Poutine is god's own food and it is a mystery as to why it's never caught on more widely, especially the UK as we love our chips and we love our gravy and we love our cheese.
I sometimes follow US politics thru Tim Carney's articles/twitter feed. There's a state in the US (wisconsin?) where fried cheese curds is a convenience food. I must try this!
They're pretty common - you can even order them online from Walmart.
Poutine is god's own food and it is a mystery as to why it's never caught on more widely, especially the UK as we love our chips and we love our gravy and we love our cheese.
Indeed - I'm considering moving to Reading right now.
Poutine is god's own food and it is a mystery as to why it's never caught on more widely, especially the UK as we love our chips and we love our gravy and we love our cheese.
I sometimes follow US politics thru Tim Carney's articles/twitter feed. There's a state in the US (wisconsin?) where fried cheese curds is a convenience food. I must try this!
This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.
If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.
Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
This is different...I can see in the pictures many young people littering the street ...dead. Piled up.
People injured and some walking past in total shock completely oblivious to the situation and carnage around them.
This is very visual, this is very very different ........
One word....Bataclan....if that wasn't visual disturbing shocking outrageous etc etc etc, nothing is.
You clearly haven't seen the videos. For some reason this is far far worse. I don't know why, but it is. These videos will go viral. They invoke violent rage in me. God knows what they will do to the French.
Hollande is incapable of protecting the French. Get rid of him, and elect someone who can.
I have seen them. They are horrific, but so was Bataclan.
In terms of politics due to their system I am yet to be convinced they will do a brexit and go for le pen when they can have a right of centre politican (and the lefties will vote for them.in the run off to keep.the French Farage out)
Don't look at the videos on Twitter, which I saw By mistake (there is no warning on Twitter on this. I have never seen anything like it, I saw a tragic video that was terribly disturbing forced few seconds, before then closing it
This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.
If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.
Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
This is different...I can see in the pictures many young people littering the street ...dead. Piled up.
People injured and some walking past in total shock completely oblivious to the situation and carnage around them.
This is very visual, this is very very different ........
One word....Bataclan....if that wasn't visual disturbing shocking outrageous etc etc etc, nothing is.
I know what you mean and can only agree but the Bataclan was inside the building and the visual was not that much but the horror of that event was without question.
This horror though is piled high on the open French street the evidence is plain for all to see and that's why it is different.
There is one particular video which goes from body to body to body, mutilated and flattened, or screaming and somehow alive.
Indescribable. It is the Bataclan but, as you say, out in the street for all to see.
Atrocities like this start wars.
The vid with the young lady 10/11 seconds in ? THAT vid ?
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I can't see @EPG defending what has happened at all. Nor can I see that he or she is 'virtue signalling'.
The other reason this is worse than Bataclan is that it makes it obvious that the only way to fight this is to eject the people who would commit such crimes. There's no way of fudging the issue.
Give it 3-4 week & certain people will be pushing a "fudge" reasoning. It happens every.time.
We've got one on here tonight already. Completely and utterly tone deaf these virtue signallers.
This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.
If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.
Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
No. In the end a democratic people will REBEL and say no more. As the British did with Brexit.
As days go by I am more and more convinced we did the right thing.
Violent Jihad is being waged on Europe. We will need to play our part in defeating it, whether in or out of the EU.
Like **** we should help the people who caused it.
Ok I have an open mind.
Help so how do we approach this and where? and with what and I suppose why?
We weakened the IRA significantly by infiltration and information.
If there are parts of France, communities, which are out of the reach of the law, then that is a necessary first step. It might mean redevelopment, police action, all sorts of things.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
Just to confirm the local result on Tuesday in Shepton Mallet - Lib Dem 419, Con 283 - LD gain from Labour.
During WW2 the US military prison was located there, and several US military personnel were executed there by hanging, carried out by Albert Pierrepoint.
I hadn't known that. Wikipedia has more on it. Apparently several were executed for rape even though had they been tried under British law this would not have been a capital crime at the time. And although the American army was 90% white, 10 of the 18 men hanged there were black and three were Hispanic. Has it been ever thus?
Albert Pierrepoint didn't like the way the Americans read out the charge sheet at the hangings, which dragged the executions out: The part of the routine which I found it hardest to acclimatise myself to was the, to me, sickening interval between my introduction to the prisoner and his death. Under British custom I was working to the sort of timing where the drop fell between eight and twenty seconds after I had entered the condemned's cell. Under the American system, after I had pinioned the prisoner, he had to stand on the drop for perhaps six minutes while his charge sheet was read out, sentence spelt out, and he was asked if he had anything to say, and after that I was instructed to get on with the job.
The other reason this is worse than Bataclan is that it makes it obvious that the only way to fight this is to eject the people who would commit such crimes. There's no way of fudging the issue.
Give it 3-4 week & certain people will be pushing a "fudge" reasoning. It happens every.time.
We've got one on here tonight already. Completely and utterly tone deaf these virtue signallers.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
It's not about "all Muslims". It's about "some Muslims", of which one of the two words concerns Islam. It must be confronted within that context, there is no point supposing the terrorism is independent of it.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
+1
A very sensible post among the rabid lunacy that is sometimes posted on this site.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
I don't blame the whole group, but there's clearly a problem and seemingly no way to prevent it. Doing nothing doesn't help, doing something doesn't help. Soft targets are unavoidable no matter how extreme we get in response, so what more can we even do reactively? It's a depressing and terrible circle.
Poutine is god's own food and it is a mystery as to why it's never caught on more widely, especially the UK as we love our chips and we love our gravy and we love our cheese.
I sometimes follow US politics thru Tim Carney's articles/twitter feed. There's a state in the US (wisconsin?) where fried cheese curds is a convenience food. I must try this!
They're pretty common - you can even order them online from Walmart.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I can't see @EPG defending what has happened at all. Nor can I see that he or she is 'virtue signalling'.
@TCPoliticalBetting listed perfectly valid reasons as to why Muslims in the West become radicalised. @EPG dismissed them because they don't suit the narrative being pushed that Islam is the "religion of peace". He can claim what he likes, use whatever weasel words he wants, but deep down he's so scared of being labeled a racist that he is willing to put up with the mass rapes, terrorist attacks, child abuse and everything else that comes with Muslim migration. Immediately he's denying that the cause if terrorist attacks are Muslim values and culture, it's just sad.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
All of us have a duty to stand up to it though, and that goes double for Muslims in whose name these atrocities are being perpetrated. There are times in history when you are forced to take a moral stand.
This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.
If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.
Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
No. In the end a democratic people will REBEL and say no more. As the British did with Brexit.
As days go by I am more and more convinced we did the right thing.
Violent Jihad is being waged on Europe. We will need to play our part in defeating it, whether in or out of the EU.
One more thing . Our intelligence links and partnerships are all outwith EU agreements and treaties. We were doing this stuff pre-EEC and we'll be doing it post-EU.
Well yes. Brexit was about not being run by the EU - not about not co-operating with other European nations.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
There is no appetite for foreign wars or military intervention (on the ground at least). The reaction is likely to be a turning inward, looking to get your own house in order. Which may for the French mean voting for Le Pen.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
Islam is diseased. A great religion has a psychosis. Individual Muslims aren't all and equally to blame, in any way, but their faith is dangerous to others, and while it goes through this spasm of violent supremacism we need to minimise our exposure to its adherents.
Same could be said of Germans and Nazism in 1935.
This, sadly.
Fuck me. So much solidarity with France. A beautiful, wonderful country. Marchons les citoyens.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.
Don't be silly all those that voted are all thick little Englanders that don't care about stuff happening abroad....or some such nonsense.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I can't see @EPG defending what has happened at all. Nor can I see that he or she is 'virtue signalling'.
@TCPoliticalBetting listed perfectly valid reasons as to why Muslims in the West become radicalised. @EPG dismissed them because they don't suit the narrative being pushed that Islam is the "religion of peace". He can claim what he likes, use whatever weasel words he wants, but deep down he's so scared of being labeled a racist that he is willing to put up with the mass rapes, terrorist attacks, child abuse and everything else that comes with Muslim migration. Immediately he's denying that the cause if terrorist attacks are Muslim values and culture, it's just sad.
I can see how Muslims only going to Muslim schools and not integrating with the rest of the population would cause issues. But I am not sure how arranged marriages or wives from the Middle East are causing radicalisation.
I don't think EPG wants to put up with any of the things you listed at all. I certainly don't. I just think he/she is concerned about generalising an entire group of people. There are more than a billion Muslims on planet earth. I definitely think there is an issue with radicalization within their communities without a doubt but I personally do not feel likes of Marine Le Pen are the answer. And others such as @John_M and @Jeremy_Brown have also pointed to disaffection as a cause as well as some of the values said in the name of Islam.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
There is no appetite for foreign wars or military intervention (on the ground at least). The reaction is likely to be a turning inward, looking to get your own house in order. Which may for the French mean voting for Le Pen.
I think the latter is by far the most likely, but if these incidents keep happening... we are probably approaching a tipping point.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
There is no appetite for foreign wars or military intervention (on the ground at least). The reaction is likely to be a turning inward, looking to get your own house in order. Which may for the French mean voting for Le Pen.
And in the UK, voting for Brexit, and in the US, voting for Trump.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
+1
A very sensible post among the rabid lunacy that is sometimes posted on this site.
But, but... There is a disease somewhere. A sickness that is infecting the minds of these people. If heart disease and a garbage truck can kill in Glasgow then a truck in Nice and a sick mind can kill many more; its intentional. These sick minds are grasping for weapons to kill with. On one hand we could be grateful that the truck wasnt loaded with fertiliser but on the other the ready availability of weapons of chaos in the hands of the infected is equally scary. Where's the sickness coming from?
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
Weasel, weasel, weasel. That's all you've got.
Well there's two aspects to this argument. You obviously can't blame all Muslims for the actions of the nutters. But on the other hand, maybe it might be prudent to stop importing quite so many Muslims from medieval cultures into Europe. Sure, it's only 0.001% who are crazily violent. But Germany imported over 2 million last year. What we do about those who are already here is a different issue entirely.
We can all point the finger in rage and anger, but let's first think about the people of Nice and France - this is very traumatic and our thoughts should be with them in this terrible hour.
On the subject of council by-elections...How about those Lib Dems, eh? Tim Farron must be prepping for an early election - he'd be LOTO in no time.
I said at the time his "48%" was smart politics, and joined myself !
I have some places in mind I might back the yellow peril if a GE comes up.
They've had a minor revival from rock bottom in Scotland by doing old style local campaigning. Actually have time for the LD leader up here, Willie Rennie (not just because he has a funny name), who seemed to be the only person enjoying Holyrood 2016 campaigning. Its a sensible choice for centrist pro EUers in England, if Laboour continues to fall apart.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I can't see @EPG defending what has happened at all. Nor can I see that he or she is 'virtue signalling'.
@TCPoliticalBetting listed perfectly valid reasons as to why Muslims in the West become radicalised. @EPG dismissed them because they don't suit the narrative being pushed that Islam is the "religion of peace". He can claim what he likes, use whatever weasel words he wants, but deep down he's so scared of being labeled a racist that he is willing to put up with the mass rapes, terrorist attacks, child abuse and everything else that comes with Muslim migration. Immediately he's denying that the cause if terrorist attacks are Muslim values and culture, it's just sad.
I don't care what I am labelled; anyone who doesn't agree with the nativist consensus on this comment section gets called a TRAITOR, which is worse than racist because treason is meant to be punished by death. I asserted that killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages, etc. This was turned into a "weasel word" because I refuse to blame immigrant Iqbal M. from Lahore for child abuse done by other people, just as I refuse to blame PB comments for racist attacks against minorities.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.
Boris's speech about unity between Britain and France seems like a wonderful thought after this.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Go to war with who though? Most terrorist attacks are committed by French Muslims radicalised over the internet or, unfortunately, over here by radical Imams. That's why the open door policy to let in another million Muslims is seen as such a crazy one, the existing Muslims haven't yet been integrated after 40-50 years in France. Their ghettos are worse than ours.
On the subject of council by-elections...How about those Lib Dems, eh? Tim Farron must be prepping for an early election - he'd be LOTO in no time.
I said at the time his "48%" was smart politics, and joined myself !
I have some places in mind I might back the yellow peril if a GE comes up.
They've had a minor revival from rock bottom in Scotland by doing old style local campaigning. Actually have time for the LD leader up here, Willie Rennie (not just because he has a funny name), who seemed to be the only person enjoying Holyrood 2016 campaigning. Its a sensible choice for centrist pro EUers in England, if Laboour continues to fall apart.
Willie Rennie will always conjure up this image I'm afraid
Christianity and atheism were not to blame for the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Iraq. My final weasel words on the subject. Exhort in your consensus, but please, go out and tell your Muslim friends this as well as PB.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.
Boris's speech about unity between Britain and France seems like a wonderful thought after this.
Boris' speech though completely rubbish at the time has now taken on a quite different take. Odd how that can happen sometimes
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.
Some expert on BBC News just said France is "playing catch up" in regards to terrorism prevention. But I'd have thought as a member of the EU etc....
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
Weasel, weasel, weasel. That's all you've got.
No, just a different way of seeing things. I disagree, but I understand. Weasel, weasel, weasel is virtue signalling.
We can all point the finger in rage and anger, but let's first think about the people of Nice and France - this is very traumatic and our thoughts should be with them in this terrible hour.
Our thoughts, prayers, flags at half mast, and lighting up buildings in red, white, and blue are doing fuck all. And don't get me started on hashtags.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
Islam is diseased. A great religion has a psychosis. Individual Muslims aren't all and equally to blame, in any way, but their faith is dangerous to others, and while it goes through this spasm of violent supremacism we need to minimise our exposure to its adherents.
Same could be said of Germans and Nazism in 1935.
This, sadly.
Fuck me. So much solidarity with France. A beautiful, wonderful country. Marchons les citoyens.
The sane left. You should a political party you know.
Agreed about France. Nice especially, my first girlfriend had a holiday home there so I spent a few weeks there for two summers. Magical place.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
Weasel, weasel, weasel. That's all you've got.
Well there's two aspects to this argument. You obviously can't blame all Muslims for the actions of the nutters. But on the other hand, maybe it might be prudent to stop importing quite so many Muslims from medieval cultures into Europe. Sure, it's only 0.001% who are crazily violent. But Germany imported over 2 million last year. What we do about those who are already here is a different issue entirely.
I believe there is a denomination of islam that is overtly peaceful. But not very numerous. State trained imams in from that flavour?
Edit "Ahmadiyya Muslims formally reject the concept of Jihad that other schools cling to. In Britain whenever there is a vaguely positive news story about Islam it almost invariably involves Ahmadi Muslims."
On the subject of council by-elections...How about those Lib Dems, eh? Tim Farron must be prepping for an early election - he'd be LOTO in no time.
I said at the time his "48%" was smart politics, and joined myself !
I have some places in mind I might back the yellow peril if a GE comes up.
They've had a minor revival from rock bottom in Scotland by doing old style local campaigning. Actually have time for the LD leader up here, Willie Rennie (not just because he has a funny name), who seemed to be the only person enjoying Holyrood 2016 campaigning. Its a sensible choice for centrist pro EUers in England, if Laboour continues to fall apart.
Willie Rennie will always conjure up this image I'm afraid
Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France? Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
Security relationship should be completely unaffected by EU I'd imagine. Well I'd hope so at least.
We can all point the finger in rage and anger, but let's first think about the people of Nice and France - this is very traumatic and our thoughts should be with them in this terrible hour.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
There is no appetite for foreign wars or military intervention (on the ground at least). The reaction is likely to be a turning inward, looking to get your own house in order. Which may for the French mean voting for Le Pen.
And in the UK, voting for Brexit, and in the US, voting for Trump.
Yes, they are all in fact quite natural reactions to the problems we face.
Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France? Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
Islam is diseased. A great religion has a psychosis. Individual Muslims aren't all and equally to blame, in any way, but their faith is dangerous to others, and while it goes through this spasm of violent supremacism we need to minimise our exposure to its adherents.
Same could be said of Germans and Nazism in 1935.
This, sadly.
Fuck me. So much solidarity with France. A beautiful, wonderful country. Marchons les citoyens.
The sane left. You should a political party you know.
Agreed about France. Nice especially, my first girlfriend had a holiday home there so I spent a few weeks there for two summers. Magical place.
I am very, very upset. All over the place. SeanT is right. He just is. I don't like it. I wish it wasn't so. But he's right. No more point scoring. This cannot carry on.
Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France? Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?
I can understand why Britain voted for Brexit even though I voted Remain (albeit not enthusiastically). However, it certainly appears that Americans are very divided on Trump. Certain demographics consider him a 'solution' while others see him as a nightmare.
Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France? Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Go to war with who though? Most terrorist attacks are committed by French Muslims radicalised over the internet or, unfortunately, over here by radical Imams. That's why the open door policy to let in another million Muslims is seen as such a crazy one, the existing Muslims haven't yet been integrated after 40-50 years in France. Their ghettos are worse than ours.
You don't go to war with the Middle East, you go to war with: the idea of open door immigration, with the idea of multiculturalism, with liberal encouragement of Islam, and the tacit acceptance of Islamism in western countries.
Unless and until Islam decides to Enlighten itself, we have to minimise our exposure to Islam. That means minimal if not zero immigraton from Muslim countries and a series of measures designed to make life very difficult in the West for fundamentalist Muslims - no more sharia, no more Muslim schools, no more imported imams, no more burqas, no more halal slaughter, no more prayer time at work, no more understanding of Muslims cab drivers who won't take guide dogs.
Their religion means everything to them. Make it impossible for them to practise their religion in a fundamentalist way, and they will peacefully leave.
The nice liberal Muslims can stay, and they are very welcome.
Some good points here.
But, isn't this the slippery slope? There is a possibility that there will be a huge backlash against ALL Muslims and ALL ethnic minorities. After 'cleansing' out Islam, what's next?
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
Weasel, weasel, weasel. That's all you've got.
Well there's two aspects to this argument. You obviously can't blame all Muslims for the actions of the nutters. But on the other hand, maybe it might be prudent to stop importing quite so many Muslims from medieval cultures into Europe. Sure, it's only 0.001% who are crazily violent. But Germany imported over 2 million last year. What we do about those who are already here is a different issue entirely.
I believe there is a denomination of islam that is overtly peaceful. But not very numerous. State trained imams in from that flavour?
Edit "Ahmadiyya Muslims formally reject the concept of Jihad that other schools cling to. In Britain whenever there is a vaguely positive news story about Islam it almost invariably involves Ahmadi Muslims."
...This unwelcome fact is an example of a well-established rule in social psychology, which is that the more knowledgeable you are, the more likely you are to suffer from ideological bias, whether left or right. That was the conclusion of Peter Hatemi and Rose McDermott in a recent paper for the Annual Review of Political Science. All the evidence suggests that those who place a high value on facts and see themselves as truth-seekers are no more likely to arrive at their political views through reason and analysis than swivel-eyed Eurosceptic loons..."
1) The article concluded that attitudes drive politics (specifically, political values influence political preferences..., well, duh), which isn't the same as "greater knowledge is greater bias". 2) Why does Young say "all the evidence"? He only cites *one* article, and it doesn't support his thesis 3) Part of the last sentence in the paragraph ("...those who place a high value on facts and see themselves as truth-seekers are no more likely to arrive at their political views through reason and analysis than swivel-eyed Eurosceptic loons...") *is* supported by the article - preferences are driven by attitudes, remember? - but that's not what Young's saying 4) "unwelcome fact", "all the evidence", "well-established rule"...oh God, peacock terms
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
Islam is diseased. A great religion has a psychosis. Individual Muslims aren't all and equally to blame, in any way, but their faith is dangerous to others, and while it goes through this spasm of violent supremacism we need to minimise our exposure to its adherents.
Same could be said of Germans and Nazism in 1935.
But we didn't minimise our exposure to Germans we had a kindertransport.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.
Some expert on BBC News just said France is "playing catch up" in regards to terrorism prevention. But I'd have thought as a member of the EU etc....
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
France has a long history of terrorism/counterterrorism stemming from their involvement in Algeria.
This stuff isn't new to them like it was new to us after 9/11 / 7/7, when our counterterrorism had to pivot 170 degrees from the Irish republican stuff.
I'm really no expert though, just someone who did several undergrad modules on terrorism/counterterrorism a few years ago.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.
Some expert on BBC News just said France is "playing catch up" in regards to terrorism prevention. But I'd have thought as a member of the EU etc....
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
I can't sleep. We have had so many happy times in France. We had a lovely cottage in Manse for many years and the locals were always warm, friendly and welcoming. Its my second favourite country in the world. So. More PB.
The answer is: it depends. No government can protect its citizens from the determined lone wolf or small cell. We should remember that we don't even know that it was a Muslim; we're just assuming. That's sad in and of itself.
Schengen just adds to the headaches. In addition to your local threat register, you have to worry about your neighbours' radicals too.
We tend to think about the EU from our perspective. You may think its British exceptionalism, but we have one of the world's great SIGINT agencies (bolstered by UKUSA, excellent intelligence agencies and a well funded, relatively incorruptible police service.
That's not true across the bloc. From an intelligence perspective there are far more consumer countries than producers. The smaller nations gain a great deal from the collective security apparatus of the EU.
I can see how Muslims only going to Muslim schools and not integrating with the rest of the population would cause issues. But I am not sure how arranged marriages or wives from the Middle East are causing radicalisation.
I don't think EPG wants to put up with any of the things you listed at all. I certainly don't. I just think he/she is concerned about generalising an entire group of people. There are more than a billion Muslims on planet earth. I definitely think there is an issue with radicalization within their communities without a doubt but I personally do not feel likes of Marine Le Pen are the answer. And others such as @John_M and @Jeremy_Brown have also pointed to disaffection as a cause as well as some of the values said in the name of Islam.
It creates another layer of insulation between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe. Intermarriage among immigrant and minorities is the lowest for Muslims in the UK, I can't imagine the situation is vastly different in France.
Disaffected British youth don't blow everyone else up. Disaffection may be an indirect cause, but Islam lights the fuse (just as Brexit has done for our own idiots wrt racial attacks, unfortunately). Radical Imams and websites channel that disaffection into violence against non-Muslims using the violence and justification for violence against non-Muslims contained in the Koran.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.
Some expert on BBC News just said France is "playing catch up" in regards to terrorism prevention. But I'd have thought as a member of the EU etc....
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
France has a long history of terrorism/counterterrorism stemming from their involvement in Algeria.
This stuff isn't new to them like it was new to us after 9/11 / 7/7, when our counterterrorism had to pivot 170 degrees from the Irish republican stuff.
I'm really no expert though, just someone who did several undergrad modules on terrorism/counterterrorism a few years ago.
I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
I don't care what you think, it's true: Criminals are responsible for their actions. All Muslims are not responsible for whatever person did this any more than all French people are, or any more than those on PB who shouted about TRAITORS are responsible for those who call for "death to traitors". I don't care if this insistence on individual responsibility is unpopular. Sometimes the popular desire to blame the group for the individual leads down the worst road.
Islam is diseased. A great religion has a psychosis. Individual Muslims aren't all and equally to blame, in any way, but their faith is dangerous to others, and while it goes through this spasm of violent supremacism we need to minimise our exposure to its adherents.
Same could be said of Germans and Nazism in 1935.
But we didn't minimise our exposure to Germans we had a kindertransport.
We flattened large chunks of the country, captured and interned pretty much every male between 15 and 70 and then occupied the place for half a century. That's just not feasible here.
Victory at the Grove, Trowbridge for Newbie, Chris Auckland.
Lib Dem 421 - 45.86% Conservative 196 - 21.35% UKIP 123 - 13.4% Labour 77 - 8.39% Independent 74 - 8.16% Green 27 - 2.34%
Majority 225
Outside Salisbury, Lab have no presence in Wiltshire Unitary at local level - it's Tory or LD. Grove was LD in 2009 on 68% to 26%. Parliamentary this is South West Wiltshire which is rock solid Tory, but Chippenham is a possible place for a LD revival, but that starts just north of Trowbridge. Keep an eye on the locals next year though.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Go to war with who though? Most terrorist attacks are committed by French Muslims radicalised over the internet or, unfortunately, over here by radical Imams. That's why the open door policy to let in another million Muslims is seen as such a crazy one, the existing Muslims haven't yet been integrated after 40-50 years in France. Their ghettos are worse than ours.
You don't go to war with the Middle East, you go to war with: the idea of open door immigration, with the idea of multiculturalism, with liberal encouragement of Islam, and the tacit acceptance of Islamism in western countries.
Unless and until Islam decides to Enlighten itself, we have to minimise our exposure to Islam. That means minimal if not zero immigraton from Muslim countries and a series of measures designed to make life very difficult in the West for fundamentalist Muslims - no more sharia, no more Muslim schools, no more imported imams, no more burqas, no more halal slaughter, no more prayer time at work, no more understanding of Muslims cab drivers who won't take guide dogs.
Their religion means everything to them. Make it impossible for them to practise their religion in a fundamentalist way, and they will peacefully leave.
The nice liberal Muslims can stay, and they are very welcome.
I seem to remember getting shat on from a very great height indeed when I said this a few attacks ago. I think it was the Charlie Hebdo one.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
Go to war with who though? Most terrorist attacks are committed by French Muslims radicalised over the internet or, unfortunately, over here by radical Imams. That's why the open door policy to let in another million Muslims is seen as such a crazy one, the existing Muslims haven't yet been integrated after 40-50 years in France. Their ghettos are worse than ours.
You don't go to war with the Middle East, you go to war with: the idea of open door immigration, with the idea of multiculturalism, with liberal encouragement of Islam, and the tacit acceptance of Islamism in western countries.
Unless and until Islam decides to Enlighten itself, we have to minimise our exposure to Islam. That means minimal if not zero immigraton from Muslim countries and a series of measures designed to make life very difficult in the West for fundamentalist Muslims - no more sharia, no more Muslim schools, no more imported imams, no more burqas, no more halal slaughter, no more prayer time at work, no more understanding of Muslims cab drivers who won't take guide dogs.
Their religion means everything to them. Make it impossible for them to practise their religion in a fundamentalist way, and they will peacefully leave.
The nice liberal Muslims can stay, and they are very welcome.
Some good points here.
But, isn't this the slippery slope. There is a possibility that there will be a huge backlash against ALL Muslims and ALL ethnic minorities. After 'cleansing' out Islam, what's next?
Mm. Possibly. But unlikely. Who's scared of the Hindus? The Sikhs? The Buddhists? All religions believe things which I find ludicrous. But most of them don't appear to want to kill non-adherents. So without wanting to dismiss your reasonable points, I don't think it need be the slippery slope you fear.
I'm off to Kent v Surrey later and I'm sure there'll be the black arm bands and maybe a minute's silence or applause as at the football I went to after the Battaclan. We can mourn all we want but it does not deal with the matter of why this stuff keeps on happening.
Tragic events in Nice. This attack is particularly troubling as it has been so effective. 70 dead from 1 man driving a truck. That could easily inspire numerous other loner attacks, in any country.
BFM TV is showing a video of the truck actually driving into the crowds. Lots of children out and about by the looks of it.
Twitter has an autoplay feature on videos that started showing a video of bodies on the ground, very grim. I personally don't watch these type of videos, but what do PBers think on watching mobile footage etc of attacks? the type of stuff not shown on TV networks.
I can see how Muslims only going to Muslim schools and not integrating with the rest of the population would cause issues. But I am not sure how arranged marriages or wives from the Middle East are causing radicalisation.
I don't think EPG wants to put up with any of the things you listed at all. I certainly don't. I just think he/she is concerned about generalising an entire group of people. There are more than a billion Muslims on planet earth. I definitely think there is an issue with radicalization within their communities without a doubt but I personally do not feel likes of Marine Le Pen are the answer. And others such as @John_M and @Jeremy_Brown have also pointed to disaffection as a cause as well as some of the values said in the name of Islam.
It creates another layer of insulation between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe. Intermarriage among immigrant and minorities is the lowest for Muslims in the UK, I can't imagine the situation is vastly different in France.
Disaffected British youth don't blow everyone else up. Disaffection may be an indirect cause, but Islam lights the fuse (just as Brexit has done for our own idiots wrt racial attacks, unfortunately). Radical Imams and websites channel that disaffection into violence against non-Muslims using the violence and justification for violence against non-Muslims contained in the Koran.
I do agree that Radicals within the Muslim community take advantage of the disaffection that some Muslims may feel and use that to radicalise young Muslims. There does appear to be a unique level of disaffection in France, that I cannot really see in this country in regard to the Banlieues. From the little I have read about them, I cannot sight many places if Britain that are quite like them. Nonetheless, many countries in Europe have a colonial history. Britain certainly does, and yet in terms of integration we do not seem to have anywhere near the kind of issues France has had (and still has) with 2nd and 3rd generations.
How much longer can France keep taking this punishment? You either go to war or you vote in someone like Le Pen, things are about to get nasty either way.
War with where though? The problem is a stateless concept. Stamping down ISIS seems like the only way to contain matters, for a time, but it'll be back.
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Here's one thing - suddenly Brexit seems that little bit more sensible. I'll bet there's less Bremorse tomorrow, as people digest this hideous news.
Some expert on BBC News just said France is "playing catch up" in regards to terrorism prevention. But I'd have thought as a member of the EU etc....
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
I can't sleep. We have had so many happy times in France. We had a lovely cottage in Manse for many years and the locals were always warm, friendly and welcoming. Its my second favourite country in the world. So. More PB.
The answer is: it depends. No government can protect its citizens from the determined lone wolf or small cell. We should remember that we don't even know that it was a Muslim; we're just assuming. That's sad in and of itself.
Schengen just adds to the headaches. In addition to your local threat register, you have to worry about your neighbours' radicals too.
We tend to think about the EU from our perspective. You may think its British exceptionalism, but we have one of the world's great SIGINT agencies (bolstered by UKUSA, excellent intelligence agencies and a well funded, relatively incorruptible police service.
That's not true across the bloc. From an intelligence perspective there are far more consumer countries than producers. The smaller nations gain a great deal from the collective security apparatus of the EU.
The 'successful' attacks seem to be small cells or individuals acting alone. Nothing for spys to see.
Comments
If there are parts of France, communities, which are out of the reach of the law, then that is a necessary first step. It might mean redevelopment, police action, all sorts of things.
Albert Pierrepoint didn't like the way the Americans read out the charge sheet at the hangings, which dragged the executions out: The part of the routine which I found it hardest to acclimatise myself to was the, to me, sickening interval between my introduction to the prisoner and his death. Under British custom I was working to the sort of timing where the drop fell between eight and twenty seconds after I had entered the condemned's cell. Under the American system, after I had pinioned the prisoner, he had to stand on the drop for perhaps six minutes while his charge sheet was read out, sentence spelt out, and he was asked if he had anything to say, and after that I was instructed to get on with the job.
A very sensible post among the rabid lunacy that is sometimes posted on this site.
Bloody hell
It'll all be back to normal very shortly.
Newquay LD 486 Con 210 Lab 87 Ind 58
Bradford Lab hold
I have some places in mind I might back the yellow peril if a GE comes up.
Lab 1207
UKIP 655
Con 451
LD 70
Best wishes to all tonight - let harsh words be forgotten in the aftermath.
Fuck me. So much solidarity with France. A beautiful, wonderful country. Marchons les citoyens.
I don't think EPG wants to put up with any of the things you listed at all. I certainly don't. I just think he/she is concerned about generalising an entire group of people. There are more than a billion Muslims on planet earth. I definitely think there is an issue with radicalization within their communities without a doubt but I personally do not feel likes of Marine Le Pen are the answer. And others such as @John_M and @Jeremy_Brown have also pointed to disaffection as a cause as well as some of the values said in the name of Islam.
What we do about those who are already here is a different issue entirely.
Lib Dem 421 - 45.86%
Conservative 196 - 21.35%
UKIP 123 - 13.4%
Labour 77 - 8.39%
Independent 74 - 8.16%
Green 27 - 2.34%
Majority 225
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgSQ47iNJ3U
Le Figaro now quotes a police source stating death toll reached 73 #Nice
https://t.co/jVjXwbo3Yx
Could the reality possibly be that being part of the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference one way or another to a country's security from terror threats?
Agreed about France. Nice especially, my first girlfriend had a holiday home there so I spent a few weeks there for two summers. Magical place.
Edit
"Ahmadiyya Muslims formally reject the concept of Jihad that other schools cling to. In Britain whenever there is a vaguely positive news story about Islam it almost invariably involves Ahmadi Muslims."
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/the-questions-nobody-wants-to-ask-about-asad-shahs-murder-2/
I doubt we're safer from terrorism in or out.
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbayah
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
This has as much impact as your platitudes.
We either start taking it seriously and fighting back or sit round the campfire.
But, isn't this the slippery slope? There is a possibility that there will be a huge backlash against ALL Muslims and ALL ethnic minorities. After 'cleansing' out Islam, what's next?
1) The article concluded that attitudes drive politics (specifically, political values influence political preferences..., well, duh), which isn't the same as "greater knowledge is greater bias".
2) Why does Young say "all the evidence"? He only cites *one* article, and it doesn't support his thesis
3) Part of the last sentence in the paragraph ("...those who place a high value on facts and see themselves as truth-seekers are no more likely to arrive at their political views through reason and analysis than swivel-eyed Eurosceptic loons...") *is* supported by the article - preferences are driven by attitudes, remember? - but that's not what Young's saying
4) "unwelcome fact", "all the evidence", "well-established rule"...oh God, peacock terms
(if you're interested, the article is here: http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-polisci-103113-034929 and Young's interpretation of it is here: http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/the-truth-about-post-truth-politics/)
This stuff isn't new to them like it was new to us after 9/11 / 7/7, when our counterterrorism had to pivot 170 degrees from the Irish republican stuff.
I'm really no expert though, just someone who did several undergrad modules on terrorism/counterterrorism a few years ago.
The answer is: it depends. No government can protect its citizens from the determined lone wolf or small cell. We should remember that we don't even know that it was a Muslim; we're just assuming. That's sad in and of itself.
Schengen just adds to the headaches. In addition to your local threat register, you have to worry about your neighbours' radicals too.
We tend to think about the EU from our perspective. You may think its British exceptionalism, but we have one of the world's great SIGINT agencies (bolstered by UKUSA, excellent intelligence agencies and a well funded, relatively incorruptible police service.
That's not true across the bloc. From an intelligence perspective there are far more consumer countries than producers. The smaller nations gain a great deal from the collective security apparatus of the EU.
Disaffected British youth don't blow everyone else up. Disaffection may be an indirect cause, but Islam lights the fuse (just as Brexit has done for our own idiots wrt racial attacks, unfortunately). Radical Imams and websites channel that disaffection into violence against non-Muslims using the violence and justification for violence against non-Muslims contained in the Koran.
twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/753720863606775809
All religions believe things which I find ludicrous. But most of them don't appear to want to kill non-adherents. So without wanting to dismiss your reasonable points, I don't think it need be the slippery slope you fear.
a few days ago - French intelligence chief says France on verge of civil war https://t.co/0uAgIqplHC
BFM TV is showing a video of the truck actually driving into the crowds. Lots of children out and about by the looks of it.
Twitter has an autoplay feature on videos that started showing a video of bodies on the ground, very grim. I personally don't watch these type of videos, but what do PBers think on watching mobile footage etc of attacks? the type of stuff not shown on TV networks.
"Isis to unleash car bombs in France, warns spy chief"
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/isis-to-unleash-car-bombs-in-france-warns-spy-chief-scssqds3h
Le Figaro and others say 73 dead in Nice attack. Truck drove up to 2 kilometres thru crowds before halting.
2kms!!