Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
Corbyn hasn't been that good really, but the 35% of the audience who support him have definitely done him a favour. The silence of the Tories in the audience speaks volumes. They're cowards - they silently sit on their hands and then they go into the polling station and vote to protect their interests.
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
No, I just don't want to see that Garden Tax and have a situation where my parents go into negative equity on their mortgage.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Put you cross in the Tory box , do not bullshit us you were going to do anything else.
Get a grip. I voted Labour 2015, and Remain last year. Had Corbyn not been in charge, I would have voted Labour this year as well.
Do not blame me that the Labour party has put extremists in charge who plan to tax the hilt out of everyone but are not being entirely honest about it.
You do seem to have done a u turn in your political allegiances which would have made May and Thatcher proud.Perhaps you never were labour.
I thought Rudd did a very good job under extremely difficult circumstances both political and now just revealed personal ones as well.
Yes I agree she looks more at ease than May .
While I think May should have agreed to go (although having been so firm against it, and Corbyn deciding at the last minute to do so, changing her mind would have been unhelpful to her that late in the day), I think Rudd handled it better than she could have.
Was Tim right about the Manchester bomber being reported five times? What does that actually mean? And if so, why wasn't anything done?
There were concerns raised about the individual on five separate occasions, including once by his own Imman. The problem is that there are probably thousands of people who are reported each year, such as SeanT's own dry cleaners. Most of the time it's nothing. And often people fall through the net (nothing suspicious in his mobile phone call patterns, nothing to see here, move on).
We're getting better at tracking those we need to monitor. And for every Manchester, there are five guys who's plans are disrupted. But this is a multi-decade effort, and we're (really) only ten years in.
Modestly more resources, targeted modestly better, combined with better infiltration, and - like with the IRA and similar movements - we'll reduce Islamic terrorism to a minor, but chronic, condition. Maybe that's not enough, but that is the direction we're heading in.
Except this wasn't a spur of the moment, kitchen knife job. The scary part is that Abedi seems to have built himself a bomb which raises questions of why his web and credit card use were not correlated. Or even whether they were but he was not expected to strike just yet.
EXCL by @ByLynnDavidson: Amber Rudd's father died on Monday but it didn't stop her taking part in tonight's debate: https://t.co/ckDllvnAgZ May 31, 2017
Isn't it for Amber Rudd to decide what she does or doesn't want to do?
Theresa May could have insisted that Amber Rudd be given time to grieve, but she didn't.
What earthly business is it of yours, you nasty little man?
It is my business, I'm a voter and it reflects poorly on cowardly Theresa May.
Has anything actually happened to make us think this won't be: Tory Maj Corbyn doing well enough to survive UKIP wipeout Lib Dem flop
?
Still seems about right, unless YouGov are the only people smart enough to see the truth that all pollsters and elections to date have missed.
I just somehow think Yougov have done it to give the headline writers what they wanted. There is no such thing as inviolable excellence and credibility any more - we all have to earn a crust.
You also think that the Jo Cox murder was a false flag operation, so this latest conspiracy theory of yours is hardly surprising.
1. Corbyn, 2= Lucas and Farron, 4= Robertson and Rudd, 6. Wood, 7. Nuttall. Lucas is a good performer but slipped into stereotype too often. Robertson didn't connect as much as I expected him to. Rudd was robotically effective but unappealing. Format didn't suit Nuttall at all.
Ehh, from my perspective he can make a better future for the next 10 or so years, by the time the debts are called in I can then be living & working in a different country.
That's an interesting post, highlighting the greed, selfishness and moral cowardice that underpins Labour - we'll take what we want because we are good people and deserve it and you are evil and we hate you all. It always has been fundamental to Labour of course (look up Emmanuel Shinwell if you don't believe me) but I don't think I've ever seen quite such a stunning lack of self-awareness of it, not even in O'Farrell's memoirs (where he admits in the 1980s he was essentially a Fascist).
Tony Blair persuaded people that actually it wasn't the case and Labour did care about real people with real lives for a while, but Labour (a) failed to actually capitalise on that by a significant rejigging of our economy and welfare system when they had the chance and (b) has forgotten that painfully learned lesson that actually most people really do see them with a clear eye and hate them not because of MSM bias but because loads of them are truly vile human beings.
I have always thought it is no coincidence that the leaders of both the Fascist and Communist parties in this country emerged from Labour. I wonder if we're about to see history repeat itself there?
EXCL by @ByLynnDavidson: Amber Rudd's father died on Monday but it didn't stop her taking part in tonight's debate: https://t.co/ckDllvnAgZ May 31, 2017
Isn't it for Amber Rudd to decide what she does or doesn't want to do?
Theresa May could have insisted that Amber Rudd be given time to grieve, but she didn't.
What earthly business is it of yours, you nasty little man?
It is my business, I'm a voter and it reflects poorly on cowardly Theresa May.
EXCL by @ByLynnDavidson: Amber Rudd's father died on Monday but it didn't stop her taking part in tonight's debate: https://t.co/ckDllvnAgZ May 31, 2017
Isn't it for Amber Rudd to decide what she does or doesn't want to do?
Theresa May could have insisted that Amber Rudd be given time to grieve, but she didn't.
Maybe Amber Rudd, as a grown woman, decided for herself that she was willing and able to appear in this debate?
The question is did she decide for herself or did her boss make the decision for her?
379-195. Would work for me. Large, but not huge majority, so can be held to account, hopefully low enough to get Corbyn out.
The seat predictor on there just seems so out of whack. LDs likely to gain Bristol West, one of only two the model suggests better than 50% chance of a gain? Everything I have heard coming out of Bristol is that they love Corbyn and if they are surging anyway, it is there.
It does predict Tory tacticals not great in Scotland, preventing LD gains from SNP. I hope that is not true.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
Corbyn hasn't been that good really, but the 35% of the audience who support him have definitely done him a favour. The silence of the Tories in the audience speaks volumes. They're cowards - they silently sit on their hands and then they go into the polling station and vote to protect their interests.
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
No, I just don't want to see that Garden Tax and have a situation where my parents go into negative equity on their mortgage.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Put you cross in the Tory box , do not bullshit us you were going to do anything else.
Get a grip. I voted Labour 2015, and Remain last year. Had Corbyn not been in charge, I would have voted Labour this year as well.
Do not blame me that the Labour party has put extremists in charge who plan to tax the hilt out of everyone but are not being entirely honest about it.
You do seem to have done a u turn in your political allegiances which would have made May and Thatcher proud.Perhaps you never were labour.
Yes, I was so 'never' Labour that I voted for them the first time I could ever vote in a GE.
You act as if I've become a kind of advocate for Conservatism when really all I've done is be critical of Corbyn and his acolytes - as I have been for the last two years on the site now.
I've spent most of the last few weeks being very critical of May.
But I know that the Corbynistas have a 'with us or without us' attitude and those who don't worship Corbyn are ''bad'' people.
A couple of months ago, PBTories were bemoaning "the lack of a strong opposition" and saying how terrible it was that we were becoming a "one-party state".
How come, now that it looks like there might be a strong opposition, all that talk has disappeared??
It's actually an idea worth looking at, if done in the right way (which Labour won't, of course), particularly if at least some of the proceeds are used to reduce undesirable taxation elsewhere.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
Corbyn hasn't been that good really, but the 35% of the audience who support him have definitely done him a favour. The silence of the Tories in the audience speaks volumes. They're cowards - they silently sit on their hands and then they go into the polling station and vote to protect their interests.
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
No, I just don't want to see that Garden Tax and have a situation where my parents go into negative equity on their mortgage.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Put you cross in the Tory box , do not bullshit us you were going to do anything else.
Nice bit of canvassing there. Is that how you work for Labour when hitting the door-knockers?
To the hard-left, anyone with a house is a rockfeller whose deserves to be sucked dry by the government and left homeless.
Look you don't know the conversation Rudd and May had. She could have told May she wants to keep working and doing this is, if that's the case May isn't going to go against that.
It's actually an idea worth looking at, if done in the right way (which Labour won't, of course), particularly if at least some of the proceeds are used to reduce undesirable taxation elsewhere.
A couple of months ago, PBTories were bemoaning "the lack of a strong opposition" and saying how terrible it was that we were becoming a "one-party state".
How come, now that it looks like there might be a strong opposition, all that talk has disappeared??
It doesn't look like there will be a strong opposition.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
Corbyn hasn't been that good really, but the 35% of the audience who support him have definitely done him a favour. The silence of the Tories in the audience speaks volumes. They're cowards - they silently sit on their hands and then they go into the polling station and vote to protect their interests.
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
No, I just don't want to see that Garden Tax and have a situation where my parents go into negative equity on their mortgage.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Put you cross in the Tory box , do not bullshit us you were going to do anything else.
Get a grip. I voted Labour 2015, and Remain last year. Had Corbyn not been in charge, I would have voted Labour this year as well.
Do not blame me that the Labour party has put extremists in charge who plan to tax the hilt out of everyone but are not being entirely honest about it.
You do seem to have done a u turn in your political allegiances which would have made May and Thatcher proud.Perhaps you never were labour.
I think that's unfair. I disagree with the Apo about taxes etc. - there is a non-reckless alternative to Tory austerity economics - but I sympathise that it's hard to vote for a man like Corbyn.
How difficult is it to understand the difference between using your own assets to spend on yourself to look after yourself when you need care (the Tory proposal) and taking your wealth to spend on others (what Labour will do)?
Well, that is what "redistribution" means, and socialist parties believe in redistribution, and Corbyn is a socialist. I'm not sure why that should be a surprise to anyone.
Our revered national institution the NHS does that, every day.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
Corbyn hasn't been that good really, but the 35% of the audience who support him have definitely done him a favour. The silence of the Tories in the audience speaks volumes. They're cowards - they silently sit on their hands and then they go into the polling station and vote to protect their interests.
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
No, I just don't want to see that Garden Tax and have a situation where my parents go into negative equity on their mortgage.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Put you cross in the Tory box , do not bullshit us you were going to do anything else.
Nice bit of canvassing there. Is that how you work for Labour when hitting the door-knockers?
To the hard-left, anyone with a house is a rockfeller whose deserves to be sucked dry by the government and left homeless.
Moronic.
No, that's you implying I was always going to vote Tory LOL.
But I do know that Corbyn supporters after seeing that and still voting for him, do so without a care in the world for other people and how his policies will impact them.
It's actually an idea worth looking at, if done in the right way (which Labour won't, of course), particularly if at least some of the proceeds are used to reduce undesirable taxation elsewhere.
Land value tax.. jeez about as toxic as Chernobyl
I've seen it provoke a reaction here, but not many places else and no mentions IRL yet, so if it is toxic, the Tories haven't leaped on it yet.
Amber has pretty much earned her choice of gigs in the Jun 9 reshuffle, I'd say (and probably shortened her odds in Next Leader/Next Chancellor markets).
Corbyn hasn't made mistakes... any roll he's on won't have been stopped. And that was more important tonight than on Woman's Hour.
Farron's done himself no harm (though not massively visible).. if there is a Tory wobble he may have saved/put a handful of seats in play. Similar story for Lucas. Though both laid good punches on May for bottling.
Robertson's looked statesmanlike, but irrelevant for 90pc of the electorate. (And Wood an even smaller player, though personally likeable).
Nuttall reminds me of Nick Griffin... puts on a suit and has learned a few long words, but is never going to give his party the veneer of respectability Farage seemed to manage.
I'm left struggling to work out the impact on May. She's massively weakened (within and outside her party) by the no-show, especially after the master-stroke by Corbyn in turning up. But her performance earlier defending that decision makes me think she'd have come across as the non-human in the room and performed way worse than Rudd.
Finally.. Rudd's closing statement and Damian Green in the spin-room feel like pre-prepared lines to take and rather unauthentic. I don't think the Coalition of Chaos lines will stick after 90 minutes where there were no massive screw-ups.
You're probably right that May would have lost whether present or absent. Not a great position for our Supreme Commander to have got herself into, nevertheless.
Their collective weakness - and the one area where Tim was the best of a poor field - was their humourlessness. Tim can at least raise a laugh, and that was the edge that Farage had over Nuttall.
The closing statements are always pre-prepared and difficult to pull off as if they are natural. Corbyn and Tim did well there, and Lucas's although obvious a script was delivered well.
I thought Farron did quite well. Indeed I like him the more I see him. Oh god, I'm turning into a Lib Dem.
Don't worry. Open a £50 bottle of red and you will recover.
That was pretty crap, weak presenter, too many participants and an audience akin to Man Utd going to Anfield with no away fans. No real winner but Corbyn for sure has justified the faith MacLuskey showed in him. Individual musings.
Rudd - Started well away from home on the economy, missed her chance on the security. Corbyn - Gets his slogans across easily, most people though are no fools. Farron - The Liberal who isn't a Liberal, Mr State control Nuttall - Scouse is not good for a party leader Lucas - Talks drivel but very well. Robertson - Rides the tide of free subsidy from your neighbour with joy but not much gratitude. Wood - What was the point
May probably did right, she wouldn't have enjoyed the format and certainly wouldn't have dominated.
1. Corbyn, 2= Lucas and Farron, 4= Robertson and Rudd, 6. Wood, 7. Nuttall. Lucas is a good performer but slipped into stereotype too often. Robertson didn't connect as much as I expected him to. Rudd was robotically effective but unappealing. Format didn't suit Nuttall at all.
I thought Rudd did OK. I'd much rather she was prospective PM than the execrable Theresa.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
Corbyn hasn't been that good really, but the 35% of the audience who support him have definitely done him a favour. The silence of the Tories in the audience speaks volumes. They're cowards - they silently sit on their hands and then they go into the polling station and vote to protect their interests.
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
No, I just don't want to see that Garden Tax and have a situation where my parents go into negative equity on their mortgage.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Put you cross in the Tory box , do not bullshit us you were going to do anything else.
Get a grip. I voted Labour 2015, and Remain last year. Had Corbyn not been in charge, I would have voted Labour this year as well.
Do not blame me that the Labour party has put extremists in charge who plan to tax the hilt out of everyone but are not being entirely honest about it.
You do seem to have done a u turn in your political allegiances which would have made May and Thatcher proud.Perhaps you never were labour.
I think that's unfair. I disagree with the Apo about taxes etc. - there is a non-reckless alternative to Tory austerity economics - but I sympathise that it's hard to vote for a man like Corbyn.
Exactly. Had they not had Corbyn/McDonnell at the helm, I'd be voting Labour at this GE. But I can't vote for someone whose Shadow Chancellor does not even respect democracy FFS.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Government is coming for a slice of property equity whatever. The Tories have already given that game away.
I'd still rather that the person behind that not be a Marxist.
How difficult is it to understand the difference between using your own assets to spend on yourself to look after yourself when you need care (the Tory proposal) and taking your wealth to spend on others (what Labour will do)?
Look at @BJO - one moment howling at the unfairness of the Dementia tax because the Governnment will steal Granny's house and this evening demanding that the wealthy i.e. those with houses be taxed even more than now.
Why is the former "theft" and the latter not?
Oh, I remember now. The latter is being done by Labour and so is OK and the former by Tories and therefore evil.
It's utterly pathetic.
You have completely lost it IMO
Your hatred of Corbyn clouds everything you post now.
You talk about Morals what kind of Government starves its own people to cut the top rate of tax for its donors
What sort of Government introduces cuts that mean disabled people suffer more misery and in some commit suicide to give sweeties to those who are already well off.
Jezza meeting his fans outside. This is feeling a little bit like 1992.
I'd settle for only a 1992-size majority, tbh.
Remember the Labour vote share in 1992 was super-efficient. UNS would have given Major a majority of 77.
It seems unlikely it will be that efficient this time, although ICM dropped a hint they may take several seats by small margins.
YouGov is also suggesting a highly efficient Labour vote this time around.
Whilst I doubt Labour will only be 3-4% behind in the popular vote like YG is suggesting, I do think their swing model looks plausible - the big Tory swings being concentrated most in safe Labour seats and in safe Tory seats, which thus means they essentially "waste" a lot of their extra votes.
Looking at the YouGov Seat Model, it seems to me that it's possible that even a 10% lead for the Tories (which is more likely than not, I think) would only get them a wafer-thin majority.
Yes, I was so 'never' Labour that I voted for them the first time I could ever vote in a GE.
You act as if I've become a kind of advocate for Conservatism when really all I've done is be critical of Corbyn and his acolytes - as I have been for the last two years on the site now.
I've spent most of the last few weeks being very critical of May.
But I know that the Corbynistas have a 'with us or without us' attitude and those who don't worship Corbyn are ''bad'' people.
If you were a secret Tory all along you did a bloody good job of hiding it. You certainly had me fooled.
It's actually an idea worth looking at, if done in the right way (which Labour won't, of course), particularly if at least some of the proceeds are used to reduce undesirable taxation elsewhere.
Land value tax.. jeez about as toxic as Chernobyl
They seem to manage alright in France with a property tax, which isn't so far away. Indeed the combination of Council Tax and Business Rates is a surrogate for a land tax, of sorts.
Look you don't know the conversation Rudd and May had. She could have told May she wants to keep working and doing this is, if that's the case May isn't going to go against that.
EXCL by @ByLynnDavidson: Amber Rudd's father died on Monday but it didn't stop her taking part in tonight's debate: https://t.co/ckDllvnAgZ May 31, 2017
Isn't it for Amber Rudd to decide what she does or doesn't want to do?
Theresa May could have insisted that Amber Rudd be given time to grieve, but she didn't.
Maybe Amber Rudd, as a grown woman, decided for herself that she was willing and able to appear in this debate?
The question is did she decide for herself or did her boss make the decision for her?
And that is absolutely nothing to do with you or anybody other than Rudd and May. Of all the vile ways to try and score political points...talk about scraping the barrel.
Ehh, from my perspective he can make a better future for the next 10 or so years, by the time the debts are called in I can then be living & working in a different country.
That's an interesting post, highlighting the greed, selfishness and moral cowardice that underpins Labour - we'll take what we want because we are good people and deserve it and you are evil and we hate you all. It always has been fundamental to Labour of course (look up Emmanuel Shinwell if you don't believe me) but I don't think I've ever seen quite such a stunning lack of self-awareness of it, not even in O'Farrell's memoirs (where he admits in the 1980s he was essentially a Fascist).
Tony Blair persuaded people that actually it wasn't the case and Labour did care about real people with real lives for a while, but Labour (a) failed to actually capitalise on that by a significant rejigging of our economy and welfare system when they had the chance and (b) has forgotten that painfully learned lesson that actually most people really do see them with a clear eye and hate them not because of MSM bias but because loads of them are truly vile human beings.
I have always thought it is no coincidence that the leaders of both the Fascist and Communist parties in this country emerged from Labour. I wonder if we're about to see history repeat itself there?
For what it is worth, I usually consider myself a fiscal conservative. However the policies of both parties over the past few decades have enriched the baby-boomers beyond belief, and as their demands on the state grow (e.g. healthcare) the burden to fund this has been put on the young, not the old. Until the balance has been fixed we can expect a further rise in radical politics.
Look you don't know the conversation Rudd and May had. She could have told May she wants to keep working and doing this is, if that's the case May isn't going to go against that.
May had the perfect excuse to step in and relieve Rudd, so by looking compassionate and decisive. She's useless.
A couple of months ago, PBTories were bemoaning "the lack of a strong opposition" and saying how terrible it was that we were becoming a "one-party state".
How come, now that it looks like there might be a strong opposition, all that talk has disappeared??
Because Corbyn is not a strong opponent, merely a very scary one?
I didn't want him as a Labour leader not just because he's useless (although he is) or dishonest (although even by political standards Traingate, IRA members, Eisen etc are pretty bad) but because he's an actual menace to our economy and our democracy. Whether he'd be as bad as Chavez I don't know but there are far too many uncomfortable parallels with Allende.
Yes, I was so 'never' Labour that I voted for them the first time I could ever vote in a GE.
You act as if I've become a kind of advocate for Conservatism when really all I've done is be critical of Corbyn and his acolytes - as I have been for the last two years on the site now.
I've spent most of the last few weeks being very critical of May.
But I know that the Corbynistas have a 'with us or without us' attitude and those who don't worship Corbyn are ''bad'' people.
If you were a secret Tory all along you did a bloody good job of hiding it. You certainly had me fooled.
To a lot of Corbynistas everyone who opposes the hard-left is a 'Tory' or a 'Blairite.'
EXCL by @ByLynnDavidson: Amber Rudd's father died on Monday but it didn't stop her taking part in tonight's debate: https://t.co/ckDllvnAgZ May 31, 2017
Isn't it for Amber Rudd to decide what she does or doesn't want to do?
Theresa May could have insisted that Amber Rudd be given time to grieve, but she didn't.
What earthly business is it of yours, you nasty little man?
It is my business, I'm a voter and it reflects poorly on cowardly Theresa May.
It's actually an idea worth looking at, if done in the right way (which Labour won't, of course), particularly if at least some of the proceeds are used to reduce undesirable taxation elsewhere.
Land value tax.. jeez about as toxic as Chernobyl
They seem to manage alright in France with a property tax, which isn't so far away. Indeed the combination of Council Tax and Business Rates is a surrogate for a land tax, of sorts.
Yeah but council tax is non existent or very low,.. at the end of the day you can only tax people so much until they rebel./.. Corbyn's policies will lead to serious trouble.
ONE THING WE WILL LEARN FROM THIS ELECTION IS IGNORE THE POLLS> END OF>
Whats going on on the ground matters and reports thereof are far more important, if accuirately described.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Government is coming for a slice of property equity whatever. The Tories have already given that game away.
I'd still rather that the person behind that not be a Marxist.
How difficult is it to understand the difference between using your own assets to spend on yourself to look after yourself when you need care (the Tory proposal) and taking your wealth to spend on others (what Labour will do)?
Look at @BJO - one moment howling at the unfairness of the Dementia tax because the Governnment will steal Granny's house and this evening demanding that the wealthy i.e. those with houses be taxed even more than now.
Why is the former "theft" and the latter not?
Oh, I remember now. The latter is being done by Labour and so is OK and the former by Tories and therefore evil.
It's utterly pathetic.
You talk about Morals what kind of Government starves its own people to cut the top rate of tax for its donors
That's not quite true, is it? Isn't the argument that it encourages talented higher earners to stay in Britain and contribute to our economy?
If the talent goes, so do the jobs.
Not saying I agree with that - but cut the hyperbole. There is a reason that isnt 'because Monsters'.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Government is coming for a slice of property equity whatever. The Tories have already given that game away.
I'd still rather that the person behind that not be a Marxist.
How difficult is it to understand the difference between using your own assets to spend on yourself to look after yourself when you need care (the Tory proposal) and taking your wealth to spend on others (what Labour will do)?
Look at @BJO - one moment howling at the unfairness of the Dementia tax because the Governnment will steal Granny's house and this evening demanding that the wealthy i.e. those with houses be taxed even more than now.
Why is the former "theft" and the latter not?
Oh, I remember now. The latter is being done by Labour and so is OK and the former by Tories and therefore evil.
It's utterly pathetic.
You have completely lost it IMO
Your hatred of Corbyn clouds everything you post now.
You talk about Morals what kind of Government starves its own people to cut the top rate of tax for its donors
What sort of Government introduces cuts that mean disabled people suffer more misery and in some commit suicide to give sweeties to those who are already well off.
I thought you had some compassion.
Me Me Me society has to end.
This. I used to enjoy Cyclefree's posts but I agree the tenor has changed.
Ehh, from my perspective he can make a better future for the next 10 or so years, by the time the debts are called in I can then be living & working in a different country.
That's an interesting post, highlighting the greed, selfishness and moral cowardice that underpins Labour - we'll take what we want because we are good people and deserve it and you are evil and we hate you all. It always has been fundamental to Labour of course (look up Emmanuel Shinwell if you don't believe me) but I don't think I've ever seen quite such a stunning lack of self-awareness of it, not even in O'Farrell's memoirs (where he admits in the 1980s he was essentially a Fascist).
Tony Blair persuaded people that actually it wasn't the case and Labour did care about real people with real lives for a while, but Labour (a) failed to actually capitalise on that by a significant rejigging of our economy and welfare system when they had the chance and (b) has forgotten that painfully learned lesson that actually most people really do see them with a clear eye and hate them not because of MSM bias but because loads of them are truly vile human beings.
I have always thought it is no coincidence that the leaders of both the Fascist and Communist parties in this country emerged from Labour. I wonder if we're about to see history repeat itself there?
For what it is worth, I usually consider myself a fiscal conservative. However the policies of both parties over the past few decades have enriched the baby-boomers beyond belief, and as their demands on the state grow (e.g. healthcare) the burden to fund this has been put on the young, not the old. Until the balance has been fixed we can expect a further rise in radical politics.
FWIW, the much derided Tory plan on social care did exactly this. It required rich pensioners to pay for their social care.
Look you don't know the conversation Rudd and May had. She could have told May she wants to keep working and doing this is, if that's the case May isn't going to go against that.
May had the perfect excuse to step in and relieve Rudd, so by looking compassionate and decisive. She's useless.
She IS useless. We agree. But if you were living in the UK, would you vote for Jezza?
No. Because you're not a Marxist, Islamist-loving scumbag
We have no choice, even as we despair of the choice. We have to vote for the hapless May
Farron might be better to relax and joke about a bit more - he's better at that than rehearsing the slightly laboured prepared anecdotes
Relaxing and joking about is his natural style, and at conference he is brilliant at it. The leadership has him caught between being himself and playing the more serious statesman, a style which doesn't suit him at all.
Ehh, from my perspective he can make a better future for the next 10 or so years, by the time the debts are called in I can then be living & working in a different country.
That's an interesting post, highlighting the greed, selfishness and moral cowardice that underpins Labour - we'll take what we want because we are good people and deserve it and you are evil and we hate you all. It always has been fundamental to Labour of course (look up Emmanuel Shinwell if you don't believe me) but I don't think I've ever seen quite such a stunning lack of self-awareness of it, not even in O'Farrell's memoirs (where he admits in the 1980s he was essentially a Fascist).
Tony Blair persuaded people that actually it wasn't the case and Labour did care about real people with real lives for a while, but Labour (a) failed to actually capitalise on that by a significant rejigging of our economy and welfare system when they had the chance and (b) has forgotten that painfully learned lesson that actually most people really do see them with a clear eye and hate them not because of MSM bias but because loads of them are truly vile human beings.
I have always thought it is no coincidence that the leaders of both the Fascist and Communist parties in this country emerged from Labour. I wonder if we're about to see history repeat itself there?
For what it is worth, I usually consider myself a fiscal conservative. However the policies of both parties over the past few decades have enriched the baby-boomers beyond belief, and as their demands on the state grow (e.g. healthcare) the burden to fund this has been put on the young, not the old. Until the balance has been fixed we can expect a further rise in radical politics.
Also just to add to your 'vile human being' bit, perhaps you need to consider what made people take up these views in the first place. While I agree that there are people of my generation (16-24) that are vile in their opinions towards those that have benefited so much from Government policies, if there wasn't so much unfairness in the system then they likely wouldn't have these views.
The BBC has to do something about their audience selection for QT audiences. There was no way that lot were representative of the British public. Typically, they vociferously cheered unilateral disarmament, when the vast majority of voters support the nuclear deterrent; even Corbyn has had to backtrack on his personal beliefs on that point because of the strength of the public opinion. It never ceases to amaze me how on QT we have endless interventions from students and public sector employees, all decrying the wicked Tories. "As a student," "as a nurse", "as a doctor", "as a civil servant", "as a local government officer." Where are the retailers, the estate agents, the petrol station attendants, the cleaners, the advertising copywriters, the shop assistants, the entrepreneurs, the car sales staff, the mechanics? No less than 83 per cent of the British workforce are in the private sector. Judging by Question Time audience contributions, you would think that figure was about 10 per cent.
Completely off topic but relevant to MI5 after Manchester. The uk intelligence services infiltrated the IRA many years ago, some of the infiltrators rose to the top and we are where we are. People are amazed at the queen meeting Martin mcguiness. The long term solution is the same with other terrorism, there are casualtys along the way but at least the security services no longer recruit from just Oxbridge but from a wide range of backgrounds
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
The trouble is I really don't trust McDonnell. I'm very ill at ease to find out what he'd do.
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
He and Corbyn have so much baggage. I know plenty of people love Corbyn, but there are too many instances of people, even MPs, saying they don't like him, don't think he is up to it, that he at the very least offputs plenty of people too. It is interesting to think how someone without that baggage might put the same message, and how they'd be received.
@leomckinstry - in previous debates I've always thought the BBC audience was fairly balanced (as opposed to the usual QT audience!). But something has obviously gone wrong tonight. That said, it probably didn't hurt the Tories too much.
The BBC has to do something about their audience selection for QT audiences. There was no way that lot were representative of the British public. Typically, they vociferously cheered unilateral disarmament, when the vast majority of voters support the nuclear deterrent; even Corbyn has had to backtrack on his personal beliefs on that point because of the strength of the public opinion. It never ceases to amaze me how on QT we have endless interventions from students and public sector employees, all decrying the wicked Tories. "As a student," "as a nurse", "as a doctor", "as a civil servant", "as a local government officer." Where are the retailers, the estate agents, the petrol station attendants, the cleaners, the advertising copywriters, the shop assistants, the entrepreneurs, the car sales staff, the mechanics? No less than 83 per cent of the British workforce are in the private sector. Judging by Question Time audience contributions, you would think that figure was about 10 per cent.
Look you don't know the conversation Rudd and May had. She could have told May she wants to keep working and doing this is, if that's the case May isn't going to go against that.
May had the perfect excuse to step in and relieve Rudd, so by looking compassionate and decisive. She's useless.
She IS useless. We agree. But if you were living in the UK, would you vote for Jezza?
No. Because you're not a Marxist, Islamist-loving scumbag
We have no choice, even as we despair of the choice. We have to vote for the hapless May
Maybe she'll be replaced in a few years?
I hope so. With luck in the first weeks after the election. Rudd would be much better. TMay freezes in the headlights. Not great for Brexit.
I like Rudd, because she was married to the great AA Gill.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Government is coming for a slice of property equity whatever. The Tories have already given that game away.
I'd still rather that the person behind that not be a Marxist.
How difficult is it to understand the difference between using your own assets to spend on yourself to look after yourself when you need care (the Tory proposal) and taking your wealth to spend on others (what Labour will do)?
Look at @BJO - one moment howling at the unfairness of the Dementia tax because the Governnment will steal Granny's house and this evening demanding that the wealthy i.e. those with houses be taxed even more than now.
Why is the former "theft" and the latter not?
Oh, I remember now. The latter is being done by Labour and so is OK and the former by Tories and therefore evil.
It's utterly pathetic.
You talk about Morals what kind of Government starves its own people to cut the top rate of tax for its donors
That's not quite true, is it? Isn't the argument that it encourages talented higher earners to stay in Britain and contribute to our economy?
If the talent goes, so do the jobs.
Not saying I agree with that - but cut the hyperbole. There is a reason that isnt 'because Monsters'.
When did you last attend a foodbank. I find the suffering of people. nearly all of whom are in work, distressing
Relaxing and joking about is his natural style, and at conference he is brilliant at it. The leadership has him caught between being himself and playing the more serious statesman, a style which doesn't suit him at all.
Yes, there's something in that. He needs to work on getting the Charles Kennedy balance - able to go on HIGNFY but also with the gravitas to speak on (as was) the Iraq War and be listened to.
I so wish Kennedy hadn't drunk himself to oblivion and death. Biggest wasted talent of our time. (Pun unintentional but...)
Ehh, from my perspective he can make a better future for the next 10 or so years, by the time the debts are called in I can then be living & working in a different country.
That's an interesting post, highlighting the greed, selfishness and moral cowardice that underpins Labour - we'll take what we want because we are good people and deserve it and you are evil and we hate you all. It always has been fundamental to Labour of course (look up Emmanuel Shinwell if you don't believe me) but I don't think I've ever seen quite such a stunning lack of self-awareness of it, not even in O'Farrell's memoirs (where he admits in the 1980s he was essentially a Fascist).
Tony Blair persuaded people that actually it wasn't the case and Labour did care about real people with real lives for a while, but Labour (a) failed to actually capitalise on that by a significant rejigging of our economy and welfare system when they had the chance and (b) has forgotten that painfully learned lesson that actually most people really do see them with a clear eye and hate them not because of MSM bias but because loads of them are truly vile human beings.
I have always thought it is no coincidence that the leaders of both the Fascist and Communist parties in this country emerged from Labour. I wonder if we're about to see history repeat itself there?
For what it is worth, I usually consider myself a fiscal conservative. However the policies of both parties over the past few decades have enriched the baby-boomers beyond belief, and as their demands on the state grow (e.g. healthcare) the burden to fund this has been put on the young, not the old. Until the balance has been fixed we can expect a further rise in radical politics.
So out of curiosity, why do you shout your support for Corbyn, who would entrench that unfairness by making all benefits including pensions universal, rather than May who is proposing that people at least partially support themselves from their own resources?
Incidentally, Corbyn will not make university tuition fees free. It seems unlikely that universities - who are not actually Government bodies, please remember, but private charities - would accept the level of funding he can offer. They would instead charge private fees as they do to overseas students.
The supreme irony of Corbynism will be that his policies on education based on class warfare and free at the point of use would hammer our state education system and our university to pieces and leave only the very rich able to afford education at any level. Is that what you want? Really? Because if so I see no reason to modify my views on you.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Government is coming for a slice of property equity whatever. The Tories have already given that game away.
I'd still rather that the person behind that not be a Marxist.
How difficult is it to understand the difference between using your own assets to spend on yourself to look after yourself when you need care (the Tory proposal) and taking your wealth to spend on others (what Labour will do)?
Look at @BJO - one moment howling at the unfairness of the Dementia tax because the Governnment will steal Granny's house and this evening demanding that the wealthy i.e. those with houses be taxed even more than now.
Why is the former "theft" and the latter not?
Oh, I remember now. The latter is being done by Labour and so is OK and the former by Tories and therefore evil.
It's utterly pathetic.
You have completely lost it IMO
Your hatred of Corbyn clouds everything you post now.
You talk about Morals what kind of Government starves its own people to cut the top rate of tax for its donors
What sort of Government introduces cuts that mean disabled people suffer more misery and in some commit suicide to give sweeties to those who are already well off.
I thought you had some compassion.
Me Me Me society has to end.
This. I used to enjoy Cyclefree's posts but I agree the tenor has changed.
+1. I am not sure what went wrong; the early period works were so thoughtful.
Must admit it would be a rather fun to see how Corbyn fares in front of a hostile Tory/UKIP crowd.
Yes indeed. I get the impression he can usually handle an aggressive response, he's expecting it almost, it's when he gets irritated that he loses his cool.
Calling it a garden tax is f'ing stupid as a garden doesn't have planning permission to build on so would be low value.
Land value tax explicitly ignores whether land has buildings on it or pp for buildings on it. The term is indeed silly, but so is calling things taxes which are not taxes at all eg bedroom, dementia etc.
Fucking outrageous audience. Totally gamed by activists.
Cancel the fucking Licence Fee. Grrrr.......
:-D
It's not cowardice. It's confidence in one's own views. It's not like Labour party supporters aren't voting for their own interests too.
Get your hypocrisy in check.
But they aren't.
You can't say you're voting for a 'better future' and then vote for people who will crash the economy (Labour).
Economically incompetent people cannot deliver a better future especially for the most vulnerable in society that many Corbynistas speak of wanting to protect.
You have been hanging round with the PB tories too long!
Hard Brexit is the most damaging economic policy possible.
Corbyn will likely give us a Hard Brexit anyway, given how terrible he is likely to be as a negotiator. We are f*cked either way, but we will probably be less f*cked with Hammond/Rudd as Chancellor than McDonnell.
Government is coming for a slice of property equity whatever. The Tories have already given that game away.
I'd still rather that the person behind that not be a Marxist.
How difficult is it to understand the difference between using your own assets to spend on yourself to look after yourself when you need care (the Tory proposal) and taking your wealth to spend on others (what Labour will do)?
Look at @BJO - one moment howling at the unfairness of the Dementia tax because the Governnment will steal Granny's house and this evening demanding that the wealthy i.e. those with houses be taxed even more than now.
Why is the former "theft" and the latter not?
Oh, I remember now. The latter is being done by Labour and so is OK and the former by Tories and therefore evil.
It's utterly pathetic.
You have completely lost it IMO
Your hatred of Corbyn clouds everything you post now.
You talk about Morals what kind of Government starves its own people to cut the top rate of tax for its donors
What sort of Government introduces cuts that mean disabled people suffer more misery and in some commit suicide to give sweeties to those who are already well off.
I thought you had some compassion.
Me Me Me society has to end.
That's a bit paranoid.
The government isn't starving the public. We don't live in Stalin's Russia.
Comments
Taking the piss out of Nuttall is a joy in a truly dismal debate.
The format is terrible. I am sorry, but it should be UK parties only.
1) Rudd
2) Farron
3) Corbyn
4) Robertson
5) Lucas
6) Nuttall
7) Wood
Farron might be better to relax and joke about a bit more - he's better at that than rehearsing the slightly laboured prepared anecdotes
Tony Blair persuaded people that actually it wasn't the case and Labour did care about real people with real lives for a while, but Labour (a) failed to actually capitalise on that by a significant rejigging of our economy and welfare system when they had the chance and (b) has forgotten that painfully learned lesson that actually most people really do see them with a clear eye and hate them not because of MSM bias but because loads of them are truly vile human beings.
I have always thought it is no coincidence that the leaders of both the Fascist and Communist parties in this country emerged from Labour. I wonder if we're about to see history repeat itself there?
The seat predictor on there just seems so out of whack. LDs likely to gain Bristol West, one of only two the model suggests better than 50% chance of a gain? Everything I have heard coming out of Bristol is that they love Corbyn and if they are surging anyway, it is there.
It does predict Tory tacticals not great in Scotland, preventing LD gains from SNP. I hope that is not true.
You act as if I've become a kind of advocate for Conservatism when really all I've done is be critical of Corbyn and his acolytes - as I have been for the last two years on the site now.
I've spent most of the last few weeks being very critical of May.
But I know that the Corbynistas have a 'with us or without us' attitude and those who don't worship Corbyn are ''bad'' people.
How come, now that it looks like there might be a strong opposition, all that talk has disappeared??
It seems unlikely it will be that efficient this time, although ICM dropped a hint they may take several seats by small margins.
As long as Corbyn remains in post...
Are we getting a ComRes tonight?
But I do know that Corbyn supporters after seeing that and still voting for him, do so without a care in the world for other people and how his policies will impact them.
Rudd - Started well away from home on the economy, missed her chance on the security.
Corbyn - Gets his slogans across easily, most people though are no fools.
Farron - The Liberal who isn't a Liberal, Mr State control
Nuttall - Scouse is not good for a party leader
Lucas - Talks drivel but very well.
Robertson - Rides the tide of free subsidy from your neighbour with joy but not much gratitude.
Wood - What was the point
May probably did right, she wouldn't have enjoyed the format and certainly wouldn't have dominated.
Your hatred of Corbyn clouds everything you post now.
You talk about Morals what kind of Government starves its own people to cut the top rate of tax for its donors
What sort of Government introduces cuts that mean disabled people suffer more misery and in some commit suicide to give sweeties to those who are already well off.
I thought you had some compassion.
Me Me Me society has to end.
Whilst I doubt Labour will only be 3-4% behind in the popular vote like YG is suggesting, I do think their swing model looks plausible - the big Tory swings being concentrated most in safe Labour seats and in safe Tory seats, which thus means they essentially "waste" a lot of their extra votes.
Looking at the YouGov Seat Model, it seems to me that it's possible that even a 10% lead for the Tories (which is more likely than not, I think) would only get them a wafer-thin majority.
http://tinyurl.com/y9lz8mzv
I didn't want him as a Labour leader not just because he's useless (although he is) or dishonest (although even by political standards Traingate, IRA members, Eisen etc are pretty bad) but because he's an actual menace to our economy and our democracy. Whether he'd be as bad as Chavez I don't know but there are far too many uncomfortable parallels with Allende.
ONE THING WE WILL LEARN FROM THIS ELECTION IS IGNORE THE POLLS> END OF>
Whats going on on the ground matters and reports thereof are far more important, if accuirately described.
If the talent goes, so do the jobs.
Not saying I agree with that - but cut the hyperbole. There is a reason that isnt 'because Monsters'.
That story is someone from the Tories claiming it would lead to those fees! Ignore!
If Labour had normal political figures in the main jobs, it'd be one thing. I'd take Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor anyday over McMao.
After all, Nuttall wrote Ronnie Barker's scripts, while still a schoolboy.
https://twitter.com/adrianedmondson/status/870002391973867520
I so wish Kennedy hadn't drunk himself to oblivion and death. Biggest wasted talent of our time. (Pun unintentional but...)
Incidentally, Corbyn will not make university tuition fees free. It seems unlikely that universities - who are not actually Government bodies, please remember, but private charities - would accept the level of funding he can offer. They would instead charge private fees as they do to overseas students.
The supreme irony of Corbynism will be that his policies on education based on class warfare and free at the point of use would hammer our state education system and our university to pieces and leave only the very rich able to afford education at any level. Is that what you want? Really? Because if so I see no reason to modify my views on you.
That isn't bad for the Stories though.
He's a scouser.
https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/870000212621664257
The government isn't starving the public. We don't live in Stalin's Russia.