent majority will dismiss him on June 8chloe said:I doubt if debates in themselves change voting intentions much but the main story from this debates is that May did not take part meaning continuing negative coverage. Not helpful in getting the core message across about who is best able to get a good Brexit deal.
More tightening in the polls to be expected. Corbyn for all his many faults is proving once again to be an excellent campaigner. He has proved that in winning two leadership elections and I am finding it hard not to envisage a victory for him in this election.
The message of coalition of chaos and friend of Hamas et al is not being heard.0 -
It's not too bad providing that you have a useful degree, however if they can't get into Canada they'll just switch countries until they find one that they can get in to.The_Apocalypse said:
Canada has pretty tough immigration. Good luck to them if they think it'll be easy to get in there.Chameleon said:
Yeah, he's no saviour of the young either, but I know lots of people are eyeing up the free uni and then are looking to emigrate after they finish (Canada is the overwhelming favourite).kle4 said:
Well, Corbyn was furious tonight that Rudd was removing the triple lock pension bribe (in fairness I think he was repeatedly asking that, even though its not something the tories would contest, in part to disrupt Rudd's attempt to answer on social care)Chameleon said:
Well I can't claim to speak for everyone of my generation, and there are likely some individuals like you describe, but in general, at least among my circle, there is a feeling of a loaded deck against us and while we see our tuition fees and rents skyrocket the elderly, that have benefitted massively from house price inflation see their pensions rise by 3% year-by-year even when inflation is near zero.ydoethur said:
I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.0 -
Doors someone have a link to the NEV from the local elections?0
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I doubt Corbyn's toxicity to the British public. He has an eccentric favourite uncle's appeal whilst May is an unloved and avoided aunt.kjohnw said:
not in your world but in the real world Corbyn is toxic and the silent majority will dismiss him on June 8chloe said:I doubt if debates in themselves change voting intentions much but the main story from this debates is that May did not take part meaning continuing negative coverage. Not helpful in getting the core message across about who is best able to get a good Brexit deal.
More tightening in the polls to be expected. Corbyn for all his many faults is proving once again to be an excellent campaigner. He has proved that in winning two leadership elections and I am finding it hard not to envisage a victory for him in this election.
The message of coalition of chaos and friend of Hamas et al is not being heard.0 -
There is a plan to upgrade the rail line between Hastings and London. Plenty of people in Hastings think this would be good for the area - and that it is more likely to happen if the local MP is in the cabinet and in a position to push it through. If Hastings home owners vote for what they think is most likely to benefit them financially they'll vote for Amber Rudd.Pulpstar said:0 -
Voting Green to evade the more crazy of Labour's policies is certainly a novel approach, I grant you.The_Apocalypse said:
Those are fair points, and as I said before I'll probably protest vote Green, in the end.SouthamObserver said:
They are all steeped in the confrontational, agit-prop politics of the 70s and 80s. They are appalling and McDonnell is worst of all. But they are not going to win. The Tories are. The damage a no deal Brexit would inflict on the UK is worse than anything McDonnell could do - primarily because he could not get it through Parliament. I am not voting Labour next week. But there's no way on earth I could vote for a party seriously proposing that walking away deal-less from the EU is anything other than a total and unmitigated catastrophe. A party that thinks that way cannot be trusted.The_Apocalypse said:
The trouble is I really don't trust McDonnell. I'm very ill at ease to find out what he'd do.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
I seriously hope that Labour MPs would not entertain any crazy ideas by McDonnell and Corbyn. But I fear the threat of deselection may lead to some being pressured into voting for them if the worst happened.0 -
David Cowling on recent polling changes.
http://survation.com/tide-turned-david-cowling/
Some food for thought.0 -
To be honest, the reason I will vote LAB this time is because they are trying to offer something different. A good share will encourage a future Labour campaign to be bold, in a way that recent Labour campaigns haven't and ideally with a leader with wider appeal. Corbyn will not win, for all the reasons espoused by many here, but If he gets 35% plus it will show there is an appetite for something different. Theresa is just more of the same pain, with added foxhunting.The_Apocalypse said:
LOL.surbiton said:
Please do not vote Labour Your vote will contaminate our pool.
This is why Labour won't win next week.
Don't know why you're so shocked though. You've been perfectly okay with me for the last two years, and I said the exact same for that time period.
Maybe you just don't like home truths?0 -
You'll still have to put up with narrower carriages than everyone else; that tunnel south of Sevenoaks killed enough people digging it the first time.hoveite said:
There is a plan to upgrade the rail line between Hastings and London. Plenty of people in Hastings think this would be good for the area - and that it is more likely to happen if the local MP is in the cabinet and in a position to push it through. If Hastings home owners vote for what they think is most likely to benefit them financially they'll vote for Amber Rudd.Pulpstar said:0 -
Yes, I know. But they'll never get into power, and I'd like to vote for a left of centre party at this GE, ideally.IanB2 said:
Voting Green to evade the more crazy of Labour's policies is certainly a novel approach, I grant you.The_Apocalypse said:
Those are fair points, and as I said before I'll probably protest vote Green, in the end.SouthamObserver said:
They are all steeped in the confrontational, agit-prop politics of the 70s and 80s. They are appalling and McDonnell is worst of all. But they are not going to win. The Tories are. The damage a no deal Brexit would inflict on the UK is worse than anything McDonnell could do - primarily because he could not get it through Parliament. I am not voting Labour next week. But there's no way on earth I could vote for a party seriously proposing that walking away deal-less from the EU is anything other than a total and unmitigated catastrophe. A party that thinks that way cannot be trusted.The_Apocalypse said:
The trouble is I really don't trust McDonnell. I'm very ill at ease to find out what he'd do.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
I seriously hope that Labour MPs would not entertain any crazy ideas by McDonnell and Corbyn. But I fear the threat of deselection may lead to some being pressured into voting for them if the worst happened.0 -
For a variety of reasons, I find this election confusing.dr_spyn said:David Cowling on recent polling changes.
http://survation.com/tide-turned-david-cowling/
Some food for thought.
Him and me both.0 -
There are NEV figures hereAlistair said:Doors someone have a link to the NEV from the local elections?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_local_elections,_20170 -
True but the media coverage is constantly negative for Tories and May, that has to cut through to voting?kle4 said:
That's what the polls say, although apart from YouGov they still say good Tory win.chloe said:
He's toxic in my world too but he has not been properly challenged and as far as I can tell he is the one with the momentum (and I don't just mean his Corbyistas) in this election.kjohnw said:
not in your world but in the real world Corbyn is toxic and the silent majority will dismiss him on June 8chloe said:I doubt if debates in themselves change voting intentions much but the main story from this debates is that May did not take part meaning continuing negative coverage. Not helpful in getting the core message across about who is best able to get a good Brexit deal.
More tightening in the polls to be expected. Corbyn for all his many faults is proving once again to be an excellent campaigner. He has proved that in winning two leadership elections and I am finding it hard not to envisage a victory for him in this election.
The message of coalition of chaos and friend of Hamas et al is not being heard.0 -
The LibDems under Farron are clearly left of centre, without Labour's crazy bits. Indeed in some areas, such as their tax policy, they are more redistributive (which used to be the key left/right differentiator) than Labour.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I know. But they'll never get into power, and I'd like to vote for a left of centre party at this GE, ideally.IanB2 said:
Voting Green to evade the more crazy of Labour's policies is certainly a novel approach, I grant you.The_Apocalypse said:
Those are fair points, and as I said before I'll probably protest vote Green, in the end.SouthamObserver said:
They are all steeped in the confrontational, agit-prop politics of the 70s and 80s. They are appalling and McDonnell is worst of all. But they are not going to win. The Tories are. The damage a no deal Brexit would inflict on the UK is worse than anything McDonnell could do - primarily because he could not get it through Parliament. I am not voting Labour next week. But there's no way on earth I could vote for a party seriously proposing that walking away deal-less from the EU is anything other than a total and unmitigated catastrophe. A party that thinks that way cannot be trusted.The_Apocalypse said:
The trouble is I really don't trust McDonnell. I'm very ill at ease to find out what he'd do.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
I seriously hope that Labour MPs would not entertain any crazy ideas by McDonnell and Corbyn. But I fear the threat of deselection may lead to some being pressured into voting for them if the worst happened.0 -
In his conclusion he raises the possibility of low turnout because some voters feel this might be an unnecessary election. If turnout is low who does that favor?dr_spyn said:David Cowling on recent polling changes.
http://survation.com/tide-turned-david-cowling/
Some food for thought.0 -
Tony Benn and Eric Heffer opposed Militant's expulsion too. Benn, Heffer and Corbyn were in the Campaign Group. They opposed the expulsion because they thought they might be next, probably, or at least they feared a takeover by the right. Militant wasn't a faction of the party: they were their own party, and everyone in Labour knew it. Most people despised them, even on the left of the party, even many who opposed their expulsion. I wouldn't call the relationship with the CG and people like Corbyn an "alliance". Corbyn has always been a genuine guy. He's never been like Derek Hatton.kle4 said:
That's all?!Cyan said:
No he wasn't. He opposed their expulsion; that's all.The_Apocalypse said:Corbyn was allied with the militant tendency in the 1980s.
0 -
But what if it has had an effect, which we have seen in the narrowing Tory lead. The question is will that continue? Hell, Lab went up even after the first few difficult days they had over the bank holiday period.chloe said:
True but the media coverage is constantly negative for Tories and May, that has to cut through to voting?kle4 said:
That's what the polls say, although apart from YouGov they still say good Tory win.chloe said:
He's toxic in my world too but he has not been properly challenged and as far as I can tell he is the one with the momentum (and I don't just mean his Corbyistas) in this election.kjohnw said:
not in your world but in the real world Corbyn is toxic and the silent majority will dismiss him on June 8chloe said:I doubt if debates in themselves change voting intentions much but the main story from this debates is that May did not take part meaning continuing negative coverage. Not helpful in getting the core message across about who is best able to get a good Brexit deal.
More tightening in the polls to be expected. Corbyn for all his many faults is proving once again to be an excellent campaigner. He has proved that in winning two leadership elections and I am finding it hard not to envisage a victory for him in this election.
The message of coalition of chaos and friend of Hamas et al is not being heard.0 -
I hope you're right re future campaigns. We need something different, and May is certainly not the answer - indeed she could be our worst PM in decades if she carries on the way she has.Monksfield said:
To be honest, the reason I will vote LAB this time is because they are trying to offer something different. A good share will encourage a future Labour campaign to be bold, in a way that recent Labour campaigns haven't and ideally with a leader with wider appeal. Corbyn will not win, for all the reasons espoused by many here, but If he gets 35% plus it will show there is an appetite for something different. Theresa is just more of the same pain, with added foxhunting.The_Apocalypse said:
LOL.surbiton said:
Please do not vote Labour Your vote will contaminate our pool.
This is why Labour won't win next week.
Don't know why you're so shocked though. You've been perfectly okay with me for the last two years, and I said the exact same for that time period.
Maybe you just don't like home truths?
A competent left of centre alternative is what this country needs. I hope in the summer Labour members go for that.
Thank you for not acting like I'm the worse person in the world because of my fears regarding Corbyn/McDonnell.0 -
EccentricMonikerDiCanio said:
I doubt Corbyn's toxicity to the British public. He has an eccentric favourite uncle's appeal whilst May is an unloved and avoided aunt.kjohnw said:
not in your world but in the real world Corbyn is toxic and the silent majority will dismiss him on June 8chloe said:I doubt if debates in themselves change voting intentions much but the main story from this debates is that May did not take part meaning continuing negative coverage. Not helpful in getting the core message across about who is best able to get a good Brexit deal.
More tightening in the polls to be expected. Corbyn for all his many faults is proving once again to be an excellent campaigner. He has proved that in winning two leadership elections and I am finding it hard not to envisage a victory for him in this election.
The message of coalition of chaos and friend of Hamas et al is not being heard.
To be fair Ed was up against Ukip and a good Tory leader.kle4 said:
Well someone suggested Rudd might be moved to the Foreign Office, so maybe she'll send her again.junius said:Will Theresa May actually turn up for the Brexit negotiations ?
He has, and that's embarrassing for Ed too, and the end result will be very hard on the poor chap.Monksfield said:
To be fair and taking the policy detail out of it, Corbyn has run a much much better campaign than Weird Ed.AndyJS said:One thing we can all agree on. It'll be a bit embarrassing for Ed Miliband if Corbyn gets a higher share of the vote than he did.
0 -
@britainelects: Westminster voting intention:
CON: 42% (-1)
LAB: 39% (+3)
LDEM: 7% (-2)
UKIP: 4% (-)
(via @YouGov / 30 - 31 May)0 -
Canada is also a rare place with a property bubble worse than oursChameleon said:
It's not too bad providing that you have a useful degree, however if they can't get into Canada they'll just switch countries until they find one that they can get in to.The_Apocalypse said:
Canada has pretty tough immigration. Good luck to them if they think it'll be easy to get in there.Chameleon said:
Yeah, he's no saviour of the young either, but I know lots of people are eyeing up the free uni and then are looking to emigrate after they finish (Canada is the overwhelming favourite).kle4 said:
Well, Corbyn was furious tonight that Rudd was removing the triple lock pension bribe (in fairness I think he was repeatedly asking that, even though its not something the tories would contest, in part to disrupt Rudd's attempt to answer on social care)Chameleon said:
Well I can't claim to speak for everyone of my generation, and there are likely some individuals like you describe, but in general, at least among my circle, there is a feeling of a loaded deck against us and while we see our tuition fees and rents skyrocket the elderly, that have benefitted massively from house price inflation see their pensions rise by 3% year-by-year even when inflation is near zero.ydoethur said:
I teach them. And have done now for 11 years in schools and universities, including inner city Bristol and the leafy suburbs of Gloucestershire to the mid-point of Cannock.
They would. They really would. Greed is not predicated on unfairness. After all by that logic rich businessmen would stop earning when they'd had enough. Yet they don't. Don't look at Trump because he isn't exactly nice to look at (!) but the key difference between him and a socialist is that he has money and they don't. Their ultimate aims are very similar.0 -
The LDs are WAY too Europhile for me. I was originally going to vote for them, but they've put me off gradually over the course of this campaign.IanB2 said:
The LibDems under Farron are clearly left of centre, without Labour's crazy bits. Indeed in some areas, such as their tax policy, they are more redistributive (which used to be the key left/right differentiator) than Labour.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I know. But they'll never get into power, and I'd like to vote for a left of centre party at this GE, ideally.IanB2 said:
Voting Green to evade the more crazy of Labour's policies is certainly a novel approach, I grant you.The_Apocalypse said:
Those are fair points, and as I said before I'll probably protest vote Green, in the end.SouthamObserver said:
They are all steeped in the confrontational, agit-prop politics of the 70s and 80s. They are appalling and McDonnell is worst of all. But they are not going to win. The Tories are. The damage a no deal Brexit would inflict on the UK is worse than anything McDonnell could do - primarily because he could not get it through Parliament. I am not voting Labour next week. But there's no way on earth I could vote for a party seriously proposing that walking away deal-less from the EU is anything other than a total and unmitigated catastrophe. A party that thinks that way cannot be trusted.The_Apocalypse said:
The trouble is I really don't trust McDonnell. I'm very ill at ease to find out what he'd do.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
I seriously hope that Labour MPs would not entertain any crazy ideas by McDonnell and Corbyn. But I fear the threat of deselection may lead to some being pressured into voting for them if the worst happened.0 -
Unfortunately their leader is the least liberal of them all!IanB2 said:
The LibDems under Farron are clearly left of centre, without Labour's crazy bits. Indeed in some areas, such as their tax policy, they are more redistributive (which used to be the key left/right differentiator) than Labour.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I know. But they'll never get into power, and I'd like to vote for a left of centre party at this GE, ideally.IanB2 said:
Voting Green to evade the more crazy of Labour's policies is certainly a novel approach, I grant you.The_Apocalypse said:
Those are fair points, and as I said before I'll probably protest vote Green, in the end.SouthamObserver said:
They are all steeped in the confrontational, agit-prop politics of the 70s and 80s. They are appalling and McDonnell is worst of all. But they are not going to win. The Tories are. The damage a no deal Brexit would inflict on the UK is worse than anything McDonnell could do - primarily because he could not get it through Parliament. I am not voting Labour next week. But there's no way on earth I could vote for a party seriously proposing that walking away deal-less from the EU is anything other than a total and unmitigated catastrophe. A party that thinks that way cannot be trusted.The_Apocalypse said:
The trouble is I really don't trust McDonnell. I'm very ill at ease to find out what he'd do.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
I seriously hope that Labour MPs would not entertain any crazy ideas by McDonnell and Corbyn. But I fear the threat of deselection may lead to some being pressured into voting for them if the worst happened.0 -
39%Scott_P said:@britainelects: Westminster voting intention:
CON: 42% (-1)
LAB: 39% (+3)
LDEM: 7% (-2)
UKIP: 4% (-)
(via @YouGov / 30 - 31 May)
0 -
So, will Labour close down food banks and pretend - in that Stalinist way - "There is no poverty in our Socialist Utopia?"bigjohnowls said:
Why has foodbank attendance shot up so much Sean
Have you ever been to one?
If not you will not understand how desperate some people in the country are.
And send the food to landfill, like they did under the last Labour Govt.?0 -
Closest yet, LDs still stucka round 7-8.Scott_P said:@britainelects: Westminster voting intention:
CON: 42% (-1)
LAB: 39% (+3)
LDEM: 7% (-2)
UKIP: 4% (-)
(via @YouGov / 30 - 31 May)
It is impressive that rain or shine, good day, great day or bad day, Labour don't dip at all. Getting close to 2005 numbers? I know the LDs are well down, but really?0 -
Another good thing, if the majority is smaller than originally anticipated, they won't risk the fox hunting vote. If a Tory government tried it and failed, it would be consigned to history alongside cock fighting, bull-baiting and the rest.Monksfield said:
To be honest, the reason I will vote LAB this time is because they are trying to offer something different. A good share will encourage a future Labour campaign to be bold, in a way that recent Labour campaigns haven't and ideally with a leader with wider appeal. Corbyn will not win, for all the reasons espoused by many here, but If he gets 35% plus it will show there is an appetite for something different. Theresa is just more of the same pain, with added foxhunting.The_Apocalypse said:
LOL.surbiton said:
Please do not vote Labour Your vote will contaminate our pool.
This is why Labour won't win next week.
Don't know why you're so shocked though. You've been perfectly okay with me for the last two years, and I said the exact same for that time period.
Maybe you just don't like home truths?0 -
Very interesting you're a centrist and a bit of a eurosceptic, Apocalypse. I must confess I thought you were a very solid left-winger and very pro-EU.The_Apocalypse said:
The LDs are WAY too Europhile for me. I was originally going to vote for them, but they've put me off gradually over the course of this campaign.IanB2 said:
The LibDems under Farron are clearly left of centre, without Labour's crazy bits. Indeed in some areas, such as their tax policy, they are more redistributive (which used to be the key left/right differentiator) than Labour.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I know. But they'll never get into power, and I'd like to vote for a left of centre party at this GE, ideally.IanB2 said:
Voting Green to evade the more crazy of Labour's policies is certainly a novel approach, I grant you.The_Apocalypse said:
Those are fair points, and as I said before I'll probably protest vote Green, in the end.SouthamObserver said:
They are all steeped in the confrontational, agit-prop politics of the 70s and 80s. They are appalling and McDonnell is worst of all. But they are not going to win. The Tories are. The damage a no deal Brexit would inflict on the UK is worse than anything McDonnell could do - primarily because he could not get it through Parliament. I am not voting Labour next week. But there's no way on earth I could vote for a party seriously proposing that walking away deal-less from the EU is anything other than a total and unmitigated catastrophe. A party that thinks that way cannot be trusted.The_Apocalypse said:
The trouble is I really don't trust McDonnell. I'm very ill at ease to find out what he'd do.bobajobPB said:Miss Aco
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
I seriously hope that Labour MPs would not entertain any crazy ideas by McDonnell and Corbyn. But I fear the threat of deselection may lead to some being pressured into voting for them if the worst happened.
I do hope we can do something to persuade you to lend us your vote this once over the next week or so.0
