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They're pretty common - you can even order them online from Walmart.anotherDave said:
I sometimes follow US politics thru Tim Carney's articles/twitter feed. There's a state in the US (wisconsin?) where fried cheese curds is a convenience food. I must try this!KentRising said:
Poutine is god's own food and it is a mystery as to why it's never caught on more widely, especially the UK as we love our chips and we love our gravy and we love our cheese.anotherDave said:
Exciting canadian news from Reading. We now have a fish and chip shop that sells poutine!KentRising said:
Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.anotherDave said:
There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.williamglenn said:
In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?John_M said:While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people
), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:
http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/
http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
https://www.facebook.com/finnsfish0 -
Indeed - I'm considering moving to Reading right now.KentRising said:
Poutine is god's own food and it is a mystery as to why it's never caught on more widely, especially the UK as we love our chips and we love our gravy and we love our cheese.anotherDave said:
Exciting canadian news from Reading. We now have a fish and chip shop that sells poutine!KentRising said:
Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.anotherDave said:
There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.williamglenn said:
In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?John_M said:While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people
), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:
http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/
http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
https://www.facebook.com/finnsfish0 -
That does sound like Wisconsin!anotherDave said:
I sometimes follow US politics thru Tim Carney's articles/twitter feed. There's a state in the US (wisconsin?) where fried cheese curds is a convenience food. I must try this!KentRising said:
Poutine is god's own food and it is a mystery as to why it's never caught on more widely, especially the UK as we love our chips and we love our gravy and we love our cheese.anotherDave said:
Exciting canadian news from Reading. We now have a fish and chip shop that sells poutine!KentRising said:
Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.anotherDave said:
There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.williamglenn said:
In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?John_M said:While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people
), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:
http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/
http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
https://www.facebook.com/finnsfish0 -
Don't look at the videos on Twitter, which I saw By mistake (there is no warning on Twitter on this. I have never seen anything like it, I saw a tragic video that was terribly disturbing forced few seconds, before then closing itFrancisUrquhart said:
I have seen them. They are horrific, but so was Bataclan.SeanT said:
You clearly haven't seen the videos. For some reason this is far far worse. I don't know why, but it is. These videos will go viral. They invoke violent rage in me. God knows what they will do to the French.FrancisUrquhart said:
One word....Bataclan....if that wasn't visual disturbing shocking outrageous etc etc etc, nothing is.Moses_ said:
This is different...I can see in the pictures many young people littering the street ...dead. Piled up.FrancisUrquhart said:
Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.SeanT said:Oh my god. The videos from Nice.
This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.
If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.
People injured and some walking past in total shock completely oblivious to the situation and carnage around them.
This is very visual, this is very very different ........
Hollande is incapable of protecting the French. Get rid of him, and elect someone who can.
In terms of politics due to their system I am yet to be convinced they will do a brexit and go for le pen when they can have a right of centre politican (and the lefties will vote for them.in the run off to keep.the French Farage out)0 -
Just seen some of the close up video of the aftermath of the attack,just horrible.0
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The vid with the young lady 10/11 seconds in ? THAT vid ?SeanT said:
There is one particular video which goes from body to body to body, mutilated and flattened, or screaming and somehow alive.Moses_ said:
I know what you mean and can only agree but the Bataclan was inside the building and the visual was not that much but the horror of that event was without question.FrancisUrquhart said:
One word....Bataclan....if that wasn't visual disturbing shocking outrageous etc etc etc, nothing is.Moses_ said:
This is different...I can see in the pictures many young people littering the street ...dead. Piled up.FrancisUrquhart said:
Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.SeanT said:Oh my god. The videos from Nice.
This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.
If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.
People injured and some walking past in total shock completely oblivious to the situation and carnage around them.
This is very visual, this is very very different ........
This horror though is piled high on the open French street the evidence is plain for all to see and that's why it is different.
Indescribable. It is the Bataclan but, as you say, out in the street for all to see.
Atrocities like this start wars.0 -
- or are they just hanging aroundTheKrakenAwakes said:
Wins for Lib Dems in Wiltshire, Dorset and Somerset last few weeks - is the orange tide turning in the south west/Tim_B said:
During WW2 the US military prison was located there, and several US military personnel were executed there by hanging.slade said:Just to confirm the local result on Tuesday in Shepton Mallet - Lib Dem 419, Con 283 - LD gain from Labour.
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I can't see @EPG defending what has happened at all. Nor can I see that he or she is 'virtue signalling'.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
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We've got one on here tonight already. Completely and utterly tone deaf these virtue signallers.FrancisUrquhart said:
Give it 3-4 week & certain people will be pushing a "fudge" reasoning. It happens every.time.williamglenn said:The other reason this is worse than Bataclan is that it makes it obvious that the only way to fight this is to eject the people who would commit such crimes. There's no way of fudging the issue.
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We weakened the IRA significantly by infiltration and information.Moses_ said:
Ok I have an open mind.brokenwheel said:
Like **** we should help the people who caused it.williamglenn said:
Violent Jihad is being waged on Europe. We will need to play our part in defeating it, whether in or out of the EU.SeanT said:
No. In the end a democratic people will REBEL and say no more. As the British did with Brexit.FrancisUrquhart said:
Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.SeanT said:Oh my god. The videos from Nice.
This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.
If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.
As days go by I am more and more convinced we did the right thing.
Help so how do we approach this and where? and with what and I suppose why?
If there are parts of France, communities, which are out of the reach of the law, then that is a necessary first step. It might mean redevelopment, police action, all sorts of things.0 -
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
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Astley (Con defence) on North Norfolk LIB DEM GAIN from Tories0
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(edit) Apologies - French police reporting Eiffel Tower incident is a fire, not believe to be linked.0
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I hadn't known that. Wikipedia has more on it. Apparently several were executed for rape even though had they been tried under British law this would not have been a capital crime at the time. And although the American army was 90% white, 10 of the 18 men hanged there were black and three were Hispanic. Has it been ever thus?Tim_B said:
During WW2 the US military prison was located there, and several US military personnel were executed there by hanging, carried out by Albert Pierrepoint.slade said:Just to confirm the local result on Tuesday in Shepton Mallet - Lib Dem 419, Con 283 - LD gain from Labour.
Albert Pierrepoint didn't like the way the Americans read out the charge sheet at the hangings, which dragged the executions out: The part of the routine which I found it hardest to acclimatise myself to was the, to me, sickening interval between my introduction to the prisoner and his death. Under British custom I was working to the sort of timing where the drop fell between eight and twenty seconds after I had entered the condemned's cell. Under the American system, after I had pinioned the prisoner, he had to stand on the drop for perhaps six minutes while his charge sheet was read out, sentence spelt out, and he was asked if he had anything to say, and after that I was instructed to get on with the job.0 -
No break in the one party state there then.AndreaParma_82 said:Newham
Anamul Islam (Labour Party) 1,150
Elisabeth Whitebread (The Green Party) 681
John Oxley (Conservative Party) 301
James Rumsby (Liberal Democrats) 570 -
Who are these virtue signallers?MaxPB said:
We've got one on here tonight already. Completely and utterly tone deaf these virtue signallers.FrancisUrquhart said:
Give it 3-4 week & certain people will be pushing a "fudge" reasoning. It happens every.time.williamglenn said:The other reason this is worse than Bataclan is that it makes it obvious that the only way to fight this is to eject the people who would commit such crimes. There's no way of fudging the issue.
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It's not about "all Muslims". It's about "some Muslims", of which one of the two words concerns Islam. It must be confronted within that context, there is no point supposing the terrorism is independent of it.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
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TheKrakenAwakes said:
Astley (Con defence) on North Norfolk LIB DEM GAIN from Tories
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Lib Dems gained Newquay from UKIP0
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Newuay, Treviglas LIB DEM GAIN from UKIP0
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Somehow "Winning here" doesn't feel like the right tone tonight though(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( 0
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+1EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
A very sensible post among the rabid lunacy that is sometimes posted on this site.0 -
Share of vote up 40.9%Pulpstar said:0 -
Sky now saying 60 dead
Bloody hell0 -
I don't blame the whole group, but there's clearly a problem and seemingly no way to prevent it. Doing nothing doesn't help, doing something doesn't help. Soft targets are unavoidable no matter how extreme we get in response, so what more can we even do reactively? It's a depressing and terrible circle.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
It'll all be back to normal very shortly.0 -
That was the one that wan't being defended?MarkSenior said:Lib Dems gained Newquay from UKIP
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Reports are that the truck driver got out & starting shooting after ploughing into the crowd.Sunil_Prasannan said:Sky now saying 60 dead
Bloody hell
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North Norfolk LD 319 Con 198 UKIP 133 Green 81 Lab 51
Newquay LD 486 Con 210 Lab 87 Ind 580 -
Heaven must be very disappointing for americans.Tim_B said:
They're pretty common - you can even order them online from Walmart.anotherDave said:
I sometimes follow US politics thru Tim Carney's articles/twitter feed. There's a state in the US (wisconsin?) where fried cheese curds is a convenience food. I must try this!KentRising said:
Poutine is god's own food and it is a mystery as to why it's never caught on more widely, especially the UK as we love our chips and we love our gravy and we love our cheese.anotherDave said:
Exciting canadian news from Reading. We now have a fish and chip shop that sells poutine!KentRising said:
Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.anotherDave said:
There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.williamglenn said:
In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?John_M said:While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people
), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:
http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/
http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
https://www.facebook.com/finnsfish0 -
@TCPoliticalBetting listed perfectly valid reasons as to why Muslims in the West become radicalised. @EPG dismissed them because they don't suit the narrative being pushed that Islam is the "religion of peace". He can claim what he likes, use whatever weasel words he wants, but deep down he's so scared of being labeled a racist that he is willing to put up with the mass rapes, terrorist attacks, child abuse and everything else that comes with Muslim migration. Immediately he's denying that the cause if terrorist attacks are Muslim values and culture, it's just sad.The_Apocalypse said:
I can't see @EPG defending what has happened at all. Nor can I see that he or she is 'virtue signalling'.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
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On the subject of council by-elections...How about those Lib Dems, eh? Tim Farron must be prepping for an early election - he'd be LOTO in no time.0
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All of us have a duty to stand up to it though, and that goes double for Muslims in whose name these atrocities are being perpetrated. There are times in history when you are forced to take a moral stand.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
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Well yes. Brexit was about not being run by the EU - not about not co-operating with other European nations.John_M said:
One more thingwilliamglenn said:
Violent Jihad is being waged on Europe. We will need to play our part in defeating it, whether in or out of the EU.SeanT said:
No. In the end a democratic people will REBEL and say no more. As the British did with Brexit.FrancisUrquhart said:
Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.SeanT said:Oh my god. The videos from Nice.
This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.
If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.
As days go by I am more and more convinced we did the right thing.. Our intelligence links and partnerships are all outwith EU agreements and treaties. We were doing this stuff pre-EEC and we'll be doing it post-EU. 0 -
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.0
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Trowbridge LD gain from Ind
Bradford Lab hold0 -
I said at the time his "48%" was smart politics, and joined myself !AramintaMoonbeamQC said:On the subject of council by-elections...How about those Lib Dems, eh? Tim Farron must be prepping for an early election - he'd be LOTO in no time.
I have some places in mind I might back the yellow peril if a GE comes up.0 -
Bradford
Lab 1207
UKIP 655
Con 451
LD 700 -
Weasel, weasel, weasel. That's all you've got.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
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War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.0 -
There is no appetite for foreign wars or military intervention (on the ground at least). The reaction is likely to be a turning inward, looking to get your own house in order. Which may for the French mean voting for Le Pen.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
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This, sadly.SeanT said:
Islam is diseased. A great religion has a psychosis. Individual Muslims aren't all and equally to blame, in any way, but their faith is dangerous to others, and while it goes through this spasm of violent supremacism we need to minimise our exposure to its adherents.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Same could be said of Germans and Nazism in 1935.
Fuck me. So much solidarity with France. A beautiful, wonderful country. Marchons les citoyens.
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Don't be silly all those that voted are all thick little Englanders that don't care about stuff happening abroad....or some such nonsense.SeanT said:
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.kle4 said:
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.0 -
I can see how Muslims only going to Muslim schools and not integrating with the rest of the population would cause issues. But I am not sure how arranged marriages or wives from the Middle East are causing radicalisation.MaxPB said:
@TCPoliticalBetting listed perfectly valid reasons as to why Muslims in the West become radicalised. @EPG dismissed them because they don't suit the narrative being pushed that Islam is the "religion of peace". He can claim what he likes, use whatever weasel words he wants, but deep down he's so scared of being labeled a racist that he is willing to put up with the mass rapes, terrorist attacks, child abuse and everything else that comes with Muslim migration. Immediately he's denying that the cause if terrorist attacks are Muslim values and culture, it's just sad.The_Apocalypse said:
I can't see @EPG defending what has happened at all. Nor can I see that he or she is 'virtue signalling'.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
I don't think EPG wants to put up with any of the things you listed at all. I certainly don't. I just think he/she is concerned about generalising an entire group of people. There are more than a billion Muslims on planet earth. I definitely think there is an issue with radicalization within their communities without a doubt but I personally do not feel likes of Marine Le Pen are the answer. And others such as @John_M and @Jeremy_Brown have also pointed to disaffection as a cause as well as some of the values said in the name of Islam.0 -
I think the latter is by far the most likely, but if these incidents keep happening... we are probably approaching a tipping point.KentRising said:
There is no appetite for foreign wars or military intervention (on the ground at least). The reaction is likely to be a turning inward, looking to get your own house in order. Which may for the French mean voting for Le Pen.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
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And in the UK, voting for Brexit, and in the US, voting for Trump.KentRising said:
There is no appetite for foreign wars or military intervention (on the ground at least). The reaction is likely to be a turning inward, looking to get your own house in order. Which may for the French mean voting for Le Pen.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
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But, but... There is a disease somewhere. A sickness that is infecting the minds of these people. If heart disease and a garbage truck can kill in Glasgow then a truck in Nice and a sick mind can kill many more; its intentional. These sick minds are grasping for weapons to kill with. On one hand we could be grateful that the truck wasnt loaded with fertiliser but on the other the ready availability of weapons of chaos in the hands of the infected is equally scary. Where's the sickness coming from?murali_s said:
+1EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
A very sensible post among the rabid lunacy that is sometimes posted on this site.0 -
Well there's two aspects to this argument. You obviously can't blame all Muslims for the actions of the nutters. But on the other hand, maybe it might be prudent to stop importing quite so many Muslims from medieval cultures into Europe. Sure, it's only 0.001% who are crazily violent. But Germany imported over 2 million last year.MaxPB said:
Weasel, weasel, weasel. That's all you've got.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
What we do about those who are already here is a different issue entirely.0 -
We can all point the finger in rage and anger, but let's first think about the people of Nice and France - this is very traumatic and our thoughts should be with them in this terrible hour.0
-
They've had a minor revival from rock bottom in Scotland by doing old style local campaigning. Actually have time for the LD leader up here, Willie Rennie (not just because he has a funny name), who seemed to be the only person enjoying Holyrood 2016 campaigning. Its a sensible choice for centrist pro EUers in England, if Laboour continues to fall apart.Pulpstar said:
I said at the time his "48%" was smart politics, and joined myself !AramintaMoonbeamQC said:On the subject of council by-elections...How about those Lib Dems, eh? Tim Farron must be prepping for an early election - he'd be LOTO in no time.
I have some places in mind I might back the yellow peril if a GE comes up.0 -
Victory at the Grove, Trowbridge for Newbie, Chris Auckland.
Lib Dem 421 - 45.86%
Conservative 196 - 21.35%
UKIP 123 - 13.4%
Labour 77 - 8.39%
Independent 74 - 8.16%
Green 27 - 2.34%
Majority 2250 -
I don't care what I am labelled; anyone who doesn't agree with the nativist consensus on this comment section gets called a TRAITOR, which is worse than racist because treason is meant to be punished by death. I asserted that killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages, etc. This was turned into a "weasel word" because I refuse to blame immigrant Iqbal M. from Lahore for child abuse done by other people, just as I refuse to blame PB comments for racist attacks against minorities.MaxPB said:
@TCPoliticalBetting listed perfectly valid reasons as to why Muslims in the West become radicalised. @EPG dismissed them because they don't suit the narrative being pushed that Islam is the "religion of peace". He can claim what he likes, use whatever weasel words he wants, but deep down he's so scared of being labeled a racist that he is willing to put up with the mass rapes, terrorist attacks, child abuse and everything else that comes with Muslim migration. Immediately he's denying that the cause if terrorist attacks are Muslim values and culture, it's just sad.The_Apocalypse said:
I can't see @EPG defending what has happened at all. Nor can I see that he or she is 'virtue signalling'.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
0 -
Boris's speech about unity between Britain and France seems like a wonderful thought after this.SeanT said:
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.kle4 said:
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.0 -
Go to war with who though? Most terrorist attacks are committed by French Muslims radicalised over the internet or, unfortunately, over here by radical Imams. That's why the open door policy to let in another million Muslims is seen as such a crazy one, the existing Muslims haven't yet been integrated after 40-50 years in France. Their ghettos are worse than ours.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
0 -
France's Le Figaro newspaper reporting guns and grenades found in truck that ploughed into crowd in #Nice, France.0
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Willie Rennie will always conjure up this image I'm afraidAramintaMoonbeamQC said:
They've had a minor revival from rock bottom in Scotland by doing old style local campaigning. Actually have time for the LD leader up here, Willie Rennie (not just because he has a funny name), who seemed to be the only person enjoying Holyrood 2016 campaigning. Its a sensible choice for centrist pro EUers in England, if Laboour continues to fall apart.Pulpstar said:
I said at the time his "48%" was smart politics, and joined myself !AramintaMoonbeamQC said:On the subject of council by-elections...How about those Lib Dems, eh? Tim Farron must be prepping for an early election - he'd be LOTO in no time.
I have some places in mind I might back the yellow peril if a GE comes up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgSQ47iNJ3U
0 -
Christianity and atheism were not to blame for the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Iraq. My final weasel words on the subject. Exhort in your consensus, but please, go out and tell your Muslim friends this as well as PB.0
-
Interesting greens in clear second.kle4 said:
No break in the one party state there then.AndreaParma_82 said:Newham
Anamul Islam (Labour Party) 1,150
Elisabeth Whitebread (The Green Party) 681
John Oxley (Conservative Party) 301
James Rumsby (Liberal Democrats) 570 -
Michael Horowitz
Le Figaro now quotes a police source stating death toll reached 73 #Nice
https://t.co/jVjXwbo3Yx0 -
Boris' speech though completely rubbish at the time has now taken on a quite different take. Odd how that can happen sometimesAndyJS said:
Boris's speech about unity between Britain and France seems like a wonderful thought after this.SeanT said:
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.kle4 said:
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.0 -
Some expert on BBC News just said France is "playing catch up" in regards to terrorism prevention. But I'd have thought as a member of the EU etc....SeanT said:
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.kle4 said:
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?0 -
No, just a different way of seeing things. I disagree, but I understand. Weasel, weasel, weasel is virtue signalling.MaxPB said:
Weasel, weasel, weasel. That's all you've got.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
0 -
Our thoughts, prayers, flags at half mast, and lighting up buildings in red, white, and blue are doing fuck all. And don't get me started on hashtags.murali_s said:We can all point the finger in rage and anger, but let's first think about the people of Nice and France - this is very traumatic and our thoughts should be with them in this terrible hour.
0 -
The sane left. You should a political party you know.SouthamObserver said:
This, sadly.SeanT said:
Islam is diseased. A great religion has a psychosis. Individual Muslims aren't all and equally to blame, in any way, but their faith is dangerous to others, and while it goes through this spasm of violent supremacism we need to minimise our exposure to its adherents.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Same could be said of Germans and Nazism in 1935.
Fuck me. So much solidarity with France. A beautiful, wonderful country. Marchons les citoyens.
Agreed about France. Nice especially, my first girlfriend had a holiday home there so I spent a few weeks there for two summers. Magical place.0 -
I believe there is a denomination of islam that is overtly peaceful. But not very numerous. State trained imams in from that flavour?Cookie said:
Well there's two aspects to this argument. You obviously can't blame all Muslims for the actions of the nutters. But on the other hand, maybe it might be prudent to stop importing quite so many Muslims from medieval cultures into Europe. Sure, it's only 0.001% who are crazily violent. But Germany imported over 2 million last year.MaxPB said:
Weasel, weasel, weasel. That's all you've got.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
What we do about those who are already here is a different issue entirely.
Edit
"Ahmadiyya Muslims formally reject the concept of Jihad that other schools cling to. In Britain whenever there is a vaguely positive news story about Islam it almost invariably involves Ahmadi Muslims."
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/the-questions-nobody-wants-to-ask-about-asad-shahs-murder-2/
0 -
I only mentioned him in the hope someone would post that. Thought we could do with a laugh.Pulpstar said:
Willie Rennie will always conjure up this image I'm afraidAramintaMoonbeamQC said:
They've had a minor revival from rock bottom in Scotland by doing old style local campaigning. Actually have time for the LD leader up here, Willie Rennie (not just because he has a funny name), who seemed to be the only person enjoying Holyrood 2016 campaigning. Its a sensible choice for centrist pro EUers in England, if Laboour continues to fall apart.Pulpstar said:
I said at the time his "48%" was smart politics, and joined myself !AramintaMoonbeamQC said:On the subject of council by-elections...How about those Lib Dems, eh? Tim Farron must be prepping for an early election - he'd be LOTO in no time.
I have some places in mind I might back the yellow peril if a GE comes up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgSQ47iNJ3U0 -
But they are badly treated compared to other countries like the UK, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, etc.SeanT said:
They're not badly treated. Muslims in France have incomparably better opportunities in France than anywhere in the Muslim world.John_M said:
Large, disaffected and badly treated muslim population, more pointedly.anotherDave said:
Large muslim population.Disraeli said:Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France?
Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/
Yet too many of them choose to kill, or to sympathise with those who kill. Ca suffit.0 -
Security relationship should be completely unaffected by EU I'd imagine. Well I'd hope so at least.KentRising said:
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
I doubt we're safer from terrorism in or out.0 -
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbayamurali_s said:We can all point the finger in rage and anger, but let's first think about the people of Nice and France - this is very traumatic and our thoughts should be with them in this terrible hour.
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbayah
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
This has as much impact as your platitudes.
We either start taking it seriously and fighting back or sit round the campfire.0 -
Yes, they are all in fact quite natural reactions to the problems we face.williamglenn said:
And in the UK, voting for Brexit, and in the US, voting for Trump.KentRising said:
There is no appetite for foreign wars or military intervention (on the ground at least). The reaction is likely to be a turning inward, looking to get your own house in order. Which may for the French mean voting for Le Pen.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
0 -
It was a lovely programme actually, took my mind off the news in Nice.TCPoliticalBetting said:BBC2 programme just started called Normal For Norfolk!
0 -
+1 in all my years of dealing with French IT consultancies its remarkable how few non-white people they have...AndyJS said:
But they are badly treated compared to other countries like the UK, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, etc.SeanT said:
They're not badly treated. Muslims in France have incomparably better opportunities in France than anywhere in the Muslim world.John_M said:
Large, disaffected and badly treated muslim population, more pointedly.anotherDave said:
Large muslim population.Disraeli said:Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France?
Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/
Yet too many of them choose to kill, or to sympathise with those who kill. Ca suffit.0 -
I am very, very upset. All over the place. SeanT is right. He just is. I don't like it. I wish it wasn't so. But he's right. No more point scoring. This cannot carry on.MaxPB said:
The sane left. You should a political party you know.SouthamObserver said:
This, sadly.SeanT said:
Islam is diseased. A great religion has a psychosis. Individual Muslims aren't all and equally to blame, in any way, but their faith is dangerous to others, and while it goes through this spasm of violent supremacism we need to minimise our exposure to its adherents.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Same could be said of Germans and Nazism in 1935.
Fuck me. So much solidarity with France. A beautiful, wonderful country. Marchons les citoyens.
Agreed about France. Nice especially, my first girlfriend had a holiday home there so I spent a few weeks there for two summers. Magical place.
0 -
UK jihadis often seem to come from educated well off back grounds.AndyJS said:
But they are badly treated compared to other countries like the UK, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, etc.SeanT said:
They're not badly treated. Muslims in France have incomparably better opportunities in France than anywhere in the Muslim world.John_M said:
Large, disaffected and badly treated muslim population, more pointedly.anotherDave said:
Large muslim population.Disraeli said:Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France?
Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/
Yet too many of them choose to kill, or to sympathise with those who kill. Ca suffit.
0 -
I can understand why Britain voted for Brexit even though I voted Remain (albeit not enthusiastically). However, it certainly appears that Americans are very divided on Trump. Certain demographics consider him a 'solution' while others see him as a nightmare.0
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So why do they keep volunteering for this poor treatment? Nobody is forcing them to move to franceAndyJS said:
But they are badly treated compared to other countries like the UK, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, etc.SeanT said:
They're not badly treated. Muslims in France have incomparably better opportunities in France than anywhere in the Muslim world.John_M said:
Large, disaffected and badly treated muslim population, more pointedly.anotherDave said:
Large muslim population.Disraeli said:Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France?
Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/
Yet too many of them choose to kill, or to sympathise with those who kill. Ca suffit.0 -
Some good points here.SeanT said:
You don't go to war with the Middle East, you go to war with: the idea of open door immigration, with the idea of multiculturalism, with liberal encouragement of Islam, and the tacit acceptance of Islamism in western countries.MaxPB said:
Go to war with who though? Most terrorist attacks are committed by French Muslims radicalised over the internet or, unfortunately, over here by radical Imams. That's why the open door policy to let in another million Muslims is seen as such a crazy one, the existing Muslims haven't yet been integrated after 40-50 years in France. Their ghettos are worse than ours.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Unless and until Islam decides to Enlighten itself, we have to minimise our exposure to Islam. That means minimal if not zero immigraton from Muslim countries and a series of measures designed to make life very difficult in the West for fundamentalist Muslims - no more sharia, no more Muslim schools, no more imported imams, no more burqas, no more halal slaughter, no more prayer time at work, no more understanding of Muslims cab drivers who won't take guide dogs.
Their religion means everything to them. Make it impossible for them to practise their religion in a fundamentalist way, and they will peacefully leave.
The nice liberal Muslims can stay, and they are very welcome.
But, isn't this the slippery slope? There is a possibility that there will be a huge backlash against ALL Muslims and ALL ethnic minorities. After 'cleansing' out Islam, what's next?0 -
But the tragedy of the Ahmadiyya is that they are not considered Muslim by most other sects of Islam.anotherDave said:
I believe there is a denomination of islam that is overtly peaceful. But not very numerous. State trained imams in from that flavour?Cookie said:
Well there's two aspects to this argument. You obviously can't blame all Muslims for the actions of the nutters. But on the other hand, maybe it might be prudent to stop importing quite so many Muslims from medieval cultures into Europe. Sure, it's only 0.001% who are crazily violent. But Germany imported over 2 million last year.MaxPB said:
Weasel, weasel, weasel. That's all you've got.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
What we do about those who are already here is a different issue entirely.
Edit
"Ahmadiyya Muslims formally reject the concept of Jihad that other schools cling to. In Britain whenever there is a vaguely positive news story about Islam it almost invariably involves Ahmadi Muslims."
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/the-questions-nobody-wants-to-ask-about-asad-shahs-murder-2/0 -
Oh, dearanotherDave said:...This unwelcome fact is an example of a well-established rule in social psychology, which is that the more knowledgeable you are, the more likely you are to suffer from ideological bias, whether left or right. That was the conclusion of Peter Hatemi and Rose McDermott in a recent paper for the Annual Review of Political Science. All the evidence suggests that those who place a high value on facts and see themselves as truth-seekers are no more likely to arrive at their political views through reason and analysis than swivel-eyed Eurosceptic loons..."
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/the-truth-about-post-truth-politics/
1) The article concluded that attitudes drive politics (specifically, political values influence political preferences..., well, duh), which isn't the same as "greater knowledge is greater bias".
2) Why does Young say "all the evidence"? He only cites *one* article, and it doesn't support his thesis
3) Part of the last sentence in the paragraph ("...those who place a high value on facts and see themselves as truth-seekers are no more likely to arrive at their political views through reason and analysis than swivel-eyed Eurosceptic loons...") *is* supported by the article - preferences are driven by attitudes, remember? - but that's not what Young's saying
4) "unwelcome fact", "all the evidence", "well-established rule"...oh God, peacock terms
(if you're interested, the article is here: http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-polisci-103113-034929 and Young's interpretation of it is here: http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/the-truth-about-post-truth-politics/)0 -
But we didn't minimise our exposure to Germans we had a kindertransport.SeanT said:
Islam is diseased. A great religion has a psychosis. Individual Muslims aren't all and equally to blame, in any way, but their faith is dangerous to others, and while it goes through this spasm of violent supremacism we need to minimise our exposure to its adherents.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Same could be said of Germans and Nazism in 1935.0 -
France has a long history of terrorism/counterterrorism stemming from their involvement in Algeria.KentRising said:
Some expert on BBC News just said France is "playing catch up" in regards to terrorism prevention. But I'd have thought as a member of the EU etc....SeanT said:
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.kle4 said:
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
This stuff isn't new to them like it was new to us after 9/11 / 7/7, when our counterterrorism had to pivot 170 degrees from the Irish republican stuff.
I'm really no expert though, just someone who did several undergrad modules on terrorism/counterterrorism a few years ago.0 -
I can't sleep. We have had so many happy times in France. We had a lovely cottage in Manse for many years and the locals were always warm, friendly and welcoming. Its my second favourite country in the world. So. More PB.KentRising said:
Some expert on BBC News just said France is "playing catch up" in regards to terrorism prevention. But I'd have thought as a member of the EU etc....SeanT said:
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.kle4 said:
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
The answer is: it depends. No government can protect its citizens from the determined lone wolf or small cell. We should remember that we don't even know that it was a Muslim; we're just assuming. That's sad in and of itself.
Schengen just adds to the headaches. In addition to your local threat register, you have to worry about your neighbours' radicals too.
We tend to think about the EU from our perspective. You may think its British exceptionalism, but we have one of the world's great SIGINT agencies (bolstered by UKUSA, excellent intelligence agencies and a well funded, relatively incorruptible police service.
That's not true across the bloc. From an intelligence perspective there are far more consumer countries than producers. The smaller nations gain a great deal from the collective security apparatus of the EU.
0 -
It creates another layer of insulation between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe. Intermarriage among immigrant and minorities is the lowest for Muslims in the UK, I can't imagine the situation is vastly different in France.The_Apocalypse said:
I can see how Muslims only going to Muslim schools and not integrating with the rest of the population would cause issues. But I am not sure how arranged marriages or wives from the Middle East are causing radicalisation.
I don't think EPG wants to put up with any of the things you listed at all. I certainly don't. I just think he/she is concerned about generalising an entire group of people. There are more than a billion Muslims on planet earth. I definitely think there is an issue with radicalization within their communities without a doubt but I personally do not feel likes of Marine Le Pen are the answer. And others such as @John_M and @Jeremy_Brown have also pointed to disaffection as a cause as well as some of the values said in the name of Islam.
Disaffected British youth don't blow everyone else up. Disaffection may be an indirect cause, but Islam lights the fuse (just as Brexit has done for our own idiots wrt racial attacks, unfortunately). Radical Imams and websites channel that disaffection into violence against non-Muslims using the violence and justification for violence against non-Muslims contained in the Koran.0 -
There are no experts as this proves once againPong said:
France has a long history of terrorism/counterterrorism stemming from their involvement in Algeria.KentRising said:
Some expert on BBC News just said France is "playing catch up" in regards to terrorism prevention. But I'd have thought as a member of the EU etc....SeanT said:
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.kle4 said:
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
This stuff isn't new to them like it was new to us after 9/11 / 7/7, when our counterterrorism had to pivot 170 degrees from the Irish republican stuff.
I'm really no expert though, just someone who did several undergrad modules on terrorism/counterterrorism a few years ago. 0 -
We flattened large chunks of the country, captured and interned pretty much every male between 15 and 70 and then occupied the place for half a century. That's just not feasible here.nunu said:
But we didn't minimise our exposure to Germans we had a kindertransport.SeanT said:
Islam is diseased. A great religion has a psychosis. Individual Muslims aren't all and equally to blame, in any way, but their faith is dangerous to others, and while it goes through this spasm of violent supremacism we need to minimise our exposure to its adherents.EPG said:
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.MaxPB said:
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.EPG said:
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.SeanT said:
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.EPG said:
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.TCPoliticalBetting said:I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Same could be said of Germans and Nazism in 1935.0 -
Outside Salisbury, Lab have no presence in Wiltshire Unitary at local level - it's Tory or LD. Grove was LD in 2009 on 68% to 26%. Parliamentary this is South West Wiltshire which is rock solid Tory, but Chippenham is a possible place for a LD revival, but that starts just north of Trowbridge. Keep an eye on the locals next year though.Pulpstar said:Victory at the Grove, Trowbridge for Newbie, Chris Auckland.
Lib Dem 421 - 45.86%
Conservative 196 - 21.35%
UKIP 123 - 13.4%
Labour 77 - 8.39%
Independent 74 - 8.16%
Green 27 - 2.34%
Majority 2250 -
Trump's response:
twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/7537208636067758090 -
I seem to remember getting shat on from a very great height indeed when I said this a few attacks ago. I think it was the Charlie Hebdo one.SeanT said:
You don't go to war with the Middle East, you go to war with: the idea of open door immigration, with the idea of multiculturalism, with liberal encouragement of Islam, and the tacit acceptance of Islamism in western countries.MaxPB said:
Go to war with who though? Most terrorist attacks are committed by French Muslims radicalised over the internet or, unfortunately, over here by radical Imams. That's why the open door policy to let in another million Muslims is seen as such a crazy one, the existing Muslims haven't yet been integrated after 40-50 years in France. Their ghettos are worse than ours.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Unless and until Islam decides to Enlighten itself, we have to minimise our exposure to Islam. That means minimal if not zero immigraton from Muslim countries and a series of measures designed to make life very difficult in the West for fundamentalist Muslims - no more sharia, no more Muslim schools, no more imported imams, no more burqas, no more halal slaughter, no more prayer time at work, no more understanding of Muslims cab drivers who won't take guide dogs.
Their religion means everything to them. Make it impossible for them to practise their religion in a fundamentalist way, and they will peacefully leave.
The nice liberal Muslims can stay, and they are very welcome.0 -
Mm. Possibly. But unlikely. Who's scared of the Hindus? The Sikhs? The Buddhists?murali_s said:
Some good points here.SeanT said:
You don't go to war with the Middle East, you go to war with: the idea of open door immigration, with the idea of multiculturalism, with liberal encouragement of Islam, and the tacit acceptance of Islamism in western countries.MaxPB said:
Go to war with who though? Most terrorist attacks are committed by French Muslims radicalised over the internet or, unfortunately, over here by radical Imams. That's why the open door policy to let in another million Muslims is seen as such a crazy one, the existing Muslims haven't yet been integrated after 40-50 years in France. Their ghettos are worse than ours.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Unless and until Islam decides to Enlighten itself, we have to minimise our exposure to Islam. That means minimal if not zero immigraton from Muslim countries and a series of measures designed to make life very difficult in the West for fundamentalist Muslims - no more sharia, no more Muslim schools, no more imported imams, no more burqas, no more halal slaughter, no more prayer time at work, no more understanding of Muslims cab drivers who won't take guide dogs.
Their religion means everything to them. Make it impossible for them to practise their religion in a fundamentalist way, and they will peacefully leave.
The nice liberal Muslims can stay, and they are very welcome.
But, isn't this the slippery slope. There is a possibility that there will be a huge backlash against ALL Muslims and ALL ethnic minorities. After 'cleansing' out Islam, what's next?
All religions believe things which I find ludicrous. But most of them don't appear to want to kill non-adherents. So without wanting to dismiss your reasonable points, I don't think it need be the slippery slope you fear.0 -
Paul Popper
a few days ago - French intelligence chief says France on verge of civil war https://t.co/0uAgIqplHC0 -
There is a total twat of a British woman on Sky complaining about her shopping trip being ruined by this....0
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I'm off to Kent v Surrey later and I'm sure there'll be the black arm bands and maybe a minute's silence or applause as at the football I went to after the Battaclan. We can mourn all we want but it does not deal with the matter of why this stuff keeps on happening.0
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Tragic events in Nice. This attack is particularly troubling as it has been so effective. 70 dead from 1 man driving a truck. That could easily inspire numerous other loner attacks, in any country.
BFM TV is showing a video of the truck actually driving into the crowds. Lots of children out and about by the looks of it.
Twitter has an autoplay feature on videos that started showing a video of bodies on the ground, very grim. I personally don't watch these type of videos, but what do PBers think on watching mobile footage etc of attacks? the type of stuff not shown on TV networks.0 -
I do agree that Radicals within the Muslim community take advantage of the disaffection that some Muslims may feel and use that to radicalise young Muslims. There does appear to be a unique level of disaffection in France, that I cannot really see in this country in regard to the Banlieues. From the little I have read about them, I cannot sight many places if Britain that are quite like them. Nonetheless, many countries in Europe have a colonial history. Britain certainly does, and yet in terms of integration we do not seem to have anywhere near the kind of issues France has had (and still has) with 2nd and 3rd generations.MaxPB said:
It creates another layer of insulation between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe. Intermarriage among immigrant and minorities is the lowest for Muslims in the UK, I can't imagine the situation is vastly different in France.The_Apocalypse said:
I can see how Muslims only going to Muslim schools and not integrating with the rest of the population would cause issues. But I am not sure how arranged marriages or wives from the Middle East are causing radicalisation.
I don't think EPG wants to put up with any of the things you listed at all. I certainly don't. I just think he/she is concerned about generalising an entire group of people. There are more than a billion Muslims on planet earth. I definitely think there is an issue with radicalization within their communities without a doubt but I personally do not feel likes of Marine Le Pen are the answer. And others such as @John_M and @Jeremy_Brown have also pointed to disaffection as a cause as well as some of the values said in the name of Islam.
Disaffected British youth don't blow everyone else up. Disaffection may be an indirect cause, but Islam lights the fuse (just as Brexit has done for our own idiots wrt racial attacks, unfortunately). Radical Imams and websites channel that disaffection into violence against non-Muslims using the violence and justification for violence against non-Muslims contained in the Koran.0 -
The 'successful' attacks seem to be small cells or individuals acting alone. Nothing for spys to see.John_M said:
I can't sleep. We have had so many happy times in France. We had a lovely cottage in Manse for many years and the locals were always warm, friendly and welcoming. Its my second favourite country in the world. So. More PB.KentRising said:
Some expert on BBC News just said France is "playing catch up" in regards to terrorism prevention. But I'd have thought as a member of the EU etc....SeanT said:
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.kle4 said:
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.DanSmith said:How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
The answer is: it depends. No government can protect its citizens from the determined lone wolf or small cell. We should remember that we don't even know that it was a Muslim; we're just assuming. That's sad in and of itself.
Schengen just adds to the headaches. In addition to your local threat register, you have to worry about your neighbours' radicals too.
We tend to think about the EU from our perspective. You may think its British exceptionalism, but we have one of the world's great SIGINT agencies (bolstered by UKUSA, excellent intelligence agencies and a well funded, relatively incorruptible police service.
That's not true across the bloc. From an intelligence perspective there are far more consumer countries than producers. The smaller nations gain a great deal from the collective security apparatus of the EU.
0 -
This was from just 2 days ago:
"Isis to unleash car bombs in France, warns spy chief"
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/isis-to-unleash-car-bombs-in-france-warns-spy-chief-scssqds3h0 -
Tim Marshall
Le Figaro and others say 73 dead in Nice attack. Truck drove up to 2 kilometres thru crowds before halting.
2kms!!0 -
over 70 dead according to BFM now0
This discussion has been closed.