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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,946

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    The public don't want one
    And how do we determine that? I think you're right, but every time there's a handover between elections we get the 'you have no mandate, there must be a GE' demands (and that they seem to be easily ignored perhaps shows the lack of care from the public), so some people care.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited July 2016

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    They have a one level drill down (click the '+') to explain the rationale. Apparently, everyone loves Canadians. They're like big fluffy Teddy Bears as far as the rest of the world is concerned.

    *edit* I should add that they think a Brexit vote would drop us down the league table.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Islington

    Lab 1192
    LD 409
    Con 367
    Greens 302
    Ind 40
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Marchog, Gwynedd

    Ind 211
    Lab 112
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I guess there's going to be a COBRA meeting tonight.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Sky news confirming terrorist attack and also fears of other gunmen in the city.

    People ordered to clear streets and stay in their homes so security forces can gain control.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
    Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,708
    Fox - Witness saying gunman fired into the crowd before being shot by police.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,854
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    The public don't want one
    And how do we determine that? I think you're right, but every time there's a handover between elections we get the 'you have no mandate, there must be a GE' demands (and that they seem to be easily ignored perhaps shows the lack of care from the public), so some people care.
    Everyone is weary of uncertainty - re Nice I once had a driver reverse into me on the promenade. It is very wide and tonight's attack is just so sad for everyone involved and for France
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,406

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
    Well I humbly suggest that if they are assessing based on popularity they're misunderstanding the meaning of power. In any case, vistitor numbers tell a different story.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,595
    AndyJS said:

    I guess there's going to be a COBRA meeting tonight.

    Will be weird to be Dave tonight
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Islington

    Lab 1192
    LD 409
    Con 367
    Greens 302
    Ind 40

    Quite bad for Lab as their vote has not held up like the Libs or Greens.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Selby

    Con 251
    Lab 224
    Yorkshire First 91

    Con gain from Lab
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,946
    Looking again at the list, that's quite a lot of by-elections.

    I know it is possible for one party councils to be well run (apparently Manchester is well run, even before it stopped being a one party state and now has 1 LD I believe), but I still instinctively get wary at seeing places like Newham. I guess they're most popular, but it just seems incredibly that in no single ward is another party able to get more votes.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034

    Islington

    Lab 1192
    LD 409
    Con 367
    Greens 302
    Ind 40

    5.5% swing to LDs
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    SeanT said:

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
    Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.
    Not sure this is the right night to be hating on the French.
    Whoever did this was probably a French citizen. That is the tragedy of it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,681
    Pretty horrific news from Nice.

    So he just drove into the crowd, no bomb aboard? Or did it fail to go off?
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Interesting that Cameron set out to "look after" some of the Spads. More honourable as an outgoing deed than slashing the pay of your successor. (Though Jonny Taxpayer may not see it this way.)

    But it did strike me this was in contrast to his disgraceful treatment of Spads who refused to canvass in Rochester and Strood by-election on the (entirely fair and reasonable, it seems to me) basis that it would be a violation of the rules. I note that several of May's team were badly affected by this, and could quite possibly be MPs now if Cameron hadn't intervened against them.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034

    Pretty horrific news from Nice.

    So he just drove into the crowd, no bomb aboard? Or did it fail to go off?

    Simply horrible :(
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    The public don't want one
    And how do we determine that? I think you're right, but every time there's a handover between elections we get the 'you have no mandate, there must be a GE' demands (and that they seem to be easily ignored perhaps shows the lack of care from the public), so some people care.
    People don't understand the UK system. The conservatives have the mandate not the PM. However, it swings both ways. The Tories were calling for an election when Brown took over. 'Twas ever thus.

    Personally, I don't think it would make much difference. Voters would revert to their tribal allegiances. I'm doubtful that Labour would collapse as some seem to think.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    SeanT said:

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
    Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.
    Not sure this is the right night to be hating on the French.
    Whoever did this was probably a French citizen. That is the tragedy of it.
    No way of knowing that
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917

    Selby

    Con 251
    Lab 224
    Yorkshire First 91

    Con gain from Lab

    Yorkshire First??
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France?
    Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?
  • kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    We absolutely do NOT want a GE in the Autumn
    Thanet S
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,946
    edited July 2016
    Perhaps there's still time for me to get down to the count and scoop the Trowbridge result before Andrea beats me to it? That gives me 15 minutes to hope they don't declare before then!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,708
    edited July 2016
    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,681

    Selby

    Con 251
    Lab 224
    Yorkshire First 91

    Con gain from Lab

    Yorkshire First??
    TSE's second favourite party? :)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,316
    MaxPB said:

    Awful. The French have to get a grip on terror.

    I am not sure that is fair in this case. I am really not clear how, short of banning all events where crowds gather, the French could actually prevent an attack of this sort. I am certainly not sure that we would do any better if a fanatic decided to drive an HGV into, for example, the crowds leaving a football match.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    alex. said:

    SeanT said:

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
    Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.
    Not sure this is the right night to be hating on the French.
    Whoever did this was probably a French citizen. That is the tragedy of it.
    No way of knowing that
    Oh come on, the guy's probably a citizen of the EU at least, likely born there, radicalised.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    The public don't want one
    And how do we determine that? I think you're right, but every time there's a handover between elections we get the 'you have no mandate, there must be a GE' demands (and that they seem to be easily ignored perhaps shows the lack of care from the public), so some people care.
    People don't understand the UK system. The conservatives have the mandate not the PM. However, it swings both ways. The Tories were calling for an election when Brown took over. 'Twas ever thus.
    Oppositions always have to call for elections. Even when they are scared shitless it might actually happen. The FTPA adds an extra dimension because they can theoretically actually prevent it. Would Labour really vote for one if May put the motion down looking for a 2/3 vote?

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,681
    Pulpstar said:

    Islington

    Lab 1192
    LD 409
    Con 367
    Greens 302
    Ind 40

    5.5% swing to LDs
    LibDems, swingin' here!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,946
    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    The public don't want one
    And how do we determine that? I think you're right, but every time there's a handover between elections we get the 'you have no mandate, there must be a GE' demands (and that they seem to be easily ignored perhaps shows the lack of care from the public), so some people care.
    Personally, I don't think it would make much difference. Voters would revert to their tribal allegiances. I'm doubtful that Labour would collapse as some seem to think.
    Given they improbability of the party splitting even with all that has gone on, the sheer tribal loyalty, I'm inclined to agree. Labour are not invincible even in their heartlands in the right circumstances, with the right people to exploit it, but they have a damn high floor of support.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
    Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.
    Exciting canadian news from Reading. We now have a fish and chip shop that sells poutine!

    https://www.facebook.com/finnsfish
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034
    @John_M" I'm doubtful that Labour would collapse as some seem to think.

    This is the REAL fear of "moderate" Labour.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,681
    edited July 2016

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
    Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.
    They were extremely reluctant to fight in France in WW1, AIUI.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,946

    Selby

    Con 251
    Lab 224
    Yorkshire First 91

    Con gain from Lab

    Yorkshire First??
    We all know how much Yorkshireman love themselves.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    alex. said:

    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    The public don't want one
    And how do we determine that? I think you're right, but every time there's a handover between elections we get the 'you have no mandate, there must be a GE' demands (and that they seem to be easily ignored perhaps shows the lack of care from the public), so some people care.
    People don't understand the UK system. The conservatives have the mandate not the PM. However, it swings both ways. The Tories were calling for an election when Brown took over. 'Twas ever thus.
    Oppositions always have to call for elections. Even when they are scared shitless it might actually happen. The FTPA adds an extra dimension because they can theoretically actually prevent it. Would Labour really vote for one if May put the motion down looking for a 2/3 vote?

    May can just call a VNC in her own government and go to the country on a simple majority. That's why I think the FTPA is a nonsense. It was a coalition-preserving fig leaf that's outlived its usefulness.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Hmm

    Christopher Hope
    NEW David Cameron over-ruled civil service advice and increased pay offs to some of his spads by £280,000 taking the total bill to over £1m.

    Ugh.
    It's a bit more complicated than that
    I'll bet it is. Hope its not taxpayers money for the extra.
    It is taxpayers' money, but it is what is due per their contracts.

    Someone in the new government decided to be shitty and open themselves to lots of compensation payments
    Why would the civil service recommend £280k then ?
    I think the Civil Service suggested £750k and it was actually £1m.

    But I'll not post any more on this subject for obvious reasons
    These are in the overall scale of things, small amounts of money and most of the SPADs are not at fault for this. A little extra eases the sudden hit. I would have expected them to get 3 months pay as a minimum.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited July 2016
    Disraeli said:

    Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France?
    Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?

    Large muslim population.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/

  • glwglw Posts: 9,887
    Disraeli said:

    Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France?
    Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?

    More extremists, and worse security and intelligence services who are scrambling to get better at their jobs.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited July 2016
    Britain Elects
    Conservative GAIN Byram & Brotherton (Selby) from Labour.

    Selby (Byram & Brotherton) result:
    CON: 44.3% (+11.8), 251 votes
    LAB: 39.6% (-4.4), 224
    YF: 16.1% (+16.1), 91
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,708
    Bbc saying dozens dead, so you know the death toll will.be a lot.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Isabel Hardman (Spectator) was actually in Nice for the fireworks.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,826

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    The public don't want one
    Exactly. People have had their fill of political argument this year, and there is already enough uncertainty around to be going on with. There is only one government that could possibly result from an election right now, and they are already in power. The opposition is seen as a joke but few hate them enough to want to kick them when they are down. People are slowly forgiving the LibDems but there is no real growth in enthusiasm. The SNP already have everything there is to win (although if they stood in England you can't help but wonder). End of.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Disraeli said:

    Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France?
    Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?

    Large muslim population.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/

    Large, disaffected and badly treated muslim population, more pointedly.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes.
    The French will vote Le Pen.
    Francis is right, nothing will change.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    John_M said:

    alex. said:

    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    The public don't want one
    And how do we determine that? I think you're right, but every time there's a handover between elections we get the 'you have no mandate, there must be a GE' demands (and that they seem to be easily ignored perhaps shows the lack of care from the public), so some people care.
    People don't understand the UK system. The conservatives have the mandate not the PM. However, it swings both ways. The Tories were calling for an election when Brown took over. 'Twas ever thus.
    Oppositions always have to call for elections. Even when they are scared shitless it might actually happen. The FTPA adds an extra dimension because they can theoretically actually prevent it. Would Labour really vote for one if May put the motion down looking for a 2/3 vote?

    May can just call a VNC in her own government and go to the country on a simple majority. That's why I think the FTPA is a nonsense. It was a coalition-preserving fig leaf that's outlived its usefulness.
    Yes I know she can. But until tested we don't really know how the public would respond to that. However if she was ambivalent over calling an election (whilst being pretty confident of the outcome) going for the 2/3rd option would be a good way of putting Labour on the spot. If they refused to play ball, there could be no criticism of her mandate.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Hmm

    Christopher Hope
    NEW David Cameron over-ruled civil service advice and increased pay offs to some of his spads by £280,000 taking the total bill to over £1m.

    Ugh.
    It's a bit more complicated than that
    I'll bet it is. Hope its not taxpayers money for the extra.
    It is taxpayers' money, but it is what is due per their contracts.

    Someone in the new government decided to be shitty and open themselves to lots of compensation payments
    Why would the civil service recommend £280k then ?
    I think the Civil Service suggested £750k and it was actually £1m.

    But I'll not post any more on this subject for obvious reasons
    These are in the overall scale of things, small amounts of money and most of the SPADs are not at fault for this. A little extra eases the sudden hit. I would have expected them to get 3 months pay as a minimum.
    I misread the original tweet as an increase from £280k to £1m, not BY

    *Twonks self on head*
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Britain Elects
    Islington (Barnsbury) result:
    LAB: 51.6% (-4.1)
    LDEM: 17.7% (+7.1)
    CON: 15.9% (-2.9)
    GRN: 13.1% (+0.7)
    IND: 1.7% (+1.7)
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
    Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.
    Exciting canadian news from Reading. We now have a fish and chip shop that sells poutine!

    https://www.facebook.com/finnsfish
    Poutine is god's own food and it is a mystery as to why it's never caught on more widely, especially the UK as we love our chips and we love our gravy and we love our cheese.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Tim Marshall
    Style of attack in Nice appears similar to those in Israel over last year. Follows calls for 'jihadists' to use whatever weapons they can.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    alex. said:

    John_M said:

    alex. said:

    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    The public don't want one
    And how do we determine that? I think you're right, but every time there's a handover between elections we get the 'you have no mandate, there must be a GE' demands (and that they seem to be easily ignored perhaps shows the lack of care from the public), so some people care.
    People don't understand the UK system. The conservatives have the mandate not the PM. However, it swings both ways. The Tories were calling for an election when Brown took over. 'Twas ever thus.
    Oppositions always have to call for elections. Even when they are scared shitless it might actually happen. The FTPA adds an extra dimension because they can theoretically actually prevent it. Would Labour really vote for one if May put the motion down looking for a 2/3 vote?

    May can just call a VNC in her own government and go to the country on a simple majority. That's why I think the FTPA is a nonsense. It was a coalition-preserving fig leaf that's outlived its usefulness.
    Yes I know she can. But until tested we don't really know how the public would respond to that. However if she was ambivalent over calling an election (whilst being pretty confident of the outcome) going for the 2/3rd option would be a good way of putting Labour on the spot. If they refused to play ball, there could be no criticism of her mandate.

    I like your thinking. However, the events in France means I've lost my appetite for politics for today. What a terrible tragedy. Good night all.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,406
    edited July 2016
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
    No. In the end a democratic people will REBEL and say no more. As the British did with Brexit.

    As days go by I am more and more convinced we did the right thing.
    Violent jihad is being waged on Europe. We will need to play our part in defeating it, whether in or out of the EU.

    It also highlights why May is the right person to lead the country at the moment.
  • On the subject of an early election. I thought Conservative insiders knew that some have started preparation? From your man on the spot Bonzo.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    @anotherDave
    @glw
    Thanks.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
    This is different...I can see in the pictures many young people littering the street ...dead. Piled up.

    People injured and some walking past in total shock completely oblivious to the situation and carnage around them.

    This is very visual, this is very very different ........
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,708
    One attacker identified & known by security authorities.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    John_M said:

    alex. said:

    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nice looks grim.

    I see Yvette Cooper shares my belief that we are getting a General Election sooner rather than later:

    http://labourlist.org/2016/07/yvette-cooper-both-eagle-and-smith-could-be-leader-but-only-one-should-go-for-it/

    The kind of political year we've had so far really needs to be capped off with a general election this autumn surely?
    My impression was the Tories themselves really don't feel like one, can any Tories say if that's the case in their circles?
    The public don't want one
    And how do we determine that? I think you're right, but every time there's a handover between elections we get the 'you have no mandate, there must be a GE' demands (and that they seem to be easily ignored perhaps shows the lack of care from the public), so some people care.
    People don't understand the UK system. The conservatives have the mandate not the PM. However, it swings both ways. The Tories were calling for an election when Brown took over. 'Twas ever thus.
    Oppositions always have to call for elections. Even when they are scared shitless it might actually happen. The FTPA adds an extra dimension because they can theoretically actually prevent it. Would Labour really vote for one if May put the motion down looking for a 2/3 vote?

    May can just call a VNC in her own government and go to the country on a simple majority. That's why I think the FTPA is a nonsense. It was a coalition-preserving fig leaf that's outlived its usefulness.
    I don't think a UK election would be fair on our EU partners. Uncertainty over Brexit has knock on effects for them.

  • BBC2 programme just started called Normal For Norfolk!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,681

    13th July = Rail minister Claire Perry admits she's considered quitting over Southern Rail
    14th July = The fairy godmother that is Mrs May grants her wish.
    Good riddance.

    Thankfully earlier in the year, I already visited all the Southern stations out to Gatwick that were recently added to the London Oystercard network, as well as riding the entire Southern network outside London. Last bit I did was Barnham to Havant, Bedhampton to Cosham and Fareham to St Denys (Southampton).
    As our rail expert, what is the reason that the Southampton St Mary's platform area is not used to move football supporters in and out on match days?
    There's a big right turn into Southampton station before you get to the stadium - do you mean the stub line going straight ahead? I think the stub line is only used rarely if at all, due to track condition. Used to lead directly to the docks, so would have been used by boat trains, presumably.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,708
    edited July 2016
    Moses_ said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
    This is different...I can see in the pictures many young people littering the street ...dead. Piled up.

    People injured and some walking past in total shock completely oblivious to the situation and carnage around them.

    This is very visual, this is very very different ........
    One word....Bataclan....if that wasn't visual disturbing shocking outrageous etc etc etc, nothing is.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
    No. In the end a democratic people will REBEL and say no more. As the British did with Brexit.

    As days go by I am more and more convinced we did the right thing.
    Violent Jihad is being waged on Europe. We will need to play our part in defeating it, whether in or out of the EU.
    One more thing :). Our intelligence links and partnerships are all outwith EU agreements and treaties. We were doing this stuff pre-EEC and we'll be doing it post-EU.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,854
    Sky showing blue flashing lights on screen. They need to be careful for migraine sufferers, me included
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Isabel Hardman
    But French TV now saying death toll being raised to 60. Am staying indoors.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited July 2016

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
    No. In the end a democratic people will REBEL and say no more. As the British did with Brexit.

    As days go by I am more and more convinced we did the right thing.
    Violent Jihad is being waged on Europe. We will need to play our part in defeating it, whether in or out of the EU.
    Like **** we should help the people who caused it.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    SeanT said:

    John_M said:

    Disraeli said:

    Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France?
    Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?

    Large muslim population.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/

    Large, disaffected and badly treated muslim population, more pointedly.
    They're not badly treated. Muslims in France have incomparably better opportunities in France than anywhere in the Muslim world.

    Yet too many of them choose to kill, or to sympathise with those who kill. Ca suffit.
    Riots seem to be more commonplace in France. Perhaps its just a more violent culture than other european countries?
  • Disraeli said:

    Serious question: Why are these extremist criminals relentlessly picking on France?
    Is it a special grudge? Is it just that there are more extremists there?

    I lived in France over 20 years ago; in Paris. Even then I would never venture into the Banlieu. They were foreign frightening places. I can only imagine how they have changed over the years. France's colonial history in Africa has created a locally sourced and very fertile bed of extremism. Cutting the cancer out will be a painful experience for all concerned.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
    No. In the end a democratic people will REBEL and say no more. As the British did with Brexit.

    As days go by I am more and more convinced we did the right thing.
    Violent Jihad is being waged on Europe. We will need to play our part in defeating it, whether in or out of the EU.
    It is a big concern that, unlike Al Qaeda, there no longer seems to be a desire to launch big well planned "spectaculars". At least that can be seen as a battle between terrorists and security services. If IS just want to kill lots of people, then there are many, many, 'soft' targets that can never be defended against, in mainland Europe especially.

  • sladeslade Posts: 2,027

    On the subject of an early election. I thought Conservative insiders knew that some have started preparation? From your man on the spot Bonzo.

    My regional LD candidates officer has taken steps to appoint 2015 parliamentary candidates in case of a snap election.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Y Felinheli Gwynedd YytflYly

    Plaid 614
    Con 49


  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Jeez

    Just seen footage on Twitter. People strewn all over the road.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,891
    SeanT said:

    Reports of 60 dead now.

    :(
  • I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Moses_ said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
    This is different...I can see in the pictures many young people littering the street ...dead. Piled up.

    People injured and some walking past in total shock completely oblivious to the situation and carnage around them.

    This is very visual, this is very very different ........
    One word....Bataclan....if that wasn't visual disturbing shocking outrageous etc etc etc, nothing is.
    They will edge further right but they have a great deal of scope with Hollande. They may go UMP next year but if that doesn't deal with it then the FN will follow as last man standing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,708
    edited July 2016
    SeanT said:

    Moses_ said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
    This is different...I can see in the pictures many young people littering the street ...dead. Piled up.

    People injured and some walking past in total shock completely oblivious to the situation and carnage around them.

    This is very visual, this is very very different ........
    One word....Bataclan....if that wasn't visual disturbing shocking outrageous etc etc etc, nothing is.
    You clearly haven't seen the videos. For some reason this is far far worse. I don't know why, but it is. These videos will go viral. They invoke violent rage in me. God knows what they will do to the French.

    Hollande is incapable of protecting the French. Get rid of him, and elect someone who can.
    I have seen them. They are horrific, but so was Bataclan.

    In terms of politics due to their system I am yet to be convinced they will do a brexit and go for le pen when they can have a right of centre politican (and the lefties will vote for them.in the run off to keep.the French Farage out)
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    If we are going full brexit, that directly contradicts May's other stated aim of keeping the union together. The worse brexit looks from a remainer's point of view, the more likely the scots will vote to leave. The question is, does May have much at stake in losing Scotland (beyond a sentimental attachment to the union)?

    Politically, is she better to go full brexit and risk scottish independence (if she stayed neutral in the campaign she maybe wouldn't have to resign when they vote to leave), or is she better to go for a brexit fudge EU lite relationship, and (try to) keep the scots on board?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
    This is different...I can see in the pictures many young people littering the street ...dead. Piled up.

    People injured and some walking past in total shock completely oblivious to the situation and carnage around them.

    This is very visual, this is very very different ........
    One word....Bataclan....if that wasn't visual disturbing shocking outrageous etc etc etc, nothing is.
    I know what you mean and can only agree but the Bataclan was inside the building and the visual was not that much but the horror of that event was without question.

    This horror though is piled high on the open French street the evidence is plain for all to see and that's why it is different.
  • Trowbridge, Grove (Ind defence) on Wiltshire LIB DEM GAIN
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,946

    Y Felinheli Gwynedd YytflYly

    Plaid 614
    Con 49


    Well, I guess we know why PC were unopposed last time.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650

    I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .

    Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,946

    Trowbridge, Grove (Ind defence) on Wiltshire LIB DEM GAIN

    Entirely expected - the much beloved former Ind candidate who passed away was a LD for 25 years, and the town council ward is LD as well (the town is LD controlled).
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited July 2016
    slade said:

    Just to confirm the local result on Tuesday in Shepton Mallet - Lib Dem 419, Con 283 - LD gain from Labour.

    During WW2 the US military prison was located there, and several US military personnel were executed there by hanging, carried out by Albert Pierrepoint.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,646

    MaxPB said:

    Awful. The French have to get a grip on terror.

    I am not sure that is fair in this case. I am really not clear how, short of banning all events where crowds gather, the French could actually prevent an attack of this sort. I am certainly not sure that we would do any better if a fanatic decided to drive an HGV into, for example, the crowds leaving a football match.
    Whatever strategy they are using to prevent terrorism and radicalisation isn't working. If anything it's getting worse. Honestly it's at times like these I'm glad we had grown ups in charge instead of virtue signalling fools who would have opened the nation up to potential terrorists. I'm sure Theresa will keep Dave's policy in refugee resettlement.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,406
    The other reason this is worse than Bataclan is that it makes it obvious that the only way to fight this is to eject the people who would commit such crimes. There's no way of fudging the issue.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    kle4 said:

    Trowbridge, Grove (Ind defence) on Wiltshire LIB DEM GAIN

    Entirely expected - the much beloved former Ind candidate who passed away was a LD for 25 years, and the town council ward is LD as well (the town is LD controlled).
    Sounds like a horrible place.
  • 13th July = Rail minister Claire Perry admits she's considered quitting over Southern Rail
    14th July = The fairy godmother that is Mrs May grants her wish.
    Good riddance.

    Thankfully earlier in the year, I already visited all the Southern stations out to Gatwick that were recently added to the London Oystercard network, as well as riding the entire Southern network outside London. Last bit I did was Barnham to Havant, Bedhampton to Cosham and Fareham to St Denys (Southampton).
    As our rail expert, what is the reason that the Southampton St Mary's platform area is not used to move football supporters in and out on match days?
    There's a big right turn into Southampton station before you get to the stadium - do you mean the stub line going straight ahead? I think the stub line is only used rarely if at all, due to track condition. Used to lead directly to the docks, so would have been used by boat trains, presumably.
    That is it. There is an underpass for foot passengers just off the platform which is frankly dangerous on match days and alternatives are required. Just no will to do anything. A Labour council currently. Needs elf and safety involved IMHO.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    John_M said:

    While we wait to hear what's happening in France (those poor people :( ), dug up a soft power index. UK 2nd behind US:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking/

    In what universe does Canada have more soft power than France?
    There was a survey on least popular countries a few years ago. In all of France's neighbours, France was the most unpopular.

    http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/the-french-admit-they-re-too-rude-to-tourists-1-3452406
    Even the French Canadians don't like the French, in my experience.
    Exciting canadian news from Reading. We now have a fish and chip shop that sells poutine!

    https://www.facebook.com/finnsfish
    Poutine is god's own food and it is a mystery as to why it's never caught on more widely, especially the UK as we love our chips and we love our gravy and we love our cheese.
    I sometimes follow US politics thru Tim Carney's articles/twitter feed. There's a state in the US (wisconsin?) where fried cheese curds is a convenience food. I must try this!
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Oh my god. The videos from Nice.

    This will cause savage reprisals. I cannot see how any nation can withstand this and continue to tolerate the enemy within.

    If I was French I would vote for Marine Le Pen tomorrow. Drive them OUT.

    Unfortunately we have this every time & nothing changes. In 2-3 weeks we will be hearing all about marginalised ethnic minority communities, worry about backlash etc etc etc.
    No. In the end a democratic people will REBEL and say no more. As the British did with Brexit.

    As days go by I am more and more convinced we did the right thing.
    Violent Jihad is being waged on Europe. We will need to play our part in defeating it, whether in or out of the EU.
    Like **** we should help the people who caused it.
    Ok I have an open mind.

    Help so how do we approach this and where? and with what and I suppose why?
  • Tim_B said:

    slade said:

    Just to confirm the local result on Tuesday in Shepton Mallet - Lib Dem 419, Con 283 - LD gain from Labour.

    During WW2 the US military prison was located there, and several US military personnel were executed there by hanging.
    Wins for Lib Dems in Wiltshire, Dorset and Somerset last few weeks - is the orange tide turning in the south west/
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650
    SeanT said:

    EPG said:

    I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .

    Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
    No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
    Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    If we are going full brexit, that directly contradicts May's other stated aim of keeping the union together. The worse brexit looks from a remainer's point of view, the more likely the scots will vote to leave. The question is, does May have much at stake in losing Scotland (beyond a sentimental attachment to the union)?

    Politically, is she better to go full brexit and risk scottish independence (if she stayed neutral in the campaign she maybe wouldn't have to resign when they vote to leave), or is she better to go for a brexit fudge EU lite relationship, and (try to) keep the scots on board?

    We have no true idea what the Scots would do.

    The vote the other week was about the UK, not Scotland. It's a different argument with iScot detached from the UK. Different numbers, different welfare and work arrangements, different currencies etc etc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,946
    edited July 2016

    kle4 said:

    Trowbridge, Grove (Ind defence) on Wiltshire LIB DEM GAIN

    Entirely expected - the much beloved former Ind candidate who passed away was a LD for 25 years, and the town council ward is LD as well (the town is LD controlled).
    Sounds like a horrible place.
    I was born there, so it cannot be all bad.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917

    If we are going full brexit, that directly contradicts May's other stated aim of keeping the union together. The worse brexit looks from a remainer's point of view, the more likely the scots will vote to leave. The question is, does May have much at stake in losing Scotland (beyond a sentimental attachment to the union)?

    Politically, is she better to go full brexit and risk scottish independence (if she stayed neutral in the campaign she maybe wouldn't have to resign when they vote to leave), or is she better to go for a brexit fudge EU lite relationship, and (try to) keep the scots on board?

    The Scots will have a straight choice: to stay in the UK or (possibly) in the EU. They will vote to stay in the UK. It's just a lot of noise at the moment, most of it coming out of Sturgeon's mouth.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,708

    The other reason this is worse than Bataclan is that it makes it obvious that the only way to fight this is to eject the people who would commit such crimes. There's no way of fudging the issue.

    Give it 3-4 week & certain people will be pushing a "fudge" reasoning. It happens every.time.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Trowbridge, Grove (Ind defence) on Wiltshire LIB DEM GAIN

    Entirely expected - the much beloved former Ind candidate who passed away was a LD for 25 years, and the town council ward is LD as well (the town is LD controlled).
    Sounds like a horrible place.
    I was born there, so it cannot be all bad.
    You have my sympathy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,946

    If we are going full brexit, that directly contradicts May's other stated aim of keeping the union together. The worse brexit looks from a remainer's point of view, the more likely the scots will vote to leave. The question is, does May have much at stake in losing Scotland (beyond a sentimental attachment to the union)?

    Politically, is she better to go full brexit and risk scottish independence (if she stayed neutral in the campaign she maybe wouldn't have to resign when they vote to leave), or is she better to go for a brexit fudge EU lite relationship, and (try to) keep the scots on board?

    The Scots will have a straight choice: to stay in the UK or (possibly) in the EU. They will vote to stay in the UK. It's just a lot of noise at the moment, most of it coming out of Sturgeon's mouth.
    I hope they do stay, but I'm a little worried that that slim chance is being snuffed out as May seems to be going for Hard Brexit.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,646
    EPG said:

    SeanT said:

    EPG said:

    I am choosing not to enter the dialogue on Nice. It is an inevitable event arising from the liberties and laws that our establishment chooses to operate. Arranged marriages, imported spouses, religous schools, rights and few responsibilities etc etc .

    Killing people has nothing to do with arranged marriages or religious schools or being married to foreigners. It is a crime, simple.
    No, but it has everything to do with Islam.
    Look, you are going off on one again about your desire to deport Muslim citizens of European countries. Tell it to an actual Muslim because telling it to PB is mostly not reaching your target audience.
    You're the reason why remain lost. Well people like you. Defending the indefensible. Tolerating intolerance. Virtue signalling.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited July 2016
    Newham

    Anamul Islam (Labour Party) 1,150
    Elisabeth Whitebread (The Green Party) 681
    John Oxley (Conservative Party) 301
    James Rumsby (Liberal Democrats) 57

This discussion has been closed.